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914World.com _ 914World Garage _ Cheap, simple, non-factory FI solution, parts, etc...
Posted by: Gint Jun 4 2009, 04:39 PM
I've thought about doing a Megasquirt for a while now to replace my carbs. I have a Mallory that works great, so to keep the initial cost down as well as keep it simple, I want to do fuel only, but have an upgrade path available for ignition later. Ideally if this could be done for under $500 that would be fantastic.
So...
What is the easiest, cheapest, most simple solution for induction parts? Throttle bodies, injectors, TPS, etc...? Which MS unit has the flexibility to do fuel now and ignotion later without starting all over again with a different ECU?
Engine is a 2056 that is built on a 1.8 case and heads with a 2.0 crank, rods and P/Cs. Currently running dual Weber 40 IDFs. 
(my own note: 40 IDF 70 9A, Italy)
Posted by: SLITS Jun 4 2009, 06:03 PM
Just buy the TEC 2 Engine Management System I have and you will be ok. 
Posted by: Gint Jun 4 2009, 06:42 PM
Tell me what exactly you're talking about and maybe I will.
Posted by: tat2dphreak Jun 4 2009, 07:47 PM
this is something I've thought about doing later, myself... I have most of the stock FI part, but no MPS, also with a 2056, running 40 IDFs...
Posted by: orcadigital Jun 4 2009, 07:55 PM
I am interested too, would love to lose the single 32/36 on my 1.7L parts car and replace it with FI...
Posted by: SLITS Jun 4 2009, 08:20 PM
Tell me what exactly you're talking about and maybe I will.
Come on Gint .... Electromotive TEC 2 Engine Management System. Uses mostly GM sensors, etc. Total programable engine management .... fuel & ignition.
You could be the "King of Bling"!
Posted by: rick 918-S Jun 4 2009, 08:23 PM
This is an important subject as our injection stuff gets old and parts go NLA.
So, I've been thinking about using something off if a Jap 4 cylinder. I think with a little reverse engineering a setup off like a Geo Tracker or one of the Kia engines could work.
Posted by: Gint Jun 4 2009, 09:25 PM
You could be the "King of Bling"!
No idea exactly what you're pimping though. Complete setup, half the parts, etc... But it's probably out of my budget anyway.
Back to the original subject...
Help me figure out what parts to use gang. Who's BTDT?
Posted by: banger Jun 4 2009, 10:35 PM
Megasquirt is pretty cheap and easy, and you can use most of the stock parts. On mine, I use the stock injectors, pump, Intake Air Temp, Cylinder Head Temp, and relay board. The manifold pressure sensor is built into Megasquirt, so thats all you need.
Posted by: toon1 Jun 4 2009, 10:36 PM
Back to the original subject...
Help me figure out what parts to use gang. Who's BTDT?
I've BTDT! It can easily be done for $500.
If you use MS1 for fueling now you can downoad MS&SE later, this will give you spark and fuel.
Wire harness is about $60( i suggest you go with a new harness).
TPS, $15-20, on the cheap.
It's possible to use the carbs. as TB's and get manifolds with injector ports or go back to the stock induction setup.
A relay board is about $60 suggested but not required
HP fuel pump and regulator are needed.
There are deals on used stuff, you might be able to find an assembled unit for a good price.
Go to the MS forums and check out some of the vendors.
There are lots of options, but it can be done for $500
Posted by: McMark Jun 4 2009, 10:43 PM
My thoughts:
The ECU setup is going to eat up most of your budget, so you're going to need to use as many stock components as possible. The TPS is not compatible with any new system. Throttle bodies will be out of your price range, and without a bunch of R&D, stock FI setup will be your best bet.
You're not going to find a 'bolt on' setup since the TPS isn't compatible (as mentioned) and the injectors are low impedance and most new systems use high impedance injectors. You'll need to fabricate your own wiring harness, and I've found that this is the most PITA part of the setup. Wire crimp integrity is important, as well as wire routing and length.
My best recommendation would be to get a 'junker' motor that you can fire on a test stand with the FI setup. Get it all working reliably before you make the swap, then sell the 'junker'. I always hate to see a running car get relegated to the R&D cycle. Things will go wrong and cause problems. Driving your car while you're figuring it out is obviously preferable. 
Good Luck!
Posted by: banger Jun 4 2009, 10:55 PM
Actually with the Megasquirt, the TPS isnt even necessary, you can run without it as well. You could do the whole system for less than $500 is you have access to all the stock FI parts.
Posted by: Rotary'14 Jun 4 2009, 11:35 PM
Avoid the hassel of building it yourself,, go with a pre-built unit if you don't solder too well.
this place sells them pre made
http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/megasquirt-complete-c-25.html?osCsid=1786e6af610efda5a2b053517d64063f
MS1 is the older version of the DIY FI there is less resolution in the maps,, slower CPU
MS2 is the newer version of the above chip,, faster and more memory blah blah.
Both of the above, MS1 & MS2 chips plug into a "motherboard" for the FI. Either version 2.2 or version 3. V3 adds some additional ignition control with an onboard VR sensor.
If you plan on running a Distributor with your CSOB FI,, you can get away with a V2.2 MS1,, this will run fuel only with only a wire to the coil for RPM.
Aside from my lack of patience/success with my super hacked rotary MegaSquirt project,, I do believe it's a good reliable FI system, with a really slick user interface.
-Rob
Posted by: charliew Jun 5 2009, 12:02 AM
While you are shopping keep in mind that the coil on plug will be the ultimate ignition. Try to see if that can be brought in at some point. There is nothing that helps more than really good consistent spark and timing control. I too think the fuel is the first but as soon as that is under control the spark should be included and not put aside.
Posted by: rick 918-S Jun 5 2009, 12:24 AM
I like McMarks test engine idea. Hey, So am I off my nut to suggest using a modern FI off some 1.8 or 2.0 four banger? Find something with a blown up engine and strip the whole thing off including the injectors. Peel back the harness and strip everything that doesn't make spark or fire an injector... Transfer the guts from the distributor of the donor engine. I bet some crafty 914'r could make their engine run. Retain the test port in the donor harness to read and code errors.
I'm putting a 1300 GTI twin cam Suzuki Swift engine in a 1959 Austin Healey. I stripped the harness of all the crap that doesn't make spark or fire the injectors or run the distributor. I'll let you know if I can get it running. It's a slow process for me. I aalways have too much on my plate.
Attached image(s)
Posted by: sww914 Jun 5 2009, 12:27 AM
Junkyard Subaru parts look interesting...
Posted by: banger Jun 5 2009, 02:17 AM
Most modern fuel injection systems are tuned to the engine that they were built for. This would make it a bit more difficult to fit to a type 4. Also most newer fuel injection uses a mass air flow meter, instead of manifold pressure. This would mean that you would need to bring the intakes from both sides of the engine together, and feed them through 1 MAF. It could be done, but I think you would spend far more time and money trying to get something from the junk yard to work than to get megasquirt or something similar. Keep in mind that any fuel injection system will need to be tuned, and even a junkyard system may require a $250 programmer, whereas the megasquirt can be programmed with just a pc.
Posted by: lotus_65 Jun 5 2009, 06:03 AM
what cam are you running?
i've been thinking about this too...
Posted by: edwin Jun 5 2009, 06:46 AM
if you have webber manifold then bmw bike throttle boddies work great.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/BMW-K100RS-K100-THROTTLE-BODY-BODIES-FUEL- RAIL_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp3286Q2em20Q2el1116QQhashZitem3ef1e2b404QQitemZ27
0346138628QQptZMotorcyclesQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories
k100 throttle boddies. similar spacing to webber and around about 40mm from memory. will flow better than carbs as they have nothing inside them. injector ports built in but injectors will be too small. generaly find something with similar size engine and power to what you have now and you will get cose to the mark. junkyards never charge much for them anyway.
couple of guys here in aus use Gotech efi which has close loop control of fuel system which makes it much less of a hassle tuning. they are a south african company who started doing vw golfs and have a fair following of aircooled stuff now which is handy for base maps.
other brand ecus include Microtech, haltech and autronic. have to give the local produce a good word dont i.
if you run electronic poinst replacement then it is easyish to trigger but crank/cam trigger can be more accurate depending on how it is done.
many options out there.
cheers
edwin
Posted by: Gary Jun 5 2009, 08:19 AM
Hey Edwin - do you have the center-to-center spacing and outside diameter? I'd imagine I'd need to find someone with a mill or water cutter to make an adapter plate.
Posted by: Gint Jun 5 2009, 08:22 AM
One of the main points of this exercise is to eliminate the expensive stock parts.
The ECU setup is going to eat up most of your budget, so you're going to need to use as many stock components as possible. The TPS is not compatible with any new system. Throttle bodies will be out of your price range, and without a bunch of R&D, stock FI setup will be your best bet.
Yeah, I know. The major expense seems to be the intake and TBs.
i've been thinking about this too...
No idea and the cam was the only thing I couldn't find in PO doco was cam info. I assume it's stock though. Sure doesn't feel too wild.
Posted by: rhodyguy Jun 5 2009, 08:47 AM
vw (jetta, golf, sirroco, etc) CIS. ed morrow used the system (audi version) on his turbo car. you can prob pick up a complete running car for your target price rather than piecing out of a junk yard. on the 85' jetta we had, the f.i. never gave us one ounce of trouble in over 270k miles. don't know the excact mileage as the odometer quit.
k
Posted by: toon1 Jun 5 2009, 09:04 AM
One of the main points of this exercise is to eliminate the expensive stock parts.
The ECU setup is going to eat up most of your budget, so you're going to need to use as many stock components as possible. The TPS is not compatible with any new system. Throttle bodies will be out of your price range, and without a bunch of R&D, stock FI setup will be your best bet.
Yeah, I know. The major expense seems to be the intake and TBs.
i've been thinking about this too...
No idea and the cam was the only thing I couldn't find in PO doco was cam info. I assume it's stock though. Sure doesn't feel too wild.
Again, your carbs can be used as TB's, change the manifolds for a pair that has inj. ports. Or sell what you have to buy TB's
A stock induction can be had for a fairly low price a will work fine.
you can get away with NOT using a TPS but they are cheap and easy to retrofit to the stock TB.
There was a suggestion to get an MS2 they are great units but that drives the cost up almost double.
For your app. , the MS1 is more than plenty and will give you the opputunity to run spark later. ask me how I know( MS1,V3.0 running MS&SE with a 36-1 trigger wheel and a Ford EDIS coil, BTDT, it's in my sig.).
Your original goal is to do it for $500 or less, simple answer is , yes you can.
Posted by: Gint Jun 5 2009, 09:11 AM
A stock induction can be had for a fairly low price a will work fine.
you can get away with NOT using a TPS but they are cheap and easy to retrofit to the stock TB.
There was a suggestion to get an MS2 they are great units but that drives the cost up almost double.
For your app. , the MS1 is more than plenty and will give you the opputunity to run spark later. ask me how I know( MS1,V3.0 running MS&SE with a 36-1 trigger wheel and a Ford EDIS coil, BTDT, it's in my sig.).
Your original goal is to do it for $500 or less, simple answer is , yes you can.
Manifolds for 1.8 heads with injector ports? Where exactly? And cheap...
BTW, once again this is on 1.8 heads, not 2.0 units. Some of the talk here about using stock parts seems to be related to D-Jet and I would need to use L-Jet stuff if I wanted go that route.
Posted by: tat2dphreak Jun 5 2009, 09:40 AM
not necessarily... the 1.8 heads have the same bolt ups as a 1.7, so a 1.7 Djet's parts would bolt up to your 1.8 heads...
I thought I saw someone take carb manifolds, and mount taller towers on them and mount the injectors in the manifold, using the stacks as the throtle body. looked pretty sweet, too, looks of carbs but running of the FI...
if the Megasquirt replaces the MPS, I might be able to figure it out.. maybe next year tho... I want to DRIVE my car this year
Posted by: biosurfer1 Jun 5 2009, 09:49 AM
Wayne, you mean something like this?
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=93207&hl=
Posted by: rick 918-S Jun 5 2009, 10:02 AM
Most modern fuel injection systems are tuned to the engine that they were built for. This would make it a bit more difficult to fit to a type 4. Also most newer fuel injection uses a mass air flow meter, instead of manifold pressure. This would mean that you would need to bring the intakes from both sides of the engine together, and feed them through 1 MAF. It could be done, but I think you would spend far more time and money trying to get something from the junk yard to work than to get megasquirt or something similar. Keep in mind that any fuel injection system will need to be tuned, and even a junkyard system may require a $250 programmer, whereas the megasquirt can be programmed with just a pc.
Doesn't the type IV have a single TB to common runners now? Replace it with the TB from the junker along with the injectors, MAS, O2 sensor and ECM,Transfer the dist guts and fire it up. If you use everything, the sensors on late model stuff will fatten or lean the fuel via the O2 Sensor right?
Maybe..?? I'm an old school carb guy. Give me three Holley's or 2 center squirters and I can make it run in the 12's. Injection...
If your just replacing injection with injection and the cam is correct for injection, (short lift long duration) I can't help thinking this would work. There are some very smart injection systems built by really smart guys for mass production autos. I think as long as the distributor works the rest of the system would self adjust.
Posted by: Gint Jun 5 2009, 10:33 AM
I thought I saw someone take carb manifolds, and mount taller towers on them and mount the injectors in the manifold, using the stacks as the throtle body. looked pretty sweet, too, looks of carbs but running of the FI...
if the Megasquirt replaces the MPS, I might be able to figure it out.. maybe next year tho... I want to DRIVE my car this year
Forgot about that 1.7 junk. D'oh!
There isn't a readily available manifold that comes with injector ports. I just replied to Andy's ad though telling him I'll take the ones he had made. Kinda spaced that too until now. As for using carbs for TBs, of course it could be done. And the pics you saw could have been something like Jenvey TB's also which are very expensive. I recall someone on the board here with a set of them installed.
Edit. Like this: http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=53733&
Posted by: turboman808 Jun 5 2009, 10:40 AM
megasquirt with some motorcycle throttlebodies
Posted by: SirAndy Jun 5 2009, 10:41 AM
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=93207
Btw, i also have a spare set of 40 IDF dual webers you can have. I already started to take off all the fuel related parts so i could use them as throttle bodies.
That way, you can use readily available air cleaners and a good linkage. All you need to do is plug all the fuel related passages.
Andy
Posted by: Gint Jun 5 2009, 10:51 AM
That way, you can use readily available air cleaners and a good linkage. All you need to do is plug all the fuel related passages.
AndyTanxalot!
Got your PM. Done. Throw 'em in the box with the manifolds please.
Posted by: tat2dphreak Jun 5 2009, 10:54 AM
Wayne, you mean something like this?
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=93207&hl=
yep... I think they had tall towers and didn't use the carbs... but it's been a while, and I'm old
Posted by: tat2dphreak Jun 5 2009, 10:56 AM
I thought I saw someone take carb manifolds, and mount taller towers on them and mount the injectors in the manifold, using the stacks as the throtle body. looked pretty sweet, too, looks of carbs but running of the FI...
if the Megasquirt replaces the MPS, I might be able to figure it out.. maybe next year tho... I want to DRIVE my car this year
Forgot about that 1.7 junk. D'oh!
There isn't a readily available manifold that comes with injector ports. I just replied to Andy's add though telling him I'll take the ones he had made. Kinda spaced that too until now. As for using carbs for TBs, of course it could be done. And the pics you saw could have been something like Jenvey TB's also which are very expensive. I recall someone on the board here with a set of them installed.
Edit. Like this: http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=53733&
YES! those were the ones I saw... I knew I didn't dream that!
Posted by: Gint Jun 5 2009, 11:00 AM
They're not carbs though. They're expensive TBs. I think Andy's stuff will work out OK. We'll see.
Posted by: rick 918-S Jun 5 2009, 11:27 AM
Just spoke with a mechanic friend. He has a complete injection on a Saab Turbo. drum roll please.... Price.... Free He confirmed this should run any 4 cylinder and also mentioned there are a ton of these and Volvo units in the salvage yards so parts should not be an issue. A hall effect distributor and block temp sensor are a couple of the items he mentioned that would need to be added for the system to function. I have a 1.7 under the bench just waiting for an experiment like this...
Posted by: nein14 Jun 5 2009, 11:44 AM
CIS injection from a VW GTI w/ Bus runners , plenum and trottle body and KKK-26 turbo from a Audi 5000 S very reliable going on 9 years now 
Posted by: Gint Jun 5 2009, 11:51 AM
Keep 'em comin gang! This is great.
Posted by: SirAndy Jun 5 2009, 12:28 PM
Keep 'em comin gang! This is great.
My initial plan was to use a common plenum with just one throttle body like on modern FI systems.
I took a 3.2L plenum and it's almost a perfect match to the intake runners pictured above. The bolt holes are only off by a bit.
The plan was to cut off two of the six runners from the plenum and weld it shut and use the stock 3.2L throttle body.
However, the 3.2L plenum proofed to be expensive, so i decided to try the individual TBs instead using 40 IDF webers ...
Andy
Posted by: rick 918-S Jun 5 2009, 12:38 PM
Keep 'em comin gang! This is great.
My initial plan was to use a common plenum with just one throttle body like on modern FI systems.
I took a 3.2L plenum and it's almost a perfect match to the intake runners pictured above. The bolt holes are only off by a bit.
The plan was to cut off two of the six runners from the plenum and weld it shut and use the stock 3.2L throttle body.
However, the 3.2L plenum proofed to be expensive, so i decided to try the individual TBs instead using 40 IDF webers ...
AndyThat's cool!
Posted by: banger Jun 5 2009, 03:55 PM
The problem with using watercooled stuff is exactly that.. It is for water cooled, and assumes that the engine is considered warmed up at 170-180 degrees. This is still pretty cold for an air cooled motor. You would still need an O2 sensor for the system to work, but since they only use narrowband sensors, and have limited adjustment for the fuel map, you would quickly end up with a check engine light (if you bothered to wire one in)
Just spoke with a mechanic friend. He has a complete injection on a Saab Turbo. drum roll please.... Price.... Free
He confirmed this should run any 4 cylinder and also mentioned there are a ton of these and Volvo units in the salvage yards so parts should not be an issue. A hall effect distributor and block temp sensor are a couple of the items he mentioned that would need to be added for the system to function. I have a 1.7 under the bench just waiting for an experiment like this...Posted by: JWest Jun 5 2009, 04:44 PM
I've got a couple of Megasquirt 1 kits. You can have one if you want to go that path.
Posted by: Gint Jun 5 2009, 05:10 PM
That would be awesome James. I can't take it for free though. I'll send a PM to discuss.
Posted by: wobbletop Jun 5 2009, 10:32 PM
Sorry to thread hi-jack... I'm a newb, but I have a 3.0L that has been converted to carbs. I'd love to be able to convert it to a modern FI system, but wouldn't have a clue where to start.
Anyone have any links that would get me started? Should I be looking in the 911 forums instead?
Thanks.
Posted by: zymurgist Jun 6 2009, 07:26 AM
You might want to start a new thread on that topic...
I'm no expert on the Porsche flat-6, but you need to find out (if you don't already know) what cams are installed on your engine. I'm pretty sure that CIS cams are different from cams that would be used with carbs.
Posted by: Gint Jun 6 2009, 08:24 AM
A little more specialized and I'd like to keep this thread focused on the 4 cylinder.
Posted by: DNHunt Jun 6 2009, 10:00 AM
I've now worked with MS1, MS2 and SDS. I've now run all tree for quite awhile over the years and all three have survived long road trips (2000 + miles each). The cheapest is MS1 and it will work pretty darn well. I ran it doing fuel only and used a Pertronix triggering an MSD 6a for ignition on a 2056. I enjoyed that. I felt it had more low end torque but, I couldn't prove it. I did have it dynoed and the guy who did that coaxed a couple more hp out of it so, I think road tuning probably leaves a little performance on the table.
As McMark said earlier, the harness is the real challenge with either MS. When I had failures and I did like crapping out in rush hour traffic a couple of times it was always harness or connector related. Once I broke a wire and the other time the connector came loose. There is shielding that needs to be done and I think MS is more susceptible to electromagnetic interference than SDS, but, it can be overcome.
My only complaint with the system is the correction for intake air temperature. It is extrapolated from 3 resistance, temperature pairs and I found that the air fuel mixtures varied with temperature because of that. The intake air temp in my setup would really vary as the sensor was in the plenum in the stock location and it was subject to heat soak. So, whether the correction was off because of the location of the sensor or the table generated by the program, it was off.
MS, either one, is a tinker's dream. I found I was always getting my laptop out and messing with it cause there was always something new to try. That's not necessarily bad but you got to like that kind of stuff.
If I wanted cheap, I'd find a 2 liter intake, get 1.8 injectors cause they have much better connectors and new connectors to fit them are available (they will put out plenty of fuel). I'd move the intake air sensor to the snorkel. I'd go to a pick and pull and find a workable TPS. I'd use the stock AAR for warmup. I'd buy a MS1 kit and a relay board and start soldering. Then I would schedule a bunch of time to tinker with it and tune it. It will cost more than you plan on unless you work with someone who has done this before. Plan on some dyno time with a tuner if you can.
I think the trade off is your money or your time. I think MS works and probably just as well as most systems, I just think it is way more work.
Dave
Posted by: Gint Jun 6 2009, 10:42 PM
Thanks Dave. Harness huh... I've heard that twice now. I hadn't thought about it that much yet. Hmmm...
I can be anal about wiring. I don't love it, but I can do it. At least if I'm building my own I'll know what I have.
Posted by: sww914 Jun 6 2009, 10:51 PM
Thanks for starting a great thread. Long overdue in hindsight.
Posted by: Phoenix-MN Jun 7 2009, 08:29 AM
How about the MicroSquirt system
http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/microsquirt-c-35.html
Posted by: r_towle Jun 7 2009, 10:06 AM
Sorry to thread hi-jack... I'm a newb, but I have a 3.0L that has been converted to carbs. I'd love to be able to convert it to a modern FI system, but wouldn't have a clue where to start.
Anyone have any links that would get me started? Should I be looking in the 911 forums instead?
Thanks.
Contact Autosport Engineering in Stow MA.
A porsche shop.
They have designed and built a bolt on setup to bring 911's back to FI.
Rich
Posted by: lotus_65 Jun 7 2009, 10:38 AM
Sorry to thread hi-jack... I'm a newb, but I have a 3.0L that has been converted to carbs. I'd love to be able to convert it to a modern FI system, but wouldn't have a clue where to start.
Anyone have any links that would get me started? Should I be looking in the 911 forums instead?
Thanks.
Contact Autosport Engineering in Stow MA.
A porsche shop.
They have designed and built a bolt on setup to bring 911's back to FI.
Rich
thats cool,
too bad the return probably isn't there to do it for the T-IV's!
Posted by: puff adder Jun 7 2009, 10:44 AM
I found this company while looking for ITB's for my car.
Modular, can be configured for just about anything, and a LOT less than anything else available.
They're called "extrudabody". They also have intersting manifolds and adaptors.
I posted in the link thread also by accident.
Posted by: crash914 Jun 7 2009, 11:05 AM
I have also ran mine as a piggy back system on the stock 2L set up.
fuel only, stock manifold and intake, I made new connectors for the FI injectors and plugged into the ms. I don't remember what I did about the tps, either i mounted a new one in place of the stock or did not use it. Ran it this way for some time. no major problems were encountered. if I did, i could just plug back in the stock system...easy...
Posted by: Cevan Jun 7 2009, 11:16 AM
If I wanted cheap, I'd find a 2 liter intake, get 1.8 injectors cause they have much better connectors and new connectors to fit them are available (they will put out plenty of fuel). I'd move the intake air sensor to the snorkel. I'd go to a pick and pull and find a workable TPS. I'd use the stock AAR for warmup. I'd buy a MS1 kit and a relay board and start soldering. Then I would schedule a bunch of time to tinker with it and tune it. It will cost more than you plan on unless you work with someone who has done this before. Plan on some dyno time with a tuner if you can.
I think the trade off is your money or your time. I think MS works and probably just as well as most systems, I just think it is way more work.
Dave
In that case, why not just find a working L-Jet setup. They can't be more than $250-300. ECU's and AFMs rarely fail, so if you're using 1.8 injectors, TPS and an AAR, what else is left but the harness?
Posted by: charliew Jun 7 2009, 11:26 AM
It's the programming for the different motor configurations that the aftermarket stuff works better over factory ecus. You can always improve performance if the individual motor is custom tuned.
Posted by: Gint Jun 8 2009, 08:01 AM
So, I'm thinking that the way to do this might be something like this. Just spitballin here...
- phaseI would be a homebuilt ECU and a bastardized stock setup. That would get the car up and running on FI the cheapest and quickest. It would also start a learning curve for me that I could use for the later phases.
- phaseII (tinker phase) could add different components to educate me a little more and keep the car on the road because I could revert back to the running system if need be.
- phaseIII could add spiffy TB/manifold stuff and really customize the system.
Posted by: Gint Jun 8 2009, 08:02 AM
http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/microsquirt-c-35.html
How about it? Anyone have any experience with it?
Posted by: underthetire Jun 8 2009, 09:41 AM
Think it's pretty much the same as the MS2. Just in a smaller package. Not repairable at home because of the surface mount components. I'm running MS2 with coil control. Its takes playing around with it and be prepared to learn. You can not just solder it together and go. Download the manual now and read up on it. Then decide. I did mine in stages as well, first just fuel, now i'm doing ignition. Next step is a modern throttle body with air regulator control for the idle circuit. I am using all GM sensors ( most of it is Bosch anyway) with the stock 1.7 injectors. Get the MS2 or Micro for stock injectors, you won't need the resistors for the low impedance injectors. Also the MS2 gives you a lot more options for ignition. The wire harness is available or I made my own in a few hours.
Be prepared for additional costs either way, you will need connectors for the sensors and the sensors themselves. If you need help with connectors, just PM me, my neighbor has 5 five gallon cans full of stock GM connectors. I'm sure we could dig something up.
Good luck
Posted by: jd74914 Jun 8 2009, 11:22 AM
I've used Microsquirt. Its not too difficult to learn, but as stated you cannot change out components. I don't really have experience with any other PEFI so I have nothing to base the experience off of, but I would definately use it again.
The only part I didn't like was that the computer could only support 2 fuel and ignition outputs. I would have prefered 4 for sequential injection/ignition, but batch fire works fine too. I used it on a bike motor, and the only other annoying feature was that I couldn't get it to read the stock Honda cam position sensor. Since you are limited to batch firing anyways that wasn't a big deal. It only took 1 or 2 more rotations to sync.
Posted by: McMark Jun 8 2009, 12:44 PM
The system http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=86244 uses MicroSquirt. I LOVE it.
The motor it's on runs, but still needs a few tweaks.
Posted by: Gint Jun 8 2009, 06:58 PM
The motor it's on runs, but still needs a few tweaks.
How's that coming anyway?
Thanks for tossing that link back out. I hadn't seen it in a while and I just read all of it again.
Dumb Q-time... gotta start somewhere. Is MAP different than MP? Or to put what's in my head another way, is there some difference between modern MAP sensor and a D-Jet MPS? If so, what is it. Briefly...
Posted by: McMark Jun 8 2009, 07:11 PM
The motor runs, but I need to get a stock CHT sensor for it and do some tuning. But it's proven effective.
The difference between 'modern' MAP and D-Jet MPS is electronics. Both in the sensor and in the ECU. But both are looking at manifold vacuum and so in that sense they are identical, they both take a vacuum signal and ouput an electrical signal.
Posted by: r_towle Jun 8 2009, 07:14 PM
The motor it's on runs, but still needs a few tweaks.
How's that coming anyway?
Thanks for tossing that link back out. I hadn't seen it in a while and I just read all of it again.
Dumb Q-time... gotta start somewhere. Is MAP different than MP? Or to put what's in my head another way, is there some difference between modern MAP sensor and a D-Jet MPS? If so, what is it. Briefly...
Yes at a high level its the same thing.
MAP is manifold air pressure.
MP is manifold pressure
MPS is a manifold pressure sensor that is measuring manifold air pressure.
Overall, there are two things you need to measure.
Air and fuel.
There are two known ways to measure air in FI systems...thus two schools of thought.
One is air flow (Ljet Air flow meter) or a modern Mass Air Flow Sensor.
The other
Manifold pressure.
Djet is just one of these systems. Ford uses manifold pressure and drag racers swear by it, versus air flow, for obvious reasons...they would blow a mass air flow sensor apart.
Modern systems use a solid state manifold pressure sensor that looks like a cigarette lighter...its small.
I have had quite a few discussions that never got off the ground about mapping the 914 MPS input and output, basically reverse engineer it...and then get a modern solid state pressure sensor built for us...and it would fit inside the MPS housing to retain the looks of the car....but again...never went anywhere with it...to much work, not enough market.
You should be looking at Ford escorts and other 4 cylinder 2.0 liter manifold pressure FI systems that are tuneable....The tuning bit is important.
For the money you are looking to spend...do research on all the online tuner forums and find a system that is well understood...then get a small system from a junkyard...
The feedback for any fuel system is engine temp, and O2 sensors.
Engine temp is to ensure the motor is hot enough, but not to hot.
Our motors temps are alot different than a water cooled car...so that is where some tuning needs to happen.
The input range needs to be changed...
O2 sensors.
Because a watercooled car can run hotter without failing...they burn cleaner.
Again, you need to be able to tune that input range.
Rich
Posted by: Gint Jun 8 2009, 07:20 PM
The difference between 'modern' MAP and D-Jet MPS is electronics. Both in the sensor and in the ECU. But both are looking at manifold vacuum and so in that sense they are identical, they both take a vacuum signal and ouput an electrical signal.
What are you using?
Posted by: McMark Jun 8 2009, 07:34 PM
If it ain't D-Jet, it ain't MPS. Think of the MPS as a specialized MAP sensor built only for D-Jet. I've never heard of a MP sensor and would suspect that it's just another name for MAP sensors.
MicroSquirt/SDS/Motec/etc all use MAP sensors. MicroSquirt is compatible with MAF sensors as well which are a completely different sensors and are more accurate.
Posted by: r_towle Jun 8 2009, 07:40 PM
MAF sensors as well which are a completely different sensors and are more accurate.
Very arguable and from what I have read...not really. Its a religious thing...probably a patent licensing thing also.
Air pressure is still widely used.
Air pressure demonstrates load also which Air flow does not.
Both use a throttle position switch, but Air pressure can adjust the fuel map faster when loaded...thus another reason that drag racers like it.
Rich
Posted by: sww914 Jun 8 2009, 08:04 PM
I'd argue that you need to measure temperature and barometric pressure too, in a perfect setup.
Posted by: Gint Jun 9 2009, 07:25 AM
Think of the MPS as a specialized MAP sensor built only for D-Jet. I've never heard of a MP sensor and would suspect that it's just another name for MAP sensors.MicroSquirt/SDS/Motec/etc all use MAP sensors. MicroSquirt is compatible with MAF sensors as well which are a completely different sensors and are more accurate.
Thanks Mark.
Maybe I can educate myself one day at a time.
Another Q to no one in particular. I'm going to assume that all of the peeps that say MS1 doesn't need an MPS are now using some other sort of MAP sensor then? If so, what are you using and if not, why and how. Also, the same has been said of the TPS (you don't need it). Why? How?Thanks!
Posted by: tat2dphreak Jun 9 2009, 08:15 AM
I'd argue that you need to measure temperature and barometric pressure too, in a perfect setup.
we don't deal in perfection around here, see... we drive 914s
Posted by: McMark Jun 9 2009, 12:31 PM
Before I start this post, a definition. When I say modern fuel injection, I mean MegaSquirt/SDS/MicroSquirt/Motronic (probably)/etc.
Soooooo, you can usually set up modern FI to use either of two metering systems, Alpha-N and MAP. All FI systems are trying to 'guess' the amount of air entering the system so that the fuel can be 'matched' to that air.
Alpha-N guesses by using a TPS to know how far open the throttle is. By knowing how far open the throttle is, you can approximate how much air is getting in. If you don't have, or don't want a MAP sensor, you can use pure Alpha-N systems and get them to work fine.
MAP guesses by measuring manifold vacuum and translating that value into an air quantity. MAP sensors need a common vacuum source from all intake tracks, or from a common plenum. MAP sensors can get 'confused' by cams with valve overlap which make less vacuum at idle. So with those cams, you won't get a nice 'usable' sensor reading until higher up in the RPM range.
The solution most modern FI systems use is a blending. If you have a wild cam, you can use Alpha-N at low RPM since MAP isn't getting a signal, and then at some RPM value start using MAP as your main sensor. Those blending systems are not usually an all-or-nothing system. AFAIK, in MegaTune you can set a 'blending percentage' which will average the output of both systems at a variable bias. So at idle you can use 80% Alpha-N and 20% MAP, and you can customize that bias up the RPM range.
Okay, that post is long enough. Keep 'em coming, Gint.
Posted by: Rotary'14 Jun 9 2009, 01:48 PM
Think of the MPS as a specialized MAP sensor built only for D-Jet. I've never heard of a MP sensor and would suspect that it's just another name for MAP sensors.MicroSquirt/SDS/Motec/etc all use MAP sensors. MicroSquirt is compatible with MAF sensors as well which are a completely different sensors and are more accurate.
Thanks Mark.
Maybe I can educate myself one day at a time.
Another Q to no one in particular. I'm going to assume that all of the peeps that say MS1 doesn't need an MPS are now using some other sort of MAP sensor then? If so, what are you using and if not, why and how. Also, the same has been said of the TPS (you don't need it). Why? How?Thanks!
Hi Gint,,
MegaSquirts have an on board MAP sensor (usually) so you can omit your stock one. The amount of vacuume an engine draws is directly proportional to the load on an engine, thus it is possible to run without a TPS. Having a TPS helps with some decel tuning and stuff to make some transitions smooth.
If you do decide to build your own because of price,, think again because you need to also use a "jim-stim" to do some of the assembly steps. So the price of the jim-stim (which is a handy tool) should also be factored in to your costs. DIY or another MS vendor also sells wiring harnesses,, and one comes with the MicroSquirt, to offset the costs. I was always second guessing my own home built and that led to alot of wasted time. (Any MegaSquirt experts please drop me a PM,, I wanna hire you.)
just my .02,, I hope some of it helps you.
-Rob
Posted by: kwales Jun 9 2009, 01:49 PM
There are other ways of measiuring airflow..
Don't forget the L-jet flap and the later version with the hotwire.
The hot wire measures volume flow and could care less about air pressure or manifold pressure.
Posted by: McMark Jun 9 2009, 03:42 PM
I actually greatly prefer the remote MAP sensor of the MicroSquirt, instead of the onboard MAP of the traditional MegaSquirt. The remote MAP allows for greater flexibility in the installation.
I agree about purchasing prefabricated Mega/MicroSquirt boards. They are more expensive, but there are just too many important solder connections that can go wrong to do yourself. I'll pay a little extra for something that's assembled using modern electronics assembly techniques.
Hot wire = MAF as mentioned above. But you're right about it working better than MAP. There is a reason that most new cars use MAF.
and the L-Jet flapper box isn't really adaptable to modern FI, but is a valid air flow measurement device.
Posted by: jmill Jun 9 2009, 04:53 PM
Great topic and info.
![popcorn[1].gif](style_emoticons/default/popcorn[1].gif)
Posted by: r_towle Jun 9 2009, 05:25 PM
Gint, contact DNHunt and see if he will sell his old megasquirt system...it may be a valid place to start.
Rich
Posted by: Gint Jun 9 2009, 05:36 PM
MegaSquirts have an on board MAP sensor (usually) so you can omit your stock one. The amount of vacuume an engine draws is directly proportional to the load on an engine, thus it is possible to run without a TPS. Having a TPS helps with some decel tuning and stuff to make some transitions smooth.
If you do decide to build your own because of price,, think again because you need to also use a "jim-stim" to do some of the assembly steps. So the price of the jim-stim (which is a handy tool) should also be factored in to your costs. DIY or another MS vendor also sells wiring harnesses,, and one comes with the MicroSquirt, to offset the costs. I was always second guessing my own home built and that led to alot of wasted time. (Any MegaSquirt experts please drop me a PM,, I wanna hire you.)
just my .02,, I hope some of it helps you.
-Rob
As for the MegaSquirt's onboard MAP sensor, how is that manifested? I can understand the ECU having the control circuit for MAP, but doesn't there need to be a sensor at the air inlet/plenum/etc...?
As for the costs, I could pop for the full monty if I chose too. I'm not destitute. But I kinda want to do it cheaply at first to learn. In the end I'll probably spend a fortune.
Posted by: jhadler Jun 9 2009, 05:46 PM
As for the MegaSquirt's onboard MAP sensor, how is that manifested? I can understand the ECU having the control circuit for MAP, but doesn't there need to be a sensor at the air inlet/plenum/etc...?
Just the like the D-Jet MPS, the sensor only needs to be plumbed to the intake, not necessarily installed in the path. MAF sensors on the other hand need to be in the direct flow of the intake. The MAP sensor is basically reading vacuum, and a hose plumbed to the intake is quite effective.
-Josh2
Posted by: Gint Jun 9 2009, 05:51 PM
Spell it out for me. Does a vacuum line have to be plumbed to the MS ECU then?
Posted by: jhadler Jun 9 2009, 06:03 PM
Spell it out for me. Does a vacuum line have to be plumbed to the MS ECU then?
Exactly.
Which is why I think McMark likes the MicroSquirt. The MegaSquirt would need to be installed in the engine bay so the vacuum line isn't too long. The MicroSquirt can be more remote if desired.
-Josh2
Posted by: r_towle Jun 9 2009, 06:35 PM
Spell it out for me. Does a vacuum line have to be plumbed to the MS ECU then?
Exactly.
Which is why I think McMark likes the MicroSquirt. The MegaSquirt would need to be installed in the engine bay so the vacuum line isn't too long. The MicroSquirt can be more remote if desired.
-Josh2
That is more like it...I did not know that.
I would go for the microsquirt in that case...you can get the ECU inside the passenger compartment to keep it safe and dry.
Rich
Posted by: Rick_Eberle Jun 9 2009, 06:55 PM
Spell it out for me. Does a vacuum line have to be plumbed to the MS ECU then?
Exactly.
Which is why I think McMark likes the MicroSquirt. The MegaSquirt would need to be installed in the engine bay so the vacuum line isn't too long. The MicroSquirt can be more remote if desired.
-Josh2
That is more like it...I did not know that.
I would go for the microsquirt in that case...you can get the ECU inside the passenger compartment to keep it safe and dry.
Rich
No, Megasquirt does NOT go in the engine bay. You run a vac line to it. In my case, the ECU is in the console under the dash, and the vac line runs as part of the wiring loom for it. The length of the line makes very little difference.
Posted by: Rotary'14 Jun 9 2009, 08:03 PM
Spell it out for me. Does a vacuum line have to be plumbed to the MS ECU then?
Exactly.
Which is why I think McMark likes the MicroSquirt. The MegaSquirt would need to be installed in the engine bay so the vacuum line isn't too long. The MicroSquirt can be more remote if desired.
-Josh2
Just some FYI,, you can add a remote MAP sensor to the MegaSquirts,, any one of them. If you do add an additional one, the barometeric correction can be constantly monitored with the onboard MAP. vs Barometeric correction only on key on, one time. Ive read that a really long vac line does not cause a significant delay in your MAP signal.
-Rob
Posted by: Gint Jun 9 2009, 08:27 PM
Excellent... thanks!
Wait till you see what I have for a question tomorrow.
I found this to be a helpful explanation of Alpha-N
http://www.bayareamotorsport.com/alphan.html
Posted by: McMark Jun 10 2009, 02:58 AM
I also like the MicroSquirt because it's sealed as well, so it can go in the engine bay.
Posted by: Gint Jun 10 2009, 07:08 AM
New questions generated from yesterday's dicsussion:
- Does anyone have any pics of a MS1 module built up? And in particular the vacuum port for the MAP sensor?
- Can MS1 receive an input rpm signal from say, a Mallory or any other ignition that it's not controlling?
TIA
Posted by: jhadler Jun 10 2009, 12:02 PM
New questions generated from yesterday's dicsussion:
- Does anyone have any pics of a MS1 module built up? And in particular the vacuum port for the MAP sensor?
- Can MS1 receive an input rpm signal from say, a Mallory or any other ignition that it's not controlling?
TIA
Gint,
I think a whole lot of questions can be answered at diyautotune.com
They've certainly got pictures that will show you what and where the vacuum port is.
-Josh2
Posted by: McMark Jun 10 2009, 01:07 PM
You can see the little black vacuum port in the foreground. This is not the only layout, so there are some that don't look exactly like this. But this gives you an idea of how it work.
MS can get a signal from a Mallory or other ignition system, but it's a DIRTY signal. I was absolutely blown away when I saw a crank fire signal compared to all the nasty tach signals I had been used to. People are using tach signals to 'feed' their MS and it works. I wouldn't recommend it to anyone since it's just another source of possible hiccups and headaches. And crank fire is so easy to do.
All stock 914 injectors are low impedance. All modern FI systems require high impedance. You can 'tweak' the stock injectors to work by installing a resistor pack inline with the injectors to 'fake it'. Which works fine, but I don't like having that extra piece of electronics hanging out somewhere. The resistors get quite hot. I have a source for high impedance injectors that fit stock manifolds, but they're well out of your initial budget.
Attached image(s)
Posted by: Gint Jun 10 2009, 02:35 PM
I think a whole lot of questions can be answered at diyautotune.com
They've certainly got pictures that will show you what and where the vacuum port is.
-Josh2
I sure that's probably true. But where's the fun in that.
I'd rather chat it up with my pals here. And I'll bet there are a good number of people here on World with more than a casual interest in this thread. I appreciate the feedback guys. Maybe we'll get a EEType (
EE, ET, Etype) to tell us how the standard tach signal could be filtered and cleaned up a little. It may even be pretty easy.
Posted by: McMark Jun 10 2009, 02:41 PM
Jeff Keyzer was who pushed me to go crank fire. I'll send him a PM and try and get him in on this chat.
Posted by: Gint Jun 10 2009, 02:47 PM
Jeff Keyzer was who pushed me to go crank fire. I'll send him a PM and try and get him in on this chat.Perfect...
Posted by: jkeyzer Jun 10 2009, 03:16 PM
Mark summoned me so here's my $0.02!
As Mark and I found out, MICROsquirt was not made to accept a straight coil trigger signal on the tach input. We ran into a lot of problems with this, including actual physical damage of the Microsquirt due to the high voltage pulses that are present on the "low voltage" side of the coil (the primary). After messing with various resistors, capacitors, and other stuff for a week, we gave up, and that's why Mark is now an advocate of crankfire ignition.
MEGAsquirt, on the other hand, supposedly can handle a tach signal directly. However, I don't recommend it for a couple reasons:
1. You are introducing a bunch of electrical noise to the Megasquirt by plumbing a very noisy ignition coil primary wire into the MS box. From reading the MS forums this can be problematic.
2. It is very clear that the MS community in general has moved away from direct coil triggering, probably because of #1. That isn't to say you can't make it work, just that you are going against the technical evolution of the MS FI system. It seems like everyone is using crankfire now.
My Megasquirt setup, which has been running flawlessly for over 4 years now, uses a setup that avoids a lot of the problems with direct coil triggering, but without using crankfire. I added an MSD ignition to the car, and I trigger the Megasquirt off of the 12V tach output terminal on the MSD. The MSD tach output signal is very clean and free of a lot of the ignition noise you get by hooking directly to the coil. This allows me to get a good tach signal without resorting to crankfire. I am essentially using the MSD as a buffer for the tach signal, plus I get the benefits of CDI as a side benefit.
You could probably use another brand or model CDI style ignition as long as it has a tach output pin like the MSD.
That's not to say that we couldn't come up with a circuit that would be cheaper than the MSD and accomplish the same buffering effect, but in my case it was the easiest option since it uses off the shelf parts.
Hope this helps...
Posted by: jmill Jun 10 2009, 03:27 PM
I'm loving this thread. 
The only reason I'm not jumping into FI is that it's my understanding that MAP and MAF limits you to one intake and your cam profile. Alpha N seems ideal for big cams and multiple intakes but you need to program everything off of a TPS. Is there an easy way to run a crazy cam and multiple throttle bodies without being a fuel programing wizard?
Posted by: underthetire Jun 10 2009, 03:37 PM
Again, forget the MS1. Go MS2. If you plan on using stock injectors, the price of the large resistors required on the MS1 to raise the impedance will offset the cost. As far as the direct coil hookup, mine works ok, but I do think there is noise in the tach line. I am currently changing to a shielded cable for this which should eliminate the noise until I can pull the engine to do my crank trigger. I run my MS2 in the engine bay, but I don't drive it in the rain. A plastic cover would be nice to protect it however.
Posted by: jkeyzer Jun 10 2009, 03:40 PM
You can do it with Megasquirt, and people do. There are lots of ways to deal with big cams, and it all comes down to how much time you are willing to spend learning about EFI and playing with all of the settings.
I have experience running what I consider to be a pretty wild cam (70-90kpa vacuum at idle), and the only side effect was a choppy, unruly idle. Drivability above idle was fine. This was with the same MS setup I have run on a stock 1.7 and a mild cam 2056.
Posted by: underthetire Jun 10 2009, 03:44 PM
Multiple throttle bodies no problem, just one TPS though. You would need to make sure the opening and closing are in sync. I don't see a big problem with a crazy cam myself. You set up base and max vacuum anyway. A wideband o2 sensor would make fuel programming very easy I would think.
Posted by: jhadler Jun 10 2009, 03:45 PM
I'm loving this thread.
The only reason I'm not jumping into FI is that it's my understanding that MAP and MAF limits you to one intake and your cam profile. Alpha N seems ideal for big cams and multiple intakes but you need to program everything off of a TPS. Is there an easy way to run a crazy cam and multiple throttle bodies without being a fuel programing wizard?
I think with multiple intakes, as long as you run some form of vacuum plenum, and it doesn't have to be large, the MAP sensor can read from there. Then you're getting the average from the multiple intakes.
If you're running ITB's, drill and tap the manifolds if the throttles don't already have vacuum ports, and connect them all to a vacuum plenum or reservoir.
Granted, I've not done this, but it seems like it would work. Or... Am I way off base here?
-Josh2
Posted by: Gint Jun 10 2009, 04:04 PM
As Mark and I found out, MICROsquirt was not made to accept a straight coil trigger signal on the tach input. We ran into a lot of problems with this, including actual physical damage of the Microsquirt due to the high voltage pulses that are present on the "low voltage" side of the coil (the primary). After messing with various resistors, capacitors, and other stuff for a week, we gave up, and that's why Mark is now an advocate of crankfire ignition.
MEGAsquirt, on the other hand, supposedly can handle a tach signal directly. However, I don't recommend it for a couple reasons:
1. You are introducing a bunch of electrical noise to the Megasquirt by plumbing a very noisy ignition coil primary wire into the MS box. From reading the MS forums this can be problematic.
2. It is very clear that the MS community in general has moved away from direct coil triggering, probably because of #1. That isn't to say you can't make it work, just that you are going against the technical evolution of the MS FI system. It seems like everyone is using crankfire now.
My Megasquirt setup, which has been running flawlessly for over 4 years now, uses a setup that avoids a lot of the problems with direct coil triggering, but without using crankfire. I added an MSD ignition to the car, and I trigger the Megasquirt off of the 12V tach output terminal on the MSD. The MSD tach output signal is very clean and free of a lot of the ignition noise you get by hooking directly to the coil. This allows me to get a good tach signal without resorting to crankfire. I am essentially using the MSD as a buffer for the tach signal, plus I get the benefits of CDI as a side benefit.
You could probably use another brand or model CDI style ignition as long as it has a tach output pin like the MSD.
That's not to say that we couldn't come up with a circuit that would be cheaper than the MSD and accomplish the same buffering effect, but in my case it was the easiest option since it uses off the shelf parts.
Hope this helps...
Hiya Jeff
It certainly does help. Thanks!Can I use my MSD6AL with my current Mallory dizzy?
Posted by: jkeyzer Jun 10 2009, 04:05 PM
Gint - Yup, that's the same setup that I have!
Posted by: Gint Jun 10 2009, 04:07 PM
Posted by: Rotary'14 Jun 10 2009, 04:14 PM
Again, forget the MS1. Go MS2. If you plan on using stock injectors, the price of the large resistors required on the MS1 to raise the impedance will offset the cost. As far as the direct coil hookup, mine works ok, but I do think there is noise in the tach line. I am currently changing to a shielded cable for this which should eliminate the noise until I can pull the engine to do my crank trigger. I run my MS2 in the engine bay, but I don't drive it in the rain. A plastic cover would be nice to protect it however.
I got my resistor pack from an 86-88 Mazda RX-7,, I believe many manufacturers used the cheaper priced low resistance injectors in practically every car made from 84~92. If you find a 4 cylinder,, the resistor pack is perfect for what we want to do, and these resistor packs were designed for this application, so the heat should not affect them.
As far as ignition noise,,,,
I'm not sure of this,, but couldn't one use the signal of a pertronix for an rpm input to the MS? I'm not sure of this so take with a large grain of salt. It would be a cheaper alternative to using an MSD box if it works.
-Rob
Posted by: John Jentz Jun 10 2009, 04:16 PM
I think you should be able to use the 1.8 L-Jet resistor pack.
Posted by: tat2dphreak Jun 10 2009, 04:23 PM
there's been a lot of people to do megasquirt in the past, and maybe I'm being naive or just plain dumb, but why hasn't someone made a definitive "this is exactly what to do" for MS?
TBH this is my biggest turn off on MS, is there's a lot of things that "should work" but I haven't seen a list that says "get this, do this, and it works" and then you can fine-tune it from there, for your specific cam...
MS is very intimidating to those of us who wouldn't know where to begin... I never seem to see a real clear answer.
Posted by: Gint Jun 10 2009, 04:25 PM
That's the plan... sort of... in a roundabout way. I'm almost there.
Posted by: tat2dphreak Jun 10 2009, 04:32 PM
I would like that... everytime I try to figure these threads out I think "carbs are ok by me" at least they work and I understand them a little.
Posted by: underthetire Jun 10 2009, 04:34 PM
I'd be happy to send you my MSQ file, the numbers for the TPS sensor I intalled on the stock throttle body, the O2 sensor i'm using ( I would go wideband next time though) The airtemp sensor. (using stock CHT) My MSQ for timing looks funny, but it works. The hardest parts for me was pulling the exhaust to weld in the bung, and grinding down the throttle body shaft to fit the new TPS. Wiring was really not that hard at all. One harness and I was done. Not that my setup is perfect by any means, but it runs.
And the PALM log setup was REALLY REALLY cheap and is very cool to have in the car for monitoring. I think the palm was like 6 bucks on Ebay.
Posted by: McMark Jun 10 2009, 04:48 PM
Independent throttle bodies (ITB) can use a shared plenum to support vacuum signal for a MAP sensor. ITB with MAF would require a common air box above the ITB intakes which has the MAF mounted on it (MAF is airflow, not pressure).
Posted by: DNHunt Jun 10 2009, 07:12 PM
I'm running ITB's without a shared plenum. I tee into a single line then use a .035 MIG welding tip to quiet the vacuum signal. It works well with SDS and I suspect it would work with MS too. Simple and cheap.
I tried setting up a fast idle with a small common plenum and my engine did not like that at all. I also tried to share my vacuum line with MS II as I wanted to use MS to log for tuning. It also did not like that as the vacuum signal to SDS changed and the car ran pig rich.
Dave
Posted by: banger Jun 10 2009, 11:24 PM
With megasquirt you can actually run both MAF and MAP together. Both have their advantages and disadvantages. MAF is easier, since you are reading the actual amount of air entering the engine. With MAP, you are basically guessing how much air is entering the engine based on the manifold pressure and the efficiency of the engine. MAP based systems dont really like lumpy cams though, which limits what you can run. MAF is much better with lumpy cams. MAP is better at high rpm and high load though, which is why they have support for using both in Megasquirt.
Its difficult to have a fixed formula for megasquirt, since there are so many variables. It depends on the size of your engine, the intake that you have, exhaust, the injectors etc. But this is also the beauty of it, since you can make it work with almost any hardware.
Posted by: Gint Jun 11 2009, 03:21 PM
Quiet today...
Will stock 2.0 injectors flow enough fuel for a 2056? I even have a set of reconditioned units around here somewhere. Will they fit in a 1.7 intake manifold? Anyone know the diameter of the 1.7 and 2.0 runners? I can measure the 2.0 unit but I don't have a 1.7 handy.
Anybody have a pic or a link to a pic for a 1.8 setup?
Posted by: jkeyzer Jun 11 2009, 03:30 PM
2.0L injectors are oversized for a 2056. I use 1.7L injectors on mine and I am nowhere close to running out of fuel. If you run the numbers you'll find that 1.7L injectors are good to something like 180HP with stock fuel pressure.
Posted by: tat2dphreak Jun 11 2009, 03:31 PM
Quiet today...
Will stock 2.0 injectors flow enough fuel for a 2056? I even have a set of reconditioned units around here somewhere. Will they fit in a 1.7 intake manifold? Anyone know the diameter of the 1.7 and 2.0 runners? I can measure the 2.0 unit but I don't have a 1.7 handy.
Anybody have a pic or a link to a pic for a 1.8 setup?
I was told a complete stock setup would work fine with adjustments for a 2056, with a stock cam... which is why I bought a complete FI, but the MPS was bad, so I never installed it.
my car was carbbed before I got it... no FI parts left, so I had to find everything
Posted by: Gint Jun 11 2009, 03:42 PM
I've heard that also, but I wanted to throw it out here just to be complete.
Since I'm running 1.8 heads I'm more curious about the size of the 1.7 intake runners and whether I can use them in this application.
Posted by: hcdmueller Jun 11 2009, 04:24 PM
From what I remember the 2.0 and 1.8 runners are the same diameter but different lengths. The 1.7 runners are a smaller diameter.
Posted by: McMark Jun 11 2009, 05:10 PM
From the PET:
022 133 201 D - 1.8 Intake Runner Left
022 133 202 B - 1.7 Intake Runner Right
022 133 202 D - 1.8 Intake Runner Left
039 133 201 B - 2.0 Intake Runner (interchangeable)
I have four '022 133 211 A' runners which are 34mm (measured at the plenum side of the tube) and have four head studs holes.
Edit: Found a 211C 1.8 intake in my stash and it's 36mm.
Posted by: underthetire Jun 11 2009, 05:54 PM
Just went through my intake runners last weekend. The 1.7 are smaller then the 1.8, and they end up in a slightly different position on the plenum.
Posted by: Gint Jun 11 2009, 06:35 PM
Thanks for the part listing.
What did those come off of? It doesn't make a ton of difference, but is that 34mm ID or OD?
Posted by: McMark Jun 11 2009, 06:38 PM
ID
Posted by: rhodyguy Jun 11 2009, 10:35 PM
mike, you still trying for a $500 budget?
Posted by: Gint Jun 12 2009, 07:32 AM
For phaseI, yes. I want to use mostly stock components that I have laying around or buy used, and build up a MS1, fuel only. In the end we might have a "recipe" of sorts for that guy that has a shot MPS and doesn't want to pay $500 for a new one.
Posted by: ottox914 Jun 12 2009, 10:35 AM
Just to add more clutter to the discussion, I'll add my .02 worth. I've worked with 3 systems, SDS, mega squirt PnP on a boosted miata, and a home built mega squirt on a Birkin lotus 7 replica.
First question: do you want to tweek or drive?
SDS. Even for fuel only, will exceed the $500 budget of this thread. It WILL be plug and play. The harness will fit. It will work. When I got mine installed, I don't think the motor turned over 2x before starting. I could drive it around the block, and do a little street-seat of the pants tuning. In an hour, it was 80-90% good. With a wideband. So more $$$. A trip to the dyno got it the rest of the way. Taking the motor out to fabricate the crank trigger set up was the hardest part. If you do fuel only, you skip this step. I would think even with building the harness, if you didn't get one from SDS, that fuel only would be an easy weekend project, if you collected the right stuff by friday. 1/2 a day project with their harness.
MegaSquirt PnP. The ecu is set up to connect to all factory harnesses on the miata, so no fabrication needed there. We'll be taking full advantage of the system, adding the flat foot shifting option and traction control once the engine tune is optomised. It will be a wicked auto cross car with 200+whp. The PnP was initially programed for a n/a motor, we're using it on a friends MP62 boosted miata, so we took our time working out idle, n/a, and low boost settings. Its been a couple months, he is driving it on the road, but has not yet auto crossed it, still working on the tune. The MS has an amazing amount of flexibility built into it- both a blessing and a curse. Example: SDS has 2 adjustments for throttle tip in enrichment, below 2k rpm, and above. Took me 10 minutes to get them both set up. MS has vaccume based and TPS based. And a slider to slightly favor one over the other. And 5 different cells for each to input a fuel amount. And 5 more cells for each to define your rate of change of vaccume or throttle position that match up with the 5 fuel cells. So you have 20 different cells to mess with, and a slider to adjust the percentage of which method is used, 40% vaccume, 60% tps, or any other split you may need/want. Is all that needed? Maybe. Do you like to tweek? Hope so. We're still working thru all this on both the miata and birkin to get good tip in enrichment with out a lean or rich spike.
MegaSquirt home built: home built MS, relay boards, harness, installed on a lotus 7 clone with a 2.0 ford duratech, cams, header, head work, pistons, using the ford edis box with the MS for spark. We have spent forever and a day chasing ghosts on this one. The car ran like crap at the last autocross. Ran fine at moderate, around towh speeds, but punch it and it bogged massively, and would not rev above 5k, when it should go to 7500. We spent the day looking at data logs of huge lean/rich spikes, and working the tip in to try to fix the spikes and bog, with little success. Most recently, the owner discovered there was no spark advance occurring- the motor was running at the physical setting of 10 degrees BTDC, and that was it. After several weekends of checking everything we could think of, pouring thru the programing and combing the internet, he discovered ONE wire on the circuit board that was attached to the wrong spot. The ecu was reading the intake air temp sensor rather than the crank sensor, for timing calculations, getting some crazy inputs, so it did nothing, and left the timing at the physical setting. Thats fixed, but now back to the basic tuning, as all our prior work is now invalid. VE table, tip in, timing, (that we thought we were getting but were not), even calibration of the O2 sensors will all need to be re-done. And, are there other land mines in the system waiting to be discovered?
Data loging: no contest, MS logger can save and present to you more info than you can imagine. Is it needed? Maybe, given the options of the system. I got the SDS to work just fine with a turbo, using just a wide band and some research/experience. I'd like to be able to log the crap out of everything like MS does, but that would hardly be "simple" now, would it?
So, if you want to tweek and geek, and do it on the cheep, MS seems the way to go. For some more bucks SDS is pretty nice, and for a few bucks more, other bigger names in ECU can be had, but that goes beyond the scope of this thread. Check out the link in by sig for the SDS to see what was involved, and keep in mind, a SDS fuel only could be done far more simply that what I did.
I'll keep watching the thread with interest- good luck!
Posted by: Gint Jun 12 2009, 02:55 PM
Just to add more clutter to the discussion, I'll add my .02 worth. I've worked with 3 systems, SDS, mega squirt PnP on a boosted miata, and a home built mega squirt on a Birkin lotus 7 replica.
First question: do you want to tweek or drive?
<--- Big Snip --->
So, if you want to tweek and geek, and do it on the cheep, MS seems the way to go. For some more bucks SDS is pretty nice, and for a few bucks more, other bigger names in ECU can be had, but that goes beyond the scope of this thread. Check out the link in by sig for the SDS to see what was involved, and keep in mind, a SDS fuel only could be done far more simply that what I did.
I'll keep watching the thread with interest- good luck!
I've read your thread David. Even voted for your car for COTM.
I like SDS, but it also stands for So Damn Spendy. Perhaps even rightfully so...
Posted by: pete-stevers Jun 12 2009, 03:12 PM
Sorry to thread hi-jack... I'm a newb, but I have a 3.0L that has been converted to carbs. I'd love to be able to convert it to a modern FI system, but wouldn't have a clue where to start.
Anyone have any links that would get me started? Should I be looking in the 911 forums instead?
Thanks.
there is a thread on the topic on the engine rebuild forum.....somewhere....
3.0 injection sys go for 350-450 but there might be bugs to work out
Posted by: jhadler Jun 12 2009, 03:29 PM
I've read your thread David. Even voted for your car for COTM.
I like SDS, but it also stands for So Damn Spendy. Perhaps even rightfully so...Hey Gint, SDS is penny-ante compared to some of the systems out there. As far as I know, SDS is one of the less expensive commercial systems out there.
-Josh2
Posted by: Gint Jun 12 2009, 03:54 PM
That doesn't change the fact that it is expensive. I don't want the higher prices alternatives either.
Edit: Read through all of the SDS doc again. It is a sweet unit. But I'd spend over $1200 just to get started with fuel. And that would still be using the stock D-Jet induction.
Posted by: ottox914 Jun 13 2009, 01:07 AM
I've read your thread David. Even voted for your car for COTM.
I like SDS, but it also stands for So Damn Spendy. Perhaps even rightfully so...Thanks for your support. I built the car for me, not for the votes, but to win it one of these times would be pretty cool. I tried another off brand EFI prior to the SDS, had nothing but problems, in spite of the mfg being very willing to try to make it all work out. After a year (season) of tweeking to no great success, I was tempted by MS, but ready to drive, not putter in the garage for another driving season, so I convinced myself to pony up the extra $$$ for the SDS. Glad I did, but working with the MS on these other 2 cars DOES appeal to the tweek-geek in me, and I am enjoying it. Maybe this is because while my 914 is down for a motor, and the miata and birkin are in progress, I can enjoy all these projects and I still have our new (used) toy to drive:
Attached image(s)
Posted by: McMark Jun 13 2009, 12:08 PM
Measured a 211C 1.8 intake runner (maybe bus 2.0?) and it measures 36mm. Which is 2mm larger ID than the 1.7 runners.
edited my post above as well to keep all the information together
Posted by: Gint Jun 13 2009, 07:23 PM
I'm going to start scrounging for a complete 1.7 setup. When I get it I'll post some measurements. For phaseI the smaller intake runners just aren't going to be a big deal. And they'll be replaced within a short time anyway.
Posted by: Gint Jun 14 2009, 04:18 PM
Looked at various parts today. I think it might be better to convert 2.0 intakes to bolt to the 1.8 heads. Maybe a little porting. 
I have 3 sets of 2.0 D-Jet pieces anyway, 1 complete, one other mostly so and another a set of parts.
On a related note, I'm curious about something I saw today. Anybody know how the intake runner tubes are attached to the flanges (that bolt to the heads)? Rex showed up with a bead blasted 1.8 runner today and it appeared to have the tubes press fit and brazed? Anyone else ever looked at a bare set and can venture a guess as to how they're attached?
Posted by: Gint Jun 15 2009, 08:42 AM
What a difference a few days makes. I've since learned that you are absolutely correct banger. Just wanted to correct myself. Are you running ignition also or just fuel?
I'll probably find this eventually as I read through the MS doco, but do I *need* an O2 sensor to use MS with the stock D-Jet setup minus the factory MPS?
Mark said that the TPS is not compatible with modern FI implementations. Why? And given that, what is the common TPS used on a factory D-Jet setup if you wanted to use one?
Posted by: tat2dphreak Jun 15 2009, 09:06 AM
hammering out exactly what to do to replace factory Djet with MS... this thread is heading to be a classic if we can get all the little things hammered out.... it really gives people an answer to "My MPS is out..." too
Posted by: Rotary'14 Jun 15 2009, 09:50 AM
What a difference a few days makes. I've since learned that you are absolutely correct banger. Just wanted to correct myself. Are you running ignition also or just fuel?
I'll probably find this eventually as I read through the MS doco, but do I *need* an O2 sensor to use MS with the stock D-Jet setup minus the factory MPS?
Mark said that the TPS is not compatible with modern FI implementations. Why? And given that, what is the common TPS used on a factory D-Jet setup if you wanted to use one?
Modern Thorttle Position Sensors use a resistor to determine how far the throttle is opened. Our old pre digital fuel injection used a TPS that was really a bunch of swithches that connected leads together based on how far the throttle was opened.
That's why we would have a hard time using the original TPS in anything but the original application.
-Rob
Posted by: banger Jun 15 2009, 10:01 AM
I am running just fuel at the moment, but will convert to ignition as well. I am taking things one step at a time, this way it makes it a little easier. The stock TPS is basically just a switch, megasquirt is looking for a potentiometer. In reality, you dont actually need a TPS with megasquirt. It is mainly there for accel enrichment, or flood clearing. The accel enrichment can also be done using the MAP sensor as well. As for ignition, there are many options. You can lock out the current distributor, and use megasquirt for the advance, or use a vanagon distributor, which doesnt have an advance mechanism, and has hall sensors. Then there is the option of using a crank sensor like the one from McMark. The crank sensor is the most modern, and most reliable way to go.
I'll probably find this eventually as I read through the MS doco, but do I *need* an O2 sensor to use MS with the stock D-Jet setup minus the factory MPS?
Mark said that the TPS is not compatible with modern FI implementations. Why? And given that, what is the common TPS used on a factory D-Jet setup if you wanted to use one?
Posted by: McMark Jun 15 2009, 12:04 PM
You do not need an O2 sensor for MS, but you can run one for a little 'self-tuning'.
Posted by: jkeyzer Jun 15 2009, 01:55 PM
A wideband O2 sensor is really helpful for tuning. I wouldn't attempt to tune MS without one. I have a gauge on the dash that shows AFR and I find it very reassuring to have a constant indicator that I'm running where I want to be.
Posted by: tat2dphreak Jun 15 2009, 02:21 PM
what wideband O2 sensor would be the best, since we are on that portion of the discussion?
when I do this, I'll probably mock it up on my spare (1.8) engine, and get it close on that, then swap over to the 2056, and fine tune for the larger displacement... I'll do ignition and fuel at the same time..
can the O2 be used as a temporary addon for tuning, or once you use the O2, does it need to be there forever?, also, would we need to use 2 o2 sensors, one on each cylinder bank?
Posted by: jhadler Jun 15 2009, 02:30 PM
If you've got a Bursch, headers or anything else that routes the exhaust into 1 output, you'd be more than fine running a single O2 sensor. And even if you're running straight pipes (but why would you?) if your intake is common, then you should still be fine. I had an O2 sensor bung welded to my header collector the day I received it.
-Josh2
Posted by: tat2dphreak Jun 15 2009, 02:49 PM
ok, that's what I was thinking too... I was thinking the bung on the #3 cylinder for stock H/Es
Posted by: jhadler Jun 15 2009, 02:59 PM
ok, that's what I was thinking too... I was thinking the bung on the #3 cylinder for stock H/Es
I'd want to sample as much exhaust as possible, not the least. If you're running a Bursch or a header, I'd weld that bung on the collector.
-Josh2
Posted by: underthetire Jun 15 2009, 04:52 PM
I run my O2 on the collector. Too far back for a single wire. You need a heated O2.
1.8 tubes are bigger, but also end up in a different position on the plenum than a 1.7. I would think a 1.8 plenum would be better if you were to install a newer throttle body. I have the newer throttle body, just no plenum.
Posted by: tat2dphreak Jun 15 2009, 06:48 PM
I would think by the muffler would be too far back...
Posted by: banger Jun 15 2009, 06:54 PM
Basically anywhere in the exhaust stream is good. Its best to have it where they all merge together, since then you will be looking at a mix from all the cylinders. I have also used a clamp on O2 sensor, if you just want to do some quick tuning. If you tie the sensor into megasquirt, it can be set to constantly adjust the mixture, so you are always at proper tune. It also makes it much easier to tune the engine when you initially start. With mine, I drive the car with the logging turned on, then download the log, and have it check the tuning against my A/F map. It then tweaks the fuel tables. After doing this a few times, you can get the engine dialed in quite well.
Posted by: Gint Jun 15 2009, 08:39 PM
You running a narrow or wide?
Posted by: banger Jun 15 2009, 08:43 PM
I use a wideband from Innovate Motorsports, the LC-1.
Posted by: Gint Jun 15 2009, 08:56 PM
So you bought just the O2 sensor form them then? Does DIYTune offer one? Let me look...
Posted by: banger Jun 15 2009, 09:02 PM
You can usually find the LC-1 wideband controller with O2 sensor on ebay for $150-175.
Posted by: Gint Jun 15 2009, 09:06 PM
Can't you just buy the sensor? Do you use the controller with the MS or was the entire setup a prior purchase kinda deal?
http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/xcart/product.php?productid=16134&cat=250&page=1
Posted by: banger Jun 15 2009, 09:43 PM
With a wideband, you will need a controller. This regulates the temperature of the sensor, and the voltages. With a narrowband, you do not need a controller.
Posted by: Gint Jun 16 2009, 07:08 AM
Wow... really. After all of the time and money spent building an MS it can't perform those control functions of the O2 sensor?. It still needs to be done externally?
Posted by: Rotary'14 Jun 16 2009, 07:29 AM
Wow... really. After all of the time and money spent building an MS it can't perform those control functions of the O2 sensor?. It still needs to be done externally?
All after market (including MS) fuel injection systems can control and accept a signal from a regular O2 sensor. No reasonably priced after marked EFI can control a wideband O2 just out of the box,, at least not yet. This limitation is across the board.
Regular O2 sensors (like in most cars) only sense a "narrow" portion of the air fuel mixture, it reads the sweet spot which is 14.7, and + or - a couple of tenths. It does not give a useable signal when we tune for richer (more power) air fuel ratios.
Wide band O2 sensors,, like the name implies can read a "wide swath across a much larger portion of the AFR range,, like 10~20. With a this type of O2 you can aim at a specific AFR for a given load. But it needs it's own controller. Most of the hyper mileage new cars use these O2s, but they also cost more $$.
-Rob
-Rob
Posted by: Gint Jun 16 2009, 07:41 AM
Learning all kinds of stuff... Thanks.
Posted by: wobbletop Jun 16 2009, 09:03 AM
There is a MegaSquirt article in the latest (Aug09) Grass Roots Motorsports magazine.
Haven't read it yet, but it details adding it to a RX-7.
Posted by: Gint Jun 16 2009, 10:08 AM
That's probably worth a read...
Posted by: McMark Jun 16 2009, 12:53 PM
Good O2 sensor info Rob!
It's important to also point out that a narrow band O2 sensor has an EXTREMELY non-linear voltage output, where as the wide band O2 sensor out is linear. Here are some graphs:
Attached thumbnail(s)
Posted by: wobbletop Jun 16 2009, 01:14 PM
Possible source for inexpensive wide band O2 systems...
Edit: A better smaller unit from the same site...
http://www.14point7.com/Widebands/NAW_OEM/NAW_OEM.htm
Posted by: Gint Jun 17 2009, 07:36 AM
Where'd everybody go?
Let's get down to it. There's been some great discussion, but I'd like to get back to the original question. There were a few direct answers but not many really complete ones.
If I use the factory D-Jet setup for a 2.0 excluding the MPS,TPS and ECU, what do I need? Also going to be using a Mallory and MSD. Which components of the stock D-Jet will I not need? Some of you that have BTDT that could completely list what you're using would be killer. Wiring harness solutions would be cool too. And who's really using an MS without an O2 sensor?
Posted by: banger Jun 17 2009, 11:44 AM
From the stock D-jet system, you will need:
Injectors
CHT sensor
IAT Sensor
And of course, throttle body, plenum, runners etc.
Posted by: tat2dphreak Jun 17 2009, 11:52 AM
basically everything except the TPS,MPS and ECU, right?
what TPS should go with the MS? we heard reasons the stock one wouldn't work, but I didn't get a model number or anything for what TPS to get
Posted by: jkeyzer Jun 17 2009, 12:56 PM
Gint -
Here's what I did. I hope I didn't forget anything.
- Stock 2.0L D-jet System as a starting point
- Added MS V2.2 with MSII brain (V2.2 is obsolete now)
- Ditched the 2.0L injectors and used 1.7L instead
- Added 4 injector series resistors (8 ohm I think) since I'm not using flyback mode in the spirit of KISS.
- Replaced TPS with a variable resistor type.
- Got rid of MPS, CSV, thermotime switch, D-jet ECU.
- Kept the AAR, FPR, stock fuel pump, and all the mechanical stuff like throttle body etc.
- I think I'm using a 1.7L CHT, you could probably make any CHT work. Using stock IAT.
- Added MSD and Mallory Unilite for ignition and tach signal to MS.
- Replaced tach guts with late model tach so it will accept the MSD tach output.
- Added Tech Edge WBO2 controller and Bosch 7057 sensor.
- Added bung to exhaust at the 180 deg. bend before the muffler (Bursch style setup).
- Built custom wiring harness based on stock D-jet harness.
- Made custom box to hold the ECU, wideband controller, inj. resistors, fuses. Box is mounted inside the car, between the seats.
Does this give you a better picture?
Posted by: DNHunt Jun 17 2009, 12:59 PM
Well,
I'll take a whack at it from memory. I'll probably leave some stuff out and I'm sure there is more than one way to do this so, I hope others will pipe in.
Choices:
1) Use resistors (that is what was used on the 1.8l) or;
2) Use pulse width modulation to limit current to the injectors (kind of like turning a light on and off real fast, 1 more thing to tune)
3) How to trigger (you want to use MSD and that is good cause it has a nice clean signal)
Things you'll need:
1) Laptop or Palm device for tuning
2) http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/usb-serial-adapter-works-with-megatune-p-67.html for tuning with laptop
2) Wide band O2 for tuning
3) Digital Volt Meter to test
4) http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/megasquirt-stimulator-v22-assembled-unit-p-33.html for testing unless you can borrow one.
5) http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/megasquirt-relay-board-unassembled-kit-p-31.html. This not absolutely necessary but, it helps a lot.
6) Soldering iron if you do a kit
7) Time
Fuel Delivery
From the tank, through the fuel circuit assuming you have carbs.
1) Tank sock
2) Supply hard lines through the center tunnel.
3) Fuel filter
4) FI fuel pump (stock or after market). I used the stock one for years and it was fine up through 2270. I am now using a http://www.summitracing.com/parts/VPN-GSL392/ pump. This can be mounted up front.
5) Fuel injection hose to the passenger fuel rail (stock is fine). clamped with FI hose clamps (Use these on all of the high pressure hose).
6) Passenger fuel rail 022 133 321b
7) Injector #3 (Stock 2.0l, 1.8l or 1.7 liter !.8l injectors will accept more modern Bosch style connectors, big plus)
8) Injector #4
9) High pressure hose from the passenger side to the drivers side
10) Driver's side fuel rail 022 133 315b
11) Injector #2
12) If the rail has it you can attach a fuel pressure gauge to the bung on this rail between injectors #2 and 1.
13) Injector #1
14) High pressure hose
15) Fuel pressure regulator (Stock works pretty darn well) 039 133 551
16) High pressure hose to the return line to the tank.
Air Delivery
I used a lot of the stock 2.0l stuff. I'm not familiar with the 1.8, 1.7, or bus.
1) Stock air box 039 129 607a
2) Stock Air filter 039 129 620a
3) Stock 45 mm throttle body 039 133 063d
4) Stock plenum 039 133 055b
5) Stock hoses to connect runners to plenum 039 133 241
6) Stock intake runners and manifolds 039 133 201b
7) Stock intake manifold gaskets 039 129 707
Electrical
Megasquirt stuff
1) http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/megasquirti-programmable-efi-system-pcb30-unassembled-kit-p-46.html
or
1) http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/megasquirtii-engine-management-system-wpcb3-unassembled-kit-p-59.html
2) Above mentioned relay board if you want
3) http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/megasquirti-relay-cable-p-47.html or this can be made.
4) Harness from relay board to engine and sensors. You gotta make this I think.
or
2) eliminate the relay board and use http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/1239-megasquirt-wiring-harness-ms1-ms2-ready-p-43.html. This looks pretty cool and wasn't available when I did mine. You would need fusing and a relay for main power and fused and relay for the fuel pump and idle air control if you use that. And, fusing for the injectors.
Power
1) Switched 12V. I got it from the hot wire to the coil, 12pin connector, pin 7 on the car's relay board.
2) Good ground I took it back ti - side of the battery.
3) 12 V from the battery to supply the relays
4) Good plug wires to keep electrical noise down and resistor plugs seemed to help.
5) Shielding on the tach input for triggering MS
Sensors
1) Map sensor is on the MS board. You need to run vacuum to this from the plenum to the port. It may need metering to sooth out the signal such as a filter in the line or I use a MIG welding orifice.
2) Intake air temperature, I used the stock one in the plenum. It is subject to heat soak and needs to be calibrated with a program from Megatune
3) Engine Temperature sensor. I used the stock cylinder head temperature sensor by #3 spark plug. It needs to be calibrated with Megatune.
4) Throttle position sensor. I went to the junkyard and found one that worked. It needs to turn the proper direction and have the proper shaft size. It was not easy to find. http://www.sdsefi.com/tps.htm. I'm not sure about the shaft size however. This needs to be calibrated.
5) O2 sensor. Many to choose from. I use Techedge and I like it a lot.
6) http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/mild-steel-18x15-thread-bung-and-plug-kit-p-71.html
7) Trigger. You mentioned MSD and that has a nice output that will trigger the injection events. I can't remember which circuit you would use in MS however.
Vacuum stuff
1) MAP signal from the plenum to the MAP sensor on the MS board. As I said above it may need to be quieted.
2) Idle air. The simplest way to do this is the stock system with a auxiliary air valve 022 906 045 with switched 12V from the fuel pump circuit and vacuum line from the air cleaner to the plenum. MS1 can control an idle air valve and MS2 can control a stepper motor for idle air control.
3) Stock crankcase ventilation
4) Stock charcoal cannister for fumes.
Dave
Posted by: banger Jun 17 2009, 01:01 PM
For the TPS, almost anything will work. I found one from a volvo, on ebay. The hardest part is getting one which matches up with the D shaft on the throttle body. I just looked at the pictures of the TPS on ebay, until I found one that would take a d shaped shaft. Not too hard in the end.
Posted by: McMark Jun 17 2009, 04:15 PM
TPS must accept the D-shaft, as well as turning the correct direction. Some turn clockwise, some counterclockwise.
Posted by: jkeyzer Jun 17 2009, 05:42 PM
Mine is from a group buy on the MS forums several years ago. If I find a source for more I'll post the details here.
Posted by: Gint Jun 17 2009, 05:57 PM
Yes it does. Thanks to you Jeff and everyone else that has contributed to this thread.
DIYtune's site says that the 'MegaSquirt-I Programmable EFI System PCB3.0' can "Use any injector - High or Low impedance."
Is this the flyback mode?
Posted by: Gint Jun 17 2009, 06:21 PM
Your memory is obviously better than mine Dave. Amazing! Thanks.
Posted by: banger Jun 17 2009, 07:46 PM
Actually it doesnt really matter which way it goes.. If it goes the wrong way, then you swap the wires around.
TPS must accept the D-shaft, as well as turning the correct direction. Some turn clockwise, some counterclockwise.
Posted by: Rotary'14 Jun 17 2009, 08:01 PM
To the guys who have done this before,,,
I bet it would help if we can get the part #/car info of the TPS that fit the stock throttle's D-shaft. I would bet there are some OEM ones that should fit right on the shaft, and would only need an adapter plate fabbed up.
-Rob
Posted by: McMark Jun 17 2009, 09:02 PM
TPS - 1336385
Volvo Applications:
C70 '98'
S70 '98'
S70 Turbo '98'
S90 '97 thru '98
V70 Turbo '98' X-Country
V70 '98'
V70 Turbo '98'
V70 T5 '98'
V70R Turbo '98' AWD
V90 '97 thru '98
850 '93 thru '97
850 Turbo '94 thru '97
960 '92 thru '97
Posted by: Gint Jun 18 2009, 05:02 PM
Jeff, See post #163 please.
Posted by: jkeyzer Jun 18 2009, 05:26 PM
I think MS 3.0 includes all of the flyback circuitry onboard (some of it may be optional) as opposed to 2.2 which required a 2nd board for flyback.
V3.0 supports both high and low impedance injectors because you can either add series resistors to low impedance injectors (like I did) or use PWM mode on the injector drivers to limit the current.
Both approaches have advantages and disadvantages, the biggest disadvantage to PWM mode (imho) is that if for some reason the settings get screwed up you can fry your injectors with too much current.
The disadvantages of injector resistors are slow open/close times limiting the minimum duty cycle and problems getting the injectors to open during cranking. I haven't experienced either of these problems with my setup. YMMV.
Posted by: Gint Jun 18 2009, 06:05 PM
Hmmm... definitely food for thought there.
So that's 1 8 ohm resistor in series for each injector? In the harness I assume?
Posted by: jkeyzer Jun 18 2009, 06:37 PM
I mounted them in the ECU box that I stuck between the seats inside the car. The resistors go in series with the MS injector outputs, so it made sense to mount them next to the MS. I'm pretty sure they are 8 ohm, 10 Watt resistors, just because that is what I found at the local electronics store. I think anything from 6-10 Ohms should be fine.
The pic below shows the resistors in the box before the ECU and WBO2 controller were installed.
Attached image(s)
Posted by: Gint Jun 18 2009, 06:41 PM
Nice. With pics even! Thanks.
Posted by: jkeyzer Jun 18 2009, 06:50 PM
Nice. With pics even! Thanks.
I'm uploading a bunch more as we speak:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/mightyohm/sets/72157619942677458/
Posted by: crash914 Jun 18 2009, 07:22 PM
all you need, included is a relay box and a harness made from beck arnley connectors....not included is the wide band O2 controller....
use a tps with a d shaft..around36 to 40 bucks from someone on the internet...
Posted by: Gint Jun 18 2009, 10:08 PM
http://www.flickr.com/photos/mightyohm/sets/72157619942677458/
Wow. I like the way you did that. Very nice work Jeff. Did you test run all of that before you built the assembly? Just curious... The ferrite ring on the red wires into the fuse block; looks like main power for the whole shootin match?
Posted by: Rotary'14 Jun 18 2009, 10:45 PM
TPS - 1336385
Volvo Applications:
C70 '98'
S70 '98'
S70 Turbo '98'
S90 '97 thru '98
V70 Turbo '98' X-Country
V70 '98'
V70 Turbo '98'
V70 T5 '98'
V70R Turbo '98' AWD
V90 '97 thru '98
850 '93 thru '97
850 Turbo '94 thru '97
960 '92 thru '97
THANKS
-Rob
Posted by: jkeyzer Jun 18 2009, 11:24 PM
Wow. I like the way you did that. Very nice work Jeff. Did you test run all of that before you built the assembly? Just curious... The ferrite ring on the red wires into the fuse block; looks like main power for the whole shootin match?
I tested the Megasquirt on the stim and had the WBO2 in the car for a few months before I switched over. I checked that all of the sensors were working before firing it up the first time, but everything pretty much just worked.
Posted by: banger Jun 18 2009, 11:45 PM
If you dont want to spring for the relay board, it is quite easy to use the stock relay board on the 914. I used the old ecu connector that attached to the stock board. This saves having to wire the fuel pump etc.
Posted by: Rick_Eberle Jun 19 2009, 06:27 AM
If you dont want to spring for the relay board, it is quite easy to use the stock relay board on the 914. I used the old ecu connector that attached to the stock board. This saves having to wire the fuel pump etc.
This is how I did it. I'll find my wiring diagram, but I used a couple of wires from the four pin connector to power the MSII, EDIS, and LC-1, and the fuel pump goes through... I can't remember, but I'll dig it out!
Posted by: Gint Jun 19 2009, 09:39 AM
This is fantastic! Thanks to all and keep 'em coming.
Posted by: jkeyzer Jun 19 2009, 12:35 PM
I used the stock 914 relay board also. I am still using the stock fuel pump relay and D-jet power relay with the MS.
Posted by: Gint Jun 19 2009, 01:12 PM
That's what I'm planning on doing. I need to find the fuel pump wires at the harness though. PO cut them off or something when they did the carb swap.
Posted by: McMark Jun 19 2009, 02:44 PM
FYI: The fuel pump wires are in the body harness (not the engine harness) and branch off near the battery tray.
Posted by: Gint Jun 19 2009, 03:02 PM
I know. They're still MIA. Some DAPO cut them off or something
Posted by: Gint Jun 19 2009, 03:55 PM
I got motivated to go out and look for 'em. They're there, but as I guessed they've been cut off right where they come out of the harness sheathing.
Posted by: McMark Jun 19 2009, 04:15 PM
Strip, solder, heatshrink. 
Posted by: Gint Jun 22 2009, 07:14 AM
Ok slackers... I gave you the weekend off. Thread almost fell to page 3.
Anybody know where that really good pic of a relay board is? In particular the one "with circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back of each one explaining what each one was"? (Thanks Arlo).
Posted by: Gint Jun 22 2009, 08:26 AM
This is a good one...
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=91010&hl=relay++board
Posted by: Gint Jun 22 2009, 07:18 PM
Volvo Applications:
C70 '98'
S70 '98'
S70 Turbo '98'
S90 '97 thru '98
V70 Turbo '98' X-Country
V70 '98'
V70 Turbo '98'
V70 T5 '98'
V70R Turbo '98' AWD
V90 '97 thru '98
850 '93 thru '97
850 Turbo '94 thru '97
960 '92 thru '97
What about late 240 series and even early 700 series cars? I saw a boatload of them in the pull-n-save today.
Posted by: McMark Jun 23 2009, 12:58 AM
No idea. Sorry. It took me a bit of searching to just find that one.
Posted by: sechszylinder Jun 23 2009, 03:50 AM
Hi Mark, folks,
following the discussions concerning cheap aftermarket efi systems i'd like to say some words about
my experience with megasquirt on a 2l fourbanger.
Right now I'm running a MS-1 systems since three years without any problems. I build my system
completely from scratch using a PCB for the MINI-MS which is a MS1 derivate. I've integrated the
PCB into an old L-Jetronic case from a 1987 320i BMW. The nice things about this combination is,
that i don't need the megasquirt relay board, since the pcb has the relays onboard and the pretty nice
connectors of the L-Jetronic system which i've used for the wiring harness. As you can see in the
pictures i've also integrated the load resistors for the original injection (green) valves into the same
case. I've experienced no problems with heat dissipation or any other kind of problems with this
setup.
The MAP sensor is build into an old Bosch D-Jet MAP sensor housing which give a pretty stock look.
The original TPS is modified with an aftermarket resistor build by spectrol bought from the electronic
distributor farnell here in germany.
Except the TPS, MAP sensor and a pertronix ignition all other parts are stock D-Jet system parts
(intake temperature sensor, auxiliary air regulator).
It's absolutely important that you use a wideband o2 sensor. Without that you will never be able to
tune your system. I've used the innovate LC-1 system for tuning which I removed after approx. three
month of tuning and tinkering with the various options megasquirt offers you.
If you have some experience with electronic stuff (I'm an EE) I can only say - go for it !! The car runs
like a charm and you can remove all the 30 years old crap from your engine compartment, which is
no more needed for your new EFI e.g. old throttle switch or those crappy triggering contacts in the
distributor ...
Just another hint: Do yourself (and your car) a favor and build a new wiring harness! The most
problems with efi swaps arise from old broken wires reused for the MS system.
greetings form Berlin/Germany
Benno
Attached image(s)
Posted by: charliew Jun 23 2009, 03:49 PM
Very nice craftsmanship Benno. It looks perfect.
Posted by: Gint Jun 26 2009, 09:10 PM
Got me a wideband O2 and controller! 
For reference:
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=96974&
Posted by: jkeyzer Jun 26 2009, 09:17 PM
Benno, nice job on that L-jet case! Reusing the connector is a brilliant idea.
The TPS sensor you used is exactly the same as the one I'm using on my car.
Posted by: Rick_Eberle Aug 5 2009, 10:16 PM
For my MSII setup, I used pin I of the Four Pin Connector to power the MSII, EDIS module and the LC-1 Wideband Controller, with inline fuses for each of those.
Pin III is the fuel pump relay ground, and connects to pin 37 on the MSII's DB37 connector.
Posted by: mightyohm Aug 5 2009, 11:14 PM
My harness is wired the same way.
Posted by: ClayPerrine Aug 6 2009, 07:39 AM
Some Reference Info.....
There are 3 basic types of fuel injection....
1. Mass Air flow systems.
Think L-Jet.. Load is determined by amount of air coming into the engine.
2. Speed Density Systems
Think D-Jet..Load is determined by throttle position and and manifold vacuum.
3. Alpha-N systems.
This is MFI. Load is determined by engine speed and throttle position.
Gint... You could go with Mechanical Fuel Injection. Just find the injection pump of a BMW 2002 Tii. It would be cool.... (Yea, I know, don't bug me... I like MFI).
15 years ago or so, I built a modern fuel injection for a 914 out of the injection for a Oldsmobile Quad 4 engine. I used the GM DIS and the Mass Airflow injection. I also used the throttle body from the Quad 4. It was a great system. I took the intake plenum from a 2.0L 914 and cut out the throttle body mount, then welded in a plate with the proper bolt pattern for the quad 4 throttle body. I machined the flywheel to have the notches for the DIS in the back, and mounted the crank sensor in the hole in the back of the case that opens to the flywheel (the one for the VW automatic stick shift torque converter bolts). I put the wiring harness together and used the stock relay board as much as I could.
It ran really good, but I constantly had a check engine light as I never found the part I was looking for to fix the vehicle speed sensor. Then the starter hung and chewed up the teeth on the flywheel, so I had to replace it. Pulled the whole system and went back to carbs due to a lack of money to get a new flywheel machined.
Still have most of the parts. I cut the harness I built to get it out when I decided to do the six conversion.
Posted by: blackmoon Aug 6 2009, 12:50 PM
Gint,
check this link from shoptalkforum, more info than you will ever need for different FI systems and other suggestions:
http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=114309
however, this made add to your confusion.
Think of the MPS as a specialized MAP sensor built only for D-Jet. I've never heard of a MP sensor and would suspect that it's just another name for MAP sensors.MicroSquirt/SDS/Motec/etc all use MAP sensors. MicroSquirt is compatible with MAF sensors as well which are a completely different sensors and are more accurate.
Thanks Mark.
Maybe I can educate myself one day at a time.
Another Q to no one in particular. I'm going to assume that all of the peeps that say MS1 doesn't need an MPS are now using some other sort of MAP sensor then? If so, what are you using and if not, why and how. Also, the same has been said of the TPS (you don't need it). Why? How?Thanks!
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