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914World.com _ 914World Garage _ V6 is in!!!!

Posted by: SteveSr Feb 25 2004, 05:59 AM

WOO HOO!!................here it is...............

Steve

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Posted by: itsa914 Feb 25 2004, 08:39 AM

Kool Steve, can't wait to see the complete car!

- Garold

Posted by: seanery Feb 25 2004, 08:40 AM

is that the throttle body on the back of the motor?

Posted by: thesey914 Feb 25 2004, 08:42 AM

Which V6 is it? How much HP etc..?

Posted by: SteveSr Feb 25 2004, 09:03 AM

It's a GM 60degree V6,3.1 ltr.stock 140 HP.
After I swap on the top end from a 3.4........camshaft...headers... ect....ect...I hoping for 180 or so HP..............
Yes,thats the throttle body,the engine is out of a front wheel drive car.
Steve

Posted by: 3d914 Feb 25 2004, 02:06 PM

Steve,

Too cool! Nice fab work in trunk.

Was it necessary to slice up the trunk and the rear engine bay?

Are you building a racer or just street rod?

Posted by: fiid Feb 25 2004, 04:08 PM

QUOTE(SteveSr @ Feb 25 2004, 07:03 AM)

I think that's the same motor I had in my '92 V6 firebird. It was torquey as all get out. Loved that car - even though it was frowned upon by almost everyone I know.

Posted by: SteveSr Feb 26 2004, 06:22 AM

Probably wasn't necessary to cut the trunk up,but hey , easy access now to the exhaust and tranny.
For now it will be an autoxer and sunday fun car,but who knows? Could be a racer later.
I like this motor,my wife has a 94' Grandprix with the same engine in it and it flys!
Just think what it will do in the lighter 914!

Steve

Posted by: SteveSr Feb 26 2004, 09:39 AM

Anyone have any idea/opinion about what springs to use on this car?
I would like adjustable spring perches on the rear and coilovers on the front.
The engine weighs 85lbs. more than the stock 914 motor. The car has no front sway bar now,do I need one in the rear?
To answer Gerard's question further...the throttle body and water outlet were hitting the bulkhead between the trunk and the engine bay......

Steve

Posted by: Bleyseng Feb 26 2004, 09:44 AM

For AXing you don't need a rear bar.
Springs depend on what Tbars you have in front, forget the front coilovers for now. Get a balanced spring/Tbar setup with a front sway bar and Koni Yellows

Posted by: Mike T Feb 26 2004, 09:45 AM

What exhaust manifolds are you using? Headers? Stock?
I had a GM 60° (2.8 liter) in my 914 autocrosser for 6 years. (see my avatar) Made a nice power upgrade. I never found a set of headers that would fit without modification although S-10 4X4 from Cyclone came very close.

Mike T

Posted by: jhs914 Feb 26 2004, 10:55 AM

Steve,

I have a 2.8 V6 (1976 Mercury Capri II) installed by the PO. Mine has 140 lb. rear springs. Don't know the height of the springs or who sold them, but they are painted gold, if that means anything. The PO did this conversion back in 1980, so who knows where he got the springs.

The car sits level and has a firm, but not harsh ride. My engine has cast iron heads and it appears yours has aluminum, so I might be a little heavier. Like you, I do not have sway bars, but plan on adding a front bar.

Posted by: fiid Feb 26 2004, 11:28 AM

Hey,

I would definately look at a front sway bar. If you want the car to "turn" well for AX- some people add rear bars and leave them unhooked for everything except AX.

I have a 1.7 with 175 pound rear springs enad the eibach coilover kit. I also have 23mm torsion bars at the front and mueller's bearings all around, with Koni Sports. My car is a bit of a hard ride until you get it up to speed. My car is very smooth and handles pretty well at the track - I have not AXed yet with the new setup though.

If you want a streety handly thing with occasional AX I would think about 140s and maybe 19mm sways. Also - do think about going with the roller bearing setup.

Your mileage may vary.

Posted by: SteveSr Feb 26 2004, 12:00 PM

Ok,so 140# springs on Ground Control style rear shocks and a front sway (19MM) with yellow Koni's,so why not put coil overs on the front too? Easily adjustable ride height all around. they look easy enough build.................

Steve

Posted by: SteveSr Feb 26 2004, 12:03 PM

Like this......................

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Posted by: Mueller Feb 26 2004, 12:12 PM

QUOTE

they look easy enough build.................

see all that extra welding near the top of the strut assembly.???

.....it's not a bolt on upgrade unless you plan on having the sheetmetal tear it's way off of the car due to it not being designed for those type of loads........

Posted by: SteveSr Feb 26 2004, 02:41 PM

Ok,point well taken.Something I didn't even think about... BUT, not impossible right?
If I have to weld in stiffer metal,might as well add camber boxes

Steve

Posted by: SteveSr Feb 27 2004, 11:54 AM

After looking at my own post I see that this guy has converted to 5 bolt hubs in the front ,so maybe it would be good to hold off on the coil over coversion until I switch to 911 struts..................would be a waste to build coilovers on 4 bolt hubs...

Steve

Posted by: stock93 Feb 27 2004, 02:28 PM

Did you just put the kit together yourself for installing this engine? What made you decide to do this engine over a 350? Weight?
I've been looking at using the 3.1 in both my rail and possibly 914. Did you have any real problems that you wouldnt know about until you have actually done it that you could give me a heads up on?

Nice work. Driven it yet?

John

Posted by: SteveSr Feb 27 2004, 02:42 PM

John,

The engine adapter is from Kennedy Engineered Products in Pomona California,
they re-machined my stock 914 fly wheel and made the adapter plate.
It bolted together like it was made originally....no problems.The front engine mount I made using the stock 914 engine mount bar,The rear trans axle mounting is in the stock location.
I chose this engine because it is torquey, good smooth power,tons of room on either side of the engine for working on and yes, the weight.
I was even able to get the engine running using the factory fuel injection that was on the V6 when I got it.I had it hooked up to the 914 electric system and had it running on the engine stand next to the car last winter.
No, I haven't driven it yet but can't wait!

Steve

Posted by: davep Feb 27 2004, 08:05 PM

Say, is that the same engine thats in my 93 Cavalier? It is a 3.1 and it runs pretty good now, but has 305,000 km. The body is falling apart, but hey, it's a Chev.

Posted by: stock93 Feb 28 2004, 01:47 PM

Steve,
Thanks for answering my questions. Does the factory starter start it just fine? Does the engine clear the firewall without modification? What did you use up front for the radiator/shroud?

Keep us posted on how it drives. Any problems you run into would be good as well. I'm thinking about doing a conversion eventually and the 3.1 chevy is on of my favorite engines. I also wouldnt have to have a renegade kit. Might even run it turbocharged. They came turbo from the factory in the 89-91 Grand Prix GTP IIRC. I know another guy that is running one turbocharged on propane in his rail buggy.

John

Posted by: SteveSr Mar 1 2004, 09:49 AM

Yes,it is the same engine that is in the Cavalier and a whole bunch of other GM models.
I'm using a Mazda RX-7 radiator,I plan on mounting it laying down in the bottom of the trunk and exhausting the hot air out the bottom. Don't have it mounted yet.
I haven't used the Porsche starter yet to spin the engine,K.E.P. says unless the V6 will have a fresh re-build (which mine will) there isn't a problem,otherwise they suggest using Porsche's cold weather starter.We'll see.The altenator pulley hit the fire wall so I cut a hole for it.Keep in mind these are front drive engines,maybe a V6 from a Camero or S10 would have been a better choice.
The adapter plate and flywheel machining from K.E.P. was $455.00
I'm using the side shifter trans but you could use what ever you have........

Steve

Posted by: SteveSr Jan 4 2005, 11:45 AM

Here are some update pics of what I got done over the Christmas break......mostly engine teardown . I did start to re-inforce the inner longs too.....

SteveSr

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Posted by: SteveSr Jan 4 2005, 11:47 AM

another......

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Posted by: SteveSr Jan 4 2005, 11:49 AM

My 2000 Grand-am top end stuff.......

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Posted by: SteveSr Jan 4 2005, 11:51 AM

longs re-inforcement......not nearly as nice as Engman's but I had the material on hand......

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Posted by: trekkor Jan 4 2005, 12:02 PM

Good to see progress! You must be getting excited.

I say take two weeks off work and finish. IPB Image

KT

Posted by: SteveSr Feb 4 2005, 02:36 PM

Latest progress pics...........camber boxes are in

SteveSr

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Posted by: SteveSr Feb 4 2005, 02:38 PM

911 cross bar cleaned up...(thanks Andy)

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Posted by: SteveSr Feb 4 2005, 02:40 PM

hole in trunk for hot air exhaust.......

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Posted by: SteveSr Feb 4 2005, 02:42 PM

passenger compartment re-inforcement......

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Posted by: SteveSr Feb 4 2005, 02:44 PM

Volvo 240 caliper trial fit...............

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Posted by: Brett W Feb 4 2005, 03:50 PM

The 240 caliper will bolt on with out any work. It does however sit .050 off the centerline of the rotor. The 240 caliper will need an 11.75 rotor. I will let everyone know this weekend what I find, but I am pretty sure the system that I am looking at will bolt right on. This setup will allow you to bolt on a 11.75 x .810 rotor onto an aluminum floating hat. Should work great for you as well.

When Kennedy did your flywheel how did they do it? Machine the stock 914 center hub out and drill the chevy pattern around the stock flange? Got a picture of the flywheel?

Posted by: ws91420 Feb 4 2005, 04:04 PM

Congrats on putting a V-6 in. Just a word of caution the GM 3.1 and 3.4 tend to have a problem with intake gaskets. They will eventually leak internally and externally. Did alot of these at the dealership, but since you are going through the motor it shouldn't be a problem for quite a while.

Posted by: Mueller Feb 4 2005, 04:27 PM

QUOTE (Brett W @ Feb 4 2005, 02:50 PM)
The 240 caliper will bolt on with out any work. It does however sit .050 off the centerline of the rotor. The 240 caliper will need an 11.75 rotor. I will let everyone know this weekend what I find, but I am pretty sure the system that I am looking at will bolt right on. This setup will allow you to bolt on a 11.75 x .810 rotor onto an aluminum floating hat. Should work great for you as well.

When Kennedy did your flywheel how did they do it? Machine the stock 914 center hub out and drill the chevy pattern around the stock flange? Got a picture of the flywheel?

I've spoken to a few brake manufacture engineers and the overhang is no big deal as long as the pads never, ever wear down enough for the "overhang" portion to touch the opposing pad.

The Busch Grand National car that was in the Palo Alto shop for a while had like .125" over hang and was built by a top shop back East.....no problems the few times it was taken out on ThunderHill...

Is this brake package you are looking into for the rear as well?

Posted by: mattillac Feb 4 2005, 07:01 PM

what year 240 is that caliper off of?

Posted by: Mueller Feb 5 2005, 01:20 AM

QUOTE (SteveSr @ Feb 4 2005, 01:44 PM)
Volvo 240 caliper trial fit...............

darn, I just threw 2 of those calipers in the trash can last weekend, I could have made a couple bucks off of them

Posted by: Brett W Feb 5 2005, 02:03 AM

The setup I am checking out will have an aluminum hat with an 11.75 x .810 vented rotor. It will use the calipers from the mid 80s- mid 90s Volvo 190 and 240 for the vented cars. With our mounting flange the fronts will easily accept a the 11.75 rotor. No over hang either. It will also include a .250 spacer for the wheels.

Mike
I haven't decided if it is necessary for a street application but the four pot calipers would work on the rear as well. This top secret project I am working on right now would use them on the rear. Same rotor but different hat design.

Still have to figure out which master cylinders to run. I have a street car to test them on if John would get the motor back in the damn thing.

Posted by: SteveSr Feb 7 2005, 06:23 AM

Brett,

I can post a pic of the flywheel tomorrow,yes,they cut out the center welded in a new piece and re-machined it for the chevy.Actually they took a cut on the whole thing,it looks very nice. Then balanced it.
The caliper is a "87" Volvo 240,if you look at the pic again of the wheel you will see a ring on the inside where the caliper was rubbing.I will need to make a wheel spacer.

SteveSr

Posted by: skline Feb 7 2005, 06:37 AM

I ground the caliper down a little as the clearence wasnt that much. A wheel spacer probably would have been easier but I was anxious to get it going.

Posted by: Mike T Feb 7 2005, 08:32 PM

QUOTE (Brett W @ Feb 4 2005, 01:50 PM)

When Kennedy did your flywheel how did they do it? Machine the stock 914 center hub out and drill the chevy pattern around the stock flange? Got a picture of the flywheel?

Brett;

Here is a picture of a flywheel for a 2.8 V6. It's from the engine I had in my 1975 914 autocrosser for 6 years. The 2.8 was the first version of the 60° V6 that grew to the 3.1 and 3.4.

Mike T

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Posted by: Mike T Feb 7 2005, 08:38 PM

Here is the front.
The flywheel used a 200mm clutch, 2700LB, and Gold Disc.

KEP offers up to a 9" which I would recomend spending the extra $ for although I never had any slippage problems and my 2.8 was not stock.

Mike T

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Posted by: Brett W Feb 7 2005, 09:17 PM

Damn that is kinda scary looking. I am sure it works and Kennedy does great work, but I would be afraid of the weld breaking. I think I am going to do a mechanical connection on mine. I am trying to decide whether or not to run the standard 901 clutch or upgrade toa Tilton style 3 disk unit. Tilton sells a 'button" which I can adapt to the V8 flywheel and then I can use all Stock car parts. I am kinda on hold until I talk to the Tilton engineers to figure out how to get the clearnences measured for the throwout bearing, pressure plate, and adapterplate. Kennedy doesn't make the adapter plate or the flywheel, so I am kinda on my own for this one.

Thanks for the pics though. That gives me an idea for how they do it.

Posted by: Mueller Feb 7 2005, 09:35 PM

QUOTE (Brett W @ Feb 5 2005, 01:03 AM)
The setup I am checking out will have an aluminum hat with an 11.75 x .810 vented rotor. It will use the calipers from the mid 80s- mid 90s Volvo 190 and 240 for the vented cars. With our mounting flange the fronts will easily accept a the 11.75 rotor. No over hang either. It will also include a .250 spacer for the wheels.

Mike
I haven't decided if it is necessary for a street application but the four pot calipers would work on the rear as well. This top secret project I am working on right now would use them on the rear. Same rotor but different hat design.

Still have to figure out which master cylinders to run. I have a street car to test them on if John would get the motor back in the damn thing.

Brett,
I might be interested in hat/rotor....those Volvo calipers weigh too much for me....I picked up a set of aluminum AP 4-pot calipers...hope to get them this week and then I get to see how much fabrication to get them on the car

Mike...that little V6 is going to be fun...I've always felt a V6 is a better choice than an V8 for our cars....

Posted by: Brett W Feb 7 2005, 09:48 PM

Sorr I forgot to post about that. The rotor and hat work well. I had to turn down the diameter of the hub centric ring (I am not using hub centric wheels) to make the hat fit over it. I could have machined the hat but incase it wasn't right I didn't want to mess up my refund. Anyway, the Volvo calipers will require a little bit of machining to the inside of the mounting flange. The caliper sits too far in. I think .050 should work. I may have a set of early struts I can test with as well. The volvo calipers from the vented rotor cars will easily handle the .810 vented rotor.

I will try an post some pics this weekend. This should put an end to unreplaceable rotors and fixed hubs. I figure a 23mm master cylinder from a 930 should work or the Mercedes master cylinder. Since I am running dual masters my options will be different.

I also grabbed a coilover sleeve that looks like it will work as well so I will be going to a coil over setup.

The Volvo calipers are indeed heavy, but they are very cheap and very reliable for the street. I can pick up the calipers for 26 a pair if not for free. I think you can use 930 pads in them if you redrill the caliper to take the same mounting pin.