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Posted by: McMark Apr 18 2009, 09:00 AM

Rob just called me. Engine let go this morning in Stockton, on the way to the autocross.



Sounds like a piston skirt broke off and trapped itself between the crank and case, and then blew its way out.

Now he's got to wait for a tow truck. Ooooooh man. Poor Rob.

I'm sure he'll have some pictures (with garbage cans) when he get's it back to his place.

Posted by: MDG Apr 18 2009, 09:29 AM

Uh-oh

Hope it's not all bad.

Posted by: rick 918-S Apr 18 2009, 09:30 AM

I hate when that happens. Hope he can get it fixed brfore the WCR.

Posted by: Cap'n Krusty Apr 18 2009, 09:42 AM

If the case is ventilated, it IS all bad. The Cap'n

Posted by: MDG Apr 18 2009, 09:54 AM

Yes Cap'n, I agree. I just thought that would sound better than, "Wow, Rob's Fuched . . . "

Posted by: craig downs Apr 18 2009, 10:53 AM

Yikes sorry to hear about it.

Posted by: J P Stein Apr 18 2009, 10:56 AM

I haven't "lost" an engine in 40 years (knock wood)......and the thought of that still hurts.
Onwards......

Posted by: Chris Hamilton Apr 18 2009, 11:14 AM

His sig says he has a "2270". Is that an engine with 96mm cylinders bored out from 94mm?

Posted by: McMark Apr 18 2009, 01:37 PM

New AA (not AutoAtlanta) pistons & cylinders.

Posted by: sixnotfour Apr 18 2009, 01:45 PM

You really wont know untill its apart. I saw one exit onto the road before my very eyes, on a friends 914, Turned out there was a nut bouncing around in the combustion chamber that caused the piston to fracture.

Sad news Rob.

Posted by: Chris Hamilton Apr 18 2009, 01:56 PM

So thats a 96mm cylinder with 1mm thinner cylinder walls than the 94mm ones?

Posted by: Cap'n Krusty Apr 18 2009, 03:06 PM

Lotsa causes. Rod bolt failure, valve breaking off, swallowing a nut, bolt, or carb part, dropped valve seat, rod breaking (pretty rare, I think, on a T4) All bad news, all terminal, for the most part. The Cap'n

Posted by: ConeDodger Apr 18 2009, 03:44 PM

There isn't anything terminal. They are all just parts... I have at least two other cases to build from. Stimulates the economy too.

No warning. Guages all looked fine. Temp about midway on the stock appearance group guage, CHT 200+. Long sweeping right hander then in the middle of it a loud band followed by white oil smoke and oil spray. Engine runs but as you might imagine with the ventilation it is loud.

Flat towed it 58 miles home by USAA. Yopu came and picked me up and we went to the autocross 8 blocks from where the engine blew.

I got home, moved it into position to jack it up and drop the motor. I will probably do the post-mortem at McMarks so I will drop the motor at my place and drive it down to his place. I was just disgusted enough that I did a brake job on the Carrera instead of starting to drop the motor.

No pics yet but I can tell you the case has a large hole at the #3 position and the serrated oil ring and scraper is outside the case sitting on top of the tin.

Short of putting one of the other motors in the car it will be the Carrera for the WCR if at all... Besides, that Boy Band kind of freaks me out

McMark was the first person I called after calling USAA Roadside Assistance. Yopu was second. She wants to know if I will be going to Mark's house to build the new engine because she enjoyed the trips down and the burgers at Red Rock Cafe...

Posted by: ConeDodger Apr 18 2009, 04:14 PM

Because I know you guys love carnage...

Purposely took a close-up to avoid garbage can abuse from the AHA!!!


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Posted by: MDG Apr 18 2009, 04:38 PM

Hicheemama, Rob! You can actually see the little wheel the gerbil runs on

really sorry for this . . . good luck with the build.

m.

Posted by: r_towle Apr 18 2009, 04:43 PM

Rod break? Rod bolt fall out?
What rods are those?
Rich

Posted by: biosurfer1 Apr 18 2009, 04:59 PM

2316?


Sorry to hear about this Rob...if you need any help with anything, let me know!

Posted by: DNHunt Apr 18 2009, 05:04 PM

Rob

I'm sorry to see that. Wish I could offer you advice. The only thing I can say is the sick feeling in your stomach doesn't last too long. I've got a case sitting in my garage all prepped for 98's and above, standard bearings, galley plugs drilled and tapped. I could send it your way. Old smokie is sitting in the woodshed and runs.

Dave

Posted by: hydroliftin Apr 18 2009, 05:25 PM

Wow Rob,

Sorry to hear about this. That engine was so nice.

Posted by: PRS914-6 Apr 18 2009, 05:29 PM

Yikes! Sorry Rob, that hurts. But there is a good side.....Your wife loved the 3.6 ride and now would be an awesome excuse to install one. I'll even give you a hand....

Posted by: ConeDodger Apr 18 2009, 05:32 PM

There actually wasn't any sick feeling. When you take on something like this, that is - building a kit, you are the one responsible for success or failure. Jake has put hundreds of these together and they last years and look new inside when the come apart. This has got to be 'the builders fault.'

I have never had a problem taking personal responsibility. Having said that, I just want to say - I blame Mark

The next build will be bigger - badder and more fun to drive... Stay tuned!

Posted by: Jake Raby Apr 18 2009, 06:24 PM

Son of a bitch!

There goes our 5 year run without any catastrophic failures from the kit program (perforated cases).

I appreciate Rob being so easy to work with when the shit hit the fan... And this wasn't anyone's fault- the engine has too many miles on it with too many floggings under it's belt to have experienced any human error... Human error usually creates issues that happen very early on with these engines, usually less than 100 miles... When I have made mistakes in the past, or done wild shit that was risky things always failed well within the first 1K miles.

Looks like something just plain snapped or there was an oil starvation issue...

The failure doesn't look like a piston failure from that pic.. I think I spy a smoked #1 rod journal in the case and #3 looks to be intact... I could be wrong, the pic doesn't give much detail..

The good news is I have tons of good used parts from the era of this kit and we can probably get Rob back up and going for not much more than the cost of another case... Even if I don't have the parts used or from a test engine, the repair will still take more time than money.

Thanks for understanding, Rob... We supported you before, during and after the kit was completed and I'll stand by you while you pick up the pieces.

Welcome to my world, it sucks but more is learned from failure than success.. Stay positive. Stay motivated. A little good comes from everything bad.

Posted by: Elliot Cannon Apr 18 2009, 06:26 PM

Three point two time.

Posted by: URY914 Apr 18 2009, 07:40 PM

That is the kind of service you get from Jake.

Posted by: charliew Apr 19 2009, 01:34 PM

Looks like a loose rod cap to me.

Posted by: ottox914 Apr 19 2009, 04:45 PM

Way to go Rob- pop your motor and brake Jakes string...

Just kidding- My heart goes out to you and your case. I have to agree with Jake on this one- I have full confidence that you did a fine job on the initial build- any build issues should have been apparent long ago. When you get the tear down done, I"m sure you'll share pics and the CSI of it all, to investigate and determine the failure mode, so we all can learn a little more.

PS, thanks for the COTM nomination- I've had fun building it, had no idea so many others were enjoying it also. Maybe next time, after I get my world back under control and get Jake the rest of my parts, I can finish the budget-uber turbo motor, and we can have a run at it again with some real HP and maybe a little more bling...

Posted by: Jake Raby Apr 19 2009, 05:01 PM

Every time one breaks we learn from it and every time the one thats broken goes back together more advanced and more powerful...

Sometimes things breaking open up doors for further performance.....

Posted by: 6freak Apr 20 2009, 03:10 PM

At least its not your colon thats perforated someone needed to through some comedy in there....no really man that sucks

Posted by: MDG Apr 20 2009, 03:48 PM

that part of his anatomy is covered by a, um, HAT!



so have you started sorting the carnage yet? I stared at that pic you posted but it started making me feel a little sick so I had to look away.

Posted by: crash914 Apr 20 2009, 04:11 PM

Interesting place to break through the case...

roughly 90 degrees from the line of pressure...

build it bigger, build it stronger...

Posted by: rdauenhauer Apr 20 2009, 04:26 PM

That referance might not be recognized outside of the PNW

Posted by: DBCooper Apr 20 2009, 04:28 PM

Not an unusual vent hole. That's the nearest barrier to the exterior when a rod comes detatched from a piston, usually because the piston has been turned in to small chunks, in T4 motors typically by valve seat that's come unseated.

Nice bike in your sig, Herb. I just got back from an afternoon ride.

Posted by: crash914 Apr 20 2009, 05:34 PM

Thanks, daily driver, just turned 77K..

Posted by: Richard Casto Apr 20 2009, 07:19 PM

Sorry about your bad news.

The photo of the case reminds me of one of my earlier 914s. The case must have had a similar disaster prior to me buying the car (it was well worn by the time I bought it). They just welded the chunk back into place and rebuilt it!

Posted by: DBCooper Apr 20 2009, 08:39 PM

I've seen that before too, a repaired case. Nothing else damaged that I could find, just a rod that had punched a hole in the top of the case, so they'd heliarced it and were back in business. I don't remember what repair we did, but what we fixed wasn't related to that hole and it went back out that way too. That was probably thirty years ago in California, but who knows, maybe it was the same engine.

Posted by: 6freak Apr 21 2009, 10:44 AM

yah them Enumclaw cowboys are some sick f*#@`s at least there one less ,,,,,,I will tell Dodger about it at WCR09

Posted by: ConeDodger Jul 15 2009, 07:31 PM

We found the culprit.

Jake saw the pictures and knew right away that the engine had failed due to the number one piston exploding. The build was flawless and the engine had a textbook break-in and was performing great for more than a couple thousand miles. Nothing should have gone wrong. Jake said as soon as he saw the pile of piston parts that detonation was the cause. Everything else in the motor can be salvaged except the pistons and rods. The cam is not something you use again unless you live in a false economy... But what caused the detonation? The tune seemed perfect. The gauge numbers were fine. Hold the phone I think we found the culprit...

Yesterday I was working in the yard. Some of you have been here to the Conedodger Farm and seen the couple of acres I do battle with. I have a bunch of lawn equipment I use to keep the wilderness beaten back. I used a hand pump to drain the tank of fuel after the engine let go. Put it all into a 5 gallon race can. I have been dumping it into the lawn equipment and put most of it into the 4Runner. Yopu is so gentle on the 4Runner she didn't notice anything at all. Thank God I wasn't driving it with that fuel load because I spank 5 liter Mustangs regularly with that Supercharger! My tractor will not even run on this gas. My chipper started and ran for 2 minutes ingesting and spitting out two 1" branches before doing exactly the same thing the 2270 did. Sudden puff of white smoke followed by louder running and oil smell. Blew a hole in the side of it's little block. Needless to say, I have drained the gas out of all the lawn equipment.

Verdict: Detonation secondary to California pump gas.

So you guys who love to tank on Jake can settle down. This was not his fault...

A new engine case has been sent to Jake (thanks Dan Thompson). Rods are tweaked enough so they will go to Jake's trophy case (he loves breaking shit). The crank can probably be salvaged as there is only cosmetic damage on visual inspection. A set of 70K mile cylinders were sent to Jake. The only visual damage to the heads was in the number 1 CC and Len can make that right I suspect.

We should be back on the track as soon as Jake can get away from that watercooled crap that pays the bills at Aircooled Heaven...


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Posted by: porschecb Jul 15 2009, 08:36 PM

Gas!!!!!? Please tell me more. Something is missing.

Posted by: ericread Jul 15 2009, 08:42 PM

Posted by: J P Stein Jul 15 2009, 09:15 PM

Odd.
I've blown one motor in my life ....from lack of lubrication.....I was 19 years old and ignorant. I have worn out a couple. Never had bad gas in any car in my 45ish years of driving. Boy, am I lucky. I did it happen once in a 2 stroke chain saw tho. The mixed gas had been sitting around for 4-5 years.

Neither I nor anyone I have known personally has blown a motor from bad gas. I didn't know it was possible till I came to the 914 crowd bout 10-12 years back..... and the blowed motors are all T-4s. Golly, it's amazing what one can learn from these little cars.

Posted by: Smitty911 Jul 15 2009, 09:28 PM

California Gas = Detonation???????

Well aside from being just one more reason to leave this place. What kind of Gas and what state of Tune was the motor in?

I thought, and please correct me, that Detonation was due to timing or over compression with out the correct octane.

Sorry for your loss, but you seem to be on top of it. I could send you some JB Weld if it helps.

Posted by: Jake Raby Jul 15 2009, 09:35 PM

And the assholes that continually make smart assed comments concerning them. Want to learn about the Human Race?? Own a Business and do your best, be intense and take your work seriously... The assholes will always be there, trying to spit in your face and most of them are purely jealous and have never accomplished a damn thing themselves.

FWIW I have had several engines die from bad gas.. I once bought a tank full of gas for the dyno out of the same pump that I ALWAYS buy all the dyno gas from.. Got it back to the shop, filled the dyno tank and the EGT was uncontrollable immediately, which was odd because I had just been running the engine and ran out of gas.

Brent and I chased the issue for an hour, the EGT got so hot that it scorched a carbon fiber valve cover while we were trying to troubleshoot the issue.. Changed the fuel, problem solved.. Come to find out that some genius put the 87 octane in the 93 tank and vice versa, so I was trying to run a 10.5:1, 200 HP engine on 87 octane and didn't know it... Till we took a whiff of it (yes we are that damn good) and knew it wasn't right. That engine didn't see any damage because it was under telemetry and we saw every move it made..

It has happened to me with race engines and bad race gas as well... Bad gas can and will take out any aircooled engine if its not caught..

Why the hell do you think that airplanes have fuel samples pulled daily??? I have seen 60,000 gallons of JP-5 Jet Fuel test bad and it put our entire squadron on the deck of a carrier.. Those tests are done with a Mason jar and some sunlight..
I try my best to buy gas at the same station and same pump when possible... EVERY time you get a tank of fuel you are taking a chance that it's crappy.

Posted by: Smitty911 Jul 15 2009, 09:38 PM

Well the silly question is How do you know, or what can you do about the gas avalible?

Posted by: r_towle Jul 15 2009, 09:41 PM

If it is bad gas, why would just a single piston take all the damage?
This is not a bad comment, but a real question.

Could the differences in metallurgy affect one piston faster than another...or maybe some casting/forging issue with that piston versus the others?

I can hear detonation right away...but if it only happened in one piston, would it be possible to hear that?

Just seems odd to me that only one piston took all the damage...

Rich

Posted by: jmill Jul 15 2009, 09:54 PM

Bad gas won't have the correct octane. You can burn up a low compression engine running it. One cylinder could have failed first due to minor carb differences. If your slightly leaner on one cylinder it'll fail first. If it could still run the others would have failed shortly after.

Posted by: Jake Raby Jul 15 2009, 09:57 PM

That particular piston is in the cylinder that ALWAYS runs a higher EGT with the Tangerine header that was used.. That one cylinder might have had all the planets aligned for the failure, or that one piston was a tad weaker..

Some detonation is inaudible and there are instances where shit happens without any noise associated...

Mechanical things and failures don't have to make sense.. When I break shit the goal is to have it so destroyed that the pieces are too small to even identify...

Anyone who hasn't built an engine and have it explode simply hasn't built enough engines... Its part of our lives..

One of my Customers who is a Pediatric Cardio Thoracic Surgeon sent me the following when he broke his engine at a DE after it made 40HP more than we expected it to..

"It really is hell being at the mercy of OEM parts - in your case its PCNA, but I gotta tell you, I deal with OEM parts from a source that many/most people believe to be unimpeachable. Even God gets it wrong 2% of the time."

How much more real can it get?

Posted by: r_towle Jul 15 2009, 10:05 PM

Which cylinder was that...I did not go back to read every post...
And,
how much hotter does it typically run?

Rich

Posted by: ConeDodger Jul 15 2009, 10:09 PM

#1

Posted by: ghuff Jul 15 2009, 10:15 PM

Bad gas, we just had a round of it here due to a baltimore harbor storage tank leaking water in from heavy rain.

A lot of folks using oceanic gas popped motors.

I also had a bad fill of E85 one day when running E85 daily in my GTi. The care ran like garbage and missed a ton at startup. I kept it out of boost and at light enough throttle loads to when it warmed up it was limpable.

Knock sensors are awesome. Hopefully some new EFI solutions have them

Posted by: Jake Raby Jul 15 2009, 10:17 PM

The CYLINDER doesn't run hotter, the EGT does! EVERY HEADER has one cylinder that runs a tad higher EGT than the others with the same tune up.. With every engine I have tested with the Tangerine unit that cylinder is #1, no matter the engine, size, tune or etc..

You'll never see the difference in the CHT, but when you throw one size larger main in #1 the engine makes more power and the EGT has less differential...

Most every engine that leaves my dyno has 2, 3 or even 4 different size main jets.. One size doesn't fit all.. Why do I know this and you haven't heard it before?? because I haven't shared it because of smart assed remarks that would come from people like JP... Spend 10 years of your life data logging and you'd understand..

(this is why advanced EFI systems have individual cylinder trims per injector, to overcome the differentials created by intake and exhaust subsystems)

Posted by: ericread Jul 15 2009, 10:18 PM

Just for the record, I have never blown an engine... I mounted a tire once, but that's quite a different story.



Eric

Posted by: orange914 Jul 15 2009, 11:10 PM

deside contamination in the fuel is there anything else to look for... i.e. color or ?


or the terrorist who was sent out to blow up a bus... failed because he burnt his lips on the exhaust pipe

sorry, had to follow the lead here

Posted by: Mark Henry Jul 16 2009, 08:48 AM

Couple of short stories about bad gas....

When the wife and I were first married we went to Florida, on the way we filled up at a discount store. Car ran so shit I thought it was about to blow. At half a tank I pulled into a name brand station and filled up with super. Within a couple of blocks the engine ran fine again.

10-15 years ago A discount gas station in Toronto got caught dumping toxic waste into gas. They figure it had been going on for a long time, but the creeps got greedy and put too much in. Whole whack of blown engines traced back to them.

....and stale gas... I`ve seen seized valve guides on a few aircooled engines (not just VW).

Posted by: J P Stein Jul 16 2009, 11:12 AM

Bla,bla, bla

Another form letter I've seen before, full of invective & specious logic.
I can name call also, Jake. You want a taste? It would have to be off line as it is against the rules here. Oh, I forget, you're tight with the admins and rules don't apply to you.

I have experienced detonation from an air cooled motor. I couldn't hear it but I could feel it. I quit pushing hard up hill in 3dr gear. No rods popped out of the case....go figure.

Posted by: Mark Henry Jul 16 2009, 11:25 AM

Whoa! Alfred is back!


Oh.... it`s only JP ragging on Jake..... yet again....

We all know you`re a T4 hater....what else is new.

Posted by: ConeDodger Jul 16 2009, 11:41 AM

Long sweeping right hander at freeway speed. No detonation heard, no change in feel. Just pop, smoke, oil spray... Still ran on the three remaining cylinders. Oh, and no rods popped out of the case... that was piston shrapnel. Same with the wood chipper. Piston blew up. The gas is discolored and separates when you put it in a container into two distinct solutions. Even without analysis I'd say that it is bad. It isn't supposed to do that.

I am having a hard time finding your point. Are you a better driver because you felt the detonation? Was the engine better because it didn't blow? Rhetorical of course. I don't really care about your answers.

You like six cylinders. We get that. Your always bagging on California and Jake and Type IV motors. We get that. I built this motor. If you want to insult someone pay attention to me. I'm the one you'll piss off. And you can

Posted by: Jake Raby Jul 16 2009, 11:59 AM

Hell yes... Last time I checked I could handle anything that any mortal could throw at me. Bring it on.

...."As I walk through the Valley of the Shadow of Death I will fear no evil, for I am the meanest son of a bitch in the Valley."

That quote hangs on the wall of the Bathroom in my shop... Non hackers who do not pack the proper "gear" love it.. But not very many of those visit here and they generally leave rather quickly.

Though Robby's engine did break and even though it was due to bad fuel, it helps to make up my failure rate of less than 1% over the past 15 years... Porsche doesn't have a record that good with the M96 engine, about 5% of those fail before 40,000 miles and thats why I am enjoying working with them... I only like to work with engines that are black sheep, misunderstood and generally considered junk by the closed minded.

I'll take a 1% failure rate anyday, have 800 engines pass through your doors JP and see if you can maintain 1% with your name stamped on them.. Start now and report back in a decade and a half...

Oh yeah, make sure that at least 50% of those engines produce DOUBLE their stock power rating....

Posted by: jmill Jul 16 2009, 12:25 PM

Am I the only one that had to look up invective and specious.

Posted by: ConeDodger Jul 16 2009, 12:38 PM

No. JP is looking it up right now...

Posted by: DBCooper Jul 16 2009, 12:40 PM

Yes.

Posted by: ghuff Jul 16 2009, 01:00 PM

You know inaudible detonation will blow up a motor too? True story! Sometimse you do not even feel it until it lets go. This is why we have this new technology called a "knock sensor". Say it with me.

Here is what light detonation does to beefier rods at about 350ftlbs of torque! This is a solid cast iron block at that.





This one was 5th gear detonation cruising at highway speeds!




Here is another hint, if you can hear it detonating the damage is already done. That load + the engine load = failure of components. Not too hard to understand is it?

Second hint, the guy with the issue blew up lawn equipment with the same gas the car was running when it popped.

Astounding jeeves!

Posted by: RobW Jul 16 2009, 01:18 PM

Geez Rob, its been awhile but sorry buddy. If you need anything 2.0 related let me know... my stash o parts is your stash o parts..

So is the catastrophic failure due to bad gas left in the cylinder and heat exploding it at the wrong time? Sorry for the dumb question.... still not sure what exactly detonation means...

Does a particular fuel filter help prevent something like this? or do mere mortal 2.0s have less to worry about?

Posted by: Jake Raby Jul 16 2009, 01:51 PM

A filter collects contaminants... It doesn't know if fuel has the proper flash point or octane.. It will catch some water that can collect in fuel as well, but thats about it.


Detonation is just that, its an explosion within the chamber, not simple flame propogation thats "controlled"...

Posted by: JazonJJordan Jul 16 2009, 02:10 PM

Very good of you Jake- we will be watching for progress soon~ Hope it comes back together without a hitch. I will be sending some biz your way Jake, in the not too distant future. Thanks for being supportive-Jzn

Posted by: orange914 Jul 16 2009, 02:31 PM

i bet you have a type IV!... oh yeah, i do too

mike

Posted by: rtalich Jul 16 2009, 02:51 PM

OMG... what the heck is your problem? Oh... I know I know... Jake is better than you and just can't take it!! Well, you know what? Its OK, theres counseling for those types of disorders.

Jake has done nothing but great things with the Type IV motor and his customer service is second to none by a long shot!!! If your beef is with the Type IV in general, then why don't you go send your complaints to VW.

Excuse me... I have another crying baby to attend to... my 4 month old.

-Rob

Posted by: Chris Hamilton Jul 16 2009, 05:05 PM

It's funny how sensitive these motors can be sometimes and how tough other times. You have to remember that you're dealing with a small amount of material here. If something is creating excess heat or stress, there isn't much outlet for it other than to break things in a hurry.

You're at a serious advantage here because your 6-cylinder is so much heavier.

Posted by: ghuff Jul 16 2009, 05:21 PM

Detonation is fuel igniting when you do not want it to, pre-ignition. Some folks use the terms interchangably.

Basically, your crankshaft is moving up, your rod is moving up, and the charge ignites on a hot spot somewhere, this explosions creates a nasty pressure wave that is pushing back on the stuff as it is coming up.... That pressure wave plus the force of the rising piston/rod/etc is a LOT and too much for the motor to handle. Metal has it's limits.

Look at the broken rod above, the pistons in those motors will be fine to 650hp at the front wheels. That is the limit someone has reached. I have been driving on stock rods with 400hp, everyone tells me I should have thrown one. Well I have not because I am very anal about my tune.

Go look up how much force a piston/connecting rod is under as it's moving at 3000rpm.

This "pre-igniting" your mixture exerts loads on the metal that are way over normal combustion and etc.




Detonation can do that too, sometimes things do not always break. The type IV case looks thin though.

You can have inaudible light detonation that is slowly hammering away at your internals that only a knock sensor will pickup. You can also have total preignition that is blowing stuff apart due to the extreme force. This is why modern ECU's have knock sensors and retract timing. Sometimes you can't pull enough timing and bad gas is that, you end up with something like this. it's not black/white on/off there is inbetween with it.

I laugh again that there is someone who thinks because an air cooled once detonated, and they backed off that there is no way detonation can cause damage. That is mind blowingly stupid.

Posted by: J P Stein Jul 16 2009, 06:01 PM

Any of you are welcome to come play where I do & show me how much smarter you are than I. I'm reading a lot of words like "hate", "stupid", & "asshole"....the ass kissing smile was nice also. Too bad you clowns can't carry on a discussion without resorting to personal attacks.

The fact is that my engine did pre-ignite. Nothing broke and when I tore it down 7 years later, the piston tops, ring lands, rods & bearings showed no damage from that brief incident. Why piston tops you might ask?... because that is where detonation shows up most obviously. Rods can be bent from a few other causes and your pics show pistons in decent shape......they are whole for one and the tops aren't shown.

Here's a pic of the piston tops as removed from my engine....another after clean up. Nothing as trick as your T-4 pistons, but it was all I had. I noted that Robbie didn't show the tops of the pistons that survived his contretemps. His deduction that everything else is fine is simplistic....cause it ain't. There is crap all thru the oiling system.....but hay, what does a dummy like me know. Ya better ask Jake.

You laugh because ignorance is bliss it would seem.


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Posted by: J P Stein Jul 16 2009, 06:19 PM

Detonation's effect on a piston....*warning* not for the women & kiddies.


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Posted by: kwales Jul 16 2009, 06:19 PM

This will probably come as a big surprise, but high performance engines have been tuned to run at light knock for years

Why? It's where the max power point is.

Harry Ricardo noted this in the 1920's....

When you minimize engine part strength to minimize reciprocating part weight (ricer engines), you have to pay way more attention to the knock. Knock sensors were designed to run those engine at the hairy point of knock and to back it off slightly.

That being said, seen any 30 year old Honduh engines lately???

No? It's because they all went boom and there ain't any left......

Aircoolds are a bit more succeptable to knock because they run hotter.

Ugly melt on that piston JP

Posted by: J P Stein Jul 16 2009, 06:27 PM

They also run on the ragged edge of lean for fuel economy. Without knock sensors they wouldn't last thru the warranty period.

Posted by: jmill Jul 16 2009, 07:15 PM

I suppose the rest of you knew what contretemps means too.


Blowing a motor is costly and embarassing for a minute. What you learn from it is invaluable if you apply it in the future. I'm not to proud to say I smoked a few. I am proud to say I never smoked two the same way.

Posted by: MDG Jul 16 2009, 07:47 PM

So far, I'm good on vective, specious and contretemps. I've got a Webster's handy just in case though.

Posted by: SLITS Jul 16 2009, 08:19 PM

Personally, I think it was PU's fault.

Posted by: ConeDodger Jul 16 2009, 08:54 PM

The only things that will be reused from the old engine are the crank, heads... The external oil lines are being replaced too. The case, rods, pistons, etc. will be new. Everything will be meticulously cleaned. I am not concerned about the "oiling system". Which part of the oiling system are you concerned with? I'm not calling you a dummy but hey? What is left after you replace all that? The heads will be cleaned and refreshed, the crank will be cleaned... What system? Are you imagining some elaborate system? Nope. Just a remote filter with a line in and out.

90% + of these cars are Type IV motors. If you don't want to be called names then don't start this 6 vs. 4 crap. You're outnumbered and frankly your argument is tired. If you see a thread on the Type IV motor just move along.

Quit inviting people to come play in your playground too... Your not fast, your car isn't that fast either. Britain would be fast in an '80 Cavalier with bald junkyard tires... That glory isn't yours, quit claiming it.

Back on the gas... Yesterday I dropped the BMW off at the dealership for a check. It just had the major service interval in May and I have put about 1300 miles on since. It was killing at stop light/signs so I asked them to look it over to see if something was incorrectly adjusted at the service interval. Yopu dropped me off this morning and the service manager told me to come on back, he had my fuel filter skinned open and it was full of water and gum. It was replaced at the service. Yup. You guessed it, it got some of that gas too. Road it around Lake Tahoe this afternoon and got home an hour ago. Ran like a top with the new fuel filter.

Posted by: J P Stein Jul 16 2009, 09:12 PM

Fortunately you don't make the rules.

I did build every bit of my car so I should get a few of the bragging rights. You checkbook "builders" haven't a clue as to what that involves. The car & Brit were fast enough to lay it on every 914 at the Shoot Out in Ca last year. I notice you weren't there. When you get to be my age 2 seconds off his pace is about all one can expect.......still fast enough to whip you like a dog in the street,..no great accomplishment there.

Since you are being an asshole, I'll feel free to say that one would have to have less mechanical sympathy than a 3rd world goat herder to let bad gas destroy an engine. Write another check, chump.

My work here is done.

Posted by: ConeDodger Jul 16 2009, 09:26 PM

I didn't write a check. I built it. And you forget. I have seen you and your car. You got nothin'. Beaten by one of those Type IV's you love to bag on. By more than 2 seconds too if I recall correctly.

I wasn't at the shootout because I was OMG! building my car! Not writing checks. Underneath it building the suspension! Guess that argument was weak too huh?

I'm not being an asshole as you put it. I am simply telling you not to be one. You have nothing to contribute to this discussion. Leave it alone.

Posted by: r_towle Jul 16 2009, 09:26 PM

What makes you think that a herder (often called musterer) would have a lower IQ , or mechanical ability than someone of your age and experience?

Think of all the potential broken down tractors, tanks, humvees, and personel careerers that this herder may have encountered during the course of his lifetime...and possibly revived to make run once again so that he could sell them off to enhance the size of his herd.

Talk about bad gas...I would suspect that the accused herder would have some serious purity issues with the fuel supply in his country, potentially some mixed octane of unknown origins...

So, I would suggest that a herder or goat, sheep or even swine may have considerable experience with bad fuel, unknown mechanical issues, and custom parts replacement....far greater than any of our experience may possibly add up to when we walk into a parts store to order the exact replacement part we need, pass by the gas station and go in to get fuel and milk...milk that may have possibly come from a goat of foreign origin....managed by a herder.

Rich

Posted by: Jake Raby Jul 16 2009, 09:29 PM

Whats wrong with a personal attack?? Is their any other type?? If an attack doesn't hit home and piss someone off, then why make it??? Right JP?

For the better part of two years I have gone above and beyond to hold my temper with a few people, just because I don't have the time to deal with "it"... But there comes a time when I really don't give a damn and that time has come.

Glad to hear that you built your car JP, because there is no way anyone else could please you.. and why don't you buy a tail dragger to put that engine in, so you can fit in with the rest of the crowd that shares your attitude.

You've built one car... I built a dozen before I was 18 years old, by myself in an old shop on top of a Mountain in Georgia...

One day we'll meet and I'll ensure that you won't know when or where and it may be sooner than you think.

My work has been attacked by JP for the better part of this Millennium. I value this work as much as any family member...

Speaking of bad gas... Today we tore into a 996, 3.6 Vario Cam + engine that had cylinder liner failure.. It seems that the fuel in RUSSIA has attacked the cylinder liners and delaminated them with only 30K on the engine... Fuel can impact lots of aspects of an engine.. Just look at BMW with the Alusil issues of the past, attributed to the US fuel blend..

Ever had someone ship you an engine from Russia, JP???

Posted by: r_towle Jul 16 2009, 09:31 PM

yah....but can you herd goats??

Posted by: J P Stein Jul 16 2009, 10:04 PM

I never mentioned IQ. I know a few guys that have an IQ slightly higher than an eggplant who have a marvelous feel for things mechanical....yourself, for instance.

Posted by: r_towle Jul 16 2009, 10:10 PM

ah IC you are in rare form tonight.

Eggplants can come in so many sizes...therefore many levels of IQ, if it can even be measured with common measurement methodologies.

Just because you think that an Eggplant has an IQ lower than yours....does that mean it truely does?
Remember people used to think the world was flat also...

Diffusing is an art form.

Rich

Posted by: Millerwelds Jul 16 2009, 11:41 PM

Wow, seems like a lot of history here. For us newbies who are just getting to know each other, can I (we) get a little background on who's who? Seems like the primary players are JP and Jake, and of course Robby who started it all. So, who's who?

How long have you been playing with 914s?

Appx # of (re)builds (any)?
Appx # of (re)builds (type 4)?

Appx year of first engine (re)build (any)?
Appx year of first (re)build (type 4)?

Appx year of last engine (re)build (any)?
Appx year of last (re)build (type 4)?

Any special achievements (high MPG, high HP, high TQ, Longevity, Race Results, etc)?

Cars currently owned?

Others feel free to answer and / or add questions.

This could get interesting

Posted by: McMark Jul 16 2009, 11:53 PM

Pot, meet Mr. Kettle.

The drama in this thread is BS, but I will chime in to say that Rob built his own car. I would know since I've seen it from pretty much start to finish.

Posted by: r_towle Jul 16 2009, 11:54 PM

No, sorry you cant ask those questions here.
Its against all the truely rational behaviour we hold dear.
No pot stirring allowed.

Rich

Posted by: Chris Hamilton Jul 17 2009, 12:42 AM

You inched ahead of a stock 2.0 ( at that time ) powered car with an open diff ( at that time ) and the wrong tires the first day, and then lost the second day when we put some DOT tires on the car.

We need to have another one of these events next year so you can see how well you can lay it on us with double the power and a limited slip...

Oh and this time you need to remember that it's against the rules down here to have a geezer warming the tires for their hotshoe driver in the same rungroup.

It's all in good fun though, but when you start boasting about winning by a tenth on your own averaged combination of times as "laying it on us" you might want to check on your facts.

BTW I'm serious about having another shootout, that was pretty fun...

Posted by: Phoenix 914-6GT Jul 17 2009, 12:58 AM

We are having another but up in the Southern portion of Washington on August 8th and 9th. You should come Chris.

JP... leave it alone...Rob is a very nice guy who has done a lot for people wo really didn't deserve it. Shit happens but there really doesn't need to be a pissing match between an old guy and and an over confident arogant engine builder. You both are 914 guys and the car brings us all together. In person I am sure we would allBS and laugh about this.

Posted by: ConeDodger Jul 17 2009, 01:05 AM

I like 6 cylinders. I don't bag on the 6 guys... I just think that for once that crap should be left out...

Posted by: ottox914 Jul 17 2009, 07:58 AM

Wow had this strayed from its origins... I hadn't read it for awhile, and whoa- what was the topic... oh, yeah, a broken motor and crappy gas.

Still think this sucks for ConeDodger, but with the issues with other gas appliances around his place, seems build quality, or parts quality are not the problem here.

4 vs 6. Not again. The 4 guys like the light weight, and "underdog" status of the motors, the 6 guys have the heritage thing going on. I suppose now someone is going to chime in that you can't turbo a 914 either. (I'll be posting some pics to my build thread soon). What type of car has won the last several Porsche parade autocrosses? That'd be a 914. 4 cyl. Have there been some 6 cyl wins? You betcha.

Lets just all be friends, 4 vs 6 will never be resolved. Agree to dis-agree?

And support our 914 friend, ConeDodger on his replacement motor. If he wasn't 1/2 a country away, I'd invite him over to help me build my next motor. Being built not because it is a 4 cyl and it blew up, (it didn't) but being built because it can be so much more than it is, I like the idea of a lightweight 914, and I like to play around in the garage.

Posted by: Tom Jul 17 2009, 08:18 AM

Rob, anyone,
Is there any legal recourse that can be taken for these instances of bad gas? Any way to tell sooner than a blown engine that you have just gotten some of the bad gas?
By the way Rob, sorry to hear of your misfortune, hope you build an even better engine this time.
Tom

Posted by: ConeDodger Jul 17 2009, 09:09 AM

Jake would have known because of all the instrumentation he puts on his engines when he puts them on the dyno. The one gauge that would probably have been doing something odd (correct me if I am wrong Jake) is the EGT which I do have. I typically don't watch this gauge as it is up on the A-Pillar and really only relevent at WOT. I was on the freeway at steady state speed in 3 or 4 gear. I only sample CHT off of number 3 and it was fine. But what do I know? I'm just a goat herder with a PhD...

I have no time for lawyers. I doubt the gas station is liable beyond the fill I put in. In other words, I hire a lawyer to get another tank of gas.

It will be bigger and badder...

Posted by: ArtechnikA Jul 17 2009, 09:38 AM

it depends. You blow your motor a half block from the station, behind another guy who just blew his engine - you can make a pretty strong case (take fuel samples, go back to the pump and get some from there too...) You put all your spare gas in a big container and draw out what you need now and then? Good luck pointing the finger at any one supplier...
Like Jake says - it'll show up on EGT instantly if it's an octane problem. (If it's water the engine will probably just die, drain it, refill it, be on your way.) However, most of us without dynos, airplanes, or race cars, don't have EGT meters installed... Maybe it's becoming the price to pay for trying to run an air cooled engine these days. This thread has had me thinking even more seriously about adding one to my next car/engine/exhaust build...

Posted by: Smitty911 Jul 17 2009, 10:09 AM

Wow PETA must be making some serious headway if you need a PhD for herding sheep. But what about

I was talking to a PhD the other day at my front door. He wouldn't leave until I paid for the Pizza.

PhD - Pizzahut Delivery.

I guess if you didn't spend any money to build it the first time, and your not spending a dime for the Rebuild, maybe we should keep our opions to ourselves.

Bigger and Badder??? 3.0 Flat FOUR????

Posted by: MDG Jul 17 2009, 10:19 AM

4 vs. 6? I have one of each and LOVE them both.

Mind you, when I park them beside each other in the garage overnight, in the morning there's stuff knocked off shelves, cans on the floor, maybe a bent wiper blade or a busted mirror. Once the six had naughty German words sprayed down it's side in oil

I have no doubt that between you and Jake it'll be better than ever!

Posted by: jmill Jul 17 2009, 10:20 AM

I'm right there with you. I was dreaming up mounting the four gauges in my center console. A single EGT gauge wouldn't do it. It would be an average of all 4. I also run an AFR, but again it's an average. I'm thinking the best bang for the buck is to pay for the dyno tune. I do have to say that once I get my carb jetting dialed in I don't pay much attention to the AFR unless the engine runs rough. Oil temp, head temp and pressure are a different story. I check those as often as I check my mirrors.

Posted by: ArtechnikA Jul 17 2009, 10:44 AM

I don't like that idea because you don't care about majority rule, you care about the one cylinder with the BIG problem. e.g. - one dead cylinder may bring the average down a bit which you may not notice. 3 at 600 and one at room temperature will get your attention... Blow-torch high EGT's from bad gas _should_ be across-the-board, but even if only cylinder were peaking for some reason you'd want to know, as we've seen. The piston exiting the case is the problem and you can take no solace from the n-1 remaining good ones...

If you've got the bucks (and when we're talking about the cost of some of these engines it falls into the 'cheap insurance' category...) like the aircraft guys do, there are nice combo gauges that tell all. Do a search or go to Aircraft Spruce and have a look for "GEM" -- Graphical Engine Monitor. Shows CHT and EGT on a single multiple-bar-graph display. Since those guys are constantly monitoring fuel trims to achieve (something like) 50ºF lean-of-peak in cruise, it's really nice.

I think you could get by easily with one AFR sensor per collector but you really need one CHT and EGT per cylinder. Finding a way to package the display for convenient dashboard presentation is a little challenge, but I think with a cheap 8051 microcontroller and an LCD display or some 10-segment LED bar graphs you'd have enough data to keep you out of the danger zone.

Posted by: Racer Chris Jul 17 2009, 12:47 PM

4 channel, single readout, scanning EGT - advances at one second intervals.
Available exclusively at Tangerine Racing Products!

Posted by: r_towle Jul 17 2009, 05:44 PM

Chris,
My eyes are not getting better as I get older....and with the sunshine of the open top car, I would prefer analog....but...
Are the led panels red, or black/clear?
I cant see the black letter ones, but the red ones shine better in the sun.

rich

Posted by: jmill Jul 17 2009, 06:59 PM

Yeah, thats why I was thinking of four gauges. One per cylinder. I like analog also. One quick look is all it takes. I'm persnickety too. All the gauges need to match.

Posted by: pete-stevers Jul 17 2009, 08:56 PM

yeah yeah....yeah.....we all know six owners have bigger penises
.....
but a couple of questions
1...jp is yours still working
2.....jp??

Posted by: Racer Chris Jul 17 2009, 08:57 PM

Red numbers. The bargraph is multicolored.
I have no trouble reading them quickly in my race car.


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Posted by: ghuff Jul 18 2009, 09:01 AM

Play where you do? Is that some invitation to a place where people have no ability to think critically or assume they know everything?

One engine you built had issues and did not blow apart? Wow, that is a great selection of experience to draw from! We should all bow to your wisdom and experience here, you are a pillar of the internal combustion friendly community here.

You are really arguing something you do not understand....

You know why pistons are in decent shape? BECAUSE THE RODS ARE THE WEAK POINT. When you have a nice forged piston that can hold up to the detonation, but the rod is at it's stress point that force has to go somewhere he who is above all and God. The piston takes it, the crank takes it and may flex, the rod? It shatters or bends/cracks.

Most obviously, you do not understand just where the results of detonation can show up, which is almost anywhere.

In case you were too busy jacking yourself off mentally and stroking your ego, you missed the fact that those factory pistons in my picture have held up fine to 600+whp with a turbo probaly the size of your motor. We are talking cylinder pressures beyond what your detonating motor would see. With that comes occasional detonation, and at those power levels with that kind of fuel and cylinder pressure, things come apart fast.

You are a clown yourself. So here is your discussion without attacks. You want to go for it? Because I can find you many examples of detonation and what it does to internals on various motors.

The last 4G63 I blew up knocked a rod in half out the block, piston looked great, the rod took the starter out too. It was detonation. The top of the piston looked fine. Lots of timing + detonation = broken.

You can sit there and post using words which are not terribly common to appear more intelligent than you are, while there are millions of examples of what detonation does out there.

You understand metal fatigues as well right? You understand that detonation pushes metal beyond it's normal loads encountered and that metal has a memory? Use that large brain of yours. Wow me with your astounding intelligence and logic.

I laugh because you are a clown. Is that hard to understand?

(I have built many a motors, in cast iron blocks (various makes/types)facing ridiculous cylinder pressures, and have blown up a bunch for fun by cranking timing and doing other things. Others have blown due to simple detonation/preig+fatigue)

This experience comes when you hold such plebeian jobs as working at a junkyard with access to almost any car you can imagine and the ability to blow them up. *gasp*

I guess my real world experience with many different engines can not compare to your hypothetical intelligence and lack of the same experience! Oops!

So, since you are incredibly smarter than us, please tell us you did indeed reuse your motors internals after nasty detonation, knowing about metal fatigue. Please say that while trying to act like you are above most others in this thread.

(PS God of all things internal combustion, if you heard detonation and lifted it obviously was not bad gas which will blow a motor apart in short order since it's unfit to run period let alone just have a low octane and detonate lightly)

Your response can start with "I am sorry for making myself look stupid, I honestly do not understand what I am talking about, and next time I will shut up instead of mouth off about things I can not grasp."

Posted by: ghuff Jul 18 2009, 09:09 AM

To the OP:

I have a nice set of DEFI gauges and a control unit. I have an EGT guage, it has datalogging ability, and other things. I may be interested in selling the stuff....

It's not "porsche approved" but Defi is very accurate. The pyrometer can be a Defi brand or a generic used in it's place wired into the control unit. The gauges are all electronic, and the datalogging ability is great. You can datalog everything you connect from map + egt + boost etc.

This way you can play it back via the gauges and actually see what is/was going on for yourself realtime.





I can't reccomend this enough, since you can datalog a bunch of different things, pretty much anything the DEFI unit can do you can datalog at the same time. It also is nice having a map in the engine bay and wiring back to the cabin, less leaks etc.

Posted by: ConeDodger Jul 18 2009, 09:13 AM

To be fair ghuff, JP does have valuable and professional real world experience and does know what he is talking about. My objection is to the swirling of poo as it degenerates into a 4 vs. 6 thread. JP likes to take shots at Jake and 4 cylinders.

This engine failure was clearly not Jake's fault. Jake does great work with scientific method and results that change everything without adding all that 6 cylinder weight.

In a lot of cases, JP has done great things for people on this board in his area. In this case, he let the opportunity to bag on Jake get the better of him...

Posted by: stepuptotheMike Jul 18 2009, 09:25 AM

why don't we all take a





Mike

Posted by: rhodyguy Jul 18 2009, 11:27 AM

can we get a few more quotes in the replies? quotes of quotes. plenty of them too. enough so i have to....

Posted by: J P Stein Jul 18 2009, 01:17 PM

Of course it's still working. Brit took the XP class at the Paclwood SCCA National Tour event last week.
We'll be at the Shoot Out in 2 weeks.

Last time the power fell off (after 7 years of thrashing on it), it was my fault....for not checking each & every ring gap & using the wrong rings. I *learned* from that.

Posted by: r_towle Jul 18 2009, 02:24 PM

yup


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Posted by: KELTY360 Jul 18 2009, 03:33 PM

Man, I can really do without the IN YOUR FACE attitude that has been degenerating some threads lately. It only takes one IN YOUR FACE kind of post to throw off a rational discussion.

Funny, it seems like the same person with the IN YOUR FACE, CHIP ON THE SHOULDER ATTITUDE. So, if you can figure out who that person could be......STFU.....we don't need the drama.

Thanks, I feel better now. Peace out.

Posted by: r_towle Jul 18 2009, 03:37 PM

Posted by: DNHunt Jul 18 2009, 05:39 PM

Who the hell is this ghuff guy to come on here and sling shit? You want some credibility then lets hear what you've done. Both Jake and JP have been around for a long time and I'm indebted to both of them for their help. Both have lots of experience and I listen to both of them. They don't agree but that's their deal. A new guy comes and starts mixing it up with them he better bring a bunch of ammo (in Jake's case that is no BS). I for one would stand up for either one of them. I hope I never have to choose sides between them.

So let's hear what you got ghuff. You got credentials, let's hear about them otherwise, you are just egging the guys on in a fight that isn't yours and you should keep out of it.

The 4 vs 6 fight will never be settled. I'd like to have one of both.

Rob wish I could be down at your place to help you get your car going again.

Dave

Posted by: jimkelly Jul 18 2009, 05:55 PM

i know where the fuel goes

i know where the oil goes

and

i know where my right and left feet go

top that

peace out you all

Posted by: Randal Jul 18 2009, 06:21 PM

Yup, two are better than one; it's true what they say....

It will be great to have both race cars running, which will be very very soon as my Big Four is now in the garage with the head work complete and ready to go back into the car, with it's new (complete end to end) cage.

We have a quick trip to Santa Rosa to confirm the fuel map above 6K, but after that we should be good to go.

Posted by: kwales Jul 18 2009, 07:02 PM

Trolling, trolling, over the bounding main.....

And an awful lot of the diatribe above with quotes is pure BS...

Not you JP...

Posted by: Jake Raby Jul 18 2009, 07:29 PM

Well... I am done with this one.

I have two hard weeks ahead of me and no time for elevated drama...

I have to admit.. The post regarding JP's alledged impotence was just too much! I laughed so much I almost hyperventilated!

Posted by: Bleyseng Jul 18 2009, 07:54 PM

and this crap is why I don't bother too much reading posts......

JP is a stand up guy and knows what he knows....no sense on blasting him.

Posted by: Phoenix 914-6GT Jul 18 2009, 08:15 PM

Wow....

Posted by: ConeDodger Jul 18 2009, 08:34 PM

Settle down guys... JP and I have no problem with each other. Move along... There is nothing to see here.

Posted by: Phoenix 914-6GT Jul 18 2009, 08:38 PM

I have a problem with you























You don't live closer to us PNW guys

Posted by: ericread Jul 18 2009, 08:42 PM

So for a final result here; Which is better? A 4 or a 6?

I'd really like a final answer...

Eric

Posted by: ConeDodger Jul 18 2009, 08:44 PM

Yopu wants to move. I will ask her if she wants to move to the soggy side of nowhere! I am a bit tired of the taxes and Hot! Hot! Hot! Central Valley Weather.

Edited so Kevin doesn't have to scroll so far down the page.

Posted by: KELTY360 Jul 18 2009, 08:46 PM

Spoken like a true asshat.

Posted by: ConeDodger Jul 18 2009, 08:50 PM

This was Jon's work when he worked for Washington DMV... Also how he learned to paint stripes on his car!


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Posted by: ConeDodger Jul 18 2009, 08:52 PM

I have to go with Randall on that one... One of each is better.

Posted by: DNHunt Jul 19 2009, 07:56 AM

A friend at dinner last time suggested I needed another 914. I immediately thought a six. But, Betsy said "One more car, one less wife". I can't say I wasn't tempted. Truth is I think one wife is less trouble than 2 914's. Anyone care to argue that one.

Dave

Posted by: Smitty911 Jul 19 2009, 10:55 AM

I would but my wife is watching right now. LOL