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Posted by: jaxdream Jan 10 2009, 01:39 AM

Hi guys, I've been reading some of tyhe posts concerning using the 74 + hub centric eared 911 rear hubs for a 5 lug conversion. Iv'e seen mentioned that one needs to use a 5mm spacer on the hub on the wheel side against the outter inner bearing race . My question is why the 5mm spacer instead of a 6mm spacer ?? 914 and earlier 911 use a 36mm wide bearing the later mentioned 911 used a 42mm wide bearing , what happens with the leftover 1 mm?? Does it stick out to be sqished up against the stub , will it not allow the hub / stub to fully seat ??As i have figured on using the inner races from the aforementioned 74+ hub bearing having them ground down on a surface grinder for squareness sake , just want to be sure of the thickness demention before the grinding to get the right thickness I need.

Jaxdream

Posted by: SLITS Jan 10 2009, 09:21 AM

I acquired a car with this setup. No spacer on the hub, just washers under the rotors (911 rotors) and calipers (stock /4) to TRY and center the caliper over the rotor. What a pile of shit.

Problems:

1.) rotors would not run true to be able to set venting clearance.

2.) makes getting the calipers off / on a real PITA

I wound up trashing the 911 rotors in favor of /4 redrilled rotors which eliminated the washers under the rotors, but still had to space the calipers inward to center them.

I was also told the 911 axles were too short and a spacer should be put between the transmission flange and inner CV joint to not "overextend" the CV joint.

My solution .... I will be changing the whole shitten mess to /4 stuff. Then I know that everything will line up correctly and function. I also have a set of EARLY 901 hubs and stub axles, but the /4 setup makes it so much easier ... no freakin spacers anywhere.

I know this didn't answer your question, but I had to rant about it. Ok Eric, you can beat me up on this one.

Posted by: PRS914-6 Jan 10 2009, 10:11 AM

The spacer info you need is in http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=65965

Posted by: Eric_Shea Jan 10 2009, 10:45 AM

Here comes your whoop'n.

You're kinda right but, you give up too easy (and you're grouchy too). You just need to pull those hubs and have a proper spacer made for the hubs shaft like Paul done did. I had struggled over getting 911 CV's and a fairly easy five lug solution for a fairly high powered six. The light bulb came on one day while talking to Paul. Luckily, the light bulb came on over his head a while back so I didn't have to strain my noodle. When he mentioned; "Why not just get the right length axles?" I thought well... WHY NOT?

You are correct. The 911 axles are too short. By 28mm I believe. Photographic evidence to ensue:

(this is the part where Slits makes fun of my digital calipers, Ron tries to stop him but Slits prevails)


Ménage à Trois - Sway-A-Way 28 spline Porsche axle, stock 914 axle (with the CV before I sent everything off to Gint the parts whore) and the stock 911 axle:


I'm not the expert on the spacer. Paul is the one who's BTDT so I'd hit that thread for enlightenment. My set up does not use the later hub centric hubs. I'm using1970 stuff. 911 Hubs. 911 Stub Axles. 911 CV's. Sway-a-Way Axles. and 911 Flanges. I had the pics so I thought I'd throw a visual up to the axle issue.

If I can get the right tool to crimp my clamps, I'll post a thread on the entire axle conversion today.

Posted by: rhodyguy Jan 10 2009, 04:07 PM

hurry eric. that jon (v-caliper, 911 mid engine caddy conversion) i sent your way will need it. he's all sideways with studs, spacers, etc. but he doesn't know how wide of wheels he's going to use.

Posted by: jaxdream Jan 10 2009, 06:34 PM

Thanks guys , Paul's thread didn't come up in the search that I done , but got me to thinking on my measurements . Paul's thread clered up the question on the spacer thickness , I believe I have the other stuff figuerd out. I will probably be selling my 69-73 hubs and stubs in the near future, I'll have to check , I believe I have 2 sets . Thanks again for the help. Eric you still need 914 rear calipers for rebuild ??Shoot me a PM with your addy and I'll get them out to you. Thanks again.
jaxdream
Jack

Posted by: Eric_Shea Jan 10 2009, 07:09 PM

I remember him... seems like an interesting project. Danke!

E.

Posted by: Wilhelm Jan 25 2009, 12:53 AM

Just looking at the different length axles as one option. What is the easiest way to measure these? I would guess I need one length based on the hub in line with the transmission and another with the swingarm in full extension. Does any one know a method to get the right length axle based on a measurement between the transmission flange and the swing arm flange? Thanks

Posted by: shoguneagle Jan 25 2009, 03:34 AM

I have read these great threads and need some clarification for my "old, befuddled brain". Here is what I have:

1. Early 911 stub shafts without concentric lip (69-73).
2. Early 911 transaxle drive flanges
3. Early 911 CV joints
4. Early 911 hubs
5. Sway-A-Way axles (part #2420, 20 and half inches long, 28 splines)
6. Set of early 911 bearings (may be the same as 914 and Boxster to 97)

The items I need your input relate to following:

1. We can use either early 911 69-73 wheel stub axles along with appropriate hubs. These do not have the centering flange or concentric fit that a later model has (74 and later to ????).

2. If the early type are used, can a centering type "puck" be machined to go into the rim, match a shoulder on the hub, and a centering or concentric flange be made to center the rim???? Clear as "mud"?

3. Where is the 5mm spacer located?? Next to the backside of the hub or inboard side of the bearing? Does the inner side(s) have to be canferred??? (beveled edge of the inside of the hub) Who makes or machines these spacers???

4. Sway-A-Way axles part #2420 (please check part number) which has 28 splines and is 20 and a half inches long. I have heard these axles referred to free floating type. Does this mean the CV joints move along the splines and are held in at each end with C-clips??

5. What size are the early CV joints and can later 911 ones be used, or possibly ones belonging to the 930, 944, Carrera, etc.??

6. Early 911 transaxle drive flanges??? or can later types be used???

7. I have not physically looked at the individual parts since they are still assembled in various stages. I have accumulated my parts from reading threads such as this one. I do need your opinion and comments on the above to make sure I am on the right track.

Thanks,
Steve Hurt

Posted by: J P Stein Jan 25 2009, 07:56 AM

I'm with Slits.....we old farts gotta hang together....with our uncleverness.

70 & early 71 914 hubs give the proper thickness to the hub flange and make the conversion a walk in the park.....just have them redrilled. I've been running 200+ hp with the stock set up for 8 years of serious thrashing and have never had a driveline failure...I prolly ought to knock wood here.

Posted by: Eric_Shea Jan 25 2009, 12:37 PM

Correct. The later "hubs" have that flange, not the stub axles. I personally like the early hub you mentioned as you do not need the spacer. From 1974 on Porsche used a deeper bearing on the 911. To compensate for this, the hub was machined on the backside. Those later hubs can be used but they need to be spaced back out to account for the early 911/914 bearing, as this thread addresses. I've never had an issue with wheel centering on all of the early 911's or 914's I've owned.



Not very clear at all; sorry. The early type hubs do not have a centering type puck. Just like a 914 hub that might be re-drilled. Again, I've never had an issue with centering but I know for a fact others like them. The later centering hubs should work with all 5-lug Fuchs. I have a feeling you're confusing "hubs" which your rotors hang on and your wheels bolt to, with "stub axles" which attach to the end of your axle and thread/slide through the hub.



Patrick Motorsport has them but they are hard to find in the catalog. These slip over the shaft on the hub. Paul made some as well but I don't think he wants to make them unless it's a bulk type thing. Not sure, never hurts to ask. Not sure why you're asking because, from your post, it looks like you have all the right parts needed.



Should be correct. The length is 20.25" just like a 914. These are referred to as "full-floating" by the off-road crowd. Big plus from what I understand, although I generally don't second guess Porsche engineers. They are held at each end by the clips into the CV's which are, obviously, bolted to the stub axles and the flanges. "My understanding" is the full-float allows the CV's to find a more natural center and allows them to handle the torque better.



Your limiting factor here will be the flange that attaches to the 914 version of the 901 transmission. The 911 used the 901 so, any of those flanges and CV's from the early 911 will work. Even the early 915's had a flange that would work. These flanges need to be coarse splined to fit into a 901/914 tranny. That's it. Later the spline count changed and they will not work with the 914/901. Simple rule of thumb is matching the entire system. 915 flanges work "through" 1976 "I believe". Look at the problem one of our members is currently having finding a 6 bolt 100mm flange. Get an entire system from a same year car and you should be fine. If you do go later than 1973, get spacers for the hub shaft. 108mm can be used but they will be tight with about 3.5mm on either side when in the control arm. Any 100mm CV should be able to handle the power you feed it but, again, others like the bigger stuff. I believe Paul is using 108's with his 3.6.



Explained above but, for further edification: 1969-1976 coarse spline should do the trick. (others weigh in if there's a year discrepancy)



If it's the list you posted, you have everything you need with the exception of the axles. Talk to Chuck at Elephant Racing, he's a good guy and he can supply the axles. Once you get your axles, plan on not much elbow grease but plenty of grease on the elbows.

See this thread for the BTDT side of things:

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=91963

Running 914 CV's with 200+ hp in an autocross environment is a "when" not "if" situation.

Posted by: Phoenix 914-6GT Jan 25 2009, 02:29 PM

Since this is on par with everything Eric has been posting if anyone is looking to do some axle/ CV stuff here is a good start:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/showthread.php?t=453379

Posted by: charliew Jan 25 2009, 02:34 PM

Wilhelm I'm not the answer man on the axle length but I've been thinking about it and it seems that the full extended position with the surface of the flanges would be the dimension a axle supplier would want to know. Where the axle is still fully inside the cv at the extended position. I'm not sure about room for the clips though if they are used, surely the axles don't just float between the flanges inner pocket. I would think that the distance from the flange surface to the depth of the flange pocket would be the room for the axle in the straight position.
I am watching for a smart guy's answer also.

On your control arm I went outside and looked at some 83-84 aluminum arm assemblies and the cv cavity is very shallow on them and also a bigger diameter, they might be 944 arms as I bought them for a dune buggy awhile back and don't remember the particulars. They do have the angle emer. brake expanders though. I got to looking at them and they maybe could be cut up and from the swing plate to the hub used and bolted to a modified or fabbed 914 arm. You might could even make it adjustable in ride heigth. They are very similiar to irs vw but will hold the 11 inch x 18 wheels I have. I don't think the cv's would interfear with those arms as the hole is real shallow.

Posted by: Eric_Shea Jan 25 2009, 02:34 PM

Whew... damn good price too. Think about it; that's $25.00 per CV!

Posted by: Eric_Shea Jan 25 2009, 02:37 PM

I'm not sure if it's a custom application but I do know a standard 914 axles is 20.25". I would simply measure the difference from stock to what you've created and add this to the 914 length.

Posted by: Wilhelm Jan 25 2009, 03:36 PM

Problem is:
930 tranny with sportomatic flanges and custom trailing arms. Just looking for a simple method to measure for axles without having to mess about with all the greasy cv joints while doing a mockup.

Posted by: shoguneagle Jan 25 2009, 04:28 PM

Thanks everyone, especially Eric, for the information. It cleared up a lot of things.l This thread is one for the books and needed if one is doing the conversion.

Next project 911 brakes and e-brakes. get ready, Eric!!

Thanks,
Steve

Posted by: Eric_Shea Jan 25 2009, 05:04 PM

I would get out the calculator again.

20.25" - (1/2 Difference in Width of the 930 w/Flanges over the 914/901 w/Flanges + The Difference in your new 928 spaced out hubs) = Your New Axle Length. This is assuming the 930 is wider.

You have specifics and only one variable... your new control arm.

914 Axle = 20.25"
901 Flange to Flange = X
930 Flange to Flange = Y
Difference in new control arm from stock = Z?

20.25"-(X-Y/2)+Z=New Axle Length



I know what you're getting at but I don't have a "tape measure" answer. If the 914 CV's sit relaxed vs. hyper or hypo extended then I would imagine the 20.25" number is a good baseline.



Happy to help.

Posted by: J P Stein Jan 25 2009, 06:20 PM

Do you have any empirical data to back that up or are you just vomiting up your version of conventional wisdom?

I have all the records for my 914 from day one. These lead me to believe the original CVs are still on the car. In 8 seasons of AX on very rough venues with your 200+ hp and more tire than most, I have never broken a drive line part. I have seen other car's suspensions collapse on theses venues....including a Porsche.

Sure, everything wears out but given proper maintainence our CVs are pretty damn tough. Most failures I read of are from those that didn't keep an eye on the CV joints to include grease, proper washers under the bolts, and proper torque. I have found loose bolts but got to them before any damage was done....that's part of the racin' game.

I did have the steering rack come loose 10ish years after fooling with it. I'll add that to my list of things to be looked after.

I am a firm believer in KISS and I ain't sellin' anything.

Posted by: Phoenix 914-6GT Jan 25 2009, 06:22 PM

I have seen 914 CVs go at an AX and Greg Fordahl likes to call them fuses so even though you have not had it happen I would guess they have been an issue. Most of the guys I know that have had it happen are people who do take great care of thier car and inspect it often.

Posted by: J P Stein Jan 25 2009, 06:43 PM

Which would lead me to believe I'm really lucky or really good.....pick one.

You did read the "most failures" part of my post, eh? When was the last time you put new bolts/schnor (sp?) washers/grease/gaskets on yours....and for about the 100th time over the years, 33 ft/lbs of torque. Fuses indeed....but somebody has to light em'....a little play on terms for today.

Posted by: Eric_Shea Jan 25 2009, 06:49 PM

Just vomit. My version of vomit but vomit nonetheless.



Me too. I sell 914 CV's... not 911 CV's or Sway-a-Way axles. In fact; I don't "sell" anything I've recommended in this thread.

Posted by: J P Stein Jan 25 2009, 06:54 PM

OK, that was a cheap shot, sorry.

Posted by: Phoenix 914-6GT Jan 25 2009, 06:54 PM

Well, one thing on doing the 944 CVs and other CV swaps you need to consider is what would you rather go? Would you rather break a $75 CV or a $1000+ box? In going with the 944CVs I feel that I still don't rish damage to the box but add a little more strength to the CVs and the hubs since I will get to use the hubcentric hubs rather than the 914-4 lug redrilled to five.

Posted by: PRS914-6 Jan 25 2009, 09:23 PM

My version of the vomit....but just my opinion and YMMV

I would not run stock 914 CV's with a big engine. I did it before and it left me stranded too many times. What happens is the cages break and the balls fall out maybe not at that moment but I assure you they will fall out at the most embarrassing moment you can imagine . I used 108 MM units with Sway-A-Way free floating race axles on the project car. NOTE: Porsche upgraded the CV's when power went up.

I prefer the hub-centric flanges. I don't like centering my wheels with a lug nut especially on a high speed car. Porsche quit that 35 years ago. My wheel barrow is OK for that though . If you had to pay to re-drill the flanges why not just get the right ones that are reinforced around the studs? Doesn't make sense to me.....Have I re-drilled flanges? Yep, but still prefer the 911 items for big HP applications.

The 5mm spacer for the hub-centric flanges is easy but it's not worth the cleanup mess to make 1 set. If I get 3 or more people wanting them I'll make them for $25.00 a set.

I don't subscribe to the "you need something weak in the system to break to save something else" Usually doing so cost more in the long run.

The above is just my opinion and not intended to insult anyone so please don't take it that way.

Posted by: Phoenix 914-6GT Jan 25 2009, 11:35 PM

This is why the mission to get everything for the 944 CVs with the 914 shafts that Andy did started. I pulled my engine for Winter projects and all and thought that since I had everything sitting on the shelf I should do this. I actually have the spacers you hade. I bought all the 911 stuff from Sean Conroy over a year ago and he had the spacers in there still in the envelope you sent them in . I actually thought I had early 911 hubs until I looked at all the threads that talked about the hubcentric. The PO bought the redrilled hubs and I have always worried about those when I have 9" of race rubber on there . So I guess in doing this I will be killing a few birds with one stone .

Posted by: Eric_Shea Jan 26 2009, 10:27 AM

Redrilled hubs will not fail. The issue is spline count vs. the proper stubaxle to get a real CV under there. There are no stub axles for larger CV's that fit a 914 hub. Redrilled hubs and stock CV's are an excellent choice for 914's up to 150hp.

Posted by: hcdmueller Jan 26 2009, 10:42 AM

Sign me up for the 5mm spacers. I want to go hub-centric on my car. I bought a set of repro 914/6 stubs on german ebay. Now I just need the spacer.

Posted by: Phoenix 914-6GT Jan 26 2009, 11:41 AM

I did not know that. Well, now that my engine will have more HP it is good I am doing this

Posted by: charliew Jan 27 2009, 09:25 PM

I'm a little shadtree but I think this will work. If it won't enlighten me please.
It seems like in Wilhelms case you could take the little additional length at the end of the axles for the c clips you gotta have that. Then let the control arms droop to the amount that the shocks will allow and measure from the bolt flange surface from the tranny flange to the stub flange at the center say the front or rear surface of the flange, If they are not parallel use the longer side. That length plus the c clip amount on each end is the extended length. Measure both sides in case the tranny is closer to one side than the other. Now make a broomstick, a piece of conduit or whatever that length. Set the control arm at the shortest position in relation to the tranny and see if the fake axle bottoms out in the pockets in the center of the flanges. While it's there mark where the inside of the cv's will be, where the boot flange sets on the cv. That should show how long the splines need to be from each end. If the fake axle bottoms out in the flanges it will have to be shorter and the amount of droop will need to be shortened or the tranny can be moved further rearward to allow for the longer axle.

Posted by: brp986s Jan 27 2009, 09:46 PM

100 mm CV stubs fit in 914-6 hubs, which means they fit in 914-4 hubs, less 1 lug, right?

Posted by: Eric_Shea Jan 28 2009, 11:03 AM

Nada

100mm stubs "do" fit 914-6 hubs (which are actually early 911 hubs) because, inside that hub, the 100mm stub axles and the hub share the same 911 slpine count.

The 914-4, on the other hand, does not share the 911 spline count inside it's hub so... only 914 stub axles fit inside 914 hubs, hence the popular and least expensive conversion to redrill the hub for 5-lug; no other changes are needed to the drive line.

Posted by: 96744 Jan 28 2009, 05:12 PM

I'm in for a set of spacers. Let me know payment specifics if this goes through.

Posted by: Eric_Shea Jan 28 2009, 07:32 PM

I am too... there's 3.

Posted by: J P Stein Jan 28 2009, 09:10 PM

One look at the lug nuts and receptacles for same on 911 Fuch wheels (amongst others) tells one what centers the wheels. Load that into your wheel barrow.

I do use the early flange hubs and recommend them to anyone that asks....don't think much of the later ones for a five lug drill job. Tho they seem to work, I don't trust them.

Posted by: shoguneagle Jan 29 2009, 08:49 AM

You can add me to the list for #4. Just let me know where to send the funds and when.

Steve Hurt

Posted by: PRS914-6 Jan 29 2009, 06:53 PM

I don't get it....

Just so everyone is clear on this. Lug nut centering will NEVER be as good as a hub centric wheel set up. The hub fits tightly in the machined hole in the center of the wheel to perfectly locate it. The wheel can not be moved off center by worn lug nuts, poorly machined lug nuts, sloppy threads on the lug nuts and various other factors including a poorly drilled 5 lug pattern (even factory ones) or galled and worn lug nut sockets in the wheels. Lug nuts have some looseness on the threads and I have seen the ball portion of many lug nuts wobble as you spin them on. Is this how you want to center your high performance wheels? Will it work? Sure. I'm just saying that hub centric is a much better way to center a wheel than lug nuts. I'll stick to my wheel barrow......

Next week I'll try to machine up some spacers and will post when finished. Got to gather up some material.....

Posted by: Phoenix 914-6GT Jan 29 2009, 09:30 PM

Hey Paul. I just pressed in my hubs using the spacers you made . Fits perfectly


Attached image(s)

Posted by: charliew Feb 20 2009, 10:31 PM

I forgot to anti up for these. Any left? Or I can wait for the next batch.

Posted by: Eric_Shea Feb 20 2009, 11:33 PM

I need another set... I think that's 6 Paul.

Posted by: hcdmueller Feb 21 2009, 06:39 AM

I was just about to ask again. I am still in for a set.

Posted by: strawman Feb 21 2009, 06:09 PM

Hi Paul --

I need a set, too. I'm just down the hill from you (I'm in Davis), so I could come pick up my set. Of course, that would permit me to drool over your car again!!!

Geoff

Posted by: PRS914-6 Feb 21 2009, 06:42 PM

Sorry I have not got to them yet. Anyone that knows me is aware that I am a ski freak and I have had a guest from Switzerland here for the last 10 days showing him California skiing. Should be able to get to them this week....Sorry for the delay

Sorry Geoff, We'll have to put tape over your mouth if you are gonna drool on my paint

Posted by: Eric_Shea Feb 21 2009, 06:54 PM

Then you'll just have to deliver them yourself.

Posted by: PRS914-6 Mar 2 2009, 12:41 PM

Just an update......I had to order the steel for the spacers but it has arrived in Sacramento. I should get it today or tomorrow and have them finished a few days later.....sorry for the delay

Posted by: strawman Mar 2 2009, 07:29 PM

Kewl! PM me when they're done so I can drive up the hill to pick 'em up. You going to Taco Tuesday in Elk Grove tomorrow evening?
Geoff

Posted by: hcdmueller Mar 3 2009, 01:43 AM

I will be away from the internet for the next few weeks. I still want a set. PM me when they are done and I will get the payment to you when I get back online.

Posted by: PRS914-6 Mar 5 2009, 06:36 PM

I have 8 sets of spacers made. $25.00 + $5.00 for a padded envelope, postage and Paypal fees for USA deliveries. Just Paypal me and I'll ship them out. You can Paypal me at paul@sayegh.org and please tell me your 914World name so I can keep track. Those that showed interest above will get priority.

When you install them make sure the chamfered side goes against the radius on the hubs and the flat side against the bearing. Pretty obvious but don't want any disasters.

Posted by: charliew Mar 5 2009, 08:53 PM

Thanks Paul, pp sent

Posted by: hcdmueller Mar 6 2009, 08:41 AM

Good timing for me. I am off the grid on monday. Paypal Sent.

Posted by: strawman Mar 7 2009, 04:49 PM

Money (via Paypal) and PM sent. Thanks for helping with this, Paul!
Geoff

Posted by: BIGKAT_83 Mar 7 2009, 05:58 PM

Paypal sent.

Thanks again.

Posted by: PRS914-6 Mar 10 2009, 11:26 AM

Charles, Christopher, Robert and Geoffrey, your spacers shipped this AM.

4 sets left.

Posted by: jimsfolly Mar 11 2009, 11:57 PM

I'd like to get a set of the spacers.... will send paypal as soon as I can get my account repaired after a hack attack...

thanks,
jim

Posted by: Richard Casto Mar 12 2009, 06:45 AM

Paul,

Payment sent via paypal for one set just a few minutes ago. Just let me know if I am too late for one of the four left.

FYI.. My screen name and my real name are one in the same.

Richard

Posted by: jaxdream Mar 12 2009, 02:06 PM

Paul , it seems that I have stirred up some buisness for you . I got a set from one of the mtrsports compys not gonna slam them , heck anybody can turn out a off spec product every now and then, just rather disappointed -5.87 mm on one side 5.07 mm on the other - will not use , just gonna put em up , restoking fee 25% not worth return and hassle. Keep em coming !!!

Jaxdream

Posted by: PRS914-6 Mar 14 2009, 01:58 PM

Richard and James, your spacers were shipped today. My response will be better when ski season is over.

Erik, you had wanted 3 sets and Mel wanted one. No payment from either so the last 2 sets available to anyone who needs\wants them.