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914World.com _ FS/WANTED: 914 Cars and Rollers _ No longer up for consideration
Posted by: boxstr Mar 28 2017, 07:32 PM
Adios
Posted by: boxstr Mar 28 2017, 07:35 PM
More
Posted by: boxstr Mar 28 2017, 07:38 PM
More
Posted by: boxstr Mar 28 2017, 07:42 PM
Adios[attachmentid=598550] [attachmentid=598550]
Posted by: echocanyons Mar 28 2017, 08:41 PM
Are these metal flares that are riveted on?
Posted by: boxstr Mar 28 2017, 08:59 PM
Adios
Posted by: dug Mar 29 2017, 12:04 AM
Conversion?... Confused. 
Posted by: 914z Mar 29 2017, 01:57 AM
Conversion?... Confused.
It has a 3.2! So it is a "conversion"
Posted by: Cairo94507 Mar 29 2017, 06:14 AM
He lists the Six VIN- so it is a real Six. Upgraded to 3.2. At that price, it will not last long at all.
Yeah, I am not a fan of the riveted on flares, the inside rear trunk sway bar, but those are relatively easy fixes considering all you are getting with that car, assuming it is all it is represented to be. GLWTS.
Posted by: dug Mar 29 2017, 11:10 PM
He lists the Six VIN- so it is a real Six.
I recommend consulting an expert before assuming that a VIN makes something "real".
Posted by: gereed75 Mar 30 2017, 05:39 AM
C'mon Dug. FYI Craig is one of the foremost "experts" and knows the difference between a real six and a fake one and his integrity is unquestionable.
Posted by: Cairo94507 Mar 30 2017, 06:54 AM
And let's not forget the last words in my post, "...assuming it is all it is represented to be".
Posted by: boxstr Mar 30 2017, 07:23 AM
No
Posted by: gms Mar 30 2017, 09:43 AM
C'mon Dug. FYI Craig is one of the foremost "experts" and knows the difference between a real six and a fake one and his integrity is unquestionable.
I agree with Dug, this looks like a 1973-74 914/4 body with some 914/6 parts. I will be happy to comment on specific photos if you would like.
Posted by: Garold Shaffer Mar 30 2017, 10:33 AM
If this is a real /6 then how come it has a later style jack holder in the rear trunk? what's the vin on the right front fender say?
Posted by: gcrotvik Mar 30 2017, 10:46 AM
edit
Posted by: Mike Fitton Mar 30 2017, 10:58 AM
Vin tag looks like it is the removable/transferable type! Lol!
Posted by: boxsterfan Mar 30 2017, 12:21 PM
If this is a real /6 then how come it has a later style jack holder in the rear trunk? what's the vin on the right front fender say?
Chassis number in trunk?
Is it possible to take a pic of the underside of the dash while it is still installed to see what is there?
Posted by: Larmo63 Mar 30 2017, 12:35 PM
Obvious conversion. Nice car, but conversion.
I've never seen metal flares tacked on.
It isn't April Fool's Day yet.
Posted by: gcrotvik Mar 30 2017, 12:46 PM
If this is a real /6 then how come it has a later style jack holder in the rear trunk? what's the vin on the right front fender say?
Chassis number in trunk?
Is it possible to take a pic of the underside of the dash while it is still installed to see what is there?
Unfortunately, no.
Posted by: gms Mar 30 2017, 01:14 PM
The side vents on the dash are a give away that it is probably not a 914/6 part
If this is a real /6 then how come it has a later style jack holder in the rear trunk? what's the vin on the right front fender say?
Chassis number in trunk?
Is it possible to take a pic of the underside of the dash while it is still installed to see what is there?
Unfortunately, no. You need to remove the entire dash carrier frame to see the handwritten chassis number. But, this has a 6 dash so it most likely was taken from the same car as the windshield VIN tag, so it would match.
Posted by: boxstr Mar 30 2017, 01:39 PM
No
Posted by: Mike Fitton Mar 30 2017, 01:45 PM
The vin # is listed in the 914-6 database here under current owner and member: drgchapman
Glenn, this is the guy who was selling the 914-6 tool kit for $450.
Posted by: gereed75 Mar 30 2017, 02:16 PM
Ok....sorry about the rash statement made about someone I thought was making a rash statement. Did not look that closely at the pictures and missed the rash on the car.
Standing by my statement about Craig....expert with integrity intact.
Posted by: RobW Mar 30 2017, 02:32 PM
The vin # is listed in the 914-6 database here under current owner and member: drgchapman
Glenn, this is the guy who was selling the 914-6 tool kit for $450.
If drgchapman is the current owner, I can say that he's a stand up guy AFIK. He did a favor for me about 10 years ago, which was much appreciated at the time. Not many people would volunteer to help a world member out using their time and effort but drgchapman did so for me.
As far as the car, 15 years ago a 914/6 was worth 9-10K and many were rebuilt or redone in a variety of ways. Dug would know from experience. I would agree and recommend a full inspection. I would be all over this car if I didn't have the same kind of thing in my garage already.
+1 on Craig as well.
Posted by: 6freak Mar 30 2017, 02:45 PM
C'mon Dug. FYI Craig is one of the foremost "experts" and knows the difference between a real six and a fake one and his integrity is unquestionable.
I agree with Dug, this looks like a 1973-74 914/4 body with some 914/6 parts. I will be happy to comment on specific photos if you would like.
Check the jack location not a six
But SUPER COOL HOT ROD LOVE IT and GLWTS
Posted by: Mike Fitton Mar 30 2017, 02:52 PM
The vin # is listed in the 914-6 database here under current owner and member: drgchapman
Glenn, this is the guy who was selling the 914-6 tool kit for $450.
If drgchapman is the current owner, I can say that he's a stand up guy AFIK. He did a favor for me about 10 years ago, which was much appreciated at the time. Not many people would volunteer to help a world member out using their time and effort but drgchapman did so for me.
As far as the car, 15 years ago a 914/6 was worth 9-10K and many were rebuilt or redone in a variety of ways. Dug would know from experience. I would agree and recommend a full inspection. I would be all over this car if I didn't have the same kind of thing in my garage already.
+1 on Craig as well.
Why transfer the 914-6 vin number then, if that is all that is from the original 6? Not cool in my opinion.
Posted by: 6freak Mar 30 2017, 02:57 PM
The vin # is listed in the 914-6 database here under current owner and member: drgchapman
Glenn, this is the guy who was selling the 914-6 tool kit for $450.
If drgchapman is the current owner, I can say that he's a stand up guy AFIK. He did a favor for me about 10 years ago, which was much appreciated at the time. Not many people would volunteer to help a world member out using their time and effort but drgchapman did so for me.
As far as the car, 15 years ago a 914/6 was worth 9-10K and many were rebuilt or redone in a variety of ways. Dug would know from experience. I would agree and recommend a full inspection. I would be all over this car if I didn't have the same kind of thing in my garage already.
+1 on Craig as well.
Why transfer the 914-6 vin number then, if that is all that is from the original 6? Not cool in my opinion.
$$ and I agree..nothing six on that car....but it still cool
Posted by: mepstein Mar 30 2017, 03:05 PM
In my original text and emails to and from the owner of this car, it is a 1970 914-6. I sent the selller a text regarding the comments on the 914 world and this is what I got back.
"they are correct, the 914-6 was grafted to a 74 tub. The guy I bought it from as a rotissserie restoration did the work. The left fender has the 914 VIN on it.
So, I will list it as a 914-6 conversion. Thand you 914 world for making me take a closer look at this car. The car came in late Sunday and I took a few pics and the information I was given and listed it here without doing my due dilegence.
Honestly, I would not list a conversion as a real six if I knew that it was a conversion. Obviously it is going to get found out somewhere , sometime.
Craig at CAMP
Ouch. Seller really needs to explain that upfront. A less friendly group of people would call that fraud.
Posted by: boxsterfan Mar 30 2017, 03:18 PM
I'll start the bidding at $18,000. It does have a 3.2L in it and looks fairly clean despite the dirty history now attached to the car.
Posted by: SirAndy Mar 30 2017, 03:18 PM
Looking through drgchapman posting history, he started selling lots of original /6 parts starting around July 2012.
I think it's pretty clear how and when that /4 tub got its /6 VIN ...
Posted by: Cal Mar 30 2017, 03:34 PM
So now that we all know it's a conversion does the price drop.....
Posted by: sixnotfour Mar 30 2017, 04:43 PM
The guy who did the conversion , built the way he wanted and had to sell it..no mystery, I brought the 3.2 up from CA for Gary,,, there is a build post on some 914 forum somewhere.... Its a conversion that happens to have a 914 serial number.. leave it at that.. good racecar/hotrod
Posted by: SirAndy Mar 30 2017, 05:15 PM
I'm not sure why you think fraud should be left alone and not talked about?
Posted by: sixnotfour Mar 30 2017, 05:17 PM
I'm not sure why you think fraud should be left alone and not talked about?
it can be, but its clearly not a OG six..find the original build on the car..
its been misrepresented.. not by the owner. is what I am saying,
doesn't make it right....what guys do who buy Chinese Camaro/57 Chevy/Charger body's and their VINs,
buyer beware
at least its German metal
Posted by: SirAndy Mar 30 2017, 05:34 PM
I'm not sure why you think fraud should be left alone and not talked about?
its been misrepresented.. not by the owner. is what I am saying
There is only one reason i can think of why someone would put a /6 VIN on a /4 car.
Someone made the conscious decision to swap the VIN on this car and there is no doubt about the motive.
If you read the first post in this thread, it's also clear that the current owner "forgot" to inform Craig about that little detail when he asked him to sell the car for him.
Posted by: mepstein Mar 30 2017, 06:00 PM
Is a vin altered car legal to sell?
Posted by: boxstr Mar 30 2017, 07:23 PM
no
Posted by: gcrotvik Mar 30 2017, 08:15 PM
Is a vin altered car legal to sell?
I don't believe so.
Posted by: Mike Fitton Mar 31 2017, 06:46 AM
If it is registered with the swapped in 914-6 vin # then it is fraud right?
Posted by: sixaddict Mar 31 2017, 07:40 AM
I don't normally like to get into the battles on opinions, but clearly the owner needs to revise pricing on this to reflect what it is .........I know Craig well enough to know he was not part of any deception, but he hardly needs me to stand up for him.....he does what we all do occasionally miss something because we are too busy.
I feel the current pricing is not rational and would also lead one to the incorrect conclusion this is real....
Just another opinion but this one could be legally tricky. I feel there is probably a way to handle it to make it "clean" but altered VINs are clearly not legal.
Oh nice car 
Posted by: My 914 Mar 31 2017, 09:16 AM
well said
Posted by: Blue6 Mar 31 2017, 09:50 AM
The owner clearly wanted to dump this ride on an unsuspecting buyer. With the vin switch, the car is not legal. Only a matter of time before a well trained Highway Patrol officer digs deeper than a registration check, impounds it, and has it crushed. He who is holding the hot potato when time is called, will be the loser. Several threads on early 911's with the same results.
Now as far as a race car. Cut the suspect VIN out, stamp a chassis number for a log book, and your good to go. Assuming the 914-6, 914-4, and engine numbers are all clean.
And yes, knowledge of the VIN switch and sale of the car, would constitute fraud.
Posted by: rhodyguy Mar 31 2017, 09:57 AM
IBTL
Posted by: RFoulds Apr 3 2017, 05:49 PM
I got banned from the 914 Forum on Facebook for stating this, so I am prepared to be flamed.
This car is not an example of "VIN Swapping" Yes VIN swapping is illegal. In vintage cars, this is considered by builders to be a "re-bodied car"
the majority of cars that win at Pebble beach are re-bodied cars. in vintage restoration shops, if you OWN both cars, and you want the tags from the rusty shitty car moved to the restored chassis, it is considered ethical and legal. DMV does not care as long as there are not two cars with the same VIN, and neither was stolen. the rusty tub should now have the other VIN and be crushed.
Randy Ema, who builds Pebble beach winning Dusenbergs for Jay Leno, says often: bring me the VIN, registration and the pictures, and I will build you an original Dusenberg.
Had this car been properly documented as a rebodied car, and had the builder used the correct year tub as a donor, and been alert to the differences in early versus later cars, this probably wouldnt have been such an isssue.
I was just at a car show on Friday, where an original Maserati Mille Miglia was on display, valued at $1.4 million. the entire body and engine are non-original.
Posted by: era vulgaris Apr 3 2017, 07:03 PM
Epic post # to temp being banned and flamed 
Apologies for the interruption...carry on!
Attached thumbnail(s)
Posted by: mepstein Apr 3 2017, 07:04 PM
That vin got put into the wrong body since that body wasn't just not a six, it couldn't pass for a six.
Posted by: rick 918-S Apr 4 2017, 05:34 AM
I got banned from the 914 Forum on Facebook for stating this, so I am prepared to be flamed.
This car is not an example of "VIN Swapping" Yes VIN swapping is illegal. In vintage cars, this is considered by builders to be a "re-bodied car"
the majority of cars that win at Pebble beach are re-bodied cars. in vintage restoration shops, if you OWN both cars, and you want the tags from the rusty shitty car moved to the restored chassis, it is considered ethical and legal. DMV does not care as long as there are not two cars with the same VIN, and neither was stolen. the rusty tub should now have the other VIN and be crushed.
Randy Ema, who builds Pebble beach winning Dusenbergs for Jay Leno, says often: bring me the VIN, registration and the pictures, and I will build you an original Dusenberg.
Had this car been properly documented as a rebodied car, and had the builder used the correct year tub as a donor, and been alert to the differences in early versus later cars, this probably wouldnt have been such an isssue.
I was just at a car show on Friday, where an original Maserati Mille Miglia was on display, valued at $1.4 million. the entire body and engine are non-original.
It fascinates me to see cars that are recreated by hand from a vin # and somehow that is ok but a guy can't take a rusted hulk not worthy of repair, purchase shell, re-body the car and have it somehow called less than legal.
It also interests me to see cars that have rusted well beyond the point of safe repairs using large sections from other cars and that is somehow accepted as an original car. Where is the line when repairing a rusted hulk using a donor car as a platform for repairing a more valuable car? Not saying I agree or disagree. Just always wondered.
In the collision business clipping was always considered not legal and not safe. ( half of one car and half of another) I never did that but know of a shop that did it all the time.
Also in the collision business the vin. number is often supplied on the bill of sale from the salvage yard so there is no doubt the parts are not from a stolen car. Does that happen when a rusted hulk is restored using a donor car?
The car in question here clearly was not done to a standard that would be acceptable to the restoration crowd. But what if it was? What if it was a 10 point restoration using a body in white donor like the Camaros and Mustangs and MGB's? Interesting these are accepted and legal.
Posted by: mepstein Apr 4 2017, 05:51 AM
I got banned from the 914 Forum on Facebook for stating this, so I am prepared to be flamed.
This car is not an example of "VIN Swapping" Yes VIN swapping is illegal. In vintage cars, this is considered by builders to be a "re-bodied car"
the majority of cars that win at Pebble beach are re-bodied cars. in vintage restoration shops, if you OWN both cars, and you want the tags from the rusty shitty car moved to the restored chassis, it is considered ethical and legal. DMV does not care as long as there are not two cars with the same VIN, and neither was stolen. the rusty tub should now have the other VIN and be crushed.
Randy Ema, who builds Pebble beach winning Dusenbergs for Jay Leno, says often: bring me the VIN, registration and the pictures, and I will build you an original Dusenberg.
Had this car been properly documented as a rebodied car, and had the builder used the correct year tub as a donor, and been alert to the differences in early versus later cars, this probably wouldnt have been such an isssue.
I was just at a car show on Friday, where an original Maserati Mille Miglia was on display, valued at $1.4 million. the entire body and engine are non-original.
It fascinates me to see cars that are recreated by hand from a vin # and somehow that is ok but a guy can't take a rusted hulk not worthy of repair, purchase shell, re-body the car and have it somehow called less than legal.
It also interests me to see cars that have rusted well beyond the point of safe repairs using large sections from other cars and that is somehow accepted as an original car. Where is the line when repairing a rusted hulk using a donor car as a platform for repairing a more valuable car? Not saying I agree or disagree. Just always wondered.
In the collision business clipping was always considered not legal and not safe. ( half of one car and half of another) I never did that but know of a shop that did it all the time.
Also in the collision business the vin. number is often supplied on the bill of sale from the salvage yard so there is no doubt the parts are not from a stolen car. Does that happen when a rusted hulk is restored using a donor car?
The car in question here clearly was not done to a standard that would be acceptable to the restoration crowd. But what if it was? What if it was a 10 point restoration using a body in white donor like the Camaros and Mustangs and MGB's? Interesting these are accepted and legal.
Money and a name change. It's not vin swapping, it's a rebody
My wife didn't have a boob job, she had body augmention.
Posted by: Blue6 Apr 4 2017, 09:17 AM
If only Boyd Coddington was still alive. He could shed some light on how the government feels about VIN Switched vehicles. Maybe someone knows one of his customers who got shafted.
Posted by: deemsriddle Apr 4 2017, 09:19 AM
I got banned from the 914 Forum on Facebook for stating this, so I am prepared to be flamed.
This car is not an example of "VIN Swapping" Yes VIN swapping is illegal. In vintage cars, this is considered by builders to be a "re-bodied car"
the majority of cars that win at Pebble beach are re-bodied cars. in vintage restoration shops, if you OWN both cars, and you want the tags from the rusty shitty car moved to the restored chassis, it is considered ethical and legal. DMV does not care as long as there are not two cars with the same VIN, and neither was stolen. the rusty tub should now have the other VIN and be crushed.
Randy Ema, who builds Pebble beach winning Dusenbergs for Jay Leno, says often: bring me the VIN, registration and the pictures, and I will build you an original Dusenberg.
Had this car been properly documented as a rebodied car, and had the builder used the correct year tub as a donor, and been alert to the differences in early versus later cars, this probably wouldnt have been such an isssue.
I was just at a car show on Friday, where an original Maserati Mille Miglia was on display, valued at $1.4 million. the entire body and engine are non-original.
It fascinates me to see cars that are recreated by hand from a vin # and somehow that is ok but a guy can't take a rusted hulk not worthy of repair, purchase shell, re-body the car and have it somehow called less than legal.
It also interests me to see cars that have rusted well beyond the point of safe repairs using large sections from other cars and that is somehow accepted as an original car. Where is the line when repairing a rusted hulk using a donor car as a platform for repairing a more valuable car? Not saying I agree or disagree. Just always wondered.
In the collision business clipping was always considered not legal and not safe. ( half of one car and half of another) I never did that but know of a shop that did it all the time.
Also in the collision business the vin. number is often supplied on the bill of sale from the salvage yard so there is no doubt the parts are not from a stolen car. Does that happen when a rusted hulk is restored using a donor car?
The car in question here clearly was not done to a standard that would be acceptable to the restoration crowd. But what if it was? What if it was a 10 point restoration using a body in white donor like the Camaros and Mustangs and MGB's? Interesting these are accepted and legal.
Money and a name change. It's not vin swapping, it's a rebody
My wife didn't have a boob job, she had body augmention.
At one time, Porsche had several 914 bare bodies in white. If you could prove the car was totaled and the car would be destroyed, they would sell you one and even stamp your VIN number in the proper places. As I recollect the cost was $10,000.00
Many of the Packards, Pierce Arrows , Duesenbergs etc were too Politically Incorrect to drive as the Depression left more and more people starving and out of work. They were very large and heavy duty. Many of them were bought by farmers, their custom coachwork removed and scrapped. They were then used as farm trucks. So the magnificent winner at Pebble Beach Concours might be a figment of someone fertile imagination. The Cowl, engine, radiator and front running boards, may look like the originals or even be restored originals, but the passenger compartments are based loosely on sketchy information available.
Ir
Posted by: SirAndy Apr 4 2017, 12:21 PM
To me this has never been a gray area:
- If you swap everything that is still usable to a different chassis, it's a swap. If you also swap the VIN over, it's a VIN swap.
- If you cut out all the cancer on a rusted hulk and replace it with good panels, you restored the rusted car.
Anything else is just semantics trying to justify a VIN swap.
Even if the car in question had been done "correctly" using a '70 /4 chassis, it would still be a /4 with a bunch of /6 parts and a swapped VIN.
And the real problem here is when someone then comes around and conveniently "forgets" to tell people about the swap and demands original /6 money for the car.
Posted by: Garold Shaffer Apr 4 2017, 02:05 PM
To me this has never been a gray area:
- If you swap everything that is still usable to a different chassis, it's a swap. If you also swap the VIN over, it's a VIN swap.
- If you cut out all the cancer on a rusted hulk and replace it with good panels, you restored the rusted car.
Anything else is just semantics trying to justify a VIN swap.
Even if the car in question had been done "correctly" using a '70 /4 chassis, it would still be a /4 with a bunch of /6 parts and a swapped VIN.
And the real problem here is when someone then comes around and conveniently "forgets" to tell people about the swap and demands original /6 money for the car.
Bingo!!
Posted by: boxsterfan Apr 4 2017, 02:51 PM
To me this has never been a gray area:
- If you swap everything that is still usable to a different chassis, it's a swap. If you also swap the VIN over, it's a VIN swap.
- If you cut out all the cancer on a rusted hulk and replace it with good panels, you restored the rusted car.
Anything else is just semantics trying to justify a VIN swap.
Even if the car in question had been done "correctly" using a '70 /4 chassis, it would still be a /4 with a bunch of /6 parts and a swapped VIN.
And the real problem here is when someone then comes around and conveniently "forgets" to tell people about the swap and demands original /6 money for the car.
Amazing how that little detail didn't make it in. Posted by: RobW Apr 5 2017, 06:55 AM
I had a 10th or so cut out and welded into Dads car. I could have dropped a volleyball through the HH. Glad to have it on board. I won't sell it but if my family ever does, the buyer should know it was repaired, and the pass door was repaired 80s (back in) and the drivers fender fixed - Dad backed his boat into it. Full disclosure. Of course today it's all fixed and looks great, it is what it is.
Posted by: mepstein Apr 5 2017, 08:56 AM
The guys buying up the early 912's to rebody the early S 911's are more careful about the details.
Posted by: Chris914n6 Apr 5 2017, 09:49 AM
If it's 10% tub -6 and 90% tub -74 then the VIN needs to say -74.
A vintage restore may be only 10% original but the other 90% is NEW replacement parts.
Buying a 912 to rebody a 911S is a VIN $wap.
Posted by: mepstein Apr 5 2017, 11:13 AM
Buying a 912 to rebody a 911S is a VIN $wap.
I know. We don't swap vin's at our shop. We mostly build hot rods and backdates. But with the prices of early 911's, it was bound to happen.
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