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914World.com _ 914World Garage _ vw clutch?
Posted by: tat2dphreak Mar 8 2004, 03:32 PM
is there a VW clutch disc that is a direct swap for the more expensive porsche product?
yes, I know that the part is only about $130... I'm Cheap! 
Posted by: ArtechnikA Mar 8 2004, 03:38 PM
yes, I know that the part is only about $130... I'm Cheap!
there's the 914.4 4-spring version that's half the cost at $65...
Posted by: tat2dphreak Mar 8 2004, 03:43 PM
ahh... is there a huge difference in feel? I have a six spring now, and was only looking at those, but if there's not much difference...
Posted by: Mark Henry Mar 8 2004, 04:12 PM
yes, I know that the part is only about $130... I'm Cheap!
NOPE!
Just looked today in fact!
Nothing interchanges with a VW (whole assy) except the pilot bearing, felt washer and main seal.
Posted by: tat2dphreak Mar 8 2004, 04:47 PM
ok... then is it worth the $60 extra to go for the 6 spring clutch? how is it different? feel? smoothness? 
Posted by: ArtechnikA Mar 8 2004, 04:53 PM
i have no idea. i never changed the clutch in my 4 and all my 6's had 6-spring plates.
the guys who sell both say the high-priced spread is better. is it $60 better ? i donno. if i did a lot of stop-n-go combat-zone commute driving, i'd want the smoothest clutch available. if i did a lot of track driving, i'd probably want the lightest disk available.
what's your application ?
hopefully someone who's tried both will be able to offer an opinion.
first you asked for availability of a cheaper part, which an easy search turned up for you. now you want comparisons and product evaluations. i can't help you there ...
Posted by: Mark Henry Mar 8 2004, 05:46 PM
I had a NOS (new old stock) 4 spring and it just fits because of the large center hub, but I also have other (used) 4 springs that don't have the big hub. This become an issue with older reground flywheels.
If it's the Non-big hub they are just OK for a stock app.
Anything Hipo or even stock AX I would go with a 6 spring for sure.
Posted by: SirAndy Mar 8 2004, 10:46 PM
i used to have the 4-spring clutch and it worked just fine until i had oil getting all over it.
i replaced it with a 6-spring and it may be a bit smoother, but if it is, it's very subtle.
if you have Lots-O-More HP than i do, results may differ more ...
Andy
Posted by: tat2dphreak Mar 9 2004, 08:48 AM
cool, a 4-spring will be fine I'm sure... the engine will only be about a 100 hp(guessing) it's a 2.0 with 96mm pistons(making it a 2056) and a stock grind cam.
the car is just going to be street/highway driving, nothing over about 70-80mph
ArtechnikA, I originally assumed that b/c I pulled a 6-spring off, that a 6 spring had to go back... that's why I only looked at the $130 clutch disk... then I poked around (after your mentioned the 4-spring) more and realized they could be swapped... I appreciate your help! if I was going to auto-x I would definately get the 6-spring... and I may still yet.. I'm in decisive 
Posted by: davep Mar 9 2004, 09:31 AM
The four spring disk is original for all 914/4. You don't need anything more. The six spring 911 design fits the application and offers more "give" for the greater torque of the six. So a stock 914/4 will not see any significant improvement. I've installed a fair number of each, and can say you will not notice a difference. Especially not a $60 difference.
AFAIK, the springs or rubber center transfer the torque from the friction disk to the transmission mainshaft. There are there to cushion shocks due to rapid changes in speed. This is especially true when the clutch is engaged. It is primarily responsible for reducing clutch slip when changing gears. They prolong the life of the drivetrain. The greater the torque being transmitted, the stonger the springs need to be.
Posted by: tat2dphreak Mar 9 2004, 09:37 AM
that settles it, I'll save my 60$ for some other crap I'm sure to need...
I have a good, used Pressure plate and t/o bearing... should be no problem using these again, right?
Posted by: Freedom Mar 9 2004, 10:02 AM
so you cannot use any type 4 stuff for the clutch, becasue of the tranny?
Posted by: Mark Henry Mar 9 2004, 10:08 AM
The T4 PP OD is too small and has no pins.
The disc has a different offset in the center and the bearing is different design.
Posted by: davep Mar 9 2004, 10:43 AM
When I replace the clutch I usually find that the flywheel needs resurfacing, and this is a precision operation. The height of the PP mounting surface, over the working surface, must be brought back to spec after the working surface has been renewed. This means that the amount of wear plus machining of the working surface must be removed from the mounting surface, otherwise the pressure plate cannot exert the proper pressure on the disc. This may mean you will have to shim the pivot ball on the tranny.
Whenever I pull the flywheel, I replace the crank seal, pilot bearing, felt seal, O-ring, big 5 hole lock washer, and the five bolts. Loctite the bolts, you don't need a failure like I had one time.
I also replace the plastic ball cup in the throw-out arm, and often replace the bushings for the throw-out bearing.
I usually have the pressure plate rebuilt at the same time. It depends on the wear of the diaphragm spring and on the working surface. It can be a major exercise, but you only want to do it once. Using worn parts can cause a premature failure of the new parts and that will cost a lot more than doing the entire job right the first time.
Non 914 parts don't work here. A 411 clutch will not stand up to a 914 2.0 engine, BTDT in a 411. My old 411 got the 2.0 transplant after the 1.7 broke a valve. It was a rocket, and the wife could outdrag a lot of guys trying to get around her at stoplights. Our old 81 Firebird with V8 was not as fast off the line. Everything from a 411 is wrong in a 914, and I suspect the same is true for the type 2 van. 
Posted by: tat2dphreak Mar 9 2004, 11:26 AM
Whenever I pull the flywheel, I replace the crank seal, pilot bearing, felt seal, O-ring, big 5 hole lock washer, and the five bolts. Loctite the bolts, you don't need a failure like I had one time.
I also replace the plastic ball cup in the throw-out arm, and often replace the bushings for the throw-out bearing.
I usually have the pressure plate rebuilt at the same time. It depends on the wear of the diaphragm spring and on the working surface. It can be a major exercise, but you only want to do it once. Using worn parts can cause a premature failure of the new parts and that will cost a lot more than doing the entire job right the first time.
on the fly wheel... how will I know if it needs to be resurfaced? the engine I am pulling the flywheel off has had a fairly recent clutch job(supposedly, according to the PO) and the clutching mechanism was working fine... I am putting it onto an engine that was very recently rebuilt, so I don't think I'll need the rear seal, I plan to do all of the other stuff you mentioned though:
I bought an extra pressure plate(used) and T/O bearing (used).. the press. plate looks almost new, only shows signs of wear on the teeth, less than 1/4" looks worn. should this be rebuilt? replaced?
the T/O bearing looks new as well... spins freely.
if the flywheel needs resurfaced, who can do this? or should I just buy a new one?
Posted by: davep Mar 9 2004, 12:20 PM
The flywheel or pressure plate may need to be resurfaced if there are ridges, cracks or glazed spots present. An automotive machine shop should do the work on the flywheel, but he needs the height spec to do it correctly. I don't have that number handy. The PP should be examined by a knowledgeable person such as a mechanic. There are specialized rebuilders for these. Probably best to just trade in and get a rebuilt one. Any significant wear on the fingers is a good excuse to replace it. Some of this is a judgement call that requires a close examination by an "expert". Most mechanics these days only know automatics.
On the flywheel, most can be resurfaced. However, these are now getting old, and who is to tell how many times they have been resurfaced already. It will have to be measured to be certain. New ones are big bucks. They are worn out when there is no clearance left for the bolts and the lock washer. You cant run without the lock washer.
I would replace the seal as a matter of course. It would have to be absolutely perfect to not replace it.
Posted by: Mark Henry Mar 9 2004, 12:36 PM
I know I've posted this many times before but here it is again.
Attached image(s)
Posted by: tat2dphreak Mar 9 2004, 12:56 PM
ok, so I guess I'll take the flywheel to a shop around here, or get a new one if needed... I'll have Wes look at the flywheel and PP to see if they are ok...
the seal I can't imagine needing changed, the engine only has 1500 miles on it since a complete rebuild.
Posted by: Mark Henry Mar 9 2004, 06:35 PM
The seal should be OK if you only have 1500 miles on the old one.
BUT if you do have to replace the flywheel (and you shouldn't if the rebuild was done proper) I would replace the seal anyways.
Still get a new Oring and washer if you have to take the fly off.
Posted by: davep Mar 9 2004, 10:00 PM
Thanks for the extra info Mark. I have saved the picture for my own quick reference.
I asked Raby, in another thread, about the flywheel bolts. He has better bolts than the factory. I had reused bolts on one job and they came loose a few days later doing some damage to the case. I was away on holidays at the time, so the customer had another shop fix it and bill me. That was a big expense, so I never reuse them any more. I was told by Stoddard's shop manager to Loctite them next time. Obviously a known failure point, so now you know, you have no excuse to copy my failure.
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