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Posted by: Gint Nov 14 2008, 08:23 AM

I'd like to see where the $$$ are spent for a Type IV rebuild. Looking for a complete price break down listing of each of the individual parts (or group of parts, ie. pistons) , machining, labor (if necessary), etc...

Someone has to have done a complete listing of costs during their rebuild. But I've never seen one on this site.

Posted by: johannes Nov 14 2008, 08:58 AM

You can do it from Raby's kit parts list.
You will almost reach the price of the kit minus the heads if you keep them stock.

Posted by: Vacca Rabite Nov 14 2008, 08:59 AM

Off the top of my head, for a 2056 rebuild (and reusing some parts)
I am also counting fuel induction and exhaust as part of the engine build cost.

$2000 core 2056 engine with a butt ton of good parts (Mallory, 44 IDF carbs, CERAMIC LIFTERS, good heads, etc.)
$100 case machining (squaring droopy registers)
$80 cylinder boreout (I dropped one... )
$270 set of KB pistons/rings, balanced, from Jake
$40? main bearings
$50 seal kit
$25 adjustable push rod tool (from Jake - not needed, but VERY helpful)
$20 HF 1 inch dial indicator and mount
$100 lightened flywheel, tuna can, extra engine case, cam bearings (thanks Josh!)
$20 locktite case sealant
$trade push rods, mahle cylinder (the one that got bored out)
$700 Eurorace headers, turbo muffler
$60 two IDF rebuild kits (ebay)
$10 two phenolic gaskets.
$10 M8 threaded rod to make longer studs to use the thick gaskets.
$80 bead blasted clean all engine tin.
$16 engine paint for clean tin (rattle can)
$100 engine test stand (home built, componant cost only)

Theoretical total: $3681

Keep in mind, I am including things that others may not include for an "engine" rebuild. Either way, you have to do them, and an engine won't run w/o fuel and exhaust. I could have saved a little money if I had not been butterfingery with one of my cylinders. But I also looked for deals and made use of the 914world network instead of just going retail. Also, I did not have to have my heads done, and that saved me a TON of money. And, obviously, finding Evan and buying his 2056 was a godsend. The carbs, mallory, and lifters alone were worth what I paid for the whole engine.

Zach

Posted by: Gint Nov 14 2008, 09:11 AM

I'm not looking to build a list from Raby's site. It wouldn't include machining and the "gotchas" etc...

I'm looking for actual experience, after the fact, this is what it all cost when it was all said and done. Kinda like what Zach listed there. Except I didn't see a cam listed.

Thanks! More please!

Posted by: Vacca Rabite Nov 14 2008, 09:22 AM

The core motor I bought had a webcam 494 grind cam in it already, in good shape. I saw no reason to rebuy.

Also, I am still dicking with the carbs. So, I would need to add the cost of re-jetting and new venturis.

zach

Posted by: brant Nov 14 2008, 09:30 AM

Mike,

I'm sorry I didn't keep a list
I have a rough total though

I scrimped and reused things I shouldn't have
the first time, I reused my cam, pistons, cylinders
I did re-ring them, and have them honed

I also Fuch'd up by not having my rods rebuilt

my heads were $1,000 (stock rebuilt)
and with heads I had about $2500 into it

this second time I bought the cam kit for ? (was it $625?)
add the fact that I'm having the crank done, the rods rebuild, and a few more parts

if you don't count the items I'm buying twice
(2 gasket kits, 2 sets of bearings, 2 sets of rod nuts)

I'm thinking about $3,300 total with Zero labor
(even though there are many, many hours into washing, dissassembly, washing again)

this is a very stock 2.0 with a mild cam, but stock re-used pistons, low-ish compression, nothing fancy

brant

Posted by: Todd Enlund Nov 14 2008, 11:35 AM

I'm keeping very detailed records, but I'm nowhere near done. I'm shopping for deals until I am ready to build. The engine will be 2258cc. What I have so far:

Used 78mm Crankshaft - $100.00
New Pushrod Tubes - $19.95
New Webcam #163 w/ gear - 76.01
Dual Valve Springs w/ retainers - $22.75
1.7 Rocker Arms - $40.00
2.0 core engine w/40 IDFs, 009 and SSI exchangers - $400.00

My Shopping list includes another estimated $1849.15 in parts, $150 in machine work, and $1200 for the heads. That's $3857.86.

My list includes:
96mm KB stroker pistons/cylinders/rings
H-Beam Rods
Main/Rod/Cam bearings
Lifters
Gasket Set
Front and Rear oil seals
Dizzy drive gear
Chromoly pushrods
HD Rocker shafts w/ solid spacers
swivel foot valve adjusters and nuts
Oil galley plugs
Cam plug
dowel pins
woodruff key
Cylinder shims
Pushrod tube shims
2x IDF rebuild kits
Sachs disk/pressure plate
Cap/rotor/points/wires

And leaves me with a 2.0 crank and rods that I can sell off. I'm sure that I'll spend a few more bucks here and there on miscellaneous stuff or additional machine work, and I'd like to get something better than the 009 dizzy, but my target is carbs to muffler for $4K. When I get the crank magnafluxed, if it is bad, that will blow my budget. I think it will only cost me another ~$350 though, because I'll then buy a new crank that will eliminate the need for grinding, and it will have type 1 journals so the rods will be $100 cheaper.

And I still have about 5 months to shop for parts deals that could save me more $.

I'd be glad to give you an update when I'm done I think you'll find different people's costs vary widely depending on what they did. A $5k Raby kit, a $300 bearing and ring job, or something in between.

Posted by: carr914 Nov 14 2008, 07:06 PM

rdauerhaer(spelling?) has one for sale in the classifieds for $9,000. Spells out what went into it.

Posted by: rdauenhauer Nov 14 2008, 07:40 PM

Thanks for the Plug

But ..thats a complete drivetrain + extras.
If you follow one of those links it will take you to McMarks (updated?)
build page in which he provides a very detailed list of his kits components.


The thing is everyone focuses on the hard parts cost but when youve spent
that kind of money on an *new* engine its false economy to slap on old components like lines induction and electronic bits.

Im guessing most folks end up with Carbs so perhaps Im off the mark.

Posted by: Todd Enlund Nov 14 2008, 08:21 PM

I plan on starting with carbs, because they are way cheaper for my application than a custom EFI system. Later, I would like to experiment with EFI... but that will likely be years down the road.

Posted by: Gint Nov 14 2008, 08:27 PM

I understand that. Actually that's partly what I hope the result of this thread will reveal. I have a fair sized pile of used parts and if I get a complete enough list of prices for parts and labor for machining operations etc... I can figure out what I want to use new and used and get a ball park figure of what it might cost me to put something together. This will help me determine my direction. And that direction could still end up being a water cooled motor, but that's a thread for another day.

There are enough anal retentive people on this board that there have to be itemized engine build parts/costs lists out there.

Keep 'em comin and thanks!

Posted by: brer Nov 15 2008, 03:25 PM

heads- 600
crank and rods rebuilt - 280
case machine work- 150
bearings- 75
KB Pistons- 200
rings- 50
cylinders- 0
boring cylinders- 125
cyinder shims- 20
cromo pushrods- 80 (2 sets)
911 swivel feet- 80
rocker shims- 25
gasket kit- 40
main seals- 25
crank gears- 60
misc hardware and sealants- 100
flywheel- 60
balancing- 125
springs retainers- 80
cam lifters- 275 (i think)

powder coat- 150
ss heat exchangers- 200
exhaust- 325
intake system custom and still not finished- 700+

$2500 +/- not including time and fuel.

stock, with stock intake and exhaust would have been around $1750.00

also, new clutch and pressure and throwout- 175
cleaning ect. done by myself.

Posted by: r_towle Nov 15 2008, 07:35 PM

Stock 2.0 liter.
1800.00

Rich

Posted by: Jake Raby Nov 15 2008, 09:26 PM

With my kit = prep service there is no machine work cost- its all included along with the"gotchas".

According to the level of what you build, most people will spend 3K to get close to a properly outfitted engine that choose to buy parts without a kit. At that most engines aren't balanced and heads aren't thoroughly rebuilt with new seats properly installed and updated.

There are two parts you do not skimp on:
Cylinder heads
valve train/ camshaft.
Skimp on either of these and you'll blow your money away.

The brand new CNC produced cylinder heads are almost 1/2 the cost of my engine kits- they have to be.

Posted by: Gint Nov 15 2008, 09:32 PM

If I end up doing this it would appear that The Type IV Store "Basic valvetrain upgrade 8000" would be the way to go.

but...

I'm not looking to be told or advised what to use or do at this point. I'm not looking for a "kit" commercial or a total price only, or...

I'm looking for an itemized list of rebuild costs based on individual's experience after doing a Type IV rebuild like post #3 and #12. Thanks!

Posted by: r_towle Nov 15 2008, 10:37 PM

here is your spreadsheet for parts, go price these out to see for yourself.
Jake tends to be very competitive in his parts prices.

Engine Gasket set
Crankshaft main bearings
Front oil seal
rear oil seal
Camshaft bearings
Camshaft seal
Rod bearings
Rod bolts and nuts (new)
Pistons and cylinders
Camshaft
Lifters
Rocker arm adjusters
(optional custom push rods)
Piston rings
2 cases of oil
4 oil filters

Now, machine work etc.
You can choose to do or not do these items, so the cost is optional and its based upon your judgement, sac size, and current available funds.

Casework
Complete blueprint of case including line bore and register facing.
Drill and tap oil galley plugs

Rod work
recondition rods, machine shop work.

Head work
Clean them with easy off oven cleaner, four times in the chamber.
Clean them immediately with Borax for get rid of the black residue from the easy off.
Take ink and wipe the chamber (use white or red or pink ink) and let the ink seap into any possible crack...then wipe clean.

Take hig resolution pictures, call LEN, email the pictures..do what he says...he is reasonably priced and will only do what you need/want.
He will stay in your budget.

Given all of that.
Get a set of calipers and read the manual...if the current parts are within spec, use them again.

re-using pistons is quite acceptable no matter who says you cant.
If they are in spec (see the manual for the numbers) then you can use them..
every other motor re-uses pistons...we can and do.
They MUST be big enough and in spec.
Get the FACTORY manual for the motor.
read what they tell you (the manufacturer) you can do with used parts...valves, springs, keepers etc etc etc.
I will repeat so you read between the lines...
Get the FACTORY manual and read it...
You will learn what you can do.

Camshaft...that is your call, your judgement...it is matched with the lifters so they come in a set.
I have done it with both new and used...they all still run...BUT...you need to check the camshaft and lifters....are they in spec??
Rarely are they in spec...I got lucky a few times...most are burned and the hardness has been worn away (discoloration on the lobes) and once that starts...you aree now gonna grind either the lifter or the camshaft...or both very quickly.
You can save money on the gear by removing that yourself and bolting it to the new camshaft...

Heads are heads...they are probably cracked..if not use them.
1.7 and 1.8 heads can survive alot of abuse..
Minimum guaranteed need is valve guides and a valve job..that is minimum.
the ink will tell you...dont ignore it...it sucks to replace a single pistons and a head for being cheap...and that is what happens.

Rich

Posted by: Gint Nov 18 2008, 06:09 AM

Still looking for itemized lists of rebuild costs. Here's a weekday

Posted by: Joe Ricard Nov 18 2008, 10:02 AM

I don't understand your bump.

I am pretty sure several examples have been posted.

2500.00 minimum to 4000.00 cutting no corners.

increase in performance varies significantly per dollar.
My engine from carb filter to tail pipe? about 10K +/- a few hundred.

Posted by: Gint Nov 18 2008, 06:02 PM

Because I'd like more than 2 complete, itemized lists of costs.

Posted by: brer Nov 18 2008, 06:49 PM

I'm cleaning a case now for another motor.
I'll give you another one when its done.


I'd like to add that the only area I could have spend more money was P/C's
everything else was machined and race balanced properly, including zero decking the case and galley plugs.

It would be a mistake to think that 2500 means alot of corners were cut,
the reality is that sharp buyers can get great deals from members or ebay that will help keep costs down.

Posted by: Gint Nov 18 2008, 07:38 PM

And not every motor needs the same parts that the last guy used. That's just another reason I'd like to see a few more itemized lists. Thanks Brer!

Posted by: Joe Ricard Nov 18 2008, 08:12 PM

Well then I did Rob Waston's 2.0L
Heads freshened up with guides and valve job 350.00
86a cam and lifters 300.00
crank checked and poished journals 125.00
Flywheel resurface 50.00
(no balance of anything)
rods rebushed 75.00
Oil pump from CB
all new bearings
all new seals
6 spring sachs Clutch and pressure plate
You can find the price for the parts.
my labor came out to about .50 cents an hour.
That's about as cheap as it gets.

My 2098cc came to just 3K
Wasser boxer rods all done up with better rod bolts.
Lightened crank and flywheel (a lot) race balance
all the bearings
(all above was 900)
good used 98mm domed pistons and cylinders
CB oil pump
nice split duration cam 300.00 and new web lifters
re-used my 2.0L heads already done up nice.
6 puc Kennedy clutch and new PP
seal kit
Case full flowed cost lots of my sweat and sore hands

Carry overs from old motor
like I said heads
carbs
Tangerine
Mallory
vent cans and hoses
big ass oil cooler
and aero quip hoses

as the engines progressed some parts carried over to the Raby 2316-210 My power plant is easily 10K +

Bottomline it costs money to go fast.

Posted by: Jake Raby Nov 19 2008, 07:00 AM

The variables between engines will make a thread like this, with such definitive points being asked virtually impossible to respond to.
Every engine is worn differently and these days you'll spend time and moeny "un-fucking"what others have done to the engine in it's previous lives.

Remember the old saying- if you have to ask how much it costs, you can't afford it.

Often times budgets are the creators of compromise and that can lead to total failure- no matter what engine you are working with.

Posted by: Rusty Nov 19 2008, 07:15 AM

Mike,

Have you gone to Pelican's online store and built a wish-list for the replacement parts you're sure you'll need? That's a place I would start. Obviously, that won't help you with machine work costs.

IIRC, I think Dave Darling once wrote an article about this.

http://www.pelicanparts.com/914/914QA/914Q_engine_rebuild.htm

-Rusty

Posted by: Gint Nov 19 2008, 08:39 AM

I'm not trying to go fast.


Not really.

I understand the points you're trying to make, but...

It's actually a pretty simple request for data.

Perhaps I'm not making myself clear.




I appreciate the contributions to this thread. At this time however I'm not looking for 'what I should do' or 'how I should do it' or 'based on my budget' or other philosophical points about rebuilding a Type IV motor. There are tons of threads on this site about stuff like that. I could read them for days. In fact over the years of being on this site, I have read them for days.

This is what I'm asking for:

If you rebuilt a Type IV motor and have an itemized list of the parts, labor and machining operations costs, please post it here.

That's all. And thanks.

Posted by: MoveQik Nov 19 2008, 02:51 PM

Hey Mike....since you aren't getting the info you want, here is what I will do for you. I am guessing I am going to need to have my motor rebuilt. I'll document every penny and just deduct two cylinders worth for you. You know me...I'm here to help.

Posted by: Gint Nov 19 2008, 03:02 PM

Thanks Mike!

Posted by: DBCooper Nov 19 2008, 03:26 PM

That's what JP Morgan responded when somebody asked him about his YACHT. That was a YACHT for god's sake, not a fricken Volkswagen motor.

Posted by: ericread Nov 19 2008, 03:57 PM

From what I understand, Jake has taken a viewpoint this he provides a premium product that is suitable for the street as well as suitable for racing. As a result, any attempt to reduce costs for his product serves to endanger the integrity of his build, so it's "my way or the hiway". If I were him, I would probably take the same approach.

For my use, I track every penny I put into my 914. As of today, the operating expense of my teener is $0.4462/mile. This includes purchase price of the car, professional wrench time, DIY parts, insurance, gas, oil and any specialized tools I have purchased in working on my car. I have had the car for 21 months, and have put 27,536 miles on it in those 21 months.

In order to self-justify my auto budgeting, I always ask the cost of everything. That I could afford something is secondary to my thought process. It really goes to can I cost/benefit justify what I am buying.

Eric Read

Posted by: Todd Enlund Nov 19 2008, 04:14 PM

I'm sitting right at ∞/mile

Posted by: Joe Ricard Nov 19 2008, 04:18 PM

It's really amazing to see the differences displayed here in this thread.
We all seem to be wired differently.

Me go as fast as I can and I'll sell my soul to do it.

Others, I have never thought of cost/benefit. Interesting.

My way or the Highway. Exactly why I like Jake.

Posted by: DBCooper Nov 19 2008, 09:01 PM

Reminds me of the advice they give American tourists overseas. "Don't think, BUY!"

My experience has been that you're better off thinking. Ask questions, get answers.

Posted by: LarryR Nov 19 2008, 09:31 PM

good luck on your endeavour

Posted by: ericread Nov 19 2008, 09:54 PM

It really doesn't surprise me that much. In this group we have racers, concours weenies, garage queens, customizers, AX'ers, kids with their first cars and daily drivers. Each of us represent a unique segment of 914 owner world. In most organizations we would be each others rivals/enemies, but here we all work together to help each other. Kinda cool!

That certain vendors have a specific demographic (i.e. Jake), should be of no surprise eiither.

Eric Read

Posted by: Jake Raby Nov 20 2008, 07:22 AM

Thinking this is "Just a Volkswagen Motor" is the first mistake that many people make.

I solve the problems that are created by this mindset everyday for people all around the World.

Posted by: r_towle Nov 20 2008, 10:17 AM

Its interesting that "just a VW motor" would turn off some people.
This is a motor first and foremost....a mass of moving parts that all work in harmony to produce power...really amazing technology.

I approach these motors as a finely machined puzzle. Each part can and does operate within specifications and it performs quite well.
You can replace these parts with better part, yes that is very true.
The original motor was designed and built for long life...at the time long life was 100k miles...today its 200k.

It is a VW motor. I am proud of that fact.
Its an amazing little design that can run on four cylinders, but also run on less than four...most motors (non horizontally opposed motors) cannot do this.

At the end of the day, this is a machine that pumps air.
The wear items get replaced if out of specification and you put it back together and it runs great.
IF you want more power
IF you want more reliability than the factory 100k design...spend money.

IC lighter pistons, and lighter parts will change the dynamic of the original 100k mile design...it will shorten the lifespan...or not. Camshafts, flywheels all come into play...
This type of modification is based upon opinion...very few 100k plus rebuilds are running around...very few.

At the end of the day, the cost of rebuilding a motor is really determined by the motor, the parts you are using and the amount of replacement you need to do on those parts...

Jake builds motors for a specific market.
I have yet to find a motor builder that rebuilds a type4 motor stock, does it well, and does it exclusively.
Only Jake works on the Type4 and that is no longer an exclusive thing...he does other types of motors because the market for the type4 is not getting bigger...its getting smaller. Old car markets do that...new cars are not being built.

I suspect that within the next 5 years the market supply of parts for these motors will start to become more and more difficult to buy.

It is a VW motor...proud to say that and proud it can kick the ass of alot of newer porsche motors at the autox...

Rich

Posted by: Jake Raby Nov 20 2008, 12:31 PM

I'd like to make iit clear that even though I have created a division of my company that specializes in watercooled Porsche engines this will not impact the aircooled Type 4 work or product offerings at all.

All the same employees are working on the MassIVe program that have been in the past and doing so in the same facility, nothing has changed or will change there. I have added another 3500 square feet for the 996/ Boxster work and if anything the aircooled side of the house is benefiting from the additionof a chassis dyno as well as classrooms for our work shops that will be offered for both air and watercooled Porsche engines beginning Summer 09.

As for parts getting harder to find, thats not the case. We are continuing development of new components and that is alsi benefiting from the added capital of the watercooled division. We'll continue to stock the items that we have and work to make them better and more advanced.

Just for the record, before any assumptions are made- most people will never notice that we are no longer only working with the Type 4. I needed a new challenge.

Posted by: Ferg Nov 20 2008, 02:10 PM

Glad this thread is staying on topic

Posted by: r_towle Nov 20 2008, 05:08 PM

I was trying to stay on topic, but I get carried away sometimes.

My point is simple.

There is a specification for each part.
Measure it.
If the part meets the specification, use it...this does save money.

I am amazed that a simple process of measuring the pistons and cylinder (which costs next to nothing to do, or even get done for you) is constantly overlooked and regarded as a waste of time.

Measure them and save money...thats all.
Pistons get re-used all the time in engines...if they meet spec.
Cylinders also can and should be re-used.
If the budget option is pistons and cylinders that break and are not within spec to start with, I prefer to make my existing parts meet spec.

Bearings are always replaced...currently they are cheap to do.

Parts will continue to be more money and continue to become harder to obtain, even with Jakes efforts. The 356 main bearing sets....go price out those and you will see.

So, to answer a portion of Gints original post....it really will come down to what you NEED to replace.
Bare bones is a gasket set and bearings and rings.
The rest is measured and inspected to determine what to do/what to buy.

I have done two bare bones motors...parts were 200-300 dollars and both still run.
I know the cars...they are no longer mine but the motors still run.
One was a type 4 bus...still ticking away.

For me, nowadays...I replace more, but I will still use pistons that are in spec...dont see a logical reason not to.

So, an itemized list or bare bones...motors still run.
New gasket set...$60.00
New Rings $30.00
New Bearings $100
Misc $50


Rich

Posted by: Gint Nov 21 2008, 03:49 PM

Thanks again for the posts all.

Time for another to see if we can flush out a few more itemized lists of rebuild costs based on an individual's actual Type IV rebuild experience.

And Happy Friday!

Posted by: Jake Raby Nov 21 2008, 04:42 PM

Try asking on the STF or my forums... More building goes on there than here :-)

Posted by: g911 Nov 21 2008, 05:30 PM

Very interesting thread. I'm not sure I totally agree with "in spec" reuse it completely. Combustion is a high stress environment and although that is what an engine is built for, heat cycling and age will take their toll. Just because an item is "in spec" doesn't neccessarily mean it will stand up forever. kind of like "new tires" manufactured over five years ago, may fail. I think Mr. Raby's attention to detail bares this out. Just my $.02.

Posted by: MoveQik Nov 21 2008, 10:59 PM

So Mike....I see a lot of rhetoric here but I am still unclear what you are asking for. Are you wanting a complete itemized breakdown of all the parts, labor, machining etc of a 2.0 rebuild? If so, I have that. You should have just asked.

Posted by: Todd Enlund Nov 21 2008, 11:38 PM

Posted by: Chris Hamilton Nov 22 2008, 12:03 AM

It is "just a volkswagen motor" though. The type IV has many inherent design flaws, and if it weren't required by many racing associations it would have been put to pasture long ago. The type IV has nothing close to the level of development and aftermarket support of the Type I.

My 914 has a type IV engine in it solely because the PCA requires I run a porsche engine and transmission, and a six is simply too damn heavy.

Posted by: Jake Raby Nov 22 2008, 01:22 PM

I could not disagree more.

Perhaps this statement would have some merit if ONLY the 914 could use the engine, but thats not the case today and hasn't been.

Most all development of this engine has been done for OTHER applications, like the Type 1 conversion, 356 and 912 as well. Most everything we have developed has been FOR another application and just happens to be equally beneficial for the 914 (in most instances).

The Type 1 may have a huge aftermarket following, but that has also been it's down fall since everything bought for the TI is made in China, with at best bottom flor level quality when compared to the majority of TIV parts made in the USA or Germany. Who gives a damn if parts are available if most of them are pure junk and compromise the engine as soon as they are installed?

This year we have created 17 TI performance engines (Just finished a twin plug 1915 for Herbie Blash of FIA fame) on top of the 25 TIV engines we completed. We work with both foundations and there is no comparison between the two.

The amount of Type 4 DTMs we have sold this year is in the triple digits, that means over 100 TIV engines were converted for use in something other than a 914 this year using our cooling/ conversion system alone.

Most everything we offer for the 914 is made possible by the dozens of engines being converted weekly all around the world. Don't base the current state of type 4 usage on just the 914-

This year we have sold at least one engine or engine kit to be assembled on every Continent except Antarctica and the only states we didn't populate with a kit or turn key at least once was Montana, South Dakota and Lousiana. I have a possible sale in Louisiana pending)

(Don't think for a minute this engine isn't popular, I have the statistics to suggest otherwise, because I love numbers and keep records on everything for purposes most would never understand.)

Posted by: pete-stevers Nov 22 2008, 04:17 PM

again way of the topic ......

jake ...why not let us know the break down of one of your typical engine engine builds for the sake of the thread

Posted by: Jake Raby Nov 22 2008, 04:32 PM

Most people that are going to buy the parts to build a complete engine from us, just buy the kit. The list of the parts in the kit as well as the cost can be found here.
http://www.rdtlabs.com/porschekits.htm

The primary presentation explainiing the rest of the kit details must also be viewed to gain a thorough understanding of what the kit really is here
http://www.rdtlabs.com/Presentations/ratenginekitprogram_files/frame.htm

The variables associated with cylinder head "rebuilding" can make the difference in cost of over 1K alone depending on who does the work, how thoroughly theyy do it and the condition of your 30 year old castings.

Most people spend equal or more than one of my kits to do a thorough rebuild of their engine with correctly rebuilt heads. Thats why I am continually told that people could have bought the kit for what they paid for a smorgasbord of parts.. That variety oof parts was not an enginnered and proven arrangement that was fully balanced, fully prepped with CR, valvetrain geometry and end play pre-set out of the box... They also didn't get BRAND NEW cylinder heads and they also have little to now support from the parts suppliers since they had to call 19 places to buy it all and no one knows what other parts are being used.

I was asked a question and I tried to answer it the best way I could, but I am sure I'll hear from some smart ass within the next 5 replies to this thread that doesnn't like my answers.

Anyway, its near impossible not to cut corners and do the job cheaper than one of my kits. if head work doesn't cost you 1K+ you are not doing the work as comprehensively as it demands to be.

As far as the engines I build turn key, everything is replaced except the case and crank in most all instances, some engines even get brand new cranks as well.

Posted by: DBCooper Nov 22 2008, 04:43 PM

Jake, when you call people "smart asses" you're provoking, and then they tend to respond like smart asses. Just an observation.

Posted by: Jake Raby Nov 22 2008, 06:22 PM

Smart asses will be smart asses, they will rear their ugly heads with or without provocation...

Posted by: Chris Hamilton Nov 22 2008, 07:07 PM

That's bullshit, and you know it. Does anyone offer anything like the claudes buggies competition eliminator heads for the type IV?

I can go to any number of suppliers, like Gene Berg, Autocraft, and Pauter for type I performance parts, where I'm not seeing hardly that level of support for the type IV. There is also a great deal of parts available from claudes buggies for engine accessories, such as the $150 1 5/8" header system for my type 1 which would cost well over a grand for any type IV car.

Posted by: DBCooper Nov 22 2008, 07:25 PM

Jake, I give you a heads-up that calling people "smart asses" will get you a reaction, so you respond by upping the ante to "ugly" smart asses? Why are you trying to provoke a fight?

And could I point out something else? You say "all" T1 parts are from China, but not all the parts mentioned by Chris are made in China. And everything on that list is high quality, no matter where it comes from. There's lots of T1 crap from China, it's true, but there's lots of high quality things from all over, too. Lots more than for T4 engines. The customer gets a choice, and that's not a bad thing. Is it?

Posted by: Chris Hamilton Nov 22 2008, 07:32 PM

Because someone is wrong, ON THE INTERNET!

( reference: http://xkcd.com/386/ )

Posted by: Jake Raby Nov 22 2008, 07:44 PM

If I thought it was bullshit I would not have posted it- its a fact.

Autocraft has made TIV heads in the past, Pauter still does and so does Scat with their split port heads. In Europe Engine Plus also offers something similar. I also have a couple of options that flow the same or better than a set of CE heads at full prep and if the price comparison is made at equal levels of prep its almost the same.. The prices advertised in the mags are usually "base models" and much cheaper than full prep.

And remember the C/E head only has SIX cooling fins and none of those surround the exhaust port. What good does making power do if the engine becomes heat soaked and that power level can't be maintained? Please compare apples to apples, but thats impossible with the Ti Vs TIV battle. I know because I have been fighting that battle for 15 years.

The TI stuff is dirt cheap because of volume... and the fact that hardly any of it is made in the USA, or Germany. Its all coming from Brazil and Mexico, and of course China and it's distributed generally by companies with low quality standards and sold to others that generally are also expecting low quality. Today the majority of TIV parts are made in the USA or Europe and remain excellent quality.

For every 1 TIV thats on the road, there are 100 Type 1s and thats been the way it has been forever, since the engines were new.... That can't be changed.

Today a much more streamlined group of Enthusiast exist that want something that can't be bought in a catalog for a dirt cheap price, thats why the majority of those I deal with are north of 50 years of age and are tired of playing the games. They have been around long enough to know that quality and low price don't go together and they are ready to just drive their damn car without worrying about issues that could pop up on a cross country drive..



Never heard that figure of sepeech before?? if someone is a smart ass, I don't give a damn what they look like- I treat them all the same.

At any rate, maybe a smart ass won't pop up- maybe my statement kept them at bay... they usually pop up by now!

Didn't mean to piss anybody off.

Posted by: Chris Hamilton Nov 22 2008, 07:57 PM

I think you're gonna need to do a fact check there. Both the street eliminator heads and the competition eliminator heads ran wide open for 2000 miles across mexico in the La Carrera Panamericana and looked brand new afterwards, no heat issues. If there is a better heat test than that, I'd like to see it.

I don't see how this isn't an apples to apples comparison. Performance aftermarket heads can make or break an engine combination, and these are cheap and readily available from claudes buggies.

Posted by: DBCooper Nov 22 2008, 08:12 PM

Jake, you said "everything bought for the TI is made in China, with at best bottom flor level quality" which is simply not a true statement. Where it's made is irrelevant anyway. If it works well and lasts it's a good part, no matter where it comes from.

And calling anyone who doesn't agree with you a "smart ass" to provoke a fight is a really smart ass thing to do.

I know, marketing, marketing, marketing. I know it works, but I still don't like it.

Sorry Gint, the way this is going I don't think you're going to get the answer to your question. And it wasn't THAT complicated a question...

Posted by: Jake Raby Nov 22 2008, 08:55 PM

I apologize for assisting with the thread hi jacking that has occurred here. I will refrain from taking it further by responding to Chris or DB Cooper.

I will email a couple of recent customers and ask them for their price tallies for some simple rebuilds, it might give Gint some insight.

Posted by: Type 4 Unleashed Nov 23 2008, 03:08 AM

I am doing another motor, a 105 x 82 = 2840, some of the prices are due to good timing & good shopping.

Crank new DPR 82mm 2.0 ltr jrl - $350
Rods Chinese 5.5" 2.0 ltr jrl's - $300
Cam Pauter $135
Lifters used Type 1 free, but had them surfaced - $15
Cyl's 104.9mm new from club member $80
Cyl's honed to 105mm $65
Pistons 105mm used $25
Pins Casidium $22.50
Rings JE new $32.50
Case machine work around $200 ish
Main, rod & cam bearing's & gaskets around $120

Heads, 2.0 ltr's the most expensive single item complete rework, about $600
Retainers used Ford $7.50
Springs used ford $4.99
Guides new C.H.E. $7.50
Valves Tit $10
Seats Exh Berilium Copper $10
Int seats, will have to have them made $?

Labor $1,000,000
Total $1,984.99

The Pistons,Pins, Rings, Retainers, Springs, Guides, Valves, Seats, prices are 1/2 of what I paid, since all this stuff are V-8 items, bought on Ebay, so still have the rest of the set for another build.

The DPR crank was bought several years ago, when the rod options were only the expensive one's other than stock, so they were not that popular, hence the reason I got it for a good price. The rest of the items were bought over time, knowing they would eventually be used.

Fuel system, Exhaust & Ignition, are not part of the engine build, so not included.

Some of the items are from other motors, and get moved to the new build, but the price was still paid at some point, but in my case the Total price is not the actual price for this build, due to the parts carried over from previous builds.

Posted by: DBCooper Nov 23 2008, 06:48 AM

Thanks, Jake. That would help a lot.

Posted by: Dominic Nov 23 2008, 07:17 AM

Here is what I spent to build my 2270cc engine. Most of the parts are from the Type 4 store and I started the project before the kits became available. Of course this is just the internals, this did not include any of the costs for my Exhaust, Induction, Cooling, Clutch ect.

LE 200 Heads $2100.00 Type 4 Store
96mm Biral Barrels $650.00 Ebay
96mm Cast Pistons $265.00 Type 4 Store
78.4mm stroke c/w crank $530.00 Type 4 Store
Type 1 Billet Rods 5.4” $340.00 Type 4 Store
Custom Camshaft $180.00 Type 4 Store
Modified Cam Gear $ 42.00 Type 4 Store
Manton push rods $ 52.00 Type 4 Store
Pushrod Tubes $ 25.00 Ebay
Main Bearings $ 52.00 Type 4 Store
Rod Bearings $ 22.00 Type 4 Store
Gasket Kit $ 45.00 Ebay
Rear main Seal Viton $ 10.00 EBS Racing
Cam Bearings $ 11.00 EBS Racing
Type 1 30mm oil pump $ 50.00 Gene Berg
Oil Pump Cover $ 10.00 Type 4 Store
Oil Strainer $ 12.00 Type 4 Store
Rocker Arm Spacers $ 25.00 Type 4 Store
.090” Cylinder Shims $ 70.00 Type 4 Store
Curil K2 Sealant $ 15.00 Type 4 Store
Curil T Sealant $ 15.00 Type 4 Store
Dirko Sealant $ 15.00 Type 4 Store
Camshaft Oil Plug $ 4.00 Type 4 Store
Intermediate Balancing $180.00 Type 4 Store
Machine work on Case $150.00 Local Machine Shop

Total Engine Parts/labor: $4870.00 (your costs may vary)


Attached image(s)

Posted by: zx-niner Nov 23 2008, 10:33 AM

Contrast with my recent turn key 2270 Performer version that cost a nominal $10 grand, plus miscellaneous extras, crating, shipping, etc.

Posted by: Gint Nov 24 2008, 09:52 AM

Start of the week, weekday

Richard and Dominic - Thanks! That's exactly what I'm looking for.

Anybody else? What happened to... I think it's Mr. Kona? He was documenting a rebuild and had a thread here. I'm sure he's collected the costs of his rebuild.

Posted by: TROJANMAN Nov 24 2008, 10:16 AM

Mike,
If I can find my receipt from Moyle, I'll gladly send you a copy.

Posted by: Gint Nov 24 2008, 01:35 PM

Cool. I'd appreciate it. Post it here.

Posted by: type11969 Nov 24 2008, 07:10 PM

Gint-

I just put together a spreadsheet documenting some different options for the rebuild I am doing on my camper (just found out it is a GEX), I can email it to you. I just guessed on the machining costs for the skimp rebuild, I'm sure I am off in both directions. End result, with the level I was willing to skimp, the price difference between skimping and Jake's camper special kit is about $1400 (skimp - 2400, kit - 3780 both including some rough estimates on shipping). A more thorough rebuild closes that difference to about $800-$1000. This is looking at different vendor prices as well (aircooled.net, germansupply.com). I'm sure you can find cheaper elsewhere but I trust those vendors to provide quality. My decision, go with the camper special. With the reliability I want I would be looking at a savings of 800-1000 bucks and I know what Jake is going to send me will be excellent. Plus the headaches of dealing with the machine work will be lessened, support through Jake is good, etc. Not trying to sound like an ad, I was surprised when I finally sat down and crunched the numbers.

Of course the 914 will be different but my guess is that the spread will be similar.

I doubt I will regret my decision, especially when I travel out of the 100 mile AAA safety net. This isn't to say that I will always go with one of Jake's kits, I think compiling something yourself is definitely gratifying and I have some ideas for things I want to build myself. I do think that one of his kits is much more reasonable though than some might imagine.

-Chris

Posted by: orange914 Nov 25 2008, 12:56 AM

i think joe summed it up. (2500-4000) i basically built a 2056 from scratch thru researching and buying quility used/rebuilt/rebuilable parts (like o.e. cylinders for boring). along with the obvious new stuff needed. it took forever but worth it. i counted everything spent and put out $4500.

Posted by: brer Dec 2 2008, 04:55 PM

thought i'd post this here....

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=250332474448&ssPageName=ADME:B:WNA:MOTORS:1123

Posted by: orange914 Dec 2 2008, 07:06 PM

what a deal! you can't do this for anywhere near that $... 2 hrs to go

mike

Posted by: Gint Dec 2 2008, 07:23 PM

Just when you thought the thread hijacks were over...

Posted by: brer Dec 2 2008, 08:11 PM

but i did it for you gint.

Posted by: Gint Dec 2 2008, 08:24 PM

Didn't mean to come off like such a downer. I appreciate the thought. But I'm looking for costs of individual parts and labor for machining operations associated with a Type IV rebuild.