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Posted by: jd74914 Feb 16 2004, 06:25 PM

Help. I've got my 914 running, but I feel that it needs alot more power. I mean, it handles great in the twisties, but doesn't seem have enough power for the straights (or the stoplights).

Does anyone have any suggestions to drag more power out of my 1.8L. I'm looking for about 140hp without swapping the engine. Has anyone out there tried pulling this much power out of their 'fourteen and if so how did you do it?

Any help or suggestions or even ideas that you could provide would be greatfully appriciated. Thanks.

P.S. I want a dependable engine that I can use as a daily driver that won't need to be rebuilt every 10,000 miles.

Posted by: DuckRyder Feb 16 2004, 06:29 PM

I'd say you need to talk to jake.

Short of turbo charging, and we all know you can't turbo a 914, a big 4 or six is about the only way I see making that kind of power.

BTW, what happened to my avatar darn it?

Posted by: jd74914 Feb 16 2004, 06:35 PM

Who is jake?

Posted by: ArtechnikA Feb 16 2004, 06:41 PM

everyone has tried it. you can get that kind of power from a 1,8 with Webers, a suitable cam, and a 7500 rpm redline.

you might get 10,001 miles. less is more likely.

there are no simple bolt-ons...

Posted by: tat2dphreak Feb 16 2004, 06:44 PM

Jake is the man you want to talk with... 'cept 140 is child's play to him now... 200+ can be done!

Posted by: SirAndy Feb 16 2004, 06:46 PM

i believe that is what you guys call a oxymoron

i know rich bontempi gets 180hp out of his 1.8 racing engine. "dependable" is not a word i would use in conjunction with that engine.

you won't get a "reliable, dependable, maintenance free, 140hp 1.8L daily driver" ...

if you want to get into the 140HP range AND have a reliable engine you need to look into something that puts out that kind of HP in stock configuration, which pretty much leaves you with a /6 conversion OR spend BIG $$$ for a highly modified (bigger than 1.8L) /4.

the above mentioned Jake Raby (who's a member of this board) builds those BIG Type IV engines ...

http://www.aircooledtechnology.com/Home_Page.htm

Andy

Posted by: 914ghost Feb 16 2004, 06:52 PM

well...hmm...
I think if you get 140hp out of your engine it wont be a 1.8 anymore. Essentially you'll have to swap everything but the case from what I know.
Might as well swap your engine.
2.0's had about 100 hp stock, and its pretty easy to go up from there, seems like 140 reliable HP is pretty optimistic without BIG $$$ spent though.
If you had a 2.0 to begin with and like $1200 and did the work all yourself you could prolly reach 140.
But.. . .

Posted by: DuckRyder Feb 16 2004, 07:01 PM

I got more than 1200 in parts for a 2.0 stock rebuild.

IMHO its going to take 1200 minimum into the heads alone to make that kind of honest power.

I also don't see it happening with D-Jet, so carbs or aftermarket injection.

Posted by: SirAndy Feb 16 2004, 07:07 PM

if you want to keep your 1.8L, get a more agressive cam and dual carbs ... remove all the not needed smog crap, get nice big headers and you will be in the 90/100 hp range.
remove all un-needed weight and you should feel a significant difference.

if you're new to 914's i suggest you get some seattime with the stock 1.8L your local AX or TT ...
you WILL BE amazed what you can do with a stock 1.8!

i run a stock 1.8L with D-Jet injection (sans the smog-crap) and i have NO problem pulling 96.45% of the cars around here. (i'm estimating a optimistic 85hp)
i frequently "race" with my buddy (he has a ferrari 328) and he's always surprised how well i can keep up.
and as soon as we get to the twisties, i'm glued to his rear-bumper!

mo HP is certainly nice, but be prepared to bring wads of cash ...
Andy

Posted by: jd74914 Feb 16 2004, 07:17 PM

What would you guys recommend for new cams? What kind of carbs would be needed, and would SSI headers and a high flow muffler work as a good header/muffler combo?

Posted by: nebreitling Feb 16 2004, 07:35 PM

SSI's and a Bursch will help. but we're probably only talking a few hp. a Tangerine header may give slightly more power still, though a bigger engine is needed to really take advantage of it. a K&N filter MAY be good for another 1 or 2 hp, but that's getting to be pretty negligible. Carbs and a hot cam (google: webcam) may spice things up a little, although if you were going to do the cam you IMHO might as well freshen the whole engine and build a 2056 (110+hp) or 2270 (140?). expect expensive headwork for high power; bring some $$.

or just enjoy it in the twisties, that's my philosophy..

Posted by: anthony Feb 16 2004, 07:41 PM

I wouldn't recommend new cams on your current engine. What are you going to do - spend $1000+ for cams, lifters, and carbs, split the engine and end up with +10hp?

With a better exhaust system (SSIs + bursch for example) you might free up 5hp. Is that worth $500?

Posted by: SirAndy Feb 16 2004, 08:05 PM

get the 2.0L SSI HE (bigger diameter) and a agressive webcam ...

the 86 series comes to mind. ask "seanery" about his setup ...

Andy

Posted by: VegasRacer Feb 16 2004, 08:07 PM

The secret to enjoying life is to be found in this thread.
"Learn to enjoy what you have Grasshopper."

Seriously; You can throw money at your car and end up with a warmend over motor that will not make you happy.
If you currently have a good running, reliable one - enjoy it.
If you really want more power - go for it. Don't be half assed. Do it right.



P.S. The cheapest way to fell like you have more power is to lose weight.
If you are willing to gut your car and drop 300 lbs it will be faster.

Posted by: ArtechnikA Feb 16 2004, 08:09 PM

read the original requirements - no engine swap.

200 can't be done on 1,8 liters as we know them ...
(forced induction is another matter. this is no simple matter either.)

Posted by: Jake Raby Feb 16 2004, 08:15 PM

I have made 180 out of a 13:1 1800cc engine..

Run it till it explodes and wastes everything...

Then call me, I'll build a 2270- you install it- drive it away and out run most anything on the road...

There is no replacement for ccs, if done right... Smootehr running and a better idle, even better fuel mileage- AND MORE POWER!

Posted by: iamchappy Feb 16 2004, 08:16 PM

I think it all depends on what kind of performance you are looking for, you might want to hook up with someone who already has a big 4 or six and make your judgement from that. This is coming from someone who started with a stock 2.0 pumped it up to a 2100 pumped it up from there to a 2.9. Now I run a 3.0 six which is being pumped up another 100hp or more with a turbo. There is no end to this madness your just getting started.
Good luck

Posted by: SirAndy Feb 16 2004, 08:16 PM

yupp, conventional wisdom says you can get about 10HP per 100cc out of a normally aspirated T4 ...

1800cc = 180HP

BUT, that won't be a reliable engine by any means.

now, if you would be interested in putting a turbo on it ...
Andy

Posted by: Jake Raby Feb 16 2004, 08:19 PM

Its reliable for a season at 7,000 RPM... BUT the engine doesn't make power till 5200 RPM

Posted by: jd74914 Feb 16 2004, 08:22 PM

Guys, anyone know how much a turbo would run ($$), and how much power could be added with one. Has anyone actually turboed a 914 and what does the project entail.

Posted by: SirAndy Feb 16 2004, 08:23 PM

now, speaking of "mo power" ...

here's something out of "the book" (page 12):

in 1949 porsche was commissioned by the italian Piero Dusio (owner of "Cisitalia") to build a racecar for him.
the car was a midengine tube-frame car based on porsches P-Car concept.
it featured a 1.5L (yes, one-point-five), 12 cylinder flat boxer engine with 450HP @ 10500 rpm.
it had 4 overhead cams and dual weber carbs and a roots-compressor ...

top speed was 300 km/h (~190mph)

now THAT sounds like a fun engine
Andy

Posted by: Bleyseng Feb 16 2004, 08:25 PM

There have been 3 or 4 turbo 914s that I know of. SammyGs, EdEvil's, Jeff Shuys and one other...

I would run one now with Kit Carsons EFI so you could keep it running cool on boost.

Geoff

Posted by: rhodyguy Feb 16 2004, 08:32 PM

money, that's all it takes. how could you do that and not swap the engine? you will need a new clutch anyways.

kevin

Posted by: Racer Chris Feb 16 2004, 08:58 PM

Jim,
Welcome to the 914club.
My current 1.8liter race engine puts out about 150hp peak, but it's pretty lame below 4000rpm. It shouldn't be too hard to find 120 hp from a 1.8 liter engine, in a package that will be streetable and last 10,000mi or more. It will take a few extra sheckels to do it right. Carbs and exhaust, as well as some dyno tuning should be part of the combo.

Ed Morrow has a turbo 1.8L that has some good kick. I saw it and had a ride in December, and was impressed He lives not too far, near Sturbridge Mass.

Posted by: ArtechnikA Feb 16 2004, 09:18 PM

if you have to ask ... (you can't afford it)

okay - more realistic. picture your worst-case high-water mark, double it, and you'll be in the ballpark. the power is the -beginning- of your issues. for every HP you make, you must deal with 2 in heat rejection. cooling is a major factor. your transmission was designed for the power available. double the engine power, and things downstream start breaking (later, if not sooner).

race sanctioning bodies factor turbos at somewhere between 1.4:1 and 2:1, typically. so figure to double your ~90 HP - tops.

a few have. at least 2 were running. one quite well. a few others in the past. it's not trivial, although with the (recent) advent of reasonably-priced, programmable engine management systems, it's probably easier than it ever has been. (at a cost - figure somewhere between $1k and $2k for induction/engine management. at least that for appropriate exhaust. you'll need a turbo. and lots of oil cooling. and ...)

Porsche made its reputation by beating big-engine cars with teeny engines, brakes, and handling. After 20 years of trying, they finally won Le Mans with a 4,5-liter engine, just like the competition they were trying to beat.

OTOH - if you -really- want to succeed at the Stop Light Grand Prix - go buy a Hemi-Cuda. power is fun, but when it comes to spending your hard-earned money - decide what it is you -really- want first.

Posted by: Brad Roberts Feb 16 2004, 09:18 PM

Man this is good..LOL

5k for the turbo setup with all new injection system or 7k for a 2270cc engine carbed. Plain and simple. You will not get 140 out of a 1.8 without spending big money. It will cost the same to get 140 out of a 1.8 as it would to get 180 out of a 2.0 (minus the core engine)

When people walk into the shop and ask.. I just rattle off the cost. I dont even go into all the variables..its a waste of time.


B

Posted by: Andyrew Feb 16 2004, 10:02 PM

What are you planning on doing with the car? Racing it? or just street? What are you looking to spend?

This will help these other smart guys help you decide.

Andrew

Posted by: SirAndy Feb 16 2004, 10:45 PM

he said "daily driver" ....

Posted by: campbellcj Feb 16 2004, 10:46 PM

I figure the best way to get reliable HP out of a 1.8 is...the VAG 1.8T engine They put out 225HP in some factory configs with full warranty and streetability. Much more with bolt-on mods.

I know some of you guys are big fans of the Type4 platform, but I'm just not.

Posted by: Andyrew Feb 16 2004, 10:51 PM

Ya, but mines a daily driver as well.. ok, ok... I see your point.

Andrew

Posted by: fiid Feb 17 2004, 01:36 AM

I'm a big fan of all of the engines derived from the original bug engine. Especially the Subaru motor I'm putting in my car :-). The 6s aren't bad either - although a bit heavy.

Posted by: Jake Raby Feb 17 2004, 07:14 AM

If I was going to do anything for more power than a TIV could put out- I'd jump straight to a small block chevy! The engine is dirt cheap to build and a two year old can do it.....

-6 is way too damn expensive!

Posted by: tat2dphreak Feb 17 2004, 08:51 AM

my bad, I thought by "original engine" it could still be bored and stroked... I thought he was just trying to keep it type IV powered... I'll have to read more carefully next time

Posted by: 7391420 Feb 17 2004, 10:41 AM

There was an article in Excellence last year on a turbo 914, sweet car, does anyone remember the month this article was in? It had the MSDS turbo fan cut into the back trunk..

-I seem to remember that the guy spent well into 5 figures to do that job....

Posted by: tat2dphreak Feb 17 2004, 10:43 AM

I have that issue at home... I can check tonight... sweet car!

Posted by: boxstr Feb 17 2004, 10:43 AM

More horsepower...


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Posted by: seanery Feb 17 2004, 11:04 AM

"That guy" is a member here. Evil Ed, people askin' 'bout yer car!

Posted by: tat2dphreak Feb 17 2004, 11:06 AM

maybe it's just me, or maybe it's the radiator hose... that doesn't *look* stock

j/k

Posted by: Evill Ed Feb 17 2004, 03:01 PM

I think they are talking about the six cylinder turbo in Excellence last year.

My Turbo Type 4 was in the June 2002 issue.

Check the webshots link in my signature, the Excellence article is scanned in there.

Also a new album on a friends 914 that I'm doing a Glass GT kit and full repaint on.

Regards,
Ed

Posted by: tat2dphreak Feb 17 2004, 03:14 PM

not the same one I read... but VERY NICE!!!

Posted by: steve@ottosvenice.com Feb 17 2004, 07:08 PM

Save your moneyand put a 3.2 in it. Steve


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Posted by: Jake Raby Feb 17 2004, 07:11 PM

Forget that... Like I said I'd rather have a small block chevy... 4 IDAS and atleast 400HP (and you can buy all the parts fro Summit dirt cheap)

Type IV or V8 for me..... Thats the simple engines of the world.

Hell the Type IV has bigger main bearings than the V8 does!

Posted by: tat2dphreak Feb 17 2004, 08:05 PM

bigger pushrods too!! my buddy about shat himself when he saw type 4 pushrods... "compared to type 1s... they are massive" he said

I 1/2 agree with you jake... v8s are definately the easiest/cheapest engines... but I NEVER want a radiator in my 914...

Posted by: Jake Raby Feb 17 2004, 09:33 PM

I don'r want radiators either.. I hate them more than about anyone else on the planet earth..

I'd rather have a 400HP Chevy than 6 cylinder Porsche.. Thats just me, it might add weight but damn are they simple! Damn are they cheap!

I built a 275HP engine for 1800 bucks all from Summit!

Didn't mike a damn thing, just bolted it together and it hauls ass in my old work truck... Thats the only V8 I ever built did the whole job in 10 hours and had it running in the truck in 2 more! That was 65K miles or so ago.

Posted by: Brad Roberts Feb 17 2004, 09:59 PM

3 V8 conversion cars in the shop right now. None of them are slow.

I love them.


B

Posted by: McMark Feb 17 2004, 10:29 PM

Maybe I'll change my mind after I've ridden in one.


Doubt it.

Posted by: tat2dphreak Feb 18 2004, 09:32 AM

I won't argue about a SBC's Simplicity... I rebuilt one when I was 15 to get my truck running... all the normal rebuild stuff + 2 pistons and 3 rods and it was still < $500 in the rebuild including getting the heads worked...

I have no DOUBT that a 914 with a v8 would be scary fast.... I just don't like putting a water cooled engine in a car that was air cooled to start... or vice versa...

possibly exception of a corvair... those sucked and need something good to say about them :|

Posted by: swood Mar 10 2004, 09:24 PM

I'm thinking that the Eggplant needs a V8 transplant. Without totally hijacking the thread...whats the best route? The renegade hybrid setup or have someone like our "Host" build it?

I'm thinking of completely stripping it down and doing a custom fun and fast car. I need a build list and cost estimate to start saving/procuring as I tear into it.

Thoughts?

Posted by: d914 Mar 10 2004, 09:42 PM

I have a 2.5l 6 and the power does start to come on until 3-4k, race 1.8 same. Get a well built 2.0l 4 with a more street usable power band, get some fiberglass and enjoy what the car does well, twisties....

Posted by: Brad Roberts Mar 10 2004, 09:58 PM

I only use Renegade conversion components. They dont really like me.. but I push people in their direction for conversion parts.

B