I am finally starting on the build thread for the IMSA 914. This is a 1971 914-4
that was bought in 1975 or 6 as a used car and turned into an IMSA GTU car.
It is a well crafted but not big budget car with a lot of clever touches that helped
it to beat a lot of more famous and undoubtedly better financed teams.
My wife and I plan to restore the car to racing condition and then enjoy the
heck out of it without abusing it any further (its clearly had a hard life).
Our priorities are (1) make it safe and legal for current vintage rules (2) keep
it original as practical (3) keep it period correct, in that order. We also want to
avoid over restoring it too much, but it is easy to understand the temptation
to cad plate, power coat, and perfectly repaint everything. I think this last issue
will be the biggest, other than going broke or insane first (either one would
be a short trip at this point).
I plan to post way too many photos, the best quality I can, until people flame
me big time to stop. I also expect you, yes YOU!, to help me figure out what
to do and give me ideas and comments. I may not always do everything people
want, but I will consider all ideas. I'm really just a novice restorer and I know
I can't do this without your help.
OK, so screw the BS, lets see some pictures.
Competing at Sebring as a 4-cylinder (changed to a six soon after).
T.C., who found the car in a barn, passes it on to me (what luck!).
I had to turn to a close friend for the financing, but it worked out.
Huge ATL 500A fuel cell. The hood just closes over this.
TC, URY914, SMG914, and I working on my Explorer flat six conversion.
Fiberglass flares and paintwork need a little bit of work.
Wife: Are you sure we are buying the right car? Why don't we just buy this one
from T.C., it actually has an engine inside the car.
I have started to dissassemble the car so it can be soda blasted and I have tons
of pictures to post.
So what do you all think?
John
Post all the pictures you would like and, If you'd like to share ALLL of them without being to crazy just put them all in a indexed online album anyone can look at like on photobucket
Oh and GODSPEED good sir
Cool project. Post lots of pics!
This is gonna be awesome...
THe whole over restoration thing is a difficult one. Your already soda blasting and that's the beginning of the cycle. I'm assuming you've already determined that the car needs significant work, so why not aim high and bring it back to the condition is was when it started its racing life. If you want to drive, I think that you should buy a driver. If you get a car to restore, it should be done with the most perfection you can manage.
Just my 2cents. Then again, I can walk right past a race car, but a restored car will stop me in my tracks.
Encouragement is right here across the State. Advise is Free.
T.C.
Thanks everyone for the encouragement.
Billy: I think what I am trying to avoid is making it more perfect than it ever was
during its racing career. The two guys who ran the car built it to be a practical
racer and never a show car wth perfect paint, etc. I am sure when I get done
it will be better than it ever was when it was a race car, its just a question of how
much better. A lot of the fabrication has a quick and dirty look to it. It has a lot
of surface rust that needs to go so there is no question of saving the original paint.
John
John, I told you I would dig up a picture of a Mazda RX-7 Cooler I had in 914 racecar. Also there is one on eBay from AutoAtlanta right now sitting at $25 with the reserve not met.
T.C.
Did you take detailed photos of the graphics? Do you care?
That's the only thing I'd add... Godspeed.
Cool, and take/post all the pictures you want, the more the better.
Best of luck on the project!
I did a car with hand painted graphics and used trace paper , then the sign painter redid em exact.
That's an awesome project
That will be a sick project!
So... Where the hell are the pictures
Just kidding. We can't wait to see your progress
The Sponsor was Le Trianon Jewelry Corp - 3807 NW 7th Street, Miami, FL - Owner, Alfred Curi. It was near the Airport & Flagler Dog Track
T.C.
John, Did you get ahold of Manual Cueto Jr.?
No, T.C., I have not done that yet. I have worked every day since I picked up
the car from you. The big crunch should end in 10 more days or so. Then I plan
to take off a few weeks and make some progress.
Here are some more pictures. I got a lot of great advice on taking pictures from
people, not all of which I have been able to implement yet, but most of these are
ok. First thing I did was to take apart the fuel system.
Here is an oil filter that was loose inside the car. Is this company still around?
It looks like a stainless screen filter, do people use these on the 914-6s still?
Notice the dual fuel pumps, filters, and relays. These connect to a fuel pressure
regulator and then to the normal fuel line in the tunnel. Don't know if the plastic
lines are in there still.
This is the custom made oil tank. You can see the fuel pressure regulator, which
is bolted to its side. It has a range of 1-6 pounds so the car had to be running
carbs. Geez, I sound like I actually know something about 914s, ha!
I know just enough now to realize how much I have to learn.
John
John, That Par filter was actually in-line for the tranny cooler at the rear of the car. The lines were all brittle and when I was stripping the trunk I took that filter off.
The best I could tell the car was running a Twin-Plug motor due to the twin ignition boxes & Coils that are attached to the firewall where the passenger seat would be. I'm sure they were running carbs.
T.C.
COOL!
More pictures!
Thanks T.C. for the pictures. You know I will be calling you with questions.
Here is the dash area. Notice the old halon fire system. I am a little nervous
about disconnecting it. I guess the worst is that it triggers and sprays halon,
which I think it pretty inert and non-staining.
Weird roll over fuel cut off device which uses ping pong balls.
Twin coil ignition system. I'd like to run a twin plug six motor but I guess
this is much more expensive than a single plug? Also notice the dzus fastened
motor access plate in the firewall. For safety, I will either weld this back up
or install some better sealed panel.
Wide, fiberglass flares are pretty cracked and beat up. I think I will cut them
off while the car is being blasted. There is a lot of rust underneath the fiberglass.
I plan to repair the flares and reattach them once the car is expoxy primered.
I used to shape and laminate surf boards, so this should not be too hard. The
flares were rivetted and glassed originally. I think I will just glass them to
eliminate the rust holes created by the rivets.
John
Found some wide, three piece Gotti wheels with Porsche center sections and caps.
I think T.C. had some pictures of 914s from the same era running Gottis.
These suckers are wide. Tires have no wear but may be too old to use.
Rear tires are rubbing even with 1" spacers.
I haven't decided if I like the red accents or not.
John
Time to pull the fuel cell.
A vintage racing rats nest. I'll be saving this to sell on ebay soon.
These rats knew how to live. There had to be 50 snail shells in there. They
must have taken them back to their lair for some tasty dinners.
Cleaned it up wearing a respirator and gloves. Don't want any of the humma
humma (sp?) mouse borne virus another member posted about.
There are a lot of holes and pieces cut out of the front to make room for various
things. I'd like to see something besides the fiberglass bumper between the
front of the car and the fuel cell.
John
If anyone out there has pictures of this car from any event, I would love to have
a copy and find out what you know about it.
I'd also like to see more pictures of period 914 race cars, especially the privateer
run cars.
That is it for tonight.
John
This is sweet, keep on posting them pics!
I will be following your rebuild you have work to do. GOOD LUCK
Pulled the fuel cell and checked it out. Might need some work.
The fuel cell has a very sturdy rubber bladder filled with foam in it, or maybe not.
I guess that is what 33 years of soaking in racing fuel will do to something.
Looks like it was bought in 1976 and is a 500A model.
I'm pretty sure the receipt for the cell came with the car. Do you think ATL will
honor the warranty still???
Back of the front bumper shows layers of fiberglass repairs and bondo. Sorry
about the poor photo quality. You can also see the mounting brackets for the
main head lights.
John
I screwed up the pictures in that last post about 4 times and had to keep editing
it. Sorry about that if you saw it when it was de-ranged.
John
The pics are great keep them comming.
I'd send that Fuel Cell back to ATL for warranty replacement
Don't laugh, I am going to try it...
I read somewhere how they helped refurbish a cell for some other race
car restoration.
John
I need some help from you all. I am planning to use braided steel lines and AN
fittings for plumbing the car, for safety reasons. What dash sizes will I need to
use for the oil and fuel lines. I will be using a carburated six engine.
I bought a used RX7 oil cooler. I'll take it to a radiator shop to be cleaned
and tested and get the right size fittings welded on.
Can the normal steel brake lines be used? I will probably replace all the brake
lines throughout the car.
I would like to start collecting the fittings for this. I want to get some reusable
AN fittings (used) to save some money, but I will use all new hose. How many
feet of each kind of hose (approximately) will I need?
Thanks,
John
John, I'll look through my receipts on my last racecar build to see how much Steel-braid lines I bought and I'll see what extras fittings I have in my box.
This is a picture off Glenn's site. I heard he came by to visit a couple of weeks ago.
T.C.
John,
Have you thought about the engine yet? I know nothing about IMSA- was the car raced as a 4 or 6 cyl?
Keep up the great work and keep the photos coming!
KP
T.C. Glenn came by and took a bunch of pictures and had a lot of helpful advice
about how to restore the car. What a knowledgeable guy!
Kevin - The car was originally raced with a 4 cylinder. That lasted part of one
season. Not sure if they blew up the 4 or just wanted more power. Later they
ran with a twin plug 2.5 liter 6. This allowed them to stay in the GTU class,
which was for under 2.5 liters. If someone wanted to donate a high performance
4 (like a big Raby) I could see using that. Most likely, I will use a 2.7 or
smaller 6, how hopped up depends on budget. I have a ton of receipts for the
parts used to build the car which I am trying to organize into a chronological
story of how they built the car, then what broke and was replaced when, etc.
I am going to post a summary of this when I get it all done.
John
About 4 years ago I bought a 2.4L "T" engine that last ran 10 years ago. It turned over OK . My son installed it in a 914 with center mount and all the dry sump plumbing. We took the MFI off and installed 40MM webers. If I remember correctly it got 160HP at the rear wheels. A 2.4 T is rated at 140 flywheel. So we took it apart, Polished Rods, dovetailed bearing bosses and a lightened flywheel. Then the surprise. The pistons were 87.5 MM Mahle pistons. This was a 2.5L IMSA engine. Two of the aluminum cylinders had chunks out of them from boring out the stock cylinders where the stock 2.4L head gasket goes. Too thin. Our solution was to have custom "nickies" made. I have all the reciepts for a total rebuild including CE case refinishing and ballancing. Are you interested in a period correct 2.5L engine? You would have to speak to my son who rebuilt the motor to get the full scope of work. Al
Al,
I would be very interested in an IMSA motor. Is that your son Blake I need
to talk to about it? Funds are pretty tight at the moment so it kind of depends
on how much you all have into it.
John
I was thinking these would be cool on your car.
Attached image(s)
Damn, what are those off, a Boeing 747?
And John, I can't find the receipt on how much braided line I bought. I know I just saw that receipt a couple of weeks ago. Maybe I threw it away?
T.C.
Those are some beefy looking calipers. Can you tell us anything more about
them? Were they made for racing 911s or street?
I have Eric looking our for some s-calipers for me right now. If you have
seen his 908 brake caliper thread, you will remember his concept for adding the
quick brake pad change retainer to be more like the 908 calipers. This lets you
change brake pads without any tools. I would really like a set of real 908 calipers,
but for 3x the price of the rebuilt s calipers that may be a while, not to mention
trying to find a set for sale.
The 908 calipers had room for thicker pads for endurance racing. I would hate
to machine a pair of real s calipers to make them look like 908s. If enough people
were interested, it might be worth making a new casting of the 908s.
What do you all think?
John
Do you mean front caliper or bumper? I don't know Ralph.
John
Doesn't Bernie Buschen have some 908 calipers available for sale??? If you are really serious about going that direction. I wouldn't imagine they are even reasonably priced, things like that are ULTRA rare.
Although now is probably not the time to contact him as there was a pretty serious fire at his shop over the weekend that injured his son pretty badly.
Perhaps someone from the northwest can chime in on this one???
Peter
http://www.roadglue.com/forum/showthread.php?t=521
!!!!
It would be really cool if you reproduced the old paint scheme when you repaint. (Yes, very cool, but again them's not my $$$ being spent)
Good luck!
Konrad
I have seen Bernie's thread on 908 calipers. I have heard such things run about
$3000 for a set, when you can find them. Current plan is s-calipers.
I do plan to reproduce the paint scheme as closely as possible. I will make some
full size tracings of it before it gets blasted. I will be painting it myself and will
most likely use single stage paint, which is what the car has on it now.
The black pin stripes are actually plastic pin striping tape, and not paint.
I am shooting for the "just been painted and polished in 1976" look, rather
than $500 car with a $10,000 paint job look. I am sure it will end up looking
much better than the car ever did back in the day, but still have some
character. Reading some of the 906 restoration threads from gunnar racing
has given me some ideas about how race cars where prepared by the factory.
If you have never looked at www.gunnarracing.com, do it, it is a treasure trove
of pictures, information, and Porsche resto porn.
I have the reciepts with paint codes from the hardware store where they bought
the paint. They are not Porsche codes, probably just the local store's brand codes.
I think the paint for the car was about $40 in 1976...
John
Any updates John?
Here's an idea to update your Rocking Chair (Termites can be bad)
T.C.
That thing is *awesome*
Talk about a good find. Please paint it how it was, and make it look like a nice racecar.
No need for 10k paint, just clean and period correct.
TC: I like the metal rocker, no termites or rot to worry about, just need to paint
it well to protect from rust.
I have not done anything on the IMSA car for a while. Been spending all my
time getting my other 914 finished up. I am anxious to get back to work on
the IMSA car though. The break has given me time to learn more and hopefully
avoid making too many dumb mistakes on it.
John
I am looking forward to the restart of the restoration.
I have always wished to restore a car with history.
Good luck!
get to work on this car
Hey Glenn,
Good to hear from you again! I need to debug my starter and add a
full flow oil filter and my blue car should be running....
Then I will go back to the IMSA car in a big way. I need to start collecting
parts for it again. I did order some repro 908 front brake calipers from a
certain world member...
John
Here is some motivation, I finished one of my IMSA GTU cars (the Meaney/ Hendricks 914) and passed tech! I am ready to race it next spring!
Attached thumbnail(s)
Glenn, stick some Meats in the rear
T.C.
spacers
Glenn I have some 100mm studs if you need them.
T.C.
Glenn,
That looks great, you most be stoked! Do you have a build thread for the
car?
John
T.C. Thanks for the offer, I already have a set, just need to install
John, I put the car together in about 6 day so I really didn't document so well
http://www.roadglue.com/forum/showthread.php?t=807
A picture Eric sent me today of the 908 repro calipers he is building for the car.
These will be keeping the 914-6 GT rear calipers company that I got from TC.
I have ordered a rebuilt pedal set from Bruce Stone for the car as well.
With the Rockin 914 running now I plan to hit this car hard this spring.
The IMSA car has one big advantage over my other 914s: it is inside a garage. I
am planning for AC for this summer and maybe a little garage mahal style
remodeling.
John
John, I still have that 2.5L GTU engine, not a duel plug but has everything else. Blake and I both have other projects and are more motivated to selling it. You would have to speak to Blake since he built it. PM me if interested. Al
That's some serious PORN right there. Deserves it's own thread in the SandBox
I know of another GT build that needs these... (besides mine!)
I Don't Need No Stinkin Brakes
Unless - I ever get this car back
Been stripping the car getting it ready for some repairs. Removed the old
fiberglass fenders. They were pretty trashed and had been repaired multiple
times. I will be getting new flares of the same style.
Its pretty rusty under the old flares.
The front end was destroyed in a crash and cobbled back together using angle
iron and riveted pieces of metal. I want to replace the front valence panel, front
trunk floor, and other parts the right way and am looking for the necessary metal
from a parted out car.
Will need to replace the floor pans.
Can't wait to get back to hard core welding. I need to get AC for my garage as
this summer has been brutal in forida.
John
John,
What do ya think, a month maybe 2 to get it to the paint shop?
I was thinking maybe a few hours and probably 3-4 tubes of JB Weld.
John
Nevermind my post on your other thread, I thought I had clicked on this one.
You aren't kidding about needing A/C in the garage. I added 2 more fans and still can't go out there. After the coldest Winter in history, July & August have been the hottest in history.
T.C.
Looking at the struts and sway bars on the car. Does anyone recognize this sway
bar arm? For some reason, RSR comes to my mind.
Struts are too rusty and dirty to tell what they are without cleaning. They do have
3.5" brake caliper spacing. Not sure if the struts are salvageable. I sprayed some
etching primer in there to prevent further rust.
Looks like the front right fender was replaced at some point. Kind of a hack job.
The whole front end was wrecked at some point and replaced with this aluminum
bar. I plan to replace the front trunk floor and front valence panel, then add a
GT style radiator and shroud.
I think the car started its racing career more like a normal GT and got franken14ed
later after some accident. I think the car will be much nicer if I return it to the way
a 914GT would have looked.
John
More hideous rust and damage pictures. The front trunk floor is basically falling
apart. They cut a big hole in the bulkhead in front of the oil tank for some reason,
maybe cooling because there is another hole in the floor under the oil tank?
They added these brackets and mounted driving lights that aim through holes in the
bumper. I will keep this and mount some new lights here.
I would probably be better off just replacing the entire front end of the car right in
front of the shock towers. Not sure if that is a realistic plan. I am afraid the front
suspension mounting points are shot.
Will probably piece it all back in as I can find rust free replacement sheet metal.
Hint hint. Will pay for time and shipping.
John
Been planning how the oil system will work. This is the oil tank that came with the
car. It looks like it was custom made. I am pretty sure I have seen other oil tanks
with the same shape and in the same location as the one in this car.
Here is where the tank fits in the car.
The tank has internal plates that slope down to a hole in the center. I think the
-20 fitting on the side is where oil would enter the tank and drain down into the
lower portion. The -20 fitting on the bottom is the return line to the engine. It
runs into the passenger area then into the long and out into the engine bay.
I am guessing the two fittings on the top are for engine breathers?
I am new to /6 engines and am trying to plumb the mysteries of the oil system. I
think I can use a 993 oil filter console on the engine to replace the engine mounted
oil cooler. I think the oil scavenge pump will feed oil to the front of the car into a
thermostat. The thermostat will either feed the front mounted oil cooler and then
into the side fitting of the oil tank, or it will send the oil directly into the oil tank.
From there its out the bottom of the tank and back to the pressure pump on the engine.
I'm thinking of buying a new oil cooler for the car. I have an old RX7 cooler I could
have cleaned and tested but /6 engines are too expensive to screw up with a used
$50 oil cooler.
Any advice or suggestions on the above would be appreciated.
John
John here is a diagram of oil system with cooler.
Your oil tank is most likely custom as was the norm for Private IMSA teams.
The oil would generally come into the tank at a higher level and drip thru a screen to remove air from the oil. The scavenge side of the oil pump will push the oil thru the cooler and into the tank.
Thanks Glenn, I was hoping you would chime in.
Do you think the top fittings were for engine breathers?
John
You're doing a great job John. This project is so cool to follow. It will take a lot to get'er done...But, in the end you're gonna have a great car with excellent stories to tell of how it came to be!
Thats an old H&H sway bar
I might have seen that car run at Sebring when I was a kid. Have to look through all my old photos.
Funny it has a speedometer in it, most race cars discard that.
It say's 914-4 on the front bumper ? you metioned it had a six?
Neat project, keep digging !
They ran it as a 4 cylinder for a while and then went to a twin plug 6.
Any period photos of the car would be greatly appreciated!
John
I wonder if the arms would fit on the new GPR bar? I'll have to take it out
and check it it fits the stock sway bar arms.
John
John,
Anything you do to this car will be an improvement on they way it was patched together by the original owner. It seems he was more concerned about being able to make the race than he was about winning the race. You could restore it to the period correct race car but that would be just a pieced together backmarker. It's cool that you have a former IMSA 914 but you run the risk of over restoring it just by giving it a decent paint job.
I hope you understand what I saying and I don't get flamed by those that don't.
Paul
Paul,
You have really put your finger on the problem. Just vacumming the sand out
of the car was over restoring it. I have convinced myself it did not start its
racing career this rusted out and patched together. With that rationalization
in place I am shooting for restoring it more to the early part of its career,
when it actually had a more complete set of 914 sheetmetal.
I am also trying to make it a working and safe race car, so all the paper thin
rusted stuff has got to go. They did not use braided covered hose in most
places but I will in the interest of safety. It is basically was a non-functional
wreck when I got it so leaving it as it was did not have much point.
I am sure the car will end up nicer than it ever was, but not as blatantly over
restored as some cars end up. I read recently that a 70s Corvette right off the
factory floor would only score about 77 in a concours today.
If people have advice or opinions then please post away.
John
John,
I'm glad you understand where I'm coming from. This was not a factory 914GT that ran at LeMans. It was more like a guys toy that happened to own a gas station in Miami. I wonder what would come back if you ran the vin# through the police data base?
......I think you have a great project there....and properly restored would be a welcome sight in vintage racing, which you would enjoy immensely....side note, I once looked for a formula super vee ( air cooled) which was in original condition., never found one. What you have found in that 914-4 is a diamond in the rough., and may well turn out to be valuable if you restore it properly. I would say that you should not do a "down and dirty" or "cheap" restoration. Take your time and do it properly. It could be way more valuable, restored, than you could imigine.
Thanks very much for all the comments. It helps me to decide what to do.
This car has a lot of value to me and I see myself as a caretaker. So it will
get used in appropriate events but not abused nor will it be locked away in my
motor racing heritage museum (i.e. my garage). Wouldn't it be cool if a couple
regular guys (like the original owners were) could build still build a car and
compete in the ALMS/IMSA with the big boys, which is what this car represents.
I think for a lot of closet racers, this is a common dream.
My plan is to make it look like it did when it ran Sebring, Daytona, etc. on the
outside but with the rust repaired, new components that would not have been
out of place in the late 70s, and safer than it was. So it will get the same exact
paint scheme, same type of fiberglass flares, I will repair the original front
bumper, repair the fiberglass roof, use the original fuse and switch panel,
use the custom made oil tank, use a GT style front oil cooler like they had,
use Gotti wheels like they did, keep the original roll cage, original tranny
cooler and pump, 2 fuel pumps, 2 ignition set ups, etc. No carbon fiber.
Whereever I can keep the original parts I will, and where I can't I will get similar
new or used parts. I do plan to make it safer so I will use braided fuel lines, etc.
but am looking for nickel plated fittings rather than blue and red aeroquip fittings,
which they had only a few of.
It is interesting how many companies are still in business that made parts
in the 1970s, like Koni, ATL, mocal, holley, bilstein, bosch, etc.
I could have kept it exactly as I got it, but it would only be a rusty paperweight
then, not a living, running car. I plan to bring the car back to life without over
doing it, or using stuff they never had, unless for safety.
I was also thinking we are only seeing what it looks like 30 years after they
quit racing it. Who knows when the front end crash happened that removed
so much of the original metal and caused a lot of rust to happen. It was run
in SCCA racing after the original builders sold it (they moved on to 911s).
Sorry for the long ramble, I am actually trying to keep this fun.
Today my buddy Sean (the Prawn) was over and we built a stand to get the
car off the ground so we could remove the suspension and repair the front
end damage.
You can see how little was left of the front of the car. A couple world members
are helping me out with parts cut from wrecked cars that I will post when they
get here.
Getting some serious help from Chris Foley, which is hugely appreciated.
John
IMHO, just like a 914/6 it comes down to the VIN number. If you've got a proven race history, then I think as long as you rebuild it with the original bodywork, original paint scheme, etc you can't go wrong. There is obviously a lot of value and beauty in a 'survivor', but some cars just aren't in good enough condition to fill that role. For those cars that aren't 'survivors' a restoration is a reasonable solution.
I think you're doing great stuff here, and I can't wait to see the project evolve.
This car is more of a preservation not a true restoration. Which is probably the right thing to do.
If the car had won races or a championship, or was piloted by a notable driver, I would say the only choice would be to do a precise restoration to its former condition as raced.
In this case I think the restoration only needs to be period correct and accurate from an external visual perspective.
A preservation would be to repair/retain as many original components as possible without alteration. I don't see doing it this way as adding value to this car. No one remembers the car except as an also ran.
John, I'm glad your at work on this , can't wait til I see it again.
I wish I could have kept it, but I don't have the Mad Skills that you have, so it is in the right place. I think my friend over in New Smynra still has the Gotti's that I used to have that I know came off a different IMSA 914-6
And yes, the Jewelry store was a sponsor. John has a bunch of pictures ( & Logbook) of the car in period ( Would always like more)
If you have trouble with the sway bar, I may have one, I also have a set of era Correct wide Centerlines..
Thanks Byron. The bar is kind of rusty, I will post some pictures and see if people
think it is still usable. The arms and ends are good, just the bar.
I think I saw that yellow car on craigslist. I missed those wheels, it looked like
there were few good parts on that car.
I have some period gottis but they are maybe too flashy looking.
John
Starting on IMSA 914/6 number 2 (in the background) this winter, hoping to race it in the spring.
The wooden stand will probably get you through the build. I built a wooden dolly for my 911 project just to move it in, out, in and across the garage while the jig was being assembled. Broke the minute before I slid the car onto the jig, but that was only because of the casters.
Keep working. It can't be that hot down there now.
John were the fenders all fiberglass or fiberglass on steel?
Glenn,
They are pure fiberglass. They just left 2-3 inches around the edges to glue the
fiberglass to. All the fenders had been damaged and patched with layers of glass
and bondo.
I think we have the same Gottis. Mine have center caps and are painted
differently than yours but they are the same otherwise.
I was thinking of ditching the center caps because you are not allowed to run
them in races now and I am guessing it was the same back then. I was also
going to repaint them in a frosted silver color. Maybe I should paint the centers
gold tone like yours.
What is the history of your other IMSA 914-6?
John
Pedal area is well ventilated. This provides needed driver cooling in long races.
Can't wait to fix this. Been jonsing for some real welding.
Plus I can actually work under a roof. What luxury.
You can see in the background the first patch on this car that welded on
yesterday.
John
Been ordering a lot of parts lately. I got these reinforced rear control arms with
911 e-brake set up from Eric Shea a while back. They include Chris Foley's
e-brake cable extensions. They are just beautiful to look at.
I also got a set of Koni adjustable rear shocks with coil over perches.
The front struts also contain Koni adjustables, which are pretty shot. They
compress but don't spring back. I am thinking of having them rebuilt, I saw
a thread on here from someone about it, I think it was Eric Shea.
John
John,
I went with a smaller fuel cell even though it is not the original, I do not need 22 gallons in a race and I was able to move it back 6" and lower it 4"
first picture 22 gallon fuel cell
second picture 12 gallon fuel cell
Glenn,
I am doing the same thing, getting a 10 gallon fuel cell and adding more bracing
to the front of the car. I am sticking with dual fuel pumps in the same location
as before with dual relays controlled from switches in the cockpit.
I am keeping all the original fiberglass fenders and buying new ones.
Got new restoration design floors, including the special they are doing now on
the rear floor, reinforcing tracks, and seat mounts. A great deal, I ordered 2
sets (1 for the red car). I think it took less than a week between ordering and
having them on my front door.
Just gotta flip the car and weld these puppies in.
John
T.C.
I have a 2.5 motor in the works.
I think the Gottis I have were also used in IMSA racing. I saw a similar set
with no tires on ebay for $2000. I scored getting these for $500 with new tires.
I am thinking of an early 911 for my next project. I have a friend who wants
the red 914 and wants to restore it. We'll see because I'd like to get rid of it
and make room for a new car...
John
Flip Your 914 the CSOB - Redux
Front suspension mount points are toast so I could not rock this car on my 914
rocker. I had to flip it a different way to replace the floor pans. The car has a
solid roll cage in it which gave me an idea.
I wasn't sure the garage was wide enough to allow for a roll over. Some careful
calculations followed. Car is 150 CM high times pi (mmm pie!) um carry the two,
think about 69, oh f*ck it! Just push it over and see what happens!!!
Just to make it look dramatic. Car is actually quite stable this way.
Catch it with an ATV jack. My wife actually helped with the whole thing.
Gently lower the car down. Did not dent the side at all.
Best East Coast 914 Choppers glare.
Now the old floors can come out.
John
Let's open this tin can!
MMM, tasty!
A little cleanup, a few spot welds to drill out and I will make MUSR 2015.
John
You are a Mad Dog !
I mean that in a good way
Hope you can get it rolled back over when you're done!
Great post and great project! Best of luck!
Konrad
You nutcase!
> You are a Mad Dog !
Its been mentioned before.
Drilled out the spot welds and removed the old floors. Had some help from Sean
and his friend Mike, which saved a lot of time.
Removed all the rusty tubes. The clutch tube is still in good shape. Will put a new
accelerator cable tube back in and weld up all the holes. Will reinforce the clutch
tube while I am in here.
Started cleaning the dash area which has lots of holes, rust and damage.
Much easier to get to this with the car upside down.
After the floors, still have to fix the hell hole, front trunk, and front fascia.
John
Damn, kudos for rolling the car in your garage...
Still have some work ahead I see..... but looking good!!
Thanks Randall. The whole front of the car is rusted out or I could have used a
more traditional rotisserie. This was the only way I could figure out to get access
to the floors.
I am loving following your build. You are taking it to a level we don't usually
see on here.
John
Test fitting the new floors.
You can see how rotten the front of the car is.
Floors are mostly welded in!
John
Here is the replacement piece that Terry (914xprs) cut off a parts car for me. He
had it to me less than a week after I talked to him about it, including shipping.
A good guy to work with.
It had a cut out for an air conditioner, which does not matter to me because I am
putting in a front oil cooler anyway. It will be fun surgically replacing the old stuff
with this. Terry also sent me a new headlight bucket to replace one which was
shot.
I will need to build some kind of jig to preserve the suspension mounting point
positions when I remove the front floor. I wanted to replace the floors first to
have something solid to weld the jig to.
John
Ask Hontec if you can borrow his.
That thought had occurred to me.
I may actually have to use metal to build this jig so it does not warp.
I spent a lot of time derusting, treating, and etching primering the innards of the
tunnel. I also welded in a new accelerator tube before closing it up. These guys
loved to drill big holes everywhere so I have been welding up the ones I will not
need. Fortunately, I have the same size hole saw they used so I can make
patches for their holes easily.
John
Eventually it was stored in a barn, but the front end must have been wet at some
Point for a long time. All the nooks and crannies were full of leaves and snail shells.
I must have found 100 snail shells in the car. When I opened up the longs to fix
A rust hole they were full of leaves.
The back end of the car is in good shape for a 914.
John
Built a jig out of scrap tubing to locate the front suspension points.
The jig is welded to the longs and floor pans. It is reinforced with some angle
iron to keep it from bending vertically.
I measured the suspension location points and they look like they are pretty
good. The jig was built using plates bolted to the suspension points. I left
the front cross member in because it does a good job of maintaining the
relative locations of 4 of the suspension points.
I welded the plates connecting to the suspension points last to minimize
any of the other welding warping it and moving their locations.
John
It is not pretty but I think it will do the job. It will only be in place about a week
or two.
Started cutting out the middle of the car up to the new floor pans.
Cut out the head light bucket that was badly rusted. Started cleaning up the
metal underneath to see what shape it was in.
The piece Terry (914xprs) sent me is in great shape with just a little surface rust.
He cut it perfectly up to where the replacement floors start.
The plan is to remove the center of the old car and replace it with the new piece.
I need to trim the car up to the pinch welds and the remove the opposite pieces
from the replacement.
This is major transplant surgery but it will restore the car to good metal in some
critical areas.
John
Doing these huge panels can be so daunting before starting. But it really is satisfying to bring a trashed chassis back from the brink of death, and in retrospect it's never really that big of a job. (Isn't everything easier in retrospect?)
Mark,
Yeah, its easy!
Why don't you fly out this weekend and help me put it in?
Actually, for you, I am sure it would be easy after building the limo...
I must admit I spent a lot of time pondering how much to transplant before figuring
it would be best to do as much as possible in one chunk.
John
John
Are you going to replace parts along the original spotweld seams or are you going to cut up the old chassis to fit in the new part as it is?
Randall
Randall,
I am going to replace it along the spot weld seams down the sides.
This should help with lining up the new piece accurately.
The two bulkheads and floors will get joined in the middle of the panels.
John
That would make a lot of sense. I am not a big fan of long butt welds in the middle
of panels when it comes to structural strength.
I am going to be adding some tubing from the front shock towers to the front
suspension points, and tie these tubes together across the front of the car similar
to how Jeff Hail did in his "Bringing out the dead" thread. I would be worried about
the strength of the front of the car after all this surgery without these tubes.
This picture was "borrowed" from Jeff's thread.
John
Good idea!! form and fuction.......looks really good...
Spent 2 hours peeling off one side of the donor organ. This is the first time I used
the Blair Rotabroach. These things kick ass. I won't go back to anything else.
They are much more aggressive cutting and stay sharp better than any of the
other spot weld bits I have tried.
Still a lot of work left before the transplant can happen.
John
That's a good "pick". Prep is everything.
Nice work
John,
Just found your build thread, cool project, you do good work.
I am always amazed at the innovative ways you come up with of turning a 914 upside down. Keep the picts coming.
Dave
You'll have a fuel cell and oil cooler to install as soon as you get the trunk reconstructed and the chassis flipped upright again John.
Here's what it looks like mocked up. The tubular braces will be ready shortly.
Everything appears to fit together just fine.
I have most of your fuel plumbing together now and the cooler/shroud shipped today.
We plumbed a similar oil cooler installation over the last couple days for a 3.2L conversion, so I have many details already worked out.
Great job John...
BTW what size Blair Rotabroach bit did you use?
-- Rob
Rob,
I used a 5/16 because I found a 50% off deal on amazon on them. I always
search Amazon before buying anything because they are often the cheapest even
on stuff like tools and welding helmets. They had Mallory optical ignition modules
when all the race suppliers were out of stock for weeks.
I think 3/8 would be better because it allows you to be off center from the spot
weld a little more and still get it all.
I peeled the other half of the donor last night in 90 minutes.
John
Test fitting the donor chunk.
It fits pretty well. My goal is to have it fit without any forcing. I want the suspension
mounting points to line up without any stress on the jig or the chunk. I have trimmed
it little by little and now the fit is pretty good.
I wonder if the original unit body parts would just fall together perfectly or if they had
to be clamped against their will to take they shape Karmann wanted? Does it help
to pre-tension the body panels or would that stress just be released over time as
the car went over bumps?
I got the oil cooler and shrouds from Chris yesterday, thanks!
John
John,
I bought the fenders for my project car from http://www.qrsfiberglass.com/catalog/ (cheap plug) and am very happy with the quality and the weight of them. I will take some pix for you
uh just was reading TC's project thread , You better get to work
John,
Car is comming along great! Can't wait to see the nose on it, and all of that fine fab work in fitting it. Hope to see whats next soon!
Thomas
I have been very busy on the car, just not posting much. Here is what has been
done. I spent several days fiddling with the donor chunk, with levels and a tram
gauge to try to get it as perfect as possible. Then I tack welded it in about 10
places on each side. These pictures are from after welding it in more when I
was re-checking it all.
I checked measurements from the suspension points diagonally and lengthwise
against each other. They are all within 0.5 mm of each other. My tram gauge is
only accurate to 2mm so I was happy with that result.
The tram gauge makes it easy to measure between two points on the car no
matter how uneven the body is between them.
I bought this gauge from http://www.autobodytoolmart.com/ just for this project.
It is too hard to measure between holes accurately with a tape measure and this
way I got to buy another cool tool. It should be good for checking front and
rear toe measurements as well.
When I was satisfied all was ok I plug welded all the drilled out spot weld holes.
The existing fender wells are very thin metal with lots of rusted through pin holes
and a load of holes the owners drilled everywhere.
For added strength, I seam welded a lot of the pinch weld between the donor
chunk and the original car. I don't plan on grinding all the welds totally flat. I
think that will weaken it too much and the original owners would never have
bothered with that.
Notice all the holes in the fenders. After welding the chunk in, I spent days and
days filling in all the rust holes and drilled holes I don't plan to use anymore.
John
Fixing some choice holes in the fender wells.
This was a tricky shape to fix. I used 18 gauge metal which is a pain to bend.
All the bends were done using one pair of pliers to hold the piece close to where
I wanted to bend it, then using another pair to grab it and bend. Once you start
having it welded on, you can shape it by hammering on it or hammering on a
screw driver to force the metal where you want to go.
Another similar hole.
Welded up.
Lots of holes welded up. This area I did grind almost flush.
Lot of the same kind of holes on the other side.
John
Just my .02.
While you have it up side over, weld all the pinch seams. Grind the 2 pieces flush with each other then weld the knife edge......that makes the metal as clean as possible and gives a good target to weld (dirty wetal gives blow backs). Dress up with a grinder to make the welds smooth.....no kerfs. All lap seams should be at least (2 inchers) skip welded tho I prefer full welds. .023 wire works best for this.
JP, I have been thinking of doing more seam welding as you describe.
I especially want to shore up the rear shock towers where they tend to crack.
John
this thread keeps me checking back!
John, Did you end up getting an engine?
Give me a call this week.
T.C.
I did find some cracking on my car around the bottom of the rear towers......see pic. (not my car). This was before I put in the down tubes from the cage to towers.
The sheet metal in that area is really thin.
Also pictured is the srea over the axles & inner ear. The pinch seams marked are highly susceptable to cracking. The.023 wire I used was called "Easy Grind". It is not nearly as hard to grind (go figure) a normal 6 or 7000 serise wire. It also requires less amperage to run...less heat is gud for sheet metal.....don't weld up your cage with it tho.
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Wow, this is amazing
Oops, duplicate post deleted.
It ran today. It did great. I will be emailing you a dyno graph and video tonight.
Innovation or Abomination?
I can't decide.
The pedal support structure on the car was nothing but rust and memories.
No one seems to have one on a parts car that is not totally shot that I could
find.
Mark posted a cool video a while back showing just how much the floor flexs
when you step on the brakes. Scary!
I decided to try to stiffen up the area from the pedal box back to one of the ribs
stamped in the floor. This is not stock, obviously, and kind of ugly, but it should
be stiffer than the stock arrangement. I can always grind it off later before I
take the car to Pebble Beach.
Mounting the pedal box. The bar and bolts got welded down later on.
Clean it all up for welding.
Fitting some half inch tubes and eighth inch plate under a 16 gauge piece.
Welded it all up.
I am thinking the "corner" formed by the part of the box next to the brake
cylinder will add a lot of stiffness. There is an eigth inch plate running the
length of the box that is plug welded under the top. The box is not the lowest
point on the front of the car so it does not reduce ground clearance.
What do you all think?
John
Finally finished welding the floors. I took JPs advice and seam welded the
whole seam down the longs from the front of the car until past the transmission
dog bone intersection. Firsr ground it even and then welded it 2 inches at a
time. I welded only six or so sections a foot apart each day.
There is a lot of crap in those seams because the first weld session popped like
crazy. It was constant fireworks. Next day I welded the same sections again
and then I could get a good weld. Like I had to cook all the crap out of the seam
the first pass. Then I lightly ground the top and both sides. After that I filled in
any areas that had gaps, holes, or looked weak. Very time consuming.
Welded on the floor pan triangles and jacking points. Cleaned it all, etched
it, and epoxy primered it today, the first new paint on the car.
Made 16 gauge reinforcing plate for the anti-roll bar mount. The sheet metal on both
sides was torn in this area.
Everything will get seam sealed and primed again.
John
Heh.....ah yes, good times welding the long seams. I did that laying on my back underneath it. Had simlar problems with crap in the joint blowing up, out , and all over me. Even wearing leathers I did manage to light myself on fire several times.
One particular glob went between my leathers & collar, down my chest till it stopped at my belt.....sizzling, cracking, burning hair all the way down.
No use getting up & trying to get free of that sumbitch.....just kept goin'
After I got a well filled bead on there I went over it with a 2 inch sanding disk (60-100 grit on a die grinder) smoothing everything out to eliminate kerfs (notches).
Weldong upside down sucks...
Coming along John. Getting a care package together for you.
Eric - ouch! That sucks. I am going to need some Zimmerman rotors from you. I
plan to use the S calipers and V calipers (the calipers with the e-brakes will go on
my blue car). Maybe you can figure out what I need and PM me.
Getting burns trying to weld on new floor pans upside down is what lead me to
building the 914 rocker. I still have scars on my arms from the molten drips.
Notice the fireproof welding blankets on the wall. There is a reason those are
there now. Too many things set on fire by welding sparks.
John
keep on truckin brave soul! I have enjoyed watching your fine work
My buddy Sean has been helping me now and then to clean up the car. I am
helping him restore his 914 in exchange. His car needs floor pans, hell hole,
and paint.
I'll seam weld or skip weld all the tower seams.
Trying to clean up the whole underside so we can reflip this sucker and get
on with it.
John
Picked up my engine from Blake and his father Al. It is a 2.5 /6 they got in an old
911 they bought a while back. It was marked as a T engine but made way more
power than it should have. Blake tore it down and saw it was built as a race
or hot rod engine. They rebuilt it with nickies because several barrels were
shot.
Here we are picking it out of Al's car.
Stuffing it into my rusty old truck.
My wife showing the proper respect for our new engine.
Can't wait to have it in the car.
John
great thread! I enjoyed reading your blue resto also. nice work!
Thanks, I appreciate the encouragement.
Now if I could just stop working OT I could make some real progress.
John
Sean having fun with the plasma cutter.
Cutting out a replacement front valence from a piece sent to me by Thomas.
Saving both head light buckets to use on the IMSA car.
I'll weld it on once we have the car flipped back upright.
John
WOW! great progress! looking really good those repairs!! Engine looks really nice too!
Looking good! Hope to see you next time I'm in town at my father in laws. We are so lucky to have wives that support our illness
What do you call a wife who plants a kiss on your newly arrived engine?
Keeper
When I spoke of grinding your welds smooth this is an example of what I meant.
The rear wheel/axle arch is an often cracked area. You want to avoid "kerfs"....notches on the edges which concentrate stress. Smooth/faired welds are the cat's ass.
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JP,
That looks nice and neat. I have been working towards that. Seam weld, sand,
go back and fill in any notches or porous welds. Repeat.
I finally started priming stuff to keep it from rusting while I work, but I know
I have more cleaning up to do.
John
Sorry if I jumped ahead too much..... the primer kinda threw me.
I used a rattle can etch primer made by RM for spot work. It is compatible with any build primer/topcoat I threw at it.
At any rate, a picture is worth a thousand wurds. Here's an ear. I coud have done a better job of it, I guess, but geting out from underneath the SOB became a higher priority.
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John,
Here's an example of a redundant fuel system for you to look at for ideas:
Note the duct to a fuel cooler on the right
Scott Carlberg found a picture of your car
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=116831
http://americanlemans.com/primary1.php?cat=news|15568
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Whoo Hoo!
I am so stoked to see another period picture of my car!!!
That is freaking awesome.
I would love more cool pictures like that.
Made a lot of progress on the car I need to post.
John
Take a look at this video, you might see it
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGCI4ny8DEA
I think I see a black 914 in that video and maybe a silver one.
I finished seam welding and cleaning up the longs.
Reflipped the car the easy way using an engine hoist.
No drama this way.
John
It is amazing how just a coat of primer makes the car look so much better
Great Job!
The black 914/6 in the Sebring video is the Zulkowski car now owned by Doug Wright
Hey Glenn,
I agree, once you get all the rust off and get it all one color it looks so much better.
I was wondering if the black 914 was your Hendricks car, wasn't it painted black at one time?
John
I tuned up a couple of the small photos in Photoshop for fun..
Attached image(s)
Thanks Pete, that is a definite improvement!
John
Loookin' gud.
That must be Di Lella Racing, the builder of the car!
You are the man, TC.
Any info on the photo or event?
John
URY posted that picture on the 935 Thread on Pelican.
It has to be Daytona from the background
Dave Kutz sent it in to http://www.racingsportscars.com/photo/1977/Daytona-1977-11-27-095a.jpg
Daytona Finale 250 Miles 1977
Been working for several weeks to rebuild the front end of the car.
The front fascia only comes up about half way and both head light buckets are
rusted badly.
I have replacements that Thomas sent to me I will use to fix this.
Somehow I can't get the new section to fit the car. It is like it is too wide to fit
between the fenders. Took some measurements on my other 914s for comparison.
No wonder, this car is 2.5 cm narrower than it should be, it is 125.75 cm across
at the very front.
Love the Area 51 welding jacket.
John
Get out the porta power and start pushing it back into shape.
Push it, check it, push it, check it. Get frustrated by the spring back and really
crank it. Needed to cut through the fascia to the proper fit and bending. Push it
and now it stays where it should. Checked the diagonals and widths. Hammer
it here and there to shape it right.
Try fitting the pieces again.
Now everything fits well.
Nothing like a 4 ton hydraulic ram to ensure cooperation.
John
Tack weld the pieces on and check the fit with the hood. The hood fits well except
where they must have reshaped it to make up for the pushed in driver side. The
driver side fender was replace at some point by brazing on a piece from a green
car.
Check the fit of the headlights and covers.
It all fits decent. The gaps are a little big but it is good enough for a race that
has been wrecked multiple times.
Fully welded it a few inches at a time by cutting through the overlapping pieces
and filling in the kerf.
Clean it up and prime it. I ran out of one color of rattle can self etch and started
in with another color part way through.
Starting to look pretty good.
This was a pretty major effort to reconstruct but I am happy with how it turned
out.
John
Ha ha remember what I started with:
Gives me the willies to remember that.
John
John, did you see that someone is selling an IMSA front bumper in the Classifieds?
TC,
Yes I did notice that. I am going to check if the one that came with the car is
usable. I am now at the point where I can determine if it will work.
I'd rather use the original piece if I can.
John
Have you ever heard of Vice Grips? I hope you own stock
Your work is ever impressive Awesome seeing this come together
You can never have enough clamps, I actually bought a few more really wide ones
for this project.
Things made out of fiberglass can usually be repaired if you don't mind the itching.
The fenders and bumper had all been repaired multiple times by globbing
on more kitty hair and bondo. I will grind them down to the correct thickness
again and repair them the right way, with 12:1 feathering of holes and cracks and
then adding new cloth. I used to shape and glass surfboards about 20 years ago,
where does the time go?
John
Just WOW! I love the work you are doing to save this piece of Porsche history. Very nice indeed.
John,
Great work as always! I was just wondering... what was the point of welding in two large pieces instead of one large one? I am guessing it was to preserve as much of the original car as possible, but would like to hear your thoughts on that.
Thanks and keep up the good work.
-Peter
John,
this shelf/support is not on the 1971 cars, get it out of there
Attached image(s)
Thanks for all the comments!
Peter: I had two pieces from two different cars. I think this made it easier to get
them in. Trying to get one piece with the headlight buckets attached and all the
lower trunk stuff probably would not have worked. The car narrows the closer
it gets to the front, so you can't slide a piece in from the front without some
major cutting of one side. I actually cut the fascia in half vertically to make
fitting it easier, so it was three major pieces put in.
Glenn: I left the reinforcement on until I fully weld all the new stuff to try to
maintain the original shape. I plan to remove it once I start fitting the front
oil cooler.
John
Very nice work indeed!
Been having some computer issues and finally upgraded to windows 7 which has
allowed me to eradicate all viruses.
Been working on finishing up the engine bay. Welded on Tangerine Racing rear
suspension ear reinforcement plates and made some removable chassis braces.
The longs were cracked on the outside around the suspension points so this
should help stabilize them.
Those are 1/8 plates welded on the firewall. I put the attachment point down low
where the floor pan helps reinforce the firewall.
I added some 16 gauge plating to the top and bottom of the suspension mounting
point where the brace attaches. I am missing a jam nut on this brace.
I've got some smaller heim joints and tubes to build reinforcements for the carrier
on the other end of the suspension mounting point. That should help stabilize the
other end of the rear arm and keep the toe in from changing.
John
Cut out the rusty hell hole.
Some cool rat parties went down inside this race car.
Cleaned out the rat pad using latex gloves which were promptly tossed.
Took some recon photos of the inside.
Does not look too bad actually.
This will get treated and painted before sealing it back up.
John
John,
That looks fantastic, you have balls the size of church bells to take on that project.
Can't wait to see it finished. Are you painting it back to its racing colors?
Been working on the tunnel and cross brace. Basically all the metal within an inch
of the floor is completely rusted away. Cut this all back to solid metal and patched
in new pieces.
I thought about trying to get a perfect tunnel from a donor and buy new, repro
cross braces and inner firewall pieces. I could have made the interior look close
to brand new stock but the guys who built this car originally would never have
done that. I plan to just have a bare metal, painted interior where all the welded
panels will show. I could try to grind all the welds smooth, but again, that was
never what the original builders did.
They did race the car with factory sound deadening tar in place. That all went with
the old floor pan and it got stripped off the tunnel. I wonder why they did not
bother with that obvious and easy weight reduction?
Should I replace the factory tar to be closer to how it was in the day? I have no
idea but I am leaning towards no.
Welded on a new fender to replace the trashed one. Terry (914xprs) supplied
this cherry piece for me.
John
Cleaning up the a-arms I noticed something new to me, maybe you all can tell
me if this is a common thing.
The rubber bushings on the a-arms were replaced with solid aluminum bushings.
They fit very precisely and once cleaned and oiled they spin freely on the a-arm
with no play in them. There are no grease fittings, which seems like a problem.
Those are 22 mm torsion bars.
Did someone make these and sell them back in the day or were these made
just for this car? Anyone know?
John
No one has seen solid bushings like I found on the car?
There are no part numbers on them so someone could have just made these on
a lathe.
John
Great build John. Can't comment on the solid bushings, but you can be sure they are just about as stiff as you are going to get for front bushings! Are the rears the same?
I might be tempted to keep them and add grease fittings as you noted.
Dion
Are the Elephant Bushings actually solid? I thought there was a polyurethane
lining inside the bronze?
These things are solid aluminum.
I plan to reuse them if they don't bind.
I guess I could drill some holes and add zerks. Not sure how I would groove
the inside of the bushings. Like cutting an inside thread, maybe it could be
done on a lathe.
I went on a sand blasting and painting frenzy yesterday and restored most of the
front suspension parts.
I have not looked closely at the rear control arms yet. I did notice they had the
driver's side rear spring one notch higher than the passenger side. I am
guessing this is an attempt at corner balancing?
John
Here are the Elephants
Rear control arms appear to have the same solid bushings.
I did not extract them yet, I was busy blasting and painting the rear suspension
yesterday.
John
Love this build! Cant wait to see it moving!
It was good to see that front end come together. Looks like a lot of what I sent was used! Great job fab'n it all in.
Update please John.
Been busy on fine tuning my blue 914, insulating and adding AC to my garage, and going to DEs at Palm Beach, Roebling, and Sebring all in the last couple months. I am working on getting my SCCA racing license.
Byron (racerbvd) helped me get into the Dark Side DE at Roebling at the last minute, which was a really fun and well run event. Great party with live music and a lot of cool people and cars. Byron is a really friendly and helpful guy in person who has been in the 914 scene since the beginning.
Now I am back to getting this IMSA car done. I did a lot of boring sheet metal work to the front of the car that I won't bother detailing. Cut out the late model front end reinforcement and started fitting the oil cooler and shroud.
Packaging all the stuff that has to go in the front trunk is going to be interesting.
John
Here are the front trunk tubes, fuel cell, and oil cooler plumbing. This will all work but it makes running the -12 oil lines tight.
Here is the oil cooler and thermostat plumbing concept. The thermostat will be mounted a little higher than shown. The oil return line was originally run through the driver long and then through the boxed section under the gas tank. I'll do it the same way. The line from the thermostat will go to the oil tank. I'll have to cut out part of the reinforcing plate under the head light bucket to make room for the oil lines to the cooler. It will be tight but it should work ok.
I will close up the excess hole in the floor of the trunk. I will probably use stainless wire mesh over the radiator outlet hole.
The oil cooler is the Setrab unit many people use. It will be rubber mounted and shrouded using two fiberglass pieces. I read about 25 threads on oil coolers before putting this plan together.
Any comments would be great before I JB weld it all together.
John
This is a great build. Please let me know if you need anything.
Thanks Joe. I think about dropping all my cars off at your shop and just saying, call me when they are done.
It may come to that...
John
I wpuld put the T-Stat in the rear.
Also check with HSR, SVRA, PCA about the Legality of the curved front bars
Good seeing you at Sebring, sorry I didn't get much time - mega busy
Are you going to do the double school at Roebling to get your SCCA license? I might be down there if my friend goes to get his.
This is, by far, my favorite build thread on this forum.
Hey TC:
It was great seeing you at Sebring. I had a fantastic time and was told I am about ready to solo. I am done with the stock brakes on my 996 and am thinking of using pagid orange pads next time.
Remember that the original oil tank on this car is in the front where the fuel tank normally is. Doesn't that kind of necessitate putting the thermostat in the front?
Why would curved bars in the front trunk not be legal? I was looking at a 914 at Roebling that is used in VCDA racing that has no bars in the front trunk at all. VCDA is the series I am thinking of doing. There are several central florida people running 914s and 911s in that series. I admit to ignorance of the various series rules and need to study them.
Blake: That is what I am hoping to do. My wife is also going to do it. We want to do as many track days as we can before that.
Thanks for all the comments.
John
Working on finishing the outlet hole for the radiator. Did some relief cuts so I could flatten the trunk floor and attach it to a stiffening strip.
Reinforcing the edges with 1/8 by 1 inch strips. This will give me something to bolt the shroud to and will strengthen the edges of the hole. Closed up the back half of the old air conditioning hole.
Also welded in the pads for the front trunk tubes.
The outlet opening is 7x20 inches which is 140 square inches. The radiator is 4x18 inches or 72 square inches, which is close to the 2 to 1 ratio recommended for radiator air flow.
This only took all day yesterday.
John
Looks great!! and when the missing parts and holes are fixed on my project it will be time to cut out my front trunk
Just do what I do before cutting anything:
Measure twice and pray three times.
John
This is really exciting news, when I told my dad he showed up on google, I wasn't yet a member...so I was unaware of your project. My dad is Bob Zulkowski, and I spent many days wearing the race team shirt and dusting that car when it was being shown for display purposes. It woke me up early many mornings. I've never thought about what happened to all of dads old racecars as he is presently on a big boat in the virgin islands, but now I can't help but wonder where all of it's predecessors are as well!
Best of luck to you and your wallet...my first car was a 914 which I paid a cool 3 grand for back in 1986 so I'm a fan for sure. I look forward to seeing how it goes, and you can always ask if you have questions, I'm sure if he can remember (lol) he'd love to talk your ear off about this baby. I'll see if I can dig up any photos of it in better condition as well.
Cathy Z.
Cathy
I know who you Dad is, but this car wasn't one of his - this a Priviteer car run out of South Florida, DiVella Racing
Cheshirecat - Carthy- Holy crap! I knew your dad and Troy Powell pretty well and was a regular at Metal Craft with my first 914, ('73 2.0 in sepia brown that your dad did a smoked stripe on just like his six had) and my 2nd six. They worked on that car and ultimately did the 3.0 transplant on my 2nd 914-6 when the original 2.0 punched a rod through the side. I recall your dad's black '71 914-6 quite well and Troy's blue GT flared '70. I am glad to hear your dad is enjoying life on a boat in the tropics. That was always a fun shop to go and hang out.
Fixing some holes using the HF shrinker/stretcher set. I wanted one of these tools for a while and as soon as I could think of a reason I needed them I picked up a set. I fixed some curved areas with them and they turned out well.
Found some graph paper card stock that makes great templates.
Used the stretcher on the lip to curve the piece. You have to stretch a little, check the fit, stretch a little, check the fit, hammer some to keep the lip flat, etc. Stretcher jaws leave some marks you can hammer flattter and sand if it matters.
Check the fit in the gas tank area. This was hopelessly rusted so I cut back to "better" metal.
Welded and partly ground down. Need to dremel the hard to reach areas. Leaning over to do this repair for two hours was probably the hardest part. Some parts had to be welded up from under the dash which was also fun.
I've been working on grinding down and cleaning up areas welded by Sean and I. I hate spending the time but I think it is worth it. I will clean up the welds I made to repair rust damage and try not to go down the slippery slope of over restoring.
Welds done by the original owners will be left in their original state. They never ground any welds as far as I can tell.
John
Fixing the rusted out rain gutter using the shrinker/stretcher set.
Cut a piece for the patch.
Bend it using the brake I built. I wanted a small one for bending 16 gauge and made this out of scraps plus a few HD bought pieces.
Bend it to the right shape using the stretcher. This has a variable curve that takes a some trial and error to get right.
Hammer it a little to keep it flat.
Make some relief cuts and bend up the inner edge. I used the cut off rusty piece as a guide for the width.
Test fit.
Stand back and check the arc of the gutter. This is part way through adjusting the
arc. It was way too low at first and I am glad I realized I needed to check this
before welding. Most of the time you need to think about 3 steps ahead to avoid
screwing something up.
Tack the ends, then the middle, then in between little by little.
Weld up the relief cuts by clamping a thick copper piece behind the weld.
Grind it carefully, weld some imperfections, grind some more, then sand using 120.
Still more detail grinding to go.
John
I realized that after I posted when I saw a different shot, but you can't 'unpost'...at least I couldn't figure out how to!
Been working on mounting the oil cooler and fuel cell.
I have the oil cooler mounted, thermostat mounted, and front tubes mocked up.
The fuel cell could be mounted in a framework of 1 inch angle iron represented by
the cardboard strips. It would be attached by the lip to the bulkhead using the
original aluminum angle used by the original builders for that purpose. It would
have two steel straps all the way around width wise to hold it in place.
I would put some additional short tubes under the halfway point of the lower tubes.
Getting everything to fit around these trunk tubes has been a real PIA but I think it
will be worth it.
The fuel cell will clear the oil cooler shroud this way. Once the cross tube is welded
in place it will not be possible to remove the oil cooler shroud anymore as is. I am
thinking of sectioning the shroud and holding it together with aluminum strips and
bolts or making a multiple piece one from metal sheet.
Also considering making the cross tube removable, although I have not seen any
good or easy solutions for that.
John
Just saw this thread, very impressive you'd take on such a project! Can't wait to see it completed and maybe run with it too.
Hey thanks Cracker! I'd like to get to Road Atlanta at some point.
Started mocking up the fuel cell install.
Notched some stubby legs to support the cross tube. These will sit on welded pads.
Fuel cell fits in nicely.
Playing with the fuel pick up fittings and filters. With two of everything there are a
lot of fuel system parts. Will use an angle to attach the lip of the cell the bulkhead.
Will use square tubes across the top attached to straps going around the angle
irons on the bottom. That will provide something to mount the filters to.
Lot of head scratching went into getting this far.
John
John,
You guys coming to the Dark Side DE next month??
Byron,
I hate to miss it but too busy with many things.
I want to bring my blue 914 next time but it needs an oil cooler and roll hoop.
John
John,
Don't know if you knew about this video but your car is shown at about the 12:21 mark and 14:46.
Sebring 12 Hours 1977...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4kks-yGG_6g
Nice work
Great build!
I love this thread.
That video was awesome! So cool to see your car in there John!
I decided to build a sheet metal oil cooler shroud so I could make the top in two
pieces. This will allow the oil cooler to be cleaned out or replaced with the bracing
tubes welded in place. Spent a long time making an ugly looking template for a side.
I copied the shape of the fiberglass oil cooler shroud.
I had to add tape to several edges where I cut too much off to start with.
First side bent up and fitted.
Bending up the second side. These pliers are really useful for this kind of work and you
can buy them at Home Depot, etc.
Hammering on the bend to make it crisper.
Both sides screwed down.
Laying out the first top piece.
Cut it out with the power sheers. They tend to get hung up sometimes and screw
up your cuts. I had to straighten out some of these edges with the grinder.
Screwed it together.
It turned out pretty well. I will replace the sheet metal screws with welded nuts
later on.
This took several days but I am glad I took the time to do it.
John
Continued work on mounting the fuel cell. Following the approach used by several
fuel cell makers to strap down a cell. Bent up some 1 1/4 by 1/8 steel strips.
The straps go all the way around the fuel cell and the frame on which it sits. Bolted
through the lip of the cell at the top. The frame the fuel cell is sitting in is a welded
rectangle of one inch angle iron. The straps will be welded to the frame on the
bottom.
A additional angle will be used to bolt the back lip to the bulkhead.
John
Tired of the endless work on the front end, I decided to fix some holes in the engine bay including the hell hole.
Notice the long is cracked in the rear wheel arch. This is the kind of crack the GT stiffening kit is meant to prevent.
Interesting that it cracked even with (or maybe because of) the bars tying into the rear shock towers.
Cut out rusted metal where the battery tray attaches on the other side.
Make a template by sticking painters tape over the hole from the other side.
Attached image(s)
Stick the tape to a piece of metal and cut it out. Easy to get a good fit this way.
Tack it being careful to align the edges perfectly flat. If the patch sticks in or out by
any appreciable amount it is impossible to grind the seam flat.
Keep adding tacks until it is fully welded. Notice the burns and dirt around each tack
weld. Once this side is fully welded, I turn up my welder and hit any parts of the other
side that did not burn through fully. Doing this before grinding the first side gives more
metal to absorb the weld heat.
Every time I do this I learn something more. This time I stopped now and then and wire
wheeled the seam to clean the spatter from previous sets of tacks. This seems to keep
the popping and blow through down.
Made a 16 gauge patch for the hell hole. This is trickier to make than it looks because
of the bends and the way the long curves. Welded some backers to the top and
bottom to help align the patch and allow a hotter weld seam there. Makes it much
easier to fix an area where you can't access the back.
Welded and ground down.
The bodywork on this car is just never ending...there is still more.
John
Very nice work John. I love checking in on your project and seeing what you fab up next. Keep up the great work!
Thanks Brian, I am ready for the mechanical assembly but there is a lot of bodywork still to do...
John
John,
You're metal work continues to impress me and gets better and better. The shroud looks killer. My main area of focus is body work, so let me know if you would like some free labor!
BTW - I got the Tangerine kit installed today. Its a different car now. Thank you, thank you again. I'll post pics soon.
Hey George, glad the parts helped out. I am going to want some help when the
epic reassembly of this car finally arrives.
My trusty dewalt grinder quit on me the other day after 5 years and 2 cars of
fearless grinding. I was wondering what the deal was until I noticed the cord
was on fire near the body of the grinder.
Put out the fire and installed a new cord and its back on the job.
Fixing the tail. The sheet metal underneath the old fiberglass fenders is in really
bad shape. All chewed up and distorted. It looks like the builders bashed in the
fenders as needed and filled them with glass. I fixed a bunch of pin holes and
cracks in addition to this work.
I don't really want to buy replacement steel rear fenders, which have to be getting
rare, just to cut most of them off. When I get the new fiberglass ones I'll decide
what I am going to do. Making these decisions is not easy and involves a lot of
angst.
Already built up the bottom of the corner with a few bits.
Fixed some more cracks and holes after this.
John
Fixing the taillight area.
Sketch out the new piece.
Cut n bend.
Weld n grind.
Fits decent. The front corner of the fender is pretty tweaked so it is not perfect.
Losing patience with how bad the metal is on the fenders so calling it a day.
John
Switching gears here to work on something besides welding and grinding.
I have asked some of the experienced folks what kind of seats to run in the car.
They have given me some great ideas and I hate to keep bothering the same
people all the time so I thought I would throw this out for the world to help me out.
I would like to race the car in vintage racing, do some DEs, and maybe some
vintage rallys. The Targa Newfoundland is my fantasy goal.
I can either use a vintage looking seat, like this great aluminum Kirkey 41500
vintage seat.
A less vintage looking seat but one that is probably safer would be this Kirkey
47500 seat.
Don't be shy now what do you all think?
John
Go for safety over looks in that dept. I vote!
I'm really getting into SVRA and historics and from what I know, no one looks down upon modern safety equipment. Fuel cells, HANS devices and seats are just some of the many areas that people upgrade with good reason. I vote the tall seat-back. I sincerely doubt if you were to track it at all that you would be able to get by with the low-back. Not to mention, its just a bad idea in general I think. The fender work looks awesome! Are you going to try your hand at a shrinking disc to smooth out the rest of it, since you're planning on FG fenders at some point?
I have heard great things about shrinking disks and have John's video where he
demonstrates it.
I also heard from people whose disk exploded and sent them to the hospital with
major injuries.
I have not had much luck shrinking with acetylene but I may try again.
Keep the ideas coming.
John
John, I have a Sparco Racing Seat with Recaro Brackets that came out of the Carrera if you want a Real Racing Seat ( Cheap)
DS
You'll need the tall seat for racing the 914 ... even just vinatage.
People must use the short vintage seat in street cars.
After combing this site and the internet in general for days I have concluded that
I need Roger Sheridan's wide rear body flares.
They look the closest to the original flares that I can find and they are wide enough
to fit the Gottis I want to use. The rear tires on the Gottis are around 13.5" wide.
That is too wide for the Sheridan standard rear flares. Now I have to figure out
what size wheel spacer to make the Gottis work.
I found some other really wide rear flares but they have a hard body line in them
that does not match the originals or they have big vent holes. I also do not want
to use 914 GT style rear flares because that is not what was on the car.
Anyone know of any other potential choice?
Thanks,
John
John,
I would figure out what organization you plan on racing with first.
I would also recommend using dzus fastener (or other similar fasteners) so you can change the body work to match each organizations requirements. I race with Midwest Council and VSCDA around here and have no issues with the wider IMSA flares. When I went to an event run by SVRA they wanted to put me in with the prototypes or the Mustang/ Corvette group. Having only a 2.2 L six this was less than appealing. The wheel size will also come into play, VSCDA requires 15 x 7s for my car so using my 12” wide Gotti’s is just not an option. The IMSA race car I am now restoring will be capable of a quick fender and wheel change to get me into any vintage club.
The fenders from GT racing are called GT quarter panels but look similar to what came on your car…I guess you need to confirm what you would get from them.
Attached image(s)
Glenn,
Thanks that is great advice. I will plan to use dzus for the rear flares.
Is there the same issue for the front fenders or would you bond those on?
I will check into the GT racing flares. Their web site says they fit 12" rims. I will
call and talk to them.
I have been studying the various rule books and noticed the heavy class you get
into once you have a larger engine than the factory 914 GTs used, which was less
than the 2.5s used in GTU.
To make this thing authentic to what it was I want to make it a GTU car with IMSA
GTU bodywork for when I go to Pebble Beach.
If I can swap on narrower bodywork for an event, then that would be great.
I'm trying to finish the bodywork and paint before the Tropic Ramble in early
November. I am going to need to go on a major parts buying kick here to have
everything I need.
Been working on and off on this project for 4 years now.
John
Welded on a new sill plate.
I need the engine side to match this bulkhead motor mount.
I think this is the stock style 914-6 engine mount.
Does anyone have one for sale or know where I can get one?
John
That would be great, T.C.
John
You are kicking ass with your current IMSA racer, Glenn, looks like fun.
I ordered the GT-Racing rear fenders. I called them to talk about the fenders.
They have had the molds for these fenders since the 80s and weren't sure
exactly where they came from. They really look like the ones that came on the
car, that was a great tip Glenn. I briefly looked at them while I was doing my
web search but they did not look wide enough. They say 12" rims will fit so that
should be good with the Gottis. I noticed that under the red paint on my Gottis
is the gold color that you see in the old pictures.
GT-racing has to make up a set for me because some dude named Britain ordered
their last sets for some crazy 914 he is building. The GT-racing guys were like
what is going on with all the wide 914 builds right now?
John
Added some bars extending down to the transmission mounts.
Welded on a new engine shelf.
There were some pea sized rust holes showing here.
MMM, crusty. Your car is just as bad, it is just hidden under nice paint.
Keep digging until solid stuff is found. Still a little more trimming to go.
This is actually easy to fix because you can just stand right next to it and work.
No leaning way over or crawling underneath anything to get to it.
John
Whoa, I didn't know that was the timeframe John! Maybe you could give me an idea of what weekends you want to work on the car and I can tell you which ones I could make? Lookin good as usual. Glad you found that rust under the fender before you went ahead and painted it. It surely would have come back to haunt you later on.
Being a total newbie to the club and somewhat in the middle stages of a restoration of my 914 that I have had over 32 years. Jesus did I just say 32 years???
Your metal work is phenomenal! Makes me want to go back in and tear some things apart and do a better job! I wish I would have taken the time to do some research and find this website when I first started to tear into my car 8 years ago. I am just thankful the car was a fairly dry California car when I bought it and the metal work I had to do wasn't anything like you have taken on. My hat is off to you and your work inspires me to do much better from here on out.
Jerry
Hey Jerry, thanks for the kind words. I am really just an amateur hack compared to a lot
of the folks on 914 World and they have likewise inspired me to keep trying to improve
the quality of my work. When you see really good work, especially in person, you know
what it is possible to do. When I can shrink as well as distort and abuse metal then I
will be happy.
Some of my favorite threads that I learned a lot from are:
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=16748
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=76791
Start a thread and document what you are doing with your car, it is great for keeping
your motivation going.
John
Rebuilding the cowl starting with the inner piece (peace).
Vacuumed a lot of mud dauber nests out of the windshield frame and door post.
Banging on the windshield frame dislodges the old nests and they fall down into
this area. After a lot of banging and digging with a screwdriver I cleaned them all
out. Shot a bunch of etching primer in there before closing it up.
Next add the outer piece.
Then magically close it up and paint it. Still some pinholes to fix.
Now on to yet more nuisance welding. There were a buncha holes like this in the bottom
of the windshield frame.
Add a backer behind the hole, holding it in place for welding with some screwdrivers.
Just sploog up the holes with loads of weld bead and prepare to fill the next hole.
Using some magnets to keep the next backer in place until it is tacked.
All ground down nicely.
Weld up the radio antenna hole. I was almost disappointed to find the fender and cowl
are solid on this side.
Weld up a hole I believe was used to route the fuel overflow line from the cell to the
ping pong ball apparatus.
I've been working towards closing all the unneeded holes in the firewalls. There must be
ten other holes like this one I have welded up. Getting closer every week...
John
John, have seen this one...
Damn that's a cool ride.Keep up the great work!
What size welding wire are you using? Looks like you need to drop your wire speed and up your heat slightly.
Paul, that picture was posted by Glenn in post #206, but thanks for thinking of me.
You have a great collection of vintage photos for sure.
I always use .30 wire because it feeds better than .23 with my Hobart welder. This
welder only has 4 voltage settings. Been thinking about upgrading to a Miller 180 or
other machine with infinite voltage control.
John
Been working a lot but not posting much.
The rust repair is done. Major welding is done except for a few small things.
I sanded and cleaned it as much as I could stand and then sprayed a couple coats of primer/sealer to protect it during the mock up phase.
When everything has been bolted on it will get taken apart for final painting.
John
What a difference. Your car has come a long way. Can't wait to see it continue.
Thanks man, seems like a way of life more than a project after a while.
You are going to the tropical ramble, right?
You will be able to see the car in person there.
John
I'll be there. Can't wait to see it in person. There aren't many get togethers that can claim attendance by a 914 with IMSA experience. Combine that with Joe's RS and all the others and it should be a really great time.
Come a Long Way !
Got the GT racing flares and front bumper on the IMSA car now.
Got the new suspension and wheels on.
Starting to look good.
Got a nice set of steel rocker covers from Bruce Stone (BDStone).
Got a killer restored pedal set and a lot of other hard to find parts from Bruce Stone.
I ground 10 lbs of bondo and kitty hair repairs off the front bumper and replaced
them with 3 layers of close weave cloth.
Now the bumper weighs half as much.
Its taken 20 hours to rework it to fit right and still 10 hours to go...
Love the itchy fiberglass sanding...
Trying to reassemble the car enough to be interesting for people to see at the Ramble.
I am going for the patina look with original, untouched panels where possible.
John
Flares are screwed on for mockup, will be dzus-ed later.
Front suspension has:
New Koni adjustable shocks.
22mm torsion bars.
New ball joints and turbo tie rods.
Charley bar? 21 mm sway bar with arms and hardware I replated and chromated.
Need a new bar because the original is rust damaged.
New weltmeister drop links (originals are bad).
No wheel spacers.
Need new brake rotors.
908 repro brake calipers.
Rear suspension has:
New Koni adjustable shocks.
No sway bar.
275 lb Eibach springs on coil overs.
1.5 inch wheel spacers.
Need new brake rotors.
914-6 rear brake calipers.
John
Working on the front bumper.
It is good itchy fun. I love the smell of polyester resin and hardener.
The original electrical box and fuse panel was mounted on the tunnel next to the
driver. This put all the fuses close to hand if there was a problem. Relays were
mounted next to whatever they controlled.
The box is riveted out of random metal they had on hand. The inside looks like it
came from an old sign. The craftsmanship is very good, with neat bends and
even lines of rivets. They used glass auto fuses and a 914 targa top latch to hold
it closed.
John
Just be sure to wear a mask so you don't smell that resin and hardener! Looks great!
John, I need to post some more pictures of the day T.C. and I picked it up.
That car was in SAD shape.
You are building it back better than it ever was to begin with.
Vintage race cars are supposed to show evidence of past battles, at least underneath the new shiny exterior.
Its looking real good John!
John, in another IMSA 914-6
John,
I didn't ever really get to see the pics of when it was first delivered. Man, you have some cohones for tackling that car. I noticed some of the white fiberglass pieces - were those spares that came with that car? What I saw in Deland was all painted. Also, that fuse box looks scary! I can't believe thats all they had keeping those fuses from rattling out and that there was no insulation keeping the metal ends of each fuse from grounding on accident.
Regarding T.C.'s post - I had no idea a 914 had ever won its class at Daytona, let alone finish 5th overall (1980). Very cool stuff.
Thanks Paul!
How do you think the resto is turning out after seeing it in person?
John
John,
I don't have much room to bug you as I haven't been on mine lately.... But I could use a boost. How's the car coming?
Thomas
I just posted this in John's other thread, but he's out of town for the moment. I'm sure he'll respond soon though
Update?
i had forgotten how rough john's imsa car was. quite the transformation.
k
I talked to Manual or his son when I had the car before John bought it
How cool would that be to meet him John!?
I would love to meet the Manuel and show him and his family the car.
I'll get in touch.
John
wow! cant say much more.
People have been asking what the hold up is with me getting this car done.
It took me a while to realize but now I need to do something about it.
I don't like the way the front fenders line up with the front panel.
So I got some really nice used fenders from Bruce Stone so I can re-do them.
It would really help to have a NOS front panel as well, or one that is pristine from a car wrecked in the back half. The panel on there was sectioned horizontally from two different cars and is not dimensionally correct (I think, need to make a template to be sure).
I think I unconsciously did not want to go backwards to fix this but it needs to be done to be right.
John
People have been asking what the hold up is with me getting this car done.
It took me a while to realize but now I need to do something about it.
I don't like the way the front fenders line up with the front panel.
So I got some really nice used fenders from Bruce Stone so I can re-do them.
It would really help to have a NOS front panel as well, or one that is pristine from a car wrecked in the back half. The panel on there was sectioned horizontally from two different cars and is not dimensionally correct (I think, need to make a template to be sure).
I think I unconsciously did not want to go backwards to fix this but it needs to be done to be right.
John
I got this eMail from Sebring this Morning (look 1/2 Way Down)
Sebring Hall of Fame
Class of 2014 Announced
The Sebring International Raceway Hall of Fame has announced its 2014 inductees.
Vic Elford, Wayne Taylor, Bob Tullius, Peter Gregg and Brumos Racing join the prestigious Sebring Hall of Fame's class of 2014 to be inducted the day before the 62nd running of the Sebring 12-hour classic.
Vic Elford won the 1971 Sebring 12 Hours co-driving a Porsche 917 with Gerard Larrousse. He also finished second at Sebring in 1968, the same year he won the 24 Hours of Daytona. Elford won class twice at the 24 Hours of Le Mans (1967, 73) and has 13 F1 World Championship starts to his credit
Wayne Taylor won the 1996 Sebring 12 Hours co-driving with Eric van de Poele and Jim Pace. He also finished third in 1994. Taylor has won the Rolex 24 at Daytona twice and also won the inaugural Petit Le Mans at Road Atlanta in 1998. He currently campaigns a prototype in the new TUDOR Championship, driven by his sons.
Bob Tullius and his Group 44 team pioneered the concept of professional motorsports with immaculately prepared race cars and transporters. His first of 14 starts at Sebring came in 1963 at the wheel of a Triumph TR-4. Tullius won the GTO category in his Group 44 TR-8 and finished fourth overall in 1985 driving his Jaguar GTP prototype.
Looks like that 914 had just pasted the 935 in the background and was closing fast on that TR-8.
I got the same email too!
Hoping to make some progress this holiday.
John
I have been wondering about the straightness of the chassis. In the front, the
fenders do not look quite right and one rear control arm needs 1.5 cm more shims
than the other to achieve the same camber. I wanted to check this out so I did
some measuring using advice from Rick and others.
First I got the car up on stands and leveled it as best I could. I was not worried
about leveling it along the length so much as side to side. I wanted to detect if the
car was twisted along its length. Using different thickness of plywood I was able to
compensate for the slope of my garage floor.
I leveled it across the pinch weld on top of the longs. My thought is get the middle
of the car level and see what each end does.
Sorry about the poor picture quality. I feel bad for not providing better quality given
how much you all have to pay to see this.
I checked the floors from underneath using a level attached to a tram gauge. The
tram gauge has fingers on the ends that bridge the convolutions of the floor pan.
After checking multiple times and places I got it as level as my primitive equipment
would allow. Now I set up a laser level at the front of the car. Using shims of
different thickness paper I leveled the beam.
Now theoretically the car and the beam are level to each other. Using a square and
a ruler I checked the distance down from each front suspension bolt to the beam. I
picked this bogus ruler because the laser line showed up the best on it. It was really
hard to see on my steel rulers.
What I was really interested in was the difference side to side. I measured the two
front control arm bolts and the two bolts holding on the cross beam multiple times
to be sure I got a consistent reading. I found that the most any pair was off side to
side was 4 mm!!! Two pairs of bolts were within 1 mm!!
I think if my leveling efforts were really bad they would all be off left to right by a
consistent amount. Or if the car was really messed up then the measurements
would be off by more than 1 cm.
I think this means the front end is ok. Now on to check the back end.
John
I set up the laser level again at the rear of the car.
Then I checked the levelness of the floor of the car in the engine compartment.
I did this by comparing the measurements from side to side. They were almost
exactly the same given the crude method I was using. The beam is about 1 mm
wide and not sharply delineated making it hard to read exactly. I used a tape
measure and hung it down like a plumb bob.
Then I measured the inner and outer attachment points for the trailing arms.
The angle of the photos make the tape look really crooked. When I actually made
the measurements I took care to keep it vertical.
The outer attachments were off by 1/4 inch and the inners are off by 1/8 inch. I
am sure Hubert De La Metric is spinning in his grave that I mixed Metric and English
measurements in the same project, but I don't have a metric tape measure.
Being off 1/4 inch seems pretty good.
A member suggested I check the trailing arms to see if maybe one was bent.
I made this simple jig to check them.
The left and right differ by 5 mm at the hub. I need to calculate what this translates
into in terms of camber differences. I measured them repeatedly and always got the
same answer.
Now I am not sure if 5 mm at the hub equals 1.5 cm of shims?
What do you all think?
John
You never cease to amaze. Very impressive use of what you have on hand.
Thanks! I wonder how accurate all this cobbled together stuff is though.
What makes me somewhat confident things are good is that it seems unlikely that
the inaccuracies in my approach would all come together in pretty close to exact
agreement. If the laser level was off or the car level was off, I would think the
difference side to side would be big and not almost nothing.
I can only guess that Vince and Manuel started with a pretty straight car and the
cage they installed kept it basically straight through at least two accidents and all
the welding I have done to it.
John
Nice work. There is no reason a guy can't check your chassis without spending a fortune. All it takes is time and effort. You don't need a Celette for every little thing.
For an old race car that's not shabby. Your 1/4" = just over 6mm. The factory tolerance is 3mm or less. (three dimes thick) Add that to the 5mm from the hub and carry it out over the distance of the wheel center line, add some camber and I think that is what you are seeing when you say the car looks crooked.
I'm less concerned with the individual bolts in the front. In a cluster like that you can take an average and your ok. If your still wondering about the front check the torsion bar tubes to your laser line just behind the forward torsion bar cover. Centerline here is a consideration. If one torsion bar is pulled in your alignment will be wonky.
One final check you may want to make is the center line forward to back. You can take some #9 tie wire and hang it down from the suspension mounts, take a measurement at the top of the wire. take a level or something you are sure is straight and hang it from the wire. You will want three points down the car. mark center of the levels or what ever your using. Shoot your laser down the center line and see what you get.
The normal part of the process is to establish a datum line. We don't have datum in the 914 info link on the site. But if your upper body measurements are good you can just set the cross bars evenly and establish your own for this exercise.
They make old school centering gauges for this function but they are not necessary. With the cross bars set an equal distance from the floor pan shoot your laser down the outer end (front to rear) of the cross bars. This will show chassis twist. Then it's a matter of determining which corner is high. I doubt you'll see much difference. It looks like you found the issue already. My post is to bring to light the distance you can go with simple tools. Now repairing chassis issues is a completely different subject.
Thanks Rick!
Your idea for using a laser level was the key to doing something useful.
I will check the torsion bar tubes next. The idea here is that they need to be parallel
to each other and to the center line of the car, right? I think I can find the center
line using my tram gauge pretty easily. Maybe I will run a wire or chalk line down
the bottom of the car on the center line. It should be easy to measure the torsion
bar tubes to the center line.
To make sure I understand about your second suggestion, you are saying to
suspend 3 levels cross ways between three sets of suspension points lengthwise
down the car and see if they all line up horizontally. If I use equal length wires then
a straight car would show them all lined up in a flat plane under the car.
It the car is twisted lengthwise then I won't be able to use equal length wires and
get the levels to be level?
I might need to draw a picture of this procedure to get sure I get it.
John
OK, thanks Chris.
When you say digital level, do you mean like those used in digital camber gauges?
I need to pick one of those up.
John
can you find 4 points to measure and check for squareness on the diagonal? having never traveled this path, its just a suggestion. the transformation you've done is incredible with this sad old racer. love the interior light.
with Chris. The front of the torsion bars are higher than the center section of the pan. So looking at the car from the side the distance from the datum line would be higher to the front than the center. You can still use the levels set at the same distance from the bottom of the car and sight down the plane to pick up visible twist in the chassis or a deflection off center. I wish I still had my old chassis manuals. I would have the drop down measurements. For those that don't know and are following along the datum is an imaginary line to use as a reference to determine various points on the chassis are true.
Rick, the datum is a horizontal line or plane under the car, right?
I found this reference with lots of auto measuring info:
http://books.google.com/books?id=zh94U0W_hwsC&pg=PA472&lpg=PA472&dq=datum+auto+body+repair&source=bl&ots=pWKjjFoswM&sig=mtlgF2TUpY6LtFegaKyK2IxOiIg&hl=en&sa=X&ei=-5TIUv3xKYuMkAeGm4DYDw&ved=0CEkQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=datum%20auto%20body%20repair&f=false
This is going to take a while to study...
John
http://www.racingsportscars.com/chassis/photo/471%2029%2012215.html
what a great read!
found some pics of the car...and results here
http://wsrp.ic.cz/imsa1977.html
great reference sites.
cheers marty
Ordered the book from biblio for $17.56 plus shipping:
http://www.biblio.com/details.php?dcx=552168795&aid=frg&utm_source=google&utm_medium=product&utm_campaign=feed-details
Thanks for the links, Marty!
John
This is really good stuff John, and some lucid, well-thought ideas on how to check the shape of the chassis. In particular, I think it was wise to check that trailing arm to see how warped it was. Does this mean that the car is still within factory +/- specs on all of the suspension points? I know it's not perfect, but basically it's "good enough"?
Really happy for ya dude! Glad you're doing it right. Question - I noticed that car ran as a 914/4 in GTU for the first two outings. I wonder if Manuel or Vince has any details or pictures on how the car was setup that way? It appears it only ran once as a /6?
Hey thanks George! I think so far the chassis and suspension points look good
enough that I think the setup and alignment will be good and it will handle well.
I have some receipts for new pistons and cylinders after the /4 outings. I think they
holed a piston during one of the Sebring outings. Eventually they switched to a /6.
Really looking forward to talking to Manuel about how they built and campaigned the
car.
I need to compile all the race history into one post.
Today I measured the front A arms to see if they were parallel as Rick and Chris
suggested. This was very easy to measure starting with the front:
And then measured the arms at the rear:
As closely as I can tell, they are exactly parallel! I did not move the pointers on
the tram gauge at all from the front to rear measurements.
This felt good to see.
John
So I did find some things wrong with the car through measurements and
comparisons with my other two 914s. One thing is the passenger fender
was "drooping" by almost an inch on the outside. This caused the front end to look
wrong on close inspection.
I made a template of part of the front panel from my red car and it was obvious
right away that something was wrong when I held it up to my IMSA car.
The big gap was closed up the way I had it welded. I cut it apart and tacked it the
way it should have been before taking this picture. Now it looks much more correct.
Notice the front panel is patched together from several pieces and some sheet metal.
Now you may be asking what kind of dumb ass welds their fender on in a way that is
off by an inch? Good question. Until you have done something like this before it is
not obvious to you all the possible things that can go wrong. It all seemed to fit
together nicely at the time. The fiberglass front bumper fit perfectly.
This only took about an hour to fix but much longer to understand. Next time I will
know much more about how to position each panel.
John
And then there is the real puzzler. The driver side headlight is very tight in its
opening. I made a template of the opening from my red car and compared it to
this one. The passenger side looks very good.
The driver side is way off.
Lining up the template with the headlight bucket and drawing a line down the fender:
It seems the fender was mounted too close to the center line of the car when the
POs welded on a replacement fender sometime long ago. The headlight bucket is
attached to the front panel in exactly the stock location. The headlight buckets are
parallel to each other and the right distance apart.
Remember back in post 221 when I realized the front of the car was too narrow
and I used a porto power to jack it back into place? I was short by 1 cm from where
it should have been.
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=91937&st=220
Looking at what I started with and how I pieced it back together it is not surprising!!!
Anyway, now the question is, how do I fix it?
If I could get 3 mm more opening then the headlight would operate smoothly and
I think this would not be noticeable unless you really looked hard.
John
So the buckets are in the right place, but you still have clearance problems with the headlight and the right fender, correct?
If the left side marker and fender look correct, why not make a template of that and flip it over to see if the fender still needs to come out some? Then you could split it along the seam for the front trunk. Tack it in the back, and pull the front over to make up the 3mm difference. I really want to be there to help you!
I wish you lived closer George!
The shrinkage (Jerry) is inside the driver side headlight bucket. The distance
between buckets is ok. The distance between the fenders is off by 1 cm and that
1 cm is missing from the driver side bucket. Not sure if this makes sense to people.
I could cut through the front fascia within the bucket and try to jack the fender over
another 5 mm or so. Now that I have welded on a new outside fender it makes
the fender like a double walled box that I would be afraid to force over.
I could also make a dremel cut down the fender on the line I scribed and
narrow the fender by a couple mm. Then the fender would be too narrow but
I doubt it would be noticeable.
Worst case I cut the whole fender off and weld on the new one after cutting the
fascia and widening the front end.
John
And the rest of youse! Quit lurking and post some abusive comments or ideas.
Now I got to go play with the new Ruf 911 c spec racer in iracing.
You're iRacing when you could be working?!
Attached image(s)
Great observation!
Thanks!
John
How does a known good hood fit? Check that now too so there are no more surprises. It will also show you where you can and cannot add space to get the headlight correct.
Great idea. I will try that.
Keep the ideas coming.
John
Your car is coming along nicely. It will be up to Porsche standards in no time!
If you test fit the hood and front bumpers, does it still seem too narrow?
If you fix the driver's side bucket will it cause problems fitting the hood and bumpers back on??
It's all connected (eventually)
Keep up the great work
Good questions Chris.
I will try the hood and stock bumper to see how those fit.
I plan to see how the fairly rare fiberglass bumper that was used on the car fits on my stock cars just for a comparison.
I plan to take this slow and get it right this time.
I could cut all the damaged panels off and totally rebuild it to look completely stock but I think that would not be true to how it was when it raced. I like the subtle signs of battle damage, they just need to be a little more subtle..
John
patina. if you can align it, roll with it.
I think you guys get it.
When you see the car in person it has a certain feel to it and you can tell it has had an interesting history.
I am trying to save this look while still making a functional car out of it.
John
Fixing the driver side headlight bucket. The bucket is too narrow and the headlight
rubs when opening and closing. I am going to try the easy way to fix it. If that
does not work I can move on to more drastic measures.
The turn signal bucket area is also in really bad shape. The contour around the
turn signal has been flattened out and the metal is weak and cracked.
Start cutting out the bad metal at the bottom of the fender.
Cut a pie shaped piece out of the fender about 5 mm wide at the bottom and
tapering to 1 mm at the top.
Going to post this much as a test, last night I typed it all and the server died.
John
OK, that post worked so I will continue the story.
Used a LFH and some careful pounding to realign the side of the fender.
Shoot some tacks to keep it in place.
Check the headlight fit. It operates smoothly and the seams look even.
Check it with a ruler. The fender is straighter now and looks better.
It all looks good, to stitch it up.
Grind and sand it smooth. This kind of 90 degree seam is really easy to weld and
finish even in thin metal.
Now to tackle the hard part.
John
Moving on to the turn signal bucket area. Notice how there is a raised ring around
the whole turn signal on this good fender that BD Stone sent me. This is what I
will try to replicate.
The bottom edge of the fender should be even with the top edge of the front valence
panel as you can see on the yellow piece that Garold Shaffer sent me.
Here is another view of the correct body line. Having screwed up both sides in this
area it makes me really sensitive to getting these things right in the future.
My plan of attack it to make this up in several pieces and then weld them all
together. I thought about making a hammer form for this but the piece is just
too curved for this to work. Spent an hour playing with various templates.
Putting in the double bend at the front.
Measured the bend carefully so that the front edge ends up in the right place
vertically and front to back.
Clamp on my trusty ruler as a reference line.
Try a test fit.
The piece needs to be curved slightly so take a few small bites with the shrinker.
I am not sure how this will turn out...
John
Actually I know exactly how it turns out, I just don't want the site to crash and lose
all that typing and uploading.
Here is what happened:
The fit is looking good.
Clamp it up and weld it.
Weld on the second piece.
Check the fit of the bumper before going any further. The bumper was shaped to
fit the old nasty metal so it will need work, but it basically looks good.
All tools down for a beer time out.
Fit the last piece of the puzzle. The tape holds it in place just long enough to get a
couple tacks on it.
Use all the tricks to avoid blowing holes in this 20 gauge metal. Copper strip shaped
to fit and clamped in back. Some extra clamps thrown on to act as heat sinks.
Welder turned down very low for the first tacks.
Now turn up the welder to make sure it burns through. Otherwise there will be a
lot of holes open up when grinding the weld (very annoying). I place each new
weld right on the edge of one of the small tacks to act as a heat sink. Still blew
a couple holes.
Fill it all in. Also welded all the seams from the back to provide more metal for
the shaping needed. This also helps stop annoying pin holes from opening up
during grinding.
Looking good.
John
Used a flap disk to sand the weld down close to final shape.
Then I pulled out a big round file for the final shaping. Area 51 welding jacket to
boost confidence.
Hand files worked slow and steady for no screw ups.
Check it with the ruler. I'd like to be buried with this ruler when the time comes,
and my MillerMatic.
Nearly done filing.
Comparing to the stock fender.
Primed it looks even better.
Put it all back together for a check. The bumper will need some work but everything
else lines up nicely.
Side view looks good.
Really pleased to have this fixed up. A little bondo sculpting later on and it will be
ready for Amelia Island.
John
Attached thumbnail(s)
U R A Genuus of Metal Work!
Thanks Bill. I still have a lot to learn and to practice. I would not have had to go to
all this trouble to fix the turn signals if I had not screwed them up in the first
place.
Started working on fitting the rocker panels. Got out the originals for reference.
Notice that the rocker panel is not covered by the fender flare. This is a different
look than fenders I have now.
Use the laser level to draw a cutting line. Plan is to cut off the bottom of the fender
and glass a new return edge on to it. Then curve the rocker to match. This is part
of the distinctive look the car has.
Comparing the original and new rockers. I used the stretcher on the top edge and
had to notch the bottom edge to get the right curve. Also did the same to match
the curve of the front fender flares.
Took a lot of fiddling around to get it right. Still some fiberglass work left to do.
Getting there a little at a time.
John
Some pictures of the transmission cooler and fluid pump.
The motor still operates. The pump has the letters "OBERDORFER" on it.
You can see the cooler through the holes they drilled in the bumper.
This is not a wide angle shot, the rear of this car is that wide.
John
Stunning level of detail and beautiful metal work. When I originally saw the pictures of this car I had my doubts, but it is really taking shape nicely. So glad this car is being saved.
Your moving along now! Nice to see the jacket is in use!
After bolting the rocker panel to the bottom of the car I realized I need to cut some
pie sections out to keep it lined up. The original rocker was brazed to the car at
the top and bottom and stretched somehow to fit.
Front section. Folded over a piece of metal and tacked it to keep it in place for
patching and welding up.
Now I think it is done. The rocker panel has lots of bondo and was a pain to get
to fit right. I also determined that the orange color they used was "Chevy Orange"
or very close to it.
Still have to do the other side.
John
Possible Car Sighting in Vintage Picture!
Look to the Left (in the Pit Stall)
This looks MUCH better John! So glad you're doing it right. Hoping to be able to come over for a weekend soon to help.
Wow!!!!!!
So now that John is a real, honest-to-goodness RACER, I expect this project to be done and on the track real soon. I think two weeks is more than adequate...
Such a great build and good thread. A real inspiration to us "new guys.' Thank you.
George,
I think if you, Marc, Shane, Keith and Joe all showed up we could be done in two weeks.
Glad people enjoy my warped sense of humor.
John
Hey John,
I had seen your build before. WOW. Keep posting the picks. I hope you don't mind me stealing some front oil cooler ideas!
Shane
I am fired up to get this thing done!
Last winter fell victim to 14 weeks of visitors...
This winter there will be a ban on visitors until the car is done.
And maybe then some.
John
Been working on the rocker panels.
Pictures later, thought I had uploaded them...
TC: I would like to come over some time for a build party, I think I missed the last one you had by not checking the world often enough.
I am trying to decide how to plumb the oil system and have two alternatives I would like people to comment on. The first one is similar to how the car was plumbed when I got it. Oil comes from the engine through the heater tube in the driver side long, out by the driver's left foot and into the little reinforcing box section and then into the front trunk. I don't like the idea of the hot oil being right under the driver's left foot. It also means the oil filter has to be plumbed after the thermostat and cooler due to tight confines on the driver's side. Oil returns to the engine from the bottom of the oil tank through a -16 line running through the passenger long.
Here is how it is plumbed now:
An alternate approach would be to put both the sending and return oil lines in the passenger side heater tube. The -12 and -16 lines will just fit I am pretty sure. I was able to stuff both in there about half way without really trying too hard. Worst case I take the heater tube out to make more room? The advantage here is that the hot oil line is on the other side of the car from the driver. It also allows the oil filter to be added before the thermostat and oil cooler instead of after (if that matters).
Here is how this would work:
There are also three -12 AN fittings on the top of the oil tank. One for input of oil from the cooler, one to an overflow tank with a breather, and not sure what the third fitting would be used for?
I still need to find a console for an oil filter that takes -12 AN fittings. The ones I have found from Summit Racing, etc. seem really expensive for a simple console. Any ideas there on what part to use?
Any comments would be appreciated. I have some photos of what this looks like using the first approach I will post tomorrow.
Thanks,
John
I like your alternate layout better. Both to keep oil lines away from you the driver, and also because it filters the oil before going to the cooler. If you ever blow a motor, you don't want to pollute the cooler - even after cleaning a polluted cooler, you can never be 100% sure it's totally clean. Note that if you make this change in layout, you might want to do a cleaning on your cooler just for the heck of it, since it will now be after your filter, so anything that might be in there now will dump into your tank (and your engine unless you have a second filter in the system). For 911 motors, I like to put a second filter on the engine in place of the stock oil cooler, but I think you might be using a 4, so perhaps not relevant in your case.
The third fitting you mention - is it on top of the tank? If so, it could be for a vent hose from the engine. It's good to put that vent to the tank instead of the catch can, otherwise you'll be emptying your catch can all the time.
Scott
I just read all of this build thread. You have the skills of a madman to take on this project!! Such dedication to detail and getting it right. Please pat yourself on the back for all your efforts that you have completed on this project. I know you talked about your seat if you have not bought one yet please look at this video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pX8r5ZyHvGw It might not “look” vintage but a halo seat is worth the price. I have one now installed in my vintage race car. Keep going I know you have the internal struggle to not fix something as that’s the way it was “built” and you need to leave it as is. Keep pushing forward on this fabulous project. It certainly a labor of love.
Mark
Gotta be hard to watch a car coming at you like that and know you can't do a damned thing
Thanks for all the positive comments!
I bought a HANS plus a Kirkey seat with much larger shoulder level bolsters and hip bolsters than that poor 911 driver was using. I think you would still be banged up but maybe not move around as much in the impact. I initially looked at a more vintage looking seat but I think most people in vintage racing are going for safety first, as I think they should.
John
Here are some pictures of the current set up (the first diagram). Note that I do not have an oil filter or overflow/breather tank yet and am hoping someone will suggest some appropriate parts that would work.
The oil comes from the engine through the driver long and into the boxed section by the driver's left foot. I would close up most of the hole in the long, and make a cover to enclose the oil line, but I still don't like this setup.
This is an overview of the front trunk with the oil tank, fuel cell and oil cooler shroud.
View with the fuel cell removed.
Removing the service cover in the cooler shroud I made out of sheet metal. It has nuts welded on the backs so it can be bolted together and I powder coated it once it all fit right.
Oil line coming from the engine is the lower one, then the thermostat, then you can see the new Setrab oil cooler, and the return line to the oil tank.
Return line has a bulkhead fitting and a 90 elbow because the -12 line is not flexible enough to make a 90 degree turn in the space available.
Two unused oil tank fittings on top. One will go to the breather/overflow tank, and I like the suggestion that the other can go the engine as a breather. Where does this connect on a /6 engine? You can also see the oil input line on the side of the tank.
Oil return line to the engine is a -16 AN and comes from the bottom of the tank and goes into the passenger long. Again, I will close up most of the hole in the long and enclose the bottom of the tank and the return line with some panels.
My thought at this point is to switch to the alternative diagram setup. I will see if both lines fit through the long without squeezing them, it will be close.
I still need to pick an oil filter console and a breather/overflow tank.
I like the idea of having more than one filter, maybe an Oberg filter for the line going to the engine?
Any suggestions appreciated!
John
Have you checked the online catalogue at
Pegasus Racing ?
I've been sourcing lots of parts from there.
Marty
Hey John,
I was able to get 2 -12 lines in the passenger heater tube. I'm also not a fan of that oil line next to the drivers feet. I have my first event coming up next weekend. I plan on running my car hard to look for potential problems. But those lines look pretty safe in there.
I bought most of my oil cooler parts from BAT (out of Tampa). They had all kinds of thing there. Maybe they'll have a fix for your oil filter mount.
Car looks insane. Hope your getting a lot done up there. Can't wait to see it on the track.
Shane
John,
Glad to see you are back at it!
No one thought it was funny that I was wearing lederhosen while working on my car?
Geez, in the old days of 2007 when I joined this crazy group, people would psychoanalyze all the little details in the background of any picture people posted... I expected some choice remarks.
Either people are getting way more polite than 914 owners should be or you all expect weird behavior from me.
John
That is more like it....
John,
Are you going to Rennsport with the car?
Crocs: shudder...
I plan to race at Rennsport 27.
How about you?
John
Glenn,
It would be great if you could enter either car. I really got interested in restoring a vintage racing Porsche after going to RennSport II and III. Definitely one of the bucket list items for my IMSA car since I got it.
Can you post some more pictures of the progress on your black IMSA car?
John
I am considering a variation of the first approach, which is to run the oil line from the engine through the driver's heater tube and then up and out of the elbow (like the hot air would flow) and then through the firewall and into the front trunk.
This keeps the oil line pretty far away from the driver's feet. It is also how the original owners had plumbed the car.
I tried moving the line to passenger side but there is not room in the heater tube for a -16 and a -12 line. I don't want to cut out the passenger heater tube and elbows to make more room because I don't want to hack up the car in a way the original owners did not do (anymore than I have already).
I doubt this car will ever run 12 hour races again where the build up of heat in the driver's long will be a big issue. I can fire sleave the line to keep heat transfer down near the driver. The original owners ran four 12 hour races this way so it must work fairly well.
I think I have found oil filter console and breather can, now I need to add in the fuel and other components to figure out how to package all this.
Does anyone know if having working wipers is necessary in certain race series? The wiper mechanism takes up a fair bit of room. For example, I would love to do Classic Le Mans, and it often rains during the event.
Keep the comments coming, I appreciate all the good advice.
John
John, you could also run one line down the passenger heater tube and the other (possibly the "cooled" oil) through the drivers. I still don't think the heat would really be much more noticeable than the other typical heat of racing, especially if you use FireBraid or other on them. Plus, I think you were planning on a CoolSuit - if so, you'll barely notice the heat from the lines. I ran in a Mustang with a built 347 in the front of it, once without a cool suit and once with. I was able to get through my stint the first time (1.5 hours) but the second time with the suit I felt practically fresh when I got out of the car. It does make a difference and I know that car makes a TON of heat.
As far as the wipers go, you could try to fabricate a different, or smaller/lighter wiper setup from another, more modern car. But I would not go without one completely. It would suck to get the car to a weekend and have to sit out because you can't see. RainX alone probably won't be sufficient, however I think most organizations (HSR, etc) don't necessarily require one. On that note, I finally convinced the owner of the car I'm prepping now to spring for rain tires - something every racer in Florida should have a set of.
My SCCA car hasn't had wipers since I moved to Production.
A good coat of Rain-X is all you need.
I totally forgot that I watched Chris' video of him driving like a madman in the pouring rain at NHMS. I suppose if you don't race long enough for it to wear off, then RainX is indeed the better solution. I think with Lexan it'd be better anyways since the wipers would undoubtedly scratch it. My apologies guys.
I have done all the work myself because I enjoy it.
It does help keep the cost down. I probably have 1000 hours over 5 years into this effort.
The parts can be expensive...
Post a thread about your car and your experiences with it.
Looks very cool.
Zotz does some high end work.
John
Great video Chris! Too bad someone spun in front of you at the start and held you up.
Did you have any kind of defrost system at the time?
Thanks for all your help with this project!
John
Great story Jeff.
Would it be worth running a couple bilge blowers for defrost like George did?
Are you blowing front trunk air or cockpit air George?
I was playing with laying out the fuel system last night, lots of components in a dual fuel pump system. More alternatives to look at.
John
John,
I never tested my bilge blower defrost out in pouring rain, but I have turned it on to test it in the driveway on a rainy morning and when it was really foggy out. Seemed to work great.
The idea behind it is to pull ambient air from the trunk or even outside the car into the cabin and onto the back of the windshield. If you can effectively eliminate the temperature gradient between the front and backside of the glass, in theory the windshield shouldn't ever fog up. Kind of like when a bottle of Coke sits out long enough, eventually it stops sweating. Of course, in a front engine car, the problem is much harder to control, so in a way, we have it much easier.
Rerouted oil lines the way the original builders did it. I will firesleave it to keep heat away from the driver somewhat. This is much better than what I had before. I will close up the holes I made and leave a service panel in case the oil lines need messing with. That -12 AN line is not very flexible and a real pain in the ass to work with. If the fittings are not perfectly aligned then they won't screw on.
Then through the bulkheads to the front trunk. The line does not touch the fitting.
Laying out all the parts for the dual pump fuel system. I need to find a home for all these in the front trunk area.
Start playing with various locations. Using aquarium line for the mock up. This does not look promising.
Keep playing with it.
A much better approach that does not mount any components on the fuel cell or its straps.
Rotate the pumps to put them behind the cross bar. I think this is very close for these parts!
I will weld some serious tabs to the cross bar to mount the fuel pumps. They are Holley red pumps and weigh 3 pounds each. Still need to figure out a couple more fuel components. I need to make sure all parts can be serviced or replaced and that the braided lines are not rubbing on anything, etc. The plastic zip ties are just for mock up.
This took about 4 hours to figure out but was very satisfying when it came together.
John
Trying to decide if a 1 quart oil breather tank is enough. I like this one and it will fit next to the oil tank:
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/mor-85467/overview/
A larger tank that could fit under the cowl is this one which is 3 liters (3.1 quarts):
https://www.pegasusautoracing.com/productdetails.asp?RecID=12261
Looking at these different remote oil filter consoles:
http://hpwtx.com/product/sys222-90007-12/
https://www.pegasusautoracing.com/productdetails.asp?RecID=11514
I guess a lot of people use the standard /6 oil tank and plumbing and don't have the same issues you run into with a front mounted oil tank.
John
Looking great John! So glad to see you making more progress. While the Moroso stuff is nice, I got away with a much cheaper option for a breather via Ebay.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Alum-Breather-Tank-Oil-Catch-Can-Tube-with-1-2-NPT-Side-Ports-Polished-/131354129323?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item1e9550f3ab&vxp=mtr
I think that one is 1 quart as well but has NPT fittings. I know there are AN-fitting versions for the same price though. Even though mine is not a /6, I don't think you need anything bigger than a quart. I've only drained mine once (in 2 years) and even then it wasn't really necessary.
We took a Corvette to the Lemans Classic , I installed one of these marine wipers..
http://www.marinco.com/en/products/wiper-systems/wiper-motors/mrv
Cool, thanks for sharing that.
How was the event?
John
Duplicate post deleted.
Warning: Long post with questions about the fuel system.
Looking at my current fuel system mock up it has some good points, like the fuel pumps are mounted pretty low compared to the fuel tank. All the parts are easy to get to and service. Locating the fuel pumps under the cowl would put them above the level of the fuel tank, which will make it harder for them to prime. The bad point is that I have built a closed compartment in the front trunk with 3 heat sources: 2 fuel pumps and the oil radiator. Also enclosed in there is the fuel tank. So I am worried about fuel boiling and vapor locking the pumps.
I do like this setup so I want to make it work. I will need to heat shield the oil radiator, maybe using the extruded aluminum shield material that is 1 cm thick. Maybe some gold satellite tape. I think fresh air coming in and being vented out somewhere is needed. The oil cooler ducting is sealed off from the front trunk so it does not do anything to cool the trunk. There is room to add some 4" hose from the front bumper holes to either cool the trunk or the front brakes or both. I think some vents in the wheel houses for air to leave the trunk would work. I used to wonder why the original builders cut part of the bulkhead between the front trunk and oil tank, but now I think it was to extract air from the front trunk.
So do people think I can make the pumps work here or should I put them under the cowl? I could use some opinions. I doubt this car will ever run more than a 3 hour enduro anymore but it would be nice to never boil the fuel.
Also looking at the fuel cell mounting. It is strapped to 1 inch by 1/8 angle iron square using 1 and 1/4 by 1/8 steel straps. The angle iron square will be welded to the bars in the front trunk. I want to be sure this will pass with SCCA, HSR, FIA historics etc. Does anyone know offhand if this is sufficient? I know I need to re-read all the rulebooks again.
One idea for improvement is to run a square tube along the front of the cell and add some tabs that would be through bolted with the existing straps.
Another idea which is vaguely similar to what the original builders did is to run some straps from the front cross bar and through bolt them.
Finally I could add a square tube along the back of the cell and run tabs. There is actually room for a 1 or 1 and 1/4 square tube there without moving the cell forward. I could of course use more than one of these ideas.
I realized in looking at this that if I cut the blue area out of the bulkhead I could move the fuel tank back by about 2 inches. This would get it farther away from the radiator and pumps. It would also allow more area for the angle iron frame to be welded to the trunk. I hate to cut it out but I realize why so many people do it with this setup.
I would also like to make it possible to run a taller fuel cell for larger fuel capacity. This is only a 10 gallon cell and I wonder how many minutes of race laps that will last with a 2.5 liter /6 and heavy foot?
I am also thinking of locating the fuel filter and fuel pressure regulator in the back of the car with the engine. I think there should be room back there and it will be more convenient to adjust the fuel pressure from the engine bay. What do people think?
Thanks for reading all this!
John
John,
Don't let the head demons eat you up. The biggest heat source is the cooler and its ducted out under the car. The pumps aren't going to add any heat especially since you are only running one at a time.
The fuel cell bladder actually insulates. If you are recirculating fuel its not going to heat up.
Run it!
Thanks Jeff, I really appreciate the advice!
I am planning to use a return line after the carbs and the pressure regulator.
What do you think of the fuel cell mounting options?
John
Hey John,
I was worried about the heat from the oil cooler too. Zero problems last weekend. It was pretty cold out though. Homestead this weekend coming, hope its warm outside to get more data.
How many laps could those guys have run with a 10 gallon cell? With my wimpy engine I go through about 3 gallons in 20 minutes. I'd upgrade that cell too.
Shane: good luck at Homestead this weekend! The car originally had a 20 or 25 gallon cell. I thought that was overkill for its new life. I will try to ensure a taller cell can be used if I need it.
Jeff was right in that you can agonize too much over everything. What the welder can do the plasma cutter can undo!
John
Jeff: I totally stole the front tube arrangement from your build. I even included a picture from your build and referenced it back on page 8 of this thread. Given how chewed up the front of the car was I thought the tubes you designed would tie it back together. Immitation is the sincerest form of flattery.
I do really appreciate your help and your sharing your knowledge with us on 914 World.
John
Progress on the front end oil system. The lower oil line was interfering with the anti-roll bar (doh!) so I re-thought how the lines were running. I added an oil filter console and a breather can. The layout could be simplified if I was willing to cut off the fittings from the original oil tank and have new ones welded on at different angles, but I don't want to do that.
Here is how it looks now:
I had a spare cowl brace that I used to mount the oil filter console. I added the green one, the yellow one is in the stock location. I thought re-using a 914 part to make a custom mount was in the spirit of how the original builders would have done it.
Unfortunately my first plan was to put the filter console on the other side of the bay so I got one with the wrong oil flow direction. The right one is on the way.
I toyed with the idea of using a System One, Oberg or other high end oil filter system and I may still change it out, but at least I have a layout that works now.
John
Been recovering from gall bladder surgery for a few weeks. Now I am back to work on my car.
Finally welded in the fuel cell. Started by adding some 16 gauge pads to the floor and back of the trunk.
I did not like the unsupported span under the fuel cell, so I added these 1/8 straps going down to the pads.
Welded the corners and straps, cleaned and painted it all.
I also took the plunge and cut out an opening in the bulkhead to accommodate the lip of the fuel cell. This allowed me to move the cell back almost 2 inches, which I think was worth it.
I added two strips to each side to tie the frame to the side tubes.
Straps fully welded.
Now it is really solidly supported. As I welded this up I kept checking that the cell still fit and could be removed for servicing. The foam in the cell will need to be replaced at some point because it is only good for 5 years. It is easy to create something and realize it has some simple flaw after it is all done.
I added some mounting brackets for the fuel pumps. These are made out of 1/8 plate and solidly welded to support the heavy fuel pumps. I also started making up all the fuel lines.
So much time is needed to build a completely custom car like this.
John
I think that you should seriously consider the taller fuel cell if you're not past the point of no return. Track days for me at DE's with a 2.7 and my relatively conservative driving ability results in about 6 to 7 miles per gallon. So, I'm using about 5 gallons in 30 minutes at VIR. I have a 15 gallon tank and can't run two sessions without starving the fuel pickup--have to fill before every session. It's the sweepers that kill you--at nearly 1g cornering load, it's like having the car tilted over to a 45 degree angle. As the fuel sloshes it'll uncover the pickup.
In your ten gallon cell, you may not actually be able to fill it slam up to the top, so maybe you've only got 9 gallons to work with. I think the FuelSafe cells have a sump option in the center with flapper valves to trap fuel at the pickup--be sure that you have this regardless if you go for the larger tank or not--I promise you'll need it.
Alternatively, you can add a surge tank holding another 2 gallons (Hmmm.....since you have 2 fuel pumps maybe you already have that--if so, great.)
BTW your work looks really, really good!
Hey John,
Thanks for the feedback. I have been wondering about this issue for a while now.
I need to do some measuring but I should be able to fit a taller cell with very little change. I can go 2 inches wider with a few hours of welding. I would like to have 15 gallons to be on the safe side.
I also am considering a fuel accumulator, good idea.
In some series people place a fuel pickup in each of the back corners of their cells and then run both fuel pumps all the time. That keeps one pickup suckling gas under hard acceleration and cornering.
There is a lot to consider when doing this.
John
I would add a fuel accelerator, but thats just me. I also run EFI, so each to their own, I don't have float bowls to help me through a small fuel outage.
Wow that's neato !!
I believe it will be in addition to the Foam. This is the pickup in that if it is touching liquid, it will pump it. The foam prevents the side to side sloshing
That is a pretty cool product TC that I will look into.
I still am thinking 10 gallons is too small.
I could spend $$$$ to get a 13-14 gallon cell custom made that would fit my current configuration, which is not worth it.
Researching Fuel Safe and ATL stock cell sizes it looks like to get a 22 gallon cell would require cutting out and starting over on my front trunk tubes, oil cooler shroud, and fuel cell mounts...
Not sure what I am going to do at this point.
John
How about a 3 gallon surge tank?
--DD
Doing some measuring it looks like I could fit a 4 inch wider and 2 inch taller cell with minimal teeth gnashing and hair pulling. That would give around 16.8 gallons minus some because I would order 2 corner surge tanks with doors in each back corner. So probably 15 usable gallons before you risk sucking air. Or maybe use TCs mat if they make a twin pickup version and get even more useable fuel.
Assuming 8 miles to the gallon that is 120 miles on track or 32 laps at Sebring, which would take 75 minutes at 2 minute 20 second laps. I would probably be ready for a beer after 75 minutes anyway. Do these calculations seem correct?
If that was not enough I could also add a swirl pot, although I can't find any 3 gallon ones like Dave suggested.
Give me some ideas and feedback here people.
John
Most of our races are 1/2 hr and I can easily make it with my 12 gal fuel cell, the 45 min race put me about at the limit.
That being said I am running a stock (compression & cams) 3.2 L with Weber 40 IDAs
When I ran a stock (compression & cams) 2.2L E the car used about 10 gal/hr
Thanks Glenn, that is the kind of real world feedback I need.
John
Made a low tech mock up of a 16.8 gallon tank. It is 2 inches taller and 4 inches wider than the old one. I can move it back 1 more inch with some more bulkhead cutting and then the fuel pumps will still fit. I will also have to trim the oil cooler shroud. There will be a 1 inch lip around the top holding the top on which I have measured for and still fits. The front edge of the tank clears the hood by 1 inch or more. Don't want to cut it too close.
The tallest attachment is the vent fitting. It still clears the hood with 2 inches to spare.
It looks like this would work. Now to see how much $$$$ the fuel cell makers want for a custom size. I will also ask if they are aware of the Holley Hydramat.
John
Big thanks to Brian Boss from German Parts and Restoration www.gprparts.com !
He took the initiative to contact me after I posted a thread looking for a vintage looking anti-roll bar. I wanted a large bar that would work with the car's original and fairly unusual arms and drop links. I did not want one all red or blue anodized parts that would not look 70s.
Brian pointed out the RSR bar made by Tarret Engineering had a vintage look. He was able to work with Tarret to get me just the bar and bearing blocks for a fraction of what the whole RSR kit would cost. Finding the right parts takes an incredible amount of time on a project like this so it is really nice to have informed help from a vendor! Thanks also to Tarret for agreeing to package this!
So here is some anti-roll bar porn:
The RSR bar is beautifully made and plated and the bearings are anodized in grey.
I zinc plated and chromated the original arms using a Caswell Plating kit and got new rod ends and hardware for the drop links.
On the car:
Thanks again Brian!
John
Custom 15 gallon ATL fuel cell ordered. I was pleasantly surprised to find this was only a few hundred dollars more than a stock size fuel cell would have been. ATL said that getting a rectangular cell made was not that time consuming thus not much more expensive. Their people were super helpful. I got two pickups in opposite back corners to avoid fuel starvation.
Should be here in a couple weeks.
Pyrotect had an even lower quote for a custom cell with the same fixings. I would have picked them but the car originally had an ATL cell. Never knew much about Pyrotect before now but they have some good products at very good prices.
John
I'm thinking our car is back there somewhere
Your sway bar arms look like the arms provided in the H&H sway bar kits. I have H&H bars on my car, purchased and installed around 1980, and the arms are practically identical, except the Cad plating on mine has long deteriorated. Your installation looks great.
Thanks Mike. I've been wondering who made it.
I have been making some progress I need to post.
John
Your work and skills on a 914 is an inspiration to anyone new to these cars!
Thanks for such a detailed build!
Cheers
Nemi
I am running two pumps and would plan to run both at all times.
The car will be carbureted which helps a little because the bowls store some fuel.
John
John, I found this in my collections, I can't remember if it was in 84' or 85'. Taken at
Pocono IMSA event. Could this be your car?
Sorry for poor clarity. Did not own a zoom lens yet.
Keep up the good work.
Attached thumbnail(s)
Ha, that's Ray Hendricks' car, now owned by gms here on the board! He'll be happy to get that picture ...
The only other clear shot in period,again 84' / 85' of 914.
Anyone here have this one?
Attached thumbnail(s)
Actually no - I think that looks like Doug Arnao's tube frame Fierro-based 914! I recognize the spoiler (Huffaker Fierro piece) on it because I bought it from Doug and had it on my car at one point. And I recall that he had a deal with Hoosier (note the sticker on side) which was unusual in road racing at the time. I posted on another thread that I thought he had raced the car but couldn't find evidence in records available online. But that sure looks like the car. Any shots of the front by chance? Fred's car would have Apcar on the front, Doug's would've had VCI (his automotive business).
I can check with Doug on this ...
Thanks for the info Doug. I can now label my pictures appropriately. Very cool
learning the history.
Cheers,Dion
This has to be one of the coolest 914 race history threads so far. Thanks for posting all this.
And so this happened today...............
I'm selling a 76 project car and have it listed on craigslist. A local Guy from Indiana contacts me about it, I call him and we talk 914s and during that conversation he says he dad use to race a 914 in the IMSA series back in the day. It was Silver 914 #21 owned by Le Trianon Jewelry Corp. He has been looking for the car for years. I made a quick call to Glenn Stazak and he was almost 100% sure that it is the same car that you have.
I call the guy back and he says that he has pictures from back then AND the engine that was ran in it during the 24hrs of Daytona.
He is coming over tomorrow to check out the 76 and hopefully bring some pictures and info with him. I know this picture maybe small, but that is your car in the top photo.
I am working on getting him and John together to talk. Small world huh?
Attached image(s)
Open palm slapping forehead mouth open Great Story Garold. If I wasn't getting ready to sell off my house, shop and extra stuff to build a new house I would love to get an old IMSA car to restore and race with you guys .
[quote name='Garold Shaffer' date='Nov 24 2015, 08:52 PM' post='2269291']
And so this happened today...............
I'm selling a 76 project car and have it listed on craigslist. A local Guy from Indiana contacts me about it, I call him and we talk 914s and during that conversation he says he dad use to race a 914 in the IMSA series back in the day. It was Silver 914 #21 owned by Le Trianon Jewelry Corp. He has been looking for the car for years. I made a quick call to Glenn Stazak and he was almost 100% sure that it is the same car that you have.
I call the guy back and he says that he has pictures from back then AND the engine that was ran in it during the 24hrs of Daytona.
He is coming over tomorrow to check out the 76 and hopefully bring some pictures and info with him. I know this picture maybe small, but that is your car in the top photo.
I am working on getting him and John together to talk. Small world huh?
[/quote
Holy Crap !
What a world
Keep us posted.
I will try to get in contact once the holiday guests have gone home.
Would love to hear the story behind the car and get more pictures.
I have made more progress on it that I need to post.
John
John,
Is this your car? Don't know if you've seen this one before.
Paul
That's it!
What ever happened to the black IMSA race car that was in the vintage magazine pic?
Is that car still around?
Huge flares on it.
I've been battling some illnesses for a while now but I hope to get back into restoring
and driving again soon. The car has been safely stored in my garage. I will be selling
some parts for other projects that never got going to provide some funds to get this
one done.
John
Cool new pictures Glenn!
I've been thinking about this for a whole year while trying to recover.
Somebody buy some of the parts I have for sale and help out!
John
After 7 years, I think this resto has reached the 50-50 point.
I've spent $50,000 and I am 50% done.
I have been battling several illnesses the last few years so not much has happened.
I hope that is about to change soon.
John
John, we need an Update!
agreed
Ten years ago my Son sold John a 2.5 L IMSA engine . I too would like to know progress. Al
OK, I am back again. I hope to stay again this time. The last 5 years I have battled three serious health issues which kept me from doing much of anything other than staying employed. In 2018 we decided we were tired of living 1000 feet from the ocean. We spent a year remodeling and selling our old house and now live 7 miles inland. Priority items for the new house were a dedicated shop and at least one working toilet. Found the perfect house that came with this cinder block construction, climate controlled shop. After working outside near the ocean or in my dinkly, non AC-ed garage, this is an unimaginable luxury. I feel super fortunate every time I walk into it. The day we moved in:
Of course, it has a whole lot more tools and clutter in it now, but the cars are still the same:
And here is the IMSA 914 I have been working on for 10+ years:
More to come in a minute.
John
The engine that Blake Meredith built for me has been preserved inside my house or now inside my shop. I turn it over by hand every few months and it feels smooth. Looking forward to hearing it rev.
I did get a custom made ATL fuel cell, built to my exact dimensions, with 2 pickups, one in each rear corner. I have a lot of the fuel lines made. All the fuel components are duplicated until they reach the fuel Y connection. They go from pickup, to screen filter, to Holley fuel pump, to check valve, to Y , then Fram fuel filter and then they will go the back of the car using Chris Foley's AN fitting fuel lines.
I had to remake the whole fuel cell containment structure and reshape the oil cooler shroud to go under it. The custom fuel cell will hold about 16.5 gallons. It was a lot of effort to accommodate the larger cell, but I think it will be worth it.
Still more to come in a minute...
John
The oil handling system at the front of the car is nearly done as well. I have decided I don't want the oil return line going under my left foot, so it will come through the driver side heater tube and then up and over the normal fuel tank area. From there it goes to a thermostat, oil cooler, then an oil filter, then into the custom tank the original owners fabricated. The oil tank has a breather I need to make a mounting bracket for. The return line to the car goes out the bottom of the tank and then into the passenger side heater tube.
Figuring out how to run these lines, and then getting them made and installed is a challenge with this thick braided line. I have a set of cool tools, vice jaws, special AN wrenches, aeroquip lube. All highly recommended. I made a custom shaped oil cooler shroud to work with my larger fuel cell.
You can see the thermostat hiding down in there.
But wait, there is still more ahead.
John
I had to remove more of the bulkhead to fit the larger fuel cell, so I reinforced the "strut tower structure" using some 1/8 steel strips, welded on to form a triangle shape. Look at the picture just above the fuel cell.
The interior of the car looks like this. I cut out the driver side of the cross bar to fit the Kirkey Racing seat as low as possible. Done this way, it actually fits pretty low in the car, maybe as low as a stock 914 seat. The car needs a harness bar and a brace for the rear of the seat. Need to look at the rule books for various historic series to figure out what to do here. The original car had one eye bolt that went through the firewall backed up by a pretty big washer.
The doors that came with the car are Marathon Blue metallic. The car was originally yellow if I am not mistaken.
One more post for tonight.
John
OK, final post for tonight. Welded up an access hole that was cut for the oil return line. Like I said, I decided to not have the line under my left foot. Feels good to have the welder out and making some progress.
Here is the hole mostly welded up and before grinding.
You can just see the return oil line which I snaked down into the heater tube.
Still a lot of work to be done, but most of the welding and grinding should be over...
Another thing which took about a year after moving here was to re-restore my Rockin 914, which is running great and looks good from 10 feet away. It needed a lot of rust repair and a whole repaint.
John
Glad to see you back!
This is awesome. Glad to see you back at it John.
Alright John is back!
John, glad to hear you are back and feeling OK . can't wait to hear Blake's Engine run again. Al
Thanks everyone, I am glad to be here.
Getting my blue 914 running again really motivated me to finish this one.
There are a lot of amazing build threads going on since I was active.
I especially love the Sonauto #40 project being done by Marty. The perfect person to take care of that car.
John
John,
Glad you are better. You are still making more progress than me.
Peter
Been a long time since I read through this thread! Very glad to know you're okay and the project is still around. Looks good!
This thread, which I had not seen before today, brings back many memories. I raced a 914-6 back in the day when this car was raced. I do not remember the car but lots of the things done to it are what we did in the day. The fuel discriminator valve is one of those things. The rules back then said that the valve had to be in sight of the fueler. They were mostly mounted inside on the rollbar just like the original photos show. We could run a 26 gallon fuel cell back then. Car would run for over 2 hours on a fill.
Glad to hear that you are over your health issues and have resumed the restoration.
Old guys and old cars rock and rule.....LOL
Thanks for the comments, folks!
914World community has provided a lot of the motivation and information I needed to keep me continuing on.
Hey 9146GUY, do you have any pictures of 914s racing in the 70s and 80s to share?
John
Glad to hear you're doing better, John. Awesome new shop, too! Let me know if you ever need a hand with anything. I think you're probably a bit closer now that you're inland instead of beachside.
Welcome back, John. Glad to see that the IMSA project car will be going forward. You’ve come so far with it and it’s in the right hands.
Good to hear a health story with a positive outcome.
Welcome back.
Your big project continues...you've got an enthusiastic audience.
Roll on.
OK John, you asked ..... I don't have pictures of other cars but I do have some of mine
Daytona 1972 Finale. Dave White at the wheel.
I bought the car from Dave in December 1975 and prepped the car and went to the 24HR of Daytona in 1976.
I had won the SE Division B Production in a 911 and worked a deal with Goodyear. We ran their new radial GT street tire and ran the entire race on one set of very bald tires.
Notice that the headlights still pop up, nothing in the spoiler. At Daytona that cost almost 8 MPH on the banking. That was before they put the chicane in the back straight and added lights around the track. The driving lights on the front bumper were more for corner lighting than straight ahead.
Part 2 coming....
Part 2....
Fast forward to 1979, 24 Hr at Daytona. Rules changes over the years. Wide bodywork, lights in bumpers, rear spoiler.
Part 3 coming......
Other changes for short tracks. Lumbermans 500 at Mid Ohio
Note rear wing. Looks like a 911 wing was grafted on the rear decklid. Rules stated that air couldn't pass under a rear wing/spoiler. Added plexiglass along the leading edges got us around that rule.
The difference at Mid Ohio was with the small spoiler turn 1 was brake, downshift, drive thru turn
With the big wing turn 1 was lift, turn in and accelerate thru corner.
AH the memories.....
Great pictures and stories.
Are all the pictures of the same car, just with different paint schemes?
So popping up your headlights would slow the car 8 mph at Daytona? That is interesting and I guess it makes sense given how large they are and located at the front of the car.
Thanks for sharing!
John
All the same car...Just updated over the years based on rules changes
Saving the front bumper.
The fiberglass front bumper was heavily damaged and repaired over the years. Several
places had an inch of bondo and kitty hair to repair major cracks. The bumper also was
too narrow to fit the car after I corrected the damage to the front end as shown earlier in the thread.
I ground down the old repairs and tapered their edges. I used to build surfboards way
back so I am familiar with fiberglass repairs. It used to make me super itchy doing this
work 30 years ago but now it does not bother me anymore for some reason, probably the
fact that I actually use safety gear now. Reshaped the bumper to fit the correct
width front end. This took many iterations to get it close.
Repaired the damage using layers of polyester resin and fiberglass cloth.
I should have weighed it before and after the repairs, but it is probably less than half the weight it used to be.
John
BYW, the fiberglass repairs were done years ago, I just never posted them before.
Still trying to catch up with everything that has happened.
John
There is a large hole in the firewall which connects the passenger area to the front of
the car. This was cut to accommodate the bottom of the oil tank, which you can see
sitting on the angle iron platform. This hole needs to be closed up for safety and rules compliance.
The hole has a very complex shape, so I decided to tackle it using several pieces. Just
getting a piece cut off from a stock firewall will not work because of the size and shape
of the oil tank they used.
Make a template:
Make it in metal:
Weld it on:
Keep in mind that this is the deepest part of the footwell under the dashboard. I pretty much have to jam myself in there with my welder and other tools. I can work for 30
minutes or so before I need to crawl out and do some serious stretching. It is hard to get nice looking welds working like this.
John
Made another large patch to close up more of the hole:
Another step closer to being a runner...
I am thinking of making a removal panel for the lower part of the hole to make installing
and servicing the oil and fuel lines easier. Maybe rivetted or bolted on?
John
Hey John, good to hear from you.
How are you Paul? How is your car running?
Sharing some parts porn, mostly to document for myself what parts I have for this project
and what I still need to find. Some of these parts I bought more than 5 years ago so it
is getting hard to remember them all.
Some engine mount goodness. The plates are from Mittelmotor and took a while to get
here. The rubber piece is the new URO reproduction for $140ish, while the originals
were up to $2000+ before these came out. I got the engine mount from ebay, I believe.
Altogether this is $1000+ just to mount the front of the engine to the car. These parts
work with the engine mount that was welded into the car when I got it.
A whole collection of Aeroquip fittings to finish the fuel and oiling systems. The yellow
thing is an actual size cardboard template of a fitting I wanted to try out before buying
one and then not have it fit. These parts are $$ especially for the -12 and -16 sizes.
New sway a way axles, pedal cluster rebuilt by the one and only Bruce Stone, and toe link adjusters that can be welded on the stop toe alignment changes.
Gotta love new and refinished parts.
John
Finishing up the firewall. Created more patches and a service plate to close it up.
I thought it would be helpful to be able to remove this plate in order to access this area.
Using the paper template I made to locate the fitting at the bottom of the oil tank.
Hole drilled using a hole saw. -16 oil return line attached to the oil tank. I will add a
firewall grommet (still in the mail) to close up the gap.
Looking forward to not working down under the dash anymore. Everything takes twice
as long and it is hard to make nice welds.
Next I need to finish the fuel system in the front of the car.
John
I have reached a major milestone: the fuel and oil lines in the front of the car are all
made up and attached for the first time!
Of course, it will all come apart again for painting later...
I did not like the way the fuel system routing was working out. The lines were too
long and I did not like having any fuel system components in front of the fuel cell. So
I took it all apart and did some measuring and mock ups.
I realized I could make it all fit under the cowl, much like how the original builders had
it set up. Here is how it turned out:
Using the old fuel lines I was able to make up all the new lines without having to use
any new AN line, except for the lines connecting to the Tangerine Racing fuel lines with
AN fittings from Chris Foley. I needed several feet of new line for each of those. I can
make the -6 lines with fittings at both ends in about 10 minutes or less (total guess).
I never really timed it but it does not take that long per line.
I will add Adel clamps or bolts to hold each component place. I will attach the fuel
lines in strategic places so nothing can rub on the steering or sway bar, etc.
Here is a diagram of the layout fuel system. I realize if I put the front of the car at
the bottom of the diagram it would match the photos better. You get the idea. The
check valves are there so that if one fuel pump is dead or turned off, the other one
can still pump fuel without it just going back into the fuel cell.
I also changed the routing of the oil lines so that the oil goes through the oil filter
before going to the thermostat and radiator. Someone made that suggestion, can't
recall who, but thanks for the tip. Here is a diagram of the oil line layout.
Really stoked to have this part done.
John
Took it all out again to clean up and paint the front trunk area. It only took about an
hour to remove everything with the help of a battery powered impact tool.
Welded all the unneeded holes in the top of the firewall.
You can see the oil cooler shroud I made from sheet aluminum. I started with the
fiberglass shroud available from various sellers. It ended up being too tall and going
too far back to accomodate the larger fuel cell I had ordered. So I made my own with
sheet metal sides with welded on nuts and sheet aluminum top pieces. The front piece
is designed to be removable with the fuel cell in the car to replace the oil cooler if
needed.
John
All the oil cooler shroud removed...
Now to clean this all up and paint it with some battleship grey automotive paint.
Working with a local hot rod paint shop. They are trying to match the original silver
and yellow colors on a sample of the body work I left with them. The paint tech first
reaction to the silver was "roofing paint".
Who knows, that could be what they used. The paint job is pretty skillfully applied with
no runs and very even coverage.
John
Boneyard of cutoffs and leftovers from fuel system redesign. Not too much got wasted
and I like the routing and lengths much better. The hose fittings are reusable and will
be needed for the engine bay routing.
Starting to pressure test all the fuel lines. After this photo was taken I went up to 90 psi
without any bubbles forming. I will test all of the components before putting them back
in the car and pouring in actual gasoline.
John
So good to see you making progress again, John. Really sorry as I had no idea the challenges you faced over the past few years. Hope we get together sooner rather than later - haven't seen you guys in a long time!
Quick note - might be worth it to inspect those fittings before you reuse them. I know that the o-rings inside of them break down over time and they can be replaced with kits available online. One of them cost a friend a $6k engine!
Gosh, this is so good to see. Thanks for posting, the progress is great and that warms my heart because it tells me that your doing much better. Are you planning on attending any events in the future? I'm going to the Route 66 on the 20th and probably won't be back till after the 4th, going Grand Touring in the GT4, coast to coast and back. Haven't seen those people in 12 years. It will be nice to catch up. I'll make an effort to talk to you when I get home.
Looking forward to seeing you.
Joe
John just a suggestion, maybe you already covered it earlier but make sure the oil tank is higher than than the oil pump in the car. Gravity will get oil to the pump that way. Also make sure the feed side from the tank to the engine is -16. It needs to be that size for the length of the run. Return lines can be -12.
I had a customer that I built an engine for and he was going to put it in a 4 conversion to a 6. When he brought me the motor back mostly blown up I asked him where the oil tank was located and guess what. The oil tank was located too low in the car, below the pump.
Good to see an old car being brought back as it was in the day.
Hey guys thanks for the feedback.
9146Guy: Yes, the oil tank is pretty high in the car, about the level of the standard gas tank in a 914. I am using -16 return line to the engine. Thanks for the tips, keep them coming! I am trying to learn the intricacies of Porsche race car construction from wherever I can. Always eager for more advice.
I am glad I tested all my braided lines. All my hose ends and hoses were good, but the fuel Y block I had leaked like a sieve. Whoever was working that day ran the tap way too far into the block causing the two hose ends to collide and gall each other up:
It felt like the pipe threads were bottoming out and sealing, but really the ends were colliding and messing each other up. I have another y fitting I am using instead.
Painted the front trunk area.
Started to re-install everything.
John
Working my way from front to back, trying to seal up the driver's compartment from the front trunk and engine bay. Welded up more holes and primed the footwell area.
All this welding and grinding just takes forever...
WHEEL and TIRE sizes?
I have 12x15 Gottis J55As for the rear wheels. The Yokohama tires on them are another 1.5 inches wider at 13.5 inches and they rub on the inside. Not sure I can space them our any farther. There is a company in France still selling Gotti wheel components, so I may be able to get narrower barrels and seals are rebuild these to be 10x15s. Anyone have any advice on how easy or hard this would be to do?
There are also not many tire choices available in R15 size, looks like Hosier A7 and R7 are about it (345R15). The R7s would be an ok choice I think.
This same French company still sells wheels with a range of sizes and fitments, including R16 size. I am considering going for a set of those maybe 10x16 to increase the range of tires I can get. I want to stay with wheel sizes and style from the late 70s to early 80s and I really like the look of the Gottis.
What are people running on their 914 race cars these days for wheel and tire sizes?
I can use some advice here...
John
Link to the source for Gotti wheels:
http://www.gbsalpine.com/wheel/gotti/eng.html
Enjoying the rain today, which is cooling things off.
John
Looks like the car is coming along well!
I've heard of that supplier of Gotti parts, but no experience. I recall that at one time Jongbloed used the same rim halves as Gottis. Jongbloed is still around - give them a call.
On my 914 racecar, I run 16 x 11 and 16 x 12.5, but it's not really vintage focused and has really wide bodywork. There may be more options in the 16" sizes than 15, but if you are open to running slicks, look into Avon tires. They have lots of sizes including wide 15" tires.
Scott
Been working steadily on the passenger compartment of the car. Welding up many holes to the engine compartment, etc. One large issue was the hole that was cut to access the front of the engine. A cover was made by the original builders with dzus fasteners from the cut off piece:
I liked the dzus fasteners, but there was up to 1/2 inch of gaps around the edges where it was cut. It also was pretty warped and did not fit well or securely. I decided to add strips of metal around the edges to form a flange and completely close up the hole.
This proved to be more challenging than I thought it would...
Shaping and plug welding on the metal was easy enough but it proved very difficult to get the piece to fit nicely into the hole. There are lots of curves and contours it has to fit around on all sides. In the end I welded bolts to the engine side of the hole to snug down the cover. This allows it to be removed using an impact in a minute or so but still fit nice and tightly. I have 1/16 inch high temp rubber gasket to put in between to make a really good seal (not done this yet).
This took a lot of putting it on, taking it off, using the shrinker here and there, hammering, swearing and the whole process generally being a pain in the butt. Here is the engine side, where I reinforced each bolt with a little metal pad.
The hole of course is way bigger than needed to access the front of the engine, but it will make it nice to work on it. I could have welded the original piece on and cut a smaller hole more like most people create, but this is how the car was done originally and I wanted to keep it like this. Dzus fasteners would have been nice too, but I don't think they would hold it as securely and in the age of battery impacts I don't think it will take much longer to get it off.
The square hole in the middle is also original to the car, which I decided to leave.
John
Been starting on the transmission for this car. I pressure cleaned what is supposed to be the better of the two spares I have. Someone painted this transmission silver in the past and some of the paint came off. I like the patina look it has. I got a rebuilt starter and some re-plated mounting hardware from Bruce Stone.
I also replaced the bushings in the shift rod using the two different size sockets method and a shop press. This makes it pretty easy, I have no idea how I did this on my other 914 back when I did not have a press.
The cold chisel is for refreshing the stake marks in the center of the roll pin so that it does not slide out. I am sure it will rust itself in there soon enough and be a pain to get out again next time. Pelican sells brass inserts, which look sweet but I did not see until after I replaced these with the plastic ones. The old bushings basically crumbled into dust in my hands.
John
This is really coming along! You are truly saving a piece of history here.
I really enjoy watching this restoration as it moves along. Nice work.
John, I’m really enjoying this. Progress is looking great. So cool seeing IMSA history being saved. Loved going to Pocono seeing these and March’s & 962’s. Carry on!
Dion
John, this brings me a huge amount of joy to see! I look forward to the day we see this thing driving!!!
Glad to hear your health is improving, cheers!
Thomas
Thanks for the support everyone!
Your front end panel lives on as you see Thomas.
How are your own projects going?
John
Here is a video of the engine I am planning to use in this car. It was built by Blake Meredith, and he allowed me to share this video. The sound synch is off at the beginning of the video probably due to my amateur conversion of the video format.
https://youtu.be/-MJCXKLQLoY
A few specs on the engine from Blake:
Built on a 4R case with 87.5mm big dome pistons, a boat tailed case and polished stock rods. Blake added added ARP rod and head bolts, had the case line bored and cylinder registers decked by CE. The whole assembly has been balanced. It has Nickies by LN Engineering on it. The comp ratio is 9.9 to 1. It has 46I 40E valves with 36mm ports on the intake and exhaust. It has GE40 cams with Jerry Wood valve springs and titanium retainers. It has the tall 36mm intake manifolds with 40mm Webers on it.
It sounds awesome and I can't wait to get it in the car!
John
Painted the cockpit. Glad to be done welding and grinding in here.
Starting to reassemble the front end.
Mostly back together.
Added a fuel shut off valve and fuel pressure sensor. These are located after the final fuel filter and before the line going into the tunnel line.
More to come.
John
With the cockpit painted, I can button up a few things. The oil supply fitting on the bottom of the tank is pretty scarred up. I used a Koul tools hone to clean it up.
This is a 37 degree diamond hone for resurfacing AN fittings. It looks like it did a nice job, I hope it does not leak.
Cut a hole in the very flexible rubber on the firewall sealing grommet and slide it down the -16 oil supply hose.
Attach the oil line, slide down the grommet, drill and rivet it in place.
I will add some edging where the oil line goes into the heater tube.
Now the firewall is pretty much closed up. Taking off this service plate to connect to the AN fuel lines in the tunnel was a big help, and I think it was worth the effort.
Very satisfying to get this done.
John
Getting ready to test fit the engine so I can work on the oil and fuel connections.
Original style engine mount.
Now I need a transmission...
John
Before I forget, I added a rubber gasket and lock nuts to the engine service plate. This thing was a serious pain to get to fit nicely but I think it turned out well.
More to come...
OK thanks, that is a great tip, Jim.
I think I will order some in the sizes I have just in case.
Are they considered a permanent fix, or a temporary solution?
John
Time to refresh this core transmission.
The synchros and dog teeth are pretty worn out everywhere except 5th gear.
Pulled it apart and replaced all the synchros and dog teeth.
I also replaced the first/reverse slider and 2nd/3rd slider.
The mainshaft bearing race was broken so that got replaced as well.
I bought the chromoly bearing retainer, hoping it will keep the new bearing in one piece.
John
Now I have 2 big decisions to make and I could use some input.
First, I have a set of 930 stub axles, CVs and the corresponding sway-away axles for a 914. They are stronger and the CVs are available for $80 from pelican. Downside is I have to destroy the existing rear bearings in my axles to use them, which were rebuilt by PMB.
If I have 200 HP to the wheels are the 930 CVs a necessary or worthwhile upgrade?
Second, should I upgrade to the billet intermediate plate at this HP level?
If I do, will I have to reset the pinion depth? That is something I can't do myself and would need to find a shop here in Florida that can do it. I know this is overkill for a typical 914, but with 12 inch rear tires and a 2.5L six, is this when the upgrade is worth while?
I am not adverse to starting with the 914 axles and upgrading down the road. Pulling the engine and transmission is not that time consuming. I would hate to break the smaller axles or CVs the first time at the track though.
What do you guys think?
Cross posting this in the paddock.
John
If this 914 will see track time, overbuild where you can. My .02.
I imagine with the kind of grip those tyres can generate with the combo of 200HP , I’d say do the upgrade if at all possible. It won’t be detrimental except to the wallet
It’s looking great John. Lots of nice work.
OK, having discussed this with various people I think I will start out with the 94mm CVs and then upgrade to 100s down the road if I need to. It seems like the 108s are totally overkill for the engine I have. I think I will just hold on to those parts for now in case I do ever need them, or maybe trade them to someone with a set of 100mm stub axles and matching bits.
It seems like the consensus is good cooling is the key to keeping your transmission alive, so I will focus on that for now. I will try running the cooler and pump that came with the car because these are probably the race parts used at Sebring and Daytona, etc.
The original adapters are all -8 AN so that is what I will use.
John
Shane really helped me out by donating most of a set of axles and CVs he got from a salvaged 914. They were missing the CVs on one end so I bought the machined
type I style from PMB performance, who also helped me out with a lot of the fixings needed. I have no idea what vehicle those CV gaskets are for but I realized they are
way too small to fit. Ordered a set of the 94mm ones.
Using the 94mm CVs and axles until I get a lot of the other issues with the car ironed out, like getting the engine to run and not leak oil and fuel.
I also like the idea of breaking the CV joint instead of my ring or pinion gears.
Finished up the transmission refurb. Added an oil inlet fitting at front for cool oil returning from the transmission radiator. Copying the approach Shane used for his race box.
This should bring cool oil to the ring and pinion gears, then flow towards the back cooling the other gears.
Added another fitting at the back end to extract oil to go to the pump. If this leaks I will add some JB weld to the inside and outside.
John
Time to mate up the engine and transmission.
And then, just like that, after a mere 12 years, the engine is installed in the car!
Did you feel the disturbance in the force?
Now on to routing the oil and fuel lines in the engine bay.
John
Nice Work John
Loving all of this progress John! Nice work!
r
Thanks guys, this thread is keeping me motivated!
Mocking up the exhaust. I will add gaskets and lock nuts when I am satisfied with everything. I want to get all the various engine bay lines and parts in place to make sure everything will work together before finalizing anything. Need to add the axles, shift rod, clutch cable, etc. to complete the mock up. Want to make sure the oil lines are not touching the exhaust. Getting everything to fit and not interfere in the space available is one of the bigger challenges of building a customized car like this.
Adding a muffler for the initial testing. There is no way I can run open exhaust in the neighborhood where I live without people calling the national guard.
The muffler occupies the same central space where the original builders placed the transmission cooler, so I will have to figure out another location for it until I can install megaphones or some other kind of split exhaust system.
At this point, I just want to get the car running and start debugging the various systems.
Next steps are completing the oil lines.
I want to keep the oil supply line at the same level all the way to the engine so that gravity will ensure there is oil waiting at the pickup point. I will make sure the oil line is not the lowest part of the car and is as protected as possible.
The return line I may loop over the transmission on its way back to the front of the car. I think this will work because the oil is being actively pumped out of the engine into the return line.
Does anyone see any problems with that approach?
John
I need to add a rear anti roll bar to the list of things that need to be mocked up.
That may be one part I never bought for this car.
John
Don't need a Rear Bar for Racing
I have been working on the car a lot, but not posting anything.
Decided it was time to install the braking system. The car has zero brake components installed other than the brake pedal. I installed a new master cylinder, new copper nickel brake lines, disassembled and cleaned the original brake proportioning valve, and then installed the beautiful PMB rebuilt calipers. The fronts are their 908 reproduction calipers with quick brake pad change hardware.
Installed the brake fluid reservoir using a bracket copied from the stock sheet metal.
I installed the brake fluid feed lines onto the master cylinder on my work bench, and then fed them up from underneath the car. This took 3 minutes and was easy compared to trying to jam them in while under the car with limited space to work.
Bruce Stone tracked down some brake fittings for me, which was a big help. One fitting is still missing in this picture. Can you spot it?
Now brakes are working, just need a few more rounds of bleeding.
John
Moved on to installing the front sway bar. The challenge here is that the two large bearings need to be exactly parallel to each other or they bind the bar up and add resistance that should not be there. I wanted the bar to move with light finger pressure when the drop links were not connected. This turned out to be a pain in the ass until I figured out a (primitive) system for aligning them.
I started by getting one side parallel by installing the bar most of the way and adding washers under the three bolts holding the bearing on until it was pointing exactly at the other bearing. Then I moved the bar to the other side and repeated the process. At first, I tried sticking the bar through both bearings, but it bound up so badly this made it impossible to see what adjustments were needed. After trying a washer here and there and getting frustrated, I pulled the bar out of the one that was aligned and left it in the unaligned bearing only.
Looking down you can see the sway bar is way off to one side.
Added a washer to compensate, still off to the side.
Added another washer and the side-to-side alignment looks good.
But it is too high.
Removed a washer from the lower bolt and it lined up nicely. Doing it systematically like this saved a lot of frustration because guessing and trial and error were not working. I had several thicknesses of washers ready but did not end up needing them.
Sway bar and drop links installed. Wrote on the car how many washers were needed where on each side. Should probably weld on some shim plates so the washers don’t go everywhere anytime this bar is taken off. Something to think about if you are installing this type sway bar.
Still more work to post...
John
you think you will make it out for the 2022 season?
Write the washer #s in the appropriate spots with a Sharpie. No one will ever see them. They will last forever.
Hey Glenn, I am just enjoying taking my time bolting stuff on and doing a little light fab work. This is really the enjoyable part of the build where there's no more rust and crud to deal with and it's all just putting on shiny new stuff.
That is a great idea Rhody, I am going to do that right away. I don't want to have to go through the process of figuring this out again. Lol
John
Time to work on the mysteries of the electrical system, starting with mounting the battery. The original builders had the battery under the cowl, which I could not make work. I at least wanted to find room in the front trunk area. It took a while to find a battery the right size and shape that would fit in the room I had available. I wanted to use a 1970s looking lead acid battery and not a lithium ion or other modern (and much smaller) battery.
I cut a 914 battery tray down to size and made a mount for it that is bolted to the bulkhead panel in two places and the firewall in one place. There is a steel strap going around the whole battery that is welded to the bottom of the mount. I added a final steel strap going to the bulkhead to stop it from vibrating. Even this small battery weighs 25 pounds and I don't want it going anywhere in a crash.
Here is a side view of the mount.
The front of the car is pretty full now.
John
The carbs have been sitting for almost 10 years, so I thought it would be prudent to clean and rebuild them. I have an ultrasonic cleaner with heat that will hold one carb body. Here is the before picture:
Here is the other carb which has been through 4 hours of 50C plus ultrasound treatment. The machine works on 30 minute cycles, which 30 minutes does pretty much nothing, many cycles are required.
The outside of the carbs are much cleaner, and so are the little passages inside, I hope.
I blew compressed air through all the passages and thoroughly dried them after the cleaning. I also examined and blew out all the jets.
The air bleed adjusters all had slightly different settings, which I did not want to disturb, so I left them in place. The throttle shafts moved smoothly and freely and the butterfly plates all closed tightly so I left them in place too.
These were very clean inside and I probably did not need to go through all this, but I needed to know their state, and once apart it made sense to clean and refresh it all.
Ready for reassembly. I spent one weekend on the teardown and cleaning, and the next on reassembly.
John
Picked up the PMO spacer kit to keep the carbs a little cooler. Comes with longer studs, which you will probably need, and new 10mm/12mm metal lock nuts, which makes installation a lot easier against the tight carb bodies compared to normal 12mm lock nuts. If you have installed these, you will know what I mean.
Following a great tip from Ben (mb911) I got them from Larry at Youroil.net. I think it took less than a week for them to show up at my doorstep.
So here is where I have been hanging out a lot lately. I find it easiest to work on the engine if I kneel in the rear trunk. You can see my feet at the bottom of the picture (I am standing for the picture).
A lot of the rear trunk sheet metal was cut away by the original builders, for cooling maybe? Or for easier access to the transmission and starter?
You can see that I have fully plumbed the fuel system, with the fuel regulator and gauge on the right side. There is a fuel return going back to the fuel cell, I am wondering if I need some kind of restrictor after the second carb to maintain some fuel pressure at the carb fuel inlet ports? I have a fuel pressure gauge on both side of the fuel pressure regulator so I should be able to see what happens with the engine running. I am using the PMO fuel blocks to make the AN connections.
On the side of the trans you can see the Rich Johnson throttle linkage, which is a nice piece that is easy to install. Still have to fiddle with all the geometry to get the linkage working nicely.
I also have the oil system fully plumbed, so I need to build enough of the electrical system to try starting this beast. I plan to test each system carefully for leaks and proper operation as I go...
John
Which leads me to today's question about alternator connections.
There is a thick red wire, which goes to the main lug on the starter (and a very large wire goes from there to the battery positive terminal).
There is a thin blue wire, which I believe goes to the alternator light on the gauges.
There is a plug with 3 wires that just happens to plug perfectly into this crusty old 914 voltage regulator I had on the shelf. I am pretty sure that is what is needed to complete the alternator connections.
I ordered a new voltage regulator from 914 Rubber as part of my Black Friday splurge.
What do you all think, have I got it correct???
John
John this may help some...I'm looking for another chart
That is very helpful John, I think it confirms what I believe.
Now I am trying to figure out where to put the kill switch inside the cockpit where the driver can reach it while belted in. Going to use a pull cable from rennline to actuate it from outside the car so corner workers can shut the car off too.
Thinking the same for the fire bottle.
Will it be weird to have two pull cables on the outside of the car, one for electrical cut off and one for fire? Not sure I have seen that but I admit it is not something I have looked for…
John
I thought most rules had batteries in plastic boxes so nothing can fall on the posts and spark?
HSR rules don't require it.
I will check svra rules.
John
Worth checking rules, you might be fine without the box. But they will probably want a rubber boot covering the positive terminal. The generic ones like any auto parts store (or Amazon) has will work fine.
The car's coming along nicely - keep up the good work.
John
In my old car we had 2 kill switches, one on the cowl and one next to the driver seat in the center of the car. They were wired together so either one would kill the car.
Make sure you use the kill switches with the alternator diode or it will not kill the car. Sorry I can't find any pictures.
OK, thanks George for the tips. How is your car doing? Do you daily drive it anymore?
I have been very busy working on the car since I lasted posted anything and making
good progress. I added a catch can/engine breather. I used the other half of the stock
914 battery tray I had leftover as a mount. I like how the original builders used stock
914 parts and repurposed them when they could. Wanting a vintage looking way of
keeping the catch can in place, I stole a leather strap off my wife's old purse (don't tell
her). This is an early view when I was figuring out how to attach it.
There is plenty of slack in the tubing for the engine to move around and not put tension
on it. Here is how it came out.
This is pretty amazing progress for the last three months!
Just kidding, I have done much more which I will post eventually.
John
I just noticed that last picture is still showing a big fat zip tie.
Here is a picture with the leather strap:
John
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