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914World.com _ 914World Garage _ Fuel Tank Crud? Redoing Fuel Lines, Etc.
Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Aug 20 2009, 08:55 AM
So, in my continuing fuel starvation saga (another thread), I'm almost ready to rebuild the webers. Rode her hard again yesterday, and she ran pretty nicely for awhile and eventually started to starve very hard at really hard throttle. Took a very good look in the tank, and the walls look pristine, but in the circular baffle area where the sock is, there were many very tiny pieces of black crud, and the sock, though very hard to see well, looked pretty dark too.
Opinions?
Also, I'm thinking that since my fuel filter was pretty clean, that the sock might be my real problem...should take care of that before making the carbs clean and possibly getting more crap in them.
If I do pull the tank and replace the sock, shouldn't I replace the fuel line back to the engine? Any threads on that? Can I just hook a new line up to the old and pull it through?
Thanks in advance,
Ken
Posted by: jmill Aug 20 2009, 12:45 PM
Explain this "starvation" you have. Does it just bog down or do you get pops out of the carb too. No lean pops and just bogging means too much fuel or ignition issues.
Starvation with carbs happens when the fuel supply can't fill the float bowl as fast as it's used. You suck down the float bowl and your mains run lean. You then get a bunch of pops and snaps from the carbs. The engine then usually dies because the idle jets get their fuel from the main fuel wells and those are too low already. You then can't start your car until the fuel system fills the float bowls up again.
Pull out one of your ETs and let us know what main and ac jet your running along with what ET you have. They are easy to remove. All you need is a standard screwdriver. Be careful when you reinstall it. Be gentle and don't cross thread it.
I'm trying to help you here but you haven't answered this question from your other thread. There seems to be a few threads of yours on this same issue. It would be a bummer if you go through the work of changing the sock and that wasn't your issue. Starvation usually happens after a hard acceleration in one of the higher gears. In another thread you said it happens more often in first gear which has me wondering if it truely is a fuel starvation issue. It would help if you explained what happens.
Either way if your sock is clobbered change it. You can even remove and clean it if it's in one piece.
Posted by: Cevan Aug 20 2009, 12:48 PM
Don't bother cleaning the sock. If you go through the trouble of removing it, just replace it. They're something like $7. And IIRC, there is a crush washer built into the end of the sock.
Posted by: 9146986 Aug 20 2009, 12:49 PM
Find a radiator shop that will clean and seal your tank, and change the strainer sock at that time. I would probably replace all the rubber fuel lines regardless, and put in a new fuel filter too, after you have the tank cleaned.
No you can't just pull new lines through. There are plastic lines in the tunnel and the flex lines connect to them. There's enough evidence to support a bias against keeping the stock plastic lines, particularly if the visible portion of your plastic lines are at all brittle.
Chris Foley - CFR a banner advertiser on this site, makes an excellent set of stainless fuel lines that will last longer than you. If you have carbs, and never ever plan to go back to FI, or never ever plan to run a return fuel line (not needed for street car), you can use just a single fuel line.
Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Aug 20 2009, 02:44 PM
Sorry...didn't see the other post you made on that thread. It sounds exactly like what you're describing in your second paragraph...I get the pops and snaps and then it starts to completely die until I let off. On the way home from CT. it did completely die, and I had to wait 10 minutes to restart it. Then it was "OK" as long as I just maintained a steady pedal and no hills showed up to tax it or cause me to give it more gas.
Let me go pull an ET and get back to you...thanks a million.
Does the condition of my fuel tank sound good, bad...? Like I said, the tank looks nice and shiny, but the area surrounding the sock looks a little dirty and the sock looks dark.
Explain this "starvation" you have. Does it just bog down or do you get pops out of the carb too. No lean pops and just bogging means too much fuel or ignition issues.
Starvation with carbs happens when the fuel supply can't fill the float bowl as fast as it's used. You suck down the float bowl and your mains run lean. You then get a bunch of pops and snaps from the carbs. The engine then usually dies because the idle jets get their fuel from the main fuel wells and those are too low already. You then can't start your car until the fuel system fills the float bowls up again.
Pull out one of your ETs and let us know what main and ac jet your running along with what ET you have. They are easy to remove. All you need is a standard screwdriver. Be careful when you reinstall it. Be gentle and don't cross thread it.
I'm trying to help you here but you haven't answered this question from your other thread. There seems to be a few threads of yours on this same issue. It would be a bummer if you go through the work of changing the sock and that wasn't your issue. Starvation usually happens after a hard acceleration in one of the higher gears. In another thread you said it happens more often in first gear which has me wondering if it truely is a fuel starvation issue. It would help if you explained what happens.
Either way if your sock is clobbered change it. You can even remove and clean it if it's in one piece.
Posted by: jmill Aug 20 2009, 03:08 PM
Sounds like your on the right track. If the tank is shiney I wouldn't mess with it. Replace the sock and wipe out the gunk around it. I would change the fuel lines myself. It's cheap insurance. Are you going to upgrade that fuel pump? If the sock replacement doesn't fix it thats what I'd change next provided your carbs are set up correctly.
Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Aug 20 2009, 03:09 PM
Main= 115
AC Jet = 200
ET = F11
Looked at all pieces with a jeweler's loop and they look spotless.
Explain this "starvation" you have. Does it just bog down or do you get pops out of the carb too. No lean pops and just bogging means too much fuel or ignition issues.
Starvation with carbs happens when the fuel supply can't fill the float bowl as fast as it's used. You suck down the float bowl and your mains run lean. You then get a bunch of pops and snaps from the carbs. The engine then usually dies because the idle jets get their fuel from the main fuel wells and those are too low already. You then can't start your car until the fuel system fills the float bowls up again.
Pull out one of your ETs and let us know what main and ac jet your running along with what ET you have. They are easy to remove. All you need is a standard screwdriver. Be careful when you reinstall it. Be gentle and don't cross thread it.
I'm trying to help you here but you haven't answered this question from your other thread. There seems to be a few threads of yours on this same issue. It would be a bummer if you go through the work of changing the sock and that wasn't your issue. Starvation usually happens after a hard acceleration in one of the higher gears. In another thread you said it happens more often in first gear which has me wondering if it truely is a fuel starvation issue. It would help if you explained what happens.
Either way if your sock is clobbered change it. You can even remove and clean it if it's in one piece.
Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Aug 20 2009, 03:14 PM
I have to believe the carbs are set up correctly as it was "built" in 1989, not a new build. The car was brought out of storage by a team of Porsche techs who have been rebuilding and fixing Porsches for almost 40 years. It ran great until I filled it up a few hundred miles after leaving CT on my way back to MD. That's when the trouble started. It was either bad gas or the fresh fuel (vs. old fuel with StaBil in it) loosened up enough crap to clog the sock, or carb or fuel pump. The filter element had about 5-10% of it covered with microscopic black crud, but was (of course) 90-95% clear. I figure it;s most likely the sock or the carbs, So far, the emulsion tube with main and AC jets looks clean as does the idle jet I pulled. Since the filter was relatively clean, I'm thinking (and I'm far from an expert here), that the crud is in the sock.
Sounds like your on the right track. If the tank is shiney I wouldn't mess with it. Replace the sock and wipe out the gunk around it. I would change the fuel lines myself. It's cheap insurance. Are you going to upgrade that fuel pump? If the sock replacement doesn't fix it thats what I'd change next provided your carbs are set up correctly.
Posted by: jmill Aug 20 2009, 03:19 PM
Main jet seems small to me. I'd run a 1.25.
Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Aug 20 2009, 03:25 PM
Educate me on that. It's a 1.7 with a 1911 big bore kit. I'm assuming the jetting was done back in 1989 when all the work was done. Even if a 1.25 would be an improvement, it certainly isn't my current problem, is it?
Main jet seems small to me. I'd run a 1.25.
Posted by: silverteener Aug 20 2009, 04:08 PM
I had a fuel starvation problem. Finally looked inside my tank and found the problem. I would pull the tank and have it boiled and sealed. it solved my problem anyway. If your tank has never been pulled and the lines replaced it would be time well spent anyway. Good luck
Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Aug 20 2009, 04:20 PM
What did your tank look like? Like I said...mine looks beautiful other than some micro flakes around the base near the sock and the sock looks "dark" and collapsed to me.
I had a fuel starvation problem. Finally looked inside my tank and found the problem. I would pull the tank and have it boiled and sealed. it solved my problem anyway. If your tank has never been pulled and the lines replaced it would be time well spent anyway. Good luck
Posted by: jmill Aug 20 2009, 05:21 PM
Educate me on that. It's a 1.7 with a 1911 big bore kit. I'm assuming the jetting was done back in 1989 when all the work was done. Even if a 1.25 would be an improvement, it certainly isn't my current problem, is it?
Having mains that are too small will cause those same symptoms. You can verify that by idling your engine for a few minutes and then rev the engine up close to redline and hold it there for a few seconds. Try it unloaded and loaded. If you get a lean pop you can be pretty sure your not getting enough fuel from your mains. Holding it at high RPM for a few seconds takes the accel pumps out of the equation. They can mask small mains if you don't hold it there for a bit. Just be sure to let it idle for a minute before you do the test. Starvation due to fuel delivery problems takes longer to happen because you need to draw down the float bowls to make it happen. If you get no pop in the test your mains aren't the issue.
Look hear: http://www.triumphspitfire.com/jets.html
Check out the Fiat jet sizing. The Fiat ran a 40 idf with 125 mains and 210 ac jet with 32 vents an F11 ET. Swapping to a 210 ac jet will lean you up a bit more at high rpm.
I personally think you have a combination of fuel delivery and carb issues.
Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Aug 20 2009, 05:27 PM
Here's a shot I just took of my sock and surrounding area. The sock looks crimped and dark to me. See the specs on the floor? The rest of the tank looks unrusted for sure, but the guy kept it filled and Stabil'd, so I'n guessing it should. Whattaya think?
Educate me on that. It's a 1.7 with a 1911 big bore kit. I'm assuming the jetting was done back in 1989 when all the work was done. Even if a 1.25 would be an improvement, it certainly isn't my current problem, is it?
Having mains that are too small will cause those same symptoms. You can verify that by idling your engine for a few minutes and then rev the engine up close to redline and hold it there for a few seconds. Try it unloaded and loaded. If you get a lean pop you can be pretty sure your not getting enough fuel from your mains. Holding it at high RPM for a few seconds takes the accel pumps out of the equation. They can mask small mains if you don't hold it there for a bit. Just be sure to let it idle for a minute before you do the test. Starvation due to fuel delivery problems takes longer to happen because you need to draw down the float bowls to make it happen. If you get no pop in the test your mains aren't the issue.
Look hear: http://www.triumphspitfire.com/jets.html
Check out the Fiat jet sizing. The Fiat ran a 40 idf with 125 mains and 210 ac jet with 32 vents an F11 ET. Swapping to a 210 ac jet will lean you up a bit more at high rpm.
I personally think you have a combination of fuel delivery and carb issues.
Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Aug 20 2009, 05:30 PM
I'll do the test later, but since she's fine for a few minutes...even 5-10 and will go close to redline, it sounds (thanks to the education I;m getting from you) like it's more the floats slowing draining down.
Educate me on that. It's a 1.7 with a 1911 big bore kit. I'm assuming the jetting was done back in 1989 when all the work was done. Even if a 1.25 would be an improvement, it certainly isn't my current problem, is it?
Having mains that are too small will cause those same symptoms. You can verify that by idling your engine for a few minutes and then rev the engine up close to redline and hold it there for a few seconds. Try it unloaded and loaded. If you get a lean pop you can be pretty sure your not getting enough fuel from your mains. Holding it at high RPM for a few seconds takes the accel pumps out of the equation. They can mask small mains if you don't hold it there for a bit. Just be sure to let it idle for a minute before you do the test. Starvation due to fuel delivery problems takes longer to happen because you need to draw down the float bowls to make it happen. If you get no pop in the test your mains aren't the issue.
Look hear: http://www.triumphspitfire.com/jets.html
Check out the Fiat jet sizing. The Fiat ran a 40 idf with 125 mains and 210 ac jet with 32 vents an F11 ET. Swapping to a 210 ac jet will lean you up a bit more at high rpm.
I personally think you have a combination of fuel delivery and carb issues.
Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Aug 20 2009, 06:16 PM
Alright...went out to do the "test". I idled her for 3-4 minutes. As I apply throttle, she starts to break up, pop and backfire (seems to be carbs and exhaust) at around 3,000 RPM, and seem to want to freeze at 3,000 or so, and even start to lose RPM. If I just keep punching her further, she seems to get beyond that behavior and rev right on up close to redline where I can hold her for a good bit of time. This is the same as when I drive her...she starts to "eff up" around 3,000-3,500 RPM, and if I just force her , she goes beyond that up to redline.
Posted by: jmill Aug 20 2009, 06:49 PM
Transition issues. What size idle jet? Check your float level and bump up your mains.
You are getting a lean transition when you go from idle jet to main jet. You need to make sure your float level isn't low. After that try bumping up your main jet to 125 or 130.
Having a low float level delays when you come on the main jets. Then you pop at @ 3K. If your float level is good bump up your main jets. I personally think they are too small. I'd go with 130's and then go smaller from there. It'll run ok if they're a bit too big. It pops and stutters or you burn up stuff if they're a bit too small.
Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Aug 20 2009, 07:15 PM
I'll check the idle jets in awhile and post it. How do I check the float level (11mm) without redoing the gasket, etc.? Can the low float level be because of the sock being blocked or not. What did you think about the photo of the sock and surrounding area? Normal stuff?
Transition issues. What size idle jet? Check your float level and bump up your mains.
You are getting a lean transition when you go from idle jet to main jet. You need to make sure your float level isn't low. After that try bumping up your main jet to 125 or 130.
Having a low float level delays when you come on the main jets. Then you pop at @ 3K. If your float level is good bump up your main jets. I personally think they are too small. I'd go with 130's and then go smaller from there. It'll run ok if they're a bit too big. It pops and stutters or you burn up stuff if they're a bit too small.
Posted by: cwpeden Aug 20 2009, 07:31 PM
I also had stavation and stalling, mind you it was on a 2.0 with FI, but this is the strainer compared to a new one. Not a problem since. $8.
Check my post:
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?act=ST&f=2&t=85090&hl=&view=findpost&p=1045406
Posted by: jmill Aug 20 2009, 07:33 PM
Changing the sock and fuel line is a good idea. I'd even change out your fuel pump. Unfortunately, thats not your problem. You can't adjust float level without cracking the carb open. You can assume it's fine and go with larger mains and see what happens. You'll be out the cost of the jets if that wasn't your problem. You will have gotten away with not cracking open the carb if it was. I do have to say a lot of guys with lean transition issues seem to be running a 115 main and a F11 ET. Thats what comes in the 40 when they come from Weber. I always wondered why when IMHO the 125 was the more suitable jet. I guess it's so they can sell you more jets.
Posted by: silverteener Aug 20 2009, 07:36 PM
my tank was way worse than that. You never know that sock could be plugged. I guess if all else fails replace it. It takes a bit of labor but is a cheap fix. The socks are only around 8 dollars. good luck!
Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Aug 20 2009, 08:38 PM
Idle jet is a 50.
I'll check the idle jets in awhile and post it. How do I check the float level (11mm) without redoing the gasket, etc.? Can the low float level be because of the sock being blocked or not. What did you think about the photo of the sock and surrounding area? Normal stuff?
Transition issues. What size idle jet? Check your float level and bump up your mains.
You are getting a lean transition when you go from idle jet to main jet. You need to make sure your float level isn't low. After that try bumping up your main jet to 125 or 130.
Having a low float level delays when you come on the main jets. Then you pop at @ 3K. If your float level is good bump up your main jets. I personally think they are too small. I'd go with 130's and then go smaller from there. It'll run ok if they're a bit too big. It pops and stutters or you burn up stuff if they're a bit too small.
Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Aug 20 2009, 08:46 PM
I accept that the larger jet would be a good move, but keep going back to the fact that the car ran fine from CT to NJ. Then I filled her up with 93 and she started having rpoblems within 20-30 miles. It could be coincidental, but I have to assume that jet size, valve adjustment, etc. had nothing to do with what went sour at that point. I;ve had experiences in the past where the circumstances and evidence were simply wrong, but logic tells me it is a fuel problem...bad fuel (not likely, especially since the problem is RPM specific), or a fuel starvation problem within a specific RPM range. If it runs well at higher RPM than its probably not even the sock. Can it be electrical?
Changing the sock and fuel line is a good idea. I'd even change out your fuel pump. Unfortunately, thats not your problem. You can't adjust float level without cracking the carb open. You can assume it's fine and go with larger mains and see what happens. You'll be out the cost of the jets if that wasn't your problem. You will have gotten away with not cracking open the carb if it was. I do have to say a lot of guys with lean transition issues seem to be running a 115 main and a F11 ET. Thats what comes in the 40 when they come from Weber. I always wondered why when IMHO the 125 was the more suitable jet. I guess it's so they can sell you more jets.
Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Aug 20 2009, 08:48 PM
Is it sufficient information to order "125 main jets for an IDF 40", or do I need any more specific information like the full carb ID number?
Changing the sock and fuel line is a good idea. I'd even change out your fuel pump. Unfortunately, thats not your problem. You can't adjust float level without cracking the carb open. You can assume it's fine and go with larger mains and see what happens. You'll be out the cost of the jets if that wasn't your problem. You will have gotten away with not cracking open the carb if it was. I do have to say a lot of guys with lean transition issues seem to be running a 115 main and a F11 ET. Thats what comes in the 40 when they come from Weber. I always wondered why when IMHO the 125 was the more suitable jet. I guess it's so they can sell you more jets.
Posted by: jmill Aug 20 2009, 09:41 PM
I accept that the larger jet would be a good move, but keep going back to the fact that the car ran fine from CT to NJ. Then I filled her up with 93 and she started having rpoblems within 20-30 miles. It could be coincidental, but I have to assume that jet size, valve adjustment, etc. had nothing to do with what went sour at that point. I;ve had experiences in the past where the circumstances and evidence were simply wrong, but logic tells me it is a fuel problem...bad fuel (not likely, especially since the problem is RPM specific), or a fuel starvation problem within a specific RPM range. If it runs well at higher RPM than its probably not even the sock. Can it be electrical?
I agree with you here. This one has me scratching my head. It sounds like a lean transition issue but you would have had it from the start if it was jet sizing. Does it only pop from one carb or a specific barrel? Check the accelerator pump discharge. Are the streams equal and even?
If you want to buy new jets you don't have to get that specific. Just tell them you want jets for an IDF Weber. If your sure it ran great before you might want to hold off spending money on jets and crack those carbs open. You have the parts and the book. If it's worth chancing $30 not to then try the bigger jets.
Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Aug 20 2009, 09:50 PM
I'll have to listen to those pops and crackles form the engine compartment instead of the drivers seat and let you know. How do I check the accelerator pump discharges?
I agree with you here. This one has me scratching my head. It sounds like a lean transition issue but you would have had it from the start if it was jet sizing. Does it only pop from one carb or a specific barrel? Check the accelerator pump discharge. Are the streams equal and even?
If you want to buy new jets you don't have to get that specific. Just tell them you want jets for an IDF Weber. If your sure it ran great before you might want to hold off spending money on jets and crack those carbs open. You have the parts and the book. If it's worth chancing $30 not to then try the bigger jets.
[/quote]
Posted by: jmill Aug 20 2009, 09:55 PM
Pull off the air cleaners, look down the carb and open the butterflies with the engine off. You should see a stream shoot down each venturi. Make sure they both look the same and are nice even streams.
Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Aug 20 2009, 10:14 PM
Tomorrow...thanks.
Pull off the air cleaners, look down the carb and open the butterflies with the engine off. You should see a stream shoot down each venturi. Make sure they both look the same and are nice even streams.
Posted by: Racer Chris Aug 21 2009, 08:53 AM
I personally think you have a combination of fuel delivery and carb issues.
115 mains are too small even for a 1.7 IMO.
Get a new sock and get the bigger main jets. Do both at the same time!
That will more than likely make the engine run a whole lot better.
You can consider the rest of the suggested upgrades down the road.
Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Aug 21 2009, 10:11 AM
Just ordered the 125 mains. I'm going to do one thing at a time so I'll know better what the issue was (hopefully "was"). I'm pretty sure the problem won't be solved by the bigger mains, just because of the circumstances of how the problem showed up...unless the introduction of 2009 93 octane fuel to her old system really effed with her ability to drink. Now...gotta go out and check the pumps.
I personally think you have a combination of fuel delivery and carb issues.
115 mains are too small even for a 1.7 IMO.
Get a new sock and get the bigger main jets. Do both at the same time!
That will more than likely make the engine run a whole lot better.
You can consider the rest of the suggested upgrades down the road.
Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Aug 21 2009, 04:35 PM
OK...checked the accelerator pumps and they are all nice and even. #3 might be a tad less, but even that looks close. So, I fire her up to see where the pops are coming from while watching the barrels. As I'm goosing the throttle, I'm getting gas on my finger from the barrel over piston #1. I tighten up the clamp and she stops leaking. As I'm revving her up, it's obvious that the left bank of cylinders (#1 & #2) are running rough, and the carb pops are coming from the same side. As I continue to rev her I notice what looks like a third emulsion tube emerging! It's the freaking stud that holds down the carb top !!! Guess that will cause some roughness, huh? Tighten down everything and put the air cleaners back on. She's MUCH better (not perfect), and I'm realizing that somebody was probably cleaned out the carbs after the long storage and did a half assed job. I've ordered the 125 mains too. I'll let ya'll know what happens from here. Guessing they need being broken down and put back together with some care.
I accept that the larger jet would be a good move, but keep going back to the fact that the car ran fine from CT to NJ. Then I filled her up with 93 and she started having rpoblems within 20-30 miles. It could be coincidental, but I have to assume that jet size, valve adjustment, etc. had nothing to do with what went sour at that point. I;ve had experiences in the past where the circumstances and evidence were simply wrong, but logic tells me it is a fuel problem...bad fuel (not likely, especially since the problem is RPM specific), or a fuel starvation problem within a specific RPM range. If it runs well at higher RPM than its probably not even the sock. Can it be electrical?
I agree with you here. This one has me scratching my head. It sounds like a lean transition issue but you would have had it from the start if it was jet sizing. Does it only pop from one carb or a specific barrel? Check the accelerator pump discharge. Are the streams equal and even?
If you want to buy new jets you don't have to get that specific. Just tell them you want jets for an IDF Weber. If your sure it ran great before you might want to hold off spending money on jets and crack those carbs open. You have the parts and the book. If it's worth chancing $30 not to then try the bigger jets.
Posted by: jmill Aug 21 2009, 05:23 PM
I'm glad you got it figured out. With the addition of the larger jets and some tuning I bet you'll get them where they need to be. Read the section on adjusting the idle mixture screws and your linkage. Once you get those dialed in you'll be extremely happy with their performance.
Going through the carbs would be wise. Mainly because you'll have an intimate knowledge of the parts involved and how they work. You'll be able to tune and troubleshoot easily.
Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Aug 21 2009, 05:25 PM
I REALLY appreciate everybody's help, but especially yours. You've been there steadily...thanks.
Ken
I'm glad you got it figured out. With the addition of the larger jets and some tuning I bet you'll get them where they need to be. Read the section on adjusting the idle mixture screws and your linkage. Once you get those dialed in you'll be extremely happy with their performance.
Going through the carbs would be wise. Mainly because you'll have an intimate knowledge of the parts involved and how they work. You'll be able to tune and troubleshoot easily.
Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Aug 23 2009, 11:45 AM
UPDATE...I just drove her for the first time since the tightening up. It's absolutley 80% better. She still seems to starve at certain points and a dose of full throttle punches through that. Also some decel pop that sounds more like exhaust pop than carb pop, though I still get a surprise carb pop every once in a while. The strongest evidence of an ongoing problem showed up when I returned to the garage. In neutral, sitting still, she'll rev all the way up to redline very smoothly as long as she has only been asked to do that infrequently, or after a rest. If I try that repeatedly without a "break", she does her starving act. After my education on here, I;m assuming that's pretty obviously the float chamber not having time to refill, right? If I;' correct, that could be the floats/chambers themselves, or some aspect of fuel deprivation (pump, sock, filter). Am I on target?
I'm glad you got it figured out. With the addition of the larger jets and some tuning I bet you'll get them where they need to be. Read the section on adjusting the idle mixture screws and your linkage. Once you get those dialed in you'll be extremely happy with their performance.
Going through the carbs would be wise. Mainly because you'll have an intimate knowledge of the parts involved and how they work. You'll be able to tune and troubleshoot easily.
Posted by: jmill Aug 23 2009, 10:25 PM
Your on target. I would opt for inadequate fuel supply or old accelerator pump diaphrams not springing back quickly. Run the accelerator pump test but pump it a few times back to back. Does it spray nice and even through a few pumps? If no it's time to replace them. If yes then do a hard acceleration through the gears Does it go lean in the higher gears? If yes change the sock and that clicky pump. I'd still recommend bumping up the mains.
Decel pop through exhaust is most likely an exhaust leak.
Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Aug 23 2009, 10:26 PM
Thanks...got my list of work.
Your on target. I would opt for inadequate fuel supply or old accelerator pump diaphrams not springing back quickly. Run the accelerator pump test but pump it a few times back to back. Does it spray nice and even through a few pumps? If no it's time to replace them. If yes then do a hard acceleration through the gears Does it go lean in the higher gears? If yes change the sock and that clicky pump. I'd still recommend bumping up the mains.
Decel pop through exhaust is most likely an exhaust leak.
Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Aug 24 2009, 06:44 PM
So...the accelerator pump test went well. I changed the mains to the new 125s. Took her out and she was running so well I took her out on the highway. There were some rough moments but again I could "punch through" them with more throttle. On the way back I jumped off the highway and took a twistie back road route. All of a sudden she started to bog down / starve...couldn't even punch through. Eventually she totally quit on me. Acted as if she were out of gas. Had to get a flat bed ride home (Good old Haggerty insurance). She still has a good accelerator pump squirt, but will not start at all. She has a 1/4 tank of fuel (visually as well as gauge). I;m thinking fuel pump? She still has a click-click-click but it's much quieter and less rapid. CB rotary somebody said?
Your on target. I would opt for inadequate fuel supply or old accelerator pump diaphrams not springing back quickly. Run the accelerator pump test but pump it a few times back to back. Does it spray nice and even through a few pumps? If no it's time to replace them. If yes then do a hard acceleration through the gears Does it go lean in the higher gears? If yes change the sock and that clicky pump. I'd still recommend bumping up the mains.
Decel pop through exhaust is most likely an exhaust leak.
Posted by: jmill Aug 24 2009, 10:02 PM
The clicky pumps slow down and get quiet when they reach pressure (float bowl is full) or have a plugged suction. Good squirt from your pumps means there is fuel in the float bowls. I'm thinking your current problem is ignition related. 12v to the coil? Good spark?
Can you get it to turn over and run a bit on the accelerator pumps or does it not even stumble over?
Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Aug 24 2009, 10:10 PM
No idea how to assess whether there's 12v to the coil or good spark.
The clicky pumps slow down and get quiet when they reach pressure (float bowl is full) or have a plugged suction. Good squirt from your pumps means there is fuel in the float bowls. I'm thinking your current problem is ignition related. 12v to the coil? Good spark?
Posted by: jmill Aug 24 2009, 10:15 PM
Take a multimeter and check for 12V on the hot wire to the coil with the ignition in the on position. It'll be a spade type connector.
There are a couple of ways to check for spark. Some might have better ideas. I pull the plug and ground the threads and watch it jump the plug gap or just pull the wire and slide a small diameter phillips screwdriver in the connector and create a small gap between the metal shaft and a grounded part of the car and watch it arc. Either way be careful not to get zapped.
You'll need a partner to turn it over while you check for spark.
Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Aug 24 2009, 10:23 PM
Heading out to the garage.
Take a multimeter and check for 12V on the hot wire to the coil with the ignition in the on position. It'll be a spade type connector.
Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Aug 24 2009, 10:40 PM
Well...either I'm getting nothing or don't know what I'm doing (highly likely). I have an old multimeter, with an analog type dial. I touched the black lead to what I figured was a decent ground, and tried every one of the six or so spade connections on the coil. Nothing. During the whole time, the fuel pump never stopped clicking (ever so slowly). Maybe the AA battery in the meter was bad...I'll try this again in the AM.
Heading out to the garage.
Take a multimeter and check for 12V on the hot wire to the coil with the ignition in the on position. It'll be a spade type connector.
Posted by: jmill Aug 24 2009, 11:09 PM
On the older meters you only need the batteries for checking resistance (ohms). Touch the leads together on ohms setting and see if the needle pegs out. If not change the batteries and check again. Checking DC volts should use the circuits DC voltage to move the needle. A test light will work too but you can only see you have voltage not if it's low or not.
The coil will have a + marked on the 12V side. If you have no voltage there with the key in the run position you'll have to trace the circuit and find your problem. Others here are way more qualified than me to help you fix that.
Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Aug 24 2009, 11:13 PM
Thanks again.
On the older meters you only need the batteries for checking resistance (ohms). Touch the leads together on ohms setting and see if the needle pegs out. If not change the batteries and check again. Checking DC volts should use the circuits DC voltage to move the needle. A test light will work too but you can only see you have voltage not if it's low or not.
The coil will have a + marked on the 12V side. If you have no voltage there with the key in the run position you'll have to trace the circuit and find your problem. Others here are way more qualified than me to help you fix that.
Posted by: silverteener Aug 24 2009, 11:27 PM
Change the sock 
you never know! It looks like yours needs changed anyways. Most likely not your problem but it's the only advise I can give on this one. good luck!
Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Aug 25 2009, 08:42 AM
With my limited knowledge I still believe it's fuel related and not electrical. As soon as I figure out a responsible thing to do with 4 gallons of fuel, the tank is coming out...new sock...new fuel pump. Then, if things don't get better, I'll start somewhere else. New coil !
Change the sock
you never know! It looks like yours needs changed anyways. Most likely not your problem but it's the only advise I can give on this one. good luck! Posted by: jmill Aug 25 2009, 10:10 AM
Your car should at least turn over and try to start. Does it cough and sputter and then die? You should be able to run it on the accelerator pumps. If not you now have an ignition problem.
Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Aug 25 2009, 10:30 AM
It does not even try to start...no sputter, cough, etc. It does "sound" very different when I'm turning it over when I give it throttle vs. giving it none. Not sure how to describe it, but the tone changes very much. Even though the accelerator pumps are working, there's very little smell of gas like you'd expect. Maybe it's pumping something less than 100% gas?
Your car should at least turn over and try to start. Does it cough and sputter and then die? You should be able to run it on the accelerator pumps. If not you now have an ignition problem.
Posted by: neil30076 Aug 25 2009, 10:33 AM
It does not even try to start...no sputter, cough, etc. It does "sound" very different when I'm turning it over when I give it throttle vs. giving it none. Not sure how to describe it, but the tone changes very much. Even though the accelerator pumps are working, there's very little smell of gas like you'd expect. Maybe it's pumping something less than 100% gas?
Your car should at least turn over and try to start. Does it cough and sputter and then die? You should be able to run it on the accelerator pumps. If not you now have an ignition problem.
Probably asked before, but does it try to start with starter fluid sprayed in - I know others say don't use it - but at this point sounds like you have nothing to loose!
Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Aug 25 2009, 10:43 AM
Lemme go get some and try. It revs higher when I apply throttle vs. not applying any. Be right back.
It does not even try to start...no sputter, cough, etc. It does "sound" very different when I'm turning it over when I give it throttle vs. giving it none. Not sure how to describe it, but the tone changes very much. Even though the accelerator pumps are working, there's very little smell of gas like you'd expect. Maybe it's pumping something less than 100% gas?
Your car should at least turn over and try to start. Does it cough and sputter and then die? You should be able to run it on the accelerator pumps. If not you now have an ignition problem.
Probably asked before, but does it try to start with starter fluid sprayed in - I know others say don't use it - but at this point sounds like you have nothing to loose!
Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Aug 25 2009, 11:05 AM
Starter fluid did bupkiss, so it must be electrical. The dwell was fine...she has new plugs and wireset. Buy a new coil? Where do I go from here?
Posted by: jmill Aug 25 2009, 11:49 AM
You need to check for voltage at the coil. Use a test light if your meter is bad. At least you'll know you have voltage there.
Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Aug 25 2009, 12:55 PM
Going out to do that now...got the meter working now. Also bought a new coil...might as well make everything fresh anyway.
You need to check for voltage at the coil. Use a test light if your meter is bad. At least you'll know you have voltage there.
Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Aug 25 2009, 01:35 PM
I have 12 volts at the ignition side of the (brand new blue Bosch) coil. The points are opening on the cams. Although I'm still a rookie it looks like it has to be either the points or condensor at this point. What else could it be at this point? If it won't even shudder with starting fluid, and has new plugs, wires, & coil...is getting 12 v at the coil and the accelerator pumps are pumping...
What else could have deteriorated and gone away as I was driving her yesterday?
Posted by: neil30076 Aug 25 2009, 02:35 PM
I have 12 volts at the ignition side of the (brand new blue Bosch) coil. The points are opening on the cams. Although I'm still a rookie it looks like it has to be either the points or condensor at this point. What else could it be at this point? If it won't even shudder with starting fluid, and has new plugs, wires, & coil...is getting 12 v at the coil and the accelerator pumps are pumping...
What else could have deteriorated and gone away as I was driving her yesterday?
Take a spare plug, remove one of the plug wires from the engine and hook up the spare plug. Make sure the body of the plug is well grounded to the engine, use copper wire to tie it down to something if needed. crank the car and watch the plug for a spark - let us know what you see, or don't!
OR
if you have a timing light hook it and and crank the engine, does it flash?
Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Aug 25 2009, 02:58 PM
Used a timing light...nothing.
I have 12 volts at the ignition side of the (brand new blue Bosch) coil. The points are opening on the cams. Although I'm still a rookie it looks like it has to be either the points or condensor at this point. What else could it be at this point? If it won't even shudder with starting fluid, and has new plugs, wires, & coil...is getting 12 v at the coil and the accelerator pumps are pumping...
What else could have deteriorated and gone away as I was driving her yesterday?
Take a spare plug, remove one of the plug wires from the engine and hook up the spare plug. Make sure the body of the plug is well grounded to the engine, use copper wire to tie it down to something if needed. crank the car and watch the plug for a spark - let us know what you see, or don't!
OR
if you have a timing light hook it and and crank the engine, does it flash?
Posted by: jmill Aug 25 2009, 03:01 PM
With 12V to the coil and not even a stumble on one cylinder I'm betting you won't see a spark. I'd check the easy stuff first. Check your cap and rotor. See if the contacts are burnt up and cruddy.
Check your coil wire too. Your looking for something that would affect all 4 cylinders.
Posted by: neil30076 Aug 25 2009, 03:11 PM
Used a timing light...nothing.
Take a spare plug, remove one of the plug wires from the engine and hook up the spare plug. Make sure the body of the plug is well grounded to the engine, use copper wire to tie it down to something if needed. crank the car and watch the plug for a spark - let us know what you see, or don't!
OR
if you have a timing light hook it and and crank the engine, does it flash?
Ok, so lets recap - no apparent spark, new coil, points, etc.
I assume you have a test meter that really works
1)Pull the wire from the coil to the distributor/ condenser ( the - or number 1 terminal) put your meter on a voltage range, say 20v, and put it between the #1 terminal and the engine metal, turn on the ingition, does it show 12v? Turn off ignition.
2) take a piece of wire and hook it to #1 termial, turn on ignition, and very briefly flash the loose end of the wire to engine metal, did you see a spark from the wire? Turn off ignition
3) leave the wire attached, pull the center spark plug wire from the distributor and put an old spark plug on it. Lay it on the engine so it touches the metal well - not to paint!
4) Repeat #2, does the plug spark when you flash the wire to the metal?
LMK
Posted by: neil30076 Aug 25 2009, 03:14 PM
With 12V to the coil and not even a stumble on one cylinder I'm betting you won't see a spark. I'd check the easy stuff first. Check your cap and rotor. See if the contacts are burnt up and cruddy.
Check your coil wire too. Your looking for something that would affect all 4 cylinders.
You do have a rotor in there don't you?
and
the center carbon contact is touching it!
Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Aug 25 2009, 05:49 PM
Yes...I have a rotorin there. Is it touching the contact? No idea...I'm too big to get in there with it. Tried that with the refrigerator once to see if the light really goes out.
The points are not new, but they are opening, and showed good dwell (46 ish) before the car crapped out. I guess I'll do points and condensor tomorrow.
With 12V to the coil and not even a stumble on one cylinder I'm betting you won't see a spark. I'd check the easy stuff first. Check your cap and rotor. See if the contacts are burnt up and cruddy.
Check your coil wire too. Your looking for something that would affect all 4 cylinders.
You do have a rotor in there don't you?
and
the center carbon contact is touching it!
Posted by: neil30076 Aug 25 2009, 05:51 PM
Yes...I have a rotorin there. Is it touching the contact? No idea...I'm too big to get in there with it. Tried that with the refrigerator once to see if the light really goes out.
The points are not new, but they are opening, and showed good dwell (46 ish) before the car crapped out. I guess I'll do points and condensor tomorrow.
With 12V to the coil and not even a stumble on one cylinder I'm betting you won't see a spark. I'd check the easy stuff first. Check your cap and rotor. See if the contacts are burnt up and cruddy.
Check your coil wire too. Your looking for something that would affect all 4 cylinders.
You do have a rotor in there don't you?
and
the center carbon contact is touching it!
Did you check this from my previous post?
1)Pull the wire from the coil to the distributor/ condenser ( the - or number 1 terminal) put your meter on a voltage range, say 20v, and put it between the #1 terminal and the engine metal, turn on the ingition, does it show 12v? Turn off ignition.
2) take a piece of wire and hook it to #1 termial, turn on ignition, and very briefly flash the loose end of the wire to engine metal, did you see a spark from the wire? Turn off ignition
3) leave the wire attached, pull the center spark plug wire from the distributor and put an old spark plug on it. Lay it on the engine so it touches the metal well - not to paint!
4) Repeat #2, does the plug spark when you flash the wire to the metal?
Posted by: jmill Aug 25 2009, 06:25 PM
Right now I'd just look at the simple stuff. Pull off the cap and rotor and check their condition. Is the tip of the rotor burnt up and dirty. Check the inside of the cap. Check the contacts. Are they burnt up and dirty. If so buy new ones. You can clean up what you have now for kicks. Take some emory cloth and shine them up. Wipe them clean so you don't have tracking. Check that your points aren't buggered up and that the gap is correct. Check the resistance of your coil wire. It should show no resistance on the ohm scale.
Posted by: neil30076 Aug 25 2009, 06:39 PM
Right now I'd just look at the simple stuff. Pull off the cap and rotor and check their condition. Is the tip of the rotor burnt up and dirty. Check the inside of the cap. Check the contacts. Are they burnt up and dirty. If so buy new ones. You can clean up what you have now for kicks. Take some emory cloth and shine them up. Wipe them clean so you don't have tracking. Check that your points aren't buggered up and that the gap is correct. Check the resistance of your coil wire. It should show no resistance on the ohm scale.
To help Ken understand what you mean when you say - Check the resistance of your coil wire. It should show no resistance on the ohm scale. - I assume you mean the wire from the switch to 15 on the coil.
Assuming its a standard 3 - 4 ohm coil, then I = v/r says it draws around 3.0 amps, so to check the wire can handle the draw you would need to put a high wattage bulb, around w = (I^2)*r or 30watts, to test that the wire can handle the surge load.
The coil primary has a resistance of around 3 - 4 ohm, the secondary, the high side has a resistance way above 6000, to give a step up of 2000:1.
The easy test for a high resistance feed on pin 15 is to remove the wire on 15 and jump it straight back to the battery +ve, then try and start the car. Don't leave it this way for long or the coil may fry if the points are closed or shorted.
Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Aug 25 2009, 06:51 PM
In helping me to uderstand you totally caused my head to spin No idea what "from the switch to 15 on the coil means" What switch? 15 on the coil? What is 15 referring to?
Anyway, I changed the coil out today for a new one to no avail.
Haven't had the time yet to try the stuff you mentioned before (doing parenting), but I'll get to it tomorrow...thanks. Gonna replace condensor, points, rotor and cap. Then I'll replace the car and everything will be fine.
Right now I'd just look at the simple stuff. Pull off the cap and rotor and check their condition. Is the tip of the rotor burnt up and dirty. Check the inside of the cap. Check the contacts. Are they burnt up and dirty. If so buy new ones. You can clean up what you have now for kicks. Take some emory cloth and shine them up. Wipe them clean so you don't have tracking. Check that your points aren't buggered up and that the gap is correct. Check the resistance of your coil wire. It should show no resistance on the ohm scale.
To help Ken understand what you mean when you say - Check the resistance of your coil wire. It should show no resistance on the ohm scale. - I assume you mean the wire from the switch to 15 on the coil.
Assuming its a standard 3 - 4 ohm coil, then I = v/r says it draws around 3.0 amps, so to check the wire can handle the draw you would need to put a high wattage bulb, around w = (I^2)*r or 30watts, to test that the wire can handle the surge load.
The coil primary has a resistance of around 3 - 4 ohm, the secondary, the high side has a resistance way above 6000, to give a step up of 2000:1.
The easy test for a high resistance feed on pin 15 is to remove the wire on 15 and jump it straight back to the battery +ve, then try and start the car. Don't leave it this way for long or the coil may fry if the points are closed or shorted.
Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Aug 25 2009, 06:57 PM
On test #3...is the "center spark plug wire" you refer to actually the wire from the coil to the distributor?
Used a timing light...nothing.
Take a spare plug, remove one of the plug wires from the engine and hook up the spare plug. Make sure the body of the plug is well grounded to the engine, use copper wire to tie it down to something if needed. crank the car and watch the plug for a spark - let us know what you see, or don't!
OR
if you have a timing light hook it and and crank the engine, does it flash?
Ok, so lets recap - no apparent spark, new coil, points, etc.
I assume you have a test meter that really works
1)Pull the wire from the coil to the distributor/ condenser ( the - or number 1 terminal) put your meter on a voltage range, say 20v, and put it between the #1 terminal and the engine metal, turn on the ingition, does it show 12v? Turn off ignition.
2) take a piece of wire and hook it to #1 termial, turn on ignition, and very briefly flash the loose end of the wire to engine metal, did you see a spark from the wire? Turn off ignition
3) leave the wire attached, pull the center spark plug wire from the distributor and put an old spark plug on it. Lay it on the engine so it touches the metal well - not to paint!
4) Repeat #2, does the plug spark when you flash the wire to the metal?
LMK
Posted by: neil30076 Aug 25 2009, 06:59 PM
[quote name='kenshapiro2002' date='Aug 25 2009, 05:51 PM' post='1207192']
In helping me to uderstand you totally caused my head to spin No idea what "from the switch to 15 on the coil means" What switch? 15 on the coil? What is 15 referring to?
Anyway, I changed the coil out today for a new one to no avail.
Haven't had the time yet to try the stuff you mentioned before (doing parenting), but I'll get to it tomorrow...thanks. Gonna replace condensor, points, rotor and cap. Then I'll replace the car and everything will be fine.
>>>>
Ken, 1 and 15 are the numbers on the coil, and you must have them connected correctly do you have then reversed by chance - 1 goes to the distributor/condenser and tach, 15 goes to the battery via the ignition switch!
ken PM and i'll give you my phone number, feel free to call me and i'll work you through this -
Posted by: rjames Aug 25 2009, 07:01 PM
This might be lame suggestion, but make sure that the rotor is installed properly. I just installed new points two days ago and setting the dwell meant I had to remove and install the rotor several times. On 3 occaisions I didn't have the rotor orientated correctly/seated all the way but I thought I did because I was able to put the dist cap on. Of course the car wouldn't start.
Posted by: jmill Aug 25 2009, 07:09 PM
I didn't want to confuse the guy with ohms law. I just wanted him to check that the coil wire (wire from the coil to the distributor) was good ( big one that looks like a plug wire but isn't). Flip your meter to ohms and touch a lead to each side of the wire. If the needle doesn't move you found your problem.
I'm talking simple and easy stuff. I'm not splitting atoms or nothing.
Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Aug 25 2009, 07:10 PM
Now I understanf what the "1" and "15" are referring to. What the hell do the numbers refer to? Why not just use (+) and (-) ? Anyway...yes, my (+) is going to my ignition, and my (-) has two leads attached...the one to the condensor/dizzy and what I assume is a ground coming off the same bundle of wires as the ignition wire. Thanks for the PM / phone number offer...will do.
[quote name='neil30076' date='Aug 25 2009, 08:59 PM' post='1207197']
[quote name='kenshapiro2002' date='Aug 25 2009, 05:51 PM' post='1207192']
In helping me to uderstand you totally caused my head to spin No idea what "from the switch to 15 on the coil means" What switch? 15 on the coil? What is 15 referring to?
Anyway, I changed the coil out today for a new one to no avail.
Haven't had the time yet to try the stuff you mentioned before (doing parenting), but I'll get to it tomorrow...thanks. Gonna replace condensor, points, rotor and cap. Then I'll replace the car and everything will be fine.
>>>>
Ken, 1 and 15 are the numbers on the coil, and you must have them connected correctly do you have then reversed by chance - 1 goes to the distributor/condenser and tach, 15 goes to the battery via the ignition switch!
ken PM and i'll give you my phone number, feel free to call me and i'll work you through this -
[/quote]
Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Aug 25 2009, 07:13 PM
Thought you might be right for a minute there, but the circumstances were that I was driving her for quite a while before she started to crap out on me so the rotor must have been on right, right? When I removed it awhile ago, I made sure I turned it until it seated downward.
This might be lame suggestion, but make sure that the rotor is installed properly. I just installed new points two days ago and setting the dwell meant I had to remove and install the rotor several times. On 3 occaisions I didn't have the rotor orientated correctly/seated all the way but I thought I did because I was able to put the dist cap on. Of course the car wouldn't start.
Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Aug 25 2009, 07:21 PM
As a recently retired teacher, I must commend you on your ability to step down to the level of the learner! I just did as directed and the resistance was approx. 4,200 something-or-others! Might as well do the other tests...see ya'll soon. Thanks again.
I didn't want to confuse the guy with ohms law. I just wanted him to check that the coil wire (wire from the coil to the distributor) was good ( big one that looks like a plug wire but isn't). Flip your meter to ohms and touch a lead to each side of the wire. If the needle doesn't move you found your problem.
I'm talking simple and easy stuff. I'm not splitting atoms or nothing.
Posted by: neil30076 Aug 25 2009, 07:23 PM
Now I understanf what the "1" and "15" are referring to. What the hell do the numbers refer to?
The numbers are industry standard for wiring connections, like the numbers on a relay.
>>
Good point jmill,
The main wire from the center of the coil ( the high voltage) could well be shot - easy test, pull it from the distributor, lay it close to the engine metal and crank the engine, no sparky - bad cable, maybe .
Posted by: jmill Aug 25 2009, 07:25 PM
One good thing is your problem is limited to a small area. It's electrical (unless you broke your dizzy - does the rotor turn with starter?) and it's from the coil output to the dizzy cap. Not too much there. Cap, rotor, points, condenser and one wire.
Posted by: neil30076 Aug 25 2009, 07:30 PM
One good thing is your problem is limited to a small area. It's electrical (unless you broke your dizzy - does the rotor turn with starter?) and it's from the coil output to the dizzy cap. Not too much there. Cap, rotor, points, condenser and one wire.
And if someone local was there to help, who understands the electrical side, this would have been fixed in a few minutes. I'm always amazed that long distance help on 914 boards is easy to get, local, not so. I'm on the 928 BB's as well, and you only have to ask for help and everyone local wants to show up!
Posted by: jmill Aug 25 2009, 07:40 PM
I hear you Neil. On the West coast thats true. In the past 10 years of living in Wi I've only seen one teener. Local guys by me are 100 miles away.
Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Aug 25 2009, 07:55 PM
OK...back from the gay-raj and I'm actually learning and having a blast. Here's what happened:
1. Rotor definitely is spinning.
2. Pulled the wires from the (-), coil side of the coil and it shows 12v.
3. Attached a wire to the same terminal, flashed it to the engine and it sparked.
4. Put an old plug on the dizzy end of the coil-to-dizzy wire and laid it on the engine. The wire used above still sparked when touched to the engine.
Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Aug 25 2009, 07:58 PM
I live right outside of Baltimore, major US city, and I see Ray Lewis more often than I see other 914s. I know of one other that sites within a 20 mile radius. I probably see 2-3 a year (of course, I've been seeing mine every 15 minutes).
I hear you Neil. On the West coast thats true. In the past 10 years of living in Wi I've only seen one teener. Local guys by me are 100 miles away.
Posted by: neil30076 Aug 25 2009, 08:11 PM
I live right outside of Baltimore, major US city, and I see Ray Lewis more often than I see other 914s. I know of one other that sites within a 20 mile radius. I probably see 2-3 a year (of course, I've been seeing mine every 15 minutes).
I hear you Neil. On the West coast thats true. In the past 10 years of living in Wi I've only seen one teener. Local guys by me are 100 miles away.
PROGRESS -
2. Pulled the wires from the (-), coil side of the coil and it shows 12v.
3. Attached a wire to the same terminal, flashed it to the engine and it sparked.
4. Put an old plug on the dizzy end of the coil-to-dizzy wire and laid it on the engine.
The wire used above still sparked when touched to the engine.
>>>
but if you did #4, did the spark plug fire ? i'm stil thinking jmill is correct, bad coil to dizzy wire!!!
Posted by: neil30076 Aug 25 2009, 08:16 PM
I hear you Neil. On the West coast thats true. In the past 10 years of living in Wi I've only seen one teener. Local guys by me are 100 miles away.
Jmill, And you know what - i see at least one almost every day and i don' t know who they are - always on the move - they do tend to be way more runners rather than up on jacks out here !
+Lets get ken rolling - under power that is
Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Aug 25 2009, 08:21 PM
Didn't see the plug fire (didn't even look). Sorry...didn't think your instructions asked for that...I'll check tomorrow. The coil to dizzy wire is brand new. Tried the old one today and it made no difference.
I live right outside of Baltimore, major US city, and I see Ray Lewis more often than I see other 914s. I know of one other that sites within a 20 mile radius. I probably see 2-3 a year (of course, I've been seeing mine every 15 minutes).
I hear you Neil. On the West coast thats true. In the past 10 years of living in Wi I've only seen one teener. Local guys by me are 100 miles away.
PROGRESS -
2. Pulled the wires from the (-), coil side of the coil and it shows 12v.
3. Attached a wire to the same terminal, flashed it to the engine and it sparked.
4. Put an old plug on the dizzy end of the coil-to-dizzy wire and laid it on the engine.
The wire used above still sparked when touched to the engine.
>>>
but if you did #4, did the spark plug fire ? i'm stil thinking jmill is correct, bad coil to dizzy wire!!!
Posted by: neil30076 Aug 25 2009, 08:26 PM
Didn't see the plug fire (didn't even look). Sorry...didn't think your instructions asked for that...I'll check tomorrow. The coil to dizzy wire is brand new. Tried the old one today and it made no difference.
I live right outside of Baltimore, major US city, and I see Ray Lewis more often than I see other 914s. I know of one other that sites within a 20 mile radius. I probably see 2-3 a year (of course, I've been seeing mine every 15 minutes).
I hear you Neil. On the West coast thats true. In the past 10 years of living in Wi I've only seen one teener. Local guys by me are 100 miles away.
PROGRESS -
2. Pulled the wires from the (-), coil side of the coil and it shows 12v.
3. Attached a wire to the same terminal, flashed it to the engine and it sparked.
4. Put an old plug on the dizzy end of the coil-to-dizzy wire and laid it on the engine.
The wire used above still sparked when touched to the engine.
>>>
but if you did #4, did the spark plug fire ? i'm stil thinking jmill is correct, bad coil to dizzy wire!!!
PM sent, call me tomorrow
Posted by: jmill Aug 25 2009, 09:18 PM
One more shot in the dark. When you had it choking and sputtering you could have fouled the plugs. I've never seen all 4 get fouled but stranger things can happen.
Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Aug 25 2009, 09:38 PM
I'll check that out too. I once had both headlights go out on a Beetle 30 years ago. Logic said it had to be something in the circuit, but in fact, both went south at, or near, the same time (maybe I didn't notice when just one was out). Anyway, it was just two bulbs needing replacement.
One more shot in the dark. When you had it choking and sputtering you could have fouled the plugs. I've never seen all 4 get fouled but stranger things can happen.
Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Aug 26 2009, 01:43 PM
The plugs look beautiful (at least #2 did...too lazy to pull the other three when that one looked new). Off to get points, rotor, cap, condensor and a taco. Check back in later.
One more shot in the dark. When you had it choking and sputtering you could have fouled the plugs. I've never seen all 4 get fouled but stranger things can happen.
Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Aug 26 2009, 03:23 PM
Well, the rotor is shot, so that would explain it. My local VW "expert" shop was unable to figure out my dizzy cap / rotor situation, so I ran home, ran the numbers, and found out I have a Bosch "050" dizzy. The guy I've been dealing with there on parts had never heard of an "050" (seems they're not that unusual), so he gave me the wrong cap, rotor and condensor (points seem to be the same as an "09"...01/011), so he's ordering me the right parts now that I gave him the numbers off of Pelican Parts.
cap 9 231 081 413
Rotor 231 081 628
Let you know in a few. Then it's back to the carbs.
Hey, can a rotor do anything less than just fail? Can it deteriorate and have been causing some of the problems I assumed was fueling?
The plugs look beautiful (at least #2 did...too lazy to pull the other three when that one looked new). Off to get points, rotor, cap, condensor and a taco. Check back in later.
One more shot in the dark. When you had it choking and sputtering you could have fouled the plugs. I've never seen all 4 get fouled but stranger things can happen.
Posted by: jmill Aug 26 2009, 05:16 PM
It wouldn't cause popping out of the carbs. Being too lean does that. It would skip firing a cylinder here and there before it went totally bad.
Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Aug 26 2009, 05:25 PM
And the top plate on the carb not being bolted down would cause leanness, right? I'm expecting good things come Wednesday. Yeah...that's how long it will take Pelican to get my parts here. Seems an 050 (vs. an 009) causes the locals here to go , "What?". Then again, I've learned to have no expectations. There was zero resistance on the rotor.
It wouldn't cause popping out of the carbs. Being too lean does that. It would skip firing a cylinder here and there before it went totally bad.
Posted by: neil30076 Aug 26 2009, 05:48 PM
And the top plate on the carb not being bolted down would cause leanness, right? I'm expecting good things come Wednesday. Yeah...that's how long it will take Pelican to get my parts here. Seems an 050 (vs. an 009) causes the locals here to go , "What?". Then again, I've learned to have no expectations. There was zero resistance on the rotor.
It wouldn't cause popping out of the carbs. Being too lean does that. It would skip firing a cylinder here and there before it went totally bad.
Hopefully these parts will solve your problem, just curious - what do you mean by - There was zero resistance on the rotor.
Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Aug 26 2009, 05:55 PM
Set the old multi meter for ohms. Touch leads to center and end of rotor top. Got 5,000 on a new rotor, got 0 on the one that was in the car when it died.
And the top plate on the carb not being bolted down would cause leanness, right? I'm expecting good things come Wednesday. Yeah...that's how long it will take Pelican to get my parts here. Seems an 050 (vs. an 009) causes the locals here to go , "What?". Then again, I've learned to have no expectations. There was zero resistance on the rotor.
It wouldn't cause popping out of the carbs. Being too lean does that. It would skip firing a cylinder here and there before it went totally bad.
Hopefully these parts will solve your problem, just curious - what do you mean by - There was zero resistance on the rotor.
Posted by: neil30076 Aug 26 2009, 06:08 PM
5,000 is good, 0 - as in open circuit, is not :-)
Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Aug 26 2009, 06:13 PM
Should fire up next week. Then Ill see how the car is running with good fire, and get to work on the webers (assume they'll still need work...couldnt have all been the rotor). The I'll point her west on I-70 and meet you for lunch.
5,000 is good, 0 - as in open circuit, is not :-)
Posted by: neil30076 Aug 26 2009, 06:19 PM
Should fire up next week. Then Ill see how the car is running with good fire, and get to work on the webers (assume they'll still need work...couldnt have all been the rotor). The I'll point her west on I-70 and meet you for lunch.
5,000 is good, 0 - as in open circuit, is not :-)
LOL ! You make it this far and it will be dinner at least!
FYI, the attached may help you if you need to adjust the mechanical linkage on the carbs, I do not recall if you have the hex cross bar linkage or not.
Syncronizing_IDF_Webers.pdf ( 331.49k )
Number of downloads: 56Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Aug 26 2009, 06:29 PM
Somebody on here said this was a good linkage. It has zero slop or play in at.
Should fire up next week. Then Ill see how the car is running with good fire, and get to work on the webers (assume they'll still need work...couldnt have all been the rotor). The I'll point her west on I-70 and meet you for lunch.
5,000 is good, 0 - as in open circuit, is not :-)
LOL ! You make it this far and it will be dinner at least!
FYI, the attached may help you if you need to adjust the mechanical linkage on the carbs, I do not recall if you have the hex cross bar linkage or not.
Syncronizing_IDF_Webers.pdf ( 331.49k )
Number of downloads: 56Posted by: neil30076 Aug 26 2009, 06:42 PM
Somebody on here said this was a good linkage. It has zero slop or play in at.
good linkage, my instructions don't really apply, ignore :-)
Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Aug 26 2009, 06:53 PM
Do you know what brand or type it is?
Somebody on here said this was a good linkage. It has zero slop or play in at.
good linkage, my instructions don't really apply, ignore :-)
Posted by: jmill Aug 28 2009, 04:14 PM
Talk to me Goose. Is it running?
Posted by: neil30076 Aug 28 2009, 04:17 PM
Talk to me Goose. Is it running?
yes, enquirying minds want to know
Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Aug 28 2009, 04:39 PM
Had to order the rotor (and condenser, cap and points) from Pelican. Somehow 2-3 day Priority mail takes from Thursday to the predicted arrival date of this Wednesday. As soon as it arrives, I swear, I'll slap her back together and let ya'll know. I had planned on that anyway. You have no idea how much I appreciate your, and Neil's,constant interest, vigilance and instruction.
Talk to me Goose. Is it running?
Posted by: neil30076 Aug 28 2009, 04:55 PM
Had to order the rotor (and condenser, cap and points) from Pelican. Somehow 2-3 day Priority mail takes from Thursday to the predicted arrival date of this Wednesday. As soon as it arrives, I swear, I'll slap her back together and let ya'll know. I had planned on that anyway. You have no idea how much I appreciate your, and Neil's,constant interest, vigilance and instruction.
Talk to me Goose. Is it running?
I have to switch hats and work on my 928, then my Land Rover, so my 914 attention will go down as its the only car i drive that is ( touch wood) running perfectly right now.
My wifes car ( Range Rover) doesn't count, she won't let me near it as its still covered by factory warranty!
Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Aug 31 2009, 06:52 PM
The Pelican landed today (8/31). I'll get cracking tomorrow morning and let ya'll know something tomorrow night!
Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Sep 1 2009, 09:26 AM
She lives !!! Set the points at .016 and her dwell was at 42º so I guess I need to go out and close the gap a tad to get her up to 47-48º ?
Anyway, she is mostly popping through the exhaust, even at idle.
If I rev her hard repeatedly, she stumbles almost immediately (accelerator pumps?)
Anyway, out to search for 48º dwell and then maybe a drive to see how she is under load.
Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Sep 1 2009, 10:57 AM
UNBELIEVABLE !!! Not only do I have her running, but almost perfectly. All that speculation about the fuel, the sock, the fuel pump, old gas, rebuilding the carbs...pretty much for nothing. It was all a failing rotor? I got the gap much better, (dwell at 49º), and just drove the piss out of her. She ran almost perfectly...only some decel pop (local wrench I showed it to on the ride said clean my idle jets over and over for awhile; also told me to replace my fuel lines). She pulled smoothly all the way up to redline, had great power...what a freakin joy!!!
Ever hear of a rotor on an 050 causing those kinds of problems? I'd have thunk (like whatta I know) that a rotor was either pass or fail, but this one was obviously crapping out bit by bit.
Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Sep 1 2009, 11:15 AM
Posted by: jmill Sep 1 2009, 12:25 PM
Glad you got it back on the road and running great. With 20/20 hindsight a bad rotor and a cap that was tracking would cause some of your issues. Don't forget about your loose carb top and jetting. That also had some bearing on your problems.
For the decel pop check for exhaust leaks. You suck in fresh air through the leak and that mixes with unburned fuel, ingites, and causes your pop.
Fix those spacers and tighten up your exhaust and drive the heck out of it.
Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Sep 1 2009, 01:39 PM
Thanks. You've been great...great "garage side" manner!
Glad you got it back on the road and running great. With 20/20 hindsight a bad rotor and a cap that was tracking would cause some of your issues. Don't forget about your loose carb top and jetting. That also had some bearing on your problems.
For the decel pop check for exhaust leaks. You suck in fresh air through the leak and that mixes with unburned fuel, ingites, and causes your pop.
Fix those spacers and tighten up your exhaust and drive the heck out of it.
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