Printable Version of Topic

Click here to view this topic in its original format

914World.com _ Originality and History _ 1974 914 1.8

Posted by: wonkipop Dec 25 2021, 05:12 PM

i'll be dropping the information we have gathered over Dec 2021 in with a set of posts.

the material was prompted by mr b ( @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=104 ) who observed that for the 74 MY there was an EC-A and an EC-B engine. mr b's thought was that the EC-A was a 49 states car and and EC-B was a californian car for emissions.

mr b's view was rational and reasoned. 73 EA engines are 49 states. 73 EB engines are california. 75 engines are documented in factory literature as EC-a (49 states) and EC-b (california). the logic should follow?

BUT

as per the mystery of the 914, the truth about 74 1.8s turns out stranger than fiction (or common sense?).

the material is not necessary to running a 1.8 or having fun with a 14. smile.gif

its for historical purposes and as information to 74 1.8 owners to assist with restoration if they want it.

Posted by: wonkipop Dec 25 2021, 05:14 PM

SURVEY OF MEMBERS WITH 74 1.8s.
INFORMATION FROM RECENT ADVERTISED CARS.
(with thanks to members who provided information on their cars)

Attached Image
Attached Image
Attached Image
Attached Image


EDIT
JULY 2022 - new entry for 05/74 car
AUG 2022 - new data entries.
SEPT 2023 - new data entries.
MARCH 2024 - new data entries.

Posted by: wonkipop Dec 25 2021, 05:19 PM

DATE - UP DATE OF VAPOR EMISSION CONTROL SYSTEM.

location of charcoal canister location changed from front trunk to engine bay.



Attached Image

EDIT MAY 2022

changeover from frunk canister to engine bay canister occurs after
VIN 4742909096 and 4742909104 on 20 Nov 1973.

refer page 2 of this thread for information/data.

EDIT JUNE 2022

a further example came to light.
VIN 4742908765 with engine can.
indicates changeover either side of weekend 17/18 Nov 1973.
Vins may not be in strict chronological order exhibiting the can location change as some Vin cars are completed in a different order to the production plate #s.

refer page 2 of this thread for information/data.

EDIT AUG 2022

to note regarding 4742909096 & 4742909271 - insufficient data was available to determine if these cars may have had earlier fuel tank type fitted while canister location had been updated to engine bay. it remains a possibility that the charcoal can location was updated as early as 4742908765 and stocks of earlier fuel tanks were used until depleted to be replaced by updated fuel tank with mounting bracket and seam slot no longer included.

Posted by: wonkipop Dec 25 2021, 05:41 PM

EC-A and EC-B engines are most obviously identified by (1) and characterised by (2) & (3).

1) emission sticker located on the lhs of the engine bay above the relay board container.

2) engine tune-up sticker located on the lhs of the engine on the upper tin next to the fan housing casting.

3) a painted number stamp located on the engine tinware in various locations.

-----------------

EC-A

1. emission sticker.

Attached Image

Attached Image

Attached Image

note - indicates USEPA and California conforming.


2. engine tune-up sticker

Attached Image

Attached Image

Attached Image

note - tune-up sticker indicates one vac hose to distributor (disconnected for tune up settings).


3. painted number stamp

Attached Image

Attached Image

Attached Image

numbers documented on EC-A were 606 and 607.
location - lhs or rhs engine tin or rhs engine tin apron.


-----------------------

EC-B

1. emission sticker

Attached Image

Attached Image

Attached Image

note - indicates USEPA and California conforming.


2. tune-up sticker

Attached Image

Attached Image

Attached Image

note - tune-up sticker indicates two vac hoses to distributor (disconnected for tune up settings).


3. painted number stamp

Attached Image

Attached Image

Attached Image

numbers documented for EC-B engines were 604 and 605.
location - lhs or rhs engine tin.

Posted by: wonkipop Dec 25 2021, 05:47 PM

emission stickers indicate that both engine versions are california + USA conforming and there is no distinction between EC-A and EC-B (more on that later).

tune-up stickers indicate there is a difference between EC-A and EC-B.

EC-B engines make use of both vacuum advance and retard feature of the distributor. (2 hoses shown disconnected)

EC-A engines make use only of the vac retard feature. (1 hose shown - on retard side and disconnected)

the vac cannister on the distributor is connected to the throttle body.
the tune up sticker implies -
a) a different throttle body for the EC-A with only a vac connection for retard.
b) a throttle body for the EC-B with vac connections for advance and retard.

the parts catalogue has the following information:


1. replacement engine.
two part numbers are noted for replacement engines up to EC0 037 551 (end of 74 MY). one for california. other for USA.

Attached Image




2. throttle body
two throttle bodies are noted for engines up to EC0 037 551.
one for california. other for USA.


Attached Image

Attached Image



3. distributor
only one distributor is noted for engines up to EC0 037 551.

Attached Image

Attached Image

Attached Image



4. ecu

the ecu for 1974 was a single unit for all 1.8s

Attached Image


neither the parts manual or the factory workshop manual makes it absolutely clear what the difference between 1974 USA/california models is in terms of distributor vacuum hose set up and throttle body appearance. nor does the parts manual link the differences it does indicate to either an EC-A or EC-B designation.
-----------------------


CARB (californian air resources board) EXECUTIVE ORDER A-7-5.
(information provided by member L-JET914

the executive order covers approval for the sale of 914 models in california.
it was first issued 29 Jan 74 for 3 months, then rescinded on 25th Mar 1974 with a further approval for 3 months and a further 30 days (to the end of MY 74).
the order also indicates that 74 1.8s were not available/approved for sale until jan 74 -
almost one third into the 74 MY.
the document makes it clear that the approval is for engine type EC-a.
the engine type has a distributor with only centrifugal advance and vacuum retard function (no vac advance function).
this document supports the EC-A as the california only engine (with associated parts) indicated in the parts catalogue.

Attached Image

Attached Image

Attached Image

Attached Image

Attached Image

Attached Image
member survey / advertised cars data indicates EC-A engined cars were sold new in california (established by original sale receipts / orders).
there was one exception (more on that later).
the same data indicates EC-B engined cars were sold new in the 49 states.

this does not explain emission stickers that do not distinguish between california and 49 states. there may be an explanation for that (more on that later).

however it would seem on the basis of factory documents, CARB documents and sales documents that the EC-A engines were california and the EC-B engines were 49 state.

Posted by: wonkipop Dec 25 2021, 06:29 PM

more to come

Posted by: RRietman Dec 25 2021, 07:41 PM

QUOTE(wonkipop @ Dec 25 2021, 04:29 PM) *

more to come

If it makes any difference, I should add that my car was sold new in seattle Wa. 3/74.
I am amazed/interested at the depth of your research.
Thanks
Randy

Posted by: wonkipop Dec 25 2021, 08:24 PM

thanks for that info randy
i revised the schedule to get that info in.

point of sale confirms the pattern - yours being an EC-B.

all this is thanks to mr. b
he asked the question.
we just looked for the answer.
its not that hard to do now thanks to the internet.
for a start its easy for us to all communicate through this website.
and its amazing what you can pull down from EPA archives etc with the right search terms. the american bureaucracy really has digitized their records to an extent that is astonishing. beerchug.gif

+ there are cars like yours and starbears.
he knows everything that has been done to his car since the day he drove it out of the showroom. not many cars and owners like that still around. smile.gif
may as well get it all down on the record. we are not here forever.

Posted by: wonkipop Dec 25 2021, 09:06 PM

EC-A / EC-B THROTTLE BODY AND DISTRIBUTOR WITH VAC HOSE SET UP.



--------------------


EC-A

note. few if any EC-A set ups seem to have survived intact.
or if present on very original cars as found in well documented BAT sales photo galleries the images did not present clear views of the throttle body.

the cars were known to wear out throttle bodies so many could have been replaced with throttle bodies either from EC-Bs or other model VWs with similar dimensioned throttle bodies. it is also possible that EC-As were revised by owners to EC-B set ups (more on that later).

what is known is that the 49 state 1975 1.8 had a similar set up to the 1974 EC-A california car. it utilised only the vac retard side of the distributor. (refer factory workshop manual regarding distributors for 1975).

a photo of an intact 1975 1.8 is used here.
the 1974 EC-A 1.8 either used this throttle body or it utilized the 74 EC-B throttle body with the vacuum advance port capped by the factory with a seal.



1. Throttle body.

(75 EC-a 49 state car).

Attached Image


2. Distributor and vac hose set up.

74 EC-A california. from known EC-A cars documented with either an EC-A emission sticker visible or with a matching EC-A single hose tune-up sticker visible in documented images.

Attached Image

Attached Image

Attached Image


-----------------------



EC-B

images are of known original condition EC-B cars.
(StarBear car & wonkipop car).
all member EC-B cars matched.
all well documented recent sales with extensive image galleries had matching set ups.


1. Throttle body

Attached Image


early throttle body (StarBear car) nov 73

Attached Image

Attached Image


slightly later throttle body (wonkipop car) jan 74
part number stamping location altered.

Attached Image



2. Distributor and vac hose set up

Attached Image

Posted by: wonkipop Dec 25 2021, 09:06 PM

EXCEPTIONAL DATA 1

MYSTERY CAR

mr. b has documented this emission sticker.

EC-B USEPA conforming.

not california conforming.
no car was turned up with this sticker in survey/car sales documentation.

still to be determined.


Attached Image


image courtesy of Jeff Bowlsby.

EDIT - MAY 2024
mystery solved.
see pg 12 of this thread.
the USEPA only emissions sticker appears for the last month of 1974 1.8 L jet production in June 1974. An example was found that linked Vin and K number to the sticker on the car. examples of emission stickers for EC-B engined cars indicate the more usual pattern of being stated USEPA and California compliant for all months of production up until June 1974.

Posted by: wonkipop Dec 25 2021, 09:43 PM

EXCEPTIONAL DATA 2

paint stamp engine number EA 370.


Attached Image
Attached Image

stamp on an early 74 L-Jet 1.8 (01 NOV 73).
more on commencement of L Jet production later.
EA signifies development order.

Posted by: wonkipop Dec 25 2021, 10:12 PM

EXCEPTIONAL DATA 3

EC-A engined car (california/CARB conforming) sold new in Cincinatti OHIO (49 states).

Attached Image

Attached Image

Attached Image

this car VIN 6/74 was not sold until early october 1974.
well into the 75 MY.
75 MY 1.8s were available on sale from commencement of 75 MY in Aug/Sept.

one explanation is the car may have been specifically sought by the customer for 1 of 2 or both reasons.

a) cheaper deal on superseded model.
b) strong preference for earlier car without later collision bumpers.

a car may have been sourced from remaining 74 stock. that stock may have been found in california. nothing stopped a CARB conforming car from being sold in the 49 states. only 49 state cars were prohibited for new sales in california.

Posted by: wonkipop Dec 25 2021, 10:32 PM

A HYPOTHETICAL.

PAINT STAMP ENGINE NUMBER.

this is a guess at this stage.
the statistical sample of data confirmed is too small for any degree of certainty.
we only have examples of 1 or 2 cars in each case.

# 604 was found on two cars.
both EC-B.
neither car was fitted with a gauge pack/console from new or ordered with the gauge pack/console. (the pack was more normally an option for 2.0 L cars and part of their appearance group option package). the history of one of these cars is well documented and it remains with the second owner.

# 605 was found on one car.
EC-B
the car was fitted with the gauge /console from new.
the history of the car is known from new. it remains with the original owner.

#606 was found on one car.
EC-A
this car was not fitted with gauge/console when sold new.
the car history is known from new and remains with the original purchaser family.

#607 was found on two cars.
EC-A
only one car had sufficient documentation to determine that it was special ordered from the factory with an "app group" option (gauge/console). the car was tourist delivered to the original owner at the karmann factory in germany.

there is one distinguishing feature of 1.8 engines when fully assembled that sets them apart from 2.0 L engines.

1.8 engines came with a standard type second sump lid without provision for a temp
guage sensor and electrical connection unless it was ordered.

Attached Image
Attached Image
Attached Image

all 2.0 engines came with the different second sump lid with the inbuilt sensor and electrical connection.

Attached Image
Attached Image

it was a relatively simple matter to incorporate the gauge and console for the 2.0 either on the production line or at the dealer to suit customer preference.

it was more complex to incorporate gauges for the 1.8 as removal of the sump plate and opening of the sealed engine component with loss of oil was involved. esp so on the production line. (less so at the dealer).

if 1.8s were ordered with the exceptional and unusual option of guage and console this would have to have been allowed for on the production line.

this may have necessitated engine code stamps to ensure correct engine installation.

example of 74 1.8, no gauges/console. second sump lid plate is simple type.

Attached Image
Attached Image
Attached Image

example of 74 2.0, without appearance group option of guages/console.
second sump lid plate is temp sensor type even though gauges not fitted.

Attached Image
Attached Image
Attached Image


this pattern appears to continue for the 1975 MY

example of 75 1.8, no gauges/console. second sump lid plate is simple type.

Attached Image
Attached Image
Attached Image

example of 75 2.0, without appearance group option of gauges/console.
second sump lid plate is temp sensor type even though gauges not fitted.

Attached Image
Attached Image
Attached Image

the above examples are vgc and appear to be original cars.

there are two possible ways to test the hypothesis of paint stamp engine numbers further.

1. collect more data on 74 1.8 engines to get a greater statistical sample.


2, expand data collection to 75 1.8 L cars.

if the hypothesis is correct there will be 4 stamped numbers for 75 1.8 cars.
a number for 49 state cars (no gauges).
a number for 49 state cars (gauges)
a number for calif cars (no gauges)
a number for calif cars (gauges)

--------

further, if members with 73 cars were interested.
the guage/console option was on offer in 73.
a possibility is -

for EA engines.
a number for no guage cars.
a number for cars fitted with guages (from new from factory).

for EB engines
a number for no guage cars.
a number for cars fitted with guages (from new from factory).

= 4 numbers in total.


---------


for 2.0 L cars for 75/76 model years.
it looks to me like the only difference in the cars is whether 49 states or californian.
if the hypothesis is correct (and the only difference between 75/76 2.0 L engines is pollution equipment/specification) there will be two numbers for engine paint stamps for each of the the years.
one for 49 states.
one for california.
73/74 2.0 L cars will have one number for 49 states and california, no difference in emissions spec for those two years?


-----------

the exceptions to the above will be engines stamped with EA370 or possibly some other identifying stamp. those stamps appear to identify those engines with the early stage of an engine program connected with cars 73 and beyond. ie the discontinuation of the porsche 6 cylinder engine and the revamping of the engine range towards the 2.0 L and 1.8 L cars. EA370 is the project development # covering that program?


------------

EDIT MAY 2022

further information that has come to light.

for a standard 74 1.8 to be fitted with a console and temp gauge option, in addition to the temp sensor sump lid plate the fully assembled engine would require 3 metal brackets with a crimped end to locate and support the temp sensor wiring clear of the crankcase and oil cooler. these are shown listed 1, 2 & 3 in images below.

1 was incorporated into the original factory sump lid temp sensor housing.
2 was fixed using one of the oil filter housing bolts.
3 was fixed using one of the oil cooler support bracket bolts.

all were not easy to access/fit with the cast fan housing on the assembled engine.
only 914/2.0L engines came with the sump lid plate, temp sensor wire supports and temp sensor wire in place on the assembled engine.

all 914/2.0 L cars were fitted with a temp gauge, either a standard temp gauge in the left hand combo gauge in the instrument binnacle or optioned with the centre console and gauge pack. all 2.0 L engines came with the necessary lid, temp sensor wire and support brackets already fitted.

standard 914/1.8s were not fitted with a temp gauge as standard, but were fitted with a standard wiring loom with provision for a temp gauge. they lacked the temp sensor sump lid, temp sensor wire and support brackets on the assembled engine to make fitting the console a simple plug and play into the wiring loom in the upper engine bay.

914/1.8s could be special ordered with the centre console and gauge pack.
this would have required that the engine was assembled at the VW engine plant with the temp lid, temp sensor wire and brackets in place.

it seems highly likely that the pattern found in existing original cars of:
604 = EC-B engine/car without gauge console.
605 = EC-B engine/car with gauge console.
606 = EC-A engine/car without gauge console.
607 = EC-A engine/car with gauge console.
is the reason for the two different paint stamp engine tin numbers for each of the EC-A or EC-B variants.

608 has been established as the paint stamp number for the 74 AN european spec 1.8 twin carb engine. the car with the 608 engine was not fitted with gauge console.
it is highly likely that a 609 engine existed and this would have been the AN engine fitted to european 1.8s with the gauge console option.

Attached Image
Attached Image
Attached Image


engine tin paint stamp.
1974 1.8 / european spec AN.
held in the collection of the porsche museum germany.
engine stamp # = 608

Attached Image

Posted by: wonkipop Dec 25 2021, 11:21 PM

POST SCRIPT

A TROUBLED BIRTH FOR L - JET / THE FIRST EPA EMISSION CHEAT DEBACLE / THE FAILURE OF D-JET.

?

there was a lot going down in 1973.
none of it good news for VW.

primary background documents follow.



-----------------

1.

looking through factory workshop manual to find differences between EC-A/EC-B -
i came across the inception date of L jet. Nov 73.

Attached Image

L jet experts in the USA already knew this?
i didn't.
the introduction of the 914 1.8 did not co-incide with the start of the model year.


i read over the VIN# data base on this website.
what an asset. whoever decided to start that register - buy them a beer.
could not turn up a 74 1.8 before late oct/early nov 73.

these are the earliest that appear.

Attached Image

Attached Image


----------------

2.

The VW emissions cheat of 1973

EPA letter/report to US Justice Department 1973.

Attached Image
Attached Image
Attached Image
Attached Image
Attached Image
Attached Image

the letter (advisory circular) that was sent to all manufacturer's in 1972
referred to in EPA letter sent to Justice Dept above.

Attached Image
Attached Image
Attached Image
Attached Image


specific devices in question.
both cases were only models equipped with full auto transmission.
VW type 3 (fastbacks and squarebacks)
EGR was turned off by a switch in a VW type 3 when temp was below 68F (according to EPA).
VW type 2 (bus)
TCS (transmission controlled spark advance) was turned off by a switch below 68F (according to EPA).

it is not clear if this applied to only californian models or 49 states models.
CARB Executive Orders of 1973 list the type 3 F/A (fully auto) as equipped with EGR and the type 2 F/A as equiped with TCS.

extracts from a VW fuel injection manual describing the emissions equipment.

Attached Image
Attached Image

how EGR is controlled and switched off is explicit.
EGR is switched on above 65F.
car was clean in summer and dirty in winter.

how TCS operated is described above in terms of the type 3.
the type 3 did not have a temp sensor disconnecting the TCS.
the type 2 did.
the thermo switch would disconnect the transmission control that retarded spark in all the lower gears unless temp was above 65F.

without going into detail ----> basically VW could not make D jet cars work with fully automatic transmissions, pass emissions and be driveable.

Aftermath.

for 74MY there was only 1 fully automatic VW for sale in california.
the 1.8 L-jet engined VW 412.
the model arrived in August 73 for start of the MY.

VW dropped the F/A version of the bus for 1 year in california.
available in 73 and again in 75.
its not clear if you could buy a F/A bus in the 49 states.
(sales brochures said you could as a special option.)
the ED engine (type 4 1.8 L-jet) became available Jan 74 with manual trans.

Attached Image

D-jet engines were not used for any VW F/A model.
it would also appear no D-jet engines were used for 49 state F/A models.
models fitted with semi autos were available.
easy to see why. you take your foot off the gas when selecting gears.
S/A can be set up similar to a manual in terms of emissions control.

not so a slur box?

vw needed cars with fully automatic gearboxes for the USA market.

-----------

3.

the introduction of L jet engined cars.

The VW 412 gets L Jet first - Aug 73.

Attached Image
Attached Image

the VW 412 also continued to use the 1.7 EA engine in the 1974 MY
(use of the EA was discontinued for the 74 MY 914).

Attached Image
Attached Image
Attached Image
Attached Image

the EA engine was only available with M/T and only in 49 states.
the sole model 412 sold in california was the F/A 412 with an EC engine.
it is not clear if there were differences between the calif and 49 states F/A version.
the calif version was fitted with EGR (ref CARB executive order A-7-5).
the california version of the EC engine was called the EC-D.
the 49 states version may have been the EC-C (i have found no information on that).
VW could make a fully automatic car work with L-Jet EFI.

Likely supply of EC L-jet engines was prioritised for the 412 model from the start of MY 74. if not VW had no F/A large sedan or wagon available for sale in california or the 49 states.
Engines for 914s, on the information available appear to begin 2-3 months later in late Oct/early Nov 73. The 1.8 cars start rolling of the production line at that time.

In Jan 1974, the ED engine - bus version of the 1.8L type 4 fitted with L-jet commenced.
the L jet version is sold in california with M/T.

In march 1974 the opel manta GT/E fitted with L jet commenced.

The introduction of L jet is staged.
First across three VW models and then to other manufacturers.

The VW EC engine is the first engine to be fitted with L-jet.
The 1974 914 1.8 is the second car to be fitted with L-jet.

i have been mistaken for 30+ years claiming the 914 1.8 is the first car to be fitted with L jet.
though the system on the car is the first version of L jet. (ref part # on AFM).

Posted by: wonkipop Dec 26 2021, 12:38 AM

VAPOR EMISSIONS CONTROL SYSTEM.

(aka the charcoal canister or how it is plumbed).

this has been debated previously.

refer here.

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=347951

in summary owners of original condition 74 1.8s with the engine bay canister know it is plumbed in an arrangement contrary to some hose diagrams that have been published and in a manner contrary to 73 and earlier year 914s.

---------------

the events of 1973 concerning the EPA case cast some light on the VECS (vapor emission control system).

the design of the system incorporated in the 1970-73 914s is in principle the same as the system used by porsche for 911 models from 1969-73.

Attached Image

in 1973 for 1974-77 years porsche revised the system for its 911 models.

Attached Image


note - the element that is altered is that a different end of the can is connected to the fan feed line.

--------------------


the schematic layout of the 1974 VECS is shown in the emissions warranty for the 1974 914 model. this emissions warranty came with a 1974 1.8 model.

Attached Image
Attached Image

the plumbing of the 914 1.8 hoses is consistent with the update porsche carried out for its 911 models for 74 MY.


-----------------------


the changes to the VECS that porsche introduced for the 74 MY across its range brought the system into line with VW designs for the VECS that had been in place since 1969.

Attached Image
Attached Image
Attached Image
Attached Image


-------------------------


the original factory installed plumbing arrangement of the VECS in a 74 1.8 is characterised by an S-curved hose from the fan feed port on the fan housing to the lhs of the engine bay mounted charcoal canister. the rhs of the can is connected to the hose from the air cleaner and the fuel vapor line.

Attached Image
Attached Image

note - this is only known to apply to 1.8 cars with the engine bay canister location update.


----------------------------


the canister location update occurred between 20 Nov 73 and 28 Nov 73.
(refer schedule 2 at beginning of thread).
EDIT JUNE 2022. further example has come to light indicating changeover is either side of weekend 17/18 Nov 73.
refer page 2 of this thread for information/data.


cars before the update had the VECS cannister in the front trunk.
Attached Image

cars after the update had the canister in the engine bay.

Attached Image


note - it has not been established how the front trunk mounted canisters were plumbed.
the system may have conformed to the earlier porsche design for 69-73 MY cars.

EDIT MAY 2022 - further data has been obtained which clarifies the plumbing layouts for the front trunk mounted canisters and the engine bay mounted canisters.
This data has been entered on page 3 of this thread.
the frunk mounted canisters used the Porsche design earlier version of hose hookup dating from 1970 MY on. the engine bay canisters used the VW design for the hose hook up from approx Nov 20 1973 on.



----------------------------


1974 914 1.8 HOSE LAYOUTS.

the engine hose layouts by Pete Klager and published on the Pelican Parts website are the most accurate diagrams.

the diagrams are for the 1975 1.8 EC-b (california version).

Attached Image

note -

for the 1974 EC-B engine the EGR is deleted (along with T connection to dist-T/B vacuum advance line). the position of the charcoal can is on the rear bulkhead of the engine bay instead of next to the battery but with the plumbing arrangement shown.

for the 1974 EC-A engine as above for EC-B, but additionally the vacuum line connecting the dist-T/B advance line is disconnected at the T/B. the T/B either does not have a vac advance port or the port is capped with a seal. the hose from the advance port on the distributor is tucked under the distributor and left open.

this has also been previously explained by Dave Darling more than 10 years ago.
DD noted there were two versions of the hose layout for L-Jets.
at that time DD had not made a connection between the layouts and the emission stickers indicating either EC-A or EC-B or that the engines may have been sales market determined variations.

EDIT JUNE 2022
final hose layouts for 1974 EC-A/EC-B are posted on page 3 of this thread.



-------------

EC-A v EC-B

in principle it was (is) very simple to turn an EC-A engine into an EC-B engine.

simply connect the vacuum advance hose from the vac advance can on the distributor to the vac advance port on the throttle body (assuming the throttle body has a port).

and in reverse to alter an EC-B into an EC-A.

this may have been porsche and vw intention with the ambiguous emission sticker that stated both versions were USEPA and California conforming.

the adjustment may have been an easy matter for dealers to carry out (if the EC-A was fitted with a throttle body that had only a cap seal on the port).

it may have been a strategy to provide flexibility in terms of stocks of cars available for sale across the USA including California. given the delayed introduction of the 1.8 which did not it appears commence production until Nov 1973.

it is unclear how this would have worked in terms of annual emissions tests on vehicles.
CARB documentation implies that testers would technically have only had approval for EC-A stickered cars.

?

Posted by: wonkipop Dec 26 2021, 04:02 PM

revising comments welcome.

further documented 1.8 information welcome.
esp information re paint stamp numbers on engines.

beerchug.gif

Posted by: StarBear Dec 26 2021, 08:07 PM

Destined to be a classic (though imho it already is)!
Well done mr @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=24231 !
first.gif

Posted by: wonkipop Dec 27 2021, 04:54 PM

post script

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=10753

of course the 1.8 is a classic.
the only 4 cylinder 914 in the porsche museum. rolleyes.gif

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=24260
a treat for you. beerchug.gif

along the way researching stumbled on a high res image of engine in 74 1.8 in porsche museum.
twin carb AN.

hoped i might be able to read a paint stamp # on it, but no cigar.
other interesting details.

tune up sticker = advance hose only/set timing with hose on.
oil filler cap as per earlier 1.7 EA engine, not like the L jet cap.

might write to the porsche museum and see if i ask nice enough if they can tell us if it does have a painted # on the tin/what it is.
if my guess about numbers is right there were 2 for AN in 74.
could be either 608/609 or 602/603? its a no gauge/console car.

Attached Image
Attached Image
Attached Image

Posted by: Van B Dec 29 2021, 02:00 PM

Anyone else notice that hellhole rust on the museum car lol?!
I agree that this will be a lasting resource for understanding the peculiarities of this very first L-Jet that defined the next 20yrs of German cars.

Posted by: wonkipop Dec 29 2021, 03:57 PM

QUOTE(Van B @ Dec 29 2021, 02:00 PM) *

Anyone else notice that hellhole rust on the museum car lol?!


laugh.gif bubbling up there with no ECU to hide it.


-----

did an engine count from parts catalogue for 75 euro 1.8s.
101 made. (engine was not in anything else VW sold that year - easy to do the numbers).

couldn't do same for 74 - engine shared with some euro VW 412s.
but its maybe not much different.

makes a 75 euro 914 1.8 rarer than LEs? stirthepot.gif

Posted by: Van B Dec 29 2021, 07:26 PM

Was there any car in the US that got the AN or AT series engine? When rebuild time comes for my motor, my one change will be the higher compression pistons.

Posted by: wonkipop Dec 29 2021, 07:46 PM

QUOTE(Van B @ Dec 29 2021, 07:26 PM) *

Was there any car in the US that got the AN or AT series engine? When rebuild time comes for my motor, my one change will be the higher compression pistons.


no. AN not sold in USA.

not a huge number of AN made.
seems 8,798 engines in 74 shared between euro 412s and 914s.
and 101 engines in 75 solely in euro 914s.

don't know about AT - will have to look it up. bus engine?

Posted by: Van B Dec 29 2021, 10:54 PM

Well, really the point is to find high compression 1.8 pistons. If that few were made, I’m sure they’re NLA anyway.
I’ll just cross that bridge when I get there.

Posted by: wonkipop Dec 30 2021, 05:15 PM

QUOTE(Van B @ Dec 29 2021, 10:54 PM) *

Well, really the point is to find high compression 1.8 pistons. If that few were made, I’m sure they’re NLA anyway.
I’ll just cross that bridge when I get there.


they even made magnesium engine cases for early 411s.
these are engine numbers beginning with VO.
not sure what they are like and its only early engines around 1968 as far as i can tell.
they switched to aluminium after that.
these were only european sold cars that had magnesium cases.
much lighter.
but maybe not as strong.

i'm sure you can get the domed european pistons.
maybe not NOS ones but maybe you can.
all the euro motors for 411 and 412s were high compression.
not just the 1800 twin carb version.
there was a high compression L jet 1800 in europe too.
maybe that is the one to find out about Van?
although it could have been set up to work with an auto box.
i can't find out enough info on those 412s.
very obscure and a lot of it is buried and lost to time.
the fan base for 412s is a very small group of enthusiasts and to some extent its a forgotten car. (though i do like the look of the 412 variants where they kind of got the shape and proportions right).
they sold a lot more 1800 twin carb 412s in europe than 914s with the same motor.

also there would be aftermarket domed pistions?

i'm wondering if the heads were different in europe on the 1800s.
but at present i can't work that out.

they ran on 98 RON high octane.

the 1800 twin carb had a fair bit of power. 85 hp. lol-2.gif av-943.gif lol-2.gif
not that far short of the last version of the smog-ed 2.0 in USA at 88 hp. av-943.gif lol-2.gif hissyfit.gif

driving-girl.gif driving.gif

Posted by: JeffBowlsby Dec 31 2021, 10:25 AM

AN engine in a factory 1974 914 GT (European-market 914 CanAm car). Only car I have documentation of with this engine, and my only photo of it.

VIN 4742916340 on the 914 Can Am Car Registry.




Attached image(s)
Attached Image

Posted by: wonkipop Dec 31 2021, 07:04 PM

^

wow.

original motor?

Posted by: wonkipop Jan 25 2022, 06:12 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=10753

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=104

additional info of interest.

i might be very close to pinpointing date (production week/even day) the charcoal can switches over. has this been done and if so is info in agreement?

two cars.

1)
member Ferg has vin # 4742909104. Ferg states it had the can in the frunk on the evidence. his post is attached below.

Attached Image


2)
found a car advertised for sale in 2012. excellent original condition 1.8.
vin # 4742909096.
shows evidence of having originally had a front trunk cannister that has been removed.
clip and mounting point intact on tank.

Attached Image
Attached Image
Attached Image
Attached Image


https://www.early911sregistry.org/forums/showthread.php?99313-classicdriver-com-914-first-paint-25t-mls-time-capsule-service-book-EUR-44-000

the cars are 8 vin numbers apart.
neither are listed with a karmann#.
however the register on this site lists vin # 09098 as k # 4729590 = tuesday 20 Nov. 73.


Attached Image

this puts the date for the changeover at week 47 of 1973.
mon nov 19 - friday nov 23.
both these cars above are likely commenced on the same day (tues 20 Nov).

-----
StarBears car is a week 48 car and has the engine bay can.
R Rietman's car is a week 46 car and has the frunk can.

----------

EDIT - JUNE 29 2022

additional data point found.
VIN 4742908765.
K plate production # unknown.
poor condition abandoned 74 1.8 with original engine bay charcoal can intact.

Attached Image
Attached Image

using 914world Vin data base - closest VIN with K # recorded =
VIN 4742908715 K # 4649581 = 81st car commenced thursday 15th Nov 1973.

4742908765 = 50 cars after. given average daily production was around 100 cars, likely this was commenced the day after on friday 16th Nov 1973.
this is earlier than the Tuesday 20 Nov cars above this supports conclusion there is some mixing of chassis numbers in chronological order at the introduction of the charcoal cannister update.

if karmann numbers were available for cars that have been pinpointed a more precise date could be determined.

update information indicates the change is occurring either side of the weekend 17/18 Nov 1973. with at least one car likely on the friday 16 Nov with engine bay can and two cars on Tuesday Nov 20 with a frunk can.

Posted by: StarBear Jan 25 2022, 06:39 PM

Yep, I'm convinced. Probably (?) not a single date as you said, all cars weren't produced/finished in precise sequence. Wonder, though, why the change not at the MY beginning - parts supply availability? using up existing parts inventory (my bet)? dry.gif

Posted by: JeffBowlsby Jan 25 2022, 07:15 PM

Nice detective work. I know of nothing in conflict with that.

Posted by: wonkipop Jan 25 2022, 07:24 PM

QUOTE(StarBear @ Jan 25 2022, 06:39 PM) *

Yep, I'm convinced. Probably (?) not a single date as you said, all cars weren't produced/finished in precise sequence. Wonder, though, why the change not at the MY beginning - parts supply availability? using up existing parts inventory (my bet)? dry.gif


yep. they would be using up inventory of pressed panels.
the engine bay rear firewall has a little pressed indentation with the drilled hole to mount the cannister and the front firewall area no longer has the holes for the hoses to a front mounted can. they would have been using up the panels they had before moving on.

an ideal date for factory purposes would have been a monday.
i assume they would have been counting stock and fine turning scheduling date to remaining stocks. given what i found above i'd call it as that fell on a tuesday.

i believe the change in position of the can is a deliberate move to alter the whole system and to ensure that previous practices on hose hook ups are relearnt afresh.
as you know i am sticking to my view that the can hook up is reversed with the charcoal can in the engine bay. all the evidence says so including our cars which were/are in original condition. also they changed the 911s in 74. a similar deliberate move was made and the cans were moved to the rear of 911s at that time as well as altering the hose connection hook up. as to why not the start of the model year, the answer is connected to the late commencement of production of 1.8s. its got something to do with coming under scrutiny of the EPA for cheat devices. you can bet your life that the EPA put VW under the microscope in mid 73 and examined all their emission devices. they would have went through everything with a fine tooth and comb.

all the evidence (all of it reputable factory literature) indicates VW plumbed up their evap system the way it is done on engine bay can 914s from nov 73. VW had been doing it that way on their cars since 1970. only the 914 (and the 911) were plumbed up the opposite way up to MY 74. you can bet your life the EPA would have picked up that discrepancy because the 914 was essentially a VW model with a VW engine. i think what happened is that VW and porsche at that point brought their emission systems into consistency across the range. (to note porsche were using VW evap system components on the 911 lock stock and barrel). it would have been a bit confusing argueing it worked either way? the 914 had the same set up as the 911 (a porsche design) until that moment in 1973 when it changed over.

be interesting to know the exact date when porsche changed it over on 911s.
my bet is on around about the same time, part way into MY 74.
and as a result of EPA negotiations.


a further clue to this would be original glove box manuals that came with the cars new.
i would expect all the early 74 MY 2.0L cars to have had a emissions warranty booklet that reflected the other plumbing set up of earlier cars.

i would expect all 1.8s after the change to have the emission warranty like the one i have which correctly shows the change in the plumbing.

i would expect all the 2.0s that come after feb 74 to also have that emission warranty booklet that would be like the one i have with my 1.8 (engine bay can).

the check would have to be done with emission warranties that were known to have come with the car new.

part of the problem with restored cars and reprint material or booklets purchased separately is that fine grain of detail gets lost.

Posted by: wonkipop Jan 25 2022, 07:51 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=10753
production looks to go like this for 74MY cars.

commenced week 33 (aug 13 1973).

from week 33 to week 43 - exclusively 2.0L cars (at least for USA market).
(aug 73 to very late oct 73). it is possible that euro market 1,.8s were made in this period.

from end of week 43 - to at minimum week 04/05 74 (end of jan.start of feb 74) production is purely 1.8s.

after that production of 1.8s and 2.0s is more mixed in batches that are smaller in duration until end of model year.

refer members vin register here and other information affirming 1.8 production does not start until beginning of nov 73.

ideally the timing of the cannister would have been to match it to changing over to 1.8 production? but stocks of earlier panel pressings did not exactly co-incide?

nevertheless there will be two distinct batches of 74MY 2.0 L cars.
those made in 73 will have the can in the frunk.
those in 74 will have the can in the engine bay.
mr. b will know that stuff for sure.

and the 1.8s nearly all have the can in the engine bay and were intended to be so.
they are in between those two batches of 2.0 L cars.
the first 3-4 weeks of 1.8s have it in the frunk to use up the stocks of body panel pressings.
they would have been very keen to get those 1.8s rolling down the line as soon as the engines became available as these were the mass market car they shifted in the greatest numbers.


an interesting further check on this would be the 74 1.8 euro spec held in the porsche museum.need a vin # and a production date. see if it predates 1.8 USA spec cars and if so does it have a can in the frunk/or engine bay conforming to above dates switchover.
(though i do not think euro cars ever had evap system in those years?).
i know that japan cars had it and i know that because the australian design regulations required evap from 74 on (same as japan) that cut off private importation of 914s into australia. the last to come in via the uk were 73 models.

Posted by: L-Jet914 Feb 1 2022, 11:17 PM

What's interesting is when I replaced my ignition rotor, it had the standard rotor inside the distributor instead of the rpm limiting one. So I put the regular rotor in there as I thought it was what it came with.

Posted by: wonkipop Feb 2 2022, 04:12 PM

QUOTE(L-Jet914 @ Feb 1 2022, 11:17 PM) *

What's interesting is when I replaced my ignition rotor, it had the standard rotor inside the distributor instead of the rpm limiting one. So I put the regular rotor in there as I thought it was what it came with.


hi L-JET914.

the reason for the rev limiting rotor in most of the cars was to protect from over-revving.
don't think there is anything else to them. its not to do with emissions.

they switched to a fuel cut off instead in 75 cal to protect the exhaust catalyser in 75 cal cars. it was not thought to be good to be dumping large amounts of unburnt fuel into the cat when the rotor cut ignition. bad for the cat. side benefit was that the fuel cut off did help with emissions. did not dump hydrocarbons. did not need the speed limited rotor.

neither really protect the engine on a missed shift or downshift.
it will still overspin.

i wouldn't worry about it.
i am not even sure you can buy a replacement rev limiting rotor anymore.
i haven't looked into it. i've still got one in mine. they are very large.

-----

i saw your other inquiry in the other thread. i think Dave P was trying to work out when they stopped stamping karmann numbers in the rear trunk of 914s and went to rivetted plates in front trunk. i knew from our survey that your car was in the vicinity he was looking at to pinpoint the change.

Posted by: Van B Feb 20 2022, 11:21 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=24231
Here’s another one for the records… this thing is a prize!
https://www.marshallgoldmanoh.com/used-vehicle-1974-porsche-914-c-911/

Posted by: wonkipop Feb 21 2022, 03:39 AM

QUOTE(Van B @ Feb 20 2022, 11:21 PM) *

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=24231
Here’s another one for the records… this thing is a prize!
https://www.marshallgoldmanoh.com/used-vehicle-1974-porsche-914-c-911/


yep we got that one on our list already.
its the sister to your car mate.
built on a thursday and yours was the following monday.
same color?

its a dead split for mine spec wise.
except mine is phoenix red with a brown interior - the jaffa.
and i got drop out stripes instead of the positive side graphics.
but apart from that. same car.
i reckon they just churned them out to one spec for the USA pretty much.
like henry ford.
think that is why i like 914s. model t of sportscars.
and just as innovative as HF was with the T and every bit as sensible.


Posted by: Van B Feb 21 2022, 10:59 AM

I wonder what it sold for? And do you know if the owner is a forum member?
For sure the underside of that car shows the benefit of the zeibart coating applied by the first owner of my car. I would say we’re it not for a low budget mechanic and painter, my car would rival the condition of that one.

Only a hunch, but I suspect you’re right that the 1.8 was meant to hit a price point in the US market. While we were entering the malaise era of cars in the US around this time, they were still making far more power than even the 2.0.


Posted by: wonkipop Feb 21 2022, 03:41 PM

QUOTE(Van B @ Feb 21 2022, 10:59 AM) *

I would say we’re it not for a low budget mechanic and painter, my car would rival the condition of that one.



you got yourself a good car then if its up to that one.
an awful lot of 1.8s bit the dust along the way.
back in the late 80s when i was buying mine not a lot of folks were interested in them.
generally seen as troublesome injection/lowly model. lowest on lists of most desirable.
i figured it out doing my shopping in chicago. they all seemed to have anti roll bars and they all seemed to be in some kind of version of appearance group spec.

yellow one looked very very clean.
perhaps a little surface corrosion on the underside.
not sure when it was sold. possibly pre recent hikes in value.
someone probably got thenselves a real bargain.
fortunately at this point in time it will continue to be preserved?
rather than hopped up to a 2 or converted into a six.

mine is dealer undercoated.
that can be a good thing and a bad thing.
in my case it has been a good thing.
it only did 2 winters i was told by original owner.
the undercoating did its job and nothing got in behind it.


nice thing about yellow car - confirms there was a colored hose on the decel valve.
red brown color.
hoses i pulled off mine 2 years ago and renewed had the same brown red hose.

a red hose and a green vac retard line from the dist to t/b.
rest were grey/black color.
i have retained the green hose on the dist.



Attached Image

hoses i pulled off my car.

Attached Image

Posted by: wonkipop Feb 22 2022, 10:25 AM

also that yellow car is one more confirmation that porsche did indeed change the plumbing to the charcoal can with the move to the engine bay.

got the same S curve hose from the fan to the single nozzle end of charcoal can as mine (and starbear). thare have been some inaccurate hose diagrams floating around for 1.8s for years that have had that wrong. not that it matters a huge amount i would think as the whole charcoal can is a bit of a joke when you look closely at it and how it works.
though mine has been working beautifully for at least a year now. it spent the first 12 months or so after i reactivated the car from its long sleep stinking up after a week or so.
but now. no stink. its been getting enough drives over a long enough distance to purge.
i guess the charcoal is still in good shape in mine?

Posted by: Racer Feb 22 2022, 02:28 PM

What a rather well documented thread.

Question.. what engine code was given the Euro 1.8 Carbed engine? EC-A or EC-B? or were those motor pulled out of what ever production line there was and simply had carbs slapped on the top vs FI ? What kind of emmissions, if any, did Europe require for the carbed 1.8's?

Posted by: wonkipop Feb 22 2022, 04:21 PM

QUOTE(Racer @ Feb 22 2022, 02:28 PM) *

What a rather well documented thread.

Question.. what engine code was given the Euro 1.8 Carbed engine? EC-A or EC-B? or were those motor pulled out of what ever production line there was and simply had carbs slapped on the top vs FI ? What kind of emmissions, if any, did Europe require for the carbed 1.8's?


different internals. higher compression pistons to run on higher octane leaded fuel.
internationally only the USA introduced unleaded fuel during the early 70s.
early unleaded fuel had lower octane levels than leaded.
lower compression ratios for the USA.

europe still had higher octane leaded fuel = compression ratio could be 8.6:1.
higher horsepower than USA EC engines - 85hp v 76 hp.

different crankcase vent system to USA 1.8s - appears to use a filler cap set up similar to earlier D Jet EFI. no charcoal can vapor emission as far as i can work out.
may have had different camshaft but don't know for sure.
in terms of emissions all they would have had was a crankcase vapor system that fed fumes into the aircleaner.

engine serial numbers begin with AN0 - engine code is AN.
unsure if it had a hyphen and letter to signify it was a sub type of AN.

paint stamp number on engine tin is different to USA EC engines.

carbies were used on euro 1.8s to keep cost of car down and to simplify servicing?
if it had been produced with EFI suspect it might have made even more horsepower than 85hp it had with carbs. the carbs were not anything special. usual VW solex carbs.

Posted by: Van B Feb 25 2022, 11:56 AM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=24231
I remember you saying that about the sway bars before. But mine did not have them... still doesn't.

Personally, I kinda like it. Since this car isn't fast, that roll into the corners makes the drives more fun lol!

Posted by: wonkipop Feb 25 2022, 08:40 PM

QUOTE(Van B @ Feb 25 2022, 11:56 AM) *

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=24231
I remember you saying that about the sway bars before. But mine did not have them... still doesn't.

Personally, I kinda like it. Since this car isn't fast, that roll into the corners makes the drives more fun lol!


my recollection is from the late 80s when i bought mine.
at the time i was trying to chase a 2.0 (as was everyone).
the late 80s was a time there was actually a bit of surge of interest in 914s.
turned out to be a false dawn.
but prices were rising.
and i found i did not have enough $ to manage to get a good one.

we are talking these kinds of dollars.
i found one good six in chicago. tangerine. steelies+ hubcaps. $15K from memory but maybe it was more - $23K bit fuzzy on that as i only ever found one for sale.
73-74 2.0s in very good original condition. low miles. $9-10K and some even higher.
i had about $6K in my pocket, i had just finished grad school.
i stumbled into a little porsche workshop there somewhere near lincoln park where i lived. bunch of 356s, karmann ghias and 914s were in there.
and i talked to the main guy there and asked him if he knew where there might be some good 2.0s for sale to suit my budget.
he owned a 914 and knew plenty.

he was the one with the advice to look at a 74 1.8.
said don't listen tot he nay sayers, they are good cars.
and gave me the info that most of them were speced up standard to a high level.
with roll bars, a kind of apperance group package (with a bin console, not guages) etc.

sure enough when i started concentrating on 1.8s for sale, most of them were like that.
with the roll bars etc.

in the end i found a good one just north of chicago in wisconsin.
flat bedded it to his shop and he got it on the road for me.
it had been sitting for about 5 years.

so that is where i got the info on the spec set up for most 74 1.8s from.
story from a mechanic who knew the cars and dealt with a lot of them in chicago at that time.

the sway bars really helped it when it had its original shocks fitted.
they were boges and quite soft for comfort.
so the car would have rolled a lot more without the sway bars.
now i have bilsteins and its a lot firmer.

what shocks does your car run?

Posted by: Van B Feb 27 2022, 11:14 PM

Its got some PoS KYB on the rear and who knows what’s on the front..old and dirty. I noticed when I got it home that the right rear sags… and like a fool I planned to make a chassis overhaul my first project.

Posted by: wonkipop Feb 28 2022, 02:15 AM

QUOTE(Van B @ Feb 27 2022, 11:14 PM) *

Its got some PoS KYB on the rear and who knows what’s on the front..old and dirty. I noticed when I got it home that the right rear sags… and like a fool I planned to make a chassis overhaul my first project.


i noticed that photo of your hauling rig and the car on it.

chrome bumpers. nice. you got one over me. the jaffa has black painted night curfew look. ode to the wobbling goblin?

kyb probably better than bombed out boges.

mine used to sag very slightly right rear too. i could just pick it.

springs go weak. or are unequally mounted.
fixed it all with the suspension rebuild/recommission. sits level now.
took everything apart. front and rear. rebushed etc.
did not replace original rear springs. we just set them up equally and it worked.

Posted by: StarBear Mar 24 2022, 06:53 AM

Mine has the appearance group, sway bars and the black bumper panels (see avatar). Peppy but no barn burner for sure - not enough horsepower for that but out cornered my friend’s GTO when rat racing in an office complex off hours MANY years ago. biggrin.gif

Posted by: wonkipop Mar 27 2022, 01:37 AM

for @Van B

came across this image in obscure part of vw museum website.

AN engine in a 74 VW 412 in collection. one of their company cars.
did 185,000k. they looked after their own staff cars. engine is real clean.
same spec as 914 version. 85 hp.

only vac advance distributor. no emissions bureau in europe.
just autobahns you had to go as fast as you could on, even in a VW.

dual carb linkage looks real solid. if you have ever owned a twin carb type 3 - this is the carb linkage you were hoping for on that car but never got. headbang.gif

Attached Image

Posted by: wonkipop May 22 2022, 01:03 PM

VAPOR EMISSION CONTROL SYSTEM

update information.

the emission warranty booklets included with cars when sold new provide the data that settles questions around the update change to the arrangement of the hoses to the charcoal canister that occur in 74 model year.

1.
1973 emissions warranty.
schematic diagram shown in booklet conforms to porsche design for hose hook up from 1970 model year on and agrees with diagrams in the factory workshop manual.
canister location front trunk.
canister type = metal, then plastic.
(source for diagram page - jeff bowlsby).

Attached Image
Attached Image


2.
1974 emissions warranty.
schematic diagram conforms to porsche design for hose hook up.
canister location = front trunk.
canister type = plastic.
emissions warranty dated VIII/73 = August 1973 (commencement of 74 MY production).
of note - emissions warranty is unique in applying only to 2.0L on cover.
this confirms that for 74 MY only 2.0 L cars were produced for the USA market from Aug to late Oct 1973 - 1.8 L cars commence production from late Oct/early Nov 1973.

Attached Image
Attached Image
Attached Image


3.
1974 emission warranty.
schematic diagram conforms to porsche design for hose hook up.
canister location = front trunk.
canister type - plastic.
emissions warranty dated X/1973 = October 1973.
this emissions warranty applies to the first batch of 1.8 L cars that are produced from late Oct 1973 until Nov 20 1973. For a period of approx 3 weeks 1.8 L cars are produced with front trunk mounted cans.
note - cover now includes both models, 2.0L and 1.8L as per all previous MY 914 emissions warranties.

Attached Image
Attached Image
Attached Image


4.
1974 emissions warranty.
schematic diagram is altered and hose hook up to canister conforms to VW design for all VW USA models since 1970. fan bleed hose and air cleaner intake hose alter positions on the can.
canister location = rear wall of engine bay.
canister type = plastic.
emissions warranty dated XI 1973 = November 1973.
this emissions warranty applies to the 1.8 L cars produced after Nov 20 1973 with the canister position revised to the engine bay location.
(the emissions warranty came with a car produced late Jan 1974).

Attached Image
Attached Image
Attached Image


5.
1974 emissions warranty.
as per #4.
(the emissions warranty came with a 1.8L model produced in April 1974).
the XI/73 emissions warranty is used through to the end of 74 MY production covering 1.8L and 2.0L models.

Attached Image
Attached Image
Attached Image


6.
1975 emissions warranty.
no examples of 1975 emissions warranties were submitted by members.
data will be posted if available in future.
canister location = engine bay position 2 (battery tray mount).
canister type = plastic.
EDIT SEPT 2023 - 2 examples of 75 emissions warranty submitted.
(both from 1.8) warranty dated VII/74 (July 74 - commencement of 75 production).

Attached Image
Attached Image

Attached Image
Attached Image
Attached Image
Attached Image
Attached Image
Attached Image

schematic shows a hook up consistent with with 1974 cars post Nov 1973 using VW design.
canister position = engine bay position 2 (battery tray mount).
canister type = plastic.


7.
1976 emissions warranty.
the separate emissions warranty booklet appears to have been deleted in 1976 and the warranty incorporated into the main glovebox owners operating manual.
note - only 2.0L cars produced for 76 MY.
schematic diagram shows a hose hook up consistent with 1974 cars post Nov 20 1973 using VW design.
canister location = engine bay position 2 (battery tray mount).
canister type = plastic.

Attached Image
Attached Image


--------

Front Trunk Mount.
Plastic Cannister.

applies:
early 74 2.0L cars produced from August 73 to late Oct 73.
74 1.8L cars produced from late Oct 73 - 20 Nov 1973.
fan feed hose connected to end of canister with vapor line.
air cleaner intake feed hose connected to opposite end of canister.

Attached Image
Attached Image


Engine Bay Mount (rear firewall)
Plastic Canister.

applies:
all 1974 MY 1.8L cars produced post Nov 20 1973 to end of model year.
possibly all 2.0L cars produced post Jan 1974 when 2.0L production resumes -
this data has not been confirmed and was not part of 1.8 L-Jet research - however the emissions warranty would appear to indicate 2.0 L cars are consistent with 1.8 L cars after the change to engine bay canister location.

air cleaner intake hose connected to end of canister with vapor line.
fan feed hose connected to opposite end of canister.
of note - criss cross layout of fan feed and aircleaner intake hoses in 1.8 L cars.

EDIT - JUNE 29 2022

refer page 2 of this thread. locating date of canister location changeover.
an example has been located with a probable production date commencement of Friday Nov 16 1973. the changeover seems centred around the weekend 17/18 Nov 1973.
the cars are not necessarily chronologically arranged in terms of Vin numbers during this changeover. so some frunk can cars may have been completed after engine bay can cars. the date however would be appear to be located at the very end of week 46 and the commencement of week 47 production in 1973.


Attached Image
Attached Image
Attached Image



EDIT SEPT 2023.
original condition 1975 1.8 (49 states car) showing mounting of canister in battery location with correct hose connections - matching schematic in emissions warranty booklet.

Attached Image
Attached Image



this information is not intended to offer technical explanation for the operation of the vapor emissions systems.
the information is data that has been confirmed and shows the system was changed.
there have been many discussions on this forum as to how this system works.
what has not been commented on in previous discussion is that Porsche were designing the system in 1970 with provision for a major vapor load after shutdown from a twin 3 barrel carburettor engine in the 914/6 and 911. VW were designing a system for either a much smaller vapor load from a single carburettor (beetles), or in some cases a twin single barrel carb set up on some buses, but by and large an EFI system with vapor load only from the fuel tank.
After 1973 Porsche cease to sell carburettor variants of their engine in the USA.
This likely explains the update to using the VW arrangement after that time.

updated vac hose layout diagrams for 1974 L jet cars to follow at a later date.
covering EC-A/EC-B throttle body to distributor vac hose hookup variations and
vapor emission hose hook up variations.

Posted by: Van B May 25 2022, 09:06 AM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=24231
My car was not a frunk can. It is a rear firewall car with the OE stud and everything. I can also see, thanks to the original tank, that at no point was an evap can ever mounted there.

Posted by: wonkipop May 25 2022, 05:02 PM

QUOTE(Van B @ May 25 2022, 09:06 AM) *

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=24231
My car was not a frunk can. It is a rear firewall car with the OE stud and everything. I can also see, thanks to the original tank, that at no point was an evap can ever mounted there.


i know @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=26011 .

two possibilities.
given when your car was made (dec 73).

1. cars with early engine bay cans could have got frunk can emission booklets until printed stocks of emission booklets were used up or if the emissions warranties were not withdrawn from stocks it got included with the car, or stocks of Nov edition had not arrived from printers for inclusion.

2. PO of your car replaced a missing emissions warranty with a new one and its not the one that came with the car. StarBear has done that for instance - his emissions warranty did not come with the car.

its probably #1.

given that you have a december 73 made car.
and we know there is a november edition warranty that replaced or superseded oct version. by rights your car should have come with a later nov edition warranty?
common sense says that.

we don't even really know where and when they put the warranties in the car.
did they do it at the factory and slip it in the glove box?
did they do it at the VW North America warehouses after the cars got to the USA?
did they do it at the dealer and they just had boxes of warranties to fill out and drop into the cars?

my guess would be that the warranties get included with the car close to the final point of sale. if nothing else for security.

its not hard to imagine a dealer with an out of date box of warranties not keeping up with things and you get these kinds of overlaps. esp so where there is a quick sequence of revising editions.

that would be my explanation.

what we do know is there was an Oct edition, thanks to the one you have.
and we know that there is a month worth of frunk can 1.8s that ends Nov 20 1973.
and after that there is a Nov edition and it goes to the end of 74MY and after Nov 20 there is an engine bay can and it goes to the end of 74MY.

and the two editions one month after the other track the change in the system and it accords with the change in components in the cars.

beerchug.gif

Posted by: Van B May 25 2022, 05:45 PM

Well, it may be inductive reasoning, but given the stack of records I have, I doubt my copy is a replacement. In other words, I am confident that when the orig owner took delivery, this was the book.

As far as the other aspects you mentioned. I’ll probably live the rest of my life not knowing the answer lol!

Posted by: wonkipop May 25 2022, 07:20 PM

QUOTE(Van B @ May 25 2022, 05:45 PM) *

Well, it may be inductive reasoning, but given the stack of records I have, I doubt my copy is a replacement. In other words, I am confident that when the orig owner took delivery, this was the book.

As far as the other aspects you mentioned. I’ll probably live the rest of my life not knowing the answer lol!



thats right @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=26011 .
it is inductive reasoning on my part based on what evidence we have.
thats all it is. its about as close as you can get based on what we popped up.

but......we did get the evidence - more than anyone has been able to collect before-hand.

at least we are no longer dealing with previous assertions and non factory diagrams that assert the engine bay can cars had the same plumbing as earlier model year and 74 cars with frunk cans. we know something happened and we know it was changed. and i pretty much pinpointed that production date when the frunk cans change to engine bay cans. i'm 99% on that one with the examples i found that got within 8 karmann numbers of each other. so that is very reasonably reliable info. and we know the emissions warranty changes from one edition to another over that same time period.
so none of the reasoning is out of whack.

your car is in the smudgy territory in between that lasts a month or two where it becomes an administrative act in the sales chain as to how the warranties are actually included with the car.

as to why its got an oct dated edition warranty with a post Nov 20 engine bay layout i can only guess at some explanations. i tend to think its explanation 1 which is its the warranty that came with the car and because we don't know how and when warranties were included, it is open to the possibility that an older warranty is included with a newer car. i include the other explanation because thats also true 50 years on.
we have people restoring cars and seeking documents missing from the car they have restored. thats why emissions warranties are for sale on ebay. we now know as a result of this research thats a fraught exercise for a 74 MY car, because there were at least three of these warranties throughout the model year and those three different warranties apply to different variations of the car. its all tricky stuff. but at minimum the conversation has now been moved past the blanket assertion that there was one way only that the hoses were hooked up and anything else is wrong. that notion can now be refuted.

it would have been nice to have someone volunteer a 75 emissions warranty.
its pretty clear from engine bay photos of original cars that the battery tray mount cans were hooked up in a way that matched the 74 engine bay cars as well.

i think the big area of interest is for owners of 74 2.0 L models.
i'm not sure its ever been raised before but it does look extremely likely to me there is one hook up for the earlier 74 2.0L with the frunk can and another for the later 74 2.0L with the engine bay can. thats a matter for those with an interest in restoring 74 2.0L and a bit of information they need to resolve.

if you were not a member of this website we probably wouldn't even know there was an Oct edition of that warranty! we probably still would all be going around in circles.
beerchug.gif at least we got to something that approaches logic and filled in the big gaps in explaining things.

in the end i am in the same position as you. i know the emissions warranty i have came with the car and i know the hoses in the layout they were in was also original. i've owned it since 89 and am the second owner. so its nice to finally know i was right about the car and those telling me the hoses were incorrectly plumbed were straight out wrong.
or suggestions that the emissions warranty was a misprint were a little off the mark.
its amazing after 50 years since the cars were made that this bit of detail seems to have slipped past people and been forgotten and lost.

Posted by: JeffBowlsby May 26 2022, 08:52 PM

Wonk,

You deserve an award for this charcoal can research, it’s well documented and clearly presented.

Can’t speak for others but changing the airflow direction thru the can, especially knowing how the can is actually constructed without the long internal supply tube as depicted in the booklets basically creates a short circuit nearly eliminating the intent and actual functional efficiency of the system.

Don’t understand the factory logic for the change. What did they know that is not obvious to us? Did they not see the internal plumbing within the can? I’m inclined to keep with the early air hose routing scheme because it seems like the best technical solution.

Posted by: wonkipop May 27 2022, 03:53 AM

QUOTE(JeffBowlsby @ May 26 2022, 08:52 PM) *

Wonk,

You deserve an award for this charcoal can research, it’s well documented and clearly presented.

Can’t speak for others but changing the airflow direction thru the can, especially knowing how the can is actually constructed without the long internal supply tube as depicted in the booklets basically creates a short circuit nearly eliminating the intent and actual functional efficiency of the system.

Don’t understand the factory logic for the change. What did they know that is not obvious to us? Did they not see the internal plumbing within the can? I’m inclined to keep with the early air hose routing scheme because it seems like the best technical solution.


thanks mr b.

i'm not even going to attempt to explain the function of the cans.

only thing i can think of is- something to do with carbs when it comes to why porsche did it the way they did starting in 1970, using the exact same components as VW.
........don't ask me to explain why. confused24.gif
i'm just a disinterested historian with an interest in my 1.8 L jet. smile.gif beerchug.gif

Posted by: wonkipop May 28 2022, 01:34 AM

QUOTE(JeffBowlsby @ May 26 2022, 08:52 PM) *

Wonk,

You deserve an award for this charcoal can research, it’s well documented and clearly presented.

Can’t speak for others but changing the airflow direction thru the can, especially knowing how the can is actually constructed without the long internal supply tube as depicted in the booklets basically creates a short circuit nearly eliminating the intent and actual functional efficiency of the system.

Don’t understand the factory logic for the change. What did they know that is not obvious to us? Did they not see the internal plumbing within the can? I’m inclined to keep with the early air hose routing scheme because it seems like the best technical solution.


somewhere in my research last year i did come across the details of the actual EPA test procedure for the evap emission system.

this is from memory but i could probably find it again.

but it went something like this.
drive the car for a prescribed period of time, it was a fairly long period of time and i think a certain number of miles were involved and it was a kind of simulation of a typical commute drive.

car then driven into special sealed room and switched off. the room contained hydrocarbon sensors. (70s primitive tech sensors?).

car left in there for prescribed period of time. something like an hour or two.

hydrocarbons detected in the atmosphere of room had to be under a certain threshold of x ppm.

pass or fail.

so the test was for the static phase of the operation of the canister system after switch off. the test was not for a dynamic phase (ie purge). manufacturers were expected to keep a fleet of test cars and monitor the system for 50,000 miles or 5 years. at the time the tests were introduced cars had not had the system installed for 5 years. so that was in the future. but if systems failed in the long term manufacturers would have been expected to replace faulty components under warranty. VW or porsches view would have been replace the canister.

i know how it works in my industry. anything required to be certified is designed to pass the test. nothing to do with the real world. ie a fire rated window that has to be certified to be 1/2 hour bushfire rated is that. if it lasts 31 minutes it passes. if it lasts 29 minutes it fails.

i think the canister is all about that. cobbling up a system, using shared universal parts, to get very different types of cars through the test.

getting a cabied 914/6 or 911 through the test would have been a nightmare? they would have exposed as much cross sectional area of charcoal as they could between the carb connected hose and the fan feed (atm vent) hose. so they plugged that carb hose line into the end of the can with the small plenum created by the spring - there is hot fuel in a carb bowl after switch off thats gassing like no tomorrow?

getting a fuel injected 914 or VW through would have been a breeze.
some fuel vapor coming down a tiny hose from the fuel tank which would have been far less heated or subject to heat after switch off. they would have positioned the open hose to atm (fan) with as much charcoal between it and tank vapor line as possible with a view to the long term life of the can as it would have walked through the EPA test. the hose to the air cleaner has the filter between it and the atmosphere to help it and to "seal" vapors in. the EFI cars just would not have been dumping in anything like the vapor load of a carb car at hot shutdown.

i think the early 4 cylinder 914s just got the system porsche tuned for the 914/6 by default? then someone at the factory woke up and said, hey we are not building 914/6s anymore and we can get the cans to last longer the other way around. one thing is for sure, VW had the penny counting overlords going over everything. they would never have missed a trick where a $ was concerned.

i think there is an element of cynicism involved? in the sense of getting through the certification process number 1 rather than necessarily operating well over 5 years.
and they were cynical.
everyone is.
thats why the EPA caught them out in 73?
and again more recently?

pollution gear is funny stuff. all about very specific govt. authority tests conducted within almost laboratory parameters.

beer.gif

Posted by: wonkipop Jun 5 2022, 01:18 AM

After all that research and thanks to all members with 74 L jets who contributed generously -

hose diagrams.
some clarity now how it went in 1974.

- all hose specs come out of the PET.
some sizes will be difficult to get these days.

Attached Image
Attached Image
Attached Image





additionally.
video by @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=26011 showing vac hose layout for 74 1.8 EC-B

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ToxifurNXXg

Posted by: JeffBowlsby Jun 6 2022, 06:50 AM

Niiiice. I see that architects hand... drooley.gif

Was the EGR system an overlay to this system for the cars that had it or integrated with it?

Posted by: wonkipop Jun 6 2022, 03:55 PM

QUOTE(JeffBowlsby @ Jun 6 2022, 06:50 AM) *

Niiiice. I see that architects hand... drooley.gif

Was the EGR system an overlay to this system for the cars that had it or integrated with it?


i did them in the style of your drawing of the 2.0 beerchug.gif
a nice way to spend a wet and very cold sunday.
dusted off the drawing board. good to get away from the CAD screen.

the EGR for calif in 75 was more an integration rather than an overlay.
it used the TB of the 74 EC-B to operate the EGR vac valve and it fed the recirculated exhaust into a line that replaced the PCV valve hose with a Y branch metal tube fitting.
tells you that the EGR only operated with engine vacuum at steady state part open throttle - ie cruise. to some extent the 75 with EGR (calif) was mimicking the 74 EC-B (49 states car) with vac advance, going for fuel economy and cooler running at cruise.

the 75 EC-a 49 states was virtually identical to the 74 EC-A Calif except that the decel vavle was of a different design.

which i think explains the mystery of why VW use the upper case A in 74 and lower case in 75. it had us confused if you recall when we started this research last year. you know - how come the 49 states car in 74 was a (B) and then a (a) in 75? similarly the 74 calif is (A) and then a (b) in 75? initially we were all thinking why would they not be consistent using the A and B classification and would apply it to the state/territory the car was equipped for.

In an odd way they are consistent.
if you consider that the 74 EC-A goes on to be the 75 EC-a and its the layout that is consistent - it just happens to be it fits calif regs in 74 and then complies with 49 states in 75, to more or less the same design.

and if you squint with one eye, the 74 EC-B (49 states) kind of goes on to be the prototype of the 75 EC-b (Calif) with the vac advance timing function on distributor transformed into an EGR operated by the same TB port and with the EGR bringing the same benefits in a different way (and more expensive way) as the vac advance.

if that makes sense.
i think its the best explanation for why the A and B classification get swapped around from 74 to 75 and is altered from upper to lower case.

confused24.gif

i could probably do some diagrams for 75 if there is another very cold and wet weekend this winter and i need to sit by the heater rather than drive my 914.

Posted by: StarBear Jul 10 2022, 07:59 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=24231 @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=8571 B At this weekend’s NE Gathering I met a fellow from Buffalo NY that travelled to South NJ. He has an early 74 with the charcoal canister in the front. It is and was a NY state car; he’s the third owner. Configured just like the blue and orange ones on page 3. Pics below.
VIN 4742908253; DOT 11/73
K chassis #4619568 (mid Nov 73, Monday)
Dual vacuum can and dual TB
Only 2 weeks before mine (VIN …2909…; chassis 483… Nov 28)
So, this really narrows down just when that changeover from front to back happened.
I didn’t think of capturing the engine tin, emissions sticker, or TB number as not a CA car. Attached Image
Attached Image
Attached Image
Attached Image

Posted by: wonkipop Jul 10 2022, 10:03 PM

great stuff @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=10753

looks like you guys had a good get together judging by the photos up in the thread about the gathering. am envious.
you car looked great in the photos steve.
where you responsible for the special beers?
beer.gif

handy to have that K number.

so that ones a monday week 46 car (12 Nov) and definitely frunk.

the derelict one with an engine bay can in the backyard unfortunately did not have a K number. it was vin --08765. thats 512 cars after the monday car you have posted.
the monday car looks like it was 68th car for day and they were building approx 100 per day at that point so.......maths says the derelict car might have been a friday 16 Nov or Monday 19 Nov car as previous guess.

but just to throw things out.
there is the blue car which shows evidence of being a frunk car on the basis of the fuel tank. and its a later vin. ---09096. but no K #.
and member ferg's car. later vin ---09104. but no K#.
using other cars with nearby vins and known k#s these two might have been Tuesday Nov 20 cars but they could just as easily be earlier commencement build cars with later completion dates when they got their Vins.

so we got some overlap still.

i suspect you can't go off Vin #s for this change, but have to use K# to get the day and date.

what is interesting is the red car you have posted up has a K# 4619568 which is day before R. Rietman's car K#4629552, (RR's maybe 100 cars at most later = a days production?) but the red car is Vin ---08253, which is 537 after R. Rietman's car V# ---07716. !!! we can see how much the K numbers (commencement of build) are out of synch with the vin numbers (completion of build). the red car is a great bit of information for showing the degree of that out of synch-ness
so you would definitely expect there could well be what looks like a smudge or overlap if you went off Vin numbers.

you could pinpoint a date for sure with K#s.

pity there was no K# with that derelict car. or those two later frunk can cars that come after the derelict car.

its still all pointing toward the end of week 46/start of week 47. 16/19 Nov 73.
but can't get much closer than that still.

beerchug.gif

Posted by: StarBear Jul 11 2022, 06:22 AM

Yep; darn close to pinning it down, I’d say. Great minutia.
Yes with the beers. May post images of the full bottle labels later today. A blast of a time. While I didn’t win any of the oil change auction items, got a sweet pair of led headlights!

Posted by: StarBear Jul 11 2022, 01:41 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=23752 Rob - Here's the info we were discussing at the Gathering. Yours was produced only 2 weeks before mine (with the charcoal cannister in the back)!

Posted by: wonkipop Jul 12 2022, 06:29 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=10753 @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=26011 @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=104

some more data i pulled down from a car just up for sale on BAT.
05/74 914 1.8.
VIN# 4742918254
K# 2019552 = mon 13 may 1974
fair condition car - mostly original.
no shots of tune up sticker or emission sticker.
but sold new in california - palo alto.
engine shots show that original distributor is gone and vacuum lines for retard and advance plugged and removed.
has engine tin paint stamp #606.
607 and 606 previously found to be EC-A engines.
also has no temp gauge sender lid or console with gauges - consistent with speculation that 606 means standard EC-A engine for 1.8 without console option fitted at factory.
i'll enter this data into the schedules on page 1 of the thread and update when i get some time.

Attached Image
Attached Image
Attached Image
Attached Image
Attached Image
Attached Image
Attached Image


of interest it has metal expansion tank on fuel tank.
still using metal expansion tank in early may 74

Attached Image

i have VIN ---18255 , one car after it, already on file from research last year but no images of frunk of that car in the file, so don't know what tank type it had.

by june 74 they were using the plastic expansion tank.
example VIN 4742920438.
no K# for that car but 17 cars from another on vin database here with K# indicating 28 June 74 build.

Attached Image

i've not looked previously at this with the 1.8 research we did.
i have only a first edition of b. johnson book - restorers guide.
he may have updated the information regarding the plastic tank update.
in the first edition he gives a date of mid 1974.
unclear if he means calendar year or model year.
if he means calendar year he is close.
looks like it happens somewhere between may 13 and june 28.
if any more late production 74s show up post may 13 build date this might be pinned down as a date or vin if it has not already been done.
so far in our research a car has not shown up between these two examples.

the PET catalogue is very vague (incorrect!?) on both the charcoal cannister update and the plastic expansion tank update making it seem that both occur at end of 73 MY.
reality is quite different.

EDIT JULY 22 2022

turned up the stuff on example 1 VIN after blue car above - has metal expansion tank.

1.8 L jet likely EC-B (tune up sticker)
VIN 4742918255
K# 1959559 build commencement friday 10 may 1974

Vin is one number after blue car above, K number indicates build commences on the friday before the monday blue car above starts.

Attached Image
Attached Image
Attached Image

Posted by: Van B Jul 12 2022, 09:21 PM

Our cars really were like a beta test for the L-Jet system and the changing emissions regulations.
Obviously it performed well, but they also didn’t waste time on refining the L-Jet in a 914 since the were on to the 928 and 924.

Posted by: StarBear Jul 13 2022, 02:18 PM

QUOTE(Van B @ Jul 12 2022, 11:21 PM) *

Our cars really were like a beta test for the L-Jet system and the changing emissions regulations.
Obviously it performed well, but they also didn’t waste time on refining the L-Jet in a 914 since the were on to the 928 and 924.

agree.gif

Posted by: StarBear Jul 13 2022, 02:20 PM

Found another 74 (?) this morning behind a garage. Couldn't get the VIN but have asked the owner to dig in under the tie-down tarp to capture it. Might be a 73 as he said it came with a 1.7 engine, now out of it. Not in the VIN database, he says. Stay tuned.

Posted by: wonkipop Jul 17 2022, 07:04 AM

came across another plastic expansion tank 74.
closer to the blue one with a metal expansion tank posted above.

this one is a 05/74, VIN 4742919034.
K# 222956(8?) last number hard to read.
build inception date = tuesday 28 may 1974.

puts date for change to plastic tank between mon 13 may and tuesday 28 may 74.

Attached Image
Attached Image
Attached Image

EDIT 21 JULY 2022
just noticed thread up in garage section.
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=360511&st=0
member harlespeed bought this car and has already half transformed it in to a beast of a machine. ha ha ha. research is barely one step ahead of the god of speed. biggrin.gif

Posted by: StarBear Jul 18 2022, 06:52 AM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=24231 BTW, what color is yours, and what type of wheels? Don’t recall ever seeing a photo of yours.

Posted by: wonkipop Jul 18 2022, 07:50 AM

QUOTE(StarBear @ Jul 18 2022, 06:52 AM) *

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=24231 BTW, what color is yours, and what type of wheels? Don’t recall ever seeing a photo of yours.


white with some patina.
no wheels. concrete blocks.
Attached Image

























biggrin.gif


its a relic like yours.

Attached Image

Posted by: wonkipop Jul 18 2022, 08:02 AM

just been scratching through my files here a bit more.

and there is this.
there was some controversy about this car,
it was up for sale on BAT a few months back and had some dodgy stuff where the original chassis number in frunk on top of wheel arch had been covered with a chassis plate from another car as well as the windscreen vin having been tampered with.

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1974-porsche-914-2-0-58/

general conclusion in the end was that the vin sticker and the chassis number engraved under the false plate as well as the real plate on the headlight bucket were in fact the real numbers.

had some photos of it on file - i relooked at them,
it has a plastic expansion tank.
VIN 4742918919
K # 2119545. = mon 20 may 1974.
narrows the gap to the change from metal tank to plastic tank to window of
mon 13 may to 20 may 1974. looking like its sometime in week 20 1974.

Attached Image
Attached Image
Attached Image

i've gone back over all the examples i had on file and checked through them, and that was all i had.
but the green car above is a 2.0L car and we have been concentrating on 1.8 cars.
so there might still be some 74 cars on BAT archive that are cars built between these dates. when i get time i might try and pick through BAT looking at 2 L cars and see if anything else is there. beerchug.gif

Posted by: StarBear Jul 18 2022, 10:46 AM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=24231 Something special made - for you from the friendly folks at 914 Brewing!
Attached Image

Posted by: wonkipop Jul 18 2022, 04:48 PM

QUOTE(StarBear @ Jul 18 2022, 10:46 AM) *

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=24231 Something special made - for you from the friendly folks at 914 Brewing!
Attached Image


lol-2.gif

thanks mate.
i'll print that out and glue it to a bottle.

Posted by: wonkipop Jul 18 2022, 05:17 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=10753 @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=104 @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=26011

1.8 L jet research was kind of worth it.
did a 914world search - i see dr. 914 asked the question recently in 2020
(info for revised dr. b johnson book?)

he was close with his initial historical info -- but not quite.
had all 74 1.8s pegged as engine bay charcoal cans.
and plastic expansion tank change as late 1974 - meaning i think late MY 74?

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=346667

now we know
1) at least 3 weeks of 1.8s with frunk charcoal cannister up to approx nov 20 1973.
2) plastic expansion tank change is between mon 13 may (metal) and mon 20 may (plastic). week 20 of 1974. last metal tank i found is a 1.8. first plastic tank i found is a 2.0.

subset of 1) is that evap emissions plumbing is revised from porsche design to VW design at inception of engine bay cannister - approx nov 20 1973,

what i have been really looking for with any cars that come up on BAT is that elusive
EC-B emissions sticker with only USEPA approval. i'm starting to think that the sticker might apply to EC-B engines after a certain date in late 74 model year. likely perhaps the CARB put their foot down and made porsche/VW declare the EC-B as not approved for california. difficult information to find as not many BAT photos home in on the sticker, it is always hidden in most photo sets. sad.gif

in dr. 914's thread Maltese Falcon entered a post noting his 02/74 had a frunk charcoal can from new. given the wild drift in Vin numbers and K#s that has come up in the L jet research that does not surprise me now. i reckon there is a good chance Maltese Falcon's car might have been started in Oct 73 in the first batch of 914 2.0s and not finished and given a VIN until Feb 74. i will try and look through the Vin data base here and see if he has entered a K#. that will tell a story if the info is there.

Posted by: Van B Jul 18 2022, 05:54 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=24231 how many US spec ‘74 1.8s do you think we’re made? Ball park

Posted by: wonkipop Jul 18 2022, 06:45 PM

QUOTE(Van B @ Jul 18 2022, 05:54 PM) *

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=24231 how many US spec ‘74 1.8s do you think we’re made? Ball park



lol-2.gif aktion035.gif

6 months ago i would probably not be able to work it out.
there is production info on the website here in the 914 info section.
its been broken down into calendar years not model years.

and the problem is that the 74MY 1.8s are mixed in with the 75MY 1.8s for calendar year 74.

but given our research i am pretty sure that for 75 MY the 1.8 L jet is going in no other VW car except the 914 as the 412 ceased production. so i reckon a figure on 75s might be possible going off engine numbers. there is a separate number for 75 1,8s made in calendar year 75 so the maths is possible. that would get me to the subtracted number of 74 1.8s made in 1974. so i reckon i could get a real number. when i get time i might give it a try.

i think approx just over 20,000 MY 74 cars get made.
i'd guess its probably 2/3 1.8 to 1/3 2.0. say 13,000-14,000.
but i reckon i can get an actual figure for the model year which i have not seen elsewhere in my travels researching.

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=26011 and @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=10753 . i'm still laughing at the label. wallabies are real slow.
they just stand in the middle of the road and wait to get run over. don't even hop off.
was down in tasmania 4 years ago doing a combat drop job mission and had an audi a-3 sportback to drive. there are no roos in tasmania, just wallabies. i was hooking it back from lake pedder right in the middle of tas, a fantastic high class road that tasmania hydro built that goes nowhere except to the dam in the middle of the wilderness. one of the best drives in the world you can still do. no police. no speed cameras. lets just say i had the audi wound out. i could see a black spot on the road ahead. then i realised what it was. a fricken wallaby. the ABS was outstanding. i pulled up about 6 feet from the wallaby. it looked at me and stood there for about 10 seconds then slowly loped off the road doing that weird walk that roos and wallabies do where they put their little short arms down and kind of move their back legs through. couldn't even be bothered hopping off the road.

Posted by: wonkipop Jul 18 2022, 07:35 PM

QUOTE(wonkipop @ Jul 18 2022, 04:48 PM) *

QUOTE(StarBear @ Jul 18 2022, 10:46 AM) *

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=24231 Something special made - for you from the friendly folks at 914 Brewing!
Attached Image


lol-2.gif

thanks mate.
i'll print that out and glue it to a bottle.



EDIT
ps you have a very famous surname in australian architectural circles.
kevin borland was the architects name.
amazing post war architect. i met him a few times.
i had the honour of designing a tiny little staircase and passage structure that joins two buildings of his at a very special alternative school he designed in the 60s and 70s.
all under historical protection. guy was a legend.
wonder if you are related?

kev b exclusively drove citroens his whole life.
i got my first ride in a citroen in his car when i was a student in the late 70s.
blew my tiny little country boy brain as i was fresh in the big city riding in the passenger seat of a weird super sophisticated french luxury car.
his business partner at that time had a 75 911S. that guy still has the 911 to this day.
a bit you like you. never parted with his porsche.

Posted by: Van B Jul 18 2022, 08:08 PM

I don’t know how I missed that label lol! You know, I would buy a six pack I think beerchug.gif

Your car is such a classic looking car too Wonki. Prob never gets old walking up to it.

Posted by: wonkipop Jul 18 2022, 08:48 PM

QUOTE(Van B @ Jul 18 2022, 08:08 PM) *

I don’t know how I missed that label lol! You know, I would buy a six pack I think beerchug.gif

Your car is such a classic looking car too Wonki. Prob never gets old walking up to it.



its peppered in dents. 50 years worth. mostly small dings. but i cannot bear to remove the original paint which has made it this far.

fortunately i never got tempted to repaint it or mess with it too much apart from having to do the conversion to rhd. once an absolute necessity by law. if only i had been able to wait a decade. but thems the breaks.

it spent 16 years until recently dry stored, i kind of had to get life back on track after some arbitrary disasters around the turn of the century. kind of helped with the body work / interior staying static and not decomposing. not so the mechanicals but!!!!
recommission was a fair bit of renewal. still ongoing thanks to your interests in perfection which has helped me get further in full functionality.

nihill44's cars are much better. his look fantastic in the photos he showed me. fully restored. he is a perfectionist. i'll drop in on him when i make it up to brisbane one day. nihill's got a special one. a 76 that seems to have been made on the last day.
he has rescued it from oblivion and wanton destruction.

i'm going to knock up a slab of beers with starbears labels.
i'll take a photo.

Posted by: wonkipop Jul 19 2022, 12:12 AM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=26011 + @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=10753

speaking of walking up to the car and never feeling tired of it.

something out of the blue just happened which is worthy of report.
its been unbelievably cold here.
record low temps. other side of global warming???!!
last night dropped down to well below freezing (under 0 deg C).
never happens.
been cold and clear all day. my garage is as cold as a tomb.

i decided to take the 914 out for an errand - didn't get to run it on the weekend.

started it up and.........
it went to fast idle. around about 1400 rpm.
it stayed that way for about 3-4 minutes and settled down to 1000-950.

had a pleasant drive. roof off. heater on. clear blue skies and rugged up.

WTF

all i can think is the super cold weather must have somehow opened up the AAV or caused it to contract past a position it must be stuck in due to perhaps always having been sitting in one position for 16+ years and maybe there is a bit of surface corrosion it sticks on.
i did pull it out and clean it properly when i recommissioned 2 years ago but it didn't seem to do much except close when you warmed it up with current.
but this is something else - its never done it before since recommissioning.
a perfect warm up. it had to have opened up to a much larger orifice that it normally is resting at?

the more i think about it, this is what it used to do. hard to remember clearly, but i do think it was more or less just as it did today.

----guess all it took was for it to think it was back in maryland or chicago in the middle of winter and it came back from the dead. no doubt when its warmer it will go back to its old aussie habits and stop thinking its an american.

confused24.gif but biggrin.gif

Posted by: wonkipop Jul 19 2022, 01:32 AM

QUOTE(Van B @ Jul 18 2022, 05:54 PM) *

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=24231 how many US spec ‘74 1.8s do you think we’re made? Ball park



ok i could get close with 74 but not exact using annual production figures from this website. it surprised me. fewer than i thought.

i could get an exact number for 75*.

reason i can't get an exact number for 74 is the production totals given here on the website are including euro spec 1.8s and no matter what cannot determine how many of those there were.

here is the breakdown for the 1.8.

74MY (made 73CY) = 3903

74MY + 75MY (made 74CY) = 11415

75MY (made 75CY) = 2455.

--------
can work out total 75 MY cars as 1.8 engines were only in 914s*.
number of EC 1.8 75 engines = EC0 037552 ---> EC0 045072 = 7520 cars.
number of AN 1.8 75 engines = AN0 008798 ---> AN0 008899 = 101 cars.*

total = 7621 cars.

7621 (TOTAL) - 2455 (75CY) = 5166 75 MY 1.8 made in CY74.
---------
for 1974.
11415 (TOTAL) - 5166 (75MY) = 6249 (74MY) made in CY74

total 74 MY = 6249 + 3903 = 10452 1974MY 1.8 in total.

don't have a way to break down between EC engines and AN engines in 74.
a total of 37551 EC engines were made for 74 MY and the bulk went into USA VW 412s.
a total of 8797 AN engines were made for 74MY and again the bulk went into euro VW 412s.

but what you can say is there were less than 10,452 74 1.8 L jets made.
probably around the 10,000 mark.

its only about 2/3 of my over optimistic guestimate.

of that how many survive reasonably intact today.
i'd say well less than half.

the VIN numbers for 74MY run up into about the 21,000 number looking at the members VIN list here.

its roughly 50% 2.0 and 50% 1.8 numbers for the 74 MY.
unless my maths is wrong.

i do think the bulk of 1.8s went to the USA.
you can see the hint in the 1975 production numbers for euro 1.8s.
they barely make any and its probably a similar story for 1974.
the europeans by and large bought the 2.0 L cars.
so USA numbers on 2.0 L to 1.8s is probably a 1/3 to 2/3 split.



*footnote.
there is a question mark around that.
i wont go into it.
but VW legend is there was a odd batch of 412s produced in 1975.
disconnected from the production run after the car was terminated.
but its shrouded in fog.
i can recall the stories from the 1980s.
a 411/412 VW enthusiast from new zealand had the info.
that might throw numbers out on AN engines.
we are only talking 100 cars at most.
who knows?

Posted by: StarBear Jul 19 2022, 06:54 AM

QUOTE(wonkipop @ Jul 18 2022, 09:35 PM) *

QUOTE(wonkipop @ Jul 18 2022, 04:48 PM) *

QUOTE(StarBear @ Jul 18 2022, 10:46 AM) *

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=24231 Something special made - for you from the friendly folks at 914 Brewing!
Attached Image


lol-2.gif

thanks mate.
i'll print that out and glue it to a bottle.



EDIT
ps you have a very famous surname in australian architectural circles.
kevin borland was the architects name.
amazing post war architect. i met him a few times.
i had the honour of designing a tiny little staircase and passage structure that joins two buildings of his at a very special alternative school he designed in the 60s and 70s.
all under historical protection. guy was a legend.
wonder if you are related?

kev b exclusively drove citroens his whole life.
i got my first ride in a citroen in his car when i was a student in the late 70s.
blew my tiny little country boy brain as i was fresh in the big city riding in the passenger seat of a weird super sophisticated french luxury car.
his business partner at that time had a 75 911S. that guy still has the 911 to this day.
a bit you like you. never parted with his porsche.


@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=24231 Very interesting. Steven Borland is my wife’s nephew and used to work in a brewery so picked up some home brewing skill. His older brother is Kevin Borland but not an architect. He’s really into his family history so will ask him. Probably not as much of his family history is Poland.
Will try changing label font to white - might show up better. If you’d like the actual full file just pm your email to me. I’ll send both versions.

Posted by: StarBear Jul 19 2022, 10:44 AM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=24231 As promised, here's the white font version; I think the text shows up much better.

Attached Image

Posted by: StarBear Jul 19 2022, 10:44 AM

"L" is for L-Jet, obviously.....

Posted by: Van B Jul 19 2022, 11:01 AM

First off, you two are ridiculous lol...

Second, there's a reason for my numbers question: I'm wondering if we can figure out a reasoned number for surviving L-Jetronic cars. I was hoping that the vin database could be filtered by engine type, but it looks like it's not so. But, if we could export to xls and read by the remarks for 1.8's that are original FI or carbed, then we could prove out a market for companies like URO to make some replacement FI components. The AAV, CSV, and TTS are all NLA in their original form and could be easy to reproduce.

Posted by: StarBear Jul 19 2022, 01:06 PM

Good move, Van.
My thought is that 1.8s may be the most rare except for the two LE cars. 6-cylinders might originally on par but many rescued and many converted, leaving 1.8s produced only 15-18(?) months and many not salvaged or have been converted to 2056, as are the 1.7s that were produced 2+ years.

Posted by: wonkipop Jul 19 2022, 03:14 PM

QUOTE(StarBear @ Jul 19 2022, 01:06 PM) *

Good move, Van.
My thought is that 1.8s may be the most rare except for the two LE cars. 6-cylinders might originally on par but many rescued and many converted, leaving 1.8s produced only 15-18(?) months and many not salvaged or have been converted to 2056, as are the 1.7s that were produced 2+ years.


correct.

twice as many 2.0 D jet were made.
4 times as many 1.7 D jet.

approx 30,000 1.8 L jets in 412s
with mostly identical components.
close to zero still running?
be more 914s preserved.

all parts for this L jet version 1 would have been warehoused in the USA.
sold nowhere else.



Posted by: wonkipop Jul 19 2022, 03:17 PM

QUOTE(StarBear @ Jul 19 2022, 10:44 AM) *

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=24231 As promised, here's the white font version; I think the text shows up much better.

Attached Image


thanks.

the red and black version is the one i love.
same as the car.
essendon football club colors (the bombers).

Attached Image

red and white is the sydney swans. barf.gif

Posted by: StarBear Jul 19 2022, 07:05 PM

Great! Works for you so go with it. Can appreciate the “colors”.

Posted by: Van B Jul 20 2022, 09:57 AM

Well, I straight up missed this page...
http://www.914world.com/specs/productionnumbers.php

Posted by: wonkipop Jul 20 2022, 04:37 PM

QUOTE(Van B @ Jul 20 2022, 09:57 AM) *

Well, I straight up missed this page...
http://www.914world.com/specs/productionnumbers.php


yep.
but the figures are for calendar years not model years.
so it gets mixed up from that point of view.

Posted by: Van B Jul 20 2022, 05:18 PM

Not really. You said you could figure exactly the number of ‘75 models, right? So the remainder would be ‘74 1.8’s produced in 1974.

Posted by: wonkipop Jul 20 2022, 05:22 PM

QUOTE(Van B @ Jul 20 2022, 05:18 PM) *

Not really. You said you could figure exactly the number of ‘75 models, right? So the remainder would be ‘74 1.8’s produced in 1974.


i've already done it for you mate.
its on page 4 of this thread.
got you the exact number of 1974 1.8s 10,452.

the figure was inclusive of euro 1.8s which i cannot separate out.
(you can waterboard me to interrogate the maths, its all up there for airforce scrutiny).

i got you exact breakdown figures for 75 1.8 L jets and 75 1.8 euros which i could do off engine numbers.
my kremlin source leaked a dossier on those.


steve's smokescreen of beer labels distracted you.

now you can order an airstrike on URO parts.


EDIT
a bonus for you, since i failed to provide military grade intelligence on 74 L jet numbers - and i know you want to slip some 1,8 euro pistons in yours.
glove box manual for uk 75.
respected owners enough to tell them to lubricate the distributor.
don't think those of us with USA cars were trusted to do that?
(no retard on vac can! - poms still loved NOX and pea soup fog).

Attached Image
Attached Image

check out the use of the word "bonnet" in guidance to lubricate the rear trunk lid rollers.
thats a pure bit of pommy lingo.
our USA booklets call it a rear lid hinge.
these booklets are so tuned to the language of their markets. biggrin.gif biggrin.gif biggrin.gif

i must admit i can still remember my mothers' datsun 180B handbook written in Japlish - which she would put in front of me at the dinner table and ask me what it meant. smile.gif

Posted by: wonkipop Jul 22 2022, 02:00 AM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=1244

i mentioned in pm that i had also seen an example of karmann rivetted tag on rhs of front trunk similar to what you brought up.

digging through files accumulated on ECA/B research i located them.

here they are. more surprising than i recalled.
perhaps you already have these examples.

1)
VIN 4742918254
K # 2019552
= mon 13 may 74 build commencement.

Attached Image
Attached Image


2)
VIN 4742918255
K # 1959559
= friday 10 may 74 commencement

Attached Image
Attached Image

cars are 1 VIN # apart.
tags gone in on the lhs on friday car and rhs on monday car.

after that date examples i have (2 weeks later and a june car) the tag goes back to rhs.
a momentary abberation.

Posted by: StarBear Jul 22 2022, 05:34 AM

QUOTE(wonkipop @ Jul 22 2022, 04:00 AM) *

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=1244

after that date examples i have (2 weeks later and a june car) the tag goes back to rhs.
a momentary abberation.


Hans was on vacation; Wilhelm filled in that day. blink.gif

Posted by: wonkipop Jul 22 2022, 06:02 AM

QUOTE(StarBear @ Jul 22 2022, 05:34 AM) *

QUOTE(wonkipop @ Jul 22 2022, 04:00 AM) *

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=1244

after that date examples i have (2 weeks later and a june car) the tag goes back to rhs.
a momentary abberation.


Hans was on vacation; Wilhelm filled in that day. blink.gif



they transferred wilhelm to the right hand drive beetle convertible line on tuesday. dry.gif

Posted by: wonkipop Jul 29 2022, 10:25 PM

new data
entered into tables on page 1 of thread.

05/74 low miles original condition 1.8 L jet.
VIN # 4742917931
K # 1939542 Wed 8/MAY/74

no emissions sticker visible.
2 hose tune up sticker = EC-B
distributor vac hose hook up consistent with EC-B
Sold new in West Virginia.
engine stamp = 604. consistent with EC-B, no temp gauge option installed from factory (EC-B engine with standard sump lid).
metal fuel expansion tank. (to note fuel tank was replaced with new part but original expansion tank appears to have been re-used, see original sticker). 8 may consistent with cut off date of approx may 10 for metal expansion tank.

Attached Image
Attached Image
Attached Image

Posted by: StarBear Jul 30 2022, 06:49 AM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=24231 I’m planning on redoing a sheet of tune up stickers. Could you remind me which ones had the single vacuum hose sticker (EC-A Caalifornia?) and which the dual hoses (EC-B non California?).
I think I need to make a scorecard sheet to keep these variants straight. dry.gif

Posted by: wonkipop Jul 30 2022, 07:07 AM

QUOTE(StarBear @ Jul 30 2022, 06:49 AM) *

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=24231 I’m planning on redoing a sheet of tune up stickers. Could you remind me which ones had the single vacuum hose sticker (EC-A Caalifornia?) and which the dual hoses (EC-B non California?).
I think I need to make a scorecard sheet to keep these variants straight. dry.gif



biggrin.gif

you got it right above steve. beerchug.gif

it was all a lot simpler 30 years ago living in ignorant bliss.

Posted by: StarBear Jul 30 2022, 10:00 AM

QUOTE(wonkipop @ Jul 30 2022, 09:07 AM) *

QUOTE(StarBear @ Jul 30 2022, 06:49 AM) *

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=24231 I’m planning on redoing a sheet of tune up stickers. Could you remind me which ones had the single vacuum hose sticker (EC-A Caalifornia?) and which the dual hoses (EC-B non California?).
I think I need to make a scorecard sheet to keep these variants straight. dry.gif



biggrin.gif

you got it right above steve. beerchug.gif

it was all a lot simpler 30 years ago living in ignorant bliss.

Got it! Will let you and @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=8571 B know when they're done so if you want you can sport a correct 2-hose tuneup sticker. piratenanner.gif
Just revisited the 12/25/2021 entry above which indicates the reverse (EC-A are 49 states and EC-B are California). blink.gif

Posted by: wonkipop Jul 30 2022, 07:11 PM

QUOTE(StarBear @ Jul 30 2022, 10:00 AM) *

QUOTE(wonkipop @ Jul 30 2022, 09:07 AM) *

QUOTE(StarBear @ Jul 30 2022, 06:49 AM) *

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=24231 I’m planning on redoing a sheet of tune up stickers. Could you remind me which ones had the single vacuum hose sticker (EC-A Caalifornia?) and which the dual hoses (EC-B non California?).
I think I need to make a scorecard sheet to keep these variants straight. dry.gif



biggrin.gif

you got it right above steve. beerchug.gif

it was all a lot simpler 30 years ago living in ignorant bliss.

Got it! Will let you and @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=8571 B know when they're done so if you want you can sport a correct 2-hose tuneup sticker. piratenanner.gif
Just revisited the 12/25/2021 entry above which indicates the reverse (EC-A are 49 states and EC-B are California). blink.gif


not sure what entry you are referring to.
perhaps @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=104 at the start of it all suggesting EC-B was california and A was 49.
jeff was using the logic of the 1,7 engines and later 75 cars.
as we discovered it is german logic of a different order. biggrin.gif

EC-A = 74 california.
EC-B = 74 49 states.

its all there on page 1 of this thread with the photos to demonstrate.
and as we know our cars are EC-B and are 49 states from new.

in 75 it goes EC-a = 49 states. and EC-b = california.
not capital letters.
however that engine labelling only happens in a service introduction guide for dealers and mechanics to the 75 model. the engine emissions labels on all 75 cars is done in an updated manner that refers to engine families and engine type and no longer uses the EC format.

i do believe there is a reason that happens with the capital A and the small a but i won't go into it here. suffice to say that basically a 74 california engine is in fact a 75 49 states. hence A becomes a. and in a more complex way the EC-B of 49 states becomes the EC-b of california a year later. but i will save that up unless someone really wants to know. its just an observation rather than something you can document from any contemporary technical documents.

beer3.gif

Posted by: JeffBowlsby Aug 5 2022, 06:18 PM

I was thinking about the charcoal can air supply and vapor exit lines again, and how switching them cleans up the 1.8L engine bay a bit. Might even do a better job of cleaning up the vapors. Eliminates the crossed S-hose in the middle of the engine bay.

It looks so right for all the wrong reasons and so wrong for all the right reasons. aktion035.gif


Attached thumbnail(s)
Attached Image

Posted by: wonkipop Aug 5 2022, 06:35 PM

biggrin.gif

doing a bit of resto-moding mr b? smile.gif

-----

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=16126 has his can flipped around to do the hose clean up - but has retained the performance update of 74. biggrin.gif

Posted by: wonkipop Aug 8 2022, 02:59 AM

QUOTE(JeffBowlsby @ Dec 31 2021, 10:25 AM) *

AN engine in a factory 1974 914 GT (European-market 914 CanAm car). Only car I have documentation of with this engine, and my only photo of it.

VIN 4742916340 on the 914 Can Am Car Registry.



@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=104

mr. b, it just occurred to me that this engine is really worth chasing down for details.
hidden behind that heater blower hose is probably the last missing paint stamp number on engine tin for 74 1.8s.

a factory euro GT had gauges.
i'm betting the stamp on there is 609.
given we got the number for a euro 74 1.8 without gauges and it was 608.

is this too far back in time to contact the owner on the can am register you run?

you made the post i have quoted back on page 2 of the thread with a photo of the engine. i have read elsewhere there is some contention that some euro GTs may have been fitted with 1.8 engines. confused24.gif

Posted by: wonkipop Aug 18 2022, 05:52 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=104

i just picked up on this small detail change to 74 models looking at material i had about the plastic expansion tank change in 74.

you may know about it and if so i won't bother looking further if the change is known about.

75 1.8s (and 2.0s as well) had a first stage black plastic corrugated hose out of the air blower box in the front trunk.

Attached Image

i thought 74 1.8s all had corrugated cardboard hoses throughout the blower ducting in the front trunk. example - my 01/74.

Attached Image

but now i am seeing the change to the black plastic hose happens later in the 74 model year.

06/74

Attached Image

05/74

Attached Image

04/74

Attached Image

03/74 (late march)

Attached Image

02/74 (cardboard)

Attached Image



from the material i had conveniently at hand from L jet research.

Posted by: wonkipop Aug 26 2022, 04:20 PM

MINOR CHANGES AND UPDATES THRU 74 MODEL YEAR.

compiled from review of data gathered for EC-A/B 1.8 research dec 2021-aug 2022.


UPDATE 1. Front Trunk Headlight Motor Shield.
Changes from Black Plastic to Grey and back to Black.
Black late 09/73 - 12/73.
Grey 01/74 - 04/74.
Black 05/74 - 7/74. approx to month.

UPDATE 2. Ventilation Blower Ducting - Front Trunk.
Changes from Corrugated Natural Color Cardboard to Flexible Ribbed Black Plastic.
Cardboard late 09/73 - 02/73
Black Plastic 03/74-07/74

UPDATE 3. Fuel Tank Expansion Chamber.
Changes from Metal Construction to Plastic Unit.
Metal late 09/73 - mid 05/74
Plastic mid 05/74-07/74
(refer page 4 of this thread - examples of 05/74 2.0L cars included to refine date).

UPDATE 4. Rear Trunk Insulation Pad.
Changes from Semi Rigid Moulded Pad to Light Weight Foam Filled Pillow.
Rigid Pad late 09/73 - 12/73
Foam Pillow 01/74-07/74

Attached Image

Attached Image

Attached Image



UPDATE 1. Headlight Motor Shields/Covers. (HLC)

Attached Image
Attached Image


UPDATE 2. Ventilation Blower Ducting. (BT)

Attached Image
Attached Image


UPDATE 3. Fuel Tank Expansion Chamber. (ET)

Attached Image
Attached Image


UPDATE 4. Rear Trunk Insulation Pad.

Attached Image
Attached Image


TRIVIA. Tool Kit Contents.
4 examples, reasonably trustworthy, retained original tool kits.
Question of Screwdriver Handle - White or Black?
Both varieties seem to be evenly distributed on limited data compiled
(few sales listings document toolkit - only cars with evident originality were included).
At least three cars under production at Karmann received the tool kit simultaneously.
(VW beetle cabriolet, VW Karmann Ghia and 914)

Attached Image
Attached Image


This data may already be known and compiled elsewhere.
either on this website or in sources such as Restorers Guide to Authenticity (Johnson).
Dates might continue to be refined with further data.

Posted by: wonkipop Aug 27 2022, 06:56 PM

LAST BIT OF TRIVIA.

VIN LABEL COLOR MATCHED TO 74 COLOR RANGE.

extracted from 45+ examples on file from ECA/B research.
multiple examples of each color across extent of 74 MY production
(apart from black and alaska blue metallic, 1 example of each only).
vin labels exhibit 100% consistency to particular colors.
(not to say exceptions won't be out there somewhere?).

thanks to mr. b's website for color range cards i marked up.

Attached Image
Attached Image
Attached Image
Attached Image

Posted by: StarBear Aug 28 2022, 08:29 AM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=24231 One correction for your table: my car (VIN 9760) had a port of entry at Portsmouth, VA. Bought it near home in Richmond, VA where I grew up, the day after graduating UVA. Moved to NJ about 2weeks later; been here ever since. dry.gif
Have also added for the record the pics below of my original air blower hoses, rear trunk pad, and tool kit with tire bar. biggrin.gif

Attached Image

Attached Image

Attached Image


Posted by: StarBear Aug 28 2022, 09:28 AM

More 1.8L minutia:
1. What/when determines the location of the HO Recall sticker? The pics on Jeff Bowlsby's site shows two colors at two different locations (see below). According to Jeff's details, this recall applied to ALL 914s, not just the 1.8s, in 1977 shortly after the model was discontinued.
2. Also, any clue as to who might make reproductions? Mine had the recall done, but never any sticker. My other other is to reproduce one myself (as I did with the tuneup sticker) off the red image.

Attached Image

Attached Image

Posted by: JeffBowlsby Aug 28 2022, 12:22 PM

Read the HO recall papers posted on my site.

Posted by: StarBear Aug 28 2022, 02:45 PM

QUOTE(JeffBowlsby @ Aug 28 2022, 02:22 PM) *

Read the HO recall papers posted on my site.

Got it! Thanks, Jeff. EDIT: The one on the red car is in the correct location ("... next to the vehicle identification plate"); the one on the yellow car is not.

Posted by: wonkipop Aug 28 2022, 04:28 PM

QUOTE(StarBear @ Aug 28 2022, 08:29 AM) *

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=24231 One correction for your table: my car (VIN 9760) had a port of entry at Portsmouth, VA. Bought it near home in Richmond, VA where I grew up, the day after graduating UVA. Moved to NJ about 2weeks later; been here ever since. dry.gif
Have also added for the record the pics below of my original air blower hoses, rear trunk pad, and tool kit with tire bar. biggrin.gif

Attached Image

Attached Image

Attached Image



thanks for posting those up steve. beerchug.gif
the old black screwdriver hey!

i keep my lever bar with the jack in the rear trunk.
won't fit in that dumb plastic bag. sad.gif

i'll fix up your entry to say Virginia. have i got that right for VA. gotta try and remember all those USA state abbreviations, you guys have so many states.
its a lot easier here. biggrin.gif

Posted by: wonkipop Aug 28 2022, 06:47 PM

ps steve

the screwdrivers are kind of confused24.gif .

a car identical to mine. phoenix red. black interior. steelies week 2 jan 74 had the black.
two weeks later mine is built. phoenix red. brown interior. steelies. week 4 jan 74 had the white.
like VW had two different suppliers for the screwdrivers and just mixed them up?

Posted by: StarBear Aug 28 2022, 06:59 PM

QUOTE(wonkipop @ Aug 28 2022, 08:47 PM) *

ps steve

the screwdrivers are kind of confused24.gif .

a car identical to mine. phoenix red. black interior. steelies week 2 jan 74 had the black.
two weeks later mine is built. phoenix red. brown interior. steelies. week 4 jan 74 had the white.
like VW had two different suppliers for the screwdrivers and just mixed them up?

Either that or Hans was left handed (black bin) and Johannes was right handed (white bin). It seems to happen...... blink.gif

Posted by: StarBear Aug 28 2022, 07:03 PM

Ok, here's my try at the minutia of the HO Recall Sticker. Kept it "aged" instead of nice new white. As I note, minutia. dry.gif EDIT: Actual size 53mm (2.09") high, 38 mm (1.5") wide based on proportional measurements compared to the VIN plate in the red image on Jeff's website and measured to my VIN plate. beer.gif
Attached Image

Posted by: wonkipop Aug 28 2022, 10:16 PM

don't think mine ever got taken in for recall. no sticker. still had cloth lines on it when i got it in 89 and was leaking from every orifice.

come to think of it even the 4 new injectors and new fuel lines that went in then were cloth braided. that was from West Suburban Imports - a VW dealer in chicago in maywood. so much for getting the details right 12 years down the track. smile.gif

i found the receipt in my papers here. 4 new fuel injectors cost $280.00 back then.
$70.00 each! in real terms they have gone down in price these days. blink.gif
i think i managed to get the recent replacements, genuine items NOS from a guy in arizona for $60.00 each.

a relay was replaced too. $87.55
part # 033 251 4120. must look that up.

points were $4.00. oil filter $6.60.
all the fuel line clamps cost $15.00

funny looking back at what things cost.
for all our complaining, parts were fairly expensive back then.
labor was cheapish. looks like it was $45.00 per unit. (hour?). biggrin.gif


edit
looked up 0 332 514 120. the old L jet dual relay! explains why i have the newer plastic one, like Van B has under the battery tray instead of the original metal one. another thing that was needed to make the car go back in 89. i wouldn't have even noticed or known what it was back then. smile.gif big ticket item. more expensive than the injectors!

Posted by: L-Jet914 Aug 29 2022, 08:22 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=24231 For your data to correct the information you have on my 914 regarding the headlight motor covers, rear trunk pad and blower motor tubing. 4/74 production date. I saw you posted non-original rigid pad with what I think is a question mark? Unless it's for a different VIN. I have grey headlight motor covers, black plastic corrugated tubing for the blower motor and the lightweight foam pad for the rear trunk pad. I know my 914 never had the recall performed due to no sticker placed in the specific location next to the build plate in the front trunk.


Attached thumbnail(s)
Attached Image Attached Image Attached Image

Posted by: JeffBowlsby Aug 29 2022, 10:09 PM

Next thing to figure out is how to determine the Dist./Dealer numbers for tyhe sticker.

Posted by: wonkipop Aug 30 2022, 01:51 AM

QUOTE(L-Jet914 @ Aug 29 2022, 08:22 PM) *

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=24231 For your data to correct the information you have on my 914 regarding the headlight motor covers, rear trunk pad and blower motor tubing. 4/74 production date. I saw you posted non-original rigid pad with what I think is a question mark? Unless it's for a different VIN. I have grey headlight motor covers, black plastic corrugated tubing for the blower motor and the lightweight foam pad for the rear trunk pad. I know my 914 never had the recall performed due to no sticker placed in the specific location next to the build plate in the front trunk.


hey thanks L Jet. i'll include the info in your section of spread sheet. beerchug.gif

and yes, those details i squeezed in across your entry in the spreadsheet were for a different car which i marked up with a vin #. it was one i found in between your car and next entry.

as it is you have the last car in our data with the grey head light motor covers.
nice handy bit of data to have.

out of interest does your car still have its orig tool kit.
if so what is the screwdriver. white or black. biggrin.gif

Posted by: wonkipop Aug 30 2022, 01:54 AM

QUOTE(JeffBowlsby @ Aug 29 2022, 10:09 PM) *

Next thing to figure out is how to determine the Dist./Dealer numbers for tyhe sticker.


thats a job for you mr. b biggrin.gif biggrin.gif

or steve. i'm over my files for a while. smile.gif

Posted by: StarBear Aug 30 2022, 11:34 AM

QUOTE(JeffBowlsby @ Aug 30 2022, 12:09 AM) *

Next thing to figure out is how to determine the Dist./Dealer numbers for tyhe sticker.

I'm lucky - I have my work order sheet from the dealer; its numbers are listed on the masthead!
BTW: revised the actual dimensions (did the wrong ratio comparison from the red car photo).

Posted by: Van B Aug 30 2022, 12:09 PM

I'll be no help there as mine definitely does not have that sticker. I'm curious enough though I may look through the years of records and see if there is a service receipt though.

Posted by: StarBear Aug 30 2022, 01:32 PM

QUOTE(Van B @ Aug 30 2022, 02:09 PM) *

I'll be no help there as mine definitely does not have that sticker. I'm curious enough though I may look through the years of records and see if there is a service receipt though.


@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=8571 B
@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=104
@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=24231
@Big Len

If you'd like me to send you a pair of stickers (one for trial, one for use), just let me know, as well as "aged" (slightly mottled tan/beige background) or "better" (slightly mottled cream/light tan background). I've printed them on standard Avery peel-back shipping labels, and cut to size.

Posted by: wonkipop Aug 30 2022, 04:42 PM

QUOTE(Van B @ Aug 30 2022, 12:09 PM) *

I'll be no help there as mine definitely does not have that sticker. I'm curious enough though I may look through the years of records and see if there is a service receipt though.


i ran across the ad for your car @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=26011 while i was snooping around for plastic fuel tank examples. thats an amazingly good car you picked up. i saw the photo of the pile of records!

Posted by: wonkipop Aug 30 2022, 04:47 PM

QUOTE(StarBear @ Aug 30 2022, 01:32 PM) *

QUOTE(Van B @ Aug 30 2022, 02:09 PM) *

I'll be no help there as mine definitely does not have that sticker. I'm curious enough though I may look through the years of records and see if there is a service receipt though.


Van;
@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=104
@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=24231
@Big Len

If you'd like me to send you a pair of stickers (one for trial, one for use), just let me know, as well as "aged" (slightly mottled tan/beige background) or "better" (slightly mottled cream/light tan background). I've printed them on standard Avery peel-back shipping labels, and cut to size.


def never done to mine. looked back through all the records i have and that i got in 89.

i think i know why. if the recall was done in 77 that was after the first owners left DC and moved to the mid west. capital porsche audi would have sent a recall notice to their old address and been unable to contact them. service records after 76 show the owners took the car to an independent import shop. car's annual miles dropped dramatically from 77 on. no miles from 86-89. so the sticker is not a legit part of my car history.
i'd be reasonably certain that the original factory installed injectors and fuel lines back to the tunnel were what i had removed in 89 to get the car going again. though we left the plastic fuel lines in the engine bay. back then they were still juicy and flexible.

however i would offer those stickers to folks doing restorations @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=10753 .
def a worthwhile asset for perfectionists out there. have noticed that a few of the 1.8s on the files i collected for ECA/B research had the sticker.

Posted by: Van B Aug 30 2022, 05:24 PM

QUOTE(StarBear @ Aug 30 2022, 03:32 PM) *

QUOTE(Van B @ Aug 30 2022, 02:09 PM) *

I'll be no help there as mine definitely does not have that sticker. I'm curious enough though I may look through the years of records and see if there is a service receipt though.


Van;
@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=104
@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=24231
@Big Len

If you'd like me to send you a pair of stickers (one for trial, one for use), just let me know, as well as "aged" (slightly mottled tan/beige background) or "better" (slightly mottled cream/light tan background). I've printed them on standard Avery peel-back shipping labels, and cut to size.


That sounds fun. Probably the better version for me please. I’m looking forward to installing the first gift you sent me last year when I finally get around to refinishing the engine tins!

Posted by: Van B Aug 30 2022, 05:27 PM

QUOTE(wonkipop @ Aug 30 2022, 06:42 PM) *

QUOTE(Van B @ Aug 30 2022, 12:09 PM) *

I'll be no help there as mine definitely does not have that sticker. I'm curious enough though I may look through the years of records and see if there is a service receipt though.


i ran across the ad for your car @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=26011 while i was snooping around for plastic fuel tank examples. thats an amazingly good car you picked up. i saw the photo of the pile of records!

Yeah, it came with a life story for sure… and it was on the brink of going south when I got it. The rust in the engine bay wells was 100% caused by the piles of acorns in each well. Getting the FI sorted saved me an engine rebuild too. Prior to that, the car gave the same feeling that the engine was tired and low on compression… the compression was actually from spark plugs that wouldn’t seat if you recall lol!

Posted by: wonkipop Aug 30 2022, 05:42 PM

QUOTE(Van B @ Aug 30 2022, 05:24 PM) *

QUOTE(StarBear @ Aug 30 2022, 03:32 PM) *

QUOTE(Van B @ Aug 30 2022, 02:09 PM) *

I'll be no help there as mine definitely does not have that sticker. I'm curious enough though I may look through the years of records and see if there is a service receipt though.


Van;
@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=104
@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=24231
@Big Len

If you'd like me to send you a pair of stickers (one for trial, one for use), just let me know, as well as "aged" (slightly mottled tan/beige background) or "better" (slightly mottled cream/light tan background). I've printed them on standard Avery peel-back shipping labels, and cut to size.


That sounds fun. Probably the better version for me please. I’m looking forward to installing the first gift you sent me last year when I finally get around to refinishing the engine tins!


@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=10753 is doing a re-issue of those stickers to do the one with the two hoses. wait for that one - correct for EC-B.
he has got it all covered when he does that and can offer a full service to the classic L jet owner. beer.gif beerchug.gif pray.gif

Posted by: wonkipop Aug 30 2022, 06:16 PM

i have hoovered up all the 74 2.0L off BAT and have just started to go through them looking to see if data closes up on some of those changes.

snagged a reasonably original restored 2.0 that looks pretty trustworthy.
plastic expansion tank dated a tiny bit earlier to build date monday 27 may 74.
narrows down change by one day.

also pulled up a first day of production 74 2.0.
vin # -00046.
K = 3319553
= mon 13 aug 73. looks like the date they fired up production after summer break.

also found a very high vin number 2.0, have to check it out yet, but might be close to end.

after i go through it all will see if the data closes up on any of progressive changes.


Posted by: L-Jet914 Aug 30 2022, 08:16 PM

QUOTE(wonkipop @ Aug 30 2022, 12:51 AM) *

QUOTE(L-Jet914 @ Aug 29 2022, 08:22 PM) *

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=24231 For your data to correct the information you have on my 914 regarding the headlight motor covers, rear trunk pad and blower motor tubing. 4/74 production date. I saw you posted non-original rigid pad with what I think is a question mark? Unless it's for a different VIN. I have grey headlight motor covers, black plastic corrugated tubing for the blower motor and the lightweight foam pad for the rear trunk pad. I know my 914 never had the recall performed due to no sticker placed in the specific location next to the build plate in the front trunk.


hey thanks L Jet. i'll include the info in your section of spread sheet. beerchug.gif

and yes, those details i squeezed in across your entry in the spreadsheet were for a different car which i marked up with a vin #. it was one i found in between your car and next entry.

as it is you have the last car in our data with the grey head light motor covers.
nice handy bit of data to have.

out of interest does your car still have its orig tool kit.
if so what is the screwdriver. white or black. biggrin.gif


Found the original tool kit. The black bar is currently stored under the driver seat where my father left it in case he had to use it as a self defense item which is what he told me lol. White screw driver. I will always wonder why Porsche added the center cap removal tool when the center caps on the 914's did not have the two little holes in them to remove them like the 911s did.


Attached thumbnail(s)
Attached Image

Posted by: wonkipop Aug 30 2022, 08:31 PM

QUOTE(L-Jet914 @ Aug 30 2022, 08:16 PM) *

QUOTE(wonkipop @ Aug 30 2022, 12:51 AM) *

QUOTE(L-Jet914 @ Aug 29 2022, 08:22 PM) *

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=24231 For your data to correct the information you have on my 914 regarding the headlight motor covers, rear trunk pad and blower motor tubing. 4/74 production date. I saw you posted non-original rigid pad with what I think is a question mark? Unless it's for a different VIN. I have grey headlight motor covers, black plastic corrugated tubing for the blower motor and the lightweight foam pad for the rear trunk pad. I know my 914 never had the recall performed due to no sticker placed in the specific location next to the build plate in the front trunk.


hey thanks L Jet. i'll include the info in your section of spread sheet. beerchug.gif

and yes, those details i squeezed in across your entry in the spreadsheet were for a different car which i marked up with a vin #. it was one i found in between your car and next entry.

as it is you have the last car in our data with the grey head light motor covers.
nice handy bit of data to have.

out of interest does your car still have its orig tool kit.
if so what is the screwdriver. white or black. biggrin.gif


Found the original tool kit. The black bar is currently stored under the driver seat where my father left it in case he had to use it as a self defense item which is what he told me lol. White screw driver. I will always wonder why Porsche added the center cap removal tool when the center caps on the 914's did not have the two little holes in them to remove them like the 911s did.


great - another white screw driver.

the hub cap puller is there because its just a standard VW tool kit across all models.
the k g and the 412 still had hub cabs. most beetles and things as well. not sure about the beetle cabs, a lot of them seemed to get the star steelie similar to 914. never the less standard army rations when it came to tool kit so hence the hub cap puller.

i used to know a girl kept an tomahawk axe under the front seat of her car for the same reason your dad kept the black bar there. she knew how to use it too, her grandfather trained her in the "weaponisation". you don't want to know where she intended to aim it. blink.gif

Posted by: L-Jet914 Aug 30 2022, 09:12 PM

You seem so enthused to see another white screw driver. laugh.gif The worker at the factory, today you get a black screw driver. Oh next car in line you get a white screw driver haha.

Posted by: JeffBowlsby Aug 30 2022, 09:15 PM

QUOTE(StarBear @ Aug 30 2022, 12:32 PM) *

QUOTE(Van B @ Aug 30 2022, 02:09 PM) *

I'll be no help there as mine definitely does not have that sticker. I'm curious enough though I may look through the years of records and see if there is a service receipt though.


Van;
@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=104
@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=24231
@Big Len

If you'd like me to send you a pair of stickers (one for trial, one for use), just let me know, as well as "aged" (slightly mottled tan/beige background) or "better" (slightly mottled cream/light tan background). I've printed them on standard Avery peel-back shipping labels, and cut to size.


Count me in on this! Will send PM with address. Thanks!

Posted by: wonkipop Aug 30 2022, 09:24 PM

QUOTE(L-Jet914 @ Aug 30 2022, 09:12 PM) *

You seem so enthused to see another white screw driver. laugh.gif The worker at the factory, today you get a black screw driver. Oh next car in line you get a white screw driver haha.


i've happened to notice that all the repro tool kits that various vendors have are black screwdriver jobs. biggrin.gif

and a few years back looking into various threads on websites, here and elsewhere all the images were of black as well.

so i almost began to doubt mine, even though its been there since 89 and i had no reason to believe it was not the one that came with the car. car had everything else, all books, docs etc.

so its great to see it was just a reach in and grab a bag out of the bin job on the assembly line. beerchug.gif and white was in there and legit. beer.gif

Posted by: StarBear Aug 31 2022, 06:26 AM

QUOTE(StarBear @ Aug 30 2022, 03:32 PM) *

QUOTE(Van B @ Aug 30 2022, 02:09 PM) *

I'll be no help there as mine definitely does not have that sticker. I'm curious enough though I may look through the years of records and see if there is a service receipt though.


@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=8571
@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=104
@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=24231
@Big Len

If you'd like me to send you a pair of stickers (one for trial, one for use), just let me know, as well as "aged" (slightly mottled tan/beige background) or "better" (slightly mottled cream/light tan background). I've printed them on standard Avery peel-back shipping labels, and cut to size.


Posted by: wonkipop Aug 31 2022, 08:35 AM

here is another HO recall sticker from the files for you @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=10753 .

interesting - this dealer used some kind of sticky tape with typed details pasted on top of recall sticker. not all handwritten. biggrin.gif biggrin.gif sad.gif

Attached Image
Attached Image

Posted by: StarBear Aug 31 2022, 08:53 AM

QUOTE(wonkipop @ Aug 31 2022, 10:35 AM) *

here is another HO recall sticker from the files for you @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=10753 .

interesting - this dealer used some kind of sticky tape with typed details pasted on top of recall sticker. not all handwritten. biggrin.gif biggrin.gif sad.gif

Attached Image
Attached Image

Thanks. Interesting. Most seem to be affixed to the wheel well in that spot. The recall instructions on Jeff’s website are confusing - “next to vehicle ID plate” (down by headlight) yet also “on wheel well”.

Posted by: wonkipop Aug 31 2022, 04:31 PM

QUOTE(StarBear @ Aug 31 2022, 08:53 AM) *

QUOTE(wonkipop @ Aug 31 2022, 10:35 AM) *

here is another HO recall sticker from the files for you @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=10753 .

interesting - this dealer used some kind of sticky tape with typed details pasted on top of recall sticker. not all handwritten. biggrin.gif biggrin.gif sad.gif



Thanks. Interesting. Most seem to be affixed to the wheel well in that spot. The recall instructions on Jeff’s website are confusing - “next to vehicle ID plate” (down by headlight) yet also “on wheel well”.


vehicle I D plate is the one on the headlight bucket.

as an aside i have seen a non USA, UK delivered 73 914 and can recall all the differences with the cars. that plate down by the headlight bucket is the one on non USA cars and was used by authorities to identify cars for registration. no vin sticker like usa cars. non usa cars also still had the chassis no. stamped on top of wheel arch.
but the I D plate is the affixed plate.

so if jeff has the accurate factory instructions the correct place is in fact down on the headlight bucket not on the wheel arch.

beerchug.gif

Posted by: wonkipop Aug 31 2022, 05:49 PM

some more esoteric trivia for you guys. biggrin.gif
@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=26011 @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=104 @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=10753 @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=15080
purely as a result of trawling back through all the images collected for various 74 1.8s - but now with some added 74 914 2.0 stuff.

OWNERS MANUALS. biggrin.gif

we knew from earlier emissions warranty materials provided by Van B and L-Jet that there was an X/73 (oct 73) em w that was the first version for 1.8s and then XI/73 (Nov/73) a second version was introduced. i have that one (jan 74 car) and L-Jet (april.74) has it. and there was a VIII/73 (aug 73) version first and this was for the first batch of 2.0L cars made in late 73 before 1.8s came into production.

now i am able to look at the owners manual with it in the satchel.

seems to get interesting.
all these manuals are trustworthy as coming with the cars originally.
sales images showed open pages with correct chassis details and original dealer service stamps.

1. OWNERS MANUAL + EMISSIONS WARRANTY. 08/73 914 2.0 Vin -03827

as previously worked out the emissions warranty only applies to 2.0 L car variant.
this image shows there was also a full owners manual - cover marked only 914.
different to some later manuals after 1.8 start production.
seems to be a first batch of o mans + em w that are specifically only for 2.0L -
further evidence only 2.0 L was in production from 08/74 to late 10/74.
at least for USA.
satchel is burgundy. can't determine interior color. maybe dark blue from sliver visible in image.

Attached Image
Attached Image


2. OM + EM W. 12/73 914 1.8 Vin -10487

second version of owners manual and emissions warranty.
(or could be third ems and ? on the om as identifying pages with edition details not available).
cover now has 914 2.0 1.8 printed on it. same with em w.
burgundy satchel. can't determine interior color. maybe light grey from sliver visible.

Attached Image


3. O M + EM W 12/73 914 1.8 Vin -10723

starts to get interesting compared to 10487 (less than 300 cars later).

first version of owners manual (at least for cover - or is a second version).
same cover as earlier 2.0 L cars - nothing printed there except 914.
emissions warranty is either second or third version. has 2.0 1.8 printed on it.
satchel is burgundy with a grey color interior.

Attached Image

4. O M + EM W 01/74 914 1.8 Vin -12472

this is the car that is virtually identical to mine, phoenix red etc that is built 2 weeks earlier.
no emissions warranty images.
owners manual has cover with only 914 written on it.
satchel is burgundy with light grey interior.

Attached Image
Attached Image


5. O M + EM W 01/74 914 1.8 Vin -13361

this is my car. two weeks after example 4.
i have the owners manual with 914 2.0 1.8 on the cover.
additionally i know the details of the edition.
4652.23 10M XI/73 Edition 74.
translates as the November Revision.
the emissions warranty also has 2.0 1.8 on the cover.
4654.23 12 400 XI/73 Edition 74
translates as November Revision.
from previous research we all worked out this is probably the third version of the emissions warranty.
whether its a second or third version of owners manual?
satchel is burgundy with dark blue interior.

Attached Image
Attached Image


there is some pretty mixed up stuff going on.
a bit like the tool kit with random white or black screw drivers.

it looks to me like things get a bit scrambled from late oct to early/mid jan 74 where they might be mixing up different versions of the owners manual with emissions warranties.
they definitely have two different versions of the satchel floating around.
there appears to be an earlier satchel that is burgundy exterior with burgundy interior flaps and light grey interior backing and a later version which has burgundy exterior and full dark blue interior (flaps and backing). looks like later version kicks in some time during jan 74?

some of the differences make you think that maybe dealers asssembled these manual/warranty packs with whatever they had in the boxes at the time and were not necessarily keeping up or getting the right combos? things got a bit hectic oct to dec 73?

be interesting to see what you guys have.
given @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=26011 has a 12/73 car and @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=10753 has an 11/73.
@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=15080 has the 04/74.


as a side note - what i picked up from BAT is if they show an owners manual image but don't have additional images of dealer details/stamp page its not the manual/warranties that came with the car. often don't have satchels either.

presently looking very closely at some 12/73 cars sold more recently as 2.0 L cars.
got my doubts they were real. think some 1.8s met a fate as 2.0L fluff ups decades ago.
interesting. any 2.0L between late oct 73 and end of jan 74 ought to be very closely looked at by potential buyers. esp if the premium is being applied to the price?

beerchug.gif

Posted by: StarBear Sep 1 2022, 07:59 AM

Here are mine. Emissions booklet is an original but not to mine; not sure what happened to mine or if I ever got one. confused24.gif
Attached Image
Attached Image
Attached Image

Posted by: Van B Sep 1 2022, 03:39 PM

Just checked my cover and it looks just like Steve’s. I don’t have the tech spec book though.

Posted by: wonkipop Sep 1 2022, 04:13 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=10753 and @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=26011 .

thanks for checking those.
you both have the same OM as me. the XI/73.

i did a bit of snooping on ebay image search and discovered the X/73 OM (october) in detail.
914 only on front cover.
covered inclusion of the 1.8 with a slipped in loose sheet spec/performance chart.
by the time they do the XI/73 version which we all have that spec sheet for the 1.8 is included in the OM itself.

example i found def came with a 1.8.
model no. is marked in the back of the OM. 473534.
thanks to jeff's brilliant website i could translate this as 1974 49 states appearance group 1.8 in 2 seconds flat.
its Vin -10827 puts it in right around @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=26011 's car. approx 10 Dec 1973.

so
october 73 they issued this X/73 OM with just 914 on cover along with an X/73 EM W that had 2.0,1.8 on the cover (Van B example of emission warranty frunk can version?). they did a print run of 2000 of these X/73 OM. that would be about a months worth of cars if you said they did around 100 a day at most on production line.

print run makes sense in terms of then going to the XI/73 OM in november.

a few dealers probably still had these october ones lying around suitable for 1.8s and were providing them with the cars into 1974 calendar year - esp if they were not turning over a lot of cars. explains the phoenix red car 2 weeks before mine with the 914 only cover. its likely got this X/73 OM which is legit for a 1.8 early on.

so.
there is an earlier version of this OM which must be dated VIII/73 and its for 2.0 L only from august - oct 73. it is the other 914 only cover OM.


Attached Image
Attached Image
Attached Image
Attached Image

the slipped in spec sheet for the 1.8 which had just started production.
Attached Image

spec sheet is incorporated into the body of the OM we have (XI/73 version).
Attached Image

i realise this is esoteric.
but what i like about it is it shows that VW and Porsche were really scrambling to get those 1.8s into production and into the showrooms in time.
quite a turbulent period for them.
i think they did a good job confronting emissions laws without losing too much performance from such tiny engines.

beerchug.gif

i reckon there is only three versions of the OM for 74 MY.
VIII/73
X/73
XI/73.
i have not stumbled on anything after XI/73.


EDIT 01/AUGUST/23.

found earliest edition of the first owners manual for only the 2.0 L cars being produced in 1973 from aug to late oct. its dated V!/73. july. its the same as the german market edition date that i noted from a while back on next page of this thread. comes from a very original condition 2.0 L car recently for sale on BAT and is very trustworthy. a lot of documentation was published with the car. emission warranty dated X/73. car vin 4742907141 10/74. week 44 production plate. from very late in that run of 2.0 L cars just before production of 1.8 starts in late oct 73 and the factory appears to switch over to producing only 1.8s for at least 2-3 months from nov 73 to end of jan 74.

Attached Image
Attached Image
Attached Image
Attached Image

Posted by: wonkipop Sep 1 2022, 05:13 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=10753 and @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=26011 .

if i wanted to read too much into this X/73 OM,
and do the naughty thing of taking a leap off the data - i'd think this.

the 1.8 was originally scheduled for production introduction at the end of Nov/start of Dec 73?

VW wanted the lions share of initial EC engine production (from Aug 73) for the mass market 412. but it was a dud. thats known. sales went over the cliff and it was on the way out.

I think what happened is VW slowed production of the 412 and the engine became available for the 914 a little earlier in late Oct?

alternatively - bosch were initially projecting less supply of the new L Jet, but were able to ramp up production beyond initial estimates.

explains a few things.

like 3-4 weeks of 1.8s with frunk charcoal cans.
what looks like a bit of a hasty lash up interim owners manual which is a short run reprint of the 2.0 manual? --- with an insert.

i am starting to think that the changeover from frunk charcoal can set up to engine bay charcoal can set up was scheduled for the start of 1.8 production and was maybe intended to be a more orderly update with the new variant of the small engine.

but instead they used up stocks of what was intended to be 2.0 L body panel pressings, fuel tanks etc in the initial early run of 1.8s that had been brought forward.

just a thought?

Posted by: wonkipop Sep 1 2022, 06:08 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=104 .

don't know if you have one of these mr. b.
customer i d card still in owners manual.
for your files if interesting.
found it searching for 74 o m material last night.



Attached Image

Posted by: StarBear Sep 1 2022, 07:01 PM

I wonder what the “2 M” and “10 M” before the Roman numerals represent. confused24.gif

Posted by: wonkipop Sep 1 2022, 07:11 PM

QUOTE(StarBear @ Sep 1 2022, 07:01 PM) *

I wonder what the “2 M” and “10 M” before the Roman numerals represent. confused24.gif


a thousand. M is roman numeral for 1000.

don't worry i am dumb too. davep pointed that one out to me. beer.gif

2M = 2000 print run. beerchug.gif

Posted by: L-Jet914 Sep 1 2022, 07:55 PM

I know my owner's manual portfolio/satchel is burgundy with dark blue interior.

Posted by: StarBear Sep 2 2022, 05:53 AM

QUOTE(wonkipop @ Sep 1 2022, 09:11 PM) *

QUOTE(StarBear @ Sep 1 2022, 07:01 PM) *

I wonder what the “2 M” and “10 M” before the Roman numerals represent. confused24.gif


a thousand. M is roman numeral for 1000.

don't worry i am dumb too. davep pointed that one out to me. beer.gif

2M = 2000 print run. beerchug.gif
EDIT: Perhaps the print run - 2 M = 2,000; 10 M = 10,000?


Posted by: wonkipop Sep 3 2022, 03:04 AM

QUOTE(StarBear @ Sep 2 2022, 05:53 AM) *

QUOTE(wonkipop @ Sep 1 2022, 09:11 PM) *

QUOTE(StarBear @ Sep 1 2022, 07:01 PM) *

I wonder what the “2 M” and “10 M” before the Roman numerals represent. confused24.gif


a thousand. M is roman numeral for 1000.

don't worry i am dumb too. davep pointed that one out to me. beer.gif

2M = 2000 print run. beerchug.gif
EDIT: Perhaps the print run - 2 M = 2,000; 10 M = 10,000?



yep

but they are all over the place - given what we think of as german precision and consistency. they don't use the M on the emissions warranty. only on the owners manual.

for instance the emissions warranty i have says 12 400 rather than 12.4 M?

dry.gif


Posted by: davep Sep 3 2022, 11:02 AM

I believe it depended a lot on the person doing the typesetting (probably at the printer) more than any convention on how to do it.

Posted by: wonkipop Sep 3 2022, 05:43 PM

QUOTE(davep @ Sep 3 2022, 11:02 AM) *

I believe it depended a lot on the person doing the typesetting (probably at the printer) more than any convention on how to do it.


dunno.
think its some kind of porsche convention.
seemed to be same with 911s too.
they definitely flip to conventional numerals in 75 MY. both 914s and 911s.
but not straight away.
the first 75 914 OM had roman. VI/74.
then there is one in december that is 12/74.

VW always used modern numerals as far as i can tell for their OMs (at least from 70 anyway).

i haven't got a 911 emissions warranty as a result of my rabbit hole excursions into the birth of L jet. but i might look for one. just to see if its the same as 914 ones.

i'm inclined to think the emissions warranties for 914s (at least later ones - say 73 on) are VW managed decisions and might explain modern numerals. but that owners manuals were a Porsche managed decision and conformed to porsche conventions?

the 914 OMs share the design, typo, layout with the 911s. probably done by erich strenger in his porsche graphics department? who knows?
they are very nicely done by someone with a real eye for design and have beautiful and striking covers thats for sure.

Posted by: wonkipop Sep 6 2022, 04:55 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=10753 @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=26011 @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=104

there is a similar pattern of owners manual versions going on with the european models in 74.

found an original print run german owners manual on ebay.



1. original german owners manual.
date is VI/73. June 1973.
earlier date than any USA o m that i have found, they are all VIII/73.
they were setting these up for printing right at end of 73 MY.
as per USA this early one has 914 only on cover.
if consistent with USA that means only 2.0L cars were being produced for ROW at start of 74 model year production.

Attached Image
Attached Image



2. reprint issue of german owners manual.
date is X/73. october 1973.
this is same month as first versions of om for USA cars inclusive of the 1.8 model.
the cover matches the USA ones of that time as now has 1.8/2.0 on cover.
whether its entirely trustworthy since its a reprint is hard to know.
i'm guessing it would be a faithful repro of the original issue.

Attached Image
Attached Image


indication is that euro 1.8 with carb engine also was held up until late october 1973 alongside the USA L jet 1.8s? but not entirely conclusive.


---------

bonus for @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=26011 .
stumbled across german 74 1.8 technical supplement similar to the one @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=104 has for the USA L jets.
full spec comparison between the L jet and the dual carb euro engine.
nice peppy little motor in the euro cars.
pretty much had the same grunt as later 75/76 USA 2.0 L cars.
could way outperform USA L jets on steep alpine roads thats for sure. beerchug.gif

Attached Image
Attached Image

Posted by: Van B Sep 6 2022, 07:10 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=24231 that is great. Seems like compression and premium fuel is all you need. Would love to confirm the heads and cam are the same. But I would be very surprised if they were different. Given the objectives for this 914, it wouldn’t make sense to have that many varieties of engine parts.

Posted by: wonkipop Sep 6 2022, 11:50 PM

QUOTE(Van B @ Sep 6 2022, 07:10 PM) *

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=24231 that is great. Seems like compression and premium fuel is all you need. Would love to confirm the heads and cam are the same. But I would be very surprised if they were different. Given the objectives for this 914, it wouldn’t make sense to have that many varieties of engine parts.


using the parts list catalogue (i have both, the USA version and the european version) - pistons are different. parts manual lists cylinder and piston with all piston parts but not rods as a single item.
euro 1.8 = 021 198 075 D
usa 1.8 = 022 198 075 A

the same camshaft is called up in both parts manuals and is universal to all 4s including 1.7. although i am yet to understand what all the various listings mean when referring to +1 wheel etc. will have to ask mike. or maybe you know.
but really it appears to be just the pistons.

the heads are different.
two head part # listed for 1.8 L jet
022 107 111 A
022 101 351 CX
and for euro
021 101 351 S
PCG 101 351 SX
have not got to the bottom of that.

if vw/porsche had done L jet on euro 1.8s i think they might have developed a tiny bit more horsepower as this seemed to be the case with all the fuel injected engines versus carb versions for the lesser VW models. expense was a factor i guess in going back to carbs for the final small engine 914.

be a great idea to do a trick L jet. looks stock but can at least punch out 10 more hp behind the plain clothes disquise.
be quick enough to give a few folks in stock 2.0 L cars a run for the money - while you stand around and just shrug your shoulders. feed it a diet of 98 ron unleaded.

stick a nice flow exhaust on it to cap it all off. driving.gif

Posted by: StarBear Sep 7 2022, 11:25 AM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=24231
@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=8571
@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=104
I think I read somewhere that there is supposed to be a little spring under the idle adjustment screw to keep tension on it. See pic. Don’t have one on mine, using Teflon tape.
True or not?
If so, is there a spec or part number?
Parts diagrams just show the whole throttle body, not the pieces.
Thanks!
Attached Image

Posted by: StarBear Sep 7 2022, 11:30 AM

FYI, a 1974 2.0 in my mechanics shop. Owner has found a stamp for the tin numbers and experimented with technics to produce this amazing replica.
Attached Image
Attached Image

Posted by: wonkipop Sep 7 2022, 04:52 PM

QUOTE(StarBear @ Sep 7 2022, 11:25 AM) *

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=24231
@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=8571
@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=104
I think I read somewhere that there is supposed to be a little spring under the idle adjustment screw to keep tension on it. See pic. Don’t have one on mine, using Teflon tape.
True or not?
If so, is there a spec or part number?
Parts diagrams just show the whole throttle body, not the pieces.
Thanks!



far as i know no spring on 1.8 TB.
then again never had idle screw out to find out.
if is there is completely recessed behind screw in the bore and not visible.
but i don't believe there is.

might be on 1,7. looks different?

there are no exploded diagrams of TB - its a kind of non maintenance part unlike carbies.
it was relatively common to take carbies apart back in the day for cleaning.
you need the exploded diagram to put those back together.
suspect idea of EFI TB was no touch/no need to touch - hence no info.

a little bit of gasket sealant on threads would hold it steady if its worn.
the screw on mine is still reasonably firm in the thread.

Attached Image

Posted by: wonkipop Sep 7 2022, 04:56 PM

QUOTE(StarBear @ Sep 7 2022, 11:30 AM) *

FYI, a 1974 2.0 in my mechanics shop. Owner has found a stamp for the tin numbers and experimented with technics to produce this amazing replica.



nice.
good reconstruction of the model german worker version.

you would need to have had 4 six packs the night before and do the stamping at 8.00am the next morning to get the superb artistry evident on the engine in mine.

its kind of fantastic to see restoration taken to that level.
most tinware restos i see take the finish to a level beyond anything the factory could be bothered with and unfortunately obliterate the drunken supermarket shelf numbers.

Posted by: StarBear Sep 7 2022, 05:23 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=24231
@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=17042
Ok; that’s my guess, too. No height for one nor shelf inside for one. I’ve used a single wrap of Teflon tape - holds but still allows air bleed.
On to other tidbits! beer3.gif

Posted by: wonkipop Sep 18 2022, 03:37 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=10753

i cracked the mystery of the 021 905 205 S distributor that superseded original distributors (022 905 205AA). you might remember you brought this up back when we started off on the EC-A/EC-B rabbit hole more than a year ago. we couldn't work out the why and the what of the S distributor replacement that was listed.


Attached Image


the 021 905 205 S distributor was staring at me in the face.
its listed on the original CARB emissions approval documents for the VW 412 and VW 1,8 bus.

it is the original distributor for the 412. except its listed as an 022 on CARB docs and as an 021 in the 914 parts manual. i am pretty sure that all that means is that 022 = US 1.8 engine and 021 means european 1.8 AN engine. i believe USA 412 used same distributor as euro 412 and euro 914 1.8.

Attached Image


and pics below show what it looks like.
VW 412 variant engine bay and sedan engine bay

Attached Image

Attached Image

its a single vac cannister distributor.
vac advance only.
no retard.
412s did not use vac retard at idle to clean up to pass emissions.
they had exhaust gas recirculation. did their clean up at cruise not idle.

conclusion.
the replacement distributor would do away with vac retard at idle.
make the 914 run cooler at idle but dirtier.
looks like that was the official VW and Porsche response to NLA double vac can distributors that went out of production. use the vac advance only model to replace.

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=26011 might have a view on this. ie distributor curve at back off on throttle.
but looks like VW just did away with the retard as a replacement part at some point in time - probably after their statutory obligations to emissions warranties and spare parts provisions ceased. 10 years after manufacture?

you can also see it in engine bay of 1,8 914 in porsche museum.
this is the replacement S distributor they offer.

Posted by: wonkipop Sep 18 2022, 03:48 PM

here is the euro 1.8 with the 021 number of the S distributor.
be the same as the 022 version originally listed for USA 412s.



Attached Image

Posted by: Van B Sep 18 2022, 08:24 PM

Since the vacuum can has it’s own PN, I’m sure the assumption was that you’d use the appropriate can for the model.

Posted by: wonkipop Sep 18 2022, 11:26 PM

QUOTE(Van B @ Sep 18 2022, 08:24 PM) *

Since the vacuum can has it’s own PN, I’m sure the assumption was that you’d use the appropriate can for the model.


yep, thats what i am thinking.

assuming you can get hold of one of these S distributors still?
and given your friends in houston texas at that great shop with the double vac cans.
and if you really wanted to get particular, search out a speed limiting rotor too.
(i think the texas guys them on their website).
you could get yourself a brand spanking new (almost) original set up distributor.

VW would definitely have had to have been doing it this way.
modular thinking?

meaning you could reproduce overheating the heads at idle in a traffic jam on a hot day in australia while you smiled at the smug do gooder in the tesla beside you knowing you were keeping your NOX down and your CO2 overproducing. biggrin.gif beerchug.gif

Posted by: wonkipop Oct 15 2022, 06:10 PM

ENGINE BAY INSULATION PAD - 1974 1.8

another esoteric detail picked up sifting through research material for EC-A/B. @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=10753 @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=26011

appears to be two different types of engine bay pad -------maybe?
a grey one and a black one?

maybe @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=104 knows the answer to this one?
maybe its in Dr. Johnson's book but not sure, but not in edition i have.
he doesn't really do engine bay in detail in first ed on my shelf.

at first thought maybe the black finish pads i was seeing =
either owners repainting or refinishing the pad or
replacing the pad with an aftermarket pad of a different construction.

that is until i looked at photos sent by porsche museum of dr. marchart 74 1.8 in the collection. has a black insulation pad. maybe they restored this car?
but in most respects it looks very original to me. it might have been given a light touch refresh. ??? (don't have a month of production date on porsche collection car).

Attached Image

i believed all the engine bay pads were the same. similar to mine.
grey coloured pad.
mine is 01/74 build car.

Attached Image


more examples of the typical grey pad i thought was standard.
production dates scattered right through model year.

11-73

Attached Image

12-73

Attached Image

02-74

Attached Image

06-74

Attached Image

most of the 74s i have on file are grey.


----

however then there are these.
they look pretty much the same as porsche collection car.
black with a different kind of ripple like finish.

11-73

Attached Image

12-73

Attached Image

05-74

Attached Image

05-74

Attached Image


------

you can find examples of both types in 75 1.8s as well.
eg

11-74 grey

Attached Image

11-74 black

Attached Image


quick scout of 73 1.7s only turned up grey ones.

Attached Image



?????????? confused24.gif

Posted by: Van B Oct 15 2022, 08:35 PM

Tough to say if mine was grey or faded black. But the back was a synthetic upholstery wool, heavy, and held moisture like a fat pig… as I learned.

Regardless, it went into the trash and I now have a modern closed cell foam piece that will go in.

Posted by: StarBear Oct 16 2022, 10:03 AM

Here’s mine. Sort of dark gray. Original. Haven’t ever taken it off so can’t tell if it’s the stuff Van noted. bye1.gif
Attached Image

Posted by: wonkipop Oct 16 2022, 05:15 PM

QUOTE(StarBear @ Oct 16 2022, 10:03 AM) *

Here’s mine. Sort of dark gray. Original. Haven’t ever taken it off so can’t tell if it’s the stuff Van noted. bye1.gif
Attached Image



yes. same as mine. and most original cars.
i think they are meant to be grey.

even though all the black ones look to be the same material, which made me think it was some kind of factory variant, it is perhaps likely that they are replacements, using a common source for a replacement a few years back (or decades).

a lot of the black ones don't appear to have correct factory fixings whn you look close, including the one in the porsche museum.

i'm thinking the black ripple material versions might be what they made 911 engine pads out of a few years back?

interesting because that blue 1.8 that was on BAT a few months back claiming to be a 20K + miles car does not have a factory grey sound pad!

Posted by: L-Jet914 Oct 27 2022, 04:27 PM

My firewall pad. 4/74 build date. Greyish now. But may have been black. I seem to be missing a clip to hold the center in place haha.


Attached image(s)
Attached Image

Posted by: wonkipop Oct 28 2022, 03:51 PM

QUOTE(L-Jet914 @ Oct 27 2022, 04:27 PM) *

My firewall pad. 4/74 build date. Greyish now. But may have been black. I seem to be missing a clip to hold the center in place haha.


its just a big plastic snap plug same as the two on the sides.
sort of thing that eventually goes brittle and breaks and falls out.
smile.gif

thanks for the photo. general conclusion i think is only one type of original pad.
grey.

whatever the black ripple ones are is very likely replacement aftermarket jobs.
interesting that the car in the porsche museum has the black ripple version.
possibly indicates the car was restored to museum condition after dr. marchart donated it and is not so original. biggrin.gif

certainly the much debated 20K mile 74 that was for sale on BAT earlier this year also may have been sporting a non original back pad amongst many other items spotted by folks on this website. not so original as advertised and claimed.

the white 1.8 in dr. 914s collection in atlanta looks to me to be about the most honest car around and a reliable example. its grey - like all of ours that are known from near new.

Posted by: wonkipop Nov 4 2022, 05:45 PM

another one for engine tin stamp numbers.

sadly one of the hurricane flood damaged cars.
looked to be an ok car. sad.gif not anymore. water up to the door handles.
late 74. going by the plastic expansion tank.

# = 607. i think. bottom of 7 is worn off.
if its an original car means california EC-A with console (oil temp sensor plate fitted to bottom of engine case). its got a console so its probably still relatively original.

Attached Image
Attached Image
Attached Image

Posted by: L-Jet914 Nov 4 2022, 11:35 PM

QUOTE(wonkipop @ Nov 4 2022, 04:45 PM) *

another one for engine tin stamp numbers.

sadly one of the hurricane flood damaged cars.
looked to be an ok car. sad.gif not anymore. water up to the door handles.
late 74. going by the plastic expansion tank.

# = 607. i think. bottom of 7 is worn off.
if its an original car means california EC-A with console (oil temp sensor plate fitted to bottom of engine case). its got a console so its probably still relatively original.

Attached Image
Attached Image
Attached Image


Unfortunate for that 1.8. With water up to the door handles, I bet all those electronics, FI brain, AFM are totaled (no longer usable). That little car is now a parts car.

Posted by: wonkipop Nov 6 2022, 06:08 AM

another one for the research file.
for sale on BAT at moment.

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1974-porsche-914-71/

Vin 4742909654. 184 cars before @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=10753 's car.
K 4829576. built the day before SB's car tues 27 Nov 73.

engine tin stamp # 605. found on other EC-Bs.
can just make out tune up sticker. two vac hose to distributor. = EC-B.

car has a console - looks original to the car (goes with AC).
has the oil temp sender plate on the engine case.

accords with pattern observed for engine stamp #s.
605 = car with console guage set up built at factory.

will add it to the data already compiled down the track.


Attached Image
Attached Image

Posted by: StarBear Nov 6 2022, 07:45 AM

biggrin.gif

Posted by: wonkipop Nov 6 2022, 06:17 PM

QUOTE(StarBear @ Nov 6 2022, 07:45 AM) *

biggrin.gif


i think its a full sister car to yours @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=10753 .
colour etc. (although i can't remember what your interior is steve, black or brown).

when you look at the BAT description it notes that it was originally ravenna green, now repainted to forest/zambesi green.

however...................
that statement appears to be made as a result of the karmann badge paint code which is L 65 K. that is the code for ravenna green.

but look at the photos carefully. the car was definitely forrest/zambesi green originally.
the giveway is the shot under the dash. classic factory paint finish there where the paint spray gives out and goes thin and you get primer showing. thats original factory finish in that area (sloppy like the factory). completely repainted restored cars do not replicate this.
there is no trace of ravenna paint spray anywhere there. cabin under carpet paint looks original to me. all f/z green. underneath photos show all paint on underside around bottom of trunk etc is f/z green and looks worn and original, not repaint.

one last clue. it has a vin sticker that is silver. the sticker is definitely original. you can see the repaint edges around it. every ravenna green car i have found has a black vin sticker. every forrest/zambesi green car has a silver vin sticker.

i think this car has a karmann plate that got stamped wrong at the factory.
they marked it L 65 K when they should have marked it L 64 K?
first time i have stumbled across a k plate that might have been marked wrong.
we have seen other instances noted of K tags in front trunk being numbered strangely.
but first time i have seen a paint code stamp that might have been wrong.

its not a bad looking car.
its had a lot of work done on it.

anyway its virtually the same as your car steve?
fuchs, console, EC-B #605 engine and in forrest green built the day before yours. beerchug.gif

Posted by: StarBear Nov 6 2022, 07:38 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=24231 . Yep; a sister car! Mine has brown interior which imho goes better with the z Green.
Yeah, never seen a misstamped k plate though there was a discussion a few months ago about a possible misstamp. Will have to check it out further.
Thanks!

Posted by: StarBear Nov 6 2022, 07:55 PM

A few more notes:
Can’t see the k plate clearly. Looks like originally Ravenna then repainted a dark z Green, nearly Irish Green. Z Green has always been hard to get right - too blue, too yellow, too dark.
My appearance group has a black center bumper panel not chrome. Chrome I thought were only for 2.0 cars.
The luggage rack is useful but detracts from the car’s clean lines imho.
Original owner since 1980?? And this person only had it one year - to do paint etc and flip.

Posted by: wonkipop Nov 7 2022, 02:52 AM

QUOTE(StarBear @ Nov 6 2022, 07:55 PM) *

A few more notes:
Can’t see the k plate clearly. Looks like originally Ravenna then repainted a dark z Green, nearly Irish Green. Z Green has always been hard to get right - too blue, too yellow, too dark.
My appearance group has a black center bumper panel not chrome. Chrome I thought were only for 2.0 cars.
The luggage rack is useful but detracts from the car’s clean lines imho.
Original owner since 1980?? And this person only had it one year - to do paint etc and flip.


it was painted back in the 2000s or so by the look of the receipt dates?

the present owner is doing a flip, but did not do the majority of the work.
see the dates on all the receipts.

it has definitely not been repainted on the cabin interior.
see the under dash photo.
and that is not ravenna green in under there. its forrest/zambezi.

there is something funny about the k plate.
drunken germans on the production line?

it would be worth looking right over that car but its in colorado i think?

what is the black centre bumper panel you are referring to @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=10753 ?
you are correct they did not get the exterior shade of the green right for f/z green on the exterior repaint.
its too dark.

i agree brown interior much better with green.
brown and green is the color of a tree (in a forrest unless its australia after a bushfire when the regrowth starts and then its vivid black and vivid green).
brown also goes well with phoenix red. smile.gif biggrin.gif "the jaffa".
mind you everyone used to think i'd bought the worst kind of 70s kitsch back in the 90s.
not now! smile.gif taste + updating its a dangerous thing. always go for staying original.
i no longer get people say my car is kitsch and tasteless. its all - oh man that car is beautiful. biggrin.gif beerchug.gif

i had that experience today with one of my other cars.
i was driving the citroen xm to the workshop for my weekly break from my real job.
had to do a pickup of some LHM for the xm because its leaking hydraulic fluid out of its pressure pump. all citroens do. you live with it.
i pulled out of the side street to go down a major road.
two trendoid young blokes were about to cross the road.
i paused to let them cross.
they both said in unison, "beautiful car mate".
and then got down on their knees and did the worship routine in front of the car before getting up and completing crossing the road.
it was very funny. and beautifully un-woke. beer.gif

Posted by: wonkipop Nov 7 2022, 03:28 AM

QUOTE(L-Jet914 @ Nov 4 2022, 11:35 PM) *

QUOTE(wonkipop @ Nov 4 2022, 04:45 PM) *

another one for engine tin stamp numbers.

sadly one of the hurricane flood damaged cars.
looked to be an ok car. sad.gif not anymore. water up to the door handles.
late 74. going by the plastic expansion tank.

# = 607. i think. bottom of 7 is worn off.
if its an original car means california EC-A with console (oil temp sensor plate fitted to bottom of engine case). its got a console so its probably still relatively original.

Attached Image
Attached Image
Attached Image


Unfortunate for that 1.8. With water up to the door handles, I bet all those electronics, FI brain, AFM are totaled (no longer usable). That little car is now a parts car.


yep - another ground zero modern fuel injection marsupial bites the dust.
its almost as bad as watching a koala die.
sad.gif

Posted by: StarBear Nov 7 2022, 07:47 AM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=24231 The section of bumper (front and rear) between the top strip and the bottom valence. See pics. Mine are black (some sort of soft black paint) not chrome. All the other 1.8 Appearance Group cars I’ve seen have black center pieces; all 2.0s have chrome. But then, as we know, there ARE exceptions to every configuration!
Attached Image
Attached Image

Posted by: wonkipop Nov 7 2022, 05:49 PM

QUOTE(StarBear @ Nov 7 2022, 07:47 AM) *

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=24231 The section of bumper (front and rear) between the top strip and the bottom valence. See pics. Mine are black (some sort of soft black paint) not chrome. All the other 1.8 Appearance Group cars I’ve seen have black center pieces; all 2.0s have chrome. But then, as we know, there ARE exceptions to every configuration!
Attached Image
Attached Image


yes - i see what you mean now. the actual bumper.

very interesting point you make.
about differences in appearance group spec for 1.8s and 2.0s.


Posted by: JeffBowlsby Nov 8 2022, 01:29 PM

FYI - the Appearance Group was the same for 1.8L and 2.0L cars but the AG items varied from model year to model year. Chrome bumpers were not included in the AG in 1974...they were an extra cost item.


Attached thumbnail(s)
Attached Image

Posted by: L-Jet914 Nov 8 2022, 10:15 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=24231 our 74 1.8s never came with the timing plug with a vacuum fitting to allow air to be fed into the canister did they? There is a (US spec) 74 1.8 for sale in Austria on the 914World Facebook group page. The ECU is also not mounted behind the battery.


Attached thumbnail(s)
Attached Image Attached Image

Posted by: wonkipop Nov 9 2022, 05:32 AM

QUOTE(L-Jet914 @ Nov 8 2022, 10:15 PM) *

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=24231 our 74 1.8s never came with the timing plug with a vacuum fitting to allow air to be fed into the canister did they? There is a (US spec) 74 1.8 for sale in Austria on the 914World Facebook group page. The ECU is also not mounted behind the battery.


relax mate, that freak of nature is when they fitted an AC unit,
its an aftermarket thing,/dealer thing,
both shifting the ECU and sticking the hose into the timing plug.

don't worry, your dear old dad handed you down the real thing.
a dinosaur from the birth of modernism.,
keep it sweet. beerchug.gif

Posted by: wonkipop Nov 9 2022, 05:33 AM

QUOTE(JeffBowlsby @ Nov 8 2022, 01:29 PM) *

FYI - the Appearance Group was the same for 1.8L and 2.0L cars but the AG items varied from model year to model year. Chrome bumpers were not included in the AG in 1974...they were an extra cost item.


f'n great when the voice of authority comes in and he is not wavering, beerchug.gif

Posted by: StarBear Nov 9 2022, 01:29 PM

QUOTE(wonkipop @ Nov 9 2022, 06:33 AM) *

QUOTE(JeffBowlsby @ Nov 8 2022, 01:29 PM) *

FYI - the Appearance Group was the same for 1.8L and 2.0L cars but the AG items varied from model year to model year. Chrome bumpers were not included in the AG in 1974...they were an extra cost item.


f'n great when the voice of authority comes in and he is not wavering, beerchug.gif

Ah, that kind of explains it. More than one person has tried to convince me that I had changed out my bumpers which I know I hadn’t. Mine is “standard” 1974 AG, while the chromes are “premium” 1974 AG.
Gheesh…. beer.gif blink.gif

Posted by: L-Jet914 Nov 9 2022, 10:07 PM

QUOTE(wonkipop @ Nov 9 2022, 03:32 AM) *

QUOTE(L-Jet914 @ Nov 8 2022, 10:15 PM) *

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=24231 our 74 1.8s never came with the timing plug with a vacuum fitting to allow air to be fed into the canister did they? There is a (US spec) 74 1.8 for sale in Austria on the 914World Facebook group page. The ECU is also not mounted behind the battery.


relax mate, that freak of nature is when they fitted an AC unit,
its an aftermarket thing,/dealer thing,
both shifting the ECU and sticking the hose into the timing plug.

don't worry, your dear old dad handed you down the real thing.
a dinosaur from the birth of modernism.,
keep it sweet. beerchug.gif


Was just curious. I didn't know they moved that much stuff around when they installed that garbage that robbed even more power from our already meek engines haha.

Posted by: L-Jet914 Nov 30 2022, 01:21 PM

Random question regarding the following years of 914 (75-76) what did the 7th pin add to the L-Jet system? I was reading through wiring diagrams on Jeff's website but can't seem to track it down.

Posted by: wonkipop Nov 30 2022, 03:31 PM

QUOTE(L-Jet914 @ Nov 30 2022, 01:21 PM) *

Random question regarding the following years of 914 (75-76) what did the 7th pin add to the L-Jet system? I was reading through wiring diagrams on Jeff's website but can't seem to track it down.


it concerned a revision to the wiring design of the incoming air temp sensor.

i'll see if i can dig it out.
there was a thread in the garage section where the AFM internals were discussed.
basically the temp sensor got its own distinct connection (7th pin).
i think maybe the location of the temp sensor was also revised in the afm unit itself as well but not entirely 100% on that.



EDIT.
thread here.

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=360434&hl=

Posted by: L-Jet914 Nov 30 2022, 08:33 PM

QUOTE(wonkipop @ Nov 30 2022, 01:31 PM) *

QUOTE(L-Jet914 @ Nov 30 2022, 01:21 PM) *

Random question regarding the following years of 914 (75-76) what did the 7th pin add to the L-Jet system? I was reading through wiring diagrams on Jeff's website but can't seem to track it down.


it concerned a revision to the wiring design of the incoming air temp sensor.

i'll see if i can dig it out.
there was a thread in the garage section where the AFM internals were discussed.
basically the temp sensor got its own distinct connection (7th pin).
i think maybe the location of the temp sensor was also revised in the afm unit itself as well but not entirely 100% on that.



EDIT.
thread here.

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=360434&hl=


Thank you for the information. Interesting how things changed slightly.


Posted by: StarBear Dec 14 2022, 10:29 AM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=24231
@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=8571
@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=15080
Curious - while doing some post driving season cleanup I removed the rain tray for the first time ever. Noticed that the two rear outer screws are yellow zinc plated and slight longer than the other four bronze-like finish, slightly shorter screws. See pics below.
Any experience, history, or insight? confused24.gif To my belief these are original and, again, yet another quirk or something purposeful? confused24.gif
Of course, this follows my recent discovery (confirmed as correct) two different screws used to hold the speaker housings.

Attached Image
Attached Image
Attached Image

Posted by: wonkipop Dec 14 2022, 04:19 PM

well well well.

i'd have to get the screws out to see how long they are.
but ...... i may not have your set up. there are a couple of bolts involved in mine.

whats on mine is 3 phillips head screws across the rear edge of the rain tray (trunk lid edge).
they could be different lengths but i would have to take them out to find out.
but all three look the same in terms of diam.

across the long side towards cabin there is 2 bolts (sides) and 1 screw (centre). the 2 bolts are in circular recessed depression, the bolts look to me to be identical to the same small bolts that hold on the rain funnels. M6 bolts. very small. accessible by a socket. the screw could be a different size to the three along the rear edge. i'd have to get it out to look. it looks like it is smaller. to my eye, smaller diam head.
EDIT - CORRECTION - i just went and had a proper look with the torch, it was a bit dark out in the garage earlier. its three identical little bolts across the back. all the same.
M6. not a screw in centre.


the finish on them all is silver. any bronze finish long gone and oxidised away.

i've never changed them in 33 years. but i guess they could have been changed by first owner or original service mechanics. now that i look at it the bolts seems out of place even though same as funnel bolts. why wouldn't they all be screws. but i dunno.
i've never touched them.

being curious i had a look at the PET.
its got the info for only the early rain tray!
- they don't appear to have updated the PET.
it lists only two screws. 2 of AM6x20.

so i had a look at the factory workshop manual. it does not appear to have the later rain tray either. and contrary to PET it lists 1 AM6x15 and 1 AM6 x20. the longer screw appeared to hold the funny little rubber handle that was fitted left hand side of the early type rain tray. the back of the early type rain tray seemed to hang on three strap like things with whats called clamping discs. having never seen an early rain tray or early car up close i'm not really clear on it.

but anyway none of my material has anything on our later rain trays.

Posted by: StarBear Dec 14 2022, 04:38 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=24231 Interesting! I couldn’t find anything either. All mine are screws with the same Phillips head but different finishes and lengths. No bolts, except as you noted those holding the rain funnels.
Let’s see if any other 1.8 gurus have info. Probably either keep mine the way they are or replate the five that are bronze finished ( but only on the heads). Might (?) I have painted them in the past? The 80s were a bit of a blur….. dry.gif

Posted by: wonkipop Dec 14 2022, 06:25 PM

QUOTE(StarBear @ Dec 14 2022, 04:38 PM) *

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=24231 Interesting! I couldn’t find anything either. All mine are screws with the same Phillips head but different finishes and lengths. No bolts, except as you noted those holding the rain funnels.
Let’s see if any other 1.8 gurus have info. Probably either keep mine the way they are or replate the five that are bronze finished ( but only on the heads). Might (?) I have painted them in the past? The 80s were a bit of a blur….. dry.gif


had a scout through files from EC-A EC-B research.
this is best i could do for a photo.
its from a car that was sold on BAT about 6 months back that was down, but pretty unmolested. had all sorts of original stuff on it including recall sticker. reliable i would say.

you can only see the screw retaining rain tray on truck lid edge.
mine look similar to this. possibly were cadmium once but its oxidised.

the bolt i am talking about being like rain funnel bolts is in the rear recess either side.
where arrow points.

nothing anywhere in my files had a clear view of it on any cars. its just recessed far enough it never appears visible on any photos. sad.gif
have drawn a blank there.

logic tells me they should all be screws.
but then again....we sure have found plenty of odd bits of logic when it comes to the 1.8s. anyway i wouldn't swear on mine.

interesting prompt from you. never taken a close look at those rain tray fixings before.

confused24.gif beer.gif

Attached Image

Posted by: wonkipop Dec 14 2022, 06:32 PM

PS @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=10753

if you really wanted to know, @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=7418 has his very original white 1.8 in his collection.
that would be guaranteed unmolested. he'd be able to take a look and tell you whats there for sure.

then we'd both know. biggrin.gif beerchug.gif


EDIT
i went on auto atlanta website.
this is their kit for fixing late rain tray.

Attached Image

now this does not entirely make sense to me either.
its only got 5 screws. you can see varying sizes.

i've definitely got 6 fixing points on mine.
three across cabin side (which have the M6 boltss).
three across the trunk side (which have M6 phillips head screws).

confused24.gif

dunno. need a certifiable reference vehicle.
that white one in his collection would probably be pretty trustworthy.

Posted by: StarBear Dec 14 2022, 08:11 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=24231 Yep, that kit makes no sense.
As for that white 1.8 lead, do you mean George at AA, who has a different Dr914 handle? Didn’t see it on @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=4947 member summary.

Posted by: wonkipop Dec 14 2022, 09:40 PM

QUOTE(StarBear @ Dec 14 2022, 08:11 PM) *

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=24231 Yep, that kit makes no sense.
As for that white 1.8 lead, do you mean George at AA, who has a different Dr914 handle? Didn’t see it on @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=4947 member summary.


yes george at AA

Posted by: wonkipop Dec 14 2022, 10:00 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=10753

i found this on a thread here.

Attached Image

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=305228


i would say the two longer screws with washers and 1 shorter screw match mine across the trunk side. i can still see the rubber spacers in mine. they are a bit perished.

and i'm going to guess that the 3 M6 bolts on mine across the cabin side probably are not original. someone maybe took the rain tray off before i got the car 33 years ago and maybe lost the screws?

or heinrich ran out of screws at the karmann factory 50 years ago and walked across to the funnel box and borrowed some of those M6 bolts before he knocked off for a pilsner. beer.gif

Posted by: StarBear Dec 15 2022, 08:04 AM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=24231 Now those two longer screws make sense. I think I have an extra pair of those valence spacers; mine are gone.

Or, Heinrich caught a glimpse of Greta bending over to grab a rocker panel and got way distracted and dizzy! biggrin.gif

Posted by: StarBear Dec 15 2022, 09:15 AM

I checked and believe the comment in the thread that these spacers are different than the rocker spacers. The bolts are much thicker so the holes in my pair of spare rocker panel spacers were much too small. Seems right as the rocker panel bolts are much thinner. Can’t speak to the valence spacers as I’ve not compared to them.
No problem, though. Worked with my assistant Makita and got the job done!
smile.gif
Attached Image

Posted by: L-Jet914 Dec 22 2022, 11:46 PM

I would have to look at my screws now. I think all of my screws are silver in color and if they had any yellow zinc plating, it's all gone now. I have since removed my rain tray as I no longer drive the vehicle during the rainy months (or lack of rain here haha). I know for a fact that none of the spacers are present anymore.

Posted by: StarBear Dec 23 2022, 07:47 AM

QUOTE(L-Jet914 @ Dec 23 2022, 01:46 AM) *

I would have to look at my screws now. I think all of my screws are silver in color and if they had any yellow zinc plating, it's all gone now. I have since removed my rain tray as I no longer drive the vehicle during the rainy months (or lack of rain here haha). I know for a fact that none of the spacers are present anymore.

Got new short yellow zinc ones at zcar site (240/260/280 Z).. if you need the exact site just let me know. They each come with the washer and a lock washer. Yay

Posted by: Van B Dec 29 2022, 12:10 PM

Fellas!

NOS TTS for our cars on ebay:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/255490292323

I bought one so… three left!

Posted by: Van B Dec 29 2022, 12:16 PM

Here’s my rain tray. All original, all philips head metric fine pitch, no stand offs, and not even removed when they did the garbage paint job some years back


Attached thumbnail(s)
Attached Image

Posted by: StarBear Dec 29 2022, 01:28 PM

QUOTE(Van B @ Dec 29 2022, 01:10 PM) *

Fellas!

NOS TTS for our cars on ebay:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/255490292323

I bought one so… three left!


Thanks! Thinking about it though at that price maybe hold off as just bought a $100 orbital polisher to do my windshield this winter.
How critical are these TTS, and do they fail often? Mostly for initial, cold starting?

BTW, checked PET page 124; the part numbers are different: 022 906 164 for ECO 037 551- and 043 906 163 for ECO 037 552+. Would this make a difference? 022 vs 043 just supplier part number (VW vs other?).

Also, I've never been quite sure, but is ECO 037... referencing the engine number? If so, what is the difference for a 1.8 at that split (551/552) in the numbering?
Still learning this stuff....
@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=24231
@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=15080
@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=8571

Posted by: wonkipop Dec 29 2022, 06:41 PM

QUOTE(StarBear @ Dec 29 2022, 01:28 PM) *

QUOTE(Van B @ Dec 29 2022, 01:10 PM) *

Fellas!

NOS TTS for our cars on ebay:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/255490292323

I bought one so… three left!


Thanks! Thinking about it though at that price maybe hold off as just bought a $100 orbital polisher to do my windshield this winter.
How critical are these TTS, and do they fail often? Mostly for initial, cold starting?

BTW, checked PET page 124; the part numbers are different: 022 906 164 for ECO 037 551- and 043 906 163 for ECO 037 552+. Would this make a difference? 022 vs 043 just supplier part number (VW vs other?).

Also, I've never been quite sure, but is ECO 037... referencing the engine number? If so, what is the difference for a 1.8 at that split (551/552) in the numbering?
Still learning this stuff....
@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=24231
@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=15080
@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=8571


yes its the engine number.
up to 551 is 74. from 552 on is 75.

regarding the first three numbers on the part number.
usually in VW parlance the first three numbers refer to the model the part was first used on. in this case however i don't see that for either of part numbers in PET for this thermo time switch. they do have other conventions on those first three numbers. belonging to a parts group etc.

so is the thermo time switch different for 74 to 75?
i'm going to guess its the same because i am pretty sure the cold start injector is the same and the TTS controls that. its only the first three numbers are different.
what would have possibly made it different. only emissions laws, some fine details on cold start warm up emissions? i don't think there was anything that fussy going down in 74/75.

anyway. i can do a bit more poking around on that but i am sure @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=26011 will have already done his research.





Posted by: Van B Dec 29 2022, 08:54 PM

You both may remember all the learning I did sorting out the FI last year, but I’ll give the sort version.

When the TTS fails, your CSV will only work during cranking. Which means you don’t get the 8 sec extra when cold. The later versions for the 75 and 912E give you 13 sec.

So, in warm weather, TTS is irrelevant, but it’s an important part for cold mornings. It gets your RPMs up long enough to get the flow running through the AAR and open the barn door on the AFM.


Bosch and Porsche say this is the superseded part, which I bought, but it is digital circuits and I’m not sure it works correctly in our cars.
https://www.fcpeuro.com/products/bmw-thermo-time-switch-bosch-13621362599

Posted by: StarBear Dec 29 2022, 08:57 PM

On the AA site it provides a 928 part number availability. Have seen that in a few other instances. Maybe a small difference in the eBay part number, bring Bosch instead of VW or other. I think I have an alternate parts listing, from Bowlsby IIRC.

Posted by: StarBear Dec 29 2022, 09:00 PM

QUOTE(Van B @ Dec 29 2022, 09:54 PM) *

You both may remember all the learning I did sorting out the FI last year, but I’ll give the sort version.

When the TTS fails, your CSV will only work during cranking. Which means you don’t get the 8 sec extra when cold. The later versions for the 75 and 912E give you 13 sec.

So, in warm weather, TTS is irrelevant, but it’s an important part for cold mornings. It gets your RPMs up long enough to get the flow running through the AAR and open the barn door on the AFM.


Bosch and Porsche say this is the superseded part, which I bought, but it is digital circuits and I’m not sure it works correctly in our cars.
https://www.fcpeuro.com/products/bmw-thermo-time-switch-bosch-13621362599

pray.gif
Will keep this in my reference notebook. Thanks!

Posted by: wonkipop Dec 29 2022, 11:23 PM

QUOTE(Van B @ Dec 29 2022, 08:54 PM) *

You both may remember all the learning I did sorting out the FI last year, but I’ll give the sort version.

When the TTS fails, your CSV will only work during cranking. Which means you don’t get the 8 sec extra when cold. The later versions for the 75 and 912E give you 13 sec.

So, in warm weather, TTS is irrelevant, but it’s an important part for cold mornings. It gets your RPMs up long enough to get the flow running through the AAR and open the barn door on the AFM.


Bosch and Porsche say this is the superseded part, which I bought, but it is digital circuits and I’m not sure it works correctly in our cars.
https://www.fcpeuro.com/products/bmw-thermo-time-switch-bosch-13621362599



excellent summary.

i could half remember you had done all that homework @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=26011 .

i'll look into maybe picking one of these TTS. the aussie dollar is very weak against the USD at the moment so its a pretty expensive bit to pick up but i may just bite the bullet.

thanks for the tip off.

Posted by: StarBear Dec 30 2022, 11:00 AM

Good thing I checked my stash inventory list - I already have a used/tested unit.
In the process, I seem to have taken good notes (see pics); in 1974 and earlier they used 022 for the fuel injection group, changing this part to the electrical group, 043, by July 74 (see pic with date) hence the change in part number. 13C and 8 secs as shown in pic.
As further pics show the 022/043 part number is VW/Audi; the 028 number is Bosch. Same unit. Should work just fine, @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=24231 .

Attached Image

Attached Image

Attached Image

Attached Image

Attached Image

Posted by: Van B Dec 30 2022, 04:24 PM

Yeah that’ll do nicely. The resistor type are what our cars need. The new style with the long hex body don’t speak the same language.

Posted by: L-Jet914 Dec 31 2022, 08:34 PM

QUOTE(StarBear @ Dec 29 2022, 11:28 AM) *

QUOTE(Van B @ Dec 29 2022, 01:10 PM) *

Fellas!

NOS TTS for our cars on ebay:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/255490292323

I bought one so… three left!


Thanks! Thinking about it though at that price maybe hold off as just bought a $100 orbital polisher to do my windshield this winter.
How critical are these TTS, and do they fail often? Mostly for initial, cold starting?

BTW, checked PET page 124; the part numbers are different: 022 906 164 for ECO 037 551- and 043 906 163 for ECO 037 552+. Would this make a difference? 022 vs 043 just supplier part number (VW vs other?).

Also, I've never been quite sure, but is ECO 037... referencing the engine number? If so, what is the difference for a 1.8 at that split (551/552) in the numbering?
Still learning this stuff....
@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=24231
@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=15080
@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=8571


The TTS complete with bracket, I acquired from Jeff Bowlsby as part of a L-Jet roadside fix it kit for the TTS shows VW PN: 022906163 Bosch PN: 0280130202 11/73 (build month?) and 15 degrees C 8 seconds.

Posted by: wonkipop Jun 3 2023, 06:35 PM

EPILOGUE to the 74 L Jets with some information gathered along the way concerning the 75 L Jet 1.8s.

In 75 there again was 2 different versions of the 1.8 L Jet.
One for USA (49 states) and one for California.

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=104 has a publication on his website which identifies these two different engines with non-clamenture similar but not identical to the 74 models.
The publication is MODEL 75, Service and Training Information.
on page 11 the following is listed.
EC-a (USA)
EC-b (California).
This is the only place this designation is found in literature to date.
note - it is the reverse of the notation for the 74 engines and lower case a and b is used instead of the upper case used in 74. in 74 the B was the USA engine and the A was the california spec engine.

For 1975 the production cars and CARB documents identify the engines instead using a new notation named Engine Family.

Engine Family 15 is the EC-a (USA engine).
Engine Family 16 is the EC-b (California engine).


--------------

Engine Family 15 and 16 engines are most obviously identified by 1) Emission Sticker and characterised by 2) Engine Tune-up Sticker, 3) painted number stamp and 4) the fitment of EGR and CAT in the case of californian spec cars.

---------------

ENGINE FAMILY 15. (49 states).

1. Emission Sticker.

Located on the cast fan shrounding, left hand side of engine.
USEPA compliant only.

Attached Image
Attached Image
Attached Image

2. Engine Tune-up Sticker.

Located on the upper tin-ware, left hand side of engine.
shows both vacuum hoses to distributor, both to be disconnected for tune-up.
(unlike 74 models both engine families had identical tune up stickers in 75).

Attached Image
Attached Image

3. Painted Stencil Number on Engine Tin.

located on either left hand side of engine,
or on both sides of engine. the engines are marked with either 918 or 920.
Similar to 74 cars the two different numbers designate whether the engine was fitted with the oil temp sensor sump lid and associated wiring (for console and gauge option) or the standard sump lid.
918 = standard sump lid cars (no temp gauge).
920 = oil temp sensor lid (console + gauge cars from factory).

Attached Image
Attached Image
Attached Image
Attached Image
Attached Image
Attached Image
Attached Image

4. Emission Equipment.

the engine family 15 (EC-a/49 states) engines are set up very similar (almost identical) to the 74 EC-A (california) cars. No vacuum advance port on throttle body and vac advance hose from distributor tucked under intake plenum. The decel valve was of a different design to the 74 cars. Charcoal Cannister location was altered to beside the battery. ECU and AFM was updated and was a different part # to 74 (though this may have occured early in the run of 75 models and not at the start of production, some 75s used the earlier AFM and ECU from the 74 until stocks were exhausted).

Attached Image
Attached Image


-----------

ENGINE FAMILY 16 (California)


1. Emission Sticker.

Located on fan shroud, Left hand side of engine.
USEPA and California Emissions compliant.

Attached Image


2. Tune-up Sticker.

Identical to eng. fam. 15 in same location.

Attached Image


3. Painted Stencil Number on Engine Tin.

Located on either left hand side of engine or on both sides of engine.
the engines are marked with either 919 or 921.
919 indicates standard sump lid engines (no temp gauge).
921 indicates oil temp sensor sum lid engines (console/gauges option from factory).

Attached Image
Attached Image
Attached Image
Attached Image


4. Emissions Equipment

the Engine Family 16 (EC-b/California) are set up with EGR (ex gas recirculation ) and a CAT. the EGR uses a throttle body similar (virtually identical) to the 74 EC-B (49 states engine), the TB has a vacuum port above the throttle body. the EGR is activated by a vacuum hose from that port and operates at times of high engine vacuum when not idling (ie highway cruise). the vacuum advance line from the distributor is not connected and is tucked under the intake plenum as per 74 EC-a engines and 75 E. F. 15 engines.
there are further detailed differences. unique distributor without ignition cut off rotor and a fuel cut off switch incorporated instead.
note - the position of this canister has likely been flipped 180 degrees to allow connection of a right hand side heater booster fan hose (non original-later dealer or owner modification) - the original hose connections have been maintained.

Attached Image

Posted by: wonkipop Jun 3 2023, 06:37 PM

CARB documents covering the 1975 model year outline the differences in spec that cover Engine Family 16 cars for the californian market.

Attached Image
Attached Image
Attached Image

Posted by: L-Jet914 Jun 3 2023, 10:37 PM

hey hey hey stay out of my treasure trove carb archives wink.gif

Posted by: wonkipop Jun 4 2023, 12:32 AM

QUOTE(L-Jet914 @ Jun 3 2023, 10:37 PM) *

hey hey hey stay out of my treasure trove carb archives wink.gif


let me into any archive and its all over. biggrin.gif biggrin.gif biggrin.gif beerchug.gif
thanks for the keys to that vault. beerchug.gif

i never thought i would ever end up an emissions nerd.
but i have become fascinated by technology.
and its beginnings.
probably no different than being over interested in apollo moon mission technical artefacts. its a fascinating time in humanity when the 914 is in production.
up against the wall with the EPA really coming at them.
no different than LOR, lunar orbital rendezvous i have decided.
john houlbolt is one of my childhood heroes.
he stood up to werner von braun and the rest of them and told them he was right.
and he was.
basically the architect of the apollo design. at a concept design level.
which is what someone in germany was doing when they came up with L jet.
love to know who thought of L jet.
its the same heresy as LOR for the moon missions?

Posted by: wonkipop Dec 25 2023, 05:28 PM

doing a bit of research.
images from the bundesarchiv (available from wikipedia).

914 on the VW banked test track.
date is interesting - Jan 1973.

they would not have been testing the 2.0 L engine at that time.
already in production. would have been earlier on that model.
all the early testing would have been done in 1968 on the original cars.

my bet (educated guess) is this is the L jet engine being tested.
probably on durability runs.

Attached Image
Attached Image

Posted by: wonkipop May 3 2024, 03:38 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=10753

more 74 minutiae?
i recently collected some BAT data on 1.8
( a new member @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=28029 now has the car biggrin.gif )
i noticed this. not something you normally pick re details. beer.gif

Attached Image

can't tell if its my imagination or i am seeing what i think is there.
metal (chrome?) visor pins.
its a 11/73 car.

my car has black plastic visor pins. is a 01/74 build.
you have a 11/73 car @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=10753 . what are the pins on yours.

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=104 ?

Posted by: JeffBowlsby May 3 2024, 04:04 PM

I have noticed that too. As far as I know they are chrome up to 73, then black 74+

Posted by: wonkipop May 3 2024, 04:05 PM

and 74 esoteric stuff.

got hold of some further photos of Dr. Horst Marchart 74 1.8 from porsche museum.
Attached Image

dashboard detail.

Attached Image

at first i thought i was looking at an EGR light.
but........whats an EGR light doing on a 74 euro spec 1.8 with twin carbs and zero emissions gear?

Attached Image

and why does it look different to the real deal EGR / CAT lights that were in 75 cali 1.8s?

Attached Image

then i realised the EGR "light" in Dr. Marchart's car isn't a light its a mockup.
an orange printed label stuck to the dashboard face with a piece of circular transparent tape. biggrin.gif biggrin.gif
the designers/engineers at porsche must have been using Dr. Marchart's car to test out the positioning of the lights during 1974.
pretty amazing the artefact is still there stuck on the dashboard 50 years later.
probably had a CAT light mockup "light" as well but it peeled off somewhere down the years? biggrin.gif biggrin.gif

----------

anyway i can date this car i reckon even without a VIN number.
thanks to all the minutiae we stumbled over with the L jet research.

front trunk.

Attached Image
black headlight side covers + all cardboard tubes to heater/fresh air box.
= pre jan 01 1974.
after jan 01 74 headlight covers are grey until april 74.
when black again post april the heater box tubes have been changed to black plastic.

rear trunk.

Attached Image

no small formed dent to carry the engine bay charcoal cannister.
even though euro spec cars did not have vapor emissions equipment fitted they used the same body shells as the USA spec cars. the dent was there after 18/19 Nov 1973.

here is a euro spec 75 german delivered.
Attached Image

USA spec 74 1.8 with dent.
Attached Image

USA spec 75 1.8 with dent.
dent still there even though cannister position changed to beside the battery in 75.
Attached Image

this places the marchart 74 euro spec as very likely built before round about 18/19 november 73.
but there is more.
the european models have owners manuals following exactly the same pattern as USA spec cars that we tracked a couple of years ago.
ie there is a first owners manual dating from August 1973 print which has only 2.0 on the cover. there is a second owners manual dating from October 1973 print which includes 1.8 and there is a third print dating November 1973 print also inclusive of 1.8 on the cover.

I conclude (probably reasonably) that 1.8 euro spec production even though it was not an L jet engine did not commence until the same time as the L jets - end of October/Start of November 1973.

that would place the porsche museum car in a Vin Band covering the first three weeks of Nov 1973. approx 07500 - 09500.

have to get someone to go to the museum and open the trunk and get the Vin number one day to see if my prediction is correct. biggrin.gif biggrin.gif

i think is mileage is probably correct. less than 20,000 km car (12,500 miles).
or at the least its once around the clock but given its kilometers = 120,000km = 70,000 miles. either number is plausible. and still low mileage.
i thought it might have been repainted and restored.
but i am inclined to think its a very low mileage original car.
given the EGR mockup artefact? not meddled with much at all since the 70s.
likely why Dr, Marchart donated it to the collection?

whcih also means its black back pad in the engine bay is probably genuine?
@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=104 ?
another thing i spotted with the 1.8s.
some seem to have black back pads rather than grey.
i think somewhere in there was an alternative supplier for those pads - a bit like the windscreens. being either sigla or kinonglas depending on date. there were batches of cars supplied with either one brand or the other.

Attached Image




other examples from L jet files of black engine bay back pad similar to porsche museum car. black pads have a kind of ripple surface finish almost like orange peel paint.

11/73 Vin 08482
Attached Image

11/73 Vin 08442
Attached Image

Vin 09271
Attached Image

05/74 Vin 17931
Attached Image

they seem to pop up at start of 1.8 production in nov 73 and appear again towards end later 74.

my 01/74 has the more usual smoother grey engine bay pad as do most examples on file.

?????

Posted by: StarBear May 4 2024, 06:43 AM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=24231
@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=104
Yep, my visor pins are chromed. My 74 1.8 (11/73 chassis, 5/74 completion) has quite a few leftover 73 parts, like seat upholstery; had never though about the pins.

Posted by: wonkipop May 4 2024, 03:01 PM

QUOTE(StarBear @ May 4 2024, 06:43 AM) *

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=24231
@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=104
Yep, my visor pins are chromed. My 74 1.8 (11/73 chassis, 5/74 completion) has quite a few leftover 73 parts, like seat upholstery; had never though about the pins.


thanks buddy. beerchug.gif beerchug.gif
does your vin really say 5/74 or is that the date of sale?

anyways looks like they were maybe using chrome pins and changed somewhere between nov 73 and jan 74.
be hard to pin point when. got plenty of examples on file but hardly any have a fluke detail shot of the sun visors naturally. biggrin.gif biggrin.gif biggrin.gif biggrin.gif

Posted by: wonkipop May 4 2024, 03:24 PM

QUOTE(StarBear @ May 4 2024, 06:43 AM) *

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=24231
@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=104
Yep, my visor pins are chromed. My 74 1.8 (11/73 chassis, 5/74 completion) has quite a few leftover 73 parts, like seat upholstery; had never though about the pins.


all the evidence does point to your 73 MY observation.
most of the 74 2.0s made between august and late oct 73 seem to be essentially carrying on from 73 MY. though @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=104 would know more about that.

the changes that characterise the 74 MY start happening bit by bit after about the 3rd week of nov 73 of production of the 1.8. but it doesn't all happen at once. its a series of changes over time stretching from nov 73 through to may 74. bit by bit.

Posted by: wonkipop May 7 2024, 05:31 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=104
@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=10753

Remember this label Jeff.
You had it on your website.

the elusive and enigmatic EC-B emissions label 49 states ONLY.
(From page 1 of this topic).

Attached Image

In the 80 odd examples I have collected on file all had Calif and USEPA approved labels whether EC-A (califonia) or EC-B (49 states). despite the EC-B engine being 49 states and the EC-A being california only.

they all looked like this. same as my car and starbears.

Attached Image


well.........the exceptional data finally turned up in another example with all the details.
its just come up for sale on BAT.
car is a bit rough under its exterior and the EFI is gone - but all engine labels and original tin are intact complete with emissions label.
its a little blurry but is visible in a blow up of one of the engine bay photos.
and you can see - USEPA only. same as your example from your website.

Attached Image
Attached Image
Attached Image

vin 4742919432
K number (VW production #) 2339522. wed 05 June 1974.
vin label says 06/74.
engine stamp number 605 checks out for an EC-B engine with console and gauges.
car has the orignal console and guages.
two hose tune up sticker on engine tin = EC-B emissions set up for distributor vacuum advance / retard.

conclusion - these labels went on right at the end of 74 production.
for approx. the last month in june 74.
i have examples right up to may 74 that have the more normally found sticker which says EC-A and EC-B are both USEPA and california compliant.

i don't have an example of an EC-A emission sticker for 06/74 but i am guessing it did not need a different one from the one it had through most of 74 production as anything California compliant was automatically USEPA compliant as it exceeded standards for the 49 states.........but you never know.

one more mystery of the L jets cracked.

beerchug.gif

Posted by: JeffBowlsby May 7 2024, 09:26 PM

I am thankful you are a sleuth! Look what can be found with persistence.

Posted by: wonkipop May 8 2024, 05:53 AM

QUOTE(JeffBowlsby @ May 7 2024, 09:26 PM) *

I am thankful you are a sleuth! Look what can be found with persistence.


only took 3 years. biggrin.gif

Attached Image

Posted by: wonkipop May 8 2024, 06:23 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=104

i've gone right through the examples on file of 74 1.8s to track the difference in engine bay back pads.


2 types of EBP (Engine bay pad).


type 1. referred to as Black Ripple (orange peel) surface.

Attached Image
Attached Image


type 2. referred to as Smooth Grey surface.

Attached Image
Attached Image


here is how they track through the production run of 74 1.8s from late oct 1973 through to june 1974.


Attached Image
Attached Image
Attached Image
Attached Image

VIN 4742918254 had its EBP removed. bit of a shame as it came between the two late entries for black ripple EPBs and might have provided confirming data.


-----------

According to this pattern @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=10753 car should have a black ripple engine bay pad.
I don't have a photo on file of StarBears car's pad from the L jet research a couple of years ago. can you confirm what type of pad your car has Steve?

Also @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=28029 (new member here with an early 1.8) - suggestion from data is that your car should have a black ripple engine bay back pad. Can you confirm.

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=104 . far as i can tell these black back pads only pop up in a batch of 1.8s produced very early in the production run during November 1973. does not appear to be in 2.0s produced between aug 73 and late oct 73.
the second time they appear is late in the production run in may 74. only a couple of examples have come to light on file. might affect some 2.0s very late in the 74MY.
don't think it would affect LE cars as they were all produced before May 74?


beerchug.gif

Posted by: wonkipop May 8 2024, 06:50 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=104

The 49 State EC-B emissions label appears to be the only one revised in june 74 to exclude California emissions compliance.

I went through my files and i have an EC-A emissions label from a later car - the emissions label is as per earlier EC-A labels and states USEPA and California compliance.


revised 49 states label from VIN 4742919432, EC-B engine.

Attached Image
Attached Image


EC-A engine emissions label from VIN 4742920438. - 1000 cars (approx 2-3 weeks production later).


Attached Image
Attached Image

Posted by: friethmiller May 8 2024, 07:06 PM

I have a 6/74 1.8L car. Unfortunately, I removed/replaced this sticker. This is the only picture I have of it. I probably saved the sticker somewhere but can seem to find it.


Attached image(s)
Attached Image

Posted by: wonkipop May 8 2024, 07:16 PM

QUOTE(friethmiller @ May 8 2024, 07:06 PM) *

I have a 6/74 1.8L car. Unfortunately, I removed/replaced this sticker. This is the only picture I have of it. I probably saved the sticker somewhere but can seem to find it.


hey thats great @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=22863 .

I can tell enough from that sticker to see with the extent of lettering on the crucial lines that it says USEPA and California compliant.

If its an EC-B engine that could give us an indication of when the revised sticker kicked in.

Do you know if it was an EC-B engine. (unfortunately thats not legible on the sticker photo you have) ie 49 states car. if you know which state it was originally sold new its usually a reliable indicator. calif sale = EC-A 100%. 49 states sale = EC-B 99%.

if its non california, whats the Vin and K number?

Attached Image

Posted by: StarBear May 8 2024, 08:05 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=24231
@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=104
Mine is the smooth gray type; original still in place.
Body DOT plate is 12/73; Karmann plate is 5/74.
If needed can provide photo and precise Karmann date.

Posted by: friethmiller May 8 2024, 08:10 PM

QUOTE(wonkipop @ May 8 2024, 08:16 PM) *

QUOTE(friethmiller @ May 8 2024, 07:06 PM) *

I have a 6/74 1.8L car. Unfortunately, I removed/replaced this sticker. This is the only picture I have of it. I probably saved the sticker somewhere but can seem to find it.


hey thats great @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=22863 .

I can tell enough from that sticker to see with the extent of lettering on the crucial lines that it says USEPA and California compliant.

If its an EC-B engine that could give us an indication of when the revised sticker kicked in.

Do you know if it was an EC-B engine. (unfortunately thats not legible on the sticker photo you have) ie 49 states car. if you know which state it was originally sold new its usually a reliable indicator. calif sale = EC-A 100%. 49 states sale = EC-B 99%.

if its non california, whats the Vin and K number?

Attached Image

I haven't read all the post on this thread so I'm not exactly sure if it's a EC-B engine or not. Let me know how I can figure this out and I'll report back. No clue on the original purchase location. I do know that it was located in the Atlanta, GA area for many years. Unfortunately the FI system is long gone on this one but it still has the original 1.8L - now a 2375. Anyways, here's the vitals.

Vin: 4742920229 Engine: EC035789 Chassis: 2549551

Stickers are both new reproductions

Attached Image. Attached Image Attached Image

Posted by: wonkipop May 8 2024, 08:28 PM

thats a very magnificent looking 914 @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=22863 .
i see you are down in texas.
my memories are from the late 80s and 90s but man.......i loved texas.
my favourite part of the states by far and my favorite stateside peoples.
hoping to get back there one day and see the much further west part of texas this time, biggrin.gif

pretty hard to pick the difference between a EC-A and a EC-B.
all they did was hook up the advance side of the distributor in the Bs and unhook it in the As and plug up the throttle body port. literally.
and put a different emissions sticker on. beer.gif biggrin.gif
so there is no way to really tell if you dont have the original emissions sticker, original EFI or a sales receipt.
and.......it doesn't really matter. cause it doesn't make one bit of difference to enjoying your 914. its just some esoteric info we have been following up for a few years.

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=104 had a mysterious emissions sticker in his collection for the 1.8s.
basically i could never turn up another example of it until a few days ago.
the gist of it all would seem to be that it took the EPA and/orCARB 7 months to catch up with VW/Porsche and order them to get their stickers right back in 1974. biggrin.gif biggrin.gif biggrin.gif
probably sent a very nasty letter to germany thats lying around in the factory archives somewhere. biggrin.gif biggrin.gif

Posted by: wonkipop May 8 2024, 08:34 PM

ps

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=22863

i reckon if your car was originally a 49 states car (EC-B) it would have had the "corrected" emission sticker given the VIN number. its later than the Vin for the recent one we just found.

and given eyeballing your original vin sticker (blurry as it is) seems to say it looks like the the full USEPA and California compliant text from the extent of text on lines - then my guess is your car is an EC-A. originally sold new in california and originally spent its time there. its a guess but based on evidence to date.

Posted by: wonkipop May 8 2024, 08:39 PM

pps

love the star steelies. i'm a huge fan of them. have em on mine too. biggrin.gif

EDIT
there is one other way you can tell what engine was in it - the three digit paint stencil number that was originally on engine tin. if you can remember what that was if it was still there before you did work on the engine and maybe/probably repainted tins.

if the engine was original then 604 or 605 would be an EC-B
and 606 or 607 would be EC-A (california). beerchug.gif

Posted by: wonkipop May 8 2024, 09:05 PM

QUOTE(StarBear @ May 8 2024, 08:05 PM) *

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=24231
@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=104
Mine is the smooth gray type; original still in place.
Body DOT plate is 12/73; Karmann plate is 5/74.
If needed can provide photo and precise Karmann date.


details i have on file for your car are as follows steve.

vin------09760
date 11/73.
from vin sticker photo you had.

k plate # = 4839578 = wed 28 nov 1973.

where is the k plate 5/74 date coming from?

still its interesting it has the smooth grey engine insul pad.
i'll double check that one i have listed after your vin as a black ripple back pad. beerchug.gif

Posted by: friethmiller May 8 2024, 09:19 PM

QUOTE(wonkipop @ May 8 2024, 09:39 PM) *

pps

love the star steelies. i'm a huge fan of them. have em on mine too. biggrin.gif

EDIT
there is one other way you can tell what engine was in it - the three digit paint stencil number that was originally on engine tin. if you can remember what that was if it was still there before you did work on the engine and maybe/probably repainted tins.

if the engine was original then 604 or 605 would be an EC-B
and 606 or 607 would be EC-A (california). beerchug.gif

Thanks! I love the steelies too. My tins numbers were not legible. Here’s the best photo I have prior to the rebuild.

Attached Image

Posted by: wonkipop May 8 2024, 09:43 PM

QUOTE(friethmiller @ May 8 2024, 09:19 PM) *

QUOTE(wonkipop @ May 8 2024, 09:39 PM) *

pps

love the star steelies. i'm a huge fan of them. have em on mine too. biggrin.gif

EDIT
there is one other way you can tell what engine was in it - the three digit paint stencil number that was originally on engine tin. if you can remember what that was if it was still there before you did work on the engine and maybe/probably repainted tins.

if the engine was original then 604 or 605 would be an EC-B
and 606 or 607 would be EC-A (california). beerchug.gif

Thanks! I love the steelies too. My tins numbers were not legible. Here’s the best photo I have prior to the rebuild.

Attached Image


sometimes the number was on the rhs side tin.
guess it depended on whether hans or heinrich had a hangover the day they had the potatoe stamp out.

Posted by: StarBear May 9 2024, 07:00 AM

QUOTE(wonkipop @ May 8 2024, 11:05 PM) *

QUOTE(StarBear @ May 8 2024, 08:05 PM) *

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=24231
@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=104
Mine is the smooth gray type; original still in place.
Body DOT plate is 12/73; Karmann plate is 5/74.
If needed can provide photo and precise Karmann date.


details i have on file for your car are as follows steve.

vin------09760
date 11/73.
from vin sticker photo you had.

k plate # = 4839578 = wed 28 nov 1973.

where is the k plate 5/74 date coming from?

still its interesting it has the smooth grey engine insul pad.
i'll double check that one i have listed after your vin as a black ripple back pad. beerchug.gif

You are correct. My bad. Don’t know what I was recalling. Thanks!
Back pad definitely not ripple. Because it has appearance group?

Posted by: StarBear May 9 2024, 07:05 AM

My backpad. Original.
Attached Image

Posted by: wonkipop May 9 2024, 07:34 AM

QUOTE(StarBear @ May 9 2024, 07:00 AM) *

QUOTE(wonkipop @ May 8 2024, 11:05 PM) *

QUOTE(StarBear @ May 8 2024, 08:05 PM) *

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=24231
@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=104
Mine is the smooth gray type; original still in place.
Body DOT plate is 12/73; Karmann plate is 5/74.
If needed can provide photo and precise Karmann date.


details i have on file for your car are as follows steve.

vin------09760
date 11/73.
from vin sticker photo you had.

k plate # = 4839578 = wed 28 nov 1973.

where is the k plate 5/74 date coming from?

still its interesting it has the smooth grey engine insul pad.
i'll double check that one i have listed after your vin as a black ripple back pad. beerchug.gif

You are correct. My bad. Don’t know what I was recalling. Thanks!
Back pad definitely not ripple. Because it has appearance group?


no its not an appearance group thing.
the examples suggest its a production line cluster.
two of them are only 40 cars apart (see the first page of the spread sheets, the ones that are slightly earlier than yours.

no doubt about yours though - def smooth grey.

in the end the sample i have whilst it does broadly speaking sample every month is but a drop in the ocean of the thousands produced.
i think my sample is suggestive of something but you would need a lot more examples to get to the bottom of it, it could even be that certain weeks on the production line got supplied with the black ripple type. definitely the grey ones are by far the more common type. several of the examples of the black ripple type seem entirely trustworthy and are original cars. i would certainly trust the one in the porsche museum i feel that is a very original car.

later on (see last page of spreadsheet) i have two examples that are literally the car after the other. and one has the black ripple. but the one that immediately precedes it off the production line had had its pad removed. that would have been very compelling to have but unfortunately........thwarted. smile.gif

its possible that the one after yours on the spreadsheet is not a trustworthy black ripple pad car.
its been restored. the pad may or may not be original to the car.
so yours might be after the point where they were installing black ripple pads and were installing smooth grey again. very hard to be 100% definitive on the car listed after you.
the ones before you seem very definitive though.

Posted by: wonkipop May 19 2024, 04:11 PM

QUOTE(wonkipop @ May 3 2024, 03:38 PM) *

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=10753

more 74 minutiae?
i recently collected some BAT data on 1.8
( a new member @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=28029 now has the car biggrin.gif )
i noticed this. not something you normally pick re details. beer.gif

Attached Image

can't tell if its my imagination or i am seeing what i think is there.
metal (chrome?) visor pins.
its a 11/73 car.

my car has black plastic visor pins. is a 01/74 build.
you have a 11/73 car @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=10753 . what are the pins on yours.

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=104 ?


@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=10753 @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=104

just got some info from member Artfrombama.
he has a very original intact 1.8. 12/73.
its between your car StarBear and VanB's car. build date is 6th Dec 73.

it has the black plastic pins for the sun visors.

additionally it still has its original windscreen. its a SIGLA.
same as your car StarBear and Van's car.
so they were batching SIGLA Screens for sure during late Nov and into Dec 73 before they went back to using kinonglas screens.



Posted by: StarBear May 19 2024, 05:17 PM

Minutia rules!!! biggrin.gif

Posted by: JeffBowlsby May 22 2024, 08:08 AM

My original BB VIN 4742914536 has its original black sunvisor pins, SIGLA windshield and smooth grey engine bay pad.

Posted by: Artfrombama May 22 2024, 12:16 PM

QUOTE(JeffBowlsby @ May 22 2024, 09:08 AM) *

My original BB VIN 4742914536 has its original black sunvisor pins, SIGLA windshield and smooth grey engine bay pad.

As does #4742910621

Posted by: wonkipop May 22 2024, 04:22 PM

thanks gents.

a few things have been cracked about the 74s out of data concentrating on the harmless and humble 1.8s. beerchug.gif

those black ripple back pads seem to be very concentrated in 2 weeks in Nov 73.
who knows.

i probably should sit down and put all this data in one concentrated table.
its presently scattered throughout this topic as we found the various changes over last 4 years.

Posted by: davep May 25 2024, 12:28 PM

This is great work that you have done! I am very grateful that I am not the only one to tackle the challenges of documenting these cars. I am not sure if you are aware of the transition of the Karmann body # from the rear trunk floor to the front trunk tag. This appears to occur in a progression from holes punched into the panels (left or right) to having the tags installed. This is near 4742917000.

Posted by: StarBear May 25 2024, 12:43 PM

Another rabbit hole to explore! Yay!!!
Mine is near that VIN. I’ll check, as my recollection fails me at the moment.
All hail, minutia!

Posted by: wonkipop May 25 2024, 02:45 PM

QUOTE(davep @ May 25 2024, 12:28 PM) *

This is great work that you have done! I am very grateful that I am not the only one to tackle the challenges of documenting these cars. I am not sure if you are aware of the transition of the Karmann body # from the rear trunk floor to the front trunk tag. This appears to occur in a progression from holes punched into the panels (left or right) to having the tags installed. This is near 4742917000.



yes. did notice that one along the way with 1.8s.
but not with the accuracy you have dave.

Posted by: davep May 25 2024, 04:19 PM

This is my thread for research on this:
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=76497

Posted by: StarBear May 25 2024, 04:35 PM

QUOTE(StarBear @ May 25 2024, 02:43 PM) *

Another rabbit hole to explore! Yay!!!
Mine is near that VIN. I’ll check, as my recollection fails me at the moment.
All hail, minutia!

Checked. Yep, mine is on the right front wheel housing in the frunck. 2909760.

Posted by: wonkipop May 25 2024, 05:06 PM

QUOTE(davep @ May 25 2024, 04:19 PM) *

This is my thread for research on this:
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=76497


yes dave, know the thread. posted some stuff there for you a little while back.

increasingly my theory around all the numerous minutia (as steve calls them) changes is that VW begins to revolutionise with the increasing use of plastics for components.
this co-incides with the introduction of the water cooled models - passat, golf and importantly scirocco. the scirocco is the first into production and it happens at karmann factory. so you start to see things like plastic pins for sun visors instead of chrome metal, plastic components in the fuel system like the plastic expansion tank on the fuel tank. plastic components in the vapor emissions system. and the more archaic and indiosyncratic karmann practices for body identification stamps are brought into line with VW standardised methodoloy - ie the rivetted production number tags in the front trunk. the 74 914s benefit or a recipients of the big changes that came with the water cooled cars and the overhaul of VW manufacture. probably down to rudolph liedling driving that overhaul bringing VW back from the edge of bankruptcy.

and of course. L Jetronic. (not having a go at the D jet guys, it was revolutionary).
L jet gets its first try out in the last of the aircooled cars with the type 4 engines.
and then its all L jetronic and no more D jetronic for VW (at least for USA VWs).
here in Aus we missed all that. VW stayed with carbs for another decade with models sold here, similar to Europe and South Africa. so our markets never got these original systems versions. these days mechanics still marvel at my L jet - as an archaic curiousity - since anything they see down here is much later on in L jet development.

Posted by: davep May 25 2024, 05:26 PM

True, and also Porsche assumes full control over the VW-Porsche marketing group and asserts more control over the 914.

Posted by: wonkipop May 25 2024, 07:10 PM

QUOTE(davep @ May 25 2024, 05:26 PM) *

True, and also Porsche assumes full control over the VW-Porsche marketing group and asserts more control over the 914.


although that itself is smudgy territory if you think about it because VW actually markets porsches in the USA via Audi/Porsche which is a division of VW north america.

i am more inclined to think that VW still takes a very active interest in the technical side of things as L jet is a Bosch driven thing with VW. Porsche itself has no interest in L jetronic really until I think they start putting it on the 964. sure its in the 912E but thats because porsche can't source a 4 cylinder from anywhere else that can meet USA emissions laws in 1976. but thats pretty much it for that tech in 911s etc until the very late 80s. except for the 924. and thats another VW engine. biggrin.gif

my sense is that Porsche via Audi/Porsche determine more actively how the 914 is packaged for north american sales. It was still selling ok in North America in 1974.
In Europe it wasn't. It was already over in a way. The scirocco saw to that in 1974 and sealed its fate on the continent. Sold at a rate 4 times the 914. VW was swinging its attention on to its water-cooled models and in a way also its first real sports car with that karmann built scirocco. All of its own making too, no involvement from Porsche. And it actually went. reasonably fast. fast enough to compete with lower model Alfas and Fiats etc.

You can't dismiss that its VW who are building the 914 in one of their factories.
Not Porsche. They don't build it. I think production line decisions and components are very much VW territory right to the end of the 914. even the fabulous tartan interiors of late 914s are nothing other than scirocco materials and components, designed first and foremost for the scirocco not the 914.

The success of the scirocco also pretty much killed off the 924 as originally envisaged too, dead in its tracks - at least as a possible VW sports car.
Porsche got a last minute reprieve with that. more than anything VW just needed something to do with the NSU factory after shutting down the wankel RO80 or Porsche would not even have been in a position to build the 924? at least not in the production numbers and scale that made it stack up on the $.

Just as well really. Australia got the 924. right hand drive. made up for never getting the 914. also VW never brought the scirocco to Australia. suspect if they had it would have robbed Porsche sales of the 924?

Posted by: wonkipop May 25 2024, 07:43 PM

dave - 1974 on is actually a very interesting moment in VW and in Porsche's history.
or should i say from about late 1971 - early 1972 on.
and not a lot of very good history has been written about it.
though i am sure that some will be written soon.

the 914 is like the book end to piech's first career so to speak.
career 1 ends in disaster despite the racing successes.

piech does a lot of interesting things in the couple of years between getting the neck at porsche over the fiasco with the Golf replacement and the termination of porsche's lucrative engineering contract with VW and popping up again at Audi where his mother used her influence to have him placed.

everbody tends to think R. Leidling ruined him.
but i don't think so. i like to think R. Leidling made him. or gave him the second chance to remake himself.

the 914 just drifts off into oblivion in the aftermath of the fiasco of 72.
whether porsche took over marketing or not.
even porsche's mind was turned elsewhere.

Powered by Invision Power Board (http://www.invisionboard.com)
© Invision Power Services (http://www.invisionpower.com)