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914World.com _ FS/WANTED: 914 Cars and Rollers _ FS: No Way this is a Real '70 914-6 on Ebay
Posted by: Mike Fitton Aug 25 2014, 03:14 PM
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1970-Porsche-914-914-6-039-s-Matching-/201155125230?&_trksid=p2056016.l4276
There is a lot wrong with this car:
adjustable passenger seat with '75-'76 large basket weave.
Dash knobs incorrect.
Drivers seat back cushion large basket weave, bottom cushion small basket weave.
COA say originally Tangerine, I don't see Tangerine anywhere on this car, paint code plate is either painted over or missing.
Door panels large basket weave.
Throttle handle red.
That's enough, someone else chime in.
Posted by: mskala Aug 25 2014, 03:55 PM
There is nothing wrong with the dash knobs.
Been repainted though.
Seat belts are late type, probably done the same time as seats/backpad.
I don't know the cutoff year or time, but my car does not have the round
piece of frame in front of the spare.
Missing drain tube from fuel overflow.
Also I don't know when it started, but my early car does not have the
charcoal canister.
Toolkit is ridiculous.
Early cars had the jack mounts at the rear left of the trunk.
In his 'spare parts' box is an engine lid drain tube that -6's did not have.
15" Fuchs are not original but nice.
No headlight surrounds. Also, they should be the white ones.
Posted by: lostreasure Aug 25 2014, 04:48 PM
Appears stamped vin in front compartment has been cut out and a 914-6 number placed?
Posted by: Mike Fitton Aug 25 2014, 05:47 PM
Dash knobs are late ones aren't they? Hazard knob should have the "VW" logo in the middle and Headlight knob should just have the light logo no writing, where is the fog light switch? Also vin plate in front trunk looks like it was added after paint, there is overspray everywhere and none on that plate. The round door vents should not have the plastic screens in them. The back trunk does not belong to this car.
Posted by: MLedesma Aug 25 2014, 06:02 PM
Round supports around the spare tire did not come on early cars. Underbody style swaybar didn't come on any 914.
Posted by: roblav1 Aug 25 2014, 06:08 PM
Passenger seatback looks wrong. The right rear long underneath (at the bend) looks "crooked"... like a -4 engine mount was cut out. Mo evidence whatsoever of the original color.
Did the front trunks in 1970 have those supports?
Something smells wrong!
Posted by: Garold Shaffer Aug 25 2014, 06:40 PM
OK I will say it. It is a late car that has the /6 parts added. Front trunk is wrong, rear trunk jack holder is wrong, late cover on shift rod at firewall. Pull the passenger side carpet and I bet you find a late style foam insert. Also /6 wiper motors are different, I would need to pull the fresh air blower to confirm.
Also you can't add late style seat belts to an early firewall with out making mods to it.
Posted by: Mike Fitton Aug 25 2014, 06:43 PM
Dash heat/air control unit is a later one. I don't see the vin listed in the registry here.
Posted by: mskala Aug 25 2014, 07:01 PM
Dash knobs are late ones aren't they? Hazard knob should have the "VW" logo in the middle and Headlight knob should just have the light logo no writing, where is the fog light switch?
My apologies, after looking at mine, you are right.
Whoever said where is the fog light switch, it could be that the car did
not come with fogs. If they moved all the parts to another car, that
pretty much explains everything, including why there is no trace of
tangerine anywhere. Either this guy is a crook or he got taken by
somebody else and is not aware.
Posted by: rhodyguy Aug 25 2014, 07:03 PM
So that's what $27k plus WILL NOT buy these days. There's rust every where coming thru the white over red paint. Little wrongs are easy fixes. Very shoddy over all. I'd rather a well done conversion for that kind of money.
Posted by: pete000 Aug 25 2014, 11:45 PM
This is a spooky one.
I see some orange on the headlight lids but thats about all for the orig orange paint evidence.
The trunk id number look to have a lot of yellow paint around them and it is on the right, not in the center ?
That front fender vin looks to be clearly cut and welded in, didnt even make an effort to hide the seam !!! 
Front torsion bar adjusters are late.
If it was a real 1970 chassis some one went through a lot of work to ad all the late sheet metal bits (seat belt mounts, front support, jack mounting relocation, passenger seat mounting, cabin vent caps, etc..) 
If any car shouts vin swap this one sure does... 
The orig 914-6 dash would be fairly easy to swap into another chassis.
Hand brake is from a late chassis.
Has later larger rear view mirror, often a replacement.
Late rear bumpers are often found on orig 6's due to replacements.
The charcoal canister came on the USA 914-6's (Mine has one.)
COA is nice, but the chassis looks late to me ! 
Run, don't walk ! ! ! ! !
Posted by: Cuda911 Aug 26 2014, 01:17 AM
Bidding's up to $38,600.
I guess plenty of bidders on this car aren't 914world members!
Good observations, guys!!!
Posted by: carr914 Aug 26 2014, 04:30 AM
I smell a Lawsuit down the Road. But then again Idiots are bidding this Turd up.
Even if it was Real, a few years ago this would have been a $12,000 Restoration candidate
Posted by: mepstein Aug 26 2014, 06:05 AM
no center dash vent
Posted by: mskala Aug 26 2014, 06:33 AM
Shouldn't somebody 'Ask a Question' on ebay asking if the guy selling knows
this is a not real?
Posted by: Mblizzard Aug 26 2014, 06:41 AM
Shouldn't somebody 'Ask a Question' on ebay asking if the guy selling knows
this is a not real?
I did this morning. Will keep you posted. Looks very odd when you add up all of the things mentioned.
Funny, I just went back and checked and my question does not appear on the site???
Posted by: carr914 Aug 26 2014, 06:47 AM
Seller has the Option of whether your Question appears or not
Posted by: Mblizzard Aug 26 2014, 06:53 AM
Seller has the Option of whether your Question appears or not
That may explain a lot!
Posted by: rhodyguy Aug 26 2014, 07:02 AM
it explains EVERYTHING!!! although i haven't looked at the listing this am i get a whiff of shill biding.
Posted by: Garold Shaffer Aug 26 2014, 07:03 AM
Shouldn't somebody 'Ask a Question' on ebay asking if the guy selling knows
this is a not real?
I did this morning. Will keep you posted. Looks very odd when you add up all of the things mentioned.
Funny, I just went back and checked and my question does not appear on the site???
I did too. I called their number in the ad, no answer. Since they have a 100% feedback rating on ebay and they have sold other cars I would think they would know this car is not correct, but then again maybe they don't and think the COA is all they need?
If they respond / call back I am not going to be a jerk, just want to point out they really need to look this car over because a vin swap car is a no - no
Posted by: rhodyguy Aug 26 2014, 07:26 AM
what a pos. someone explain this to me…so there's *9149430649* in one picture and then 293956 in another? wtf? not enough time this am to point out every WRONG with this car. BUT, it would be nice if this nearly $40k car had the driver's side door bin and shouldered clamps on the carbs. what are the legal ramifications as it appears to being offered by a business? i wonder if the guy in one of the pictures even noticed his mugshot?
Posted by: Mike Fitton Aug 26 2014, 07:30 AM
it explains EVERYTHING!!! although i haven't looked at the listing this am i get a whiff of shill biding.
Not sure if it is shill bidding with 9 different bidders. I can't believe this is already at $39,000 with 6 days to go.
Posted by: rhodyguy Aug 26 2014, 07:34 AM
i have 9 friends.
i rarely even look at ebay. only when other surfers provide links. how does one view the bid history and who's doing the biding?
i hope we don't have to break the news to a new member that joins world and posts pictures of their NEW 6.
Posted by: mskala Aug 26 2014, 07:40 AM
I tend to believe the seller doesn't know (although some of the things
_should_ have indicated if they are not turning the other way). Why post
the obvious suspect fender VIN stamp if you knew? Why write up all the
'rust-free' nonsense when the pictures show it has seen better days? Why
show the rear trunk stamp? I can't decode those but some people can and
it would indicate a different year body.
Also, even if bidders think the car is real, what would make it worth $40K+?
So much would need to be fixed on the car.
Posted by: Mike Fitton Aug 26 2014, 07:50 AM
i wonder if the guy in one of the pictures even noticed his mugshot?
Just in case someone needs this photo after the auction:
Posted by: Racer Chris Aug 26 2014, 08:13 AM
Hand brake is from a late chassis.
The definitive answer is right next to the hand brake hidden by carpet.
If the hand pocket formed in the inner long panel goes to the bottom its a late chassis which can not be 914-6.
Early chassis' had the hand pocket formed only halfway to the bottom.
Posted by: roblav1 Aug 26 2014, 08:27 AM
http://s138.photobucket.com/user/fast4401/media/70442/70914ORSCHE/IMG_2150.jpg.html
Final straw for me that VIN does not match chassis. That is the factory glue which is now turned a rust color over factory Light Ivory paint.
Posted by: rhodyguy Aug 26 2014, 08:35 AM
ahhh… the fine print…
1 "engine turns freely". that's good!
2 "brakes still functioning". one would hope so for $40k.
3. "ran when parked". speaks for itself 
.
and then, "we are confident…". that's a 'maybe but not sure' to me.
Posted by: Gustl Aug 26 2014, 09:07 AM
someone explain this to me…so there's *9149430649* in one picture and then 293956 in another? wtf?
well, that's easy ...
9140430649 = VIN
293956 = Karmann body number ... but not of a 914-6
(and there's a digit missing anyway)
Posted by: rhodyguy Aug 26 2014, 09:09 AM
that's the 3rd strike on the 3rd batter (baseball).
Posted by: toolguy Aug 26 2014, 09:32 AM
The really big tipoff is the hidden trunk vin and it's location. .
that is NOT A REAL SIX body. .
a six has the Karman vin in the center of the trunk. . only
Four's had it on the right rear side as shown in the pictures, ,
Front with the curved reinforcing panel in fornt of the spare is from late models
Best guess this is a 75 body. .
Posted by: Gustl Aug 26 2014, 10:19 AM
only the early ones ... later cars had it on the right side of the rear trunk (like the 4-cyl)
only up to (about) June 1974 - then it was moved to the front bonnet, on a little tag on the passengers' side spare wheel room
with a non-matching rear trunk ...
Posted by: Jonathan Livesay Aug 26 2014, 10:21 AM
I get the impression that the seller really doesn't know. With the shear number of things that say, if not shout, "re bodied" you would have to be either ignorant or an idiot (or both) to keep on calling it a "numbers matching" real 914/6. It's like whoever built it didn't even try. Still a lot of cool parts, I'd pay 8-10K for it. Maybe at the impound auction? 
Posted by: johnhora Aug 26 2014, 10:45 AM
May have been the original 914-6 was totaled/scrapped and parts moved to this apparent 914-4 body.
Lots of six parts there
Front sway bar from 74' and later 911.
VIN not on Stazak's list
Posted by: pete000 Aug 26 2014, 11:03 AM
They should have at least used a early chassis to do the conversion if the six got totaled back in the day. This car will end up in a Police impound yard.
Parts car at best...
Ebay should pull the auction.
Posted by: Mike Fitton Aug 26 2014, 11:56 AM
From the Ebay listing:
"Winning bidder understands the purchase is a used vehicle with faults consistent with It's use and age, especially antique, classic and racing vehicles. Unforeseen problems may exist that Fast440 and the vehicle owner are unaware of, and the description of the above vehicle is based on a signed agreement between the vehicle owner and Fast440. Further description is based on observations by Fast440 agents through our familiarity with above vehicle while it is on our showroom floor"
Well I guess the seller Fast440 is off the hook. Hope the vehicle owner is a real person who can be tracked down after the auction.
Posted by: carr914 Aug 26 2014, 12:28 PM
I don't think they are off the hook as they have been warned/told that it is a VIN Swap
Posted by: Kaeferfreund Aug 26 2014, 01:24 PM
only the early ones ... later cars had it on the right side of the rear trunk (like the 4-cyl)
only up to (about) June 1974 - then it was moved to the front bonnet, on a little tag on the passengers' side spare wheel room
with a non-matching rear trunk ...
Hi Gustl,
that car has been offered in Germany for a ridiculous price, too....
Kaeferfreund
Posted by: PancakePorsche Aug 26 2014, 08:13 PM
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1970-Porsche-914-914-6-039-s-Matching-/201155125230?&_trksid=p2056016.l4276
There is a lot wrong with this car:
adjustable passenger seat with '75-'76 large basket weave.
Dash knobs incorrect.
Drivers seat back cushion large basket weave, bottom cushion small basket weave.
COA say originally Tangerine, I don't see Tangerine anywhere on this car, paint code plate is either painted over or missing.
Door panels large basket weave.
Throttle handle red.
That's enough, someone else chime in.
I love the cut out window were the original 6 vin was welded in from the back and disguised with black paint. You can see were drip funnels were once mounted and you get one of the funnels as a bonus !
Posted by: dlkawashima Aug 27 2014, 12:19 AM
Remember this old thread about the morality/legality of moving VIN tags from a rusty hulk -6 to a clean -4? If not, go back and check out it out ... makes for interesting reading.
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=195566
Posted by: PancakePorsche Aug 27 2014, 02:26 AM
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1970-Porsche-914-914-6-039-s-Matching-/201155125230?&_trksid=p2056016.l4276
There is a lot wrong with this car:
adjustable passenger seat with '75-'76 large basket weave.
Dash knobs incorrect.
Drivers seat back cushion large basket weave, bottom cushion small basket weave.
COA say originally Tangerine, I don't see Tangerine anywhere on this car, paint code plate is either painted over or missing.
Door panels large basket weave.
Throttle handle red.
That's enough, someone else chime in.
Body is early 1974. Someone went through a lot of trouble to fool nobody. If this dealer bought this car from someone or some auction, they are getting that sick, sinking feeling right about now.
Posted by: rhodyguy Aug 27 2014, 07:00 AM
How about the blue car @ 62k? Reserve appears to have been met with time left. Wow!
Posted by: Cairo94507 Aug 27 2014, 08:31 AM
This car definitely has a later front clip at the minimum. I do not see what everyone is talking about re the front fender VIN being seamed in. It looks to me like the VIN was taped over and then the trunk sprayed and the tape pulled. I do not see evidence of that VIN being welded in. Also the rest of the observations are accurate, adjustable passenger seat (pretty common upgrade on early cars with the fixed seat). Door panels replaced, jack mount missing, etc. I am not sure about it being a chassis swap as I do not know about the rear trunk number sequences and my car is in VA so I can't remember where that number belongs.... But this car at the minimum needs a complete and thorough inspection by a 914-6 expert to determine what it is or isn't. Just having a COA does not make it a real Six.
Posted by: dlkawashima Aug 27 2014, 09:01 AM
Hmmm, just clicked on the link now and got ...
"This listing was ended by the seller because there was an error in the listing."
Posted by: Michael N Aug 27 2014, 11:36 AM
Adding some photos for future reference once the ebay listing is removed.
Vin 9140430649 .
Posted by: Jonathan Livesay Aug 27 2014, 12:30 PM
This car definitely has a later front clip at the minimum. I do not see what everyone is talking about re the front fender VIN being seamed in. It looks to me like the VIN was taped over and then the trunk sprayed and the tape pulled. I do not see evidence of that VIN being welded in. Also the rest of the observations are accurate, adjustable passenger seat (pretty common upgrade on early cars with the fixed seat). Door panels replaced, jack mount missing, etc. I am not sure about it being a chassis swap as I do not know about the rear trunk number sequences and my car is in VA so I can't remember where that number belongs.... But this car at the minimum needs a complete and thorough inspection by a 914-6 expert to determine what it is or isn't. Just having a COA does not make it a real Six.
Agree with you on the front vin, but if it got a front clip then it got a back clip as well since the chassis serial number is for a 4 cyl, both in sequence and location, and the jack mounts are for '73 and on. So then I guess the question would be does the passenger compartment floor show signs of having the adjustable passenger seat retro-fitted or did the car maybe get a center clip at some time?
So at the very least we have a car which during it's life needed a new front clip at some point a new rear clip at some point and a new pan at some point, but managed to hang on to it's original engine.
Posted by: Kaeferfreund Aug 27 2014, 12:36 PM
Ebay-auction ended ?
But the car -I'm sure it is- still available here:
http://dmcclassiccars.com/cars/porsche-9146/
Posted by: gcrotvik Aug 27 2014, 01:30 PM
I sent the seller a message early yesterday morning explaining that he/they should check out the providence of the car. I explained briefly why I thought the car was not a real 6. I received a terse response telling me to f off. I replied with a link to this thread. I’m not surprised he pulled it off eBay. It is possible the seller did not know the car wasn’t a real 6. Of course, that doesn’t explain why the car is for sale elsewhere as a real 6. I suspect they are limiting their exposure. Maybe they think if they sell it locally and the next owner doesn’t know it’s history, their problem is solved.
Here is the given reason for removing the ad from eBay.
Attached image(s)
Posted by: rhodyguy Aug 27 2014, 01:41 PM
I imagine the 'good folks' @allamericanclassic had a crappy morning. Perhaps one of the guests reading the thread. Damn smarty pants 914 owners!
Posted by: dlkawashima Aug 27 2014, 02:22 PM
Adding some photos for future reference once the ebay listing is removed.
Also, the front trunk ...
... and the adjustable passenger seat with the retractable seat belt and the '75-'76 weave pattern
Posted by: Millerwelds Aug 27 2014, 03:13 PM
At some point in the future after this car changes hands some new owner is going to log on to this site and introduce themselves and their new real 6......
Having this history here is essential!
Great job guys 
Posted by: eric9144 Aug 27 2014, 05:19 PM
Sad really because when the unsuspecting buyer pics it up and it gets inspected by the DMV for registration it very well could end up being flagged for the obvious VIN discrepancies and rot in an impound yard, or never see the streets again...
Clearly a later chassis with all (most) of the /6 parts swapped onto it...
Posted by: carr914 Aug 27 2014, 05:53 PM
Sad really because when the unsuspecting buyer pics it up and it gets inspected by the DMV for registration it very well could end up being flagged for the obvious VIN discrepancies and rot in an impound yard, or never see the streets again...
Clearly a later chassis with all (most) of the /6 parts swapped onto it...
Or the Buyer could get it registered and a couple years later finds out he paid $50k for an abortion and it's too late to sue!
Posted by: warpig Aug 28 2014, 04:18 AM
I sent the seller a message early yesterday morning explaining that he/they should check out the providence of the car. I explained briefly why I thought the car was not a real 6. I received a terse response telling me to f off. I replied with a link to this thread. I’m not surprised he pulled it off eBay. It is possible the seller did not know the car wasn’t a real 6. Of course, that doesn’t explain why the car is for sale elsewhere as a real 6. I suspect they are limiting their exposure. Maybe they think if they sell it locally and the next owner doesn’t know it’s history, their problem is solved.
Here is the given reason for removing the ad from eBay.
I also sent an inquiry asking if he had a response to the "experts" consensus that it was not an original 6 with a link to this thread before going to bed this am. (working nights) When I checked the ad when I got up this afternoon it had been pulled.
I didn't get a personal thank you for pointing out this potential discrepancy though,
So I am feeling little left out. 
Posted by: Mike Fitton Aug 28 2014, 08:45 AM
Yeah, I think I got taken on Ebay also, I will let you know when my COA arrives. Seller told me it was a real 914-6, it does have the badging on the back. Only thing that was correct on the listing was the body was down to bare metal and ready for paint.
Posted by: budk Aug 28 2014, 09:11 AM
I sent the seller a message early yesterday morning explaining that he/they should check out the providence of the car. I explained briefly why I thought the car was not a real 6. I received a terse response telling me to f off. I replied with a link to this thread. I’m not surprised he pulled it off eBay. It is possible the seller did not know the car wasn’t a real 6. Of course, that doesn’t explain why the car is for sale elsewhere as a real 6. I suspect they are limiting their exposure. Maybe they think if they sell it locally and the next owner doesn’t know it’s history, their problem is solved.
Here is the given reason for removing the ad from eBay.
I also sent an inquiry asking if he had a response to the "experts" consensus that it was not an original 6 with a link to this thread before going to bed this am. (working nights) When I checked the ad when I got up this afternoon it had been pulled.
I didn't get a personal thank you for pointing out this potential discrepancy though,
So I am feeling little left out. Don't feel left out, a few of us sent inquiries earlier this week, so it was likely the volume of inquiries that got this pulled. The credit goes to the knowledgable experts who identified all the oddities.
Posted by: Millerwelds Aug 28 2014, 11:02 AM
Yeah, I think I got taken on Ebay also, I will let you know when my COA arrives. Seller told me it was a real 914-6, it does have the badging on the back. Only thing that was correct on the listing was the body was down to bare metal and ready for paint.
So are the wheels AND TIRES!
Posted by: Chris H. Aug 28 2014, 11:58 AM
Yeah, I think I got taken on Ebay also, I will let you know when my COA arrives. Seller told me it was a real 914-6, it does have the badging on the back. Only thing that was correct on the listing was the body was down to bare metal and ready for paint.
I wouldn't worry about it Mike. Looks legit.
Posted by: Cairo94507 Aug 29 2014, 07:04 AM
Hey, send that to Scotty and it will look brand new again! Seriously, I love that; how big is it? Where did you get it?
Posted by: Mike Fitton Aug 29 2014, 07:18 AM
Hey, send that to Scotty and it will look brand new again! Seriously, I love that; how big is it? Where did you get it?
Got it on Ebay! It is 17" x 7" and really just a one off piece, I have not seen anything like it before. Artist signed the piece "Joel Marketello" never heard of him but he put a lot of work into this, its awesome!
Posted by: veekry9 Aug 29 2014, 06:26 PM
These are all very interesting questions of ethical and moral character of a used car salesman.
To get a true insight into the legal ramifications of said #swapping,look up the legal arguments in the case of the 250GTO guy in France/Switzerland.
He loved those cars and would buy a 330 or two and rebody the cars and sell them as replicas.The rebodies were executed by former panelbeaters of the anointed original maker and were,for a better word, "perfect'.The market for the cars was significant as you may know,and for good reason.Those were expensive cars and were,by no means shoddy or second rate.You could however take it for a spin on public roads without the risk of a 'significant' loss.
A team of lawyers descended on the guy and were about to send him to eternity but for a timely intervention.
Google to discover who intervened,like a whodunit,and why.
Posted by: Cairo94507 Aug 29 2014, 10:17 PM
Thanks Mike- It is a nice piece.
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