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914World.com _ 914World Garage _ Factory Radios - Fact or Fiction?
Posted by: Lavanaut May 11 2009, 01:29 PM
Edit: This thread started out with my question below but quickly changed to a debate about whether or not any 914s ever came from the factory with radios. Lots of cool pics at least! But since I have a vested interest in my original question I'm going to take it elsewhere and let this thread continue down the path of the "radios debate". Even gave it a new title to draw more members with interest in that topic.
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Ok so this post probably belongs in the originality forum but I need to figure this out asap and answers come slooooooow over there...so, sorry Pat.
My /6 came from the factory with a Frankfurt. The radio that's in there now (Sapphire, see below), while period correct, doesn't match the COA so I'm going to replace it while I tackle the dash replacement. The plate around the Sapphire is a plastic, attached piece and after doing some searching here and elsewhere I'm pretty sure it's actually part of the stereo and not part of the car.
So my question is ~ what's gonna be correct? Judging from pics I've dug up and and based on my '74, I'm guessing it's just that little metal plate/surround piece covered in basketweave material. Can anyone here speak to this?
thanks!
Reid
(sorry for blurry pic)
Posted by: mikez May 11 2009, 01:52 PM
That plate is exactly like the one I pulled out of the 76 I just whacked....
Posted by: MDG May 11 2009, 02:02 PM
it's identical to the Sapphire in my ,73 as well. And yes, that chromed plastic surround is part of the stereo not the car
Posted by: McMark May 11 2009, 02:05 PM
Yeah, most of them are a steel 18g plate that has basketweave attached to it.
Attached image(s)
Posted by: Lavanaut May 11 2009, 02:35 PM
QUOTE(MDG @ May 11 2009, 01:02 PM)
And yes, that chromed plastic surround is part of the stereo not the car
It's actually the whole plate (plastic), not just the chrome part.
QUOTE(McMark @ May 11 2009, 01:05 PM)
Yeah, most of them are a steel 18g plate that has basketweave attached to it.
Mark, do you know if that's true coming from the factory? I'm 99% certain at this point, but that last 1% is giving me fits.
Thanks
Posted by: Gustl May 11 2009, 02:38 PM
back in the days there was an original Blaupunkt radio installation kit available
it included the correct face plate, all brackets, cable, speakers and what else you would need to install the radio
I've seen a NOS kit for sale last year, but the asking price was just hilarious (somewhat around US$ 300)
see here a correct Blaupunkt Frankfurt, installed in a 914-6
Attached image(s)
Posted by: mikez May 11 2009, 02:44 PM
Well, I just looked.... my /6 has the same crappy Sapphire AM/FM.....
Posted by: MDG May 11 2009, 04:33 PM
QUOTE(Lavanaut @ May 11 2009, 04:35 PM)
QUOTE(MDG @ May 11 2009, 01:02 PM)
And yes, that chromed plastic surround is part of the stereo not the car
It's actually the whole plate (plastic), not just the chrome part.
Thanks
ah, I though you were just referring to the dial/button surround. The actual plate that the radio mounts in (which gets covered with the squareweave for your year) is metal on both of my cars. But mine are '73 and '76 - not sure if the early ones were plastic.
Posted by: Cap'n Krusty May 11 2009, 05:02 PM
Every plate I've seen has been steel with a vinyl covering. I've never, in my 36 years of working on 914s, ever seen a factory installed radio in one.
The Cap'n
Posted by: Lavanaut May 11 2009, 05:18 PM
Great pics Wolfgang, thanks. The closeup of the radio is just what I've been looking for. That install kit is still available, but it's $500!!
Good input Cap'n, sounds like I need a plastic plate to fit the Frankfurt.
Thanks all!
Reid
Posted by: SirAndy May 11 2009, 05:29 PM
QUOTE(Lavanaut @ May 11 2009, 04:18 PM)
Cap'n, I think you just answered my question but I want to make sure I understand what you're saying -- that factory installed radios were never mounted in a vinyl-covered plate, but were instead mounted in a plastic plate (like the one in my first post)? Sounds like I need a plastic plate that'll fit the Frankfurt.
I think what he meant is that
there are no factory installed radios.
The radios were dealer installed and it was up to the dealer on how to install them.
Andy
Posted by: Lavanaut May 11 2009, 05:30 PM
Not according to my COA. There definitely were factory installed radios, I've come across that in my research many times!
Wolfgang has the facts/opt codes, I know...
Posted by: Lavanaut May 11 2009, 05:51 PM
Just to dispel the idea that I'm making this stuff up, I grabbed one of my books. Rich Johnson's 914 and 914-6 A Restorer's Guide to Authenticity, p. 66:
QUOTE
Many radios were dealer-installed making numer-
ous combinations of radios and aerials original. The
chart on the right lists radio types offered as original
equipment by the Porsche factory.
..and then, in the chart for '71:
QUOTE
...
Frankfurt - U.S., AM/FM
...
...which is exactly what my COA says. I'm convinced.
Reid
Posted by: SirAndy May 11 2009, 07:02 PM
QUOTE(Lavanaut @ May 11 2009, 04:30 PM)
Not according to my COA.
There definitely were factory installed radios, I've come across that in my research many times! Wolfgang has the facts/opt codes, I know...
Yes, there were factory "options" for different radios, but the actual *install* was done by the dealer, not the factory.
Andy
Posted by: carr914 May 11 2009, 08:30 PM
And according to all the books, a Heated AND Tinted Rear Window never existed, but I have one, so don't believe every myth that comes down the road.
T.C.
Posted by: SirAndy May 11 2009, 09:44 PM
The COA tells you what your car was ordered with, not how it left the factory ...
It's a marketing tool, not a assembly line checklist.
Andy
Posted by: Gustl May 12 2009, 12:55 AM
QUOTE(SirAndy @ May 12 2009, 02:02 AM)
Yes, there were factory "options" for different radios, but the actual *install* was done by the dealer, not the factory.
Andy
sorry Andy, but that's not correct
every option, that had a "M-Oprion Code" was installed by the factory
other additional equipment (like ski racks, snow chains, suit case set, ...) that had order codes like 914.801.901.00 (that's the ski rack) was not factory installed
when you picked up your 914 at the factory then they gave it to you,
when you picked up your 914 at the dealer then it was "dealer installed" (if possible)
of course there was the possibility, that a dealer beefed up a new 914 with a dealer installed radio (for example when the customer wanted another radio than possible from the factory), but there was also the possibility that the car came with a factory installed radio, which is shown on the COA
a dealer installed radio is NEVER on a COA
the COA represents the configuration when the car left the assembly line at the factory - they had "configuration cards for every car they built
just think about this: do you really think that the factory corrects this cards after the car was sold ?? that means, that they had so search for some very old cards to insert new infos, when the car sold 6 months after it left factory
and to some markets it took pretty long to get the cars shipped to and then they needed to sell them (thinking of the USA, Japan and others)
Gustl
Posted by: Gustl May 12 2009, 12:57 AM
QUOTE(SirAndy @ May 12 2009, 04:44 AM)
It's a marketing tool, not a assembly line checklist.
Andy
might be correct for today
but the infos on the COA come from microfishes form the old production cards
and these cards represent the configuration from the car leaving the assembly line - not as a check list, but as a "to do list"
Posted by: carr914 May 12 2009, 05:06 AM
QUOTE(SirAndy @ May 11 2009, 11:44 PM)
The COA tells you what your car was ordered with, not how it left the factory ...
It's a marketing tool, not a assembly line checklist.
Andy
If you look, my COA is an older one (when they cared and actually got things right), not one of the newer pieces of rubbish. Signed by Fred Scwab - he's been gone quite awhile.
I'm pretty sure that my car left the Factory with Paint, a Leather Steering Wheel, Light Alloy Wheels and a Radio
Posted by: 914Sixer May 12 2009, 06:17 AM
Rear windows were never tinted! Heated or unheated.
Posted by: agentblr May 12 2009, 08:02 AM
I agree with What the capt'n said about the Face plates..... until a month ago I parted an early 73 2.0 and the face plate is solid plastic with the basket weave pattern that exactly maches the vinly. It does not have the same opening as 914sixers though. It has what I call the din style opening basicly the same as the radio hole in the dash. So is this peice porsche or blaupunkt?? or aftermarket?
Posted by: rwjames May 12 2009, 08:22 AM
For what it's worth, both the original window sticker and 15 year old COA for my 1970 914-6 show the Frankfurt radio.
I don't have a copy of the COA with me, but here is a scan of the original window sticker.
Attached image(s)
Attached File(s)
Sticker.pdf ( 122.69k )
Number of downloads: 96
Posted by: carr914 May 12 2009, 08:37 AM
QUOTE(914Sixer @ May 12 2009, 08:17 AM)
Rear windows were never tinted! Heated or unheated.
Then I must have the only one in existence
T.C.
Posted by: Gustl May 12 2009, 09:59 AM
QUOTE(carr914 @ May 12 2009, 03:37 PM)
QUOTE(914Sixer @ May 12 2009, 08:17 AM)
Rear windows were never tinted! Heated or unheated.
Then I must have the only one in existence
T.C.
not really - a friend of mine has one on the shelf
I was always wondering about this one - tinted and heated - and everyone knew that it shouldn't exist
so - it's good to know that you also have one
Posted by: Lavanaut May 12 2009, 11:24 AM
QUOTE(Gustl @ May 11 2009, 11:55 PM)
every option, that had a "M-Oprion Code" was installed by the factory
other additional equipment (like ski racks, snow chains, suit case set, ...) that had order codes like 914.801.901.00 (that's the ski rack) was not factory installed
when you picked up your 914 at the factory then they gave it to you,
when you picked up your 914 at the dealer then it was "dealer installed" (if possible)
of course there was the possibility, that a dealer beefed up a new 914 with a dealer installed radio (for example when the customer wanted another radio than possible from the factory), but there was also the possibility that the car came with a factory installed radio, which is shown on the COA
a dealer installed radio is NEVER on a COA
Thanks for that Wolfgang. I feel there is sufficient evidence to support the notion that some cars did in fact come from the factory with a stereo. And actually, I have yet to see
any evidence that this isn't true.
QUOTE(rwjames @ May 12 2009, 07:22 AM)
For what it's worth, both the original window sticker and 15 year old COA for my 1970 914-6 show the Frankfurt radio.
Let's bring this back around to the original topic ~ what surrounds the Frankfurt in your six? Is it a plastic plate, or is it basketweave vinyl over (presumably) steel?
Thanks!
Posted by: SirAndy May 12 2009, 11:37 AM
QUOTE(Lavanaut @ May 12 2009, 10:24 AM)
And actually, I have yet to see
any evidence that this isn't true.
Show me one car with a nice, clean antenna hole and not one that looks like it was hacked into the fender by a 3 year old.
Andy
Posted by: SirAndy May 12 2009, 12:32 PM
QUOTE(Gustl @ May 12 2009, 11:24 AM)
and btw - here's another one with factory installed radio and antenna (it was not sold via dealership)
Needs wheel spacers in the front!
Andy
Posted by: Lavanaut May 12 2009, 12:43 PM
QUOTE(SirAndy @ May 12 2009, 10:37 AM)
Show me one car with a nice, clean antenna hole and not one that looks like it was hacked into the fender by a 3 year old.
Andy
That's the "evidence" that has you convinced that these other documents/resources are incorrect?
Posted by: SirAndy May 12 2009, 12:51 PM
QUOTE(Lavanaut @ May 12 2009, 11:43 AM)
Just show me one ...
Posted by: Lavanaut May 12 2009, 01:47 PM
QUOTE(SirAndy @ May 12 2009, 11:51 AM)
Just show me one ...
If that's enough for you to draw your conclusions from Andy, right on. Me, I'm inclined to believe the other empirical evidence to the contrary that we've seen here. Let's agree to let the other rational folks out there do the same. Thanks for your input though, I'll definitely pay closer attention to the antennae hole in the future!
Back to this radio plate question. Hopefully there will be some examples posted for reference.
Plastic? Vinyl on steel?
Posted by: SirAndy May 12 2009, 02:07 PM
QUOTE(Lavanaut @ May 12 2009, 12:47 PM)
I'll definitely pay closer attention to the antennae hole in the future!
What antenna hole????
Oh, look at all those factory 914s leaving the Karmann lot. Without an antenna. Or a hole to mount one.
Yes, i can see you did a lot of "research" on the subject ...
Andy
PS: I have a whole stash of images from the factory assembly line as well as factory showcars. Not one car has an antenna or a hole to mount one.
Attached image(s)
Posted by: Lavanaut May 12 2009, 02:25 PM
Andy, why so wrapped up in whether or not I believe you? Like I said there've been arguments made for both sides. I'm a rational guy, I've done my own research, I've seen what others have to say, and I've come to my own conclusion. Others will do the same. Why do you feel your opinion must be "right"?
That's a rhetorical question of course. What I'm actually interested in is the plate surrounding Blaupunkt Frankfurt stereos in factory sixes.
Again, Andy, thanks for the input. I'd appreciate it though if you'd let this get back on topic.
Reid
Posted by: Gustl May 12 2009, 02:31 PM
QUOTE(SirAndy @ May 12 2009, 09:07 PM)
Oh, look at all those factory 914s leaving the Karmann lot. Without an antenna. Or a hole to mount one.
on this photo you won't see an antenna even if 9 from 10 cars would have it
Posted by: SirAndy May 12 2009, 02:36 PM
QUOTE(Lavanaut @ May 12 2009, 01:25 PM)
Why do you feel your opinion must be "right"?
What i feel is that a lot of people around here are way too fast in accepting gossip for truth.
Andy
Posted by: SirAndy May 12 2009, 02:38 PM
QUOTE(Gustl @ May 12 2009, 01:31 PM)
QUOTE(SirAndy @ May 12 2009, 09:07 PM)
Oh, look at all those factory 914s leaving the Karmann lot. Without an antenna. Or a hole to mount one.
on this photo you won't see an antenna even if 9 from 10 cars would have it
I know.
I have another one of the Karmann lot that gives you a much better view of the cars, but i agreed not to share that picture. (Along with a whole batch of others from Karmann)
None of them has an antenna.
Andy
Posted by: bandjoey May 12 2009, 02:57 PM
Now that Karman is bankrupt, it'll be ok to share. Anyway, the 70 six I bought new from Forest Lane Porsche in Dallas had the radio in the car and on the window sticker...I don't know how it got in the car or on the sticker. Wish I still had the car. Bill
Posted by: Gustl May 12 2009, 03:03 PM
QUOTE(SirAndy @ May 12 2009, 09:38 PM)
None of them has an antenna.
Andy
as I told you before ... check all the marketing brochures and magazine ads
there are lots of cars showing the antenna - and some interior shots showing radios
and don't tell me they used cars from any dealership to make factory photos
here're just a couple of examples - there are lots more:
Gustl
Posted by: Gustl May 12 2009, 03:05 PM
@ Reid
sorry for going deep OT
Posted by: SirAndy May 12 2009, 03:11 PM
QUOTE(Gustl @ May 12 2009, 02:03 PM)
check all the marketing brochures and magazine ads there are lots of cars showing the antenna
A lot of the marketing cars were "dressed up" for the photo shoot. And there's just as many without antenna. So, what does that prove then?
Somebody must have drilled that hole for the antenna into that nice, fresh paint at some point. None of the assembly line pictures i have shows an antenna hole.
If that was in fact a factory job, then why do all antenna holes look like they've been cut by hand with a hacksaw?
Andy
PS: Here's a "marketing" display. Note the lack of an antenna.
Attached thumbnail(s)
Posted by: Gustl May 12 2009, 03:34 PM
Andy, I can't play this game for a longer time, because I have to go to sleep (remember the time gap)
but here's some additional stuff ...
Posted by: Gustl May 12 2009, 03:36 PM
QUOTE(SirAndy @ May 12 2009, 10:11 PM)
A lot of the marketing cars were "dressed up" for the photo shoot. And there's just as many without antenna. So, what does that prove then?
a lot means not all - and where's your prove that
all the antennas in the brochures and ads are just "dressed up"
Posted by: Gustl May 12 2009, 03:37 PM
QUOTE(SirAndy @ May 12 2009, 10:11 PM)
PS: Here's a "marketing" display. Note the lack of an antenna.
and what does this photo prove ??
just that this one 914-6 didn't have an antenna ...
Posted by: SirAndy May 12 2009, 03:42 PM
QUOTE(Gustl @ May 12 2009, 02:37 PM)
and what does this photo prove ??
just that this one 914-6 didn't have an antenna ...
Yes.
Posted by: Gustl May 12 2009, 03:46 PM
here are some photos from the Karman factory - note the antennas
Posted by: Lavanaut May 12 2009, 03:47 PM
QUOTE
If that was in fact a factory job, then why do all antenna holes look like they've been cut by hand with a hacksaw?
Back to this again? Man I'll start a different thread about face plates, this has too much momentum to try to stop at this point!
Don't forget Andy, your point is that
no cars left the factory with a stereo. You haven't presented any evidence to support that claim - showing two cars w/o antennaes only supports that
some cars left the factory without antennaes.
Nobody is disputing that.
Wolfgang (and myself to a far lesser extent) have provided plenty of evidence to support the notion that
some cars did leave the factory with radios. None of us were there as eyewitnesses - all we can do is draw conclusions from what documented evidence exists. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method and all that.
Lend credibility to your argument by showing us something that suggests what you're saying is true, otherwise it's your argument that's "gossip" (to use your term).
And hey, no personal attacks...totally unnecessary. I consider myself a student of 914s - I have zero interest in being "right", I just want to learn what is. If what you're saying is true and you can prove it, I will be grateful for the information.
Reid
Posted by: Gustl May 12 2009, 03:48 PM
at the 1973 Paris Motor Show
at the 1974 Paris Motor Show
Posted by: SirAndy May 12 2009, 04:12 PM
Thanks for those pics, all of which go nicely with what i said earlier.
"Dressed up" for the photo shoot.
Of course you'd want to show all the options in a staged marketing brochure or a auto show.
Just look at all those pretty paint jobs!
Andy
Posted by: carr914 May 12 2009, 05:50 PM
QUOTE(Gustl @ May 12 2009, 11:59 AM)
QUOTE(carr914 @ May 12 2009, 03:37 PM)
QUOTE(914Sixer @ May 12 2009, 08:17 AM)
Rear windows were never tinted! Heated or unheated.
Then I must have the only one in existence
T.C.
not really - a friend of mine has one on the shelf
I was always wondering about this one - tinted and heated - and everyone knew that it shouldn't exist
so - it's good to know that you also have one
Man, I was about to start the bidding for mine at $50k.
No Offense Andy, but your argument about the radios is off track. You've been presented evidence, but you won't concede. You don't present any evidence to your side, but refuse to give in.
. Next time I'm in Orlando I will take a picture of my antenna hole for you. I will even take a picture of my other 914-6 that has an antenna in the right location ( doesn't look like a hack job), but I don't have a COA on that car yet. Not that it matters as it will be a Marathon Re-Creation car.
T.C.
Posted by: rwjames May 12 2009, 07:35 PM
My 1973 914 2.0 has a Sapphire radio with black basketweave plastic faceplate. The COA does not list a radio on the option list. In my opinion, it was dealer installed.
My 1970 914-6 has a Blaupunkt Frankfurt radio with vinyl wrapped steel faceplate. The original window sticker and 15 year old COA both show the Frankfurt radio under optional equipment.
Attached image(s)
Posted by: SirAndy May 12 2009, 07:46 PM
QUOTE(rwjames @ May 12 2009, 06:35 PM)
My 1970 914-6 has a Blaupunkt Frankfurt radio with vinyl wrapped steel faceplate. The original window sticker and 15 year old COA both show the Frankfurt radio under optional equipment.
Do i see a pattern here? Anyone out there with a /4 COA that lists a radio?
Andy
Posted by: Gustl May 13 2009, 05:18 AM
Andy,
you deny everything and can't provide anything
your comments are ridiculous and almost embarrassing
this is a waste of time
I absolutely regret that I jumped on this train - but this is my station
I'm out
Posted by: Jasfsmith May 13 2009, 07:51 AM
QUOTE(Lavanaut @ May 12 2009, 03:47 PM)
QUOTE(SirAndy @ May 12 2009, 11:51 AM)
Just show me one ...
If that's enough for you to draw your conclusions from Andy, right on. Me, I'm inclined to believe the other empirical evidence to the contrary that we've seen here. Let's agree to let the other rational folks out there do the same. Thanks for your input though, I'll definitely pay closer attention to the antennae hole in the future!
Back to this radio plate question. Hopefully there will be some examples posted for reference.
Plastic? Vinyl on steel?
Here is a photo of my radio in my Euro 6. The trim is metal. Arrived with radio. As far as I can tell it came with the car originally.
Posted by: dr914@autoatlanta.com May 13 2009, 11:54 AM
option codes for 914-6 factory installed radios (and the vast majority of U.S. dealers ordered the 914s without a radio) are as follows
452 Radio Blaupunkt Frankfurt l m k u
453 Radio Blaupunkt Frankfurt US Band m u
454 Radio Blaupunkt Koln Automatik l m k u
these radios included the antenna loudspeaker kit.
the code for the loud speaker alone is 440
the four cylinder radio codes were as follows
095 Radio Blaupunkt Wolfsburg mw lw
097 Radio Blaupunkt Emden MW LW UKW
these of course are only for the 70 - 72 cars as the factory document I have was printed 9/1/71
QUOTE(Lavanaut @ May 11 2009, 12:29 PM)
Edit: This thread started out with my question below but quickly changed to a debate about whether or not any 914s ever came from the factory with radios. Lots of cool pics at least! But since I have a vested interest in my original question I'm going to take it elsewhere and let this thread continue down the path of the "radios debate". Even gave it a new title to draw more members with interest in that topic.
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Ok so this post probably belongs in the originality forum but I need to figure this out asap and answers come slooooooow over there...so, sorry Pat.
My /6 came from the factory with a Frankfurt. The radio that's in there now (Sapphire, see below), while period correct, doesn't match the COA so I'm going to replace it while I tackle the dash replacement. The plate around the Sapphire is a plastic, attached piece and after doing some searching here and elsewhere I'm pretty sure it's actually part of the stereo and not part of the car.
So my question is ~ what's gonna be correct? Judging from pics I've dug up and and based on my '74, I'm guessing it's just that little metal plate/surround piece covered in basketweave material. Can anyone here speak to this?
thanks!
Reid
(sorry for blurry pic)
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