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Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Sep 23 2009, 12:21 PM

Where is the ground numbered #83 (Ground connection "B") on a 1970 914? It's not the one in the rear trunk, and not the one by each headlight. It's the one that grounds all the dash switches, door switches, fan and heater switch, etc.

Posted by: SirAndy Sep 23 2009, 12:24 PM

Behind the dash, drivers side.

Unscrew the fuse panel and let it hang down and you should be able to see it.
You might have to practice your rubber-neck routine beforehand ...

Andy

Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Sep 23 2009, 12:26 PM

Great...out to the garage again...slide in backwards...fight the mosquitoes...and clean. If this doesn't do it...wanna buy a car?

Posted by: Cupomeat Sep 23 2009, 12:32 PM

Don't give up Ken!!!

Electical problems are only second to oil pressure problems when it comes to frustration.

Not only can you figure this out, but once you do, you will feel like you have mastered your car.

That is a good feeling.

Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Sep 23 2009, 12:44 PM

I was just kidding...I am actually having fun. That connection under the fuse box where "Cupofmeat" sent me is where a bunch of red (hot) wires meet up. I'm looking for the connection point for all of the ground wires (brown) convene for the dash electrics.

Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Sep 23 2009, 12:46 PM

Ooops...meant Sir Andy.

Posted by: r_towle Sep 23 2009, 12:49 PM

its there on the inner fender above the fuse box...its not easy to see.
Its up there pretty high.

Rich

Posted by: SirAndy Sep 23 2009, 12:55 PM

Posted by: Rod Sep 23 2009, 12:56 PM

Remove speaker housing and heater pipe for easier access iirc.

Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Sep 23 2009, 12:58 PM

OK...thanks guys...here I go again.

Posted by: markb Sep 23 2009, 12:58 PM

There's also one by the relay board in the engine compartment you'll want to clean.

Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Sep 23 2009, 01:00 PM

Did that one and the one for that battery yesterday. Dremeled all the paint off at the base...coated with dielectric grease, even polished up the washers and nuts (not mine, but close...not much room to work back there).

Posted by: SirAndy Sep 23 2009, 01:03 PM

Don't forget the ground strap on your transmission.

While you're in there.
Andy

Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Sep 23 2009, 01:06 PM

"While you're in there"? I'm under the dash...how long do you think my arms are?

Posted by: Cupomeat Sep 23 2009, 01:24 PM

Hey, just remember that there is no "F" in Cup O'Meat!

If you want to know what that is all about check out some of our recent work (as the website is in flux) at

http://vimeo.com/channels/cupomeat

Knowing how long your arms are, you could probably surf the web while fixing the ground problem on both the gearbox AND the fuse panel. I guess, maybe you need 3 eyes... LOL

Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Sep 23 2009, 02:10 PM

Watched a bit...still not sure exactly what "Cup O' Meat" is (sorry). Hobby? Business? Art? All three?

Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Sep 23 2009, 02:26 PM

OK...ground connection #83 was not that hard to get to...didn't need to remove the speaker cover or heater hose. It's right on the back of the spot where the reds all came together. It was just hiding from my eyes. It was very clean, but I "worked it" even more. Didn't address my problem. I'll do the tranny ground strap tomorrow, but I;m betting its not the issue, based on the following:

Problem didn't exist when I bought the car two months ago, and didn't surface until I started doing work on the speedo and the brake lights. Evidence suggests It has something to do with either the work I did on the speedo ( wihch included taking off the steering wheel), or the brake lights (they wee not working until I adjusted the brake light switch).

Speedo is now out again, and problem still exists. Steering wheel is off and problem still exists.

So, when I turn on the ignition, all is quiet. Turning on signals, radio, wipers, headlights, or hitting the brakes, causes the flasher relay thing (rectangular upright thing behind the dash that mounts in the far left recesses of the dash) to chatter at 10x it's normal speed. If I then turn off whatever device caused it to start this chatter, the chatter continues until I turn off the ignition. There must be some evidence in the fact that any electrical load from any switch causes only that flasher to squawk.

Posted by: markb Sep 23 2009, 02:51 PM

You mention you adjusted the brake light switch. What happens when you unplug it?

Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Sep 23 2009, 02:54 PM

My gremlin still exists with the switch unplugged.

Posted by: SirAndy Sep 23 2009, 03:01 PM

Take out all gauges, remove the face-plate and inspect the top of the switches.

Either something fell on to one and is shorting out a switch or one or more wires got lose when you pulled the speedo the first time.

Andy

Posted by: Cupomeat Sep 23 2009, 03:02 PM

Hobby and art, but not much business...

The movies don't explain the creation of Cup o'meat, sorry, just what we are.

the name came from a 1993 idea about a bare bones fast food restaurant that never came to fruition. It them morphed into the production company it is now.

Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Sep 23 2009, 03:06 PM

"Remove the face plate"...you mean the surround that holds the three gauges?

Posted by: SirAndy Sep 23 2009, 04:05 PM

Do you see any other face-plates with gauges in it?

Yes, the big black thing with three large holes. Once removed, you'll have a little bit better access to the switches.

One of them flexible mirrors comes in handy when working on this stuff ...
Andy

Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Sep 23 2009, 05:07 PM

"Take out all the gauges, remove the face plate", could also mean the individual face plates on each gauge. That would mean getting out the dynamite. Doing that to the speedo, sucked! Off to the garage!

Posted by: SirAndy Sep 23 2009, 05:18 PM

Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Sep 23 2009, 06:04 PM

I'm not nuts...just stupid (at least about this stuff...for now).

Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Sep 23 2009, 06:07 PM

Alright...new evidence. I have all the gauges dangling and nothing is loose or missing that I can see or feel, but check this out... When I turn on the ignition, and make the flasher click like crazy by turning on the lights, radio, wipers...anything, I can make it stop by turning on the emergency flasher! Once the emergency flashers are on, everything else works fine and the buzzing stops.

I'm guessing this is because the flasher relay is getting more juice and Ill just have to ride around all the time with my 4 ways on, or is this some evidence of where the problem lies?

Posted by: ghuff Sep 23 2009, 06:19 PM

Don't mind Sir Andy.

He has a little chip on his shoulder, and likes to make you feel stupid I think to make himself feel a little better about himself.

Meanwhile the knowledge he uses to do this is fairly trivial, but whatever floats his boat

Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Sep 23 2009, 06:26 PM

I love Sir Andy...been a great help. I didn;t really think he was trying to belittle me at all, he just didn't realize how uneducated I am about this shit. No offense at all.

Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Sep 23 2009, 06:26 PM

Never mind...It only worked for a little while.

Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Sep 23 2009, 06:29 PM

Alright...check this out...everything is hanging all over the place. The speedometer light bulbs, still in their sockets , are hanging down right in front of the ignition. With ignition off, I pull on the headlights, and the bulbs light up if they are touching the metal around the ignition. Is that kosher?

Posted by: ghuff Sep 23 2009, 06:30 PM

Yes, I like it when people act insulted over the possibility of ambiguous text myself. It is good to know that I always have him there for a reference of those who are better than I.

He has been a big help to me as well! I would not be where I am without him in my project!


Start looking for broken wires and things that could short. The electronics are not only weird in these cars but apparently that flasher relay interconnects to a bunch of random crap.


Maybe you can run without it?

Crack it open and see if it's all corroded or shorted inside?

Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Sep 23 2009, 06:40 PM

I assume it just pulls upwards? What a weird spot to put something in that might have to be replaced one day. Even if it were corroded (this car is very clean and was stored for years in a heated, garage) I wouldn't think other devices and switches would set it off, would they?

Posted by: SirAndy Sep 23 2009, 06:48 PM

If i remember correctly, that was *your* chip sitting on my shoulder ...

Posted by: SirAndy Sep 23 2009, 06:50 PM

And you call my knowledge 'trivial' ...

Posted by: ghuff Sep 23 2009, 07:03 PM

Yeah, it is. Very trivial. Sorry. Just like your existence, trivial with an attempt to make yourself feel superior scoffing at others for almost no reason.


Anyone with wiring diagrams can read them and find it out. In fact I would rather do that than deal with reading some whiney text from you in the internet compensating for something else lacking in your life.

I can only imagine the raging mental internet elitist boner you probably have while sitting there attempting to write snarky replies and roll eyes a plenty.

Must be pretty pathetic living in your world.


Sorry to burst your bubble, but like you said to me, you are nothing special. Plenty of people know how to do this. If you want respect you are going about it the wrong way.


It's nice you want to help, but being a snobbish dick to people while doing so is pretty lame.


It's nice to socialize and share/help, but beating down others to make yourself feel better is pathetic.







PS Ken I have a copy of the 914 & 914/6 group 9 wiring diagrams. It appears to be a complete pdf scan of all the wiring diagrams throughout production.


PM me and I can get them to you offline so you can trace this all.

Or if you are local you can bring it by my place afte this weekend and we can look at it in person.

I promise I wont roll my eyes, turn my nose in the air or act better than you because I might be able to read a wiring diagram.

Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Sep 23 2009, 07:12 PM

More "evidence". Pulling fuse #8 stops the chattering. Now, depending on whether I believe the Haynes manual or the owners manual...

Haynes says it controls (brake, blinker, backup lights, wiper, & cigarette lighter)

Owner's Manual says it controls (wipers, ventilator, horn & cigarette lighter)

Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Sep 23 2009, 07:17 PM

Guys...you two obviously have some history, but I don't feel attacked, belittles or anything even close to that. I'm appreciating the help both of you are providing...really.

Anyway, just went out and turned the lights on (no ignition) and the lights that were dangling against the ignition started smoking, popping and gt VERY hot. No fuses burned out and doesn't look like anything got fried.

Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Sep 23 2009, 07:22 PM

I have all of the schematics for all of the years in the Haynes manual (not doing me much good right now). Helped me to trace the handbrake switch, the brake swt=itch and everything else that's not solving this mystery.

Posted by: SirAndy Sep 23 2009, 07:32 PM

Posted by: ghuff Sep 23 2009, 07:42 PM

Every haynes manual I have had for every car I have owned has been inaccurate and lacking in wiring diagrams.

This is the factory stuff.

Let me get the PDF to an SMTP friendly size and it will be headed to you!

Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Sep 23 2009, 07:45 PM

Thanks.

Posted by: Spoke Sep 23 2009, 09:18 PM

It makes sense that the 4-ways stops the noise. See below, with 4-ways on, power comes from fuse 11. Fuse 11 powers the 4-way lights, clock and the seat belt warning system.

Fuse 9 (in my Haynes manual looking at 1974 MY) which powers the system when 4-ways are off, also powers the brake lights, backup lights, oil temp gauge, voltmeter, generator light, low fuel warning light, and fuel gauge sender unit. oil pressure indicator light, tachometer, fuel gauge.

Question: Does the noise stop when either turn signal is active?

Question: What is the voltage on fuse 9 when this happens? Make sure you measure the lug opposite where the power comes in.

Question: does the noise happen when the backup lights are on?


Attached image(s)

Posted by: Cupomeat Sep 23 2009, 09:36 PM

WOW, I leave this thread for a commute, dinner, kids time and walk of the dog and not only did we get to see a battle, we have a REAL possible answer!

If only I watched it in real time...

Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Sep 24 2009, 05:55 AM

Maybe a savior! I need to go out and perform tests for questions #2 and #3, but I can tell you right now that yes...usuing the turn signals is "usually " the only way to get the noise to stop. I say "usually" because sometimes it does not, unless I go back and forth between left,right,left,right. That being said, the turn signals do seem to be the best way to get the chattering to stop, though not always a "quick" stop.

Posted by: Spoke Sep 24 2009, 06:10 AM

Some other tests to try:

On the flasher relay, remove ground pin 31. Measure resistance (ohms) from the brown wire to a nice clean chassis point. This should be 0 ohms or close to it.

On the flasher relay, remove wire from pin 49a. With power off, 4-ways off, turn signals off, parking brake off, measure resistance (ohms) from the wire to ground. This should be infinite ohms (very high resistance; like when the 2 voltmeter probes are not touching anything).

On the flasher relay, remove wire from pin 49. With voltmeter on VOLTS, measure voltage from the wire to chassis ground with lights on, 4-ways on, other electric loads. This voltage should be steady and not jumping around.

A side note:
When doing electrical testing and you remove wires, lamps, etc., do not let the fixture touch metal. The last thing you want is an unintended short circuit and blown fuse or melted wire. If you must remove and keep things off, wrap them with tape-any kind of tape.

Also, if you remove more than 1 wire, mark the wires and where they go. It is so easy to mis-connect wires when putting things together.

Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Sep 24 2009, 06:41 AM

OK...just went out to "play". The turn signals will actually cause the chatter after a few seconds. At first they click normally, and then after 2-3 second the chatter begins. A few weeks ago when the problem first surfaced, it was applying the brakes that started the chatter, and a quick flick of the turn signal would stop it. With some experimenting today, use of the four way flasher will stop the chatter, but it often takes 2-3 pulls. Here's an example...

turn on ignition (not to starter), use turn signal. Sounds normal for a few seconds, then the chatter begins. Pull out 4 way flasher control and chatter gets worse...almost a constant buzz instead of rapid clicking. Use the 4 way switch a few more times, and all quiets down.

Question #3. Putting the beast into reverse does not cause the problem. Not sure if my reverse light even works. If that matters I'll close the garage door and see if the light is illuminating.

Question #2. When the chatter is happening, no matter which side of fuse#9 I place my analog, ancient, volt meter, the needle heads south! Goes below zero.

Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Sep 24 2009, 07:01 AM

OK...no question #2 I had the wires reversed! My meter might not be spot on accurate, but I get the same reading on all three (+) poles as well as the (-) pole...a little less than 12 v.

Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Sep 24 2009, 07:17 AM

OK...here's where I need to get stupid (tongue-in-cheek) again...the flasher relay, I'm assuming, is the rectangular box that's chattering away, and is sitting inside my dash just outboard of the headlight switch? I must be wrong here because this box is just a plug in with no obvious wires attached.

Posted by: Spoke Sep 24 2009, 09:23 AM

When you turn things on and off, does the voltage change much? Just checking in case there is resistance at the fuse. Are the fuse contacts and fuse box contacts clean? Emery cloth or fine sandpaper will clean them up nicely.

When you say "all three (+) poles", what are you referring to? On fuse #9?

Posted by: Spoke Sep 24 2009, 09:26 AM

I usually get stupid on the weekends...

I'm not quite sure what the flasher relay looks like. Are you saying chattering box has a connector with a plug? How many wires are on the plug and do the wire colors match the wire colors in the schematic?

Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Sep 24 2009, 09:45 AM

Here's what I'm referring to. This is what my fuse #9 looks like:

Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Sep 24 2009, 09:49 AM

The flasher relay (the one that now chatters me crazy, and also makes the normal turn signal and 4 way flasher clicks) is a rectangular metal box that plugs in the horizontal part of the dash that the knee pad attaches to. I need to go get a mirror, but there must be a plate attached to the dash there, and the relay simply pushes down into the plate for contact. Very hard to get to and almost impossible to see in there. Heading out to Harbor Freight right now for a mirror to help me see in there better.

Posted by: Spoke Sep 24 2009, 10:42 AM

Nice pic of the fuse. The side with one wire is the hot side. The side with the 2 lugs is the protected (by fuse 9) side. This is the side to measure. Here we'd be looking for any jumping of the voltage caused by other loads.

I think the flasher relay is a little metal box. The wires should be in either a connector or somehow attached to the plate. I've never taken one apart so I have no experience with dissassembly.

If there is a connector, we can still work with that. What we wand to do is this:

1) Check the voltage into the circuit on pin 49. This should be stable for all loading (lights, radio, wipers, etc)

2) Check the ground wire resistance on Pin 31. This should be very low resistance. Like 0 to 1 ohms.

3) Find some other electrical path on pin 49a that causes the load that causes the chatter.

Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Sep 24 2009, 11:23 AM

Yeah...the chatter box is a rectangular prism, silver in color, and is mounter on one of those round rubber bases just like the relays on the back of the fuse panel. I guess I need to not only pull the relay but also remove the base to get to the wires. Are tjose nipples easy to get back in? Any tricks in removing or reinstalling?

Posted by: r_towle Sep 24 2009, 11:34 AM

Dude, your a guest, behave like one.

Rich

Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Sep 24 2009, 11:40 AM

I concur...guests and "hosts" should treat people decently.
Ken

Posted by: SirAndy Sep 24 2009, 11:58 AM

I didn't think i stepped on your toes. Did i?

If so, i apologize!
Andy

Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Sep 24 2009, 12:00 PM

Not at all. Already thought I made that clear. I have nothing but appreciation and good feelings about you !

Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Sep 24 2009, 12:04 PM

Just checked out the voltage on the "cold" side of fuse #9. My voltage meter is an older analog one, so we're not talking exact readings here, but I'm getting 12 volts with no load on it and even as I add on other loads. When I turn on the headlights I get a very small drop, that then recovers...almost imperceptible. I'm guessing this is normal ?

Out to pull the flasher relay.

Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Sep 24 2009, 12:45 PM

As to check point 3 below...pin49A, the BLK/GRN/WH wire, only goes to the turn signal switch and the four way flasher switch. Others were saying that any item on the same ground circuit could be activating this flasher relay if they were not properly grounded...juice could be coming in through the ground?

P.S. Gave up for awhile on getting this damn relay out of it's socket...very stubborn little bugger.

Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Sep 24 2009, 01:13 PM

Got it out...off to test the hot and ground. I'm starting to understand this crap.

Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Sep 24 2009, 01:32 PM

OK...pin 31 (ground) is excellent. Pin 49 is getting 12 volts and it's not fluctuating with the different loads. This seems wrong though...as soon as I turn on the ignition, the flasher relay is getting 12 volts, but it's not making any sound. I guess it's quiet until it gets a signal from the flashers through one of the other pins?

Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Sep 24 2009, 05:20 PM

Yeah...after looking at the schematic, I think it's normal for the red lead to be "hot" as soon as the ignition is turned on. Seems the flasher relay is good as is its ground and power source. My rookie guess is till that something else is wrong and is powering up the relay through the ground wire.

Significant evidence seems to me to be:

When I took delivery of the car, the problem did not exist. The brake light switch on the brake pedal was so far out of adjustment that no brake lights went on. I fixed that. Unplugging it does not eleviate my current problem. The handbrake switch was screwed up and did not work either. I freed that up now and it works. There was no bulb in the multi gauge for the handbrake light / brake failure. A PO had[i] to have removed it because of some electrical glitch that had it on all the time.

When I took delivery of the car, the turn signal indicators were screwy. One of them would flash correctly (can't remember which one), and the other would start to flash on its correct side, and then both arrows would start to flash at the same time.

Posted by: SirAndy Sep 24 2009, 05:28 PM

My memory on that is a bit hazy, but i have seen a lot of 914s do that. It's either a bad switch or a ground problem.

I fixed it on my car by adding an additional ground to those bulbs, but that's a bandaid.
I think they are supposed to be grounded at one of the switches.


But like i said, it's been years since i worked on this the last time. Maybe it's time to whip out the good 'ole search function because i also vaguely remember a solution posted here a while ago.

Andy

Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Sep 24 2009, 06:04 PM

Never had any luck with the search function on this site...not sure why.

Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Sep 24 2009, 06:31 PM

Did some searching and found that others have hd simiar problems with many different solutions. Found this:

>I noticed the other night my turn signal relay just started clicking when I was out driving around. My turn signals still work but the relay continues to click.

Do any brake master cylinder work on the car lately?
Is your brake fluid level getting low?
The relay circuit includes the brake warning system.

Two weeks ago I replaced the master cylinder in my 914. First time I fired it up with the new MC, the turn signal relay started clicking none stop[the relay drives every light that flashes] . The brake warning light would flash occasionally, but the relay kept clicking constantly.

Drove me crazy for two weeks. Bled the brakes a few times, but that did not satisfy the brake warning system. The brakes felt & performed fine.

Problem solved:
The new master cylinder came with a single wire sensor, the old MC had a 2-wire sensor(Gnd & signal). So I installed the old sensor on the new MC when I first installed it. It turns out the new sensor's plunger length is shorter than the old sensor's, by about 1/8". So I shortened the old sensor's plunger to match the length of the new sensor's, and now no more flashing brake warning light, and no more signal relay clicking.

Moral of this tale?
Since you probably don't have a mis-matched master cylinder to brake warning sensor,
your brake fluid warning system may be about to trigger.

Posted by: Spoke Sep 24 2009, 11:09 PM

When both flashed together, were they 1/2 brightness? This seems to be a common failure of the flasher relay. Look at the schematic and imagine what happens if the center connection of the indicator lights doesn't connect to pin 49 as the schematic shows. If the relay on pin K doesn't close when the turn signals are on, both lamps will light and will split the voltage 6v across each lamp.

Like Andy mentioned, if the center connection of the indicator lamps is disconnected from pin K and connected to ground, then each indicator will flash as desired. The bulbs will have to be reversed in their sockets since the right indicator is connected to the left bulbs and the left indicator to the right bulbs.



You can check this in 2 ways. Disconnect the flasher relay and measure resistance (ohms) from the brown wire to chassis. This measurement should show less than 1 ohm.

Second way is to measure voltage on the brown wire to chassis when power is applied to loads like brake lights, radio, wipers, etc. This measurement should show zero voltage if the wire is ok.

Do this test: Remove the flasher relay and measure resistance (ohms) to chassis on the wire connected to pin 49a. With 4-way flashers and turn signals off, you should measure infinite ohms (no deflection on an analog needle) or the same reading on a digital multimeter when measuring ohms and the probes are not touching anything.

If you measure resistance, something is pulling down on the relay and could be causing it to chatter.

Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Sep 25 2009, 05:37 AM

On this part should I be powered up and trying items other than the 4 ways and flashers?


[/u][/i]Do this test: Remove the flasher relay and measure resistance (ohms) to chassis on the wire connected to pin 49a. With 4-way flashers and turn signals off, you should measure infinite ohms (no deflection on an analog needle) or the same reading on a digital multimeter when measuring ohms and the probes are not touching anything.

If you measure resistance, something is pulling down on the relay and could be causing it to chatter.
[/quote]

Posted by: Spoke Sep 25 2009, 05:48 AM

No power on this test. You are looking for something that is an electrical load on the flasher. The electrical load may present itself as a resistance to ground.

Something is loading the flasher such that it tries to turn on all the time. There may be a path of resistance from pin 49a to ground that we're looking for.

In general, the flasher is a simple circuit. It only has 3 real pins (discounting pin K):
o Power pin 49
o Ground pin 31
o Output pin 49a

If power pin 49 is ok (no wild voltage swings during operation) and ground pin 31 is ok (no noticeable voltage on the ground pin during operation), then that leaves just output pin 49a.

Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Sep 25 2009, 06:50 AM

You can check this in 2 ways. Disconnect the flasher relay and measure resistance (ohms) from the brown wire to chassis. This measurement should show less than 1 ohm. PERFECT

Second way is to measure voltage on the brown wire to chassis when power is applied to loads like brake lights, radio, wipers, etc. This measurement should show zero voltage if the wire is ok. PERFECT

Do this test: Remove the flasher relay and measure resistance (ohms) to chassis on the wire connected to pin 49a. With 4-way flashers and turn signals off, you should measure infinite ohms (no deflection on an analog needle) or the same reading on a digital multimeter when measuring ohms and the probes are not touching anything. [b]PERFECT

If you measure resistance, something is pulling down on the relay and could be causing it to chatter.
[/quote]

Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Sep 25 2009, 06:53 AM

So, if the flasher relay passes all of these tests. Where do I go from here? Since even just using that circuit the way it's supposed to be used , like using the 4 way flashers, causes the relay to go crazy, doesn't that indicate that the relay itself is bad? Can there be another explanation? If there's no load going into that relay at all and the using the flashers or 4 way flashers causes it to go crazy, what else could be the explanation other than a bad relay?

Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Sep 25 2009, 07:08 AM

OK...decided to run every possible test on the relay itself for resistance. Here's what I found:

49 - K = ∞
49A - K = ∞
31 - K = ∞

49 - 49A = 300
49A - 31 = 1900
49 - 31 = 1800

Posted by: FourBlades Sep 25 2009, 08:05 AM

I'd say buy a new relay or try one known to be good from a friend's car. That
will either solve the problem or eliminate the relay as a possibility. You could
also try tracing all the wires involved and look for shorts, cracks in the insulation,
bad connections, etc.

You could also try taking out all the fuses except #9 and see if the problem still
exists. If it still exists, the problem is in this circuit. If the problem goes away,
try adding fuses back one by one. When it comes back, then there must be
some interconnection in the circuits that is causing the problem. Having hard
information like this is very helpful in finding the problem.

I am no expert on 914 wiring, and this advice may not help, but I know from
engineering that you need to isolate the problem, and definitively rule things out
one by one. Often times the hardest bugs to track down were ones that people
thought "for sure" they had ruled out. Usually it turned out that they "assumed"
that something was good instead of "testing" it for sure. This caused them to
look at every other possibility except the one they "assumed" was ok.

I need to debug my blue car here soon and I am sure I will have similar
issues.

Good luck.

John

Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Sep 25 2009, 08:08 AM

Thanks.

Posted by: Spoke Sep 25 2009, 08:11 AM

The resistances of the relay look good. I don't think the relay is at fault.

Sorry for asking for all the measurements. Troubleshooting from afar is pretty difficult. We're trying to isolate the issue. There is (usually) one thing wrong but it's hard to find. Experiments and measurements will help isolate the issue.

In previous tests, what was the resistance of the ground wire (brown) to chassis that you measured before?

Have you tried this test: remove the 49a wire from the flasher relay and turn the power on. This should remove all loads from the flasher and it should not chatter. This will also confirm your 12V power and ground connection. No lights will flash, but then again we're just trying to isolate the issue.

I have another test in mind but it's really radical. I'll dump this one on you later if the issue still exists.

Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Sep 25 2009, 08:59 AM

Ground wire (31) has always shown zero.

Just eliminated 49A and the problem still exists. No lights flashed but the other power sources still got the relay to chattering.

Posted by: silverteener Sep 25 2009, 09:00 AM

I can't help you with your problem but I see Spoke is here and he helped me fix my problem I was working on for Months. he was very patient and really knows how to trace! Good luck and don't give up.

Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Sep 25 2009, 09:02 AM

I read through your ordeal last night and it gave me the boost I needed not to go out and beat up an old lady...saw that you were pretty lost (like I am), but stuck it out and conquered it through these good friends, like Spoke and the others.

Posted by: Spoke Sep 25 2009, 09:11 AM

OK. This is good news. This eliminates any of the loads (master cylinder switch, ebrake switch, etc.) from causing the problem. We're narrowing down the possible issues. With 49a removed, you are just connected to power (49), ground (31), and the indicator lamps (K).

Try to remove K at the same time 49a is removed. This leaves just power (49) and ground (31) connected. If the chatter continues with K and 49a removed, then just power and ground are connected.

Posted by: Spoke Sep 25 2009, 09:15 AM

Good stuff here.

I'm wondering about the relay too at this point.

silverteener has an extra flasher relay

Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Sep 25 2009, 09:18 AM

Took out all the fuses except #9. Everythiing was fine, so I started adding them back. The final result was that if I have all the fuses in except #8 and #11, all is quiet. When I add #11 or #8 all hell breaks loose again.

Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Sep 25 2009, 09:33 AM

Also, if I leave all fuses out except #8, problem exists...leave all out except #11, problem exists.

Posted by: Spoke Sep 25 2009, 09:58 AM

OK, just to clarify, you still have pins 49a and K disconnected? Keep them disconnected if you have found the issue still happens with them disconnected.

More clarification: When you added #11 with #8 removed, you also turned on the 4-way flasher?

With #11 in with #8 removed, is there a difference with 4-ways on and off?

Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Sep 25 2009, 09:59 AM

Just ordered a flasher relay with 1 day delivery...just so I can keep you guys up to date without too much lag time. Is it just me or does AA's inventory seldom match it's catalog (online one at that) as to brand, price, etc.? Yesterday I got a really quick, rude blowoff from their tech guy. I've only been dealing with AA and PP for about two months now, but I always seem to be going back to PP...so much so that I may just go to them consistently from now on.

Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Sep 25 2009, 10:04 AM

When I did the "Fuse Experiment" I put the relay back in fully. Also, I never had "K" disconnected...you said remove 49A...nothing about removing "K".

With just #8 removed the problem exists as soon as I pull the 4 way switch on...even with no ignition.

Should I now do the fuse experimetn with both 49A and K removed?

Posted by: Spoke Sep 25 2009, 10:07 AM

When you pull the 4-way switch with no ignition, are other loads on like lights? The 4-way when pulled powers the flasher w/o ignition on. That is the top switch in the 4-way flasher in the schematic. It gets power from #11 regardless of the ignition switch.

Yes, please try with both 49a and K removed. Just trying to eliminate variables. It will be interesting to see if your new relay reacts differently.

Posted by: FourBlades Sep 25 2009, 11:35 AM

So fuse #8 controls the wiper, fan blower, lighter, and something else that I
can't read on the pelican diagram.

I would trace the wires for these and look for shorts with fuse #11 wires.
What happens when you turn the wipers or blower fan on, I think you mentioned
that somewhere before?

Maybe your cig lighter fried some wiring nearby and melted with it.

John

Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Sep 25 2009, 12:16 PM

If I pull the 4 way flasher by itself or with other loads (headlights, radio) on, that makes no difference. Either way the flasher goes nuts.

I'll go pull #49A and K and get back.

Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Sep 25 2009, 12:18 PM

What each fuse controls is different wherever I look! The wipers effect the problem as do all devices on the dash. I have no cigarette lighter.

Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Sep 25 2009, 12:55 PM

OK...removed 49A and K. No difference. Well, the actual light in the 4 way switch didn't illuminate, but the squawk was the same.

Thinking out loud...this all surfaced after I got the brake lights working again by adjusting the screw on the switch. It was wayyyyyyyy off. I've since tried unhooking the switch to no avail. Would returning the screw adjustment to it's way off position and plugging it back in change anything? Returning it to "as it was" before I adjusted it? Isn't unhooking it good enough? What, if anything, would returning it to its "pre-problem" condition do?

Posted by: Spoke Sep 25 2009, 02:35 PM

Thanks. 49a also powers the light in the flasher so it would be expected that the lamp doesn't light.

I'm not sure that the brake light adjustment had anything to do with the flasher relay chattering. Since 49a and K are not connected, the only connections are power (49) and ground (31).

You ordered a new relay but if you wanted to try one other thing, you could do try temporarily replacing ground and power to the relay, one at a time.

Get a length of wire say 3 feet long and put a spade connector on it. Tie one end to a chassis point (screw or nut somewhere) and the other to pin 31. This will bypass the ground wire and essentially take the original wire out of the circuit. See if the chatter continues.

If the chatter continues with the new ground, then try the same thing for pin 49. For this test, connect 31 back to its brown ground wire, and connect 49 to the spaded wire. Carefully place the other end of the spaded wire in between the cold side of fuse 9 and its holder. Turn power on and see if it chatters.

Or just wait til tomorrow to try the new relay.

Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Sep 25 2009, 04:38 PM

Right now I'm ready to set it on fire. In fact, I already did that. In the hopes that the new relay will be the answer, I started putting some stuff back together. I put the three main instruments back in, as well as the extra temp gauge. Then I took out all of the light bulbs in the rear and front turn signals, brake lights, etc. Tested to see if the relay still squawked. Smoke started billowing out of the dash. I shut off the ignition and was deciding whether to roll it out of the garage for the upcoming car-b-que, because it seemed to be gathering gusto. Well...it stopped. One of the black/blue wires with a bulb on the end of it, for the speedo (which I took apart a week or so ago) had melted all the way down to the copper. This wire had also been spliced into to provide light for the extra temp. gauge. These speedo lights were the same ones that wanted to ignite the other night when they were touching the ignition switch, lit up, and started to cause anther 9/11 in my garage.

I'm very close to flat bedding the car to a "Pro" somewhere and just get my check book raped...I'll wait to see what, if anything, the new relay does, and start working on repairing my harness.

Posted by: Spoke Sep 25 2009, 08:20 PM

Sorry to hear of your car-b-q. It is unfortunate but not the end game. Don't lose hope now. Wait until the new relay arrives then continue on. If it is only one wire that wire can be eliminated and a new wire run in its place.

This advice might be a bit late but it is a good rule to work by when toying with electrical systems: any time you are messing with a lot of wires or lowering the fuse panel, always disconnect the negative cable from the battery. When you have everything situated, then re-connect the battery.

Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Sep 25 2009, 09:15 PM

I hear you...easy to get lazy when you're running back and forth sixty times a day trying out something new...I've learned.

Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Sep 26 2009, 07:18 AM

CAR-B-Q MYSTREY[b] ...so what can be the reason for the blue/black wire on one of the speedometer lights frying? The light was installed in the speedo and the speedo had been reinstalled in the dash. Also had a previous lesser melting on the red/black coming off of fuse #12 (could have been from a PO).

Also, to replace the melted wire (blue/black for speedo light)...it's connected to the light socket, so I need to replace that as well. How does one go about that job?

Posted by: markb Sep 26 2009, 07:34 AM

Black with a blue strip is the illumination circuit for the gauges. You probably had the headlight switch pulled, and something grounded one of the black/blue wires. It might be time to find an old wiring harness to rob for parts.

Don't give up, don't take it to a "Pro". You're really close to figuring this out, and since I've had the same problem on mine for 10 years (& had more than one Pro look at it) I'm interested to see how you fix yours.


BTW, there are more place than just PP & AA.

Posted by: Spoke Sep 26 2009, 07:43 AM

For the melted wire, I think all the illumination lights are powered by the headlight switch. They all come off the light dimmer part of the headlight switch. Go there and look for the fried wire.

Follow the wire as best you can to make sure you have the right one. Cut off the bad part of the wire and tape up the dangling part. Just make sure you have the right wire.

About the light socket, without seeing a pic of it it's hard to tell if it's fried. Anyone with a few extra parts probably has a bunch sitting around for cheap or free. Put out a WTB: ad in the classifieds for one of these. I have a couple but am heading out for a biz trip for a week and don't have time to ship.

Once fixed, try the lights again to make sure nothing else is amiss before reassembly.

Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Sep 26 2009, 08:04 AM

Do tell...here or PM.

Posted by: Gint Sep 26 2009, 08:09 AM

Click the link in Mark's sig...

Edit: Not a link. Make that... call the number in Mark's sig.

Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Sep 26 2009, 08:21 AM

gprparts.com figgered it out.

Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Sep 28 2009, 12:46 PM

Great news (and one small concern). The new relay just arrived. It works! When I hit the brakes, or turn on the lights or the radio, it does not squawk! Here's the one remaining glitch that seems to me to be easily resolved. If you use the four ways or the regular turn signals, activating the flasher relay, the headlights go up and down continuously in sync with the flasher. Great if this were an emergency vehicle. Anyway. obvious to me, the electroignoramous, that this is an easily solved one...some direct connection between the relay and the headlight switch. Help?

Posted by: Spoke Sep 28 2009, 04:15 PM

It sure does sound like something in the flasher circuit is crossed to the headlight motor. Are the headlights on or just the motor is running?

I don't have a schematic with me to help out with this one.

BTW, yea for fixing the chattering relay.

What did you do with the fried wire? That wire was on the headlight switch, correct? And now you have trouble with the headlight motor. Hmmm.....

Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Sep 28 2009, 04:53 PM

The fried wire is an illumination bulb for the speedo.

The headlights aren't coming on, it's just the buckets raising and lowering in sync with the flasher.

Posted by: Spoke Sep 28 2009, 05:24 PM

There's a gray wire on the light switch that controls the up movement of the light buckets. It's connected to pin 56. Check this wire to see that nothing is interfering with it.

Be very careful when moving wires on the light switch as at least one wire (pin 30, red) comes directly from the battery with no fuses.

You can try pulling off the gray wire on pin 56 to see if the headlight bucket movement stops.

Before you remove this wire or even move the light switch, disconnect the battery negative terminal and put a rag or something to keep it from moving back onto the terminal. When you have the switch moved or wire moved and they are not touching anything, then reconnect the negative terminal. You don't need to bolt it back down as the low currents of the motor won't cause a problem and this will save you time. When you make any more movements of wires on the light switch or put it back in, remove the negative terminal again.

Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Sep 28 2009, 06:16 PM

I'll check that out tomorrow morning. I just went out to see what happens if I just pull the light switch. Everything works perfectly.

Isn't there some great "clue" in that with the old relay, everything you turned on caused the relay to go crazy. Now, with it replaced that situation has gone away, but using the relay (turn signal use or 4 way flasher use) causes the buckets to rise and lower in sync with the relays flashes?

Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Sep 28 2009, 07:47 PM

Hmmmmmmmm...looking at the wiring diagram, the blue/black wires that I burnt up...the ones that illuminate the speedo, they go to pin #58 of the headlight switch. The same switch that's activating, to raise the headlights, any time I use the flashers or 4 ways

Posted by: FourBlades Sep 28 2009, 08:41 PM

You are doing great. I think more mechanics are scared of eletrical gremlins
than all the other problems combined.

My guess is bad switch or short inside your dash, maybe the same one that
fried your other wire. Take off the lower dash panel to make getting to wires
in the dash easier. Pull out one seat and put a carpet or something in there
so you can lie comfortably on your back and look up at the wiring.

Changing the switch is tricky because of all the connections. Take good pictures
of it before doing it. Maybe someone has a known good one to loan you. The
simplest answer would be a short inside the switch is causing the headlights
to cycle up and down.

I have connected a 5 amp fuse between the negative terminal and main ground
when initially debugging my car. That way the 5 amper fries before taking your
wiring with it. You can't crank your starter with this set up, but you can test all the
smaller stuff.

When you get it all figured out, come over to my house and help me figure out
why my red car won't start anymore.

John

Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Sep 28 2009, 09:08 PM

Thanks. Great idea about taking out a seat and the lower dash . No idea what you mean about connecting the 5 amp fuse between the negative terminal and the main ground (negative battery terminal? What main ground?). In your second paragraph, am I right in assuming you're referring to the headlight switch? How did a new flasher relay "cure" my old problem while creating a new one if it was th headlight switch all along (asking out of ignorance, not doubt)?

Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Sep 29 2009, 11:07 AM

VICTORY (fingers crossed) !!!

I pulled the headlight switch down, and guess what? One of the gray wires was a "little " fried", exposing a very small section of bare wire. I threw some electrical tape over it, reinstalled the wire (all with the negative terminal off the battery), and everything is operating perfectly.

As it would truly be a bitch to repair that short section of wire, in that tight space without soldering my eyeballs together, is it cool to just do a good job of taping the wire? Is there a "paint on" insulation...like the rubber stuff you can put on tool handles?

Posted by: underthetire Sep 29 2009, 11:18 AM

They do make electrical goo, I would try and slip a piece of shrink tubing over it if you can. The goo makes a mess.

Posted by: Rod Sep 29 2009, 11:49 AM

Fantastic. Many many congratulations!!

(Told you it was the relay )

Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Sep 29 2009, 12:12 PM

Yeah...there was no way to slip any shrink wrap overit. Bought the "goo"...$18 for about an ounce!!!

Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Sep 29 2009, 12:14 PM

Thanks...yeah, I;m thrilled. I'm sure somebody down the road will need to know what I went through and learned throughout this ordeal. Problem is, like all my previous marriages, I've already blocked this painful memory out! On to the carb issues!

Thanks to all!!!

Posted by: Rod Sep 29 2009, 12:21 PM

Thats the wonderful thing about ironing out problems on old cars (especially 914's ) You do quickly forget just how much effort the problem was and move onto the next one I very nearly have a perfect 914, just the.......

Heat Exchangers
Muffler
Brake pads
New Discs
Alt Belt

And I'm there

Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Sep 29 2009, 12:30 PM

As a wise man once said, "The in box is never empty".

Posted by: FourBlades Sep 29 2009, 03:25 PM

Awesome!!! You rock man!!!

I thought you had another problem besides the relay. Your relay
was obviously bad and it was hiding the grey wire short.

The main ground I am referring to is the bolt that the black wire coming
from your battery connects to. If you put a fuse in between there it will
blow first before frying your wires.

You might want to visually inspect whatever dash wires you can find for
more problems. Something caused your guage wires to fry.

But anyway:

John

Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Sep 29 2009, 05:08 PM

Thanks. Not sure when, or how, the gray wire got shorted. Could have been by a PO, or my sloppiness with trouble shooting before I got educated by you guys.

Also, on every schematic I've seen for the 1970, there are two black/red wires going to fuse #11. One is the interior light and the other is the warning light switch (off of the master cylinder / and parking brake I assume). I have one black red going to #11, and the other going to fuse #12 (not sure which one is going to which). The one on fuse #12 was very badly fried (probably because it's a 25amp fuse instead of an 8), but obviously still working since both my interior light and warning light were working. Anyway, I spliced a new wire in there, used the liquid insulator to coat the short on the gray wire on the headlight switch, and buttoned everything back up. Everything is working perfectly.

Since I also fried one of the black/blue illumination wires on the speedometer, I am awaiting a new socket from another member, and will splice that into the harness. I'm soldering and using heat shrink...no electrical tape at all. As soon as I get that done, she'll be "healed".

Posted by: ghuff Sep 29 2009, 05:11 PM

I have bought cars from people for pennies on the dollar due to electrical problems.


I scored my wife's 02 Jetta 1.8T for 3000$ because it had improper fluids, needed suspension bushings and needed about 8 hours worth of sorting out bad grounds and sketchy bosch connectors.


20 or so hours later, I had a 6000-7000$ car.

Electrical and fuel injection/running problems are the worst things.


Congrats on the victory Ken. I expect you to bring it by sometime to keep the blue car company.

If we keep them far enough apart, your car should not catch the jackstands from mine.

Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Sep 29 2009, 05:20 PM

I want those jackstands! Anybody know who has shorties? Mine are 12" minimum, and I hate jacking the car up that high.

P.S. Hope O.C. was good to you.

Posted by: ghuff Sep 29 2009, 09:22 PM

Thanks man.

You can have the brown stands if you want them! All 4. They came with a 1975 scirocco years ago.

I just need to pick up two more to match my two adjustable ratcheting stands.

OC was great, motsly bro'ng out, drinking beer and getting all fucked up while being silly since it rained.

Pretty fun weekend.

Posted by: Spoke Sep 30 2009, 12:50 PM

It's Miller Time!

Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Sep 30 2009, 12:53 PM

May I have a Killian's? Thanks again for your help.

Posted by: markb Sep 30 2009, 02:41 PM

Glad you got it figured out. Looks like I'll need to do a little work on my switches someday.

Posted by: kenshapiro2002 Sep 30 2009, 03:12 PM

Piece o' cake (rather have root canal)!
KK