Printable Version of Topic

Posted by: RobW Jun 18 2009, 09:20 PM

So without talking politics or religion... what do you think about the cash for clunkers program? Is anyone here going to be able to do it?

Posted by: Project 6 Jun 18 2009, 09:21 PM

Lot of restrictions....paid for by the oil companies and big polluters. Sponsored by the Air Resources Board.

Posted by: Zundfolge Jun 18 2009, 09:55 PM

Nope ... can't comment on it without bringing up politics. Sorry.


Socialism is bad 'um kay

Posted by: RobW Jun 18 2009, 10:12 PM

I'm just curious if anyone here will do it, or if anyone abroad sees it working. I figure either the low low end of the income producers will benefit (if you call picking up a new car loan a benefit), and upper enders with xtra cars that qualify.

I have a 2000 4Runner that has a trade in value of $5000 so its about a wash....

Posted by: SirAndy Jun 18 2009, 10:34 PM

True.

I'm just glad we don't have anything here that even remotely resembles real socialism ...
Andy

Posted by: RickS Jun 18 2009, 10:54 PM

I figure the 'up to' $4.5k will reimburse the buyer for the typical depreciation hit on a new car. Since I typically buy used cars where some other poor slob has already taken the depreciation hit - it may be time to get a car with an actual warranty. Diesel Jetta perhaps - but I need AWD. I like diesel because of MPG and biodiesel. Suggestions?

(Notice my skill in not getting sucked into Politics and Religion.)

Posted by: Todd Enlund Jun 18 2009, 10:57 PM

So, if this goes through, I trade in my Jeep, and in addition to whatever the dealer gives me, the government gives me an additional $4500?

Posted by: RobW Jun 18 2009, 11:08 PM

No, that's the rub. You trade in your Jeep, you get $0 for it, and the dealer cuts the price of the car $3500 or $4500 if you get a little 0-2mpg or a little better 2+ mpg mileage.

It also needs to be LATER than an '84, drivable, and owned and insured for at least a year. The dealer then has to send it to a wrecker. You, me, everyone, your descentants, etc will then pay the $4500 + interest for you and maybe 149,999 of likeminded folks through taxes for the next 50 years.

I figure it's a lotto for the extra cheap car owner, an incentive to borrow for the poor, and chum for hurting dealers (although Honda and Toyota figure to reap most of the bene's).

Posted by: 914_teener Jun 18 2009, 11:11 PM

My understanding is that it has to get under 18 MPG? Funny thing is... my brand new Sienna doesn't qualify and I have already taken the depreciation hit . Go figure.

I appreciate your skill avoiding the politics. Like a true NW... smart.

Quess my teener is out though. So maybe it appreciates? Again go figure.

Rob S

Posted by: Gunther Jun 19 2009, 12:05 AM

I've got an old duelly that I payed $2200.00 for. I've got a total of $3000.00 into it. It gets 10mpg. They will give me $4500.00 for it. I'll get a newer duelly for a couple of extra bucks and get 15mpg. Gee How can I go wrong?

Posted by: charliew Jun 19 2009, 12:07 AM

Maybe they will take my k5 86 blazer with the 350 ramjet that I've got about 12k in. It doesn't get 18mpg. Or my 91 3/4 ton 4x4 suburban, Wonder if a honda will pull my car trailer? or maybe they want the 86 or 88 gt fieros I use to run errands. They do get better than 18 though. Too bad they don't want the 70's international scouts, jeeps or blazers setting in the yard. Only thing is I haven't had a car payment since I gave my son my 2000 harley truck to trade in on his sti for a graduation present. I sure don't need a car payment now. Probably can't pay my taxes next year.

Posted by: RobW Jun 19 2009, 01:44 AM

You have to buy a NEW truck to replace it.... A Mahindra perhaps??

Posted by: RobW Jun 19 2009, 01:45 AM

You don't have to get 18mpg to get a voucher, you just have to beat the car you junk...

Posted by: johannes Jun 19 2009, 01:55 AM

It's the third time they do something like that in France.
They do it every time there is a crisis in automotive industry.
It works pretty well. It had helped to maintain decent sellings of new cars and barely saved the french automotive industry (Peugeot Citroen Renault).
Your old car must be more than 10 years old. You receive 1000 Euros bonus + variable bonus (200 to 2000 Euros) depending on energy and fuel efficiency of the new car you buy.

Most of european countries have now similar system.

Posted by: Gunther Jun 19 2009, 07:15 AM

My understanding is that you don't have to buy a new vehicle. You do need to buy it from a dealer though and you have to have owned it for more than 120 days. I'll have to reread my paper work.

Anyone out there have a link to the rules?

Posted by: RobW Jun 19 2009, 08:08 AM

Passing in Congress:
http://abclocal.go.com/wpvi/story?section=news/politics&id=6872285

Early Details
http://www.edmunds.com/industry-car-news/cash-for-clunkers.html

Posted by: RobW Jun 19 2009, 10:14 AM

More info

Cash-for-Clunkers Bill Passes
The Senate passed a pared-down version of the so-called cash-for-clunkers program Thursday that will give rebates to new car buyers who turn in older, less fuel-efficient models and that supporters are hopeful will kick-start the anemic car market. According to USA Today, the program, offering $3,500 or $4,500 cash vouchers, was inserted into a war-spending measure. As passed, program spending is limited to $1 billion and expires Oct. 1. "Cash-for-clunkers will provide a much-needed, short-term boost to the auto industry," said AIADA President Cody Lusk in a statement. "Americans need a reason to return to their local dealership, and this program, which benefits consumers and the environment, is a very good reason." The program would take effect within 30 days of being signed by President Obama, which he has said he will do. Cash-for-clunkers is expected to be in operation in early August. Click here for coverage of how the plan is expected to work once implemented. Similar programs have already been enacted in Europe and have spurred stronger sales almost immediately after taking effect. Click here for a database of qualifying vehicles, courtesy of The Detroit News. To read USA Today's coverage of Senate passage of scrappage legislation, click here.

Posted by: tat2dphreak Jun 19 2009, 10:57 AM

Posted by: charliew Jun 19 2009, 02:00 PM

Sounds like the folks that don't use the scrap deal should get a 4500 tax break so things would even up. Course when was life ever fair?

Maybe next they'll give us 4500 to spend 20k on a solar energy package at the house.

My house has had solar hot water since 86. Course the maintenance has cost whatever the savings were.

Posted by: SLITS Jun 19 2009, 02:05 PM

We already gave them $36 B and they're only gonna give us back $1 B ..... Hmmmmm, looks like the "family" has found a new home.

Posted by: RobW Jun 19 2009, 02:06 PM

Basically if you have a car worth more than $3500 - $4500, or can't afford to finance a new car, the only benefit is the good feeling that your tax dollars went to help someone less fortunate, or opportunistic with a cheap working car that applies.

Here's more official word:

BREAK-DOWN OF CASH FOR CLUNKERS PLAN:
Vehicle must have an MSRP of $45,000 or less
Only one voucher per customer
Excludes leases under 5 years
Effective July 1, 2009 – November 1, 2009
The National Highway Transportation and Safety Administration (NHTSA) has 30 days from enactment to specify rules and requirements

Passenger Car Light-Duty Truck Large Light-Duty Truck
(6,000-8,500lbs.) Work Truck
(8,500-10,000lbs.)
Minimum Fuel Economy
for New Vehicle 22 MPG
(EPA Combined) 18 MPG
(EPA Combined) 15 MPG
(EPA Combined) No Requirement

$3,500 Voucher Mileage improvement of at least 4 MPG Mileage improvement of at least 2 MPG Mileage improvement of at least 1 MPG or trade-in of Work Truck Trade-in must be pre-2001 M.Y.
$4,500 Voucher Mileage improvement of at least 10 MPG Mileage improvement of at least 5 MPG Mileage improvement of at least 2 MPG

Posted by: charliew Jun 19 2009, 02:12 PM

Thats all 80 % of my tax dollars ever did was to help mostly those more fortunate than me or those smart enough to live off the system.

Posted by: SirAndy Jun 19 2009, 02:30 PM

I know a few people that live "off the system", and trust me they're neither smart nor is their lifestyle anything like i would want my life to look like.

Maybe i missed the memo, but i thought the whole premise of collecting taxes from me was to use the money to help everybody else.

I'm not sure i understand why you think your taxes should be spent on yourself. Kind of defeats the point, doesn't it?
Andy

PS: Hey Admins, wanna lock this thread?

Posted by: RobW Jun 19 2009, 02:36 PM

Back on topic, (pre-censor) is anyone going to do this?

Posted by: tat2dphreak Jun 19 2009, 02:37 PM

well said andy.

Posted by: tat2dphreak Jun 19 2009, 02:38 PM

only car I could trade in is a 10 year old civic... it still gets 32 mpg city, so I don't know what would be better... so, no, not me..

Posted by: RobW Jun 19 2009, 02:41 PM

What is the Civic worth? You might be able to get $4500 towards a Prius...

Posted by: charliew Jun 19 2009, 02:45 PM

It's been awhile since I ran across someone that spoke for what I think.

Posted by: tat2dphreak Jun 19 2009, 02:45 PM

yea, but then I'd have to drive a prius

the civic hasn't even got 80k miles on it... I'll keep driving it until my wife's CRV is paid off...

Posted by: charliew Jun 19 2009, 02:49 PM

I would rather apply the 4500 to a electric 914 or type 3 but it would need more range than whats affordable now.

Also I didn't read the clunker rules but a friend told me it only applied to high density smog areas not the rural areas.

Posted by: RobW Jun 19 2009, 03:00 PM

That's exactly the best option. Keep driving your hopefully paid off car.

Posted by: RobW Jun 19 2009, 03:00 PM

There's no restriction on rural areas.

Posted by: ericread Jun 19 2009, 03:07 PM

Since politics have already been breached in this thread, I'm really gonna blow your mind now:


















Get ready...



















"GOD"


Now I've really done it. Politics and religion in the same thread!!!

Posted by: tat2dphreak Jun 19 2009, 03:25 PM

yep, it's been paid off for 6 years... low miles, still perfect interior... never had 1 problem...

Posted by: dw914er Jun 19 2009, 03:32 PM

well done

Posted by: dw914er Jun 19 2009, 03:38 PM

well said


I think the program is interesting. Provides an incentive to trade up to a more efficient car, and jump start the auto companies (which, probably might have been a better idea than bailouts themselves (don't give them money, but make it easier for people to actually buy them)). Who knows, this might actually make it reasonable to get a new car.

BTW, socialism isn't exactly very bad, itself. The ugly cousin, communism is. But for taxes, I think Andy said it best.

Posted by: tat2dphreak Jun 19 2009, 03:43 PM

the whole socialism is bad for america arguement would hold water... except we already have 'socialist' programs that work and do good things... WIC, Welfare, Social Security... etc.

Canada has social healthcare too and from what I've heard, seems to work well... maybe not perfect, but not horrible either...

Posted by: dw914er Jun 19 2009, 03:59 PM

agreed

the principle works to make sure there are less losers overall... no one gets too well off, and not as many people get raped... each scenario has its trade off's, and its a balancing act. but whatever, this is way off topic


i wonder if car sales will go up. There are now alot of incentives to buy cars, wonder if people will take the bait

Posted by: turboman808 Jun 19 2009, 04:06 PM

Some socialist ideas are great. But ya let one socialist idea in and they got 100 of their friends wanting in as well.


Am I reading that wrong or do you have to take out a 5 year loan to qualify. I have already decided I won't buy another car unless I have the cash. Might be hard because I want a car that cost 100 grand in 2 years but I hate to give banks my money.

Posted by: SLITS Jun 19 2009, 04:11 PM

Damn, this place is to nice. 39 posts and nobody has called anyone a dickhead, shithead, butthead, assbite or stupid.

Posted by: DBCooper Jun 19 2009, 04:18 PM

Ah... I see... so socialism is like Wall Street? Or maybe like the Texas legislature?

Posted by: tat2dphreak Jun 19 2009, 04:21 PM

shithead.


yea, if I wanted a new car and a new payment, I don't think the deal is bad... and now is a good time to buy, imo... salemen are hungrier for sales, more willing to deal. the other day Cadillacs here were $15k off sticker... that's a hell of a discount...

Posted by: RobW Jun 19 2009, 04:26 PM

Happy to oblige, but still wondering if anyone here would, or more specifically COULD do the Cash for Clinkers program.

My theory is that it only helps people, who could be harmed by the debt for the rest of the price tag, and lotto winners driving and insuring super old 1984-1995 cars. Also, dealers, state and local tax beneficiaries, scrap yards, and of course our freedom loving reps.

Posted by: tat2dphreak Jun 19 2009, 04:32 PM

dunno, I think it could help a lot of people... I still see a lot of older cars on the road... my buddy is thinking about trying this for his 96 saturn... I thought I read somewhere the car only had to be like 8-10 years old to be eligible? I can't remember tho..


edit:

I checked... yea...

from edmunds:
How old does my car need to be? Eligible vehicles must be manufactured in model year 1984 or later. For work trucks however, any model built before 2002 is eligible. We anticipate that most cars traded in will likely be model-year 2000 and older.

Posted by: SLITS Jun 19 2009, 04:34 PM

Thank you ... my faith in Tejas is restored

I have the vehicle to do it, but I don't want the payment. The only bank I pay interest to is the one that holds the note on my house.

Posted by: RobW Jun 19 2009, 04:47 PM

I can tell you being debt free is the best way to go for most people. The caveat is if you are leveraging an investments you believe will appreciate over the cost of capital. That would be speculation. 98% of cars are not investments but rather capital depreciating assets.

Encouraging lower income folks to buy a new car is not the best way to go, especially if they can't get a loan.

Since no one here is jumping in and saying they WOULD or COULD want to do it, perhaps the people it "helps" are hypothetical.

Posted by: Lou W Jun 19 2009, 04:50 PM

No, rationed healthcare is more like it.



I thought kalifornia did the Cash for Clunkers back in the 70's.

Posted by: SLITS Jun 19 2009, 04:57 PM

Yeh Lou .... It was a BAR Program, but they would only give you $1000 (cheapskates).

Let's see, you had to own it for 2 years, be in current license, wouldn't pass smog, had to have operable brakes, could move under it's own power for 50' and stop, had to have driver's seat and window & some other stuff as I remember.

Posted by: Porcharu Jun 19 2009, 04:59 PM

They still do - I sold my 81' Volvo and bought a mint 80' to replace it. I would consider buying a new car with this program but the only car that I am remotely interested is a Z06 vette. I could buy a new truck with this program but my 02' gets almost 10MPG better than a new one so that makes no sense at all (and I am boycotting Ford for political reasons that can't be discussed here.)
Steve

BTW taxes are paid to protect our liberty - not to help people who wont get off their ass and work.

Posted by: SLITS Jun 19 2009, 05:00 PM

***Post selfdestructed due to political content***

Thank you Mr. Phelps

Posted by: Cairo94507 Jun 19 2009, 05:04 PM

Yet another example of redistribution of wealth. My wife and I pay for everything we have. We live within our means. No one has ever bought me anything; no student loans, nothing. I paid my way through post-graduate school beginning with junior college. I bought my own cars, houses, etc. Yet, here we go again with US taxpayers paying for people to have a new car. Sorry, had to get that out.

Why the government can't put out public information messages teaching people to live within their means and pay their own way is beyond me. Think about it, we have gone from a society where a bankruptcy was something that was shameful and to be avoided at all cost to something that people apparently deserve and are entitled to when they spend well beyond their means and don't pay their bills. Do you want "those pesky bill collectors to stop calling you"? Pay your damn bills!

Well that drove this off the cliff I guess- sorry.

Posted by: Lou W Jun 19 2009, 05:07 PM

Cool dog, Michael

Posted by: tat2dphreak Jun 19 2009, 05:27 PM

Michael, I agree with you to an extent... people should live within their means, and earn what they have... as you and I both do... I don't, however, automatically assume everyone who receives the benefits of our taxes is unworthy of them... I worked 3 jobs to get through college, but when I got laid off in February, I did draw unemployment benefits... now I'm back working... all is well... but many of the people who receive benefits are not just sucking off the system to live forever.. and if they are, it's not much of a living... it's not the way most of us live anyway...

the government does need to educate people on how to avoid debt problems... but that won't alleviate the need to help those in need... one can't assume that the people that benefit from the sliver of your check the government takes is unworthy of the assistance.

Posted by: RobW Jun 19 2009, 05:56 PM

Unemployment in your case did exactly what it needed to do and for that, its awesome. A stand up person looks through a tough situation and makes things work.

Likewise, living within your means IS the way to go, contrary to what Madison Ave pushes. You and I could give a Dr. Evil type gathering on living within your means, but I'd bet no one would take us up on it.

Back to this Cash for Clunkers thing, it seems like more people that weigh in, the more I'm seeing folks that either can't (doesn't make cents), or won't (doesn't make sense).

Let me try something different, if you wanted to increase car sales and fuel efficiency, how would you redistribute the dollars?

Posted by: tat2dphreak Jun 19 2009, 06:13 PM

I think you are asking the wrong crowd if they would use this program.... I think the program is good, but it should apply to newer used cars as well, so that the guy driving the shitty dodge can trade up into a used car that has already eaten int depreciation... most of us wouldn't use this program, that doesn't mean it's bad... I saw no less than 10 cars on the way home that were in this year range in traffic and more than half of them needed some work... smokey muffler, wrecked and not fixed... that was only within the 10 miles I drive to work, and not on any highways... so it wasn't like I was in a sea of cars to see that many... those people could really benefit, in theory

if this program would have been around 3 years ago, I'd have used it on my old POS Sebring, to help get my wife's CR-V... yes, the CRV gets better gas milage.

the program, imo could be better if you could trade up used instead of buying new... also, some of the cars may have nothing wrong, and still be very low emissions... my sebring would have been an example... if the government is buying these cars, maybe it can afford to go through hem and see if those can be resold at deep discounts... they can either turn a profit on those or qualify buyers based on needs to do a even swap for junky old cars... they might not trade in the 1988 oldsmobile if they are forced to get a payment... but if they could trade it in on a 98 oldsmobile on an near-even swap to improve gas milage... they might be willing to part with a car that probably should be retired... I say that because here there's charities that will take any clunker, give you a huge tax write off for donating it, and then resell/junk the car to fund the charity..