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Posted by: KitCarlson Feb 11 2004, 04:21 PM

Hey,

I know this question has a difficult answer. I would like to know a ball park number of EMS units to build in the first release. I need to order the mechanical parts and work with a contract manufacturer for the board build. Setup costs can be a significant cost for small orders. Lead time is also a concern.

Why is this question difficult? You are being asked to suggest to me your potential interest without knowing the exact cost or performance of the system.

The beta test unit is not yet in operation due to Brad's move. It was my hope to have un-biased tests in progress at this time. I have been working on the system full time since the start in October. The next step is to be production ready.

For those wondering what is the EMS. It is an engine management system that provides direct ignition, fuel, idle, and turbo boost control for VW and Porsche engines. It uses a special optical distributor sensor means to avoid the mechanical difficulties in crank/cam sensors. The ignition timing is electronic. The unit provides an easy upgrade for the D-Jetronic or L-Jetronic systems. The system will be sold turn-key with all parts and harness.
For more information please visit: http://home.mindspring.com/~dave.c/kitcarlson/

Please use a personal message to suggest your interest. I will answer questions you may have.

I really appreciate this BB that works to unite all 914 owners, and a means to conduct this poll.

Kit

Posted by: Mueller Feb 11 2004, 04:41 PM

Tough call.....I know there is a market for it and it will sell as long as the price and ease of use is within reason for the average DIY person and or shop. Not many will want to buy this if they have to take it to a shop and pay $500 or more for installation due to it not being plug-n-play.


If you are trying to target the 911 or 914/6 crowd, it'll be much tougher since more than likely they have carbs or MFI or CIS. None of these systems are as easy to convert to EFI as much as the L-Jet and D-jet are.

Can you offer a discount for a pre-order to help finance the process?

Posted by: KitCarlson Feb 11 2004, 05:30 PM

Mueller,

You have good comments.

The system will be turn-key, and simpler than the D and L-jet's. The cold start system, FI points, rotor, and mechanical advance parts are gone. The 2 screws on the TPS, distributor nut, unit mounting, and harness hook-up is nearly all that is required for install. I am sticking with the 4-cylinders for now. Other engines are possible. I will do the application work, one engine/car at a time.

The wiring harness plays a large part in the ease installation. I missed the boat by not sending a completed harness on the beta unit. In production, the harness will be out-sourced to an expert.

If the initial quantity is greater than 25 units, the discount per unit could be ~$50.

Kit

Posted by: Targa Feb 11 2004, 06:00 PM

Mueller is on the money! It WILL have to be competative to the price of changing your 914 from FI to Carbs. I'm interested assuming it can be used with a different cam and can support more than 160 horsepower minimum. What is the ETA? I want my car back on the road with lots more power with D-Jet no later than June. Otherwise, I will find some Dells as I'm smog exempt

Posted by: ThinAir914 Feb 11 2004, 06:18 PM

I'm interested - eventually. Unfortunately I can't give a timetable, but I've got a 1975 VW Bus with a 1979 2.0L FI engine in it that I think is a very good candidate since it's getting really crappy mileage (even for a Bus). I'd have to see more info and real pricing to know for sure.

Posted by: KitCarlson Feb 11 2004, 06:31 PM

Targa,

160 HP with stock injectors should not be a problem. The stock D-jet is limited in injector duration due to the FI point setup and the way the analog control works, injector overlap is not possible.

The KitCarlson EMS does not have this injector duration limitation. The 2.0L injectors flow 380 cc/min and are capable of ~ 75HP each or ~300 HP total.

The cam should not be a problem, an alpha-N mix is possible. Also the sampling means for pressure measuring is quite advanced. Not giving away secrets.

Comparing the EMS to just carbs, does not include the added benefits of the direct fire ignition, and optional idle and turbo boost control.

The starting, drivability, and tunability of the EMS excels over carbs. That's what fuel injection is about. The ability to control mixture with temperature, baro and other operating parameters.

Kit

Posted by: 94teener Feb 11 2004, 06:50 PM

If the system will work with supercharger boost, I would be very interested in
buying one.

Phil

Posted by: Targa Feb 11 2004, 06:54 PM

Kit,

Thanks for your thorough and prompt answers. Do you have an idea of when these will be ready and possibly a rough ballpark estimate on cost? I know what fuel injection is all about and would prefer to keep it. I did not mean just carbs. I was referring to everything(carbs, linkage, manifolds, fuel pump, etc.). I would not expect it to be cheaper but definitely competative.

Varik

Posted by: Mark Henry Feb 11 2004, 07:00 PM

Whatever the number of people who say they want one, take that figure and divide it by half.
At least that seems to be the case with group buys.

Good Luck!

Posted by: nebreitling Feb 11 2004, 07:39 PM

i'm certainly interested, my main factors are

1. price (i'm not super-cheap, just in grad school)
2. ease of installation (can i do this on a saturday?)
3. out of the box tunability (plug n play)
4. expandability (to support, e.g., a hot 2056 or 2270)

you've already touched on most of these issues, just giving you a sense of my decision criteria. i can't commit to one right now, but with a little "heads-up" and clarification on the above, i'd be interested as soon as this summer.

and btw, congrats and thanks for your work on our cars!

nathan

Posted by: KitCarlson Feb 11 2004, 07:41 PM

Phil,
Yes there is a EMS version for boost applications. It involves a different part # for the internal MAP sensor.
Kit

Posted by: Brad Roberts Feb 11 2004, 07:48 PM

Electricity was turned on TODAY. I can now start working in the shop next door on the welding I need to finish. The engine is ready to go back into the car as soon as I finish the welding. 90% of everything is moved. Sorry for the delay. The move was somewhat unexpected. We have a nice new 4 gas analyzer that will help me tune it as well as access to a loadable rolling road dyno down the street.

Everything I see so far looks real good. I think the system will be VERY easy to install and we should have several base maps available for download to get just about any combo running safely.


B

Posted by: tracks914 Feb 11 2004, 08:48 PM

Forgive my ignorance but what is the point of this EMS.
Is it to replace failed factory units?
Is it to upgrade larger displacement engines but still use FI?
Is to tweek and outperform carbs?
Is it to improve drivability on stock and oversize engines?

Is it adjustable?
Tx
Doug

Posted by: JoshuaSkinner Feb 11 2004, 09:14 PM

I'm interested as I want to turbo the 1.8 in my '75. The engine right now is bone stock with adequate L-Jet injection. The only driveability problem is when it's dead cold it doesn't want to run below 3k RPM.

What I would like to know is if your system will support an auxillary PWM output to drive an extra injector or injectors for water injection. And like the others, I want to know the cost.

Oh, will the system also drive multiple ignition coils for direct ignition? How about coil on plug? I have to ask as I have a Subaru EJ20T engine and transaxle for a 914 swap. Probably won't go into this car unless I blow up the 1.8.

Joshua Skinner
Portland, Oregon

Posted by: RD Evans Feb 11 2004, 09:37 PM

I am very interest in a system to replace a single carb on my 1.8. I've been considering a MegaSquirt project but really don't have time to learn the system and build it. It's really hard to say how serious I would be until there are more details and pricing information.

Posted by: KitCarlson Feb 11 2004, 10:49 PM

I will try to provide as many answers as possible to the question in the previous posts.

All, The turn-key system includes the EMS unit, application software, TPS and adapters, distibutor setup with core charge, ignition quad coil, wiring harnness, and plug wires. I am hesitant to release suggested cost, till I have a handle on the contract assembly and the harness cost. There will be a reasonable mark-up to fund development, operating expenses and profit.

Doug, Yes to all your questions.

Joshua, PWM is possible on the idle control valve output. The ignition system drives 2 coils (quad terminal coil) for a waste fire direct ignition. There is also a spare relay driver for general purpose use. Additional software development required depending on your application. The system has a bootloader for software updates.

Brad, Electricity is a good thing. Thanx for the update.

Kit

Posted by: Andyrew Feb 11 2004, 10:57 PM

How much$?

I didnt see it anywhere, and most people would want to know before they jump on something like this..

Andrew

Posted by: Bleyseng Feb 11 2004, 11:07 PM

I too was wondering how much, I thought maybe my ole eyes just kept missing the important facts.

The idea that it supports a wilder cam sounds good, how wild can we go?
What is the rev limits?
Turbo! You know you can't turbo a 914!
If it does support a turbo, what boost control does it support? Boost limits?

If its $500 I might toss out the trusty Djet just so I can use a laptop while driving to be just a cool as Dave Hunt.

Geoff

Posted by: Air_Cooled_Nut Feb 11 2004, 11:07 PM

Kit,
I'm looking for a FI system for my VW (this is how she currently looks):

I really don't like carbs and would LOVE to go to FI, it's just the cost has been keeping me back (well, and lack of a job for over a year until last week ). I know there's a very big market in the VW world for you to sell to I'm comfy with FI so wiring isn't a big issue for me, it's just finding all the necessary parts and calibrating everything. I see you used a Palm (from your web site) so can other PDA's be used like my Handspring Prism Visor? Or would it strictly be a laptop?

One day, it would be nice to afford a turbo system so I could give my Porsche the proper power its namesake deserves and including FI would be soooo much nicer for me!

Posted by: Bleyseng Feb 11 2004, 11:14 PM

Hmm, my 64 Squareback had duals on it, and my 69 fastback had the Djet. Dual Webbers looks good but I still love the FI.

Geoff

Posted by: Jeff Bowlsby Feb 12 2004, 12:03 AM

Sounds like I'll be building KitCarlson EMS FI harnesses very soon...

Posted by: ChrisReale Feb 12 2004, 12:25 AM

YES!

Posted by: Racer Chris Feb 12 2004, 12:34 AM

If the control unit can be made to fit in the factory case your EMS would have application in SCCA racing as well.

Posted by: bernbomb914 Feb 12 2004, 12:45 AM

I would be interested in buying your product now as I need to buy some carbs now for my 2270 engine and I would like to put F I on it .

Bernie

Posted by: kdfoust Feb 12 2004, 01:56 AM

Kit;

I'm pretty excited about this kit because:
1) I'm into PCA AX. In my zone switching to carbs adds 7 points to my classification whereas changing to FI/CIS controller is only 4 points.
2) Carbs are archaic and don't interest me at all (stow the flames that's just my view).
3) No interest in twiddling a soldering iron and hacking a wiring harness to build a megasquirt system.
4) Flexible mapping makes it sound like I can run a nice rowdy cam and still have FI.

So when can I get one? I'm building the engine right now and am looking at buying a Djet harness and still sorting out the cam decision.

When?

Posted by: KitCarlson Feb 12 2004, 08:40 AM

More answers:

The EMS Kit will cost more than $500, and most likely be less than $2000.

The turbo MAP option upper limit is 36.3psi (about 2.5bar). The normally aspirated MAP limit is 16.7psi. I am working with a guy developing a turbo kit for 914's, it will use the EMS.

RPM limit with full ignition energy is estimated at 10,000 rpm.

The EMS unit is very small, 6 units might fit in the D-Jet box.

How wild of cam works with carbs? I can only guess the EMS will do better, with smoother and lower idle RPM, better throttle response.

Jeff builds great harnesses!

Kit

Posted by: KitCarlson Feb 12 2004, 10:09 AM

On the EMS communications:

This may only make sense to a few EE's.

The communications in the beta unit is done with a VT100 terminal commands. Terminal programs are available on Palm computers and PC's. Dumb and simple.

Recent developments are moving in the direction of Modbus protocol, with a graphical user interface (GUI)application. This application most likely will require a PC or PocketPC.

The capability of the applications will, lead the market in the ability to visualize and revise settings, collect data and monitor real time information. Two experinced programmers are making great progress as we post. One working on the EMS firmware, the other on the application.

Kit

Posted by: Hi_Fi_Guy Feb 12 2004, 11:56 AM

I have a RAT 2270 and would be VERY interested.

With the carbs tuned for best performance and driving it is currently not able to pass AZ smog. This is also due in part to the mechanical point ignition. Your set-up sounds ideal if there was some way to kick-in a map to pass the smog test and then some way to reset the map to best drivability I would be happy.

I think a lot of people on this board are being unrealistic about price. A good set of Webbers or Dells , manifold, linkage, etc. will cost at least $800-$900 plus $75-$175 for a Bosch distributor. So in my mind the competitive price point would be around a grand. An FI system that is quality and is competitively priced with a good carb set-up would most likely sway many people who get stuck buying carbs because they do not want to shell out $3k-$5k for a hi-end FI system.

If you can bring it in at a grand or less it should sell to enthusiast and to engine builders.

Posted by: Air_Cooled_Nut Feb 12 2004, 03:33 PM

From the sounds of it, you would simply download the data to the FI system for your smog test. Pass the test, drive 1/2 mile from the DEQ center, plug in the laptop and download YOUR data

I've consistantly seen good, used carbs go for 1/2 the price you're talking about (four banger versions, that is). I don't care what kind of hype is behind a system, if it's too expensive it's too expensive. I, and many other owners, simply have these cars for a hobby (something that consumes more money than it returns) or as a daily driver that needs to be bullet-proof and as such it still comes down to acceptable price. I've been eyeing MegaSquirt simply because it's below the $1000 mark. CB Performance has a very simple system and they want over $1500 (personally, for what you get it's waaay overpriced).

Posted by: seanery Feb 12 2004, 03:41 PM

Hey everyone, if you think 2k is overpriced then price out a system from electromotive. This sounds like a nice kit. Air_Cooled_Nut...you're scenario makes the system worthwhile for some folks (smog). The ability to stick in some radical cam and still run fuel injection with spark control in a type 4 sounds sweet. If I wasnt going for a big 6 I'd be all over one of these.

Posted by: DuckRyder Feb 12 2004, 05:28 PM

Here is my view on pricing.

I think it can cost more than a set of carbs and still sell but not by much. I'd like it even better if it was just the ECU with a non mechanical trigger for the injectors.

Posted by: Mark Henry Feb 12 2004, 05:36 PM

Both seanery AND Air_Cooled_Nut are correct about the price.
The system may be worth $2000 but you are entering the realm of competing against several other established systems.

A small percentage of 914 owners with a big budget are just going to do a 6.

Another group will spring for $2000.

BUT a large number of 914 and especially VW owners are cheap bastards and will go for something cheaper.
(No offence, I'm a cheap bastard at times as well)

In three months my SDS group buy (last year) I only sold 7 systems, my system with programmable ignition cost me $1226. with a 20% group buy discount. (5 turbo T1 bugs, one dual plug 911, and me the lone 914).

SO

1/You are going to have to sharpen your pencil and get a finalized price, as you will never get an accurate number of how many people are really interested in your system without a price tag.

2/ You may have to lower your price on the first few systems to get your system established.

3/I bet in short order you will have to sell a universal system for any engine, to be profitable.

Posted by: Cloudbuster Feb 12 2004, 05:45 PM

Kit,

A not so hypothetical scenario:

I've got a running '75 L-Jet 1.8L. I want to replace the stock FI (to eventually go to 2270cc or more). Do I need to source & buy any other intake / FI parts, or all all parts included with your EMS for a plug'n'play system? It is a simple swap of brain, injector wiring, and distributor with supplied parts?

If it is a remove X, install supplied Y proposition, $1K or more doesn't sound so bad to me.

Posted by: KitCarlson Feb 12 2004, 07:47 PM

Cloudbuster,
Yes, swap parts, replace vane air meter with a tube you will be all set.

DuckyRider,
Please clarify "non-mechanical trigger for injectors". The ems unit is all solid state.

Mark Henry,
I realize this group is small and conservative. Plans include developing the EMS application to other engines. The electronics supports this. It is mainly an issue of software and harness development. It is possible to use the OEM crank and cam sensors. I am a car nut and have many makes to develop with.

Kit

Posted by: DuckRyder Feb 12 2004, 08:00 PM

Sure, I understood it was. What I mean is that I'd like a FI only type system that would retain the distributor and stock coil, only replacing the D-Jet trigger points with a solid state of some sort.

I guess what I'd like to see is modern replacements of the d jet components.

Posted by: Carrera916 Feb 12 2004, 11:44 PM

Kit,

After reading this thread and your website a bit, I'm only sorry for myself for not doing something like this, but hell, it's nice to see someone like yourself jump ahead of me...meaning? it sure save me a lot of time (very young family keeps tied me down) and money for development work (I'm too poor!)....I would definately buy yours when it's ready since I personally would rather use the FI over carbs for it's great driveability (but I also realllllly like the looks of good ole Weber sticking its 'finger' upward to the ones looking down)....

As for the cost, I respect your needs to be able to cover your development time and manufacture cost.....I have a suggestion that may give you an idea or a way to build your 'reputation' of great stuff....how about start a basic system that just meet the function/needs to run the engine as much as the current stock set up but far better than the stock set up. Then from there, if someone wants to have more flexiability with your unit, they can buy an upgrade that's DIY installation or have it upgrade done by you/your company, that would give everyone a choice of EMS unit to meet their needs with the according prices right there.

If you could come up with a DIY kit where one can build it for the sake of lower price and maybe a limit warranty VS to a complete kit from you, I would jump at that since I'm very capable to make my own as well for others. It's just an idea for you to see what the market is like. I would have to agree to others that posted above me, you do have a market for it, almost all FI 4 cylinder engines that Porsche and VW have made, would greatly benefit from your unit and from there, if you're good and everything is peachy with the system, you CAN expand to other engine makes (that suffered from crapy factory ignition/FI design) very easily.....so GO FOR IT!!!

Oh, Kit, hurry up with that so I can actually spend the money toward your unit before I have to buy all the crapy designed FI/ignition parts to get my engine up and running BEFORE June....the 914 gathering!

jerry

Posted by: KitCarlson Feb 13 2004, 09:40 AM

Exactly what the KitCarlson EMS is, solid state pressure sensor replacing MPS, resistive TPS replacing throttle switch, digital uC replacing the analog brain, elimination of cold start valve: FI points, time temperature delay switches, ignition points, rotor, vacuum advance unit, and advance mechanism. In my mind exactly what is required for a modern tunable system.

Carrera916,
Here is my life's story:
I started working with electronics at age 7 (42 years ago). At 16 I developed a working optical CDI ignition from scratch for a 1966 Dodge Coronet. I had to develop all of this without my parents knowing it. You were only to fix something when it was broke.
I graduated from high school, and went to find a university. I explained to several professors what I had done and the response was, "the auto makers will never replace the 50 cent points!". I built the ignition to solve a ping problem on a cylinder or two on a +100,000 engine. The wobble of the distributor cam changed timing an a cylinder or two. The optical sensor eliminated the problem. In and out wobble varies the point gap and timing, but not on an optical trigger.

I have spent the last 27 years developing industrial electronics. This work involved measurement systems, uC, and software programming as well as project management. I have done many things that have not made sense due to management interventions. I still managed to make things very profitable for my employers.

I spent my weekends and evening on my therapy projects
It took me a while to get going. I have been working on this EFI since 1997. I first developed a board with a 68HC912, the chip prior to the HC908 used in the Mega-Squirt. It was very similar in design to the present Mega-Squirt. The 68HC912 was an ill fated controller, never met all the sales hype. I never tested the system on an engine.
I started working with a new line of AVR uC's and found that it was easy to implement my ideas in hardware and software. I built some basic electronics to bench test my ideas, make sparks and developed code. I had a hard time making the jump, to try it on an engine. When the key was turned and the engine started and ran well, I was completely blown away. Why didn't I do it sooner? Well, I might not have been completely ready.

I am poor too. I work with junk engines, eat beans, and love my work. I have a supportive wife and dog.

I have built the right system to replace the D-Jet. It runs great!, all the time. Much simpler and adjustable, and provides significant real-time information.

I need to release more information to help in the understanding of how it connects and works. It is also a good design for universal fuel injection and ignition. There are several unreleased features that will completely take the high-end market, with the use of multiple units.

Kit

Posted by: rhodyguy Feb 13 2004, 09:55 AM

what is the "tube" that replaces the "vane"? as things progress with chris's car please have a comprehensive thread with pictures entered in the classic thread forum. maybe a picture of the items that are deleted and the new components side by side. very important for those with l-jet.

kevin

Posted by: Bleyseng Feb 13 2004, 10:05 AM

Kevin, he states that it uses a electronic pressure sensor, resistive TPS, New ECU
so these would replace all the Ljet stuff too making it a speed density FI (Djet). Should have better throttle response than the Ljet.

Does it have a O2 sensor?

Sounds good to me, just depends on price of course. Between $500 to $750 would be great! More than that and it becomes a harder sell for me, hey, maybe Brad can organize a Group Buy!


Geoff

Posted by: rhodyguy Feb 13 2004, 10:14 AM

so the monster air filter box goes away? i still have all the d-jet stuff on my spare 2.0. when dave and i were at marks place a couple of saturdays ago we noticed thier 5 series cars used a setup similar to the l-jet. perhaps there's a maket for those cars too.

kevin

Posted by: darisb Feb 13 2004, 10:26 AM

Kit,

I've been watching your project, with interest, for some time now. It looks like an ideal replacement for the D-Jet. I have a 74 2.0 and an extra 2.0 engine tucked away, waiting for the right time to drag it out and restore it (other projects not withstanding).

My philosophy is that I will pay a far price for a quality product. I usually opt for an fair balance of performance and value. I like to see a guy make a buck and stay in business. I usually do not opt for the high end, high dollar solutions.

I've been looking at the CB Performance kit for a while. It seems like the pricing is similar. Their kit includes new throttle bodies and hardware, but their ECU seems less adjustable.

It will be interesting to see how this project turns out.

Regards,
Daris

Posted by: Mueller Feb 13 2004, 10:40 AM

Becareful with "universal" kit's, that normally means tons of fabrication, time and money will be needed to finish the installation

I know you cannot have a kit for every single make and model car out there, but if you can come out with just a few at a time, you're going to be famous for giving the market what it needs and wants.

I thought about buying and building a few Megasquirts and making a true bolt-on kit, but I like your approach much better. Even thou the MS is a proven design and product, it will always have a slight stigma due to it being a DIY solder-sniffing-stuff-a-bare-board-approach.

Even the guy on eBay that is assembling them and selling it getting chastised by a few since some folks think he is making money off of a public or shared device and idea. He's being honest and is providing a service, but there are stupid/closed minded people that don't understand that.

Now back to your EMS, if there is anything I can do to help out, let me know, I'm not too up on electronics except for knowing that the best way to test a 9vdc battery is to stick it on my tongue.

Oh, for the L-jet guys...no more flapper box between the throttle body and the aircleaner, so I think the best way to do that is to get the aircleaner assembly from a 1.7(?)

Posted by: rhodyguy Feb 13 2004, 10:50 AM

maybe just some pvc pipe and a cone filter?

kevin

Posted by: mike_the_man Feb 13 2004, 10:59 AM

One thing I was wondering about; What type of support or warranty do you plan to offer? It's not a real big deal to me, I'm just curious if you've thought about that? So far, I love the sounds of this system. Getting rid of the MPS is something I've thought about many times. It sounds like your system will do everything that I would want. For me, it now comes down to price. Once you have a price in mind let us know. If it's reasonable, I'd say that I'm in for one.

Posted by: KitCarlson Feb 13 2004, 11:07 AM

Sorry could not include Word Document drawing of connectors.

EMSII Connections
Connection Glossary:

IGB: Ignition “B” Sink for cylinders 2 & 4
IGG: Ignition Ground, connect to ground at battery
MR: Master Relay Sink
MFG: Master Relay / Fuel Pump Ground, connect at battery ground
FP: Fuel Pump Relay Sink
ICV: Idle Control Valve Sink
FIB: Fuel Injector “B” Sink for cylinders 2 & 4
O2: O2 Sensor Connection
CHT: Cylinder Head Temperature Sensor connection
TSS Throttle Position Sensor Supply Connect to TPS (Orange) wire
TPS: Throttle Position Input connect to TPS (Green) wire
TVS: Timing Sensor Supply, connect to red wire of Distributor Sensor cable
TSA: Timing Sensor “A” (TDC) connect to (Green) wire of Distributor Sensor cable
ST: Start Switch connection to starter connection on solenoid or ignition switch
+14V: Connect to Ignition Switch “Ignition Supply”
RXD: Serial Receive connect to pin 3 of DB9 connector
IGA: Ignition “B” Sink for cylinders 2 & 4
IGG: Ignition Ground, connect to ground at battery
TAC: Tach to tachometer
IND: Indicator Sink
ICG: Idle Control Valve Ground, connect to ground at battery
FIG: Fuel Injector Ground, connect to ground at battery
FIA: Fuel Injector “A” Sink for cylinders 1 & 3
CGN: Charge Air Temperature Ground connect to Temperature Sensor
CAT: Charge Air Temperature, connect to temperature sensor
TGN: Throttle Sensor Ground, connect to black wire of sensor
AUX: Auxiliary Analog Input (0-5V)
TSB: Timing Sensor “B” (BDC) connect to (White) wire of Distributor Sensor cable
PGN: Power Ground, connect to ground at battery
XGN: Serial ground connect to pin 5 of DB9 connector
TXD: Serial transmit, connect to pin 2 of DB9 connecto

MAP: Connect to intake manifold plenum port, not Throttle body port

Please visit my website. It shows what is added and what is removed for a D-Jet upgrade.
http://home.mindspring.com/~dave.c/kitcarlson/

Yes on L-Jet conversion PVC and cone filter to replace vane meter. Also need to add air temperature sensor to intake, use D-jet sensor.

Kit

Posted by: DNHunt Feb 13 2004, 11:57 AM

I don't know if this would help but I've considered this as a way to implement installation.

First target a specific car and it's followers. You've already chosen 914's
Second target a certain region, Bay area, Midwest, etc
Take orders for a specific area. When you have enough orders deliver them in person with all the recipients and their cars at a garage. Be prepared for different installations with the appropriate parts for each car. Setup and program all the cars at the same time. Have an installation party.
Eventually target different models and train installers for the different cars.

The people get a great product with hands on support and a real sense of participation without requireing great expertise. People who are more qualified at each get together will help others and after doing 1 or 2 cars they'll do it themselves with your supervision. They'll be telling their friends about this great new product that the developer installed on their car.

I kind of hate to bring it up but Tupperware has made a great success out of this model.

Posted by: crash914 Feb 13 2004, 12:08 PM

Check out these throttle bodies......Now I have a solution to "you have to run carbs"

A fuel injected carb!!!



The Performance Parts Warehouse
4 Aerial Way Syosset, NY 11791
Fax 310-538-2779

800-654-2778
Contact Us


IDF Throttle Bodies


98990.520 Cast 45 IDF left
2 inj, single body kit with, rails, levers, O-rings


98990.521Cast 45 IDF right

2 inj, single body kit with, rails, levers, O-rings


98050.520 Cast 48 IDF left

2 inj, single body kit with, rails, levers, O-rings


98050.521 Cast 48 IDF right

2 inj, single body kit with, rails, levers, O-rings


Attached image(s)

Posted by: rhodyguy Feb 13 2004, 12:45 PM

you know what? you still have to dial in the linkage. misadjusted and it will run just as crappy as done wrong carbs. i bet it doesn't come with a throttle cable holder, just like their linkages. unless things have changed, you need very specific engine build numbers/hp figures. i talked to guy at a vw show/swap that was running them. he told me they snapped and poped just like a bad carb install. like "never again a dropped seat", things look great in print.

kevin

Posted by: Air_Cooled_Nut Feb 13 2004, 12:56 PM

CB Performance has the same stuff. Yeah, everything about linkage and adjustment One throttle body is the way to go for simplicity and price

Posted by: Air_Cooled_Nut Feb 13 2004, 12:58 PM

This would be a good idea for a larger market, like VW's. There simply ain't enough 914's, and even fewer by region. And many of the cars are undriveable (racers, repair work being done, etc.).

Posted by: cha914 Feb 13 2004, 01:36 PM

Sounds like a great system...but for us carb guys that have never had the pleasure of dealing with the stock FI...if I wanted to convert to your system what pieces and parts from the original D-Jet would I need to be operational? and maybe a ballpark on what those would cost ?

Also, are you planning on gathering a library of common engine config baseline maps, that would help people get started? If so, how much dyno time do you estimate it would require to really fine tune the system?

Thanks,

Tony

Posted by: KitCarlson Feb 13 2004, 02:12 PM

Cha914,
You will need D-jet intakes, injectors, throttle body, fuel pressure regulator, fuel pump, temperature sensors, 009 distributor as core.

Warranty Support:
A wiring harness goes a long way to avoid damage by incorrect hookups. My record is exceptional for reliabilty of industrial products. In the event a unit fails not including incorrect installation or misuse, the unit will be repaired or replaced.

I plan to help a few first time installers, and a select few engine/car builders.

Kit

Posted by: KitCarlson Feb 15 2004, 09:37 AM

All,

Thanks for all the good comments and advice.
I realize the demand from the 914 market will be small at first. I expect word of mouth by those first few users will quickly help sell to others.

It will also be necessary to tap the VW market. The type3 crowd, first to replace the D-jets. Then the type4 bus market.

The VW type1 market requires the rare injector manifolds, and throttle body available on 1975+ FI bugs, or parts from late Mex. beetles or custom manifolds. The individual throttle approach, will work, however may not provide the best cost/benefit ratio.

It is time for me to take some additional financial risks, meet with the contract mfgs. about assembly costs on volumes larger than the very few, I can sell at first. I will have to maintain the cost of additional inventory and full reels of build parts.

Within a month, if successful, I will release the retail price of the EMS kit(s), less wiring harness cost.
There will be planned group installs. Once in production I have some time to attend shows and swap meet to demonstate and sell, and install systems. I will start local, then venture out.

There might be a FI only unit, that will not require the distributor modification. My guess is cost will be only be about $200 less. No electronic timing, or efficient high energy spark capability.

I also expect to continue with value added software applications for data loging and setup capabilities. The units are also capable of future software upgrades.

I have also consided the development of graphical electronic instrument panel with data collection capability, to be used with the EMS, however the sales volume will suggest if this will happen.

Kit

Posted by: F4i Feb 15 2004, 10:49 AM

I too am very interested in your kit. I am also impressed with your ability to asses what we(914 crowd) needs. I am sure the financial risk will be minimal. By stocking more and lowering costs you will be able to sell more units. I do feel that a full kit would be the way to go. Would the kit without the spark control be upgradeable to one with? If not then I would want a full kit. Keep up the good work.

Posted by: KitCarlson Feb 15 2004, 01:15 PM

F4i,
I have thought about the upgrade of the FI to full EMS, buying complete will cost less. For future upgrades certain parts will have to be installed on the FI unit and not used, there will also be an additional inline sensor that conditions ignition signals for use for sync of the fuel injection. What is saved in FI only, is the quad coil, distributor and some wiring.

The optimal dwell control, and the ability to alter timing maps, and the elimination of the rotor are the main reasons to go with the complete system.

Here is more for info for the technical curious:

The dual coil (quad terminal) arrangement creates more spark energy more efficiently than a conventional single coil ignition. With a conventional system, the dwell time is a certain number of degrees, 48 for example. When the engine revolves slow at idle the 48 degrees is a long period of time, wasting energy and at high rpm it is very short, resulting in the coil not being completely charged. The coil takes a finite period of time to charge depending on coil inductance, battery voltage and series resistance. The EMS takes all of this into account and fully charges the coils for each ignition event. The two coils allow overlap of charging, and greater RPM potential not possible with the single coil. The EMS ignition eliminates the rotor and distributor function of the distributor cap.

The stock distributor cap with close spacing and lack of internal ribs is a problem area when a more powerful CDI or ignition is fitted. The EMS direct-fire approach, coil to plug arrangement is the way to go. Some have wondered why not coil-on-plug? There is an economy in using the quad coil arrangement, less power drivers, less coils and wiring. Heat is also an issue at the plug for air cooled engines. Coils and heat do not go well together for long term reliability. Otherwise the advantage of the coil-on-plug, is to eliminate the high tension wires.

Kit

Posted by: Mark Henry Feb 15 2004, 01:32 PM

So I take it this is a wasted spark system. (NOT that wasted spark is a problem, it's totally OK)

Is it sequential or batch fired on the FI?

Posted by: KitCarlson Feb 15 2004, 01:57 PM

Mark,

Yes, the system is a waste fire. 1 & 3 in series fire @ TDC, and 2 & 4 in series fire @ BDC. A tach out provides the software sum of events to drive the standard tach. The EMS also reports very accurate crystal based RPM measurements, it can be used to check tachs.

The fuel injection is in two banks, like the D-Jet, however, the duration can overlap, yielding greater duration than on the D-jet. More duration for larger engines, turbo's ... It could be called semi-sequential.

Kit

Posted by: bernbomb914 Feb 15 2004, 07:44 PM

What would be better D jet or L jet systems I have both and there are a lot of Ljets out there?

Bernie

Posted by: KitCarlson Feb 16 2004, 08:06 AM

Bernie,

The D-jet does not require the tube to replace the L-Jet air vane meter, nor the additon of the intake air temperature sensor.

The type1 L-jet I have has high impedance injectors (16 ohms) they will not require the injector resistor block. Not sure on the 914 1.8L.

Dave

Posted by: Mark Henry Feb 16 2004, 08:25 AM

The T1 does have a resistor block unless someone swapped out the injectors. (also it may have changed over the years, don't know)

My old 914 1.8 L-jet did have a resistor block as well.

Posted by: Rob Ways Feb 16 2004, 08:39 AM

Very interesting thread.

For the non-technical minded, what does the improved firing ranges accomplish? HP? What are some of the side effects? ie heat, wear, etc.

Posted by: KitCarlson Feb 16 2004, 08:51 AM

Mark,

The resistor block is required to reduce the current on the low impedance (2.3 ohms) injectors. If the injectors are high impedance (16 ohms) the resistor block was used to help minimize variations of the battery voltage on injector open time. To be sure of the injector impedance, resistance can be measured with an ohm meter. It is also possible to use a driver, signal generator, scope, current shunt, and power supply to measure injector open time. The small change in inductance as the pintle moves can be viewed as a notch in the current waveform.

The KitCarlson EMS measures battery voltage, and compensates the injector time to eliminate variation of fuel delivery. Battery voltage is also a real-time item displayed on the communications interface. A similar compensation is done for the ignition coil charge timing (dwell).

Kit

Posted by: KitCarlson Feb 16 2004, 09:13 AM

cavwpguy,
I assume the increased fire range is the in the ignition and fuel control.
For the ignition the coil charge duration should be sufficient to fully charge the coil prior to an ignition event. If the coil is over charged the coil hits saturation, current is limited by resistance in the circuit. Energy is wasted. This occurs at idle and low speed operation. At higher engine speeds the coil is under charged, resulting is less spark energy and potential misfires. The engine variation 900 rpm to 5600, is approximately 6x change in speed (time) however the dwell optimally should be nearly constant. For stock use, conventional systems work, and most do not feel or notice the difference. An 8 cylinder engine has a much greater problen than on a 4. 2x more sparks for same RPM.

On the fuel, for stock applications sufficient fuel exists. For higher HP requirements more fuel is available as required.
Kit

Posted by: Dominic Feb 16 2004, 12:04 PM

Here is a reasonable stand alone programmable engine management solution....

http://www.perfectpower.com/products/prs.asp

I'll be installing it on my 914 by the end of the year, but my car will not be in the stock D-jet F.I. configuration. I'm going to run Throttle Bodies and a crank fired ignition.

Just my $.02 on the CB performance TB set-up.....Its Junk, spend your money on a stand alone (programmable) engine management system and some Throttle Bodies from Jenvey or TWM. Trust me, You can thank me later.

Posted by: F4i Feb 16 2004, 12:12 PM

Dominic
what are the costs for a setup like this on a 914
Kit
how does your setup compare to this one.

Posted by: Mark Henry Feb 16 2004, 01:01 PM

Dominic, this is Kits thread and he's trying to make the best 914 replacment system available. So you might want to start your own thead, on the costs and merits of the other systems.
I'm not trying to be a dick, just he's putting a lot of effort into making this work.

Dylan, with the install of all the other systems the crank-fire set-up is a total bitch. It took me a weekend to fab mine and I have a fairly complete machine shop. I'm still not 100% happy with it and may do it over.
Any other system, if you don't have a shop, the crank-fire mount WILL cost you extra!
It's custom so most shops will charge you by the hour!

Posted by: F4i Feb 16 2004, 01:25 PM

I was mostly wondering for cost comparison. I am most interested in Kits product and I enjoy supporting an entrepenure. You do bring up a good point about the crank fire. Most people are shying away from it. How do you like the sds as I said before the guys shop is a stones throw from my work. I have been there. I ask only because I would like to see the benifit of such a system. Not to steal kits thunder.

Posted by: Gary Feb 16 2004, 02:10 PM

Kit,

Depending on the price point, I'll likely be in the market for one for -6 in the next half year or year. I'm gonna get my -6 converted car back in the next couple months. It's currently a carbed 2.7L built closely according to the specs in Bruce Anderson's book: E cams and heads RS P/C's, 8.5:1 CR. Carbed it's supposed to be good for about 210HP. I have a carerra manifold, and am still looking for the TB (seem to be rare as hen's teeth). I was gonna go with a megasquirt, but we'll see if you're ready to go past the -4 in the next several months. I'd even be happy being a test mule. I was a EE in a prior life, as still have some techie skills. Having fuel and spark would be really cool.

Gary