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914World.com _ 914World Garage _ suby hotrod motors
Posted by: charliew Feb 24 2009, 09:50 AM
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1699103
These motors are probably 15-20k once they reach the track. Just a offhand guess. As my son has spent 13k on a street motor with no tranny mods. Just motor, ported heads, bigger cams, 100mm bore, open source tuning with datalogging and utec piggyback, bigger injectors, bigger fuel pump, bigger oil pump, front mount ic, 8qt oil pan, true cold air intake and a 30r rotated turbo at 26 psi. Conservative tune about 425awhp. Also no water or alcohol injection yet.
Posted by: cobra94563 Feb 24 2009, 10:12 AM
porsche motor w/ 400+hp is more...
now..an SBC...
Posted by: J P Stein Feb 24 2009, 10:31 AM
Great power.... then comes the age old hot rod question: Now what am I gonna do with it? 
Posted by: pktzygt Feb 24 2009, 10:37 AM
Great power.... then comes the age old hot rod question: Now what am I gonna do with it?
Thats what I was thinking but I would however be interested in seeing what a 425HP suby powered 914 running on race fuel with a transmision and tires that could handle all that power could do on the track. I'll probably never find out...I'm not going to be the one to try it.
Posted by: Vacca Rabite Feb 24 2009, 10:45 AM
porsche motor w/ 400+hp is more...
now..an SBC...
Indeed. This can be done on a "budget" rebuild for an SBC, and just about any good rebuilding book will give you the exact recipe to do it.
Zach
Posted by: WRX914 Feb 26 2009, 02:14 PM
Well this is a loaded question...
A hot rod suby could be as simple as mine... A brand new shortblock from Subaru of America - $1850 delivered to your door in a box that is approximately the same size as your CPU. You by yourself can easily lift the box and its crate and load it into your trucks bed. My original engine was $2K, I would figure you could buy a blown 2.0 litre for pennies on the dollar and dress the new 2.5 with the 2.0 items. I have a stock EJ20 turbo a stock ECU and when we get 100% throttle opening, I can't image what the car will do. The guys who helped me with my car (Snail Performance) can make incredible power from a Suby. Here is their direct quote off of a differnt forum...
"This car is crazy fast if we fixed it were the throttle would be 100% open the car would most likely just burn up the tires in all gears.
Thanks for the rides Keith give me a call if you need anything.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
www.snailperformance.com"
I guess that says it all. I have driven some extremely fast things in my life of 40 years. Raced shifter carts blah blah blah....
This set up is extremely potent without really doing anyting to it. Not enough? No problem, slap a STOCK STI turbo (used off of NASIOC ~$250) IF that is not enough, and I seriously doubt 99% of the driving population would say that is not enough... $1400 for a fully tunable ECU and you have a completely sick ride on your hands that there is a slim chance in hell anyone could controll this power in a 914.
HERE IS THE KICKER...
If you blow it up... $1850 later a package from Subaru shows up at your door.
Posted by: WRX914 Feb 26 2009, 02:21 PM
Forgot to mention....
Because the engine completely dressed can be lifted by two normal sized guys, it makes the "heavy work" much easier. We did my engine swap in my garage, two guys, two jackstands, a floor jack and a Girl Scouts 4-wheel dolly with zero problems.
Oh one other thing...no need for race gas either.
Posted by: DBCooper Feb 26 2009, 03:14 PM
At what point do you consider a Porsche engine to be a "hot rod"? My stock used WRX motor cost under $1000. With the aftermarket ECU and unrestrictive exhaust (cats removed) it should be around 250hp. So what would a 250hp Porsche six cost?
Is a 300hp Porsche six a "hot rod"? A used but totally stock 300 horsepower Subaru STI motor is $2500-3500. To compare, how much would a 300hp Porsche six cost?
And those Subaru's are stock, cool running, smooth idling, drive across the country and back engines. Best thing, as Wilson mentioned, you can abuse them, beat the hell out of them, even blow them up, and make it all good again for a couple of thousand bucks.
I suppose you could spend any amount of money on any engine, but question is always what you get for what you pay for. For me 250 hp in a narrow-body 914 is all I need. That might change later, but for now...
Posted by: iamchappy Feb 26 2009, 03:32 PM
I may need to rethink my engine, sell my 400hp turbo Porsche 6 engine and buy a Subie engine to replace it, and the wife a nice used car.....
Posted by: turboman808 Feb 26 2009, 03:40 PM
Yeah the subaru motor is so freakin cheap. But dam the air cooled 911 motor looks so dam cool. 400 hp 911 motor I have to imagine would be well above 25 grand.
Posted by: Brett W Feb 26 2009, 03:52 PM
Hell a 250hp 2.0 flat six is well into the 30K range.
Real motors are expensive once you get past a certain point. Specialized parts and prep work are expensive, but they are required to get to the big numbers.
Posted by: charliew Feb 26 2009, 04:20 PM
Any suby powered 914 should be easier to handle than a 400 hp sbc because of the torque differences and the need to baby the drivetrain with the sbc. When you get past 375 hp and torque a reliable tranny gets almost as expensive as the motor but moreso with the sbc. The low torque charicteristics of the suby might mean only a 6k tranny with lsd.
Posted by: DBCooper Feb 26 2009, 04:24 PM
I may need to rethink my engine, sell my 400hp turbo Porsche 6 engine and buy a Subie engine to replace it, and the wife a nice used car.....
Hold on, hold on, there's a down side. It's not just the price of the engine. You also need a Renegade Subaru kit ($2000) radiator ($1000) programmable ECU and harness ($1500), odds and ends ($1000) and a couple of free weekends. Plus whatever suspension and other upgrades you'd do to put a six in your 914. More negatives:
1. It won't look like a big beautiful Porsche six.
2. It won't sound like a big beautiful Porsche six.
3. You won't win concours events.
4. You may not be welcome at PCA events (if they're dicks), and
5. You won't be competitive in your class if you race.
But that's not much for me to give up in comparison, and for pure no-worry fun it beats the hell out of anything else I do.
Posted by: charliew Feb 27 2009, 12:11 AM
I see no reason to buy a renegade kit. But I like to fab as most hotrodders have always done things their way anyhow. The radiator is not complicated. Anytime you put a higher horsepower motor in a car it usually needs better cooling. If you use the subary tranny you won't need the adapter, thats 500.00 you can spend toward a bremar conversion or you can even do that yourself and apply the 500 toward a obx lsd, you will need it. There are some nice cable shifters now on the market but a fiero or grand am or boxter if you gotta have german shifter and some longer cables will work and shift just as good as the 914 shifter, probably better.
Tony posted a easy to make motor support that will work. The tranny can be hung from the 914 tranny spot easily.
If you use the sti motor and want to also have the avcs you will need the sti ecu and either open source programming or a piggyback. The sti is not a simple swap if you want the avcs. Which is more torque and hp. The avcs is worth about 30 hp by itself and makes a much broader torque band.
The renegade kit is for the non welder/fabber and will help to not cut the trunk up as much with the intercooler piping they provide.
Outfront has a header for the front of the motor that may be the perfect spot for the turbo because of the room in front of the motor. That might give more room for the little wrx intercooler. The high hp sti's use a much bigger front mount ic to make big hp. A lot of them also use sophisticated water-meth injection to go with way more boost than the sti vf39 can provide. Suby hp up to about 260 is sorta cheap but after that it gets more expensive. A real awd 400hp and 375 ft lbs in a awd sti suby is at least 4k more. At least 15% of that is lost in the rear wd on the suby which won't happen in the 914.
Posted by: plymouth37 Feb 27 2009, 01:59 AM
Subie is cheaper hands down. I have about 3K into my 320HP Subie engine, try to come even close to that with a 320HP Porsche six.
Just comparing the engines themselves that is, conversion parts aside...
Posted by: DBCooper Feb 27 2009, 05:40 AM
Hell a 250hp 2.0 flat six is well into the 30K range.
Real motors are expensive once you get past a certain point. Specialized parts and prep work are expensive, but they are required to get to the big numbers.
Neighbor across the street twenty years ago was the race tech guru for Mercury Marine. He said he they were at the point where customers were paying $10,000 for every additional horse.
I've always resented turbo motors, thinking that was a unfair way to make horsepower. Having this car has changed that thinking. Screw "fair", bottom line is that horsepower is fun. And more horsepower is more fun.
Posted by: Brett W Feb 27 2009, 02:28 PM
Turbos are the best thing for street cars. NA motors that make good power suck balls for driving around town. 400Hp turbo motor is a lot more friendly than a 400hp NA motor.
Marine guys are an odd bunch. The crank case for some two stoke engines are 10K alone. That doesn't count anything inside of it.
A good race motor will run anywhere from 20k-60K for motors that run on an amateur level. Professional motors are more than that. I love to hear guys bitching about spending $2K to rebuild their T4. I have that much in the head on the Honder. (and yeah it makes torque) There ain't cheap reliable power.
Posted by: turboman808 Feb 27 2009, 02:55 PM
Turbos are the best thing for street cars. NA motors that make good power suck balls for driving around town. 400Hp turbo motor is a lot more friendly than a 400hp NA motor.
Well I got to say I have this real urge to drop a LS7 crate motor into something soon. 600 hp for less then 20 grand. What a cool motor.
Posted by: grantsfo Feb 27 2009, 03:27 PM
Subie is cheaper hands down. I have about 3K into my 320HP Subie engine, try to come even close to that with a 320HP Porsche six.
Just comparing the engines themselves that is, conversion parts aside...
Yeah I was going to say something similar. Set your goals around 300 to 350 hp and subie is hands down the cheapest compared to Porsche motors. And you can get that on pump gas.
Posted by: effutuo101 Feb 27 2009, 03:30 PM
I may need to rethink my engine, sell my 400hp turbo Porsche 6 engine and buy a Subie engine to replace it, and the wife a nice used car.....
Hold on, hold on, there's a down side. It's not just the price of the engine. You also need a Renegade Subaru kit ($2000) radiator ($1000) programmable ECU and harness ($1500), odds and ends ($1000) and a couple of free weekends. Plus whatever suspension and other upgrades you'd do to put a six in your 914. More negatives:
1. It won't look like a big beautiful Porsche six.
2. It won't sound like a big beautiful Porsche six.
3. You won't win concours events.
4. You may not be welcome at PCA events (if they're dicks), and
5. You won't be competitive in your class if you race.
But that's not much for me to give up in comparison, and for pure no-worry fun it beats the hell out of anything else I do.
Very ture, but, as a counter point, I offer:
1) /6 mounts: 275-400 + welding
2) /6 oil tank 700-1200. drilling and some costs for oil lines
3) /6 sheet metal/fiberglass for engine + parts that are not part of the fiberglass kit 250-750 (if you can find the metal)
4) some wireing, more if you go CSI
5) new gagues for the /6
6) carb tuning for non CSI
So, all in all, the cost is roughly the same less the price of the motors.
It boils down to this. the subie will create more power, weigh less, tighten up the f/r balance and provide years of trouble free service and be cheap to replace if you blow it up. The down side is that sound. Granted, if I had a subie, I would make it as quiet as possible and thrash the crap out of it.
Since I don't have a subie, I will have to live with the guilt and sound that my beautiful /6 makes everytime I run it out...
oh, and the looks of jelous 911 drivers as I motor on by. 
Posted by: WRX914 Feb 27 2009, 07:22 PM
You do not need a aftermarket ECU. You simply need to have the stock ECU tuned $150 street tune $300 dyno tune.
I'm tellin ya, this is a sick set up. It may not be the fastest 914 on the planet, but I would bet it is easily in the upper end of road legal 914's on the road today. With the old 2.0 liter it was 914-6 fast, now... no chance. And it sounds like it just ate a healthy dose of holy shit! It snaps, crackles and pops on the deacceleration EVERYONE turns and stares...not just fellow P drivers.
Posted by: fiid Feb 27 2009, 08:10 PM
Well this is a loaded question...
<<chopped>>
HERE IS THE KICKER...
If you blow it up... $1850 later a package from Subaru shows up at your door.
What you said. Although - you can have a JDM longblock for sub $1000, which means I can have 2 for the price of a new one
And the fun is just silly... tee hee
Posted by: charliew Mar 3 2009, 12:02 AM
A 2.0 wrx converted to a 2.5 shortblock is called a hybrid on nasioc. Not a real hotrod suby just a upgrade when the rod spins usually. The characteristics of the 2.5 with the 2.0 heads, cams and turbo is that it will not have enough breathing at 6k and above. The fact that it is in a lighter car might help a little when it's in the 914, but it will never have the higher rpm power of a true 2.5 sti. The sti has bigger cams and a bigger turbo to go along with the avcs cam control that gives a broader torque band especially at lower rpms. Even sti's with aftermarket cams run out of steam at high rpm without getting bigger valves and porting. The wrx 2.0 is pretty well a balanced combination that is reliable at the stock power levels until a 20 year old starts pushing it. It will live pretty well with a more mature user with mild upgrades up to about 260 awd hp on 91 octane. Adding the 2.5 shortblock gives it more low end torque and a little more hp. the noticeable improvement is usually because it's a new lower end with better ring seal and more displacement. Subys use oil when they are pushed hard and are boosted more. When they get low on oil the rods spin.
Posted by: WRX914 Mar 3 2009, 03:05 PM
A 2.0 wrx converted to a 2.5 shortblock is called a hybrid on nasioc. Not a real hotrod suby just a upgrade when the rod spins usually. The characteristics of the 2.5 with the 2.0 heads, cams and turbo is that it will not have enough breathing at 6k and above. The fact that it is in a lighter car might help a little when it's in the 914, but it will never have the higher rpm power of a true 2.5 sti. The sti has bigger cams and a bigger turbo to go along with the avcs cam control that gives a broader torque band especially at lower rpms. Even sti's with aftermarket cams run out of steam at high rpm without getting bigger valves and porting. The wrx 2.0 is pretty well a balanced combination that is reliable at the stock power levels until a 20 year old starts pushing it. It will live pretty well with a more mature user with mild upgrades up to about 260 awd hp on 91 octane. Adding the 2.5 shortblock gives it more low end torque and a little more hp. the noticeable improvement is usually because it's a new lower end with better ring seal and more displacement. Subys use oil when they are pushed hard and are boosted more. When they get low on oil the rods spin.
There is alot of trueth spoken here. Very well said... However I am months away from 40 and I popped mine (faulty radiator core). I have TONS of power left on tap just with adjusting the throttle to open 100%. My original point is this. You do not need a "Hot Rod Suby" to compare apples to apples. A real "Hot Rod Suby" will produce 800+ horsepower and will cost the numbers that were eluded to in the beginning of the thread. I wanted to show everyone that you don't need to spend huge money to get huge results. I no way did I ever say my engine combo is a "hot rod suby" in fact, just the opposite. You are correct as to the term "hybrid" applying to my engine's setup and that is exactly what I have. I didn't want to use the hybrid term in the 914world forum because we all associate that with a teener w/o a Porsche engine, not with a STI engine with WRX goodies.
Reading what people say you will expierance with a hybrid setup is a good place to start, but not exactly the same as having one and driving it yourself. It does start to fall on it's face due to the smaller turbo, but you are shitting your pants bye then so it really doesn't matter. Once again, if you still want more, throw a STI turbo on it, still not enough? Aftermarket tunable ECU, now you have atleast 500 horspower. I will be happy to let you drive my car and if it is not enough for you AS IS with 50% throttle opening then I digress. The last guys I took for a spin build 800 plus horsepower Subies that are all over the tuner rags and they were/are in disbelief what my little teener is doing now with only slightly over half throttle... You drive it, you be the judge.
Posted by: r_towle Mar 3 2009, 04:11 PM
please explain a few things.
$1850 buy a short block or a long block?
Rephrase...does the item you get from subaru have heads, timing belts etc all installed? A pic might help on this answer.
So you get this motor.
You dont need to use subaru intake and FI, do you?
You still need headers, so where do you get those? are those new custom anyways, or are they a modification to the originals?
Hanging the motor cant be all that hard..its a retrofit bar of some sort.
Tranny can still be a 914 tranny.
Radiator seems to have been over thought by many companies...so there are many solutions.
Is it possible, or has anyone done it, to put a custom FI or webers on a subaru? Forget all the subaru ECU stuff.
Rich
Posted by: brant Mar 3 2009, 04:25 PM
It always comes down to priorities.
try going vintage racing with a suby...
always a matter of priorities
Attached image(s)
Posted by: DBCooper Mar 3 2009, 05:25 PM
please explain a few things.
$1850 buy a short block or a long block?
Short block. No heads, intake or exhaust.
Rephrase...does the item you get from subaru have heads, timing belts etc all installed? A pic might help on this answer.
No, it was a short block, so just the assembled block, crank and pistons. He already had a 2.0 liter WRX motor, so he bought a 2.5 short block and installed everything, heads, manifolds, electronics, belts, etc from the 2.0 onto the 2.5 short block, making his "hybrid" motor.
So you get this motor.
You dont need to use subaru intake and FI, do you?
You still need headers, so where do you get those? are those new custom anyways, or are they a modification to the originals?
I'm using a stock Subaru intake, throttle body, and injection, and I think WRX914 does the same. I control mine with a standalone aftermarket ECU, he uses a reprogrammed stock ECU. I use a stock STI exhaust to the turbo, then just an exhaust pipe back over the axle to a Dynaflow muffler in the stock muffler location. I think his is similar but I don't remember the details.
Is it possible, or has anyone done it, to put a custom FI or webers on a subaru? Forget all the subaru ECU stuff.
Yes, I think I read that someone actually put Webers onto a Subaru flat four. I think someone also put on ITB's too, but I honestly can't imagine why, unless it was just to be different. The stock motor, with very few tweaks, gives you all you need. I kind of like not having to mess with it, just getting in and going.
Posted by: DBCooper Mar 3 2009, 05:29 PM
It always comes down to priorities.
try going vintage racing with a suby...
always a matter of priorities
Yeah, I have no intention of every going vintage tracing. Way too serious. I prefer just having fun with my car, and for me more horsepower means more fun. And it turns out that lots more horsepower is a lot more fun.
Posted by: charliew Mar 3 2009, 10:15 PM
I have seen a custom itb setup on a suby but it was also a turbo. The 02 up wrx and sti uses a tumble generator valve that looks sorta like a itb but it's a butterfly valve that is controled by the ecu with motors and feedback to increase the velocity in the intake path at low rpm. The tgv is one of the first things that everyone guts to give more flow. They remove the butterflies and shaft and weld up the holes. The tgv is only on us domestic market motors. The jdm stuff just uses a solid casting intake that doesn't have the tgvs. The tgvs set on the heads before the intake. The uneducated would think they were looking at itbs if the upper intake manifold is off.
One other nasioc technique is to use a late 2.5 na intake as it has a bigger plenum to hold more reserve pressure to help on the top end performance.
It really takes about 10k on top of the 2000.00 to 3000.00 shortblock with forged internals (a sti stock shortblock has cast pistons good for about 20 psi until you get bad gas) to make 500 awd hp on a usually overbored 2.5 suby.
cams 1000.00 4 of course
heads with bigger valves and ported 3000.00 maybe including cams for the non cosworth variety
1500.00 standalone ecu, usually speed density no maf just 3 bar map
bigger injectors 850.00
bigger fuel supply 300.00
water/ alcohol injection 800.00
good header, uppipe, down pipe, wastegate, 3 or 4 inch exhaust at least 1000.00 less on the 914 ebay headers are about 240.00
good clutch, flywheel 600.00
bigger oil pan for reliability 400.00 to 600.00
bigger turbo to provide about 30 psi 3500.00
There is no way without juice you can make 500 awd hp with the sti turbo and some magic tuning and if somehow you did it would be so on the edge the first bad gas you bought would do the stock cast pistons in.
Really though as wrx914 said a good 300 hp that doesn't need to be worked on once a month is all most people need to have lots of fun. UNTIL the zo6 comes up in the rearview mirror, then you remember back when it was a type 4. Beep Beep
Posted by: WRX914 Mar 5 2009, 04:20 PM
I stand corrected... Charlie is correct. I called the guys at Snail and he told me more like 300ish. With my setup and a STI turbo.
He did however say it would feel like 500hp!
Posted by: fiid Mar 5 2009, 04:34 PM
Is it possible, or has anyone done it, to put a custom FI or webers on a subaru? Forget all the subaru ECU stuff.
Rich
I'm running mine with a ~$200 Megasquirt II with a 1991-ish Ford EDIS wasted spark ignition system.
Posted by: SnailPerformance Mar 5 2009, 05:07 PM
Forgot to mention....
Because the engine completely dressed can be lifted by two normal sized guys, it makes the "heavy work" much easier. We did my engine swap in my garage, two guys, two jackstands, a floor jack and a Girl Scouts 4-wheel dolly with zero problems.
Oh one other thing...no need for race gas either.
Thanks for all the nice things you have to say about us..
now..creating big numbers is fairly easy with our subbie motors. but for u 914 guys. clearance is a big issue, so for large garret 30r or bigger turbos. but why have all that anyways. after ridding in Keith cars and logging that man we realized that his throttel was only opening up 48% of the way. and his car was quick..had alota fun. and he is on a stock 2.0l tdo4 turbo..in our subie world we throw those suckers away asap.
now if you were to put an sti motor in there with a good bolt on turbo like the forced performance GREEN ( witch is on my car now making close to 400awhp and trq) and put it in a 914 your talking about seriouse power in that little car *cough go cart on steroids...cough* i dont think it would hook up....please feel free to email me or pm whatever if u have any more questions...or need a build
Posted by: SnailPerformance Mar 5 2009, 05:17 PM
I have seen a custom itb setup on a suby but it was also a turbo. The 02 up wrx and sti uses a tumble generator valve that looks sorta like a itb but it's a butterfly valve that is controled by the ecu with motors and feedback to increase the velocity in the intake path at low rpm. The tgv is one of the first things that everyone guts to give more flow. They remove the butterflies and shaft and weld up the holes. The tgv is only on us domestic market motors. The jdm stuff just uses a solid casting intake that doesn't have the tgvs. The tgvs set on the heads before the intake. The uneducated would think they were looking at itbs if the upper intake manifold is off.
One other nasioc technique is to use a late 2.5 na intake as it has a bigger plenum to hold more reserve pressure to help on the top end performance.
It really takes about 10k on top of the 2000.00 to 3000.00 shortblock with forged internals (a sti stock shortblock has cast pistons good for about 20 psi until you get bad gas) to make 500 awd hp on a usually overbored 2.5 suby.
cams 1000.00 4 of course
heads with bigger valves and ported 3000.00 maybe including cams for the non cosworth variety
1500.00 standalone ecu, usually speed density no maf just 3 bar map
bigger injectors 850.00
bigger fuel supply 300.00
water/ alcohol injection 800.00
good header, uppipe, down pipe, wastegate, 3 or 4 inch exhaust at least 1000.00 less on the 914 ebay headers are about 240.00
good clutch, flywheel 600.00
bigger oil pan for reliability 400.00 to 600.00
bigger turbo to provide about 30 psi 3500.00
There is no way without juice you can make 500 awd hp with the sti turbo and some magic tuning and if somehow you did it would be so on the edge the first bad gas you bought would do the stock cast pistons in.
Really though as wrx914 said a good 300 hp that doesn't need to be worked on once a month is all most people need to have lots of fun. UNTIL the zo6 comes up in the rearview mirror, then you remember back when it was a type 4. Beep Beep
i would just like to correct you on a few things..i know a few people using stock vf39 turbos (04 05 06 sti turbos) making 500awhp. by welding the wastagte shut and running over 30 psi, do i recomend it..no.. but u can build a sti motor on a budjet and still make big numbers, we do it all the time.. buy and sti motor good forged internals (cp pistons 500$) leave the stock header and up pipe alone ( as long as its not a 2.0l up pipe, there catted) the stock manifold make good bottom end and we leave them alone.. plus u wana keep the subbie sound..
like i said im on a conservative street tune 18psi with an sti motor jdm vr7 heads fp green turbo and 850cc injectors and i make close to 400awhp... its not hard to make big numbers u just need to know what parts to buy to do it. yes u can spend 20k plus on these and we have on our race cars but for our street its diffrent...
oh and for the zo6 lover...ill line up againt a new zo6 and show him really what a little four banger can do...
mid 11s on pump in the qt mile..
Posted by: DBCooper Mar 5 2009, 05:21 PM
Really though as wrx914 said a good 300 hp that doesn't need to be worked on once a month is all most people need to have lots of fun. UNTIL the zo6 comes up in the rearview mirror, then you remember back when it was a type 4. Beep Beep
Beep beep my ass.
I just can't see it, so I may have to be taught this one the hard way.
Actually the stock STI motors are 300hp, and it should do 5-10 percent better with a freed up intake, no cats and a dyno tune. But even at only 300hp that's what? 7lbs per hp? Not so bad. Stock motor, so oil changes at 7500 miles, spark plugs at 30,000, cam belt at 105,000, just like your family car.
So what's that Z06's lbs/hp ratio, anyway?
Found it, the 2008 Z06 is 6.3 lbs/hp. He'd have a small power advantage, but same ballpark. So no beep beep, especially on curvy roads.
Posted by: charliew Mar 8 2009, 10:53 AM
DB think about this, you are running about 80 on 35 north no traffic, it's about 5am on sunday morning, you are daydreaming when in your mirror a black 08 zo6 comes up really fast. You say ok and go down to 5th, by that time he is about 4 car lengths ahead, you will never pull even with him I promise unless you got more hp than him and thats about 505. There's a real good chance thats underrated also. Subys are awhp not rwhp and 100 the vette is applying more hp to the pavement or less parasitic hp loss, also he's more aerodynamic. He may even weigh less.
A vf 39 is making a lot of unnecessary excess heat when it's making at or above 18 psi. As I said it's so close to the ragged edge you need to be a scientist to keep it alive on the street we were talking about 500 hp I think not 400, there is a lot of difference in cost.
Another nice very expensive suby, 8800 rpm, [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTEZAINx9fw]
I'm really not sure what the top speed of a 914 is thats on record. I don't know if I would ever have the guts to try a 400hp 914 out the top.
Also most suby that are pushed hard will get about 3qts of oil added before they get to 7500 miles. They use oil and if not checked very regularly they will get low enough to spin bearings. Spark plugs will go way past 30k but the belt is scary if you are using high rpm valve springs and higher lift cams. The last thing you want is a broke belt.
Wittmer 25 is my son on nasioc he has a 04 sti with a built motor with a 30r turbo, 26 psi. The only thing we didn't do to his ported big cam heads was go to larger valves as he wanted to keep some low end torque for the street. 100mm bore forged pistons. He hasn't installed the water-meth yet. He got a new girlfriend. He runs a safe conservative street tune. A 400 hp zo6 is a good match, also the gto's and the caddys but the 505 zo6 is a different horse on the hwy believe me. In the suby a few runs at prairie hill produced low 12's on conservative 1.8- 2.0 launches as I remember.
At the drags or a little foolishness on the street maybe. Subys are neat cars but they are out of their element at 150 and above in my opinion.
Posted by: DBCooper Mar 8 2009, 03:28 PM
Shift "down" to fifth? The STI engine I was talking about is in a 914, so no sixth gear and no "parasitic" awd power loss either. Excepting the aerodynamics the 914/STI would keep up just fine since each car has about 7 lbs/hp, but why on earth would I want to try him on at top speed, anyway? On I-35? In a 914? Wouldn't happen. My fun is more like Hwy 49 between Mariposa and Coulterville, where there isn't a straight more than a quarter mile long. I'm sure as hell not hearing a beep beep from any Corvette on that road.
Any kind of engine running high levels of boost will consume oil, and any OHC engine needs the belts, chains maintained. Nothing special about the Subaru in that respect, one way or the other, and at 100K miles it still beats adjusting valives. From the build quality it sounds like your son knows what he's doing, but every hot rod turbo motor I've ever been around has tempted the owner to turn up the boost until something eventually popped. But since the first post my point has been that when it's in a 914 you don't even have to hot-rod a Subaru engine to have the same lbs/hp as you get in that monster Z06. You can do that with a bone-stock STI motor and have all the fun you want. Except, as you correctly point out, at top speeds on public highways.
Posted by: WRX914 Mar 9 2009, 01:52 PM
Last year I ran a hopped up Camaro SS that sounded like it should be on the drag strip on the highway at highway speeds with my old 2 liter. he shit his pants that I not only stayed with him from 60 to 120, but I slightly pulled him. He followed my off the highway pulled into a parking lot and gave me a high five "that car hauls ass" I believe was his direct quote...
If he thought the old engine was fast, he won't know what to think now!
I am not saying I will beat em all, but I certainly won't back down and would gladly run any teener on the street. Porsche sixes don't intimidate me at all (there are a few sick ones that would probably give me the smack down) I regularily pick on 996's and 993's and without fail, They all can't handle the fact that a 914 just gave em a spanking!!!
Posted by: SnailPerformance Mar 9 2009, 10:41 PM
ill run just about anything in my car.. 505 z06 sure.. will i win? depends if they can drive or not. as for older z06s.. all day baby.. im proud to say my roommate has a gsxr 1000 and i hang with him all the way to 150mph...subarus are fast when tampered with.. we loose almost 35% of our power thru our awd drive train.. so take my 400awhp daily driver ( on 18psi) add 35% and put it in ur guys 914...ull shit...i know i would..
Posted by: charliew Mar 11 2009, 01:32 PM
I don't know what year gsx-r1000 you are playing with but the recent ones have about 156 hp and weigh about 470 lbs. You do the math. 650/150=4.3
Posted by: biosurfer1 Mar 11 2009, 01:59 PM
Next time I'm in Vegas, I'm going to need a ride in this thing!:)
Posted by: DBCooper Mar 11 2009, 06:20 PM
No, it's not a Gixxer, but you and a friend can drive it in the rain and stay dry, and 7 lbs per hp with a stock motor isn't that bad. For comparison with a 2100 lb 914 and a stock 100hp engine (being generous) you have 21 lbs/hp. The big step to a 190 hp Raby 2270 (for $12000) gets you up to 11 lbs/hp. A stock 3.2 six will have 210 hp, another step up to 10 hp/lb, but is also a good bit heavier.
You do have to drive it to understand, it's silly fun. It's not the brutality of a V8, but you have more than enough power and keep the lightness and agility that makes the 914 so cool. It doesn't look any different, but it's just plain wicked to drive.
Posted by: charliew Mar 14 2009, 12:44 PM
I have seen a custom itb setup on a suby but it was also a turbo. The 02 up wrx and sti uses a tumble generator valve that looks sorta like a itb but it's a butterfly valve that is controled by the ecu with motors and feedback to increase the velocity in the intake path at low rpm. The tgv is one of the first things that everyone guts to give more flow. They remove the butterflies and shaft and weld up the holes. The tgv is only on us domestic market motors. The jdm stuff just uses a solid casting intake that doesn't have the tgvs. The tgvs set on the heads before the intake. The uneducated would think they were looking at itbs if the upper intake manifold is off.
One other nasioc technique is to use a late 2.5 na intake as it has a bigger plenum to hold more reserve pressure to help on the top end performance.
It really takes about 10k on top of the 2000.00 to 3000.00 shortblock with forged internals (a sti stock shortblock has cast pistons good for about 20 psi until you get bad gas) to make 500 awd hp on a usually overbored 2.5 suby.
cams 1000.00 4 of course
heads with bigger valves and ported 3000.00 maybe including cams for the non cosworth variety
1500.00 standalone ecu, usually speed density no maf just 3 bar map
bigger injectors 850.00
bigger fuel supply 300.00
water/ alcohol injection 800.00
good header, uppipe, down pipe, wastegate, 3 or 4 inch exhaust at least 1000.00 less on the 914 ebay headers are about 240.00
good clutch, flywheel 600.00
bigger oil pan for reliability 400.00 to 600.00
bigger turbo to provide about 30 psi 3500.00
There is no way without juice you can make 500 awd hp with the sti turbo and some magic tuning and if somehow you did it would be so on the edge the first bad gas you bought would do the stock cast pistons in.
Really though as wrx914 said a good 300 hp that doesn't need to be worked on once a month is all most people need to have lots of fun. UNTIL the zo6 comes up in the rearview mirror, then you remember back when it was a type 4. Beep Beep
i would just like to correct you on a few things..i know a few people using stock vf39 turbos (04 05 06 sti turbos) making 500awhp. by welding the wastagte shut and running over 30 psi, do i recomend it..no.. but u can build a sti motor on a budjet and still make big numbers, we do it all the time.. buy and sti motor good forged internals (cp pistons 500$) leave the stock header and up pipe alone ( as long as its not a 2.0l up pipe, there catted) the stock manifold make good bottom end and we leave them alone.. plus u wana keep the subbie sound..
like i said im on a conservative street tune 18psi with an sti motor jdm vr7 heads fp green turbo and 850cc injectors and i make close to 400awhp... its not hard to make big numbers u just need to know what parts to buy to do it. yes u can spend 20k plus on these and we have on our race cars but for our street its diffrent...
oh and for the zo6 lover...ill line up againt a new zo6 and show him really what a little four banger can do...
mid 11s on pump in the qt mile..
I found this on nasioc as to a vf39. Don't get me wrong I like subys, vws, porsche 914s all of it but the power some are stating is a little off. if you are real interested in suby power be realistic on the expectations. 21 psi not a welded waste gate though but most of the normal stuff. http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1719851 Also be sure to know whether it's 91, 93 or e85 gas
Unless my son upgrades his 30r the vf 39 is what I have to use and a 2.5 with wrx ported heads and sti cams and romraider software but speed density for a more simpler tune. That will be enough for me but about 320 at the wheels is a hopeful endeavor on pump gas. It will have a suby 5 spd but closer ratio gears and a lsd.
Posted by: DBCooper Mar 16 2009, 06:24 AM
i would just like to correct you on a few things..i know a few people using stock vf39 turbos (04 05 06 sti turbos) making 500awhp. by welding the wastagte shut and running over 30 psi, do i recomend it..no.. but u can build a sti motor on a budjet and still make big numbers, we do it all the time.. buy and sti motor good forged internals (cp pistons 500$) leave the stock header and up pipe alone ( as long as its not a 2.0l up pipe, there catted) the stock manifold make good bottom end and we leave them alone.. plus u wana keep the subbie sound..
like i said im on a conservative street tune 18psi with an sti motor jdm vr7 heads fp green turbo and 850cc injectors and i make close to 400awhp... its not hard to make big numbers u just need to know what parts to buy to do it. yes u can spend 20k plus on these and we have on our race cars but for our street its diffrent...
oh and for the zo6 lover...ill line up againt a new zo6 and show him really what a little four banger can do...
mid 11s on pump in the qt mile..
I found this on nasioc as to a vf39. Don't get me wrong I like subys, vws, porsche 914s all of it but the power some are stating is a little off. if you are real interested in suby power be realistic on the expectations. 21 psi not a welded waste gate though but most of the normal stuff. http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1719851 Also be sure to know whether it's 91, 93 or e85 gas
Unless my son upgrades his 30r the vf 39 is what I have to use and a 2.5 with wrx ported heads and sti cams and romraider software but speed density for a more simpler tune. That will be enough for me but about 320 at the wheels is a hopeful endeavor on pump gas. It will have a suby 5 spd but closer ratio gears and a lsd.
Charlie, let's get back on track here. First thing, Travis at Snailperformance (http://www.snailperformance.com) is a Subaru tuner (he's 'treefrogaz' on the NASIOC forums), so I think he's qualified to speak. No one's suggesting that anyone weld up their wastegate, the only point of mentioning that was that it's possible to do big horsepower very cheaply. If only temporarily. But for well-built motors here's a dyno graph that Travis did for a 30r turbo engine done right, seemingly similar to your son's but a lot less expensive: http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1636435. That's 365whp, which is coming up onto 500bhp, and I think that qualifies as a "hot rod" motor. And more, even that 313awd horsepower you linked in your last post is over 400bhp, with relatively low-cost upgrades.
But let's get back to the original subject. Your initial post was to the effect that hot rod Subaru engines cost as much as comparable Porsche engines, giving me the hunch that you're going to be surprised to find out what those Porsches cost. But to answer the question we need to get the costs to compare. Would an aircooled 300bhp Porsche motor be considered a "hot rod"? For anything less than a late 3.6 I think so, but we really need to know how much say 300, 400 and 600bhp aircooled Porsche engines would cost, maybe 3.0, 3.2, and 3.6's, complete with flywheel, clutch, induction and exhaust. Costs for both low mileage used and for new. Can anyone help out here?
And to clarify, where did you get that $15-20K price for the 600bhp Cosworth/Subaru motor you linked in your first post?
Posted by: charliew Mar 16 2009, 10:53 AM
Only thing I found on a nasioc search on treefrogaz was a few classified sales threads or comments.
This could go on forever it seems, this is just one I just went to nasioc and picked out. Spend some time on nasioc and you will find reliability is not cheap when you go over 400 awdhp. http://www.vividracing.com/catalog/cosworth-cs600x-long-block-assembly-81mm-stroke-subaru-wrx-sti-ej25-us-euro-spec-07-p-53594.html
http://www.cosworthusa.com/ 16,375.00 not counting intake or exhaust or computer controls, water injection, fuel delivery front mount ic, clutch and flywheel, better oil system, etc.
http://www.slowboyracing.com I thought they made complete motors but maybe not.
http://www.Goodspeedperformance.com
Cosworth is just one of several engine builders but they have a well respected history and won't sell cheap stuff or cheap promises.
Part of the 35% power loss at the wheels is the tire patch of 4 9 inch wide tires. That also gives much better traction in the imprezza. That will never be there in the 914
The sti is 300hp at the crank. It's about 260 awdhp stock.
Last one cossie motor suby everything listed it's a long thread skip to the bottom, it's a evolution of his cars: http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1545763
Posted by: grantsfo Mar 16 2009, 11:23 AM
It always comes down to priorities.
try going vintage racing with a suby...
always a matter of priorities
Much cheaper to just rent a vintage 914-6 racer.
http://www.vintageracingservices.com/rentals.html
Posted by: biosurfer1 Mar 16 2009, 12:31 PM
Holy moly....$2100/HOUR?!?!?
Posted by: grantsfo Mar 16 2009, 12:52 PM
Holy moly....$2100/HOUR?!?!?
Hey thats cheap! Ask Brant how much his car cost if he were to put $100 per hour labor charge on all his time he has invested in his vintage racer plus his new engine build plus all the parts he has had to buy, plus tires, tranny work etc. Then divide his total number of races into total $ invested in his vintage car to get cost per race. 1 hour of run time is pretty much a qualifying session and a full race. $2100 for a race day that includes tires, fuel, crew etc seems cheap to me!
Posted by: DBCooper Mar 17 2009, 06:25 AM
Only thing I found on a nasioc search on treefrogaz was a few classified sales threads or comments.
A "few"? Ten pages worth, and that's posts only. And if you've read more than a few of them I suppose you saw that he tunes Subaru's for a living? Visited the Snailperformance website? The only point is that he's for real, is not just some NASIOC kid trying to talk big because he has a Subaru in the garage.
It's interesting to see different Subaru builds, but your original post was about how hot rod Subaru builds could be as expensive as Porsche. I just don't see that. You know Subaru's, so I think you need to get more familiar with the Porsche side of the equation. For example on the first page of this thread Brett, a thoroughly credible guy in my book, mentioned $30,000 for a 250hp Porsche flat six. That seems like it might be a tad high, but for comparison, how much did you say it cost your son to get 400 wheel (not brake) horsepower?
My point is that once you look into it I think you'll be staggered by what it costs to get similar (not even the same) horsepower from an aircooled six. I love the look and sound of a six, but at Porsche prices I've learned to love the look and sound of the Subaru even more.
Posted by: charliew Mar 17 2009, 10:25 AM
I also love the sound of a flat six at 7500 but I agree that I don't know about 30k porsches as I never had a desire to invest that much money in any motor. I like the suby's as long as the real potential is realized. the suby platform will never compete with a inline in cost versus performance because of it's design but it's a great motor.
I'm not sure who you are refering to about the kid as I built my first hot rod in 1960 and my son is 27 and a me with about 15 years hot rodding experience.
I also like to do it all myself and as everyone knows you can spend an equal amount on labor when you pay someone else to do your work but sometimes that might be the best way.
Posted by: DBCooper Mar 17 2009, 01:37 PM
No, Charlie, wasn't referring to you, it was Travis. He's legit so I didn't want you to dismiss him as some big-hat-no-cattle NASIOC kid.
Funny, my first car was a 1960 VW, 36hp. I tried to make it into a hot rod, but it just wouldn't cooperate.
Posted by: charliew Mar 17 2009, 02:19 PM
My third, a 58 vw, was a college car to replace the 46 chevy with a 261, a 6, bored to 270 with a paxton off a stude or tbird, it had a 2bbl in a airbox, and a nice muncie 4 spd, electric cad windows and 63 super sport seats. 3:90 merc rear end, it would scratch rubber in all 4 gears. Straight sixes also sound good with fenton headers.
The bug later got a hyd. lifter isky cam and a new 1500. about 68 when I got married and started a family. It wasn't fast but it would go about 95 with the ac on. Oh yeah it's a sedan made into a pickup with a dodge pickup cab rear panel and window. I think it may also get a mid suby one day.
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