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Posted by: Clubsport32 Nov 7 2021, 01:13 AM

Hi All

Have seen this on an unrestored car…does anybody have anymore details…? I assume the 022 refers to the 1.7L but what about the other number?

Any insight would be appreciated…thanks

Andy


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Posted by: davep Nov 7 2021, 06:22 AM

I think most engines had the markings. With all the variations of the type IV engines it was important to positively identify with quick and simple marks like these.
It helps to know the VIN of the car and or the serial # of the engine when posting these photos.
There are other threads, and Geoff Bowlsby has a good set of photos here:
https://bowlsby.net/914/Classic/PLM.htm

Posted by: StarBear Nov 10 2021, 08:02 PM

Those number are quite different than any I’ve seen. There was a thread on tin numbers 2-3 months ago.

Posted by: wonkipop Nov 11 2021, 01:44 AM

sure look different to mine too.
mine probably look like your 1.8 starbear.

those there numbers in that photo look quite unique. maybe a real early car?

Posted by: StarBear Nov 12 2021, 10:29 AM

This is what every one I've ever seen looks like (mine), though numbers vary. I think a prior thread indicated they were lot numbers to match tins with the types of engines produced.

Posted by: wonkipop Nov 12 2021, 04:15 PM

mine looks like that- sort of. number is 604 instead of 605.

the guy with the brush and stencil must have been sober when he did yours.
mine is smeared - stencil slipped?
they drank a lot of beers at lunchtime in hanover in the 70s?

Posted by: StarBear Nov 12 2021, 06:04 PM

There was a thread a few months ago. Might make sense of your 604 and my 605 since yours was produced a few weeks before mine so a different lower tin set number. For production allocation and coordination maybe.

Posted by: davep Nov 12 2021, 09:49 PM

I do not believe these were stenciled; it looks more like a stamp to me. Look at the 0 in post 6 above. the center of the character is pretty much void of paint and the character is mostly seen in outline. If you press a stamp hard, you squeeze the paint to the edges and you get an outlined character.

Posted by: wonkipop Nov 13 2021, 01:34 AM

i think you are right. they do look like stamps don't they.

----

i found a thread dating 2006 on this site.
maybe that @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=10753 mentioned.
interesting read.

lots of speculation as to purpose.
suggestion about them being inventory stock numbers for engine tin batches.

i looked closely at these photos i had on file from wikipedia.
originally from Bundersarchiv.
VW engine plant at hanover.
looks like engines for 411/412.
photos are low res but you can see just enough.
the stamps appear to go on in the later stages of engine assembly but are not present on tin early in engine build?

doesn't look like its an engine builder team stamp.
seems to be a moving assembly line of overhead slung engine stands moving along.

Posted by: StarBear Nov 13 2021, 06:55 AM

Wow! How do you find this stuff? Great job; keep it up!

Posted by: wonkipop Nov 13 2021, 03:24 PM

its part of my real job - historical research.

we got stuck down here in the world's longest lockdowns.
i found a lot of this stuff a year ago "in prison" and filed it away.
i pulled these photos i had and looked at them closely.

the last photo looks to me like production line inspectors going over the engines?
engines look finished.
the guy with the cotton coat on has the classic look of a QA guy.
and at the moment or just before the stamps look like they appear.

the thread i found had some anecdotes from german members here talking about recollections by former VW employees - good stories but didn't gell with these photos or the idea of stamping the engines late in the production build process. if the photos are to be trusted the stamps are not there on tin when delivered from suppliers or sub contractor i d stamps.

i know these stamps were not on type 1/type 3 engines.
i had a german built squareback 40 years ago with the original tin on the engine.
no numbers on that. saw plenty of beetles back then, aus and german built.
no numbers.

interesting stuff.


quirky little detail - in last photo - the timing plugs are not installed.
probably the guy who did the final tune on the engines once installed at the very end of the production line had a pocket full of those and screwed them in at the end of the tune before the car was run on the rolling road.

Posted by: JeffBowlsby Nov 13 2021, 03:39 PM

I have a good colleciotn of these on my webpage. I don know the full story, but they seem t be related to invidual year engine identifications.

The 73-74 1.7 and 2.0 engines also have this stamp I.O. which I am told meant 'in order'. Unverified info.

https://bowlsby.net/914/Classic/PLM.htm




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Posted by: JeffBowlsby Nov 13 2021, 03:49 PM

According to my list:

604 is a 1974 1.8L, but I don't know which engine code it is?
605 is a 1974 1.8L EC-B engine code, CA-model
606 over P is a 1974 1.8L EC-A engine code, USA-model

Att 1.8L are EC-code engines but there were sub categories. Look for the label on the drivers side interior engine bay side panel, it will tell you. EC-A, EC-B etc.


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Posted by: wonkipop Nov 13 2021, 03:59 PM

i've seen a snatch of footage where you can see a 2.0 L 4 being assembled by one of the engine builders at the porsche factory in stuttgart. but that likely was an early proto engine when porsche were working on the design of the 2.0?

i can't see that bit of tin on my 1.8 without a mirror.
but i think my 1.8 only has the one marking on the LHS side near the alternator port.
there might have been a stamp on the rhs but its not visible anymore if it was.

its interesting that the whole package is there, exhaust system and all.
they would not have been able to do that with the 914 engines due to the exhaust system. probably didn't put that on until it got to karmann and was mated with the gearbox.

Posted by: wonkipop Nov 13 2021, 04:03 PM

ok, my car is a jan build 74 1,8 and it was delivered to maryland.

i've read some stuff on emissions laws in the USA from back in that period that suggests it was not as simple as california and 49 states. i think i came across some stuff that said maryland adopted california smog laws alongside california due to it being basically washington DC. Also i read some stuff about Chicago as a city adopting California standards earlier than elsewhere and having the smog tests enforced equal to LA.

that bit of 604, 605 info is real interesting. i don't have a 606 stamp but its definitely a Maryland delivery.

Posted by: wonkipop Nov 13 2021, 04:06 PM

ok mr. b

mine is an EC-B on that sticker. jan 74 build.

i am pretty sure the ink stamp is 604. you can see photo above.
the last number is very smeared.


hadn't read that sticker closely before.
says conforms to EPA regs for 74 model year.
guess that answers a question i had once.
how did smog laws apply, model year or calendar year.
looks like sticker indicates smog laws effect in USA model year for all cars?


EDIT
looks like starbear got himself a california car?
i got a 49 state car.
but there is also another form of the 74 california car?
so i take back what i say about EPA laws and model years.
starbears got a story about his being karmann plated late in 73 and then vin numbered much later in mar 74 or something like that.
sounds like his could have been a valid order california car that had to get diverted to 49 states due to something going on with california in 74?

i'd always read that the 74 1.8s were a single USA wide conforming model.
i came across that somewhere. basically met california smog laws and they sold them everywhere in continental USA.

Posted by: StarBear Nov 13 2021, 05:48 PM

Yep; just checked sticker: EC-B. States “California standards applicable to all 1974 cars”.
Always thought mine might have been a CA car. Delivered to Portsmouth VA and dropped off at a dealer in Richmond. It was way in the back and not prepped. The sales folks didn’t know it was there. Couldn’t afford the two 2.0s on the lot and the only 914 was ugly green with Steelers. Ugh. Saw this one way in the back. Might (?) have been dropped off for transshipment to CA, but who knows. I snagged it and the dealer got a sale. ‘Nuff said!

Posted by: StarBear Nov 13 2021, 05:53 PM

Not sure. JEff’s first post indicates 605 EC-B is a CA car but when included in Wonkipop’s reply it indicates 49 States.

Posted by: wonkipop Nov 13 2021, 06:30 PM

sounds like my sticker is the same as yours mate.
california and all states.

yep -



i really feel its a batching thing. but thats a wild guess.
my car was karmann numbered late jan and vin numbered 01/74.
its a car that went straight through the system fast.
the engine stamp is a 4 when yours is a 5.
yours is vin march 74 but an early karmann number.
it probably did not finish hard core final assembly until mar 74.

i think the engines were built in batches that were run through the hanover plant.
they would have dedicated days or weeks of the year they ran a batch of 914 engines through. the different batches would have been kitted with the fuel injection components and other things specific to certain cars being assembled off site at other factories.

Posted by: wonkipop Nov 13 2021, 07:23 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=104

slightly off topic.
something is weird about the engine production line photos.

tin wear is 914 tin?
don't think i am imagining this.
buses and 411s/412s had very different tin around the perimeters where it mated with body and around the fan.

some images below.

i could be wrong but i think all the buses and 411s had the coil off the mag fan shroud (1.8s did but not other 914s?).
engines in factory photos have coils on the tin mounting position.

but - they are all fitted with standard VW rear engine exhaust systems and big blocky VW standard heat exchangers.

?????????????

PS - see 411 brochure. I O painted on tin in front of fan shroud.

Posted by: wonkipop Nov 13 2021, 07:35 PM

mr. b, whats the little silver sticker under the EPA one?
in the photo of mine above you can see a trace of where it was in mine but its not there anymore.

Posted by: JeffBowlsby Nov 13 2021, 08:38 PM

Tellin' yah all I know, which isn't sayin' much.

1974 EC-A and EC-B labels attached.

The one 1975 label attached looks odd to me. I have had the hardest time finding 1975 labels for the 1.8L and 2.0L and this one depicted just looks odd to me, not like the other 914 labels. The source I got it from said it was off his 914 but I wonder if it may be a bus engine or something else (Thing?) Note its not on the 914 sidewall, its on the engine fan housing that a clue to me its not right.

Whats the difference betwen the EC-A and EC-B? Seems to be emissions related.

Review the two charts here and their sources. 1975 1.8L had lots more emissions equip than the 1974 cars. https://bowlsby.net/914/Classic/Emissions.htm

Also a page from the 1975 Service and Training manual is depicted, I think its my only source indicating the EC-A and EC-B. The 914 Service and Trianing manuals for each year are on my website for anyones perusal.

And I;ve added the 1974 CA-model windshield sticker re: emmissions. I dont have one ofthese for the 1975 model.

If anyone has the clear 1975 1.8L or 2.0L windshield emmissions label or the 1975 engine bay sidewall labels please post a good photo here on this thread and Ill add it it the website collection.


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Posted by: JeffBowlsby Nov 13 2021, 08:46 PM

All 914 years, all models as far as I know.





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Posted by: wonkipop Nov 13 2021, 09:06 PM

mr. b

this is gold.
that sticker.
thats probably what i had as sticker and i have a plastic can in the engine bay.
there is a trace of it in the same spot (can still feel where its tacky).
is it in all the cars all years?

you remember we were pondering the plumbing on the charcoal can set up for the engine bay cars.

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=347951

StarBear and I (engine bay cans) are very sure we have original plumbing in above thread.
which we suggested is plumbed up differently to the layouts for the frunk can cars.
and there is official literature which supports the plumbing for frunk cars and for engine bay cars in their different forms.

an EC-A is a frunk can car with the porsche evap system (plumbing diagrams you have)? frunk can cars come first for early part of 74 model year in 73.
A = first version?

an EC-B is an engine bay can with VW evap system (plumbing diagrams we have)? engine bay cars came after in second half of 74 model year. B = second version?

they did move the can one more time closer to the battery but all the photos i have seen show that its plumbed like the earlier engine bay can in the VW manner. so it would still be an EC-B?

just a thought.

Posted by: wonkipop Nov 13 2021, 09:16 PM

mr b

was there any difference between a cali 2.0 engine and 49 states?

Posted by: JeffBowlsby Nov 13 2021, 09:45 PM

A conditional yes. Depends on how ‘engine’ is defined. Includes FI? exhaust? Emissions equip or tuning? Which model year?

Posted by: wonkipop Nov 13 2021, 10:23 PM

fascinating.

there is nothing in the factory manual i have ever come across that would point to there being a cali 1.8 in 74. you know - no different settings, CO mix etc in the tune up.
no indications or side notes for a cali specific thing.

pretty interesting.

i think there is after that in 75 isn't there? only cali got cats?

did earlier cars/later cars have the same sort of stickers that said both cali and US.
or did cali cars have a cali only sticker to identify them?

Posted by: JeffBowlsby Nov 13 2021, 11:04 PM

Don’t think that’s what the ECA/ECB means.

The S&T manual page posted above is for 1975 models, it lists both ECA/ECB, yet for 1975 all the charcoal cans were in the engine bay.

Posted by: wonkipop Nov 14 2021, 12:27 AM

yep that cans that thought.

the mysteries.

maybe its just something they did to make the prehistoric version of cancel cultural warriors down there in sunny so cal think they were still getting gear that was superior to the rest of the great "unwashed" of the country? (no politics intended - i'm somewhat unwashed).

Posted by: wonkipop Nov 14 2021, 12:33 AM

ps
@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=104 .

i'm still looking at that factory engine prod line photo.
and thats 914 2.0 engines those boys are making.
you can tell from the throttle body.

don't think any VW engines got that throttle body?
not even 2.0 L bus motors, pretty sure they had the sideways throttle bodies.

i know they are not photos of guys making 912E motors.
they had things on the fan castings to hold smog pumps.

what are they doing with an arse dragger exhaust system hooked up?

Posted by: wonkipop Nov 14 2021, 12:36 AM

74 of course.
inclusive of FI and exhaust.

Posted by: wonkipop Nov 14 2021, 12:51 AM

ok

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=104 .

The tech page is from a training manual from 1975.
correct?

that names a A and B version of the EC engine.

and in 1975 there was a difference in the cars for cali and the other 49 states?
cali cars had cats. (min?). egr. etc.
was this equipment on 49 state cars?
i remember reading that cats were phased in stateside due to supply chain production questions. so cali got them first in 75 and rest of america next in 76.

so my proposition is A and B in 75 are because there is two different versions running concurrently. one for cali and one for 49 states.

go back to 74.
i can find no evidence anywhere in anything technical that there is anything other than a USA wide approved 1.8. California and 49 states.

but there is an A and B version.
the stickers you have prove that.
does not mean they are concurrent?
could mean they are chronological?
an engine bay can car is going to have the port on the rhs of blower fan opened up for the hose to the can.
a frunk car has the port on the lhs for the can? i think.

whats the date on the EC-A sticker car? do you have it.

just another thought.

i mean in my game A and B versions can mean a lot of different things.
there is an A and B version side by side.
and there is an A and B version one after the other.

its blowing like a gale down here so i got nothing better to do.
apologies.
the roof is probably going to come off my building soon.

i believe what you are saying is right.
the A and B thing is due to emissions changes or differences.
my thought is that for 74 its chronological.
they shift the can.
its big enough to warrant an emissions approval for variant a and b.
but both versions meet california and all states - as cans are in universally and have been for some time.
in 75 its concurrent?
there is a california specific variant and a 49 states variant? don't know. you would.
what are the stickers like in 75?
do they state 49 state specific only (if don't have cats and not sure about that anyway) unlike the 74 stickers which do say meets california and all states together.

Posted by: JeffBowlsby Nov 14 2021, 08:40 AM

Wonk,

That page from the 75 S&T manual also includes the GC code 2.0L which indicates an -a and -b version for USA and CA market cars. We can be 100% certain thats what those desgnations also mean for 1974.

My head is spinning from all the questions. Answers to several/most of your questions are here, please review.

https://bowlsby.net/914/Classic/Emissions.htm

Thinking about the 1974 labels, like you I am not aware of any difference between the USA and CA cars. I am leaning towards the idea that the 1974 ECA/ECB labels including the windshield label were to satisfy USA and CA emissions labelling requirements, even though physically and mechanically there was no difference with the cars. I have CA-only windlsheidl labels for 1971 through 1976 cars on my site, which suggests that this label probably exists for the 1970 cars too, but I just have not seen it yet.

Posted by: JeffBowlsby Nov 14 2021, 09:22 AM

I have the same questions, in sum, I dont know. Its not 912E, exhaust looks more 411/412/bus wit its passenger side exhaust tip. Its D-Jet FI (ECU connectors visible on several engines). The stampings format on the left and right side of the tin appear to be consistent with 1973-74 2.0L GA code engines (see below) but the stampings are are illegible. The engine tin profile in plan appears to be 914 but could it be something else? The air cleaner bracket appears to be 914 2.0L.


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Posted by: StarBear Nov 14 2021, 11:12 AM

Probably batches. Mine sat around for weeks waiting for engine tins!
Through in CA/49-state confusion and who knows unless someone finds some assembly line notebook. After all, I don't think I even knew that number was there until a year or two ago!

Posted by: wonkipop Nov 14 2021, 01:49 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=104

mr. b

i found this in factory manual.



you are correct re 1975. it shows up.
small a and b mean USA (49) and California variants of EC engines.

also as commonly accepted for 73
EA = USA (49) and EB = California.

but there is no EC-A or EC-B shown here.
i think EC-A and EC-B means something else besides California or 49.

i went to your site and had a look at your engine sticker section.
you need more stickers from people.
time for an information drive.

i picked up a couple of things from what you had though that were interesting.

1973
EA and EB stickers are identical in terms of stating emission compliance.
says the same as starbear and my 74 stickers.
notes that both EPA and California compliant.
thinking about it both engines would be compliant in terms of california emissions.
only thing about an EB is it is dual fuel and can take 91 RON.
so unleaded requirement in california does not fall under emissions laws.
its another separate requirement that california brings in for new cars?
and it does not show up on stickers distinguishing between california or 49 states.

1975.
engine stickers don't distinguish engines as EC-A or EC-B
the stickers instead refer to ENGINE FAMILY and have two different numbers.
15 and 16 I think.
stickers distinguish between being california and EPA and EPA only.
believe 1975 is in the first year where you do get an emission sticker that says
one is for california (and by default any other state) and another that says EPA only (49 states) on the stickers?

it would be nice to know what car the 74 EC-A sticker is from.
date of manufacture/vin. point of sale.
that would start to unravel the 1974 EC-A and EC-B?
it definitely means something.

Posted by: wonkipop Nov 14 2021, 02:08 PM

i wonder if they ran the engines up on an engine dyno at the factory before they sent them to karmann?

they might have only had an engine dyno set up for vw rear engine configuration and needed an exhaust system on it. 914 exhaust would be cumbersome to support, might have fouled with coupling of dyno to flywheel.

seems a bit wasteful in terms of time.
they could have re-used it i suppose after they were finished.

re profile of engine bay tin.
as far as i know that engine only went in buses, type 4 cars, 912Es and 914s.
profile of the engine bay mating shape is completely different in buses, cars and 912s. i think it can only be a 914 tin.

Posted by: StarBear Nov 14 2021, 04:02 PM

Here's my engine bay sticker. Clean and clear. EC-B. Body completed 11/73 per driver door jamb; unit completed 3/74 per COA.

Posted by: JeffBowlsby Nov 14 2021, 04:26 PM

1973 1.7L EB code has lower compression, to meet CA emissoins. Its on your posted chart.

Posted by: wonkipop Nov 15 2021, 02:51 AM

yep.
an EB is a 73 cali 1.7 dual fuel running D jet.

but thats not really an answer as to what an EC-A or an EC-B is in 1974.

......starbear and my car are east coast cars from delivery, but are EC-B.
so its not fitting the logic your using?

i'd like to accept your idea, but its a proposition/suggestion.
so far there is no solid factory evidence that EC-A and EC-B means a cali or a 49 state.
if it did i think it would be in that chart from the factory manual i posted and it would appear in so much other literature. but it doesn't. ever.

there is something to A and B, but its buried somewhere else in documents?
i'm curious now, mainly because its about my car - so i'd like to know.

Posted by: wonkipop Nov 15 2021, 06:38 AM

ok.
when you need primary research material,
few places better than your great website jeff.

in the exceptional cars page.

1974 1.8







vin 01 74.
californian car (see windscreen cal emission clear sticker).
is an EC-A

wonki's car.
vin 01 74
maryland delivery.
is an EC-B

should be the other way around if B = california and A = 49 states.

A and B must mean something else i think?

my car (late jan) is 1055 cars after this one.

Posted by: JeffBowlsby Nov 15 2021, 07:27 AM

914 mysteries continue...

Posted by: StarBear Nov 15 2021, 07:58 AM

Good info. @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=24231 looks like your vin number is well after mine, confirming 11/73 as my build date and more confirmation of not-very-useful COA sheet that has manuf date 3/74 and I bought in 5/74.

Posted by: wonkipop Nov 15 2021, 06:23 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=10753 .

mine is 13361 for last 5 digits.

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=104 & Starbear.


ok. i found something in the parts book.
mr. b is right, in there there is listed for 74 a 1.8 and a 1.8 (california) for some distinct parts. he is right about cal but i can't find anything that connects them to EC-A or EC-B designation to absolutely say which is which.

(the reason this A and B triggered something mr. b is i was looking at distributors last week for Van B, a few of us 1.8ers were going over cold start hiccups - i saw something then cruising the fac manual and the parts list but it wasn't 1.8 cal or not cal.

first up.
replacement engines as listed in parts catalogue



2. throttle bodies for 74 1.8
the engine nos. for 1974 EC engines run from EC 0 (zeros) to EC0 037 551.
552 is the first engine for 75 1.8s.
there is a throttle body for CA and a throttle body for USA.
i don't know what the difference is. can't tell from this info.




3. distributors for 74 1.8s.

factory workshop manual says there is a
022 905 205AA and a 022 905 205AB for 1.8 cars but doesn't say for what year.
parts catalogue says there is only a 022 905 205 AB distributor. no AA is there anywhere. parts cat says there is an AB and an S for 1.8 and that 74s (see engine number range) have an S distributor. assume S is what is called AA in factor workshop manual? so 74 gets a different distributor than 75 but not two different distributors in 74 only 1.






4. brain
all 74 1.8s have the same ECU.




so it looks like one difference between what is termed a 1.8 and 1.8 (cali) in 74 is the throttle body.

i'm assuming mine being a maryland car is a 74 1.8 (USA). and the sticker says its EC-B
its got the advance and retard two hose set up from TB to both sides of dist. vac can.

the mystery continues.

Posted by: JeffBowlsby Nov 15 2021, 06:54 PM

Wow...I think you are on to something. I dont knwo 1.8L throttle bodies. Wonder if the 1.8 owners brain trust can survey their car for the TB ports and dizzy PN.

Great job...

Posted by: wonkipop Nov 15 2021, 08:17 PM

there is another coincidence @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=10753 .
My car was purchased by Jeremy and Delores of Dixon Hill Maryland in May 75 i believe.
thats the date on the delivery inspection in the glovebox manual. just in time for summer.

same as you mate!

Posted by: StarBear Nov 15 2021, 09:13 PM

Will check mine. Pretty sure the dizzy (original) is AA. Have been keeping my eye out for a backup but have never seen one.

Posted by: wonkipop Nov 15 2021, 11:19 PM

all right youz two
@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=104 & @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=10753 .

part # on throttle body of mine.
022 133 067A
with a H above it.

wouldn't you know it - does not accord with parts catalogue #022 133 062 H.
except for maybe the H bit, sort of.



this made me think someone's whacked in a replacement throttle body before i got it.
did a search on web, threw up a lot of stuff that has already gone down on this website 10 years ago. you have already brushed up against this one before jeff.
everyone got a headache out of it back then and no one had their head around it except dave darling and capn krusty.

point 1.
turns out the part# on my TB is right. same as other 74 1.8s so something short circuits in the parts catalogue where VW does a part number resequence or whatever for the 1.8s and its not in there right.
the parts catalogue is right for D jet 1.7 TBs PN. they do have the 022 133 062 number - i inspected a random ebay photo .

point 2.
in that thread from 10 years back someone posted a 75 1.8 with throttle body part #
022 133 067C. it was a cali i believe with EGR etc.
i conclude that the 1.8s have throttle body part #s that are 022 133 067 followed by a Letter for region/chronological variant identification.

there are at least 2 versions an A in 74 and a C in 75.

i can't read my distributor PN at the moment.
i need a magnifying glass hooked up to a robot to crawl down there and read it.
tried taking a photo. just blurs.

what this survey would need from owners of 1.8s is

as suggested above the PN of dizzy and TB.
but also the pic of the engine bay sticker (EC-A or EC-B).

------

its possible that the 1.8 throttle body PN cast in is an audi part #?
VW part # in the catalogue might correspond or equate via internal code.
its got audi symbol cast in as well as VW.

Posted by: StarBear Nov 16 2021, 09:04 AM

OK; Here are my "unmolested" 1.8L data:
1. 74 MY; Build date 11/73 door jamb sticker
2. EC-B Engine sticker
3. Dizzy: Bosch 231-181-009; VW 022 905 205AA (my notes show VW superceded by 205S). Two-port vacuum can.
4. Throttle body has no visible part number, particularly in same location as @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=24231 ; not under the collar by the ribbed air intake tube. It "may" be on the underside between the vacuum advance/retard hoses, but just replaced that gasket a few months ago (after 47 years) and really don't want to open it back up again. Maybe (?) that may be a significant determination?
@Big Len: What do you have on yours? @BigLen @Big_Len "@Big Len"
5. ECU: VW 002 906 201G ;Bosch 0 280 000 103
Photos:

Posted by: wonkipop Nov 16 2021, 02:55 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=10753 . distributor superseded PN is handy info. explains throttle body PN difference in parts catalogue. PET i have is dated 2010. throttle body in PET is a superseded PN from somewhere else in the VW range for the original TB?

photo of your TB shows it is exactly same as mine (at least on visible half).
i'm guessing you never changed your TB - you are in the fortunate position of absolutely knowing. mine could be a replacement during first owners stint.

i went and had a look at the 411/412 catalogue at VW classic.
you know about that one. on the german VW website.
hidden on the website are old catalogues.
but the PN catalogues are for euro 412s. exclude the USA catalogues.
so only earlier D Jet 1.7 and twin carb 1.8 parts, no L jet parts.
guess only USA 412s ran L jet?
those catalogues do have the original part #s for things at the time of production.

thinking thats why the AAV is listed in the PET i have as a 944 PN.
944 AAV is now NLA. but if i could find a 944 PET of recent date i'd probably be able to get to a replacement AAV and it would be good for a 914 as well?

Posted by: StarBear Nov 16 2021, 03:48 PM

Yep; my TB is original. Curiosity is telling me to yank it to look underneath for the PN but my head and back are saying no. Voices….

Posted by: wonkipop Nov 16 2021, 04:36 PM

don't pull it out. why disturb it.

between us we have the PN for the TB and the dist i reckon for an EC-B.


EDIT

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=10753 .
got the camera in enough to read the last part of the dizzy PN
looks like its a 231 181 009 Bosch PN same as yours.
rest of VW PN goes around where i can't see to read.
safe to say its a AA same as yours.






found this thread about the man who rebuilds throttle bodies.

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=271012

its got images of 1.8 throttle bodies with same PN as mine.
022 133 067A (H)
but the retard port to dizzy hose looks blanked off unlike mine which is opened up for dizzy hose.
mysteries continue?

one of the throttle bodies pictured belongs to @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=14058 .
he is in australia.
if he reads this he might be able to cast some light.

Posted by: wonkipop Nov 17 2021, 02:14 AM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=10753 & @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=104

figured out the part # discrepancy in my throttle body.
there is a consistent typo in the PET catalogue.
PET lists all throttle body numbers final three digits as 062.
it should be 067.

i did a search through google images and scanned some ebay adds.

the 1.7s all end in 067.

the 2.0s even end in 067.

PET lists even these as 062s (incorrectly?).

1.7




2.0

Posted by: StarBear Nov 17 2021, 07:21 AM

Awesome investigative work, @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=24231 !
Yep; PN on mine on the side of the TB stem like the photo above. 067A with the Audi logo and a little “1” to the right of the logo.
Soooo, the TBs on the 1.8s ARE a different part number. Next obvious question is “HOW are they different?” Or just “A” to designate PN for supply to Audi? The VW versions don’t have the A; sort of like a supersede designation?
The mystery evolves.

Posted by: wonkipop Nov 17 2021, 04:47 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=10753 - what you need to see, if you can easily, is if yours has an H cast/stamped on it anywhere.
it might be somewhere else.

i think the way it works is that all the 1.7s are 022 133 067 with either a D or an E also on the throttle body. the D or E is stamped elsewhere and not immediately after the numerical PN? the D is on the earlier 1.7 cars and the E is on later 1.7s. i'm guessing A, B,C would be EFI VW engines with D jet earlier than 914s.

for a 2.0 the TB is 039 133 067 with either a D, B or C stamped somewhere else?
but not relevant to this discussion. but interesting i suppose since the parts catalogue implies its revised or different along the way.

for a 1.8 the TB is 022 133 067A with either an H, L, R or S stamped elsewhere.
the A immediately after the numerical numbers signifies it is the first significant variant of the original 1.7 throttle body? bigger bore on a 1.8 for a start?
the H L R or S signifies some other smaller variation in the throttle body?
so far i have only been able to come across images of TBs with the H stamped on them like mine.

your TB is likely an early batch of the 1.8 TBs and has the PN stamped on the spindle like 1.7 TBs. after earlier batch they change the casting, or maybe even the supplier of the casting?

Posted by: StarBear Nov 17 2021, 05:02 PM

Maybe that little “1” I saw was an “L”. Will recheck and post.

Posted by: wonkipop Nov 17 2021, 05:10 PM

something i got to check is i swear i came across an 062 throttle body on an images search earlier, but i might have confused it. i'll have to dig around and see if i screen grabbed it and filed it. sure is slightly weird this PN discrepancy with the PET. the germans don't usually make mistakes like that?

Posted by: wonkipop Nov 17 2021, 05:12 PM

there is a 1 stamped on mine as well. its next to the VW logo.
its under the PN.
it goes 1 (VW LOGO) (AUDI LOGO).

Posted by: StarBear Nov 17 2021, 08:14 PM

Here's mine. Definitely a "1" and varies from your description (VW, Audi, "1")
No letter that I can find, unless it's back under some surface not visible unless the unit is removed and inspected; clearly not next to the PN.

Yeah; consistency is pretty "loose".

Posted by: wonkipop Nov 17 2021, 09:42 PM

i had to reread up how VW parts numbers work again.
a mystery because it can never be fully explained unless you knew all the obscure parts groups and inconsistencies in numbers.......

but

first three letters in this case means engine group developed for.
would be the type 4 engine. (it can mean other things like model, but it will mean enigne in this case because its an engine part.)
022 = type 4 engine i think. (039 is the porsche designed 2.0 L variant)

second three letters mean the engine part.

133.
1 = engine.
33 = throttle body.

third three letters mean

location identifier.
067 = where it is on the engine (or could mean on the car itself).

letter at end means variation. A is usually the first. sometimes the first has no letter after it and then the first variation (ie second version) has the A. its inconsistent too.

at some point VW changed its catalogueing order and throttle bodies were given a different location identifier of 062 in all their updated catalogues.
as a result of that 067 became 062 in PET and there would be some internal accounting that meant any replacement throttle bodies were reassigned the number. either with a new label on the box maybe or if parts were actually made in new batches maybe even stamped with a new number or whatever they did to cope with that to make sure you got the right part.

so the H L R or S variants of the throttle body mentioned in the PET catalogue are new reassigned numbers and could appear differently on the original parts we have.


the PET catalogue is not much use except to say there are four variations.

you have to find examples of the original parts in the 4 variations to work out what they were actually stamped.



so far we know there was an A version.
that could mean A version of original 1.7 throttle body = 1.8 throttle body.
all the other numbers are the same from 1.7 to 1.8. nothing else to distinguish except 1.7 TBs have no letter after the number as far as i can find.

i'm thinking it means A = what identifies a 1.8 throttle body from a 1.7 throttle body.

and that H could still mean the first sub variant beyond it being a 1.8.
but & is still really what i think.
given confusing possibilities of VW PNs its possible the first batch of throttle bodies (like yours might be StarBear) they just have the PN ending in A and there is no H because at that point maybe there was no other version yet superseding it?
but after a second version has to appear - says its an L, they give the original version in its later batches a H as well. you just don't know with VW.

the only way to really do this is to collect images from people.
see what they have.
and try and get info from cars reasonably certain to be original.

Posted by: StarBear Nov 18 2021, 07:12 AM

I wonder if (?) the other letters denote the second-party supplier/vendor. Bosch did that with lots of their stuff (condensers, etc) though with additional numbers. Another wrench to our brains!

Posted by: wonkipop Nov 18 2021, 04:47 PM

could be. those 2.0L throttle bodies have LUS stamped on them - whatever that means ?

i found US vehicle emissions standards for the 70s.
there is a difference between Cali and Fed (49 states).
Cali is trying to get NOx down. (but accepts higher CO as a consequence).
its like an interim stage just before cats (cats will drop high CO by converting it to CO2. cal accepts higher CO to lower NOx (main ingredient of smog) for 74 on the way to implementing cats in 75.

74 is a funny year in terms of emissions standards? i've got a feeling that earlier in the 70s it was the target date for cats but lobbying by manufactures resulted in an EPA concession to delay it by a year and phase it across 2 years.


Attached image(s)

Posted by: wonkipop Nov 19 2021, 10:43 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=10753 . you are right about letters being manufacturer of part. some of the letters anyway.

LUS on 2.0 Litre TB = manufacturer. its a sub contracted supplier item.

1 + VW LOGO + AUDI LOGO = made by VW/AUDI in their own plant and by VW/AUDI GERMANY. a 2 would mean VW Mexico. a 3 would mean VW Brazil. (at least that was what the information i found said).

1.7 and 1.8 TBs were all made by VW themselves inside one of their factories.




The H that is stamped on the 1.8 TB stands for something other than supplier or manufacturer.

But for all the 2.0 L owners with their special porsche engine (which it is) its been made by a supplier that porsche brought into the chain.

Posted by: wonkipop Nov 19 2021, 10:49 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=104 .

there are plenty of threads you can find with a search on thesamba covering painted stamps on engine tin.

seems type 1 engines also got the stamps.
a lot of time hidden on back of fan tin so not always visible.
never saw them on aussie beetles, but they could have been there.
not sure if type 3 engines got them, did not find any evidence from samba members posting images of them.

seems all the stamps are for quick recognition of completed engine stock inventory.
ie what spec it is, what EFI set up its got, what it goes into.

apparently I O might mean IN ORDNUNG. ie in order. or as we understand it - an OK stamp.

Posted by: wonkipop Nov 19 2021, 11:15 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=10753 & @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=104 .

i have managed to find some stuff about the implementation of the clean air act in the USA that indicate the original plan to have the US car fleet fitted with cats by 1975 had to be delayed slightly.

There was a problem getting enough cats made and into the supply chain early.

i'll keep digging as i get bits of spare time.

The plan was drawn up by the US Government in 1970, EPA was founded etc.
California was granted the special dispensation that it still has to this day, originally to set their own standards, but in reality to simply introduce standards proposed by the EPA a year earlier. The EPA figured this was a practical way to do things, phasing in technology for 50 states over 2 years instead of 1.

Cat original timetable were proposed for all 50 states by 1975. Which meant California would have had cats in 1974. But it got shifted. So 74 is a kind of stand still year in some ways though california went ahead and lowered NOx emission levels. A by product of lowered NOx levels was an increase in C0 levels. Cats would have lowered the C0 and turned it into C02 and HC into C02 and H20. They took the C0 hit from no cats for one year in order to drop the NOx which was a major ingredient of smog.

Thats why the 73 California 1.7s have unleaded engines. They are getting ready to take the cats the next year in 74. The unleaded part of the timetable stayed on track.

In 74 all the engines in 50 states go unleaded capable for all cars.

A second reason for unleaded which i never realised is that the lower compression ratios of unleaded engines also lowered NOx emissions as they ran at lower combustion temps.

so i think something goes on with 74 1.8s where they get them ready to be a cat equiped 1.8 and a non cat 1.8 but it never happens in reality until 75. but the evidence gets left behind.

in the end its all in how the throttle body hoses get hooked up to the distributor.
the TBs have both ports (or have the capacity to have both ports) they are just used differently from cat cars to non cat cars in 75.

there is a bit of evidence on this website from threads 10 or more years ago about the different ways the TBs on 74 1.8s were hooked up to the vacuum advance/retard distributors - it seems in a variety of ways. i think that is what the different throttle bodies are about. whether or not a port was capped or non capped and whether it was hooked up or not hooked up.

the port operating off manifold vacuum and connected to the retard port on the distributor would achieve the low NOx at idle level (via retarded timing at idle) if the state required it (california?).

the other port operating off vacuum at part throttle and connected to the advance port on the distributor is a fairly standard form of vacuum advance for fuel efficiency and economy. likely to have remained hooked up on all cars for all 50 states?

i think early on with the 1.8s they might have been playing around with it as variables.
but by the time you get to something like my car or starbears they just hook them all up and make it basically a 50 state car (and from then on only offer a 50 state car?).

still does not quite explain the A or B sticker. but the interesting thing about the A or B sticker is both cars are 50 state compliant - and from what i can tell in the photos the A car (blue car on mr. b website) is the same as our B cars. I can see the distributor hookup, its the same, and i can see the engine bay charcoal can, its the same.

a further possibility for the A or B on the sticker is that it refers to a engine group test batch standard. the cars were certified by agreed to tests of vehicles taken off the production line at specified intervals conducted by the manufacturer and submitted to the EPA and or CARB. These were the full tests that measured HC, CO and NOx concentrations (as distinct from simpler annual exhaust checks required of owners).
Its possible that EC-A and EC-B might mean that vw/porsche did two separate such tests for the EC engine, both of which in the end conform to all 50 states, but have different paperwork. the sticker indicates which test a particular engine fitted in the car conforms to. The difference may be because there is minor variation/or even just a second test of the same variation?

I say this because apparently that is what the engine group code on the sticker really means. it means the manufacturers engine group, but a little more - the manufacturers engine group test for EPA and CARB certification purposes.

For there to be a california 1,8 and a non california 1.8 there has to be somewhere an emission sticker that says EPA approved only? its going to be something other than EC-A or EC-B (they both say california + EPA).

It could be for instance EC? a sticker photo drive amongst members with 1.8s might find what is there.

Posted by: wonkipop Nov 20 2021, 01:10 AM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=10753 .

further thought on what the H on TB means.

It means the H variant - but is also on the L variant.
H is listed as the 49 state variant - for MY 1974 - see parts catalogue listing.

see photo (attached) from thread about rebuilding 1.8 throttle bodies.
photo shows TB with H stamped has blocked port (undrilled) which if opened would take a vacuum hose to the retard side of distributor in some cars - eg our cars (or all californian cars).
looks exactly the same as the TB on my car, same PN, man. identification and H, apart from that port being not opened up.





You won't find the L variant, at least not with L stamped on it?
all they do for the L variant is drill out the idle retard port on the H variant parent casting, insert a coupling tube and then package it in a box with L variant identified on labelling?

To put it simply, wonki and starbear have L variant TBs for 74 (which parts manual says is californian 1.8 part) - its an H with the port drilled out?
i don't think you would go and make a separate casting just to have an L stamped on it.
you just use the parent part and do a further operation on it.




Attached image(s)

Posted by: wonkipop Nov 20 2021, 03:10 PM

difference between a 74 1.8 throttle body and a 75 1.8.

for 75 the area around the idle screw is enlarged and forms a bigger mass of metal including around the base of throttle valve spindle.

74 (from my car, 067A - 2 vac ports)



75 (067C - image does not make clear if 1 or 2 vac ports).




found so far.

1974
067A (H) with one vac port.
067A (H) with two vac port. probably the L variant in PET?

1975
067C (no further information re ports or variant)

changes around idle screw probable reason for 2 new variants listed in PET for 75.
2 variants could be a repeat of 74. i port/2port.
or could be different. need more info for 75s.

Posted by: wonkipop Nov 20 2021, 04:58 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=104

breakthrough?

1. example from your exceptional cars on website.
74 1.8. build early Jan 74. emission sticker is EC-A California + 49 States.




engine tune sticker. note hoses are shown on these stickers - and indicate whether hose is on or off for setting initial idle. sticker indicates hoses off as per 1.8 tune. only 1 hose is shown.





2. wonki car.
74 1.8 build end of jan 74. emission sticker is EC-B california + 49 States.




engine tune sticker. sticker indicates hoses off as per 1.8 tune instructions. 2 hoses are shown. (the sticker is heat/age damaged but you can still see the two hoses).




i never looked at these things closely before for different VWs. eg examples of tune up stickers for late model buses. these have idle set with hoses on. tune up sticker shows that. dumb cartoons but deadly accurate.








conclusion.

EC-A (cali + 49 states) has 1 vac hose connected from dist to TB.
which one i am not sure yet, its hard to tell from photos of engine bay of blue 74 on your website.

EC-B (cali + 49 states) has two vacuum hoses connected from dist to TB.
wonki + StarBear cars.
advance dist (left) to advance TB (rear of car). retard dist (right) to retard TB (front of car)


(god is in the details - mies van der rohe )


now whats an EC-B that is only 49 states?
you have one of those stickers on your website.

-----------

EDIT - re marathon blue car on your website mr. b
i have looked hard at the images of the engine bay on your website.
interesting stencilled engine number too - 607 maybe, but first letter is degraded and illegible.
what i can see with a reasonable degree of certainty is that it runs a vacuum hose from the distributor advance side to the TB port facing rear of car (advance at cruise).
BUT thats not what the tune up sticker is saying. its saying one hose only. further disconnect retard hose on distributor at idle tune up setting so thats the only hose. (if there was a second fully connected hose VW practice with the stickers would be to show second hose and to show it connected) which means it should have a hose connected only to the retard side of TB. further its saying there is no advance line connected. (which given other accounts of distributor hoses would mean there was a hose on distributor but it was left lying open and tucked under the dist). so something is inconsistent between sticker and engine as photographed. i doubt anyone would change an emission sticker or a engine tune up sticker. (its possible - however they both look aged/original but in good condition). more likely would be throttle body/vac connection changed/modified along the way.
need other examples to nail this one.
but it is an EC-A stickered car. and tune sticker indicates only vacuum retard activated, not vacuum advance. those two clues are saying that much about an EC-A car.

Posted by: wonkipop Nov 22 2021, 05:49 PM

a bit more information re EC engines in USA cars.

the 74 412 ran L jet alongside the 1.8 914.
i found an image of an original EC in a 412 Variant.
its a very different setup to the 914.

1. the 412s ran EGR in 74!
2. far as i can tell (not 100% on this) from image the EGR was connected to a TB port on forward facing side of throttle body (using orientation of the TB in a 914 - to rear of car in 412). the vacuum line from the EGR connected to the cast bump directly below the idle screw (see images above of 914 throttle body). the bump below was left undrilled and not used as it was in some 914s for idle retard. they drilled out the upper bump and fitted a coupling. the vacuum line to this port also tee-ed off near the TB and ran to a second port in the intake manifold plenum.
3. the distributor was not a dual vac chamber advance/retard but had only a single vacuum advance chamber. the vacuum advance hose connected to the TB port on the rearward side of throttle body ( using orientation of TB in 914). as per some 74 914 the port is being used at cruise to advance for fuel economy.
4. the tune up sticker had a dist diagram with only one hose drawn and it was shown connected for idle setup.

i could not see an emissions sticker in the image i found. this engine would have had a version of the 914 classifications? ie either plain EC or EC-letter identifier. all 74 412s were fitted with the EC engine. very hard to find further information on the 412.

it is interesting how different it is. that it is running EGR before the 914 does. and it has a different set up for the EGR. i am not entirely sure how it works on the 412 but i think it might be recirculating exhaust gas at idle but also it is able to do it at cruise. i believe the 75 914 would have recirculated EG at cruise.

a 412 only ran an auto box in the usa so set up was probably tailored to engine characteristics for the gearbox?

Posted by: wonkipop Nov 22 2021, 06:35 PM

i did some more trawling through older car ads still around on internet.
found this example of 74 1.8.

no emission sticker/engine stencilled number in images unfortunately.
but has following.

1. tune up sticker with two hoses to dist as per wonki/starbear/van b cars.
2. vin number date 02/74. its about 700 cars after wonki car.
3. it was sold new in mississippi (so not a california car).

a pity no emission sticker image was available to 100% confirm what EC-? it was and how it was listed as being compliant.

Posted by: wonkipop Nov 22 2021, 10:40 PM

SUMMARY OF POSITIONS OF VACUUM HOSES BY EXPERTS.

This helps summarise what can be known with some certainty about the variable vacuum hose layouts.

Version 1.
the late Cap'n Krusty.
credentials are impeccable.
he states both ports on dist connected to both ports on TB.
both ports on TB are opened up in casting.
he lives and works in california.
he works on a 1.8 L jet before it hits the showrooms.
see posts extracted from thread date (2010)
he is seeing cali cars from the start - they are as per wonki, starbear and van b.
EC-B (California and EPA emissions sticker).





Version 2.
Clay Perrine.
credentials impeccable.
he states only the retard vac port on dist is connected to retard vac port on TB.
advance port on TB is capped/closed.
retard port is opened up and connected to retard on dist.
vacuum advance line on dist is on but tucked under dist and left open.
see posts extracted from thread date (2019)




Dr. 914 backs this up.
he'd know.
adds that version 2 comes into effect jan 01 74.
versions 1 are being made after jan 01 74 so does not necessarily supersede.



this would fit with marathon blue car = EC-A.
EC-A is California and EPA emissions sticker.
Fits with marathon blue car idle tune sticker though not with hose layout now on car in photos.


Version 3.
others claim there is a TB with an open advance port and a closed retard port.
only the advance on the distributor is hooked up to TB.
in this type the retard hose is fitted to the distributor and is tucked underneath.
though it looked like zonedoubt's car is a 75 and has a 067C TB.
however there is an image of a 067A TB with the same configuration so they likely do exist in 74.




--------

There is known to be an EC-B emission sticker and it is only 49 states / EPA.
Not california certified.
At present i cannot link it to any of the three versions.
There would be a idle tune sticker to go with it showing only a hose to right of dist on tune up sticker if version 3 is EC-B 49 states?

---------

Below images of what each version of TB would look like.

I have seen images of version 1 and version 3.
I have not seen images of version 2. i'm guessing its advance port is blocked or capped somehow.





Attached image(s)

Posted by: StarBear Nov 23 2021, 07:38 AM

Hmmmm…. Thinking I should add the two unconnected vac lines to my tune up sticker repro. What do you think, @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=24231 ? I’ll check the master image from which I developed the repro.

Posted by: wonkipop Nov 23 2021, 03:42 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=10753 .
depends how fanatical you want to be adding the hoses.
your stickers look pretty darn good the way they are.

i have never noticed my old one had hoses.
i picked it up looking at the sticker section on mr. b's site.
saw the one with only one hose.
thought hang on. went into the garage and looked at what was left of mine.
saw two........easy to just mistake them for wrinkles or scratch marks - another 914 rabbit hole.

Posted by: wonkipop Nov 23 2021, 04:42 PM

last night i did a bit of reading up on 1973.
not 914 history, but broad history.

i was only 13 at the time - probably why i can't remember much besides kicking footballs, playing cricket and general running around aussie kids did!
(but there was an oil crisis in aus, i remember my father not being able to get enough fuel and we had to stop using the "big" holden and start going everywhere in my mothers beetle).

74 MY production starts beginning sept 1973.
(think thats right).


Yom Kippur War begins oct 6 1973.



does not come out of nowhere, had been building for 4 months prior.



oil producing arab nations immediately impose oil embargo at beginning of war.
targeting western nations supporting israel. sparking first oil crisis.



in response to oil shortage and rationing president nixon imposes nationwide 55 mph speed limit. november 23 1973.



within space of first 2-3 months of 1974 MY 914 production there is no petrol,
no speeding.

perfect storm - intersects with the imposition of stricter emissions limits in both california and to some extent the other 49 states.
(i believe california is a very important market for porsche at that time, roughly 50% of sales in the USA are to california, think i have that right - and 75% of all porsches are sold in the USA - remaining 25% rest of world and germany).

----------

porsche must have seen the events in the middle east coming?
(along with Ford, GM and Chrysler et al).
it had been building as a threat since may 1973.
egypt was rattling its sabre all year prior.

-------------

what i think. just a thesis as they say in research.

EC-A is the car that meets the california emissions target and passes the curbside idle test. it has retarded timing at idle to lower NOx emissions at standing idle.

EC-B is also the car that meets the california emissions target but in addition has extra vacuum advance of timing at cruise for fuel economy.

Both scenarios are completed at the time the cars are being prepared for production?
Represent two possibilities both of which pass CARB and EPA and are 50 state compliant.

The EC-A is probably the preferred variant? - but with fuel economy potentially a big issue about to become bigger, vw and porsche choose EC-B as the one to go first on sale?

The EC-B car (starbear/wonki/van B) has slight driveability issues when compared to the EC-A car? doesn't come down off throttle as well or drive as smoothly at part throttle as the EC-A version? some people do say this with 1.8s. and its complicated territory. the decel valve is also implicated in driveability issues at that exact time, 73-74.

Richard Nixon's imposition of 55 mph speed limit renders fuel economy a moot point.

most cars are going to be a lot more economical at 55, its the efficiency point where air resistance doesn't kick in hard and the engine is just loping along.

after Nov 73, vw and porsche don't have to worry about fuel economy at high speed cruise? there is no high speed cruise (legally speaking).

They bring EC-A back into play and the cars start having that set up. (accords with dr. 914 and his view that EC-A starts in jan 74). EC-A drives a little sweeter?

interestingly - its not hard for dealers to plug and play between EC-A or EC-B.
just pull a hose and plug throttle body advance port. both scenarios are legal as both are california/EPA approved. doesn't matter about the sticker, thats just the way the car comes initially set up. its a legal mod and legal variation. dealers/mechanics would have known for sure how they could play with the car to make a customer happy and stay within the emissions laws.

?????

------

49 state car. this is the hardest one to work out.
reason being they were certainly selling a 50 state car in places other than california -so why have a 49 state car and why sell a 50 state car in a 49 state.
it has advance only on dist and throttle body?
for fuel economy at high speed cruise?
no retard at idle - not necessary - 49 states did not have the harsher standard for curb idle? car does not run as hot at idle either with no idle retard.
the sticker distinguishes these cars not by EC-A or EC-B - it indicates what it is by only having EPA compliance shown on sticker.

??????? more info/research needed on the 49 state car. a bit thin on ground.

-------

A does not equal USA and B does not equal california.
(evidence is that both A and B are California + EPA).

A does not come before B in chronological time.
(evidence and claims by people who would know for sure says B comes before A).

what A and B are is two possibilities for 74 MY in a very difficult time and environment?
A = emissions compliant and superior driveability (might have been subtle?).
B = emissions complaint and fuel economy (has the edge at high speed cruise?).

vw and porsche have the two options up their sleeve.
and flip for B to begin with?
by late november 1973 any "advantages" B has are rendered marginal by nixon 55mph.
A gets introduced back into the picture.

---------

its only a thesis. ready to be pulled apart.

but the 1.8 is interesting in my view because its the first time L jet is used.
and it is born into a first oil crisis and a first pollution crisis.


---------

still don't have an answer to engine paint stamp codes - original question.

but looks like an EC-B could be either a 604 or a 605.

it looks like an EC-A could be a 607 engine stamp? but only one example so far to go off.

Posted by: StarBear Nov 23 2021, 06:59 PM

My head and brain hurt…..

Posted by: wonkipop Nov 23 2021, 07:12 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=10753 - not as much as mine did trying to work it out.

never understood the retarded ignition at idle until going through this and looking at VanB's problem. (i used to stare at the double vac distributor on my 1.8 30 years ago and wonder WTF it was doing).

everyone focuses on 1.8s as being an emission response design.
which they are.

but we forget the oil crisis.

there was more going on back then than just the EPA killing off engine horsepower.
motoring life got real complicated for six months from oct 73 to mar 74.

Posted by: wonkipop Nov 23 2021, 08:16 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=10753

here is the quick summary version.

EC-B
we have the emission compliant / high speed cruise economy version.
put simply. (its a blunt simplification but its basically what happens).
retard to retard = emission
advance to advance = cruise economy.

EC-A
that is the emission compliant / sweeter driveability off throttle part throttle version.
retard to retard = emission.
no advance = sweeter twisties in the mountains driving.

both are 50 state compliant.
only emission compliance was legally enforceable.
both had to have that.

fuel economy was a free choice strategy.
all they had to do was prove that either versions difference with advance did not adversely effect idle emissions. certification test would have proved that.

fuel economy version only becomes evident in high speed cruising.
by that i mean 80 mph all day on ze indashtaaate.
(some sources say 10%, some as much as 20%, you are going to notice at your wallet).
but difference disappears once you can't do more than 55 mph.
so you may as well go sweet driving option.

my thesis is.
porsche first wanted to do EC-A. the sweet driving. its the purist position.
then they thought again about that because of anwar sadat and his mates in the middle east.
so they went EC-B to begin with.
but 3 months later tricky dicky nixon stepped in anyway and made the call irrelevant when he stopped the fun and made everyone crawl.
so they went to EC-A after all, after xmas. at least you could have fun in the mountains.

------

need EC-A and EC-B version stickers with 49 state certification and intact original hose set up or tune stickers to know what that really is for sure.
but suspect has no retard function activated, only advance function.
and suspect there is an EC-A version of that as well.
already know there was an EC-B version floating around.

-------


once you get your head around the distributor and what its doing with the throttle body,
the rest of the detail above makes sense. that was just me collected the evidence of whats out there. and trying to make sense of it.

funny enough dave darling did make sense of this 10 or more years ago.
but no-one was reading him closely enough.
back then he took everyone at their word, about the different versions,
and just laid it out in practical terms, what each version would do.
he didn't manage to address chronology.

the chronology is the bit that on first glance does not make any sense.
ie. why would B come before A?
thats the bit that was doing my head in.


-----

and i haven't even talked about 75 MY cars.
which all got mixed into previous discussions a long time back on this site.
and that mixing up did not help people sort out question.

but i have worked that one out as well? maybe? its just a guess.

the EC-B which we have.
went on to evolve in 75 and use the advance port on the TB to run the EGR.
one of the benefits of EGR is it not only reduces NOx emission at cruise by making combustion cooler - it gives you a slight increase in fuel economy.
so the EC-B style strategy came back in the 75 cali cars.
retard to retard for emission at idle.
EGR to advance for emission and economy at cruise.

driveability probably went to hell. i don't know. never driven one.

the 75 49 states is a little less clear.
it does not have a cat as the obvious thing.
but i think its got nothing.
its just got retard at idle and thats all.
i need to find more images to study and verify.

Posted by: StarBear Nov 24 2021, 07:52 AM

Yep; that sums it up nicely! Interested to see with more data on other early-mid 74 1.8s.
Do you have all the info and pics you need for mine?
Meanwhile, I've pulled up the base image that I used for the tuneup sticker; it has just the one (retard) hose as shown here. Really did look like a smudge or Sharpie scribble. With the two variations for 1.8s, I think I'll just keep the "base" version, without the hose(s), so as not to confuse someone who should have two hoses. @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=8571 B

Posted by: wonkipop Nov 24 2021, 02:26 PM

where did the image of the tuneup sticker come from @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=10753 ?

i take it that was not yours.
someone has an EC-A that provided it?
contact them for details of engine set up?

definitely leave your sticker alone.

Posted by: StarBear Nov 24 2021, 03:12 PM

From a forum member. Will check back on the thread.
Yeah; sticker is good (and generic) enough.

Posted by: wonkipop Nov 24 2021, 05:06 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=10753 .

Found another one that was for sale at Classic Cars of Sarasota.
(wasn't a bad looking car, looked v original, sold, someone got themselves a good one i think)

VIN 01/74
karmann build date 14 Jan 74.
its 852 cars before mine and built 12 days prior.
(interesting - they built at least 81 cars that day, gives some idea of production levels).

two hose tune up sticker.
orig two hose vacuum hook up still on it.
as per wonki/starbear/van b.

could not read emission sticker, not quite in good enough res/focus.
but - i would say based on the rest of it - is an EC-B as it matches ours

Posted by: StarBear Nov 24 2021, 05:37 PM

More interesting stuff.
Found the tuneup sticker thread - at http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=335446&hl=1.8L++engine++sticker
From member @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=3236 but his ID doesn't indicate what car he has and he's not been on since July. COVID or just busy? Oakpark - do you know which car this was from?

BTW, here's his original image that started it all. 2 hoses, 1 port.
The one I started with was from @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=104 , just a bit further down in the thread. 1 hose, 1 port. Jeff - do you know which car this was from?

Interesting tidbit observation: Even the sticker with the two hoses shows only ONE vacuum can port.

Posted by: JeffBowlsby Nov 24 2021, 06:00 PM

I dont, sorry. I right click alot and dont recall them all...

Perhaps one/both of you can create the correct vacuum hose diagram for EC-A and EC-B cars?

Posted by: StarBear Nov 24 2021, 06:10 PM

Thanks, Jeff.
Thinking about updating it - just not sure which arrangement(s) go with for the EC-A car. So far, two variations of stickers: 1 hose, 1 port and 2 hoses, 1 port. Have yet to see any with 2 hoses and two ports. My repro is now more "generic", with no hoses, 1 port.

Posted by: wonkipop Nov 24 2021, 07:56 PM

they draw both ports on the dizzy diagrams @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=10753 .

i think the one you used as a basis might have had a little distortion from wrinkles.
kind of ended up looking more oval and less like a cylinder tube on your drawing?
you did draw it in though on your repro.

Posted by: wonkipop Nov 24 2021, 08:05 PM

too many mysteries yet mr. b

need some more cars to come up. as @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=10753 says - the EC-A car.

yet to sight a 49 state car.
but parts book and sticker says they exist like you said.

Posted by: StarBear Nov 24 2021, 08:20 PM

A thought- lots of members listing early 74s in the VIN database. Maybe contact a few with queries?

Posted by: wonkipop Nov 24 2021, 09:11 PM

good idea

i might put up a separate thread in garage section that is - attention 74 1.8 owners and see if it gets any interest? people might see that, the other one was buried in van b's thread which had a different topic.

Posted by: wonkipop Nov 25 2021, 05:39 AM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=10753

found this. maybe of interest.

don't know if anyone nailed down a date they moved vapor can in 73 from the frunk to the engine bay for 74 MY.


NOV 73 VIN 4743908482
karmann # = 4629626 = tues 13 nov 73
has frunk can.

your car is wed 28 nov 73
has engine bay can.

thats the k number and not the day the cans were installed.
but sometime in there.

they managed to build 1,278 cars between the two cars.
in 10 days. average of 127.8 cars a day.
the car i came across was car # 126 for the day.
its got a 6 in the k number instead of a 5
cranking them out.

the car appears to be an EC-B.
its got advance port connections.
california delivered.
haven't stumbled across another EC-A yet.

Posted by: StarBear Nov 25 2021, 07:46 AM

Interesting. Good idea with the new thread; maybe in the Originality Forum?
The adventure continues!

Posted by: wonkipop Nov 25 2021, 05:26 PM

another good one i found digging back into sales archives.
maybe a bit over shined and over prepped, but a very intact car.
lots of interesting information aside from TB set up.

thursday 6 december 1973 build.

697 cars after @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=10753 car.
a start of the day car - #7 off the line.
6 days between starbear car and this.
= roughly 116 cars per day production. pumping them out!

its an EC-B off the setup of vac line and throttle body type and tune up sticker.
pity dealer did not take a photo of emission sticker/engine tin stencil, took a photo of everything else! it was sold new in cincinatti. not a california delivery.
huge amount of detail, particularly with document file that came with car.








other firm information of interest to originality for restoration by 1.8 owners -
i'll post up next.

Posted by: wonkipop Nov 25 2021, 05:40 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=104

free first service card.




i guess most people handed these in at 600 miles and never got them back from dealer?
not in my file for my car. this guy kept everything.

next. some sort of folder/book.
particular to cicincatti porsche dealer?
or is it something a fastidious and proud owner made himself?



typical problem and unusual problem.
vapor lock.
side decals failed/peeled - new ones had to be fitted.
usually the 74s had the drop out decals, owner might have changed it to the earlier style because he liked it better?

Posted by: wonkipop Nov 25 2021, 05:53 PM

firm confirmation of plumbing to engine bay charcoal can.
another one exactly like wonki and starbear cars.
or is it?
plumbed up VW way, rather than porsche way?
in this car the can appears to be reversed in orientation from wonki car, but the hose layout is the same (with the S curve hose off the fan cowl).
so this one is plumbed porsche way?
my car is after this one, mine is a late jan build.
914 mysteries continue.
found quite a few of these confirming images re plumbing i've found trawling sales of very good condition original cars. this is the first one i have seen where the can is reversed in orientation (see the shape of the end of can). could have been taken out and put back in the other way around - or is evidence of a first installation set up by the factory - more questions. (if you put the can in this way, you would need a longer small hose to join the vapor line to get around to lhs of can. i did not change that hose in my car or alter the can). there are receipts in document files for all the usual work it takes to recommission a car dated 2020. this car sat for a long time somewhere in storage which explains its generally good condition. lots of fuel line work and injectors fuel tank etc done. so can could have come out and gone back in. i've never touched the can in mine.



further evidence of 74 1.8 engine bay hose colors.
i noticed that one line off the decel valve on my car was a very faded red or brown color. just one hose. along with green vacuum retard hose off the distributor.
all other hoses were mid to dark grey color.

this car shows clearly. one reddish brown hose off decel. green hose off dist.

original hoses from wonki car (bagged after replacement).
i left the green hose on the dist.

Posted by: wonkipop Nov 25 2021, 07:57 PM

14 jan 74 car at top of page is exactly same as mine (late jan 74) for charcoal can plumbing and orientation.

Posted by: wonkipop Dec 16 2021, 04:23 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=104

after all the info came in from members with 1.8s - and some searching through older BAT ads with lots of detail photos we turned up the following on engine tin number stamps.

by and large 4 numbers.

604, 605, 606, 607.

we have reliable original cars with 604.
these are EC-B (for all intents and purposes established as EPA/49 state).
these cars are 1.8s that came new without the console and gauge pack.

we have reliable original car with 605.
this is an EC-B. this car came with the console gauge pack from new.

(i always thought the 1.8s did not get a guage/console option like the 2.0s but turns out they did, StarBear got one).

we have a reliable original car with 606.
this is an EC-A (for all intents and purposes the california car since it has the CARB approval). this car was a base 1.8 from new with no gauges/console.

i found a detailed BAT ad with a well documented EC-A with 607.
documents show it came new with gauges and console.

we know from parts manual that EC-B came with different throttle body than EC-A.
EC-B definitely had two port throttle body and full distributor hook up.
it seems very likely that EC-A had single port throttle body and only one hose hookup to distributor.

from parts manual the only other difference i can find in 1.8s is provision for guage hookup with engine. the so called Taco Plate.

i think this is a possibility.

EC-B no guage/console = 604
EC-B guage/console = 605
EC-A no guage/console = 606
EC-A guage/console - 607.

we have a spread on these 600 series numbers from 11/73 to 06/74,
so they use them throughout 74 MY production run.

is support of this i found some material for type 1 engines for beetles.
these are stamped with M followed by three numbers.
those codes describe what the engine has in terms of specific carburettors or fuel injection. it meant the right engine came out of stock to be mated with the right fitted out body at the end of the production line.

i think a similar thing goes on with 914s when you look at the factory photos.
the virtually fully finished and fitted out bodies are mated with the suspension and drive train right at the end.

you want the correct engine going in the correct body.
and there are only 4 variables as far as i can tell.
they need to know this as the cars are not really being built in batches.
we have found EC-A and EC-B cars built only a few numbers apart on the line.

IO it turns out is for engines that failed initial inspection and had some rectification required. after rectification they were stamped in order and returned to the line.

there is one other number i found on a BAT advertised car.
it was d370 and the engine looked to be a EC-B.
a good guess might be a replacement engine under warranty?
or something like that.
when i get time to spare at odd moments i'll try and keep searching out these codes.
i have found a fair bit on the ones for type 1 engines.
but the type 4 stuff is not information floating around.

Posted by: JeffBowlsby Dec 16 2021, 05:27 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=24231

Wonki...Your research is exhaustive, appreciated and commendable. I need to wade through this in greater detail althought I have been distantly keeping tabs on it all along.

But one thing piques my interest...you identify 4 engine tin codes which are really two sets of two codes that you suggest indicate both with/without the center console and gauges as a prime variable. The EC-A and EC-B designations appear on the emissions sticker so obviously they pertain to emisions in some way. And I like your throttle body/vaccum line arrangement discoveries.

But the center console with its gauges was an optional equipment item that is plug N play and has nothing to do with emissions. All 1974 914s had the same chassis harness with the center console connections in the cabin floor, whether the car was equipped with the console or not. Seems odd that the optional console would be somehow related to the engine tin code.

Your thoughts?

Posted by: wonkipop Dec 16 2021, 07:32 PM

its still a bit of a speculation.

its hard to get a real exhaustive sampling.

between members and what you could find on BAT from old ads i got about 30 reasonable cars on file.
the BAT is surprisingly one of the handiest resources - people take a lot of photos to sell the cars. and sometimes the fluke shots are in there to identify things.

the only way to really know is the VW archive.

i'm going to see if i can find the contact details for the director of the museum and archive. if i do i will write a letter and see if i can interest them in looking into it.
if i lived in germany i would just go and knock on their door and talk my way in.

it was a bit of fun to get this far with it.
thanks to you alerting us to the EC-A or EC-B thing.
didn't even know about that stuff until a few weeks ago.


its entirely possible what you suggest with the plug and play thing.
but its the only thing i can think of where you would want the engines coming from hamburg, already completed to have the right taco plate on.
they were building some cars to order for customers.
i was astonished to find out that some 1.8s came with the guages from the get go and it was not a dealer install item.

its all academic - only so if the numbers go according to my theory.
and its only a theory.

Posted by: Van B Dec 16 2021, 07:52 PM

Strangely enough I have two distinct thoughts as I read this:
First, it’s so cool to see the deduction result in a solid theory on OEM coding.
Second, f-Ing VW and Porsche. Neither of them cared enough about this car to enshrine these differences for posterity. But now Porsche is so enthusiastic about claiming this car as their own…

Posted by: JeffBowlsby Dec 17 2021, 01:03 AM

The center console /gauges were just an optional equipment M-code that could be added to any 914 in 1974. The oil temp sender and its cable was part of that M-code and was separate from emissions categorization on the emissions labels.

Posted by: StarBear Dec 17 2021, 09:23 AM

Unless (?) the tins for the console/gauges cars were just a bit different, like an extra hole or slit for sensor/sender wires to the gauges. Thoughts?

Posted by: JeffBowlsby Dec 17 2021, 12:29 PM

Nope. The oil temp sender wire emanates through the engine shelf on the car, not the engine tin.

I am thinkin its only the subtleties of the throttle body/vaccum connecitons as Wonki has described.

Posted by: wonkipop Dec 17 2021, 08:45 PM

gentlemen.


i'm not referring to the wire.
correct me if i am wrong but the wire for the oil temp gauge sender was already there in all cars anyway?

i'm talking about the plate on the bottom of the engine.
thats the part that is different on a complete engine assembly in a car without the gauge v a car with the gauge.
that lid is only available for the 1.7, 1.8 and 2.0. ie 1973 on. when the gauge pack and console is available as an option.
1.7s earlier than 1973 are referred to as plain 914/4 or 914-4 in the parts manual not 1.7.
reading PET closely it looks like it says to me that all 2.0s got the special gauge plate by default, but not 1.8s. unless you ordered the 1.8 with the gauges from factory the plate was the standard one. PET implies you could do same thing with a 1.7 in 73 too.







bear in mind that the engines (completely assembled) came from the hamburg factory, 230km from osnabruek.

if the practices at hamburg were the same as wolfsburg the engines were filled with oil once fully assembled and ok'ed. the last step before being sent further down the line was to spin them up on a machine connected to the engine. they were not fired up, but they were spun up. the first time they were fired was at the end of the production line when the car was driven off the line and on to a rolling road. (i think they extracted a sampling of engines to run on a dyno before they left the engine assembly area but i don't think they ran all the engines on a dyno fired up).

i'd say it would be highly likely the same thing was occurring at karmann.
the production line was in most respects similar just at a smaller scale.
particularly the last bit where fully fitted out bodies were mated with the drive train and suspension assemblies. the drivetrains were on a heavy jig that appeared to move in sideways under the overhead cradle carrying the completed bodies. these engines (and gearboxes) were sealed components, already filled with lubricant (oil or grease) much as per other components arriving at the factory.

it would be inconvenient at karmann if you went for the wire for the oil gauge with a build sheet that said console and the shell had the console already in only to find there was no temp sensing "oil sump lid" present on the engine. or worse it was the wrong engine sitting there on the jig ready to go with the gearbox and the rest of it, because a hungover worker had pulled a 2.0 off the rack.

you could plug and play and take the car off the line and change the plate.
but you would probably have to do an oil change on the factory floor?
you would be "breaking open" the engine.
you could do the same thing at the dealer in the USA for sure. just lose the oil.
(but not with a 2.0 by the looks of it, with those it really was just plug and play? - plates already there whether its a 2.0 with appearance group or not?)
i'm not sure how much oil comes out when you pull that plate but its either the lot or enough.
but these were coming off that assembly line with guages and consoles installed.

its an assembly line, not a garage workshop?

logistics?

i don't think these numbers are some kind of mystery.
its code for the assembly workers to make sure the right component comes off the rack at the right time? its about having the correct finished and sealed component - in this case the engine. part of that is the emissions gear. that affects the component being made elsewhere. and part of that is an options alternative. that also affects the sealed component made elsewhere. more than emissions variables are able to affect the composition of the component? thats the logic i am using for this probably false theory.

one of the surprising things that did come out of this little bit of "research" was that on some days in nov. 73 they were putting minimum 120 cars out the door. (we got a k# with a 6 in it). they might have been working two shifts? but if they weren't thats one every 4 minutes? even one every 8 minutes is fast.

if you are fooling around with taco plates your losing time?

Posted by: wonkipop Dec 17 2021, 09:02 PM

my theory does not explain this however.

Posted by: wonkipop Dec 18 2021, 06:01 PM

this is an interesting vid to watch.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vx0UHvkR_qY

its not vw in the 1970s.
but it gives an insight.
if nothing else its entertaining.

or you can skip to near the end.
last step before it heads off to the dyno.

Posted by: wonkipop Dec 18 2021, 07:22 PM

pictures of the part i am talking about.
oil gasket is involved.
i have no gauges, and if i wanted them, nothing to hook up to.
just like the last picture.

Posted by: wonkipop Dec 18 2021, 09:33 PM

its a good thing we are not trying to do the 75 1.8s.

the distributors get complex to make sense of in the PET catalogue.
i take my hat off to the porsche USA spare parts guys working in the 70s.

the PET i have (and i guess a lot of folks have downloaded) carries the numbers for parts that have superseded the original part.
the new dist is 021 905 205 S that replaced the original 74 dist.

the factory manual refers only to the original distributor for 74 1.8s.
022 905 225 AA.

but you can work it out.
there is only one distributor for 74.
its 022 905 225 AA.
(for 74 they either connect the advance hose for 49 states and don't connect it for california - we surmise, because you can go through the factory workshop manual front to back and there is nothing there to mention that its one hose for calif, and two hoses elsewhere. the only place that is is the tune up sticker on the engine and the CARB docs that L-Jet put us on to).

for 75 it gets way more complicated.
they use a new distributor. 022 905 205 AB.
it uses two different rotors.
a speed limited rotor for 49 states.
a rotor without a speed switch for california - instead a separate speed switch near the relays for the EFI under the battery. limits fuel supply instead of cutting ignition spark. (the californians want that spark there still burning hydrocarbons rather than spewing unburnt fuel out the exhaust on over rev?).
the 75 distributors have a different vacuum can with different retard values than the 74s.
the 75 distributors have the same centrifigal values as 74.
neither 49 states or calif have the advance hose hooked up. that is specifically mentioned in the factory workshop manual.

the parts catalogue can throw things because it suggests there is an alternative rotor for 74 distributor. but i think its really saying the older 022 905 225 A rotor is the one to use with the S dist. that supersedes - making sure you have the speed limited rotor.

but the catalogue puts it the same way for the 75, except they are suggesting there is an alternative rotor to the rotor they list separately which is speed limited. no other mention is made of that rotor except under the primary listing of the distributor. you can't read it the same way as you can the 74 dist. the 75 dist is not listed as having any superseding part.

the only seperate rotors as parts listed further on for 74 and 75 are speed limited.
its a very esoteric way of picking up the non speed limited rotor.

if you were a spare parts guy you would have had to know your stuff.
though it would not make much difference to how the car would run in california, its just you would get ignition cut off as well as fuel cut off if you fitted the 49 states rotor by accident? or maybe there is something in the ECU too. i'll leave that for whoever wants to try and crack 75 engine stamps.

less safeguards (none!!!) if you fitted the calif rotor to the dist without having the calif. fuel cut off switch. nothing to stop you over-reving? no ignition cut off, no fuel cut off.

-------

thats how they did the distributor for 74. they kept it simple. same distributor, just the advance hose went nowhere for calif.

Posted by: wonkipop Dec 18 2021, 10:08 PM

going back to the start of this wild goose chase and @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=23849 question.




chasing stuff about 1.8 numbers i did come across a limited set of M #s for type 4s (411/412). for 1973 MY for EA and EB engines for 412s, M553 meant north american (usa/canada) specification. since they were using EA engines in europe that probably meant drilling out the fan hosing for the charcoal filter hose port on na cars to distinguish them from euro?

didn't run across M28.
its fair to say that the engine stamp there is saying its got two M code specs.
M28/553.

didn't stumble on anything that could say what 022.6 would mean.

Posted by: wonkipop Dec 21 2021, 06:24 PM

ok @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=104 .

i had another crack at this one and went back to the BAT ad.
found another image.
not d370 - but EA370.
some paint missing or dirt over it.
enhanced you can see it.




the car it came from is a very early 74 1.8
built Nov 1 1973. (k# 4459576). vin 4742907674.
possibly in the first few days of production of the 1.8 L jets.

i had another look at your collection of paint markings on your website.
you have a number of GA 2.0 engines also with the EA 370 stamp along with 621 underneath.

its possible that EA 370 is not referring to a specific engine type, (ie 2.0L or 1.8L) but the overall development number for the model year engines. in this case 74MY?
maybe very early engines bear the EA stamp? certainly curious that both a 1.8 and some 2.0L engines have the same EA number stamped on them.

Posted by: wonkipop Dec 29 2021, 05:09 PM

HOW THE NUMBERS WORK FOR 70-71

022.6

the engine is an 022 type 4 engine with fuel injection.
(an 021 is a type 4 engine with carburettors).

the .6 is the particular variant of the engine.
in this case with the engine tins (apron/edge pieces) to suit the 914 engine bay.

the 914 started out life as a VW type 4, with a type 4 model number.
(initially the car was to be a VW version with the 4, and a porsche version with a 6,
only closer to production did it become the hybrid VW-Porsche 914).



from parts catalogue VW Type 411/412




M26/553 were VW M Codes outlining a particular specification for the 022.6 (914) variant of the type 4 engine.

full list of type 4 M-Codes.
from parts catalogue VW Type 411/412.







this



means
type 022 engine (fuel injected type 4) for 6 (vw-porsche 914/4)
with
M26 activated charcoal holder for absorption of fuel gases.
part of
M553
US/Canada equipment package.
Sealed Beam Headlights, Flashing lights with side marking lights,
Tailight with Red Flashing lights,
Buzzer for Ignition Switch,
Side Marking Lights,
Dual Circuit Brake light,
but without headlight flasher and parking lights etc.

in short - 914 engine for north america.

at this stage they were only making the one 4 cylinder engine for north america through 70,71 and 72.

things got more complicated in 73.
i've seen photos of VW type 1 engines accumulating a large number of M codes on them to mark the spec they are / which model.
easy to start having errors on assembly line - wrong engine off the shelf?



from 72 - 73 things get simplified.
they move into a single stamped three number code.
right across the entire VW model range.
more on that next.

- the 914 4 cylinders get 6 as the first number of that code, at least until 1975.

Posted by: JeffBowlsby Dec 30 2021, 01:27 PM

Amazing research. Whats the difference between 1.8 and 1.8V?

Also VERY interesting that the 1976 914 1.8/1.8V is indicated. Apparently wishful thinking.

Posted by: wonkipop Dec 30 2021, 04:54 PM

V is the code used in the parts manual to distinguish the twin carb euro 1.8.
carby is Vergaser in german.
strictly speaking they maybe should have called them 1.8Z in the catalogue.
Zweivergasser. dual carb.

yeah, i don't think they sold them in 76 given they sold only 101 1.8Vs in ROW in 75.
its about the only sub variant (besides the G two litres) you can work out the production numbers for since the engine was in nothing else.

you can't find 022.6 stated explicitely anywhere in any VW documents i came across but you can surmise it from that 411/412 PET. 022.1 022.2 022.3 and so on.

i found all this stuff getting to the bottom of EC-A and EC-B.
there is more. i'll post it when i have a bit of time.
its a part explanation for the numbers that come after 72.
not complete and i can't be certain exactly how it works.
but the first number of the three is definitely allocated to particular VW models.
and they change them on an annual basis if models were dropped from the range.

the key bit of information was stumbling across the PET catalogue for the 411/412 on VW's own classic website. its in german but you can work it all out from that.
thats the only place where the type 4 M codes are. i think the 914 shared these M codes but it may have had some of its own specific ones too.

so mr. b this is all thanks to you.
i would never have normally bothered to look up this stuff.
i just wanted to find out about my EC-B engine.
its pretty obscure stuff.
and folks have had some whacky ideas about what those stamps mean.
esp on the samba site.
some guesses were pretty close when it comes to the early stamps.
but no one had worked out the three number stamps.

i think i have a version.
i'd need more info to really crack it.
but i have a version of how it works thats probably half way to it.

Posted by: wonkipop Dec 30 2021, 10:35 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=104

below is about as far as i can take the logic for the three number series of engine stamps past 72.

first of all i looked at your engine stickers and markings section on your website.
i liked the way you posted them chronological.
to try and tease out an order?

https://bowlsby.net/914/Classic/PLM.htm

i thought ok. there is something there.

the weird thing that jumps out is the EA EB series engines.
in between the numbers for the EC engines and the G series engines.

whats that about?

and then it goes from 6 as the first number for 73/74 to 9 as the first number 75/76.

its kind of chronological set of numbers and kind of not.


-------

i'd found random engine stamp numbers in research for EC engines along the way.
for different model VWs.

this is what i found.

VW type 1 engines. (beetles) with upright fan shroud.
all seemed to start with 1 as first number of three digits.
(i found a thing with the same number, has the same engine, but might not have been an original engine as i think things basically take a beetle engine straight up).







i came across a bus engine, for buses fitted with type 1 engine.
has a 2 as a first number of three digits.







found a 73 type 3 engine. (last year of type 3 production).
has a 4 as first number.







found a type 4 engine. 74 412 with L jet.
has a 5 as a first number.



----------

then found something interesting.

75 bus with a type 4 engine.
has a 7 as the first number.



couple of 78 buses with a type 4 engine.
has a 4 as the first number.
(thought, wait a minute, type 3 had 4 in 73 .....but that was it for type 3 as ceased production in 73).




so maybe buses with type 4 motor got reallocated the 4 number post 75 or something like that?
...........and is this a bit like 914 goes from 6 to 9 in 75 as the first number.

and that 6 that is in front of the 73/74 model engine stamp numbers links with the 6 that comes after 022 in the 70-72 cars. so 6 stays with 914s from 70-74 in terms of production identification for the engines being made in hamburg.

---------------

thats the point in thinking where i thought, ok the first number represents the model the engine is going in.

but the number does not stay stable. it gets reallocated in periodic adjustments of the model allocation number as VW cease production of certain models and introduce new models. there is quite a bit of that going on in the period 73-77 as VW overhaul their range and introduce the new water cooled engine cars to replace the air cooled cars.

----------------

then i took another look at the 914 numbers and arranged them slightly differently to your chronological list of markings down the page.

i used the numbers instead arrranged in ascending order down the page.

i got this as a rough worksheet. and thats all it is. a rough worksheet.



the black ones are the ones we know exist.
the red ones are the gaps in the numbers.
they could be real or they could not exist.

there are quite a few variations of the 914 engine unaccounted for.
particularly the european variants of the motor.

one way to flesh out this speculative list is to canvas member owners of 1975 1.8s.
those numbers can be obtained from resources available to this website.
they are hard to see hidden under the heater blower fan hose so members need to look and uncover them. not something you can glean from BAT ads.

as to euro 1.8s. the only one probably is that one in the porsche museum.
they may be able to oblige?

------------

i think the EA numbers work the following way.

EA370 covers the development order to do the post 72 engine range.
its probably an order supplied to porsche.

then there is the mysterious EA 349 development order.
this is matched to a 621 G series engine.
??????????


you need a full list of the VW EA projects with the dates to get to the bottom of that.

----------------

i think what happens in a very approximate way is.

initially the program for replacement engine range (post 72) gets laid out.
all the numbers are allocated.
they already know before 1972 what they have to do and they know the steps ahead in relation to US EPA and CARB laws and the years in which the steps will occur.
1. unleaded gas.
2. lowered NOx CO HC emissions.
3. introduction of cats.

so the set of two final numbers of the three get allocated/listed.

initially it would have all been laid out under the assumption of 6 as the first number.

the 6 gets changed to 9 in 75 because VW do a reshuffle on the model number the engine is going into as they rearrange their model range?

thats as far as i can take it.

but it is within the means of this website and members to flesh out the 9 series of numbers for the 75 1.8s and fill in a few more gaps.


and i have made my deadline to get all of this out of my files and on to the website here before the end of the year so i can go do something useful in 2020.

happy new year for 12 hours away now here. we are on the other side of the dateline.

Posted by: StarBear Dec 31 2021, 10:02 AM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=24231 - and a very happy ending to 2021 and hope for a grand 2022 to you from the other side of The Blue Marble!
Thanks for all you've done for us this past year!

Posted by: wonkipop Jan 8 2022, 06:14 AM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=104

came across one more you can add to list of 914 stamped numbers.

throws my theory out a bit!

920. (75 1.8)

(there is a 620 given to a 73-74 GB 2.0 L engine).

advertised on ebay as a 75 1.8 engine.
looks right. emission sticker in correct place.





close up of emission sticker says its a 49 state car.

Posted by: JeffBowlsby Jan 8 2022, 12:07 PM

Thanks! I needed this 75 1.8L emissions label. Did I miss the theory on why these are not ECA-ECB? I have 918 as a 1975 1.8L 49-state car, this 920 is a new wrinkle.

Posted by: wonkipop Jan 8 2022, 03:01 PM

yep - also wrinkles my theory on the engine numbers.

according to what i was thinking - the run of numbers from 73 on mean a 75 1.8 can't share the last two numbers of the three with a 73-74 2.0L. but looks like it does, (20) so there is some other explanation for the ordering of the numbers than they are cumulative.

918 and 920 seem to apply to 75 EC-a (small a = 49 state 1975).
so like in 74 there are two numbers for at least one of the 75 EC engine sub variants.
(i had that bit of my theory/prediction right with this 920 popping up).
EC-A (74 calif) = 606, 607.
EC-B (74 usa) = 604, 605.
and now.
EC-a (75 usa) = 918, 920.

need to get a number/numbers? on a 75 EC-b (calif).

i ran back over my files and found this looking closely.
a 75 1.8 chassis number .....01627. build date 10/74.
(this was a washington car sold new - 49 states).
has an EA number above 918 but its very smudged.
it seems of every year production there is a smattering of engines early on in the run which have these EA stamps additional to the numbers. at least the ones i have come across and can link to a vin/k#.

Posted by: wonkipop Jan 10 2022, 10:04 AM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=104

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=10753

The director of the Porsche Heritage and Museum replied to my letter.
I wrote as nice a letter as i could.

below is the engine stamp number for a 1974 !.8 (euro spec) AN engine.
(without appearance group gauges and console.)
This is the silver 1.8 held in the museum and was donated by Mr. Horst Marchart, former Porsche Development Chief.

its as hot as hell here and i couldn't sleep.
wandered down and took a look at computer having a glass of water - email just came through.

Posted by: StarBear Jan 10 2022, 10:17 AM

Wow! Great job. More data on a different version. Making progress!

Posted by: Van B Jan 10 2022, 10:06 PM

That is so cool!!!

Posted by: wonkipop Jan 11 2022, 03:36 AM

i thought about that letter for a month before i wrote it.

i got a reply back in less than 24 hours.


basically i just said we were interested in preserving a culture of how things were made by a culture of people. thats all i did.
and ......i guess the car was accessible.
i also gave clear directions so that no one would be wasting time to take a look at it.

there is one number missing.
609.
i doubt we will ever find an example.
but my theory is sound when it comes to 1974 1.8s?

it gets more chaotic after that in 75 in terms of the number sequencing.

i have another thought on the whole thing.
which is 1.8 L jets were supposed to appear in 73.
but they did not make it on time.

thats a ramones song.
" i can't make it on time".

Posted by: wonkipop Jan 12 2022, 04:19 PM

doing a final sweep through my files - here are a couple more examples.
examples found during our research for 1.8 ECA/B.
i didn't include these in tables of survey information as i could not get a chassis number on the cars. poor condition. but they are of interest.

#1
from infamous b. h. c. c.
74 1.8 with 605 engine tin stamp same as @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=10753 car.
while it looks like its been worked over in usual way with a rattle can spray job tart up, and its lost its EFI for carbs, it does appear to be the remains of an original car. its got guages and a console same as starbear car. not quite as reliable as starbear car in originality stakes, but the pattern repeats as per my speculation. base car ordered with gauges and console from factory got different engine stamp due to the oil temp sump lid?





#2.
the sad remains of a 75 1.8. car looks like a a terminal rust case that got parked a few decades ago and was picked over. whats left of it looks like the corpse of something that was pretty original. its got the newly discovered 920 engine stamp same as engine i posted earlier for mr. b's interest (which by the emission sticker was a 49 state 75 1.8).
918 is the other stamp for a 49 state 75 1.8.

this is an indication that the pattern of 74 cars repeats in 75? there are two engine stamp numbers for each variant of 1.8?

what was left of this car had a console in it. 920 = 75 1.8 with console and gauges and 918 = 75 1.8 without if ordered from factory new that way?





----

also another 411/412 engine lying around in files.
(french ad!, says its a 914 engine, tin says its a 411/412 engine, probably a variant).
has same first number as the 411/412 i posted earlier as examples of the 3 number combinations for particular VW models.
looks like 411/412s likely ran a 5 series set of stamps for their engines.




might be time to open a thread in garage section for members with 75 1.8s.
i believe there are two more numbers out there for those cars clustered around 918 and 920. for the californian 1.8s. there would also be two numbers i think for ROW AN engine 1.8s in 75 but i think we have buckleys and none chance of getting those.
would any even survive?

could run a second thread to see if there is anything more to EA and EB cars in 72/73 than the two known of 610 and 613.

Posted by: wonkipop Jan 12 2022, 10:55 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=10753 and @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=104

i don't know enough about 73/74 2.0L cars. none in my general vicinity for 30 years for me to notice things.

just twigged looking at my old restorer's guide first edition that no matter what 2.0 L cars got a temp gauge. either the combo guage in the cluster or the fancy console one. i'm slow. i was thinking the sump lid temp connection was a redundancy thing in 2.0L in case you wanted the fancy console - but they all had it no matter what as they all had a temp gauge of one sort or another

whereas your 1.7. 1.8 like mine just got the idiot handbrake light flasher and a plain sump lid. i reckon my theory is very valid. there would have been folks who wanted that temp gauge even in their 1.8s. and porsche could give you one with the console if you special ordered it. but only if the engine was right with the correct lid in place.

i've been looking for consoles in 73 1.7 sales adverts thinking there could be other engine stamp numbers for 1.7s too besides 610 and 613. but not stumbled on a 1.7 with a factory fitted console.

Posted by: JeffBowlsby Jan 13 2022, 12:46 AM

Not all 2.0s received the oil temp gauge. Some had no OT gauge. Both OT gauges were optional equipment.

Posted by: wonkipop Jan 13 2022, 02:17 AM

the plot thickens!

Posted by: wonkipop Jan 13 2022, 12:05 PM

i looked up the pet catalogue.
it agrees with dr. b johnson.

says oil temp gauge not an option on a 2.0 - says its a choice between instrument binnacle or console if you tick the console. deleted from instrument binnacle when you get the console and replaced with idiots guide to the handbrake.

according to pet o t gauge is an option on the 1.7 and 1.8 if you tick the console box on the order. but you don't get to do the instrument binnacle one.

pet and dr. j book seems to support my theory. all 2.0s come with the engine sump lid because all get a temp gauge.
only console 1.8s would ever get a temp gauge and require a sump lid with temp sensor.

pet also says consoles were available as option for 1.7s in 73.
there must be some 1.7s floating around that got a console on factory order?
be interesting to investigate and see if there is a different engine stamp involved.
but i can't find one scanning recent sales documentation.

Posted by: JeffBowlsby Jan 13 2022, 12:55 PM

For 1973-76 there were 914s without the center console and oil temp gauge, which was an Appearance Group item, find the models here: https://bowlsby.net/914/Classic/ModelNumbers.htm

I cannot find anything that indicatres if a 914 does not have the Appearance Group oil temp gauge in the console, then it had the oil temp in the dash gauge.

The list indicates for all 2.0L cars PN 91464110130 is listed

For 73 the list indicates PN 91464110240 as the standard 2.0L dash gauge without the oil temp for non-console (non-appearance group) cars. Its standard gauge does not include teh oil temp gauge

For 74 the list indicates PN 91464110150 as the 74 'standard' (non-appearance group) 2.0L gauge, but I cannot find a photo anywhere of that gauge. Anyone have an image ofthat gauge?

Here are gauges 91464110130 (top) and 91464110240 (bottom):


Attached thumbnail(s)


Attached image(s)

Posted by: wonkipop Jan 13 2022, 05:11 PM

the distinguishing number seems to be the third set of three numbers.

a 102 is the standard type (with handbrake light) fitted to 1.7s or 1.8s, but also to 2.0s (if they have a console).

a 101 is the binnacle gauge that has the o t section at top.

pet says a /6 gets 101, then a 914 2.0 and then 74 2.0 on. the three different types evolution being covered by the last two numbers.

the pet is pretty clear.
you get the 101 as base level 2.0
"for cars without centre console".
you get the 102 if you order the console and it replaces the 101 in a console car.
which makes sense. why would you have two temp gauges.

but the 101 (for instrument binnacle) is never listed as a possibility for a /4, 1.7 or 1.8.

it would make sense that porsche wanted all the 2.0s to have a temp gauge.
they replace the 6 in the model line up. even in base form.
its the performance car.
(and it was, i have driven a 2.0 euro spec car here, they got up and went straight out of the box and to me actually felt faster than the 6 i drove. at least for the first bit away from the lights - the euro cars were also slightly lighter, less steel up the front and in the doors, pretty nice actually).

Posted by: wonkipop Jan 13 2022, 06:40 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=104 .

i went to your link.
extensive list of model number (option packages) there.
but nothing that lists specifically what is in a standard 2.0 package for 73 on.

unless you are assuming that standard means no temp gauge
.....but the pet is making it clear that standard means it has a temp gauge and its in the binnacle. and its not if its got a console - which is the option.

where does the console fall? is it appearance group option. or is it performance group option for MY 73-74. that is how the console gauge offers up.

-----

i glanced at your engine table down the bottom.

our recent data collection on 74 1.8s could be used to update.
as we discovered its the other way around with the EC-A and B in 74.
pretty conclusively. ref CARB docs and original sales locations in either calif or 49 states.

the case of the 75s is interesting as the only place an EC-a or EC-b is mentioned is in
that service and training manual for 75s that you have. there is no classification of the engines as (a) or (b) on the emissions stickers anymore as they move into calling them engine family numbers. i think its 15 and 16.

i noticed something from reading the pet and looking closely at the engine types for 73 when i was trying to work out if there was something to base engines getting gauges.

it looks to me like the PET says W series engines keep being used for european cars in 73. they don't appear to list EA as being for ROW?
the EA and EB are strictly for the USA? the EA starting up in 72. either at start of model year or some time during model year?

Posted by: Van B Jan 14 2022, 09:13 AM

Side bar to the current conversation:
Did you send a link to your threads here when you emailed the Porsche museum? I would be curious to know if he saw the work you were putting in to deduce the long lost methods used 50yrs ago to build these things.

Van

Posted by: wonkipop Jan 14 2022, 04:34 PM

i gave him the list of known numbers that jeff bowlsby had compiled and the extra three (including his) found with this recent survey. if he looked up jeff's website he would see how serious jeff has been over the years compiling stuff.

hard to know if porsche would be interested in what VW got up to at the hamburg eggbeater manufacturing facility. although these days they are supposed to be all one big happy family? its VW stuff not porsche manufacturing history?

lets face it - the numbers are mere curiousities?
or of interest to the super fastidious restorer.

but aside from idiosyncratic restoration of technological anachronisms, the #s seem to hint at something. the L jet engines have lower numbers in the sequencing than the last of the 1.7 D jets. i could be seeing too much in that. but its of interest.

it can only be answered by a proper historian, on the ground in germany, with access to the factory archives of both VW and Bosch.

no-one seems to know that much about the early development of L jet.
i've looked around. there is not much history on it.
plenty on D jet and the Bendix idea they developed up.

it looks to me like VW and Bosch were cooking up L jet well in advance and were pushing to get it into the cars as soon as they could. they knew it was the way to go but had some trouble getting it into the cars as early as they hoped?

its just a wild guess, but i think their ideal plan was to have L jet base cars and the D jet 2.0 in 73 when they revamped and re-orgnised the engine line and model make up. thats also about the time porsche was angling to take over full responsibility of the 914 project. i think the 1.7 D jets were in there as a contingency back up. they knew that the 1.7 in a california car was a disaster. and to some extent it was. 72 or 73 hp. a bit of a joke. unfortunately the 1.8 was a year late to save them from that situation.
and california was not some small sector of their market. it accounted for an absurdly large percentage of total porsches sold. so it was a real problem in 73.

----

Posted by: wonkipop Feb 10 2023, 01:19 AM

given over the last 2 years or so we have discovered three new numbers to add to the extensive collection and catalogue @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=104 has amassed on his website i had a bit of spare time to put the numbers as known into order.

this includes the 607 and 608 number discovered for 1974 1.8s and the 919 number for 1975 1.8s that more recently turned up.

there are still a few out there eluding us.

Posted by: L-Jet914 Feb 28 2023, 08:08 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=104 I believe this is the gauge your looking for. I just purchased this recently from 914Sixer (Mark) to add to my 74 1.8 after I get all the other components to make everything work.


Attached image(s)

Posted by: JeffBowlsby Mar 1 2023, 07:26 PM

Excellent, thanks!

Posted by: L-Jet914 Mar 1 2023, 11:00 PM

You're welcome. Anything to help out the preservation of our little cars.

Posted by: wonkipop Apr 25 2023, 06:39 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=104

another one of the engine tin stamp numbers has come in from a member over at the samba. Lars S from Belgium. i see from his signature he is a great fan of the type 4 and has a collection of 411s and 914s.

the number is from a 1972 (european spec) 1.7 D Jet.
the engine is a W0 series engine as distinct from the USA EA series engines.
he knows his stuff, so the number would be valid.
its 606.



kind of interesting because 606 gets used again for the (EA/AN edit typo) EC/AN series of numbers in 74.
i guess it makes sense. the W0 1.7 euro engines are retired at the end of 73 MY so the number series with 0 in the middle is available again to identify engines.

it would appear in 72/73 that the middle number as a 0 might be used for the ROW W0 engines, the middle number 1 for the EA engine of 72/73 for USA and EB engine of 73.
the middle number 2 gets allocated to the 2.0 L engines for ROW and USA respectively.
in 74 the 0 series gets given to the 1.8s after the 1.7 goes out of use?

i amended/updated the charts with the info to date

Posted by: wonkipop Apr 25 2023, 06:44 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=104

i came very close to pulling down the # on a 75 1.8 euro spec car.
for sale in germany at present.
(would have been one of the 101 cars!!).
not much photo documentation. private ebay sale in germany.
one photo was so close. just see the top of the number peeking past the heater hose.

looks like it got backdated bumpers at some point during current owners time with car. one photo shows the original bumper. the sales info lists the model as a 75.
(pretty rough fit around the doors when you look close - )

Posted by: infraredcalvin Jun 2 2023, 12:52 AM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=24231 asked me to post this up here, it’s from my first 914-4 1,8 CA car.

Orig window sticker:


Original 1.8 engine:

Posted by: wonkipop Jun 2 2023, 06:48 AM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=9463

thanks for posting that mate.
you dropped in the last bit of evidence to prove my theory and gave us the final engine stamp number for all the USA market 1.8 L Jets. 74 and 75.
the window sticker is icing (confirmation) on the cake. 921 exists and is just what i thought it would be. its fantastic you came up with those old photos of your car.

Posted by: wonkipop Jun 3 2023, 03:50 PM

updated engine code stencil stamps.

Posted by: wonkipop Apr 9 2024, 03:11 PM

found another 72 MY german delivery 1.7 with legible engine code stamp.
very good original condition well cared for.
engine stamp number looks to be 606.
matches one posted further up page i obtained off a european owner of euro delivered 72 1.7 = also 606.
These are WO series engines in europe - as opposed to EA series in USA at same time.

(ad lists the car as a 71 model. but its a 72. passenger seat update and stalks on steering wheel for windscreen washers. dealer has listed manufacture date? must be a 72MY made after Aug 71. european dealers often list cars this way.