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914World.com _ Originality and History _ Wheels and Tires
Posted by: Pat Garvey Apr 3 2007, 08:16 PM
It ocurs to me that we've forgotten the various combination of wheel offered by the factory for 914's.
I see to recollect (VERY dangerous) that there were:
Steel - four versions (maybe 5)
Alloy - five versions
I know there were different widths available in some, but I'm talking about design.
I'll start - these are 5 1/2J steel wheels from an early car with appearance group. Yes, they've been rstored & no, they do not have the proper flat black center spray around the lugs.
Pat
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Posted by: Jasfsmith Apr 4 2007, 09:07 AM
5 1/2" x 15" 10-spoke MAHLE "gasburner" wheels, optional on 914-6's in 1970.
And what they look like on the car.
BTW, for CW's, even though I got the crests to line up vertically, I was dinged for not having the correct tire size at the Portland Parade. Ouch. New XAS's of the correct size are going on shortly.
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Posted by: 1970 Neun vierzehn Apr 4 2007, 01:19 PM
An early 5.5 x 15 Pedrinni
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Posted by: 1970 Neun vierzehn Apr 4 2007, 01:49 PM
Pat,
Iffen those be the jackstands you plan to use that show in your initial pic.....GET NEW ONES!
Posted by: Johny Blackstain Apr 4 2007, 01:51 PM
Pat,
Iffen those be the jackstands you plan to use that show in your initial pic.....GET NEW ONES!
100%!!
Posted by: Johny Blackstain Apr 4 2007, 02:13 PM
15"x5.5" 4 bolt Creamsicle Mahle.
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Posted by: Pat Garvey Apr 4 2007, 07:55 PM
Pat,
Iffen those be the jackstands you plan to use that show in your initial pic.....GET NEW ONES!
Paulie - what's the prob with the jackstand? I don't get it???!!!
Pat
Posted by: Pat Garvey Apr 4 2007, 07:59 PM
5 1/2" x 15" 10-spoke MAHLE "gasburner" wheels, optional on 914-6's in 1970.
And what they look like on the car.
BTW, for CW's, even though I got the crests to line up vertically, I was dinged for not having the correct tire size at the Portland Parade. Ouch. New XAS's of the correct size are going on shortly.
Are you getting them from Cocker?
Happy to hear from you & hope you're better!!!
Pat
Posted by: Johny Blackstain Apr 5 2007, 01:52 PM
Pat,
Iffen those be the jackstands you plan to use that show in your initial pic.....GET NEW ONES!
Paulie - what's the prob with the jackstand? I don't get it???!!!
Pat
Pat- that is the exact stlye of Jackstand that just failed on Gint. His 914 broke his nose & practically crushed his face. I never had a problem w/ them either but after reading the thread his wife wrote on what happened to him I'm getting rid of mine & using pinned tripods only.
Posted by: Pat Garvey Apr 5 2007, 07:02 PM
I' wichha Johnny!
Going shopping tomorrow for new stands, even though the ones I use have never created a problem.
Nothing wrong with better technology!
Pat
Posted by: Jasfsmith Apr 6 2007, 09:05 AM
5 1/2" x 15" 10-spoke MAHLE "gasburner" wheels, optional on 914-6's in 1970.
And what they look like on the car.
BTW, for CW's, even though I got the crests to line up vertically, I was dinged for not having the correct tire size at the Portland Parade. Ouch. New XAS's of the correct size are going on shortly.
Are you getting them from Cocker?
Happy to hear from you & hope you're better!!!
Pat
Coker Tire complete with inner tubes. $$$ouch. Now all I need to do is find someone with a tire changer who will be gentle with the wheels.
I'm still in recovery from the last surgery. I'm able to go to my office, however after 5-6 hours I run out of steam. Foolishly I tried inspect the front end of the 6 last week. Got down just fine (funny how gravity works that way). Took me 10 minutes to crawl to my bench to pull myself backup.
Posted by: Pat Garvey Apr 6 2007, 08:11 PM
5 1/2" x 15" 10-spoke MAHLE "gasburner" wheels, optional on 914-6's in 1970.
And what they look like on the car.
BTW, for CW's, even though I got the crests to line up vertically, I was dinged for not having the correct tire size at the Portland Parade. Ouch. New XAS's of the correct size are going on shortly.
Are you getting them from Cocker?
Happy to hear from you & hope you're better!!!
Pat
Coker Tire complete with inner tubes. $$$ouch. Now all I need to do is find someone with a tire changer who will be gentle with the wheels.
I'm still in recovery from the last surgery. I'm able to go to my office, however after 5-6 hours I run out of steam. Foolishly I tried inspect the front end of the 6 last week. Got down just fine (funny how gravity works that way). Took me 10 minutes to crawl to my bench to pull myself backup.
James, it's a start! I know how the gravity thing works too - bad knees & hips & getting worse every year. Keep your spirits up bud - you be OK.
As to the Coker thing - I need to do the same thing. PM me with the cost they quoted you please - I know they're expensive, but they ARE new tires & period correct. I know it won't do you any good in Maine, but there are more & more tire shops with equipment that don't damage the wheels. I just found out about one 10 miles from me that doesn't even touch them. Check around your area. Bet there's a similar place.
Pat
Posted by: Pat Garvey Apr 6 2007, 08:12 PM
What? No one has Fuchs alloys?
Posted by: Johny Blackstain Apr 6 2007, 09:49 PM
What? No one has Fuchs alloys?
I do but they're not original 914, more like original 944
.
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Posted by: Jasfsmith Apr 8 2007, 09:48 AM
As to the Coker thing - I need to do the same thing. PM me with the cost they quoted you please - I know they're expensive, but they ARE new tires & period correct. I know it won't do you any good in Maine, but there are more & more tire shops with equipment that don't damage the wheels. I just found out about one 10 miles from me that doesn't even touch them. Check around your area. Bet there's a similar place.
Pat
No deals, straight $191 per tire plus $24.95 for the inner tube. They had a good price on Vredestein Sprint's ($89/per) which recall seeing on several 914's back in the early '70's. I opted for the XAS's having the original mounted spare.
Coker tire web: www.store.coker.com
(BTW, I scored a set of year old XAS's, (new, with original shipping labels and shiiping straps as received by the eBay seller from Coker) off eBay at half the price. Still had to by the inner tubes though. Damn, they are skinny.)
Posted by: McMark Apr 30 2007, 04:11 AM
Four bolt fuchs. Black backgrounds are not original. - 5.5 x 15
Pedrini - 5.5 x 15
Mahel - 5.5 x 15
Posted by: Pat Garvey Apr 30 2007, 07:27 PM
Thanks McMark - burgers on me!
Finally a Fuchs, though that black stuff needs to come off!
What about wheels from the sixers?!
Pat
Posted by: McMark May 7 2007, 04:10 AM
More wheels:
These are the fuchs that came on the 914/6. These are 14 x 5.5". The pictures is on a 912, but the wheels are identical.
This is the original finish on four bolt fuchs. Again, 15 x 5.5".
This is a bad picture of the other style of steel wheel. Again, 15 x 5.5"
The list of original wheels, according to the PET are:
914/6 - steel, fuchs, mahles
914 - steel early/hubcap, steel late, fuchs, pedrini, mahle
Posted by: sendjonathanmail May 11 2007, 10:03 PM
heres mine... 
Posted by: Dan (Almaden Valley) May 12 2007, 12:37 AM
here are mine after hand polishing
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Posted by: Pat Garvey May 12 2007, 08:25 PM
here are mine after hand polishing
Dan, those are gorgeous! Question, though. Assuming you've polished off the anodizing, how frequently do you think repolishing will be necessary? This is NOT a slam BTW, I'm just curious.
Pat
Posted by: robby750 May 17 2007, 10:18 PM
here are mine after hand polishing
Dan, those are gorgeous! Question, though. Assuming you've polished off the anodizing, how frequently do you think repolishing will be necessary? This is NOT a slam BTW, I'm just curious.
Pat
I polished the spokes on mine and they only require touch up about once a year. Probably less than an hour to do them all.
Posted by: nowlings Jun 21 2007, 05:31 PM
In reference to the 4 bolt fuchs, I notice that in most that I look at there are either no center caps (missing), or a cheap looking plain (plastic chrome?) cap on them. Are the Porsche crest caps that you use on the 911 fuchs also interchangeable to this 4 bolt style or does it require a different type center cap. I'm still new to 914s and learning something new every day. 
Posted by: 1970 Neun vierzehn Jun 21 2007, 05:44 PM
The center caps used on 5 bolt Fuchs alloys are not interchangable with those with the 4 bolt fitment. And yes, it does seem that most of the time that they are shown, those metal center caps seem to be dented. Those of us who have a set of perfect center caps guard them closely 
Posted by: nowlings Jun 21 2007, 05:55 PM
The center caps used on 5 bolt Fuchs alloys are not interchangable with those with the 4 bolt fitment. And yes, it does seem that most of the time that they are shown, those metal center caps seem to be dented. Those of us who have a set of perfect center caps guard them closely
Thanks for the info.. Are there any Porsche Crest center caps available aftermarket that you know of from one of the vendors out there?
Posted by: Pat Garvey Jun 21 2007, 06:01 PM
The center caps used on 5 bolt Fuchs alloys are not interchangable with those with the 4 bolt fitment. And yes, it does seem that most of the time that they are shown, those metal center caps seem to be dented. Those of us who have a set of perfect center caps guard them closely
Thanks for the info.. Are there any Porsche Crest center caps available aftermarket that you know of from one of the vendors out there?
I think Perf Products has/had some that are stick on. Don't know if they still do, or how long they last. May give them a try, though.
Posted by: nowlings Jun 21 2007, 06:12 PM
The center caps used on 5 bolt Fuchs alloys are not interchangable with those with the 4 bolt fitment. And yes, it does seem that most of the time that they are shown, those metal center caps seem to be dented. Those of us who have a set of perfect center caps guard them closely
Thanks for the info.. Are there any Porsche Crest center caps available aftermarket that you know of from one of the vendors out there?
I think Perf Products has/had some that are stick on. Don't know if they still do, or how long they last. May give them a try, though.
Thanks for the lead Pat...I just found a Performance product catalog and I checked online. Yes, they do have the crest caps...For $74.95 each! Good news is that they are on sale now, so a set will only cost a little over $250.00 plus tax. 
I guess this is what the market is on these things.
Posted by: Pat Garvey Jun 21 2007, 06:17 PM
The center caps used on 5 bolt Fuchs alloys are not interchangable with those with the 4 bolt fitment. And yes, it does seem that most of the time that they are shown, those metal center caps seem to be dented. Those of us who have a set of perfect center caps guard them closely
Thanks for the info.. Are there any Porsche Crest center caps available aftermarket that you know of from one of the vendors out there?
I think Perf Products has/had some that are stick on. Don't know if they still do, or how long they last. May give them a try, though.
Thanks for the lead Pat...I just found a Performance product catalog and I checked online. Yes, they do have the crest caps...For $74.95 each! Good news is that they are on sale now, so a set will only cost a little over $250.00 plus tax. I guess this is what the market is on these things.GULP! Hope you want them badly!
Posted by: Pat Garvey Aug 6 2007, 09:34 PM
Ok, we have several threads going that have been hijacked to "We Be Tires for CW's". Let's start fresh here, so it's all in one place.
Here's the gist! Many of us want appropriate tires for our CW 914's. To do so, requires a HUGE outlay for tires that were designed 35 or more years ago. Yeah, they're available, but the price can be outrageous (IS outrageous, in my estimation).
So what can we do about it?
Let's rehash the side threads here, so all can see easilly.
As I see it, the primary questions are:
1. Are vintage tires available? And I'm talking about original sizes. Where? How much? What are the advantages/disadvantages of these tires?
2. Are contemporary tires available in vintage sizes? Same questions as in #1.
3. Who's doing what about this situation? Are you caving to current tires, etc.? Why/why not?
4. Are the concours advantages to remanufactured vintage-sized tires worth worth the cost, from a performance/safety point of view versus maintaing purity?
Pat
Posted by: Jasfsmith Aug 7 2007, 12:52 PM
Ok, we have several threads going that have been hijacked to "We Be Tires for CW's". Let's start fresh here, so it's all in one place.
As I see it, the primary questions are:
1. Are vintage tires available? And I'm talking about original sizes. Where? How much? What are the advantages/disadvantages of these tires?
2. Are contemporary tires available in vintage sizes? Same questions as in #1.
3. Who's doing what about this situation? Are you caving to current tires, etc.? Why/why not?
4. Are the concours advantages to remanufactured vintage-sized tires worth worth the cost, from a performance/safety point of view versus maintaing purity?
Pat
First thing is to establish what constitutes the original tire provided by Porsche. From what I can find:
914-4's came with either 4 1/2" J x 15 with 155SR15 tires
or 5 1/2" J x 15 with 165HR15 tires
914-6's came with 5 1/2" J x 15 with 165HR15 tires
or 5 1/2" J x 14 with 185HR14 tires
The combination of of rim size and tire offering appears to be independent of whether it is a steel wheel or alloy.
I know Michelin ZX (155SR15), XAS (165HR15) and XWX (185HR14) appeared on delivered cars in the US. I can recall both a Dunlop and Continental tire also appearing but for the life of me I cannot recall the model name that they offered.
My point is, nowhere can I find mention of the tire brand provided, either is spec books or advertisements.
Vredstein Sprint was a favorite during the '70's as a replacement tire. Uniroyal, Firestone, BF Goodrich and Goodyear all had matching tire sizes.
Both XAS (165HR15) and Vredstein (155SR15 and 165HR15) are available from Coker Tire at $191, $79 and $89 respectively.
Having run several lower profile "contemporary" tires, and currently the XAS's, only disadvantage I have found is the "skinny" vs. "wide" appearance. On the plus side, with the XAS's, my speedometer finally is correct, and the ride is less harsh. If I were autox'ing, I'd want the lower profile for sure. Cost of the XAS is high compared to the majority of contemporary tires running around $85-$90.
There are other tires of the period that would fit, however they do not have the correct speed rating.
Contenporary tires I've found that match include BFGoodrich Radial TA (155SR15) at $62.
I opted to go the XAS route as my spare wheel has the original 165HR15 XAS on it and I am not likely to campaign my 914-6 is any autocrosses. That and an eBay deal that I could not refuse (seller purchased the Coker Tires and must have decided that they were to "skinny" for his liking.)
From a performance and safety point of view, I don't see any problem with using the Coker Tires, as it is my understanding that the tires are today's construction techniques with the original molds used for tread and sidewalls. The HR speed rating is certainly adequate for my needs.
How far you go in respect to obtaining a Concours advantage is open to question. If I hadn't had the original spare, I most likely would have opted for the Vredstein to save some cash.
If I had a VERY prepared car underside, I might have opted for the contemporary tires, and acknowledge that I may receive a demerit or point reduction during a Concours judging.
Knowing what class your going to be entered in may also enter into your decision on which way to go. Only in the Preservation Class would I think it necessary to have the original tire size of whatever brand that is available.
Posted by: Johny Blackstain Aug 7 2007, 06:05 PM
If James is correct in his post above it would seem the Vredestein would be the appropriate tire for me @ Concours. They have a 165HR15 & would appear to be period correct.
James, you are aware though that the Michelin XAS is a tubed tire & will not fit onto a Mahle or a Fuchs? The only tubeless Michelin available is the XZX, @ $131.00/per (Coker), & SR rated. Also, my Kardex says I have to have HR tires so there is documentation that says what tires the car came w/ besides the tank sticker. To preserve a car properly would involve not only the right size but the right rating.
I've chosen to go w/ the OEM gambit- "Dunlop SP 57" 165HR15 was my original tire. "Dunlop SP Sport A2+" 195/65HR15 is what she'll have in Charolette. Both are HR rated & both are the "SP" model from Dunlop. I am planning on bringing my Kardex, Bill of Sale & COA to Charolette, as required? Should I bring my old "SP57" as well?
I would also presume from James's posting that the Kuhmo 165/80HR15 available from "The Tire Rack" @ $32.00/per is the best choice for every CW except those in preservation, because Kuhmo was not around in 1976.
BTW- sick as a dog... summertime flu has got me again. I can go outside in shorts & a T shirt in winter & not get sick. In & out of AC into the Southern heat is murder on my body. 
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Posted by: Pat Garvey Aug 7 2007, 08:06 PM
I'm awaiting additional responses. But, at this point I'm thinking I won't go original spec.
Why? Because by late fall of this year or next spring my 914 will be driveable to my expectations. That means that all mechanical parts (including the calipers) will be in "as new" condition. Other than the brakes, things will only be refurbished - not rebuilt. From 2008 on, I plan on using my 914 as it was used in the eraly years. I'll drive it to work, I'll drive it to restaurants - I'll use it. It'll still be a CW car, but it's going to be used in good weather - no more garge queen! Life's too short & I've made my decision.
So, I'm about to cave on tires. Though I'll probably get some decent street tires for my chromes, I'll still need some CW tires for the steelies.
Someone tell me more about the Kumho's, because I think size will win over "name" at Charlotte.
Pat
Posted by: Johny Blackstain Aug 7 2007, 08:12 PM
Pat- here is the link to the Kuhmos on The Tire Rack. I have Kuhmos on my truck & love them. These are TR rated, not SR or HR but @ $32.00/per I would think they're worth it. Rather suspicious that they're on backorder, no?
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Kumho&tireModel=Power+Star+758&vehicleSearch=false&partnum=68TR5758&fromCompare1=yes&place=0
Posted by: Porsche Rescue Aug 7 2007, 08:54 PM
I once put the Kuhmos on a 66 911 with stock 4.5" chromes and they were fine in both appearance and handling.
James, I recall new 914's (four only) coming with the S rated Michelin ZX. Could be wrong, but wondering if the H tire was a "six" thing or LE thing.
Posted by: Pat Garvey Aug 7 2007, 09:19 PM
Pat- here is the link to the Kuhmos on The Tire Rack. I have Kuhmos on my truck & love them. These are TR rated, not SR or HR but @ $32.00/per I would think they're worth it. Rather suspicious that they're on backorder, no?
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Kumho&tireModel=Power+Star+758&vehicleSearch=false&partnum=68TR5758&fromCompare1=yes&place=0
Al,
Know what scares me? Two things:
1. Haven't bought 914 tires in 28 years ( think about it - where were you when I bought my last set)
2. Tthough I know of the brand, know nothing about the quality.
3. Will they be accepted, regardless of proper sizing by concours judges?
4. They are just way too cheap - why?
Pat
Posted by: Johny Blackstain Aug 7 2007, 09:33 PM
Al,
Know what scares me? Two things:
1. Haven't bought 914 tires in 28 years ( think about it - where were you when I bought my last set)
2. Tthough I know of the brand, know nothing about the quality.
3. Will they be accepted, regardless of proper sizing by concours judges?
4. They are just way too cheap - why?
Pat
Pat- 28 yrs ago I was 16, in high school & Pop had replaced 4 of the 5 Dunlops w/ Avanti tires
. Kuhmo is a new guy on the block regarding tires so they're trying to undercut everyone's prices. I have "Kuhmo Ecsta AST's" on the truck & they rock, honestly. Wearing well, good grip & because of the size (245/50HR16) transfer most of my available power to the road. I have no idea if Kuhmos would be accepted in Preservation but see no reason at all why they would not be accepted in all the other divisions.
Posted by: Jasfsmith Aug 8 2007, 08:14 AM
James, you are aware though that the Michelin XAS is a tubed tire & will not fit onto a Mahle or a Fuchs? The only tubeless Michelin available is the XZX, @ $131.00/per (Coker), & SR rated. Also, my Kardex says I have to have HR tires so there is documentation that says what tires the car came w/ besides the tank sticker. To preserve a car properly would involve not only the right size but the right rating.
I've chosen to go w/ the OEM gambit- "Dunlop SP 57" 165HR15 was my original tire. "Dunlop SP Sport A2+" 195/65HR15 is what she'll have in Charolette. Both are HR rated & both are the "SP" model from Dunlop. I am planning on bringing my Kardex, Bill of Sale & COA to Charolette, as required? Should I bring my old "SP57" as well?
Yes, I am aware that XAS are tube type (a pain to balance and more $$). My Mahle's (5 bolt) accept them without any problems. I've not found any restrictions to tubetype tires and Mahles/Fuchs anywhere.
As I theorize, to be period correct, the tire must have the correct size (width and profile, and speed rating. In my case the ZXZ would not meet the speed rating.
The use of 195/65HR15 in my opinion would not meet the original spec as the width and profile is different than the 165HR15 that your sticker indicates. I'm not sure what good bringing an old "SP57" when you have newer profile "A2's" mounted, other than pointing out that you have different tires. <grin>
Posted by: Jasfsmith Aug 8 2007, 08:22 AM
I'm awaiting additional responses. But, at this point I'm thinking I won't go original spec.
Why? Because by late fall of this year or next spring my 914 will be driveable to my expectations. That means that all mechanical parts (including the calipers) will be in "as new" condition. Other than the brakes, things will only be refurbished - not rebuilt. From 2008 on, I plan on using my 914 as it was used in the eraly years. I'll drive it to work, I'll drive it to restaurants - I'll use it. It'll still be a CW car, but it's going to be used in good weather - no more garge queen! Life's too short & I've made my decision.
So, I'm about to cave on tires. Though I'll probably get some decent street tires for my chromes, I'll still need some CW tires for the steelies.
Someone tell me more about the Kumho's, because I think size will win over "name" at Charlotte.
Pat
I have a set of Concours Fuchs (5 1/2" x 14) with low profile tyres on them for a similar purpose (the Mahle's intended for show and the Fuch's for go). Unfortunately, I find it a pain to swap them over, and the Mahle's are on most of the time.
Posted by: Jasfsmith Aug 8 2007, 08:29 AM
I once put the Kuhmos on a 66 911 with stock 4.5" chromes and they were fine in both appearance and handling.
James, I recall new 914's (four only) coming with the S rated Michelin ZX. Could be wrong, but wondering if the H tire was a "six" thing or LE thing.
Early steel wheels on the 914-4 were 4 1/2"x15" shod with 155SR15 tyres. Late style steel wheels were 5 1/2"x15" with 165HR tyres. The optional alloys (when offered) were 5 1/2"x15" with 165HR's.
All 914-6 (other than the M optioned) were 5 1/2"x15" steel with 165HR or 5 1/2"x15" alloy with 165HR and 5 1/2"x14" alloy with 185HR15 tyres. The M otion I believe were all shipped with 6" wide Fuchs and had 185/70 series tyres (XWX?). At least as far as I can tell (reviewing the few Owner's manuals I have, tyre literature I've stashed, and the factory manual). Perhaps someone could confirm my findings.
Posted by: Jasfsmith Aug 8 2007, 08:41 AM
If James is correct in his post above it would seem the Vredestein would be the appropriate tire for me @ Concours. They have a 165HR15 & would appear to be period correct.
....
I would also presume from James's posting that the Kuhmo 165/80HR15 available from "The Tire Rack" @ $32.00/per is the best choice for every CW except those in preservation, because Kuhmo was not around in 1976.
BTW- sick as a dog... summertime flu has got me again. I can go outside in shorts & a T shirt in winter & not get sick. In & out of AC into the Southern heat is murder on my body.
Vredestein would be a correct chose. I also recall that many hotshoes raved about them at autox's back then. I suspect it had more todo with the rubber compound than tread design.
Your assumption about the Kuhmo's is not quite right. As it has been pointed out, the tire is a TR rated not HR. TR's were not offered during the production period.
Posted by: Jasfsmith Aug 8 2007, 08:55 AM
3. Will they be accepted, regardless of proper sizing by concours judges?
Pat
They shouldn't be, however as you know, it really dependents on how knowledgeable the judge is in such things on 914's.
I won't say a thing about anything incorrect on your car to the judges, however I will bring to their attention special items (such as correct tires) on mine. <grin>
Shell out the added $$ Pat and get the period correct tire for the Concours wheels. It will likely be a one time purchase....
Posted by: Porsche Rescue Aug 8 2007, 10:01 AM
One more time James: (my need is for a '69 912 but don't hold that against me) It sounds like the two closest to OE choices in 2007 for a car originally equipped with 165HR 15 tires (my owners manual shows pics of the Dunlop "dogbone", which I guess is the SP57) are the Vredestein at $89 from Coker or the Michelin XAS at $191 + tube. Is that correct?
Posted by: Jasfsmith Aug 8 2007, 01:38 PM
One more time James: (my need is for a '69 912 but don't hold that against me) It sounds like the two closest to OE choices in 2007 for a car originally equipped with 165HR 15 tires (my owners manual shows pics of the Dunlop "dogbone", which I guess is the SP57) are the Vredestein at $89 from Coker or the Michelin XAS at $191 + tube. Is that correct?
Those are the only two that I've come across so far.
Did the 912 come with a 4 1/2" or 5 1/2" wheel? The reason I ask is I mounted a set of 165HR15's on my 914-4, and it was squirelly. Felt like the sidewalls were rolling under when ever I made a turn at any speed.
BTW, I'd never hold your owning a '69 912 against you. If I had the $$$ and could locate one, a '69 912 would be at the top of my list.
Posted by: Porsche Rescue Aug 8 2007, 01:56 PM
'69 was 5.5 as was '68; 66 & 7 were 4.5
As I mentioned, I had the super cheap Kuhmo 165's on a 66 911 with 4.5's and it was fine. However, I tend to drive my old cars pretty gingerly. Still not sure what I will do with the 912. I was holding my nose and preparing to spend on the Michelin xzx's but after all the discussion here I may just go with a 195/65. I have this thing about originality which is why I am returning to chrome wheels and hub caps rather than the Fuchs which are now on the car. I thought I should go all the way and get 165's. Maybe the Vredestein 165HR's, $192 less than the Michelins.
My car will never enter a true concours. Maybe an occasional "shine and show" where the judges would be clueless.
I do use the car for local PCA tours and sometimes push it a bit. Maybe the modern 195's, hell, I don't know!
Posted by: 1970 Neun vierzehn Aug 9 2007, 10:12 AM
This whole business of perfectly sized, branded and tread patterned tires for a 914 for concours presentation bothers me to some extent.
When the 914 was manufactured, it was produced to a price point (as are virtually all cars except maybe the Bugatti 16.4). The 914 being an entry level car, high performance tires were not in the specification, nor was the tire technology of today available.
The purpose of our cars is to be driven and enjoyed in the manner for which they were designed. With that in mind, in contemporary use, wouldn't you want the best tires that you could afford with the necessary concessions for fitment?
Pat and I have discussed the safety aspects of braking distance variations on current model automobiles and he has expressed the relevance of even mildly shorter braking distances from one make/model to another, Pat's contention being that a 6 foot shorter braking distance from one car to another could mean the difference between having an accident or avoiding one.
With the above stated, therefore, on your way to Parade 2008, or perhaps a 914 World event, or perhaps just driving to work, if some mindless, self-aborbed doofus vaguely aware of driving her luxury SUV while chatting idlely on her cell phone wanders into the path of your treasured 914, wouldn't you want as big a contact patch and as sticky a tire as could be utilized on your 5.5 rims? Or perhaps you are out with your car and suddenly you get caught in a downpour, would you not want to have tires that are current in their design to provide the wet-weather traction and anti-aquaplanning characteristics that are going to provide for a safer and more maneuverable auto? And finally, the greater adhesion provided with a tire that has both a bigger contact patch and a more agressive tread pattern is going to give me a bit more lateral grip so that perhaps I won't have to "white-knuckle" the steering wheel when some Dodge Durango or Honda Civic starts climbing up my tailpipe in the twisties.
I admit to running on 195/60 15s. They look good, fit well, appear not out-of-character to the 914s' design and I have had the pleasure(?) of using the brakes/tires in extremis to avoid a collision. I don't think that 165s would have given me the margain I needed in that situation.
So I'll take the point loss for my lack of OEM spec tires, traded gladly for the improvement in driving performance that they provide.
Paul
Posted by: Porsche Rescue Aug 9 2007, 10:42 AM
All very true and well said Paul.
On the "price point" issue, I am still puzzled about the "H" rated tire on the standard 4 cyl. 914. Does anyone have that documented? I bought a new 914 in '70 and would have sworn the tires were S rated. My 912 does state H tires in the spec. section of the owner's maual. And we know H's came on the six and the LE.
Posted by: Jasfsmith Aug 9 2007, 11:48 AM
This whole business of perfectly sized, branded and tread patterned tires for a 914 for concours presentation bothers me to some extent.
When the 914 was manufactured, it was produced to a price point (as are virtually all cars except maybe the Bugatti 16.4). The 914 being an entry level car, high performance tires were not in the specification, nor was the tire technology of today available.
I wouldn't take exception to your logic if not for the "pure" (Pat will like that word) nature of a Preservation Class in a Concours, AND the law in Maine that dicates that the original tire specs be maintained on all replacement tires for inspection purposes.
If this sounds like a rehash of one of my prior ramblings, bear with me. Maine has been a stickler for correct autombobile OEM acceptable tires for the past few years. Inspection stations have been cited for failure to comply with the law, and tire sales and service won't even quote you on a tire that they know is not meeting OEM specs, let alone mount them. The only way around it is to purchase tires mail order, and mount them yourself, or find a tire service center that will mount them for you (wheels delivered off the car), and then pray that the inspection station misses the tire OEM check. I believe this all came about during the time frame that SUV's were rolling over from incorrect tire sizes.
Now if Porsche would just issue a notice of what current tire sizes are acceptable for earlier Porsche's (as they do with recent models) then we would be golden. I'll bet that Maine is not the only state with the law on the books.
Posted by: Jasfsmith Aug 9 2007, 11:51 AM
All very true and well said Paul.
On the "price point" issue, I am still puzzled about the "H" rated tire on the standard 4 cyl. 914. Does anyone have that documented? I bought a new 914 in '70 and would have sworn the tires were S rated. My 912 does state H tires in the spec. section of the owner's maual. And we know H's came on the six and the LE.
My '70 914-4 came with 155SR15's on steel wheels (4 1/2").
Posted by: Jasfsmith Aug 9 2007, 12:03 PM
I do use the car for local PCA tours and sometimes push it a bit. Maybe the modern 195's, hell, I don't know!
If you were happy with the Kumo's on a 4 1/2" rimmed 911, then you should be equally happy with them on a 912 (less rear end weight).
I certainly wouldn't dismiss the Vredestein's just because of the name. It might be comforting to confirm with Coker Tire that their vintage tires are manufacturered with contemporary fabrications materials and methods with molds from the past (as I understand it), from a performace and safety view point.
BTW, don't forget to factoring the cost of tubes if you go the XAS route.
Posted by: 1970 Neun vierzehn Aug 9 2007, 12:27 PM
My '70 914-4 came with 155SR15's on steel wheels (4 1/2").
The same EOM was on my '70/4, and I'm not going to tiptoe around on that tire/rim combination again.
Paul
Posted by: Johny Blackstain Aug 9 2007, 01:25 PM
I wonder if George can have a custom gas tank sticker made for me that says 195/65HR15... 
Posted by: Pat Garvey Aug 9 2007, 06:57 PM
It seems to me that if you are serious about an event, the thing to do is have the appropriate wheels and tires and a set of drivers.
I know the price seems to be an issue here but... is it really? The proper Michelins for a couple hundred bucks a corner? I'd hate to lose a competition over $800 clams.
If you are planning on driving it as Pat and Paul suggest, there's absolutely no argument that you can fit a better compund, tread pattern and a more agressive size under your stock bodied car. Is it safer? You bet your @$$ it is. For the most part... tires are brakes, as to Paul's example.
All that being said, tires are saftey and wear items. I would think they would be judged differently in Preservation vs. Restoration. People should not be nicked for having the safest available equipment (within reason... I realize a full cage would be safe than not) on a driver.
Eric,
Paul hit the nail on the head, as did you. Better compound,tread = safety. You're comment about not being nicked for more contemporary tires for the preservation class is a good one (anyone from the PCR Committee listening here?).
But there are a couple of problems from MY perspective:
1. I don't want to trailer my 914, which means I have to DRIVE on the retrospective tires. Further, I'd really like to autocross too. That's out of the question with retro tires. Well, a waste of time & tires anyway.
2. No matter what, I'll put 195/60's on my chromes for street driving (another chucnk of bucks)
3. I currently have mounted on my steelies a 28 year old set of Pirelli CN36's. They have less than 5k miles on them, no tubes, hold air & look great (regardless of what Sir Andy says). I also have a 15 year old set of A008r's on my chromes - best tire I've ever had. Maybe 1000 miles. Also function perfectly. No. Iwouldn't trust either set to make the trip to Charlotte - my point is, I buy tires & never get my money's worth from them. So, why should I invest $1,500 bucks in a set of old tech tires that will be useless in 8-10 years.
As you can tell, I'm having real issues with this aspect. Probably more than anything else. No. definitely more than anything else. Problem is, I want a division win. Had two class wins at Parade, but no division win.
The PCR' have me all tied up in knots. Worst case, I'll foot the bill for tires I don't want & will throw away in 5-8 years. I know he heavies I have to beat, in P & R classes & I'll do what it takes. Just wish it didn't have to cost so much for so little.
Pat
Posted by: Jasfsmith Aug 10 2007, 01:48 PM
The PCR' have me all tied up in knots. Worst case, I'll foot the bill for tires I don't want & will throw away in 5-8 years. I know he heavies I have to beat, in P & R classes & I'll do what it takes. Just wish it didn't have to cost so much for so little.
Pat
Sounds like you'll be buying at least one set of tires. Purchase the Vredestein's mount them on your steelies, and drive them. $80/tire is about what you would spent on a decent contemporary tire anyways.
And besides, at our age, eye hand coordination preclude our being competitive in an autocross. Oh, and are your ready to shell out a few hundred dollars for a new helmet? <sigh>
Posted by: Pat Garvey Aug 10 2007, 02:29 PM
The PCR' have me all tied up in knots. Worst case, I'll foot the bill for tires I don't want & will throw away in 5-8 years. I know he heavies I have to beat, in P & R classes & I'll do what it takes. Just wish it didn't have to cost so much for so little.
Pat
Sounds like you'll be buying at least one set of tires. Purchase the Vredestein's mount them on your steelies, and drive them. $80/tire is about what you would spent on a decent contemporary tire anyways.
And besides, at our age, eye hand coordination preclude our being competitive in an autocross. Oh, and are your ready to shell out a few hundred dollars for a new helmet? <sigh>
Speak for yourself old person (heh, heh)! I have friends that are 70 & still auocross & win consistently. One has a Carrera Speedster & the other a GT3. The one with the GT3 is also a DE instructor.
My eye-hand coordination is still pretty could, though it could use some re-training. And yep, I'd spring for the helmet. I think my current one is something like Snell 1928 approved!
Pat
Posted by: Porsche Rescue Aug 10 2007, 02:31 PM
James, are you saying that the 165HR Vredesteins would be as "correct", or even more "correct", than the Michelin XZX 165SR's, and $48 per cheaper?
While I say I was happy with the Kuhmo's on the 911 with 4.5" wheels, I had them mostly for the vintage look and low price and I never drove the car hard. I felt a wider low profile tire on 4.5's would be too "pinched".
Posted by: Jasfsmith Aug 11 2007, 02:51 PM
James, are you saying that the 165HR Vredesteins would be as "correct", or even more "correct", than the Michelin XZX 165SR's, and $48 per cheaper?
Yes, as your manual indicates that a H series tire should be used (no?).
Until someone can show me that the manufacturer made specific recommendations on a brand and model of tire for the any early Porsche, I'd consider a tire that meets to the letter the tire size designation to be correct, and even more so if it is "period" correct (available the year that the Porsche was manufactured).
I'm curious to know whether your 912's manual offers the option of both an SR and HR tire in the same size. From what I've seen on other models, the SR is reserved for the narrower 155 tires and the HR for 165's. Step up once more and the 911''s of the period options included 185/70HR's.
Posted by: Porsche Rescue Aug 11 2007, 06:41 PM
My manual, in the technical data section, specifies 165 HR 15 with 5.5Jx15 wheels only. The tire pictured in the "changing a tire" section is clearly a Dunlop "dogbone" but I'm pretty sure other brands were fitted.
The tag in the engine compartment is another matter. It makes no mention of speed rating, even for the 911S.
912/911T&E Standard 165R15, Optional 185R15 or 185R14
911T&E "Comfort" Standard 185R14, Optional 185R15 or 165R15
911S Standard 185R15, Optional 165R15
Posted by: orthobiz Aug 13 2007, 04:49 PM
Pat! I'm surprised at you. All those nailed threads and all this recent talk about tires and no thread! Anyway, here's my submission:
Original Spare from my 1974 1.8 Steelie
The all-important BACK of the wheel
And the tread:
And my previous owner's Jan 2006 tire purchase:
OK, Pat, just kidding, remember you're only the moderator...
Paul
Posted by: Pat Garvey Aug 13 2007, 05:16 PM
tsk, tsk, tsk!
A man in your position with a stutter!
You had to be there for this folks.
So, what's the consensus - should we nail all tire posts?
Pat
Posted by: orthobiz Aug 13 2007, 05:26 PM
Thanks, Pat, for the posting help.
So, is my spare a Michelin Zx? Seems like there are cars like mine with unused spares. The rubber looks good, could almost put together a set of originals if you could only locate four more!
In keeping with the theme of this forum, perhaps other member's "original size" solutions are best kept here, other tire posts out in the Garage.
Paul
Posted by: orthobiz Aug 13 2007, 05:32 PM
Front and back of the 15" Steelies from 1974 (also available in 75 and 76). Note that the back is some kinda black, almost like an anthracite gray color.
Front
Back
Back closeup
Wonder if it is supposed to be a pure black and my spare may just not have a lot of paint on it?
Paul
Posted by: Porsche Rescue Aug 13 2007, 05:57 PM
Here I go again! Ortho's example is why I think the most "correct" currently available tire for a 914-4 is the Coker Michelin XZX 165SR15.
The first Michelin radials available in the US were the Michelin X. Then Michelin made some changes and called them ZX (same tread pattern). They used both X and ZX on Ortho's tire. Next came the XZX, also same tread pattern. Apparently the sixes and LE's came with H rated tires so they need a different tire to be "pure". However, I think most judges would not know the Michelin SR is not correct.
Posted by: Jasfsmith Aug 14 2007, 07:54 AM
Here I go again! Ortho's example is why I think the most "correct" currently available tire for a 914-4 is the Coker Michelin XZX 165SR15.
The first Michelin radials available in the US were the Michelin X. Then Michelin made some changes and called them ZX (same tread pattern). They used both X and ZX on Ortho's tire. Next came the XZX, also same tread pattern. Apparently the sixes and LE's came with H rated tires so they need a different tire to be "pure". However, I think most judges would not know the Michelin SR is not correct.
Best define whether your referring to an early steel (4 1/2") rim or late style (5 1/2") rim. 155SR15 would be correct on '70-'72 narrow steel rims. <grin>
Posted by: Porsche Rescue Aug 14 2007, 09:55 AM
I'm sure you're right.
When I bought my new 914 in 1970 I ordered optional chrome wheels. It had Michelins but I recall that tire brand could have also been Continental or Dunlop, whatever rolled off the boat.They must have been 5.5's because the tires were 165's. Frankly, at the time I had no thought about wheel width/tire sizes. Just wanted chrome wheels on my tangerine Porsche!
Posted by: Jasfsmith Aug 14 2007, 02:14 PM
I'm sure you're right.
When I bought my new 914 in 1970 I ordered optional chrome wheels. It had Michelins but I recall that tire brand could have also been Continental or Dunlop, whatever rolled off the boat.They must have been 5.5's because the tires were 165's. Frankly, at the time I had no thought about wheel width/tire sizes. Just wanted chrome wheels on my tangerine Porsche!
The chrome early style wheels were 5 1/2". I've been keeping my eyes out for a decent set for the 914-4, however have not come across any that fit the bill.
Posted by: 1970 Neun vierzehn Aug 14 2007, 03:04 PM
The chrome early style wheels were 5 1/2". I've been keeping my eyes out for a decent set for the 914-4, however have not come across any that fit the bill.
James,
Is this what you are looking for? (These were on our esteemed moderators' 914 at the Reston (Va.) Parade in 1979.
Paul
Attached image(s)
Posted by: Porsche Rescue Aug 14 2007, 03:23 PM
Those are aftermarket wheels. The dealer (factory?) option chromes I am familiar with looked identical to the painted steel wheels but were 5.5" wide. In fact I am thinking they were VW wheels, not Porsche. But then much of the car was VW wasn't it. Shown is my car in 1970. Sorry about the quality, digital image of a 37 year old photo on my wall!
Posted by: Pat Garvey Aug 14 2007, 08:04 PM
Those are aftermarket wheels. The dealer (factory?) option chromes I am familiar with looked identical to the painted steel wheels but were 5.5" wide. In fact I am thinking they were VW wheels, not Porsche. But then much of the car was VW wasn't it. Shown is my car in 1970. Sorry about the quality, digital image of a 37 year old photo on my wall!Did they look anything like these - on the red 914. These were from the dealer in late '72. Brazilian made, like all the others. Availabl from J C Whitney at the time. Yeah, I know, not great to hear, but they were available from Whitney & they were VW.
Pat
Attached image(s)
Posted by: Porsche Rescue Aug 14 2007, 08:23 PM
Doc1.doc ( 24.5k )
Number of downloads: 563
Above is the wheel in painted steel, except it is 4.5"er.
The "wheels" on the yellow car are closer. Except those look like VW bug trim rings. The chromes I believe to be "factory" have oval holes exactly like the standard steel wheels.
My memory of the first year is that there were no aftermarket wheels for 914's and no option from Porsche except the chromes. The first aftermarket wheels available (by '71 for sure) were the Rivieras which were made for the VW and had a different offset than stock 914 wheels.
Posted by: orthobiz Aug 14 2007, 10:16 PM
Above is the wheel in painted steel, except it is 4.5"er.
Here's the wheel pic:
Paul
Posted by: Jasfsmith Aug 15 2007, 08:59 AM
The chrome early style wheels were 5 1/2". I've been keeping my eyes out for a decent set for the 914-4, however have not come across any that fit the bill.
James,
Is this what you are looking for? (These were on our esteemed moderators' 914 at the Reston (Va.) Parade in 1979.
Paul
No, the ones I have been looking for at identical to the early painted steel wheels in appearance, but chomed. They were available in 5 1/2" rim width only. I don't believe that there were any available wheel options in '70. '71 was the first year for the chomes.
Posted by: Ferg Aug 15 2007, 09:18 AM
Gint's car the zambeziteen had the 5.5 chromies
My old Dijon bomb had the 5.5 painted steelies
Posted by: Porsche Rescue Aug 15 2007, 09:39 AM
James, my '70 pictured above came from the showroom with the 5.5 chromes, only optional wheel available at the time.
Ferg's green car shows them well.
Posted by: Jasfsmith Aug 15 2007, 03:36 PM
James, my '70 pictured above came from the showroom with the 5.5 chromes, only optional wheel available at the time.
Ferg's green car shows them well.
I stand corrected.
Perhaps a list of known factory and aftermarket wheel options (from when to when they were offered), and known factory OEM tire and "period" available tires might be worthwhile.
Posted by: Pat Garvey Aug 15 2007, 08:07 PM
Above is the wheel in painted steel, except it is 4.5"er.
Here's the wheel pic:
Paul
Centers - within the hubcap mounts, should be "dusted" dark gray, same as the backside.
Pat
Posted by: 1970 Neun vierzehn Aug 23 2007, 01:41 PM
Incontrovertible proof of factory spec'd tires. This, on a 70/4, on the engine compartment firewall, on the drivers' side.
And NO, I'm not gonna put those "rim protecters" back on the car.
Attached image(s)
Posted by: 1970 Neun vierzehn Aug 23 2007, 01:45 PM
[/quote]
Here's the wheel pic:
Paul
[/quote]
Centers - within the hubcap mounts, should be "dusted" dark gray, same as the backside.
Pat
[/quote]
You don't see that "dusted" finish reproduced often on refinished wheels.
Paul
Posted by: anderssj Aug 25 2007, 09:49 PM
Like this?
Attached image(s)
Posted by: Pat Garvey Aug 26 2007, 09:48 AM
Like this?
Yep.........course, if it's covered by the hubcap who's to know?
Posted by: sendjonathanmail Sep 9 2007, 02:57 PM
spare 
very clean, no scuffs, etc....looks like it wasnt used much....
Posted by: davep Sep 23 2007, 09:37 AM
I'm finally reading this thread.
One combo you missed was the 165SR15 on 5.5" rims.
In 1973 and 1974 and perhaps 1975 the 1.7 or 1.8 engine cars came with the 165SR15 specification. The 2.0 engine cars came with the 165HR15 specification. One easy way for me to tell the original engine in some of them. I'll try to put together a part number list of rims and descriptions.
We have the 4.5" & 5.5" early steel painted, 5.5" early steel chrome, late styled 5.5" painted, Pedrini, Fuchs and Mahle alloys, Pedrini and Fuchs for the non hub-centric as varieties, and two LE varieties of the Mahles for the 914/4. I'm not sure how many of the early steel wheels were tube type rims; the 'J' designation is for tubeless varieties. I believe everything from at least 1973 MY on had tubeless rims as standard.
Posted by: Pat Garvey Sep 23 2007, 10:02 AM
I'm finally reading this thread.
One combo you missed was the 165SR15 on 5.5" rims.
In 1973 and 1974 and perhaps 1975 the 1.7 or 1.8 engine cars came with the 165SR15 specification. The 2.0 engine cars came with the 165HR15 specification. One easy way for me to tell the original engine in some of them. I'll try to put together a part number list of rims and descriptions.
We have the 4.5" & 5.5" early steel painted, 5.5" early steel chrome, late styled 5.5" painted, Pedrini, Fuchs and Mahle alloys, Pedrini and Fuchs for the non hub-centric as varieties, and two LE varieties of the Mahles for the 914/4. I'm not sure how many of the early steel wheels were tube type rims; the 'J' designation is for tubeless varieties. I believe everything from at least 1973 MY on had tubeless rims as standard.
Dave,
Is the rim size & style (J designation) stamped anywhere on the wheel (talking steelies here)? My late 72 came originally with tubes & Continentals. The was the only set of tube-type tires I've ever had on the car. All the rest have been tubeless. The current set (28 years old) is Pirelli CN36, and they don't lose more than 1-3 pounds of air per year. Course I am dumping these before any rugged use is put on the car.
Pat
Posted by: Porsche Rescue Sep 23 2007, 10:26 AM
Will be stamped "5 1/2 J 15" on the outside near the bolt holes. Also will have "ET 40" which is the offset.
Posted by: davep Sep 23 2007, 12:47 PM
Jim has it correct. The 'J' for tubeless will always be found in the size designation. If it is not there, then it indicates a tube type version. You can tell this with the tire off the rim when you can look for the safety ribs. The safety ribs are a wide (.5" or so) raised ( about a sixteenth") portion just inside of where the tire bead sits. It is there to prevent the tire beads from moving away from the edge of the rim and thus unseating themselves. Early 5 bolt Fuchs, Gasburner Mahles, and many of the early steel rims were tube type. You can run them tubeless, but there is some risk in doing so; most of the risk comes when cornering briskly and the twisting forces on the bead of the tire can cause it to walk about. If it becomes unseated you could have a dramatic deflation of the tire and consequent loss of control. So you would be most at risk on a track or during autocross and less so on the street. If you should cause an accident due to this scenario, you would likely be liable for damages.
Posted by: Pat Garvey Sep 23 2007, 07:59 PM
Jim has it correct. The 'J' for tubeless will always be found in the size designation. If it is not there, then it indicates a tube type version. You can tell this with the tire off the rim when you can look for the safety ribs. The safety ribs are a wide (.5" or so) raised ( about a sixteenth") portion just inside of where the tire bead sits. It is there to prevent the tire beads from moving away from the edge of the rim and thus unseating themselves. Early 5 bolt Fuchs, Gasburner Mahles, and many of the early steel rims were tube type. You can run them tubeless, but there is some risk in doing so; most of the risk comes when cornering briskly and the twisting forces on the bead of the tire can cause it to walk about. If it becomes unseated you could have a dramatic deflation of the tire and consequent loss of control. So you would be most at risk on a track or during autocross and less so on the street. If you should cause an accident due to this scenario, you would likely be liable for damages.
Jeez, I knew that! Just forgot it.
As soon as I posted (instead of before) I checked. Yeppir it's there - J designation.
Posted by: 914pwer Dec 5 2007, 05:43 PM
i had four of these on my 914-4 -71
it is remotec 15*5,5
Attached image(s)
Posted by: slackin' at work Jan 8 2008, 08:47 AM
could someone tell me the original finish for a Pedrini rim? 
were they painted? if so, anyone know the color (don't say silver).
Posted by: 1970 Neun vierzehn Jan 8 2008, 11:28 AM
"slackin",
The general consensus is that the Pedrinis were finished an anodized s****r.
Those owners that refinished the wheels themselves seem to recommend WURTH s****r.
Please note, I didn't say "s****r"
Paul
Posted by: slackin' at work Jan 8 2008, 01:12 PM
"slackin",
The general consensus is that the Pedrinis were finished an anodized s****r.
Those owners that refinished the wheels themselves seem to recommend WURTH s****r.
Please note, I didn't say "s****r"
Paul
my silver comment was to deter the smart-a$$es... but looks like I only egged them on.
anyway, thanks paul for the info. there appears to be several silvers by wurth.
would it be an enamel or laquer? "Wheel paint" or just "metalic silver"?
since painting isn't original, would powdercoating be out of the question?
neither is original and the PC would be more durable. thoughts?
-chris
Posted by: 1970 Neun vierzehn Jan 8 2008, 03:18 PM
Chris,
I think you'd get some first-hand accounts and/or better response if you would post your question(s) in the main Originality and History portion of this Forum. I think most members look at these specific threads infrequently, and when they do, I believe for visual reference.
The Wurth paint that I've seen referenced before was laquer.
Paul
Posted by: Pat Garvey Jan 8 2008, 04:53 PM
Anodized
Posted by: davep Jan 9 2008, 03:55 PM
You don't want to powder-coat rims, that just makes things worse.
Posted by: Pat Garvey Jan 9 2008, 07:29 PM
"slackin",
The general consensus is that the Pedrinis were finished an anodized s****r.
Those owners that refinished the wheels themselves seem to recommend WURTH s****r.
Please note, I didn't say "s****r"
Paul
my silver comment was to deter the smart-a$$es... but looks like I only egged them on.
anyway, thanks paul for the info. there appears to be several silvers by wurth.
would it be an enamel or laquer? "Wheel paint" or just "metalic silver"?
since painting isn't original, would powdercoating be out of the question?
neither is original and the PC would be more durable. thoughts?
-chris
Chris,
Please, please have them cleaned up & re-anodized. Preserve them. Restore them. They'll be worth so much more than the cost involved.
And, they weren't anodized silver (there, I said it). Anodizing protects & covers the original "silver" metal finish. Easy to keep clean - just never use abrasives. Should last you until you're as old as I am, maybe more.
Pat
Posted by: black73 Jan 12 2008, 01:14 PM
Has anyone mentioned steel wheels painted body color?
Posted by: Pat Garvey Jan 12 2008, 08:22 PM
Has anyone mentioned steel wheels painted body color?
No.
Probably because we (I should say "I") am/are not aware of any such comination for US cars.
All steel wheels should be painted satin silver, with center lug areas painted flat black.
Pat
Posted by: black73 Jan 13 2008, 10:28 AM
Well, I am the second owner of this car and I am 99.9% sure that is how the car was purchased in Bristol, TN, in August of 1973. The original owner was a very good friend of my wife and she is sure they were always orange (Phoenix Red).
That picture was taken in about '83-'84.
Posted by: Pat Garvey Jan 13 2008, 08:52 PM
Any other historians care to step in here?
Pat
Posted by: 1970 Neun vierzehn Jan 13 2008, 10:25 PM
I would venture to say that if that 914 had paint-to-match the bodywork wheels when it was delivered new, the dealer, more than likely, was responsible. When I acquired my '70/4 in 1975, I knew of an Irish Green 914 that had yellow painted steelies. I knew for a fact that the owner had painted them that color (perhaps he really wanted a Lotus ), and back then, I thought it looked pretty neat (that '70s show/Disco era sort of thing). Now if I saw it... 
Paul
Posted by: Ferg Jan 16 2008, 03:06 PM
Well, I am the second owner of this car and I am 99.9% sure that is how the car was purchased in Bristol, TN, in August of 1973. The original owner was a very good friend of my wife and she is sure they were always orange (Phoenix Red).
That picture was taken in about '83-'84.
Is the spare Red???
Ferg
Posted by: SirAndy Jan 16 2008, 04:12 PM
Also will have "ET 40" which is the offset.
btw. just for the record, ET stands for the german word "Einpresstiefe" which losely translates into offset ...
Andy
Posted by: Pat Garvey Jan 16 2008, 08:21 PM
I would venture to say that if that 914 had paint-to-match the bodywork wheels when it was delivered new, the dealer, more than likely, was responsible. When I acquired my '70/4 in 1975, I knew of an Irish Green 914 that had yellow painted steelies. I knew for a fact that the owner had painted them that color (perhaps he really wanted a Lotus
), and back then, I thought it looked pretty neat (that '70s show/Disco era sort of thing). Now if I saw it... Paul
Ewww! That's FUGLY!
Posted by: black73 Jan 18 2008, 04:10 PM
Ferg
I remembered the spare was behind the garage, so I dug it out and sanded a spot to see...
It's possible this was not originally the spare, since it has a Kelly Springfield tire on it, but that would mean the spare is one of the other red wheels.
Posted by: Ferg Jan 30 2008, 05:08 PM
Interesting...
Sand a spot on the back... I would think that a dealer would only paint the front of the rim.
Ferg
Posted by: black73 Jan 31 2008, 04:15 PM
Interesting...
Sand a spot on the back... I would think that a dealer would only paint the front of the rim.
Ferg
No red on the back...
Posted by: Ferg Feb 1 2008, 11:36 AM
Interesting...
Sand a spot on the back... I would think that a dealer would only paint the front of the rim.
Ferg
No red on the back...
Like others, I would think it was dealer done then...
Ferg
Posted by: TROJANMAN Feb 2 2008, 09:44 AM
This is a fascinating conversation........
Posted by: Pat Garvey Feb 10 2008, 07:22 PM
First off, I'll use my "ignorance is bliss" byline here. I know little about 914 Fuchs wheels, other than wishing I could put some on my 72.
But.....I'm noticing more and more late 914's on eBay with Fuchs on all four corners, but a steelie spare.
Did they come this way? Or, was a set of Fuchs supposed to be a set of five?
Pat
Posted by: sendjonathanmail Feb 10 2008, 08:03 PM
My car happens to have a set of 5 2.0 fuchs.
Posted by: TROJANMAN Feb 12 2008, 09:37 PM
First off, I'll use my "ignorance is bliss" byline here. I know little about 914 Fuchs wheels, other than wishing I could put some on my 72.
But.....I'm noticing more and more late 914's on eBay with Fuchs on all four corners, but a steelie spare.
Did they come this way? Or, was a set of Fuchs supposed to be a set of five?
Pat
The dealers would often take the spare Fuchs out of cars to create a set of four, for cars that had steelies. Then they would throw the steelie in as a spare.
Posted by: Pat Garvey Feb 13 2008, 07:55 PM
First off, I'll use my "ignorance is bliss" byline here. I know little about 914 Fuchs wheels, other than wishing I could put some on my 72.
But.....I'm noticing more and more late 914's on eBay with Fuchs on all four corners, but a steelie spare.
Did they come this way? Or, was a set of Fuchs supposed to be a set of five?
Pat
The dealers would often take the spare Fuchs out of cars to create a set of four, for cars that had steelies. Then they would throw the steelie in as a spare.
Sonsabitches!
Think they'd get away with that today?
Pat
Posted by: McMark Jun 29 2008, 03:32 PM
I wonder if the very few cars that came with factory painted bumpers also had painted wheels... 
I'm not ready to write off the painted wheels as dealer 'trickery'.
Posted by: Porsche Rescue Jun 29 2008, 03:34 PM
I don't think so. I remember seeing many painted-bumper cars at the dealer in 1970. They all had silver painted wheels.
Posted by: TheMirror Feb 2 2009, 10:26 PM
Cheers all -
OK, so I'm a front-engined water cooler Porsche guy (968), but I'm having a great time researching the 914 series right now for a big spec database I'm putting together.
Far more wheel options came with these cars than I had originally thought. I wonder if this thread could use a comprehensive list as to exactly what was available in what year?
So far I have -
1970 - 4.5" Painted steel
1971 - 4.5" Painted steel, 5.5" Chrome steel, 5.5" Pedrini
1972 - 4.5" Painted steel, 5.5" Chrome steel, 5.5" Pedrini
1973 - 5.5" Painted steel (new style), 5.5" forged Fuchs, 5.5" Mahle
1974 - 5.5" Painted steel (new style), 5.5" forged Fuchs, 5.5" Mahle
1975 - 5.5" Painted steel (new style), 5.5" forged Fuchs, 5.5" Mahle
1976 - 5.5" Painted steel (new style), 5.5" forged Fuchs, 5.5" Mahle
Not sure exactly how and when the Pedrini's or the Mahles fit into this mix, although this article from Pelican sheds some new light on it:
http://www.pelicanparts.com/techarticles/914_wheel_types/914_wheel_types.htm
Looks like PR below clears up the question of 8 spoke Mahles being available vs. the 10 spoke gas burners which were for 6 cyl. cars only. Article confirms that.
Does that list look right?
Cheers,
-Mirror
Posted by: Porsche Rescue Feb 2 2009, 10:47 PM
You have a lot more work to do. The Pedrini wheel was the first factory alloy, 1971. There were no factory option wheels in '70 (edit: for the four) unless the Pedrini came late that year. I bought a new '70 with chromes but they were aftermarket dealer option and no alloys were available. I am sure the Mahle came sometime after the Pedrini. They were eight spoke, gas burners were 5 lug for 914-6 and 911 only.
Posted by: TheMirror Feb 3 2009, 01:08 AM
You have a lot more work to do. The Pedrini wheel was the first factory alloy, 1971. There were no factory option wheels in '70 unless the Pedrini came late that year. I bought a new '70 with chromes but they were aftermarket dealer option and no alloys were available. I am sure the Mahle came sometime after the Pedrini. They were eight spoke, gas burners were 5 lug for 914-6 and 911 only.
Thanks for that info!
-Mirror
Posted by: Johny Blackstain Feb 3 2009, 09:02 AM
You have a lot more work to do. The Pedrini wheel was the first factory alloy, 1971. There were no factory option wheels in '70 unless the Pedrini came late that year. I bought a new '70 with chromes but they were aftermarket dealer option and no alloys were available. I am sure the Mahle came sometime after the Pedrini. They were eight spoke, gas burners were 5 lug for 914-6 and 911 only.
The six had wheel options in 1970- came w/ steelies or Fuchs & the Mahle 5 lug gas burners were optional. The Mahle is still one of the lightest wheels ever produced, @ 9.2lbs each.
Posted by: Pat Garvey Feb 11 2009, 09:36 PM
It should also be noted that painted 5.5" steelies were a part of the appearance group on the early fours, though, in the case of the VERY EARLY fours, this may or may not have been the case.
Pat
Posted by: tod914 Feb 15 2009, 09:30 PM
Great tire discussion guys. Thanks for sharing your years of experience. I was wondering what to do. Seems like James has me convinced to go with the 165hr 15 Vredestein. Zone 1 comming up in May, hopefully will have all the suspension stuff done by then. My spare is a continenal tt 714 radial, original to the car.
Posted by: Pat Garvey Feb 21 2009, 08:36 PM
Great tire discussion guys. Thanks for sharing your years of experience. I was wondering what to do. Seems like James has me convinced to go with the 165hr 15 Vredestein. Zone 1 comming up in May, hopefully will have all the suspension stuff done by then. My spare is a continenal tt 714 radial, original to the car.
Tod,
Vredesteins were never original to US 914s. You may want to give this some more thought.
Pat
Posted by: Porsche Rescue Feb 21 2009, 09:27 PM
I continue to believe that the best option for a concours car is the 165 Michelin xzx, available from Coker Tire. They are very spendy.
I know others argue that you must have an H rated tire. While H tires may have been OE for some years, and for sure on the six, I know that the S rated xzx was OE in '76 as I once owned one with its original tires.
And Michelin was OE, even in '70. The tire sticker on the '70 I own now calls for 155 SR 15 as it has 4.5" wheels. Vredenstein is period correct and size correct but, as Pat says, was never OE.
Posted by: Jasfsmith Feb 23 2009, 11:33 AM
Though I think a period correct tire size would be best for the CW types (Pat is losing my respect here <grin>), I doubt that the Zone 1 Concour will be that critical in the tire presentation.
Unless I appear as a judge. And I'm not saying I will be ......
Posted by: tod914 Feb 23 2009, 11:41 AM
How do the 2 tires compare in regard to road handeling? Simular I suppose? I won't make a decession for a couple months yet. Have to see if and when the Michi's become available. James, zone 1 isn't that stringent? More like a local PCA event regarding judgeing?
Posted by: Jasfsmith Feb 23 2009, 12:35 PM
How do the 2 tires compare in regard to road handeling? Simular I suppose? I won't make a decession for a couple months yet. Have to see if and when the Michi's become available. James, zone 1 isn't that stringent? More like a local PCA event regarding judgeing?
I 've had both the Michelin ZX and Verdisten on my 914-4, and can honestly say I found no ride or handling difference. On the 914-6 I have the XAS's which are defintely a step up to the ZXZ's. My optimum would the the XWX's which were always a good sticky tire. Pricey as hell and limited wear life.
Before the XAS, I ran a couple of contemporary low profile tires. They looked better (maybe) and handled far better, however I found the ride a bit harsh, and "heavy".
The few Zone 1 events I've attended, I would say the judging to be more knowledgeable than local PCA and other club events. For me, it was a good look at what to expect at the national level (the judges were most helpful and encouraging in that regard).
In straight comparison, the Zone 1 is walk in the park compared to the national level. A lot less pressure. (Look at what it's done to Pat Garvey at the national level. <grin>)
Posted by: Pat Garvey Feb 23 2009, 07:44 PM
How do the 2 tires compare in regard to road handeling? Simular I suppose? I won't make a decession for a couple months yet. Have to see if and when the Michi's become available. James, zone 1 isn't that stringent? More like a local PCA event regarding judgeing?
I 've had both the Michelin ZX and Verdisten on my 914-4, and can honestly say I found no ride or handling difference. On the 914-6 I have the XAS's which are defintely a step up to the ZXZ's. My optimum would the the XWX's which were always a good sticky tire. Pricey as hell and limited wear life.
Before the XAS, I ran a couple of contemporary low profile tires. They looked better (maybe) and handled far better, however I found the ride a bit harsh, and "heavy".
The few Zone 1 events I've attended, I would say the judging to be more knowledgeable than local PCA and other club events. For me, it was a good look at what to expect at the national level (the judges were most helpful and encouraging in that regard).
In straight comparison, the Zone 1 is walk in the park compared to the national level. A lot less pressure. (Look at what it's done to Pat Garvey at the national level. <grin>)
And THIS is where I cross the boundary between total originality...and functionality.
We've had this discussion before. I absolutely WILL NOT put tires of 70's design on my pride and joy. I draw the line here.
I've done it before - lost wins at national level, because of my tire choice. I'll do it again, but have learned how to make up the difference. No. I won't put radical tites on (and I'm open for suggestions), but wish I could get more of the Yoko A008R's I had before. Safe, sticky, don't wear well, but who cares.
Now, I've had my 914 from day one, with (in my opinion) crap tires. It was a daily driver. One wet roads (shuddder!) it was a skate. In the snow, it did 180's regularly. Why? Tires! I first switched from the origional Conti's to XAS. Worse that the Conti's. That's when it was parked in wet or snow. Found Pirelli CN36's! They were/are great, but 28 years old. Great auto-x tire, too.
Then I found Yoko's! Such sweat tires! They're on my 73 T now. But, they're old too.
So...what do I put on the 914? You can bet that I won't spend 1800 bucks for inferior tires from Coker (with installation). I may be a CW, but when it comes to safety & performance I draw the line.
Sorry to those that haven't come to this conclusion. Drive a 914 in the wet with XAS's. You'll see.
Pat
Posted by: Jasfsmith Feb 24 2009, 08:42 AM
We've had this discussion before. I absolutely WILL NOT put tires of 70's design on my pride and joy. I draw the line here.
I've done it before - lost wins at national level, because of my tire choice. I'll do it again, but have learned how to make up the difference. No. I won't put radical tites on (and I'm open for suggestions), but wish I could get more of the Yoko A008R's I had before. Safe, sticky, don't wear well, but who cares.
Now, I've had my 914 from day one, with (in my opinion) crap tires. It was a daily driver. One wet roads (shuddder!) it was a skate. In the snow, it did 180's regularly. Why? Tires! I first switched from the origional Conti's to XAS. Worse that the Conti's. That's when it was parked in wet or snow. Found Pirelli CN36's! They were/are great, but 28 years old. Great auto-x tire, too.
Then I found Yoko's! Such sweat tires! They're on my 73 T now. But, they're old too.
So...what do I put on the 914? You can bet that I won't spend 1800 bucks for inferior tires from Coker (with installation). I may be a CW, but when it comes to safety & performance I draw the line.
Sorry to those that haven't come to this conclusion. Drive a 914 in the wet with XAS's. You'll see.
Pat
As I understand it, the current offering of Coker tires employ current methods and materials. The size and exterior design is the only part that conforms to the original tire manufacturer. Coker licenses the original molds from the original manufacturer.
I fully agree that contempprary tire deisign puts more rubber on the road, and in so doing has necessitated an advancement in tread pattern to shed water, however as to construction, I disagree. All tires produced today have to meet DOT requirements of today.
In Maine (and I suspect the majority of states), it is an inspection requirement that the car run with tire size (diameter profile, rating) as recommended by the vehicle's manufacturer. Inspection stations here have been (inceasingly so) adhering to the letter of the law. Not to say that there are no ways around it.
As to wet handling, good judgement in driving prevails. I can out drive my windshield wipers long before the tire grip is affected. May I need to istall new wiper blades.
Hey, aren't you the guy whose car never sees rain? <GRIN>
(Pat, you didn't think I was going to let you off that easy did you?)
Posted by: Porsche Rescue Feb 24 2009, 09:39 AM
James, what is your opinion of my view that the Coker S rated XZX is the closest available choice for a concour 914. Seeking agreement but can tolerate reasoned dissent.
Posted by: Jasfsmith Feb 24 2009, 10:28 AM
James, what is your opinion of my view that the Coker S rated XZX is the closest available choice for a concour 914. Seeking agreement but can tolerate reasoned dissent.
914-4 or 914-6, what year (early '70 914-4's came with 4.5 rims and the ZX, not XZX would be correct), what does your manual or sticker on the fender near the VIN number say?
I checked my notes and could not find a ZX 165x15SR offering, but did find a XZX 165x15SR, which likely would be correct for the 5.5x15 rim. I believe the HR rating was offered on the 914-6 only.
Posted by: Porsche Rescue Feb 24 2009, 11:40 AM
I think we are close to saying the same thing. Even Coker only stocks Vredestein in 155 S rated. They have XAS H rated but that would be overkill for a four with 4.5" wheels I think.
My point is that of all the imperfect choices, given that the ZX is NLA, for the purist, the 165SRx15 XZX is the closest to OE available for the 914-4.
BTW, I admired your car and shook your hand at the Portland Parade. Would not expect you to remember me, but hard to forget a beautiful tangerine six driven all the way from Maine!
Posted by: Scott Schroeder Feb 24 2009, 11:45 AM
I am cofused about something here. You are talking concour correct - going for the perfect car - something you can obviously spend years and years to acheive. Doesn't it make sense to simply buy a set of vintage tires (they are out there) throw a tube in them and mount them on your original wheels for events? Then, simply mount the updated/modern tries on another set of wheels?
We are doing this on the Jag - it is running period correct bias ply tires with wide whites on the original wire wheels for any and all shows. However, it's normal set up will be a new set of chrome wires with a nice set of radials - most likely sourced from our local Discount Tire.
You folks are talking parade level/true concour events correct? Not just the local show and shine "concour" put on by your local PCA as a charity event that most participate in.
I dont understand why after all of that prep/restoration, that you would then cut corners.
Posted by: Porsche Rescue Feb 24 2009, 11:52 AM
I agree with you Scott. That would be the best solution. I did not realize that correct vintage OE tires could be found, especially a full matching set. By the way, I am only in this discussion out of interest in the topic. I do not have or plan to have a show quality 914 at any level.
Posted by: tod914 Feb 24 2009, 01:52 PM
My car had the original tires on it just prior to purchase. The po changed them and had the shop hold them for me to pick up. They some how got thrown away by the shop owner. Riggggght. I brought this up on the local pca board. The general concencious was 35 year old tires pose a potential saftey issue and would be best to replace anyway. Still undecided on what route to go, but Scott you idea sounds perfect. 1 set for shows and the other for driving.
James, the gas tank label on mine call for HR rated.
Posted by: Pat Garvey Feb 24 2009, 08:06 PM
We've had this discussion before. I absolutely WILL NOT put tires of 70's design on my pride and joy. I draw the line here.
I've done it before - lost wins at national level, because of my tire choice. I'll do it again, but have learned how to make up the difference. No. I won't put radical tites on (and I'm open for suggestions), but wish I could get more of the Yoko A008R's I had before. Safe, sticky, don't wear well, but who cares.
Now, I've had my 914 from day one, with (in my opinion) crap tires. It was a daily driver. One wet roads (shuddder!) it was a skate. In the snow, it did 180's regularly. Why? Tires! I first switched from the origional Conti's to XAS. Worse that the Conti's. That's when it was parked in wet or snow. Found Pirelli CN36's! They were/are great, but 28 years old. Great auto-x tire, too.
Then I found Yoko's! Such sweat tires! They're on my 73 T now. But, they're old too.
So...what do I put on the 914? You can bet that I won't spend 1800 bucks for inferior tires from Coker (with installation). I may be a CW, but when it comes to safety & performance I draw the line.
Sorry to those that haven't come to this conclusion. Drive a 914 in the wet with XAS's. You'll see.
Pat
As I understand it, the current offering of Coker tires employ current methods and materials. The size and exterior design is the only part that conforms to the original tire manufacturer. Coker licenses the original molds from the original manufacturer.
I fully agree that contempprary tire deisign puts more rubber on the road, and in so doing has necessitated an advancement in tread pattern to shed water, however as to construction, I disagree. All tires produced today have to meet DOT requirements of today.
In Maine (and I suspect the majority of states), it is an inspection requirement that the car run with tire size (diameter profile, rating) as recommended by the vehicle's manufacturer. Inspection stations here have been (inceasingly so) adhering to the letter of the law. Not to say that there are no ways around it.
As to wet handling, good judgement in driving prevails. I can out drive my windshield wipers long before the tire grip is affected. May I need to istall new wiper blades.
Hey, aren't you the guy whose car never sees rain? <GRIN>
(Pat, you didn't think I was going to let you off that easy did you?)
Yep, my 914 hasn'r seen water, or any form of it, since 1978.
That will end in 3 years. No more concours, no more namby-pamby care.
When I hit 65, we're touring the perimter of the USA in the 914, with some dips into the southern Rockies. The 914 will be beaten to a pulp. I expect the tour to take 6 months, maybe longer. The car WILL be in rain, so I need tires to support the effort.
It will wear no bra, it will be taken to task. I hope we enjoy the trip, but will have a list of "helpers" along the way in case of problems. I expect the trip to encompass at leat 10K miles.
After that trip, it will be repainted & rebuilt. And sold.
This trip will be my last venture into 914's. I'll be too old to really make an effort after that.
Yes, my 914 will get wet. Yes, it will make the trip with contemporary tires. Yes, it get athorough going over after the trip. Yes, it will be sold. Yes, I will retire from the 914 World.
But that's 3 years away. So, I can remain my salty self until then.
Pat
Posted by: slackin' at work Feb 24 2009, 09:03 PM
...And sold.
DIBS!
no need to repaint or rebuild... I'll take it as-is.
seriously.
Posted by: Jasfsmith Feb 25 2009, 08:34 AM
My point is that of all the imperfect choices, given that the ZX is NLA, for the purist, the 165SRx15 XZX is the closest to OE available for the 914-4.
BTW, I admired your car and shook your hand at the Portland Parade. Would not expect you to remember me, but hard to forget a beautiful tangerine six driven all the way from Maine!
I'd agree with you that the 165SR XZX would be the correct choice for 5.5 inch rims. I thought Coker had a165SR Vredestein available?
My approach for CW, any tire of period correct manufacture (whether on the car when delivered or not) that meets the size recomended by Porsche for that model year, would be acceptable. Tires after all, are a wear item and expected to be replaced.
The Portland Parade was great (aside from my near death experience the evening of the final banquet). Wife and I would like to make a return trip to see the things we missed.
Posted by: Jeff Bowlsby Feb 25 2009, 02:53 PM
When I hit 65...
This trip will be my last venture into 914's. I'll be too old to really make an effort after that. Yes, I will retire from the 914 World.
But that's 3 years away.
Pat
Yo Pat, Life does not end at 65 bro...no reason to give something up that you have enjoyed all your life just because you make a certain age...
At 65 grow a pony tail, start wearing flip flops and hawaiian shirts - year round...take up surfing or...Have you seen the recent movie 'bucket list'? You are our role model and inspiration! We look to you for...the exemplary 914 lifestyle..
Posted by: carreraguy Feb 25 2009, 04:43 PM
Seeing this discussion re: Coker tires reminds me that I still have five stock 4.5 inch steel wheels from my '76 (sold with Yoko ES100s) which were refinished by Harvey Weidman with period correct like-new (less than 50 miles) 165/85 Michelin XZX Coker tires. I offered them up on the World for sale section a few years ago but no one was interested. Anyone interested, PM me.
Later,
Posted by: Jasfsmith Feb 26 2009, 09:15 AM
You folks are talking parade level/true concour events correct? Not just the local show and shine "concour" put on by your local PCA as a charity event that most participate in.
I dont understand why after all of that prep/restoration, that you would then cut corners.
I am talking parade level/true concours events. Considering only optional tires when the original OEM is not available. I too have a second set of contemporary ties mounted to 14" Fuchs for regular use. With health issues over the past three years, I've not had the energy or strength to swap them over.
Posted by: Porsche Rescue Feb 26 2009, 09:20 AM
James, that begs the question, "What tires did you drive to Portland with?" If the contemporary, how pray tell did you transport wife, luggage and a set of tires?
Posted by: Jasfsmith Feb 26 2009, 09:54 AM
James, that begs the question, "What tires did you drive to Portland with?" If the contemporary, how pray tell did you transport wife, luggage and a set of tires?
With thoughts of taking in the autox, I mounted a set of new 195/55's on the Mahle's. Before we left for the Parade. Got dinged in the Concours and wound up not running the autox afterall. Expensive way to go, having unmounted and remounted tires.
I put 165HR XAS's on the Mahle's for the San Diego Parade.
Now I have the correct XAS's on the show Mahle's, a set of 195/55's on the 14" Fuchs, a set of 195/55's ready to mount on a second set of Mahle's I picked up.
With the limited number of miles I drive, they will all likely rot long before I wear them out.
I'd interested in hearing anyone's opinion on how best to store tires of the vehicle.
Posted by: Jasfsmith Feb 26 2009, 09:58 AM
Seeing this discussion re: Coker tires reminds me that I still have five stock 4.5 inch steel wheels from my '76 (sold with Yoko ES100s) which were refinished by Harvey Weidman with period correct like-new (less than 50 miles) 165/85 Michelin XZX Coker tires. I offered them up on the World for sale section a few years ago but no one was interested. Anyone interested, PM me.
Later,
Sounds to me like Jim Chambers will be contacting you soon for the tires.
Posted by: Pat Garvey Feb 27 2009, 07:31 PM
...And sold.
DIBS!
no need to repaint or rebuild... I'll take it as-is.
seriously.
May want to wait until you see the damage. It will be UGLY. The trip will be no holds barred. Gravel roads? Yep, even if not neceassry. Chips, chunks & other nasty things will be taken as they arrive.
Tslk to me in 3 1/2 years! Then, we'll see how eager you are.
Pat
Posted by: Pat Garvey Feb 27 2009, 07:36 PM
When I hit 65...
This trip will be my last venture into 914's. I'll be too old to really make an effort after that. Yes, I will retire from the 914 World.
But that's 3 years away.
Pat
Yo Pat, Life does not end at 65 bro...no reason to give something up that you have enjoyed all your life just because you make a certain age...
At 65 grow a pony tail, start wearing flip flops and hawaiian shirts - year round...take up surfing or...Have you seen the recent movie 'bucket list'? You are our role model and inspiration! We look to you for...the exemplary 914 lifestyle..
Jeff, I'd like to be a male prostitute, but my "six pack" is now a "flab pack". I'd like to do a lot of things, and some of them I'm giving serious thought to. But I think I'm close to running my 914 course! I mean, 37 years is a long time to give to ONE car. Not that I'm compaining, just....maybe it's time to find a new venue.
Maybe.
Posted by: tod914 Feb 27 2009, 08:14 PM
Yugo's haven't fully reached their due status Pat. Maybe be a trend setter and get one of those.
Posted by: Pat Garvey Feb 28 2009, 07:20 PM
Yugo's haven't fully reached their due status Pat. Maybe be a trend setter and get one of those.
Tod,
Thanks, but Yugo get one first!
Pat
Posted by: Tom_T Apr 3 2009, 04:38 PM
EDITED - DELETE
Posted by: Pat Garvey Apr 3 2009, 05:25 PM
Yugo's haven't fully reached their due status Pat. Maybe be a trend setter and get one of those.
Tod,
Thanks, but Yugo get one first!
Pat
Pat ....how about some questions about what makes the wheels stop??
...or is there a specific post on brake systems somewhere here?
I'm trying to collect the parts necessary to get my `73 2L back on the road after being dry stored in my SoCal garage since 5/85 (+/- 24 years!) - both Mech & Body, and my preference is to stay OEM/OES or close to stock.
So I want to post questions on various systems, components & parts here - IF this is the appropriate place, or should I look to other areas on this bbs???
Please let me know if not &/or where I might get more & better responses to a particular topic.
That said, I'm looking at brake stuff this week. - for STREET driving use, without any...
A few Brake System Questions, so I can take advantage of Performance Products 15% off sale this week:
1.) First & Foremost - are Performance Products prices typically good competitive pricing??
....& are their weekly specials & discounts are worth jumping at?
...or can I do better just shopping around?
Dr. 914 - George - feel free to weigh in on your Auto Atlanta stock!
2.) Brake Pads - OEM or ???? by whom? - STREET use
> which for improved braking?
> which for best life?
> which for least "squeal"?
> which don't have asbestos? (a no-no in CA & PBR has it!)
> ratings for: ATE, Jurid, Textar, Pagid, Mintex, Hawk, PBR, others?
3.) Stainless vs OEM Rubber Brake Lines?
> worth the extra price?
> longer life? ...if so, how much longer lasting?
> what is "shelf life" for each in terms of rubber/teflon/silicone?
...I hope to get them installed in `09, but it might be next year, what with all of the other stuff to be done!
> whose are best? ...Weltmeister? ...others?
4.) Master Cylinders - 914-4's 17mm -or- 914-6's 19mm?? (OEM only)
> 19mm are straight bolt-in substitute - correct?
> any steel lines, connectors or anything else need to be changed with 19mm?
> how much improvement 17 > 19mm? ....& for $45 less @ 19mm!
> any issues, concerns & problems in using 19mm?
> what is "shelf life" in terms of their rubber/teflon/silicone "innards"?
...I hope to get them in 2009/2010, but don't want them deteriorating on my shelf!
> any external rubber lines/parts to also replace on MC's? ...any available in SS?
> safety issues & viability of rebuilding current MC which has sat 24 yrs.?
...for safety reasons - I prefer it OEM/OES new or reman. unit (in case of internal rust/pitting/etc.)
5.) Brake Fluids --
> Porsche OEM vs. which others? - for STREET use
> How much do I need for complete change-over & bleeding? - # of oz. or ml & # of cans/bottles?
> what is "shelf life" if left un-opened until rebuild? - +/- 09/2010?
6.) Disk Calipers -- (they're not on sale now for 914s, but for future Ref.)
> new vs remanufactured vs "rebuilt"
> are OEM &/or OES now NLA? ...or if still available - where?? Front? & Rear?
> best mfgr source(s) for OEM Re-mans?
> what & where are the retail sources for above alts?
> what is "shelf life" in terms of their rubber/teflon/silicone "innards"?
...I hope to get them in 2009/2010, but don't want them deteriorating on my shelf!
> safety issues & viability of rebuilding current Calipers which have sat 24 yrs.?
...for safety reasons - I prefer it OEM/OES new or reman. unit (in case of internal rust/pitting/etc.)
> best caliper rebuild kits & mfgrs? ...& is the shelf life of the rubber parts 2009-2010 or more?
7.) 914 Proportioning Valves -- (they're not on sale now for 914s, but for future Ref.)
> are OEM &/or OES still available? ...&/or OEM/OES Remans?
> any better alternative p.valves to elim. "spongy pedal"?
> how are the adjustable ones (like JWest)?? ...& how ahrd to adjust to get right for STREET use??
...or are they more of a pain in the A than they're worth????
> what & where are the sources for above alts?
> what is "shelf life" in terms of their rubber/teflon/silicone "innards"?
> I'm not interested in replacing it with a "Tee", cuz it serves the function to prevent real lock-up & resulting spin-out or swapping back-to-front when you have to brake hard!!
Any other Brake System Tips?
Note that I'll hold off on buying anything without a "safe" shelf life thru 2010, until the actual time I'll be doing the brake system - sale or not! ... just to avoid those
moments! I've also got the post on researching my 914 where you've replied before - & where I also posted this (but the replies are slow in coming), so I'll try it here too. My other post is at:
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=93838&st=0
Thanx in advance guys & gals!
Tom
///////
Tom,
First, welcome to the mayhem!
Second, you ask a LOT of questions! We like that, though it will take some time to muddle through them. This thread is as good as any other, since it's related.
So.... first I'll wiegh in on something you haven't posed - calipers!
Your 914, since it's been sitting for so long, is most probably going to need the calipers rebuilt before anything else. Unless you are a major wrench, I'd get in contact with Eric Shea for rebuilds. His are the best for funtionality & presence.
Pat
Posted by: Tom_T Apr 3 2009, 07:03 PM
EDITED - DELETE
Posted by: Pat Garvey Apr 3 2009, 07:29 PM
[quote name='Tom_T' date='Apr 3 2009, 07:03 PM' post='1153754']
[quote name='Pat Garvey' date='Apr 3 2009, 04:25 PM' post='1153730']
[quote name='Tom_T' post='1153701' date='Apr 3 2009, 04:38 PM']
[quote name='Pat Garvey' post='1139644' date='Feb 28 2009, 06:20 PM']
[quote name='tod914' post='1139265' date='Feb 27 2009, 09:14 PM']
6.) Disk Calipers -- (they're not on sale now for 914s, but for future Ref.)
> new vs remanufactured vs "rebuilt"
> are OEM &/or OES now NLA? ...or if still available - where?? Front? & Rear?
> best mfgr source(s) for OEM Re-mans?
> what & where are the retail sources for above alts?
> what is "shelf life" in terms of their rubber/teflon/silicone "innards"?
...I hope to get them in 2009/2010, but don't want them deteriorating on my shelf!
> safety issues & viability of rebuilding current Calipers which have sat 24 yrs.?
...for safety reasons - I prefer it OEM/OES new or reman. unit (in case of internal rust/pitting/etc.)
> best caliper rebuild kits & mfgrs? ...& is the shelf life of the rubber parts 2009-2010 or more?
Thanx in advance guys & gals!
Tom
///////
[/quote]
Tom,
First, welcome to the mayhem!
Second, you ask a LOT of questions! We like that, though it will take some time to muddle through them. This thread is as good as any other, since it's related.
So.... first I'll wiegh in on something you haven't posed - calipers!
Your 914, since it's been sitting for so long, is most probably going to need the calipers rebuilt before anything else. Unless you are a major wrench, I'd get in contact with Eric Shea for rebuilds. His are the best for funtionality & presence.
Pat
[/quote]
Thanx for the welcome, but...
Yeah I did list calipers, see the clipped down quote above #6.
I just located some rebuilt/reman. L&R front calipers at Perf. Products (supposed to be OEM rebuilds) - if theirs are any good? - ...your opinion??
They had no rear caliper remans. though!
I got the rear rebuild kits just in case, but they're useless if innards are frozen/rusted/pitted! I also got the 19mm MC, 930 tie-rods, balls & bushings, CV boots & other stuff to tie-up their 15% discount (ends 4/4), & will return anything that I don't want. Aslo got 15% off the rear bumper rubber top new, since I bought so much stuff. Would've gotten the front rubber top & "tits" too - if they weren't NLA & other rubber parts if we hadn't run out of time
....geez - that was a "spensive" order!!!!
Where is your guy located? ...I'm in Orange CA (SoCal) ...do you have his contact info?
I'm assuming that he's in the Philly area, since you're near there?
Does he have rear calipers? ...& do I need my old ones for a "core"? ...or do you send him your own calipers to him to rebuild them?
Any other good caliper rebuilders or sources you know of closer to me on the west coast?
Keep in mind that this 914 has it's front & rear ends pushed in - so it's never going to be a "concours" car, but I liked the way it drove before & would like to keep it "true to form" without filing bankruptcy!
Thanx!
Tom
PS - Having been born back there at the other oft forgotten end of the state (PA), my condolences on your Eagles! 
...of course my Steelers 
///////
[/quote]
Tom, Sorry, missed it.
You should contact Eric at PMB Performance, http://www.pmbperformance.com.
Pat
Eric is based in Sandy, Utah - that's close enough for the best.
Eagles crap out very year - I'm used to it!
Posted by: Pat Garvey Apr 3 2009, 07:49 PM
Yugo's haven't fully reached their due status Pat. Maybe be a trend setter and get one of those.
Tod,
Thanks, but Yugo get one first!
Pat
Pat ....how about some questions about what makes the wheels stop??
...or is there a specific post on brake systems somewhere here?
I'm trying to collect the parts necessary to get my `73 2L back on the road after being dry stored in my SoCal garage since 5/85 (+/- 24 years!) - both Mech & Body, and my preference is to stay OEM/OES or close to stock.
So I want to post questions on various systems, components & parts here - IF this is the appropriate place, or should I look to other areas on this bbs???
Please let me know if not &/or where I might get more & better responses to a particular topic.
That said, I'm looking at brake stuff this week. - for STREET driving use, without any...
A few Brake System Questions, so I can take advantage of Performance Products 15% off sale this week:
1.) First & Foremost - are Performance Products prices typically good competitive pricing??
....& are their weekly specials & discounts are worth jumping at?
...or can I do better just shopping around?
Dr. 914 - George - feel free to weigh in on your Auto Atlanta stock!
2.) Brake Pads - OEM or ???? by whom? - STREET use
> which for improved braking?
> which for best life?
> which for least "squeal"?
> which don't have asbestos? (a no-no in CA & PBR has it!)
> ratings for: ATE, Jurid, Textar, Pagid, Mintex, Hawk, PBR, others?
3.) Stainless vs OEM Rubber Brake Lines?
> worth the extra price?
> longer life? ...if so, how much longer lasting?
> what is "shelf life" for each in terms of rubber/teflon/silicone?
...I hope to get them installed in `09, but it might be next year, what with all of the other stuff to be done!
> whose are best? ...Weltmeister? ...others?
4.) Master Cylinders - 914-4's 17mm -or- 914-6's 19mm?? (OEM only)
> 19mm are straight bolt-in substitute - correct?
> any steel lines, connectors or anything else need to be changed with 19mm?
> how much improvement 17 > 19mm? ....& for $45 less @ 19mm!
> any issues, concerns & problems in using 19mm?
> what is "shelf life" in terms of their rubber/teflon/silicone "innards"?
...I hope to get them in 2009/2010, but don't want them deteriorating on my shelf!
> any external rubber lines/parts to also replace on MC's? ...any available in SS?
> safety issues & viability of rebuilding current MC which has sat 24 yrs.?
...for safety reasons - I prefer it OEM/OES new or reman. unit (in case of internal rust/pitting/etc.)
5.) Brake Fluids --
> Porsche OEM vs. which others? - for STREET use
> How much do I need for complete change-over & bleeding? - # of oz. or ml & # of cans/bottles?
> what is "shelf life" if left un-opened until rebuild? - +/- 09/2010?
6.) Disk Calipers -- (they're not on sale now for 914s, but for future Ref.)
> new vs remanufactured vs "rebuilt"
> are OEM &/or OES now NLA? ...or if still available - where?? Front? & Rear?
> best mfgr source(s) for OEM Re-mans?
> what & where are the retail sources for above alts?
> what is "shelf life" in terms of their rubber/teflon/silicone "innards"?
...I hope to get them in 2009/2010, but don't want them deteriorating on my shelf!
> safety issues & viability of rebuilding current Calipers which have sat 24 yrs.?
...for safety reasons - I prefer it OEM/OES new or reman. unit (in case of internal rust/pitting/etc.)
> best caliper rebuild kits & mfgrs? ...& is the shelf life of the rubber parts 2009-2010 or more?
7.) 914 Proportioning Valves -- (they're not on sale now for 914s, but for future Ref.)
> are OEM &/or OES still available? ...&/or OEM/OES Remans?
> any better alternative p.valves to elim. "spongy pedal"?
> how are the adjustable ones (like JWest)?? ...& how ahrd to adjust to get right for STREET use??
...or are they more of a pain in the A than they're worth????
> what & where are the sources for above alts?
> what is "shelf life" in terms of their rubber/teflon/silicone "innards"?
> I'm not interested in replacing it with a "Tee", cuz it serves the function to prevent real lock-up & resulting spin-out or swapping back-to-front when you have to brake hard!!
Any other Brake System Tips?
Note that I'll hold off on buying anything without a "safe" shelf life thru 2010, until the actual time I'll be doing the brake system - sale or not! ... just to avoid those
moments! I've also got the post on researching my 914 where you've replied before - & where I also posted this (but the replies are slow in coming), so I'll try it here too. My other post is at:
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=93838&st=0
Thanx in advance guys & gals!
Tom
///////
Now, with the caliper thing aside, I can/will only impart on things I have some/slight knowledge of, by the numbers:
2.) I still use asbestos pads. Stocked up on the in the late 70's because they make no mess & stop the car. Figure I'm the only one left using them, so I'm not going to kill too many people. They work great!
3.) Stick with rubber. Work fine - last years-pedal prssure better.
4.) Go with 19mm. Learned this by mistake, but it works perfectly for a street 914. Way over discussed.
5.) You can't overuse brake fluid for the street, if you change it every 2 years. Use DOT 3 or 4 for street, but any fluid will absorb enough moisture in 2 years to need replacement.
7.) In 37 years of owning the same 914, I've never experienced a problem here, even during years of hard auto-x usage. Leave it alone.
My opinons on the above topics only - YMMV. Just trying to help.
Pat
Posted by: Tom_T Apr 3 2009, 08:32 PM
EDITED - DELETE
Posted by: Tom_T Apr 3 2009, 08:53 PM
EDITED - DELETE
Posted by: Tom_T Apr 7 2009, 04:24 PM
EDITED - DELETE
Posted by: Pat Garvey Apr 7 2009, 04:59 PM
Tom, Sorry, missed it.
You should contact Eric at PMB Performance, http://www.pmbperformance.com.
Pat
Eric is based in Sandy, Utah - that's close enough for the best.
Eagles crap out very year - I'm used to it!
Thanx - got him bookmarked!
Some of my undergrad classmates from USC `70-74 for played at each - Lynn Swan SE at PGH, & Charlie "The Tree" Young TE at Philly, plus Peter Adams (also year ahead at my HS in San Diego) RT/LT at Cleveland. The `SC footballers all used to just shake their heads at us "crazy Rugby players" in the locker room, and stand & stare
at our 
"antics" (as they called them) on their way in from daily practice!Really appreciate your sage advice!
Best!
Tom
///////
Hi Pat,
As noted above, I ordered the L&R Rebuilt calipers from PerfProd, which I will look over with my mechanic once I have them in hand. After their weekly brake system special's 15% discount - the LF caliper was only $38.25 ; & the RF was only $51.99
= +/- $90 total net cost for both L&R front calipers to me - which seemed like a pretty good price - vs. $199 net for $299 - $100 core "on sale" from PMB...
...or is that too low to be a quality job!?
...why are R more than L? ....harder to find cores? ....or harder to do?
...PP lists them as 73-76 - was there a difference from `70-72 front calipers?
If they're not up to snuff, then I'll return them & get with Eric at PMB for the full set. Otherwise I'll get just the rear calipers from PMB, since Perf.Prods. doesn't currently carry the rears (unless I can find another good quality source less than the $350 less $100 core which PMB wants for the L&R pair).
Since I'm looking for a donor parts car anyway for my body work (per my other "Researching History" post), I may be able to also get a set of 4 calipers on it suitable for cores to PMB.
Can you or anyone tell me which years' & engine size's/models' disk calipers are the same as my `73 2L?
I've located one DE or NE/Roller that's a late `72, which may have all of the body parts which I'll need to repair mine -
...so might it's `72 calipers work F &/or R ????
Also - that `72 was a June `72 prod date & with a VIN 472... - but with front bumper tits, was that a Late `72 MY change over thing or aftermarket change??
Thanx in Advance!
All I can say is - "you get what you pay for". Ain't nobody knows brakes better than Eric. And, that is worth some extra money alone.
Tell us what you get from PP. We're all inerested.
Pat
Posted by: Tom_T Apr 7 2009, 05:07 PM
EDITED - DELETE
Posted by: Pat Garvey Apr 8 2009, 06:29 PM
Tom, Sorry, missed it.
You should contact Eric at PMB Performance, http://www.pmbperformance.com.
Pat
Eric is based in Sandy, Utah - that's close enough for the best.
Eagles crap out very year - I'm used to it!
Thanx - got him bookmarked!
Some of my undergrad classmates from USC `70-74 for played at each - Lynn Swan SE at PGH, & Charlie "The Tree" Young TE at Philly, plus Peter Adams (also year ahead at my HS in San Diego) RT/LT at Cleveland. The `SC footballers all used to just shake their heads at us "crazy Rugby players" in the locker room, and stand & stare
at our "antics" (as they called them) on their way in from daily practice!Really appreciate your sage advice!
Best!
Tom
///////
Hi Pat,
As noted above, I ordered the L&R Rebuilt calipers from PerfProd, which I will look over with my mechanic once I have them in hand. After their weekly brake system special's 15% discount - the LF caliper was only $38.25 ; & the RF was only $51.99
= +/- $90 total net cost for both L&R front calipers to me - which seemed like a pretty good price - vs. $199 net for $299 - $100 core "on sale" from PMB...
...or is that too low to be a quality job!?
...why are R more than L? ....harder to find cores? ....or harder to do?
...PP lists them as 73-76 - was there a difference from `70-72 front calipers?
If they're not up to snuff, then I'll return them & get with Eric at PMB for the full set. Otherwise I'll get just the rear calipers from PMB, since Perf.Prods. doesn't currently carry the rears (unless I can find another good quality source less than the $350 less $100 core which PMB wants for the L&R pair).
Since I'm looking for a donor parts car anyway for my body work (per my other "Researching History" post), I may be able to also get a set of 4 calipers on it suitable for cores to PMB.
Can you or anyone tell me which years' & engine size's/models' disk calipers are the same as my `73 2L?
I've located one DE or NE/Roller that's a late `72, which may have all of the body parts which I'll need to repair mine -
...so might it's `72 calipers work F &/or R ????
Also - that `72 was a June `72 prod date & with a VIN 472... - but with front bumper tits, was that a Late `72 MY change over thing or aftermarket change??
Thanx in Advance!
All I can say is - "you get what you pay for". Ain't nobody knows brakes better than Eric. And, that is worth some extra money alone.
Tell us what you get from PP. We're all inerested.
Pat
Will do..........That's why I was axing!
What about the applicability of calipers for pre & post `73????
Shouldn't be a problem. You can mess around with all years, though I don't see a point. Maybe eric could step in here.
Pat
Posted by: tod914 Apr 22 2009, 10:11 AM
Eric's brake calipers look incredable. I purchased a set from cardone for my 75. Inexpensive, functioned properly, but the paint burned off and they flashed rusted. Being your doing what seems to be a very nice level of resto for your car, ship them off to Eric. They will have beautiful cad plating and look new.
Posted by: Tom_T Apr 22 2009, 01:54 PM
EDITED - DELETE
Posted by: TheMirror May 13 2009, 06:17 PM
I weighed some wheels this week at a local used Porsche parts distributor. Weights were done on a MyWeigh BCS-80 portable scale. Wheels were weighed without center caps, and consider an error possibility of 0.1 lbs.
4-lug Fuchs - 13.1 lbs.
Early Pedrini - 14.5 lbs.
Late Pedrini - 15.4 lbs.
4-lug Mahle - 13.4 lbs.
Late 4-lug steel - 16.5 lbs.
Cheers,
-Mirror
Posted by: Tom_T May 16 2009, 05:47 PM
EDITED - DELETE
Posted by: TheMirror May 24 2009, 10:19 PM
I weighed some wheels this week at a local used Porsche parts distributor. Weights were done on a MyWeigh BCS-80 portable scale. Wheels were weighed without center caps, and consider an error possibility of 0.1 lbs.
4-lug Fuchs - 13.1 lbs.
Early Pedrini - 14.5 lbs.
Late Pedrini - 15.4 lbs.
4-lug Mahle - 13.4 lbs.
Cheers,
-Mirror
Interesting that the Fuchs 2.0 Alloys are the lightest of the group!
Any idea of what the Rivieras come in at?
I didn't see any on the racks there, but I'll ask next time I'm down and I'll weigh one if they have one.
Cheers,
-Mirror
Posted by: Tom_T May 26 2009, 08:25 AM
EDITED - DELETE
Posted by: Tom_T May 31 2009, 12:59 AM
TIRE SAFETY - AGE & MANUFACTURE DATE
OK - Tire Safety seems an appropriate subject here as well, since I'm seeing folks trying to sell NOS tires at Samba, eBay, etc. - as well as some Tire Shops selling out of their old stock - some of which may NOT be safe!!!! 
Here are some websites which show the DOT required serial number / date code & how to read it, and some recent articles & info. on NHTSA & DOT recommendations for when to toss - OR DECLINE TO BUY - those older tires. Use this to check your old tires on the car, when you look at those online for sale, & even those in the Tire shop or the vaunted Coker & other vintage tire suppliers!
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/techpage.jsp?techid=11
http://www.aa1car.com/library/tire_expire.htm
http://www.ehow.com/how_4621263_read-tire-date-codes.html
The bottom line is that rubber ages, cracks & becomes "...unsafe at any speed!" (poor Corvair - another great car, esp 66-69), so DOT & NHTSA had been recommending use up to 10 years, but recently changed that advice down to 6 years, which matches long time Euro-country requirements.
Pat - yours noted above for show are long gone - no need to check, just don't drive around on them! ...put them on at the grounds, & drive on new ones. Same thing for others with "original tires" of 20-35+ years old.
So if your buying new, or assessing that online "deal" - get the date stamp, figure your typical annual mileage x how many years to get to 6 years (or 10 years tops if you want to play the odds on a performance car) from the manufacture date coded on them. Most reputable tires dealers today will say 5-7 years is the max. you should drive them, so that means low mileage & driven garage queens - or little princesses - will need new tires long before they're tread worn!
For New Tires from a store/online dealer (Coker et al) - I wouldn't pay them for anything older than 2 years myself - because I expect new tires from a store - not NOS, & due to the maximum period for which the manufacturers are required to warranty them after the sale &/or manufacture date (see links 1 & 2 for that info.)
Also, make sure that they're the proper speed rating for your 914 engine size & speed capability, as per the tag on your gas tank's expansion tank by the filler:
914-4 2.0L - HR or better - i.e.: VR + good, but TR, SR, R (non-rated) = bad
914-4 1.7L - SR or better - HR, VR +
914-4 1.8L - varied SR or HR or better, per your tag
914/6 guys & gals - step in here, as I don't know.....
( I recall seeing 185VR15s somewhere for them??)
Hope this is helpful to somebody!
....& keeps folks safe on the road too!!!!! ....well, okay, as safe as any Teener Nut can be anyway! 
For example, here are still deep tread Kleber 165HR15s which have sat in my garage for 26-28 years, which look good at first glance, but closer inspection of the sidewalls & between the tread lugs show small hairline cracks which would open up & disintegrate at road speed!!! 
Posted by: Porsche Rescue May 31 2009, 09:24 AM
Thanks Tom. Very educational and interesting. My new Vredestein Sprint Classics (155SRx15 as per the sticker on my '70) were installed last week. Code indicates manufacture in 27th week of 08. My "new" tires are about a year old! I am guessing that is not unusual.
Posted by: tod914 May 31 2009, 01:35 PM
Jim they seem reasonably priced. How do you like them?
Posted by: Porsche Rescue May 31 2009, 02:11 PM
All I can say is I like their looks! I haven't driven on them yet but should be able to in a day or two. Finalizing some other work on the car now.
You probably would want the 165's for a '74 and I think they cost quite a bit more ($109) but are H rated. They also make the Sprint + but it is not speed rated. I got them here.
http://www.vredesteintire.com/products/SPRST.asp
Posted by: Tom_T May 31 2009, 07:26 PM
I weighed some wheels this week at a local used Porsche parts distributor. Weights were done on a MyWeigh BCS-80 portable scale. Wheels were weighed without center caps, and consider an error possibility of 0.1 lbs.
4-lug Fuchs - 13.1 lbs.
Early Pedrini - 14.5 lbs.
Late Pedrini - 15.4 lbs.
4-lug Mahle - 13.4 lbs.
Cheers,
-Mirror
Interesting that the Fuchs 2.0 Alloys are the lightest of the group!
Any idea of what the Rivieras come in at?
I didn't see any on the racks there, but I'll ask next time I'm down and I'll weigh one if they have one.
Cheers,
-Mirror
RIVIERA AFTERMARKET ALLOY WHEELS - AND.....
PROOF OF A FULL SET OF 5 OE FUCHS 2.0 ALLOYS AS A "STANDARD OPTION" ON ALL 1973 MY 914-2.0/"914S" MODELS
Mirror - since you're doing this for a data base, I don't want any confusion on my question above.
BTW - the Rivieras were NOT OE on any 914s, but instead were one of the most popular AFTERMARKET wheels.
So I'm just curious as to whether they had any weight &/or strength advantages or disadvantages over what was stock.
...anyone else with weight & strength expertise?
I'm also not sure if they were really noticeably cheaper than Porsche wheels - e.g.: I read somewhere that a set of 5 of the stock OE Fuchs 2.0 Alloys seemed to run about $209 in 73/74 (or about $42 a wheel) on the window stickers for some, but then again - Jeff Bowlsby's PCA 914 SIG webpage for 914 options lists the M485 Alloy Wheels + 165HR15 tires (5 set) as $799 with tires - certainly worth a "strip & resell" game for the dealers!
...anyone have a period receipt for Rivieras of the day showing cost???
In my 73 914-2.0's case - I bought it 12/26/75 about 38 months after first sold in CA on 11/9/72 (I pretty sure I'm 2nd owner unless P.O. fibbed), and it was outfitted with 4 brushed aluminum finish Rivieras (rather than the more common polished variety) & a "Mag Style" Steelie at the spare (see pix below).
My guess without yet having found a way now to track down the seller P.O./first owner again to confirm this, is that the Dealer had replaced the 5 Fuchs 2L Alloys which were "standard upgrades" (so to speak) on the 73 2Ls, with the possibly cheaper 4 Rivieras & a "free" steelie from another 914 which they probably "upgraded" with my 914's Fuchs!
EARLY 1973 PORSCHE+AUDI DEALER 914 MARKETING BROCHURE - DETAIL OF "914S" UPGRADES PAGE ("914s" = 914-2.0 AT THAT POINT)
^ Note the OE Finish on these is Polished or Semi-Polished at the Rim & "Windmill Paddles", with a Matte Finish on the background area - ALL are a "Silver" - or more correctly - "Natural Aluminum" in color for both finishes, with the Anodized protective coating as noted above by Pat Garvey for the entire wheel (since anodizing dunks the entire wheel in the vat). I'm not sure of the finish on the 4 Lug Bolts, but they appear to be either silver painted or a natural steel finish - not chromed. Since this is from the first Porsche+Audi 914 marketing brochure to show these Alloys, it at least represents their initial finishes for the early 1973 MY.
Since mine was an early 2L (VIN 4732901954 & Engine # GA000424 - i.e.: the 424th 2.0 built), it was subject to the BO Recall for early 1973 2.0s with Alloy Wheels VIN 4732900021 to 4732908173. So perhaps the dealer could've collected up to $1739 for the 5 wheel recall/replacement, replaced the wheels on mine with less expensive 4 Rivieras & 1 Steelie, then resold at least the set of 5 Alloys originally intended for mine at $799, as well as perhaps also reselling the 5 "wrong" early Fuchs 2.0 Alloys+Tires for an earlier 70-72 914 without the self-centering hubs for additional $799 profit - rather than returning them to the distributor as required (see the P+A recall letters to the dealers on the 914 SIG webpage at the link below)! Since mine sold new on 11/9/72, & the BO recall letters went out about a month later on 12/8/72 - mine would've been an after sale recall notice to the first owner to bring it back in for the work, and could've been done by the selling dealer or any other dealer.
In rough figures for the above - said dealer could generate cashflow in the range of $1740 + $800 + $800 = $3340 of ALL PROFIT - or 3/4s the retail value of a new 73 1.7L - & probably the equivalent of having sold 3-6 914s at a 10-20% profit each!!!! ...and they could do this whether they originally sold the 914, or whether another dealer did so! Ergo, the dealer's motivation for doing this "strip the Alloys" game - especially in these early HO recall cars!
And the "steal/swap the spare" game would be lucrative in later years, especially considering that the M485 option's $799 price tag would've risen from 73-76 as did everything else, again about equal to their profit margin on selling a new 914!!!! ...and then they'd only be selling "incomplete" sets of 4 alloys for those "optional upgrades" on other 914s - presumably for the `73 1.7Ls & `74-76 1.8Ls & later `74-76 2.0Ls where the Fuchs Alloys were an added cost option - instead of "included" on the `73 2.0/"914S" models!!!
FYI for all early 1973 914 owners with the M485 Option's Alloy Wheel & 155SR15 or 165HR15 "Sport Tires" (on 1.7L models I presume), there was also another BH wheel recall for Alloys Wheels on VIN 4732902489 to 4732903800. I'm not sure whether this was for some of all of the 4-Lug Fuchs 2L, Mahle &/or Pedrini Alloys available in that model year as an option.
These recalls involved the lack of an inset on the inside face of the Alloys to receive the "new for 73" self-centering front brake disk/hubs, which have a rim that sticks out a few mm from the face around the center hub hole (see pix at link).
All or most 914 Recalls for all years & models are listed on the webpage below, along with the actual VW/Porsche+Audi Letters to dealers on these recalls at the image links in the 1-2 column(s) to the right. I think that they were complied by Jeff Bowlsby on the PCA 914 SIG website, & are an excellent resource.
http://members.rennlist.com/914_collectibles/Recalls.htm
Also note that the BH & BO recall letters at that webpage consistently refer to inspecting all 5 of the full set of 5 alloys. Ergo, at least for the 1973 MY the Alloy wheels options were a set of 5 Alloys - NOT 4 Alloys + Steel Spare! Since the M485 option could apply to the new 4 Lug Mahle, Pedrini & Fuchs 2L Alloys, this was apparently SOP to have 5 Alloys in all cases up to that point, & perhaps for 74-76 as well. So anyone missing 1 spare or all 5 Alloys was ripped off by the dealer!!!!
Here's what I got in 12/75 on my used 73 2L instead of a full set of 5 of the "new for 1973 2Ls" Fuchs 2L Alloys. The steelie spare still has an OE or early replacement Semperit M266 STT V1 steel/rayon radial 165HR15 (mfgd. in Republic of Ireland), and the Rivieras still have the last 1983 set of Kleber V12 165SR15 steel/rayon radials (yup - wrong speed rating for a 9142L!). FYI - Kleber is a subsidiary of Michelin & still in existence.
AFTERMARKET (not OE) c.1972-75 5-SPOKE 4-LUG RIVIERA WITH ORIGINAL PLASTI-CHROME CENTER CAP - BRUSHED ALUMINUM FINISH & SATIN BLACK BACKGROUND-CENTER
1983 KLEBER V12 165SR15 TREAD PATTERN - STILL DEEP ENOUGH BUT UNSAFE AT 26+ YEARS
^ Kleber Tread appears similar to Vredstiens of today.
I hope this info helps on a number of questions here!
Posted by: Tom_T May 31 2009, 07:49 PM
I've chosen to go w/ the OEM gambit- "Dunlop SP 57" 165HR15 was my original tire. "Dunlop SP Sport A2+" 195/65HR15 is what she'll have in Charolette. Both are HR rated & both are the "SP" model from Dunlop. I am planning on bringing my Kardex, Bill of Sale & COA to Charolette, as required? Should I bring my old "SP57" as well?
FYI - In my researching on OEM replacements available today, I spoke with the folks at Continental's USA HQ, and the Dunlops are NO LONGER a Tire Manufacturer on their own anymore. Apparently their brand name has been divided up amongst several Tire Mfgr. conglomerates worldwide, with Goodyear branding some of their tires as "Dunlop" for the USA/North America, while Continental owns the "Dunlop brand name" & badges tires as such in Euro-country!
So sorry to say - but your "..."Dunlop SP Sport A2+" 195/65HR15..." show tires noted above are really Goodyears! ....other CWs will need to answer whether that matters.
It is an ironic homage to the poor 914 though, that you have a lost & formerly vaunted tire name on your 914 - also an orphan of the Porsche AG!
Posted by: Tom_T May 31 2009, 10:22 PM
OK - I've gone thru all 9 pages of this thread to make sure I'm not repeating myself here (a half-zymers thing 
), since I'd posted stuff on correct period tire sources available nowadays, probably on another tires post/thread here.
There are several sources out there for the 155 & 165 x15 tires, Vredstiens being the most common, plus Michelins & Pirelli has come back out with their retro CN36s again too. Some sources below are in Great Britain & Europe - which would be "Grey Market", but they may be able to sell USA DOT approved versions, &/or you could take these to your local Tire Store to special order for you in the USA DOT approved versions.
These would all be manufactured with modern rubber compounds, belts, etc., but using the older style treads - many of which were pretty "sticky"at the time - for old style "skinny" tires. Ergo, these modern versions should perform even better - if not up to the low profile extra wide performance tires available today.
I won't include the sources for 195s again here though, since they're more readily available, and are already at my other Tires thread somewhere else here on 914world's Originality Forums.
Here are Pix of what I've found available online, as of Spring 2009:
MICHELIN XAS 165HR15
PIRELLI CA67 & CN36
PIRELLI CN36 165HR65
VREDSTIEN SPRINT CLASSIC 165HR15
Here are Links to Tire Sales websites selling the 165x15 & 155x15 Tires:
Pirellis in USA:
http://www.lucasclassictires.com/PIRELLI_OPEN.html
http://www.universaltire.com/
http://www.performanceplustire.com/products/otherTires/subSection/antiqueTires/searchType/searchBySize/sizeShort/165HR15#prodAnchor
https://store.coker.com/165hr15-vredestein-sprint-blackwall-tire.html
http://www.vredesteintire.com/products/SPRST.asp
http://www.vredesteintire.com/products/SPRIN.asp
GB Source for Michelin & Pirelli, etc.:
http://www.borrani.co.uk/Special_Tyre_Offer.php
http://www.longstonetires.com/radial.php
http://www.longstonetires.com/Special_Offer.php
http://www.longstonetires.com/productPage.php?productID=1565&categoryFilename=radial.phphttp://www.longstonetires.com/productPage.php?categoryFilename=radial.php&productID=739
http://www.longstonetires.com/productPage.php?productID=1713&categoryFilename=radial.phphttp://www.longstonetires.com/productPage.php?productID=739&categoryFilename=radial.php
Here are some options for vintage tires by our 356 Bretheren:
http://www.356registry.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=2837&sid=707e129a162dad44e707b261199b26a1
http://www.356registry.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1596&highlight=&sid=dc07db96a8819f8a1a51a07ed95f6cf9
Also - I've collected a few period 72-74 Road & Track, Motor Trend & Car and Driver magazines recently, in the research for my own 73 914-2.0, which have many tire ads which I'll try to photograph & post here when I get a chance to do so later on.
Hope this is useful to those looking for OE size tires!
Posted by: Tom_T May 31 2009, 10:40 PM
Thanks Tom. Very educational and interesting. My new Vredestein Sprint Classics (155SRx15 as per the sticker on my '70) were installed last week. Code indicates manufacture in 27th week of 08. My "new" tires are about a year old! I am guessing that is not unusual.
Jim, that's about 1st week of July 08....or 11 months old +/-
Given that these 155 & 165 sizes are nowadays special order & low volume tires, that's not bad at all. Even the "modern sizes" of 185/70-75x15 & 195/60-65x15 would show some "age" at a local tire dealer, due to shipping from the factory then to the shops, & time to sell a particular tire - they could be 6-24 months from date of manufacture until sold at a shop/dist. ctr.
But more than that is NOT worth buying as "new" nor even NOS - at least not without a huge discount for clearing old stock for them).
Those tire age dating websites which I listed also say that the warranty period varies as to whether you have your receipt or not, as follows:
"Most tire manufacturer's warranties cover their tires for four years from the date of purchase or five years from the week the tires were manufactured"
So keep your receipt so that they're warrantied for the longest possible time, given the above.
Posted by: RobW May 31 2009, 11:06 PM
Nankang and Kumho - 165 80 15s
http://www.mamotorworks.com/acvw-tires-1-198.html
Posted by: Tom_T Jun 1 2009, 12:01 AM
Nankang and Kumho - 165 80 15s
http://www.mamotorworks.com/acvw-tires-1-198.html
Keep in mind that neither of those are speed rated. Typically a minimum speed rating of SR (up to 112mph) is required/recommended for 1.7/1.8, & HR (up to 130mph) for 2.0, & I think I've seen elsewhere that VR (149mph) is used for the 914/6 with 185VR14 - as the factory specs. ...no penalties for going higher to say a VR on a 914-4 though! ...unless the CW point counters do so!
See how to read sidewalls, along with all speed ratings in the chart at the bottom of this Continental Tire web page (search "speed rating" at their main site if this link won't work):
http://www.conti-online.com/generator/www/us/en/continental/automobile/general/contiacademy/tire_ovw_101/sidewall_en.html
BTW All - I've never seen a Snow, M&S or such winter tire rated higher than SR - probably because speeds over 100mph in the snow & ice is highly inadvisable!!!!
Posted by: tod914 Jun 4 2009, 11:10 AM
Ok, I'm seeing lots of different aspect ratios for replacements for the 165x15 tires. Which would be the "most" correct or perfect size match; width & height?
Any conclussions for the best performance tire while maintianing the correct size of 165x15 to put on a 914?
Posted by: Tom_T Jun 4 2009, 01:41 PM
Ok, I'm seeing lots of different aspect ratios for replacements for the 165x15 tires. Which would be the "most" correct or perfect size match; width & height?
Any conclussions for the best performance tire while maintianing the correct size of 165x15 to put on a 914?
Tod,
The originals were 165(/80)HR15 on 2.0s & 155(/80 or 85)SR15 on the 1.7/1.8s, which I believe is what the Vredsteins & other current 165 & 155 offerings are at. Back in those days they never listed nor put on the tire sidewalls, the profile (ht. to w. ratio) of tires, which I recall only started in the late 70's or early 80s (ergo the preceding being in parentheses).
However, even my 1983 Kleber V12 165SR15s don't list the profile. And yes - that's wrong speed rating for my 2L, but that was all that was available except $200 165VR15 Bridgestones then - very pricey in 83!.
The 914world Tire calculator at the link below will calculate the running size differences in those OE sizes - with today's choices, but only in terms of speedo error, etc. - not in terms of road handling.
http://www.914world.com/specs/tirecalc.php
The 165/80x15 "zero's out" in that calculator, so my "half-zymer's memory" is correct on the 165/80, but there's NO stock 155 tire in the top drop-down menu to check against for OE size for 1.7's & 1.8's spec. tires.
> NOTE TO WHOMEVER MAINTAINS THE TIRE SIZE CALCULATOR - PLEASE ADD THE OE 155X15 TIRE SIZE FOR THE 1.7/1.8 914s OUT THERE!
- BTW - mine is a 2L, so I'm suggesting this for others.
Members here & other owners can best provide the road handling input, since MT, R&T, C&D, etc. don't test these "older size/profile" tires anymore.
Although, you could get old period issues online with road tests of them (Oldmag.com, etc.), but they wouldn't equate to today's makers nor materials & tread patterns. I have some of those old mags., but unless those publishers give a release for posting such vintage articles, we cannot post them here (scans/pix), & probably similarly for even the tire makers vintage ads (although Bowlsby has some on the PCA 914 SIG site).
ALSO - I understood from the tire suppliers back in the 80s & from what I'm seeing/reading now, you may have to "roll the fenders" in order to fit anything over 185s on the 914, or risk tearing them up on the sidewalls.
> Anyone have confirmation or input on this fender vs. tire issue?
FYI for those who are unfamiliar with the term "rolling the fenders" - that was taking a baseball bat, pipe or similar to carefully roll along the inner fender flange (part of body sheet metal at the 914 fenders which turns in towards the wheels) - primarily at the top of the arch in the rear fenders & often all around at fronts (due to wheel turning action), in order to slowly push the flange up against the fender body panel's inner face, in order to make more clearance room & eliminate the sharp unfinished edge as a sidewall cutting risk. But I don't know if doing that causes problems as a modification for the CW & show types??
> Anyone have confirmation or input on this CW issue?
Hope this helps!
Posted by: Porsche Rescue Jun 4 2009, 09:57 PM
Very few manufacturers make the "correct" size. Vredenstein (made in Holland) is one. Also Michelin available from Coker tire. There are at least two manfacturers of "budget" modern tires, Kuhmo and Nanking(not sure that is correct, but close) who make 165/80x15. They are not speed rated but I believe they are perfectly safe for any 914. If you want more of a modern performance tire with more choices you have to go to 195/65x15. They are very close to stock diameter but not exact.
As Tom says, use the tire calculator to see the difference.
Posted by: Tom_T Jun 4 2009, 11:43 PM
Very few manufacturers make the "correct" size. Vredenstein (made in Holland) is one. Also Michelin available from Coker tire. There are at least two manfacturers of "budget" modern tires, Kuhmo and Nanking(not sure that is correct, but close) who make 165/80x15. They are not speed rated but I believe they are perfectly safe for any 914. If you want more of a modern performance tire with more choices you have to go to 195/65x15. They are very close to stock diameter but not exact.
As Tom says, use the tire calculator to see the difference.
Tod & Jim
There are also the Pirelli 165HR15s at the links I provided above - which they've reintroduced over the past year, as well as Lucas at those links with the Pirellis also handle the Michelin XAS etc. too I believe.
Check with your local Pirelli & Michelin dealers to see if they can special order them for you & at what prices. Let us all know back here what you find out on those. You can probably bargain better with your local shop for a deal in this economy, rather than just taking whatever the online prices are now. They're all hungry for business to stay afloat, & usually appreciate the local patronage!
As for the non-rated budget tires, I'd stay away from them since they're not built to withstand the type of lateral forces which 914s can generate, even in "normal" (for a 914) street driving. That's why Porsche spec'd it that way!
I've had the hairy
experience of a new set of the "wrong" Michelins disintegrate on me on the freeway at 70mph in my `88 VW Vanagon CamplerGL (Westfalia), after they didn't tell me that the proper tires had been discontinued. I had my 2 then small kids in the car then too when they blew out! Westy's don't corner fast like a 914, but they're tall, narrow track, have skinny 185/75x15 tires carrying 4500+ lbs loaded, & therefore beat the 
out of tires. We've stepped up to light truck/RV tires on it now for safetyAlso at Bowlsby's 914 SIG site link below, they list several optional OE tire setups, one of which was 185/75VR15 & I've seen it as 185/70VR15 & in the HR variety too somewhere else.
http://members.rennlist.com/914_collectibles/OpEq.htm
There are some of those 185s around today too, so you could look at those since the 185/70x15 is only 0.8% fast, or the 185/75x15 is only 2.1% slow (according to the tire calculator).
Whereas the now common 195/65x15 is double the former's error at 1.6% fast. I also seem to recall that the 195s require rolling the fenders, as well as the fronts rubbing on the inner wheel wells when you're close to the stops. That was why I ended up sticking with the "wrong" 165SR15 Klebers back in the early 1980's! ...although those could've been for the taller 195/70 or 75 sizes which were out then, but are rare now?
However, I don't know if the CW police ding you for having that type of "period upgrade" if it wasn't originally on the car?
Who wants to tip-toe around corners in a 914!? ...get the proper tires &
it!
Posted by: Tom_T Jun 7 2009, 03:47 PM
FYI - A TIRE AD FROM MY COPY OF ROAD & TRACK FEB 1973 (The one with their "914/2 Road Test" article)
BTW - Don't expect those prices today , nor try calling them or driving over there - I think they're long gone!
Posted by: Pat Garvey Jun 7 2009, 07:32 PM
Ok, I'm seeing lots of different aspect ratios for replacements for the 165x15 tires. Which would be the "most" correct or perfect size match; width & height?
Any conclussions for the best performance tire while maintianing the correct size of 165x15 to put on a 914?
Tod,
The originals were 165(/80)HR15 on 2.0s & 155(/80 or 85)SR15 on the 1.7/1.8s, which I believe is what the Vredsteins & other current 165 & 155 offerings are at. Back in those days they never listed nor put on the tire sidewalls, the profile (ht. to w. ratio) of tires, which I recall only started in the late 70's or early 80s (ergo the preceding being in parentheses).
However, even my 1983 Kleber V12 165SR15s don't list the profile. And yes - that's wrong speed rating for my 2L, but that was all that was available except $200 165VR15 Bridgestones then - very pricey in 83!.
The 914world Tire calculator at the link below will calculate the running size differences in those OE sizes - with today's choices, but only in terms of speedo error, etc. - not in terms of road handling.
http://www.914world.com/specs/tirecalc.php
The 165/80x15 "zero's out" in that calculator, so my "half-zymer's memory" is correct on the 165/80, but there's NO stock 155 tire in the top drop-down menu to check against for OE size for 1.7's & 1.8's spec. tires.
> NOTE TO WHOMEVER MAINTAINS THE TIRE SIZE CALCULATOR - PLEASE ADD THE OE 155X15 TIRE SIZE FOR THE 1.7/1.8 914s OUT THERE!
- BTW - mine is a 2L, so I'm suggesting this for others.
Members here & other owners can best provide the road handling input, since MT, R&T, C&D, etc. don't test these "older size/profile" tires anymore.
Although, you could get old period issues online with road tests of them (Oldmag.com, etc.), but they wouldn't equate to today's makers nor materials & tread patterns. I have some of those old mags., but unless those publishers give a release for posting such vintage articles, we cannot post them here (scans/pix), & probably similarly for even the tire makers vintage ads (although Bowlsby has some on the PCA 914 SIG site).
ALSO - I understood from the tire suppliers back in the 80s & from what I'm seeing/reading now, you may have to "roll the fenders" in order to fit anything over 185s on the 914, or risk tearing them up on the sidewalls.
> Anyone have confirmation or input on this fender vs. tire issue?
FYI for those who are unfamiliar with the term "rolling the fenders" - that was taking a baseball bat, pipe or similar to carefully roll along the inner fender flange (part of body sheet metal at the 914 fenders which turns in towards the wheels) - primarily at the top of the arch in the rear fenders & often all around at fronts (due to wheel turning action), in order to slowly push the flange up against the fender body panel's inner face, in order to make more clearance room & eliminate the sharp unfinished edge as a sidewall cutting risk. But I don't know if doing that causes problems as a modification for the CW & show types??
> Anyone have confirmation or input on this CW issue?
Hope this helps!
My original Continental spare is a 165/15 380, for what it's worth.
Also, for what it's worth, I've run 195/60 Yoko A008R's with no modifications & no rubbing.
Still undecided as to what tires to put on the car, but I WILL NOT play the game with remoulded Michelins. There comes a time when safety is paramount over orginality. Yes, I said that!
Pat
Posted by: Porsche Rescue Jun 7 2009, 07:53 PM
I rejected the Michelins due to excessive price. But I don't understand how they can be any less safe than they were 40 years ago. I don't recall any more catastrophic tire failure of quality radials in 1970 than in 2009. Our light weight four cylinder cars certainly don't need the tires required on my '06 Carerra.
Posted by: Tom_T Jun 7 2009, 10:28 PM
[quote name='Pat Garvey' date='Jun 7 2009, 06:32 PM' post='1177744']
[quote name='Tom_T' post='1176564' date='Jun 4 2009, 01:41 PM']
[quote name='tod914' post='1176510' date='Jun 4 2009, 10:10 AM']
ALSO - I understood from the tire suppliers back in the 80s & from what I'm seeing/reading now, you may have to "roll the fenders" in order to fit anything over 185s on the 914, or risk tearing them up on the sidewalls.
> Anyone have confirmation or input on this fender vs. tire issue?
FYI for those who are unfamiliar with the term "rolling the fenders" - that was taking a baseball bat, pipe or similar to carefully roll along the inner fender flange (part of body sheet metal at the 914 fenders which turns in towards the wheels) - primarily at the top of the arch in the rear fenders & often all around at fronts (due to wheel turning action), in order to slowly push the flange up against the fender body panel's inner face, in order to make more clearance room & eliminate the sharp unfinished edge as a sidewall cutting risk. But I don't know if doing that causes problems as a modification for the CW & show types??
> Anyone have confirmation or input on this CW issue?
Hope this helps!
[/quote]
My original Continental spare is a 165/15 380, for what it's worth.
Also, for what it's worth, I've run 195/60 Yoko A008R's with no modifications & no rubbing.
Still undecided as to what tires to put on the car, but I WILL NOT play the game with remoulded Michelins. There comes a time when safety is paramount over orginality. Yes, I said that!
Pat
[/quote]
Thanx for the input on the 195s Pat.
I suspect that the early 1985s during the late 1970s & early 1980s were a taller profile of perhaps 195/70 - 80 x 15, & therefore stuck out further to rub when wheels were turned to the locks.
I'm sure that the OE 165 & 155 Michelins are just as safe as they ever were, if not a bit better with current rubber compounds. I just think that at $200-300+ per tire, they're waaaaay over priced for what you get! Heck - they were only $37 in that 1973 ad I posted above!
However, those 195/60HR15s probably stick like glue!!!!
[edit] PS - That 37+ year old Conti spare is pretty much worthless today, so I hope you're not relying on that if you get a flat!?
Posted by: Tom_T Jun 7 2009, 10:45 PM
I rejected the Michelins due to excessive price. But I don't understand how they can be any less safe than they were 40 years ago. I don't recall any more catastrophic tire failure of quality radials in 1970 than in 2009. Our light weight four cylinder cars certainly don't need the tires required on my '06 Carerra.
They're not less safe per tire today, for the specified use. ...proper specified use & tire for your particular vehicle being the operative word. My "off spec dangers" example up above was not for a 914.
The "disintegrating tires" I was referring to above, were some 8 ply (6 sidewall + 2 tread) Michelins which they had specifically made for the 85-91 Vanagons & Westfalia's to withstand the high side-forces generated on a tall & narrow track & heavy van running on skinny tires.
Rather than tell me that the proper OES spec'd tire was discontinued by Michelin & letting me make an intelligent choice, the tire shop substituted lesser quality passenger car tires which Michelin had listed as the "new replacement" - which had a far less stiff 4 ply (2+2) radial that flexed a lot more & eventually blew themselves out due to flex & resultant heat!!!
It was the subject of a big NHTSA & DOT recall campaign against Michelin & VW back in the early/mid-1990s!
So - no worries on those Michelins in the proper size & speed rating, but I agree that they're way too high $$$ for what they are, & the Pirellis are too!
Posted by: Tom_T Jun 7 2009, 10:54 PM
OK CWs out there -
....what about splitting the difference between the "stock" 165(/80)HR15 (or SR) or 155(/80)SR15 - & - the 195/65HR-VR15 (195/60 in Pat's case)?
would the CW judges ding a car for having the 185/70 or 185/75 x15 in either HR or VR speed rating, since it was an optional factory upgrade????
914 SIG Options shows:
"M471 - 914/6 GT Equipment-Steel flares, 6Jx15 Alloy wheels with 185/75VR15 tires, 5.5Jx15 Alloy wheels with 165HR15 tires, 66mm wheel bolts, 21mm wheel spacers front and rear"
If they still ding you - is PCA saying that ONLY the tires as spec'd on your tire label &/or Munroney window sticker etc. is acceptable??? 
Posted by: Jasfsmith Jun 8 2009, 08:49 AM
OK CWs out there -
....what about splitting the difference between the "stock" 165(/80)HR15 (or SR) or 155(/80)SR15 - & - the 195/65HR-VR15 (195/60 in Pat's case)?
would the CW judges ding a car for having the 185/70 or 185/75 x15 in either HR or VR speed rating, since it was an optional factory upgrade????
914 SIG Options shows:
"M471 - 914/6 GT Equipment-Steel flares, 6Jx15 Alloy wheels with 185/75VR15 tires, 5.5Jx15 Alloy wheels with 165HR15 tires, 66mm wheel bolts, 21mm wheel spacers front and rear"
If they still ding you - is PCA saying that ONLY the tires as spec'd on your tire label &/or Munroney window sticker etc. is acceptable???
They do and have in the past. The correct CW tire is one that matches the factory tire size designation (check your owners manual and tire size stickers) and is period correct, for THAT vehicle and MY. I learned the hard way on my "SIX" at the Portland Parade. I had a contemporary tire and was dinged. Correctly so, as the emphasis of the judging leans towards originality and condition. I opted for a set of the Michelin XAS 165H15 since. I have been surprised at how many positive comments I receive about running the period correct tires at various shows ( and not just from judges). People looking for originality expect the tires to just one more component to be considered.
Having run both contemporary profile and original (currently) I can truly say that I like the ride of the original better.
As to Pat's safety concern, I say BUNK! All tires for sale are required to meet current day DOT requirements regardless of moulding.
Posted by: Tom_T Jun 8 2009, 07:49 PM
OK CWs out there -
....what about splitting the difference between the "stock" 165(/80)HR15 (or SR) or 155(/80)SR15 - & - the 195/65HR-VR15 (195/60 in Pat's case)?
would the CW judges ding a car for having the 185/70 or 185/75 x15 in either HR or VR speed rating, since it was an optional factory upgrade????
914 SIG Options shows:
"M471 - 914/6 GT Equipment-Steel flares, 6Jx15 Alloy wheels with 185/75VR15 tires, 5.5Jx15 Alloy wheels with 165HR15 tires, 66mm wheel bolts, 21mm wheel spacers front and rear"
If they still ding you - is PCA saying that ONLY the tires as spec'd on your tire label &/or Munroney window sticker etc. is acceptable???
They do and have in the past. The correct CW tire is one that matches the factory tire size designation (check your owners manual and tire size stickers) and is period correct, for THAT vehicle and MY. I learned the hard way on my "SIX" at the Portland Parade. I had a contemporary tire and was dinged. Correctly so, as the emphasis of the judging leans towards originality and condition. I opted for a set of the Michelin XAS 165H15 since. I have been surprised at how many positive comments I receive about running the period correct tires at various shows ( and not just from judges). People looking for originality expect the tires to just one more component to be considered.
Having run both contemporary profile and original (currently) I can truly say that I like the ride of the original better.
As to Pat's safety concern, I say BUNK! All tires for sale are required to meet current day DOT requirements regardless of moulding.
So James - does that mean any period tire maker only for mfgr?
...or only those supplied OES on the 914s in 70-76 - e.g.: Dunlop, Continental, Michelin & maybe Semperit & Pirelli?
...and Vredstein is not acceptable as a "modern maker"?
...or is it just the size & speed rating only by any maker?
I agree with the 165s vs. "fatties" giving a better ride - cuz the bigger tires have larger mass/weight & therefore more resistance in rolling inertia, as well as the lower profile tires transmitting more road bumps etc.!
Other stock/street 914s which I've driven with the 195s seemed slower to get going (esp. 1.7s) & not a quick turning. ...of course, that's aside from the souped up versions & AXs!
I wonder what PCA would do if NOBODY made the old sizes any more????
Posted by: Jasfsmith Jun 9 2009, 09:07 AM
They do and have in the past. The correct CW tire is one that matches the factory tire size designation (check your owners manual and tire size stickers) and is period correct, for THAT vehicle and MY. I learned the hard way on my "SIX" at the Portland Parade. I had a contemporary tire and was dinged. Correctly so, as the emphasis of the judging leans towards originality and condition. I opted for a set of the Michelin XAS 165H15 since. I have been surprised at how many positive comments I receive about running the period correct tires at various shows ( and not just from judges). People looking for originality expect the tires to just one more component to be considered.
Having run both contemporary profile and original (currently) I can truly say that I like the ride of the original better.
As to Pat's safety concern, I say BUNK! All tires for sale are required to meet current day DOT requirements regardless of moulding.
So James - does that mean any period tire maker only for mfgr?
...or only those supplied OES on the 914s in 70-76 - e.g.: Dunlop, Continental, Michelin & maybe Semperit & Pirelli?
...and Vredstein is not acceptable as a "modern maker"?
...or is it just the size & speed rating only by any maker?
I agree with the 165s vs. "fatties" giving a better ride - cuz the bigger tires have larger mass/weight & therefore more resistance in rolling inertia, as well as the lower profile tires transmitting more road bumps etc.!
Other stock/street 914s which I've driven with the 195s seemed slower to get going (esp. 1.7s) & not a quick turning. ...of course, that's aside from the souped up versions & AXs!
I wonder what PCA would do if NOBODY made the old sizes any more????
In my research, I could not find any "manufacturer" specific requirements put forth by Porsche. Only the tire descriptor info (size and speed rating). Any tire meeting the size and speed rating found in the owners manual or on the tire label in the trunk or on the door jamb (irrespective of tire manufacturer) would be a proper tire for the car. However to step up to concour judging level, it also should be "period" correct. That is to say, a tire available during the time of car manufacturer.
If the tire manufacturer/tire design (tread pattern)/profile (size and speed rating) was available back in the '70s, then you would be safe.
Posted by: Tom_T Jun 9 2009, 06:56 PM
[quote name='Jasfsmith' date='Jun 9 2009, 08:07 AM' post='1178495']
[quote name='Tom_T' post='1178248' date='Jun 8 2009, 09:49 PM']
[quote name='Jasfsmith' post='1177924' date='Jun 8 2009, 07:49 AM']
[/quote]
In my research, I could not find any "manufacturer" specific requirements put forth by Porsche. Only the tire descriptor info (size and speed rating). Any tire meeting the size and speed rating found in the owners manual or on the tire label in the trunk or on the door jamb (irrespective of tire manufacturer) would be a proper tire for the car. However to step up to concour judging level, it also should be "period" correct. That is to say, a tire available during the time of car manufacturer.
If the tire manufacturer/tire design (tread pattern)/profile (size and speed rating) was available back in the '70s, then you would be safe.
[/quote]
Thanx for the clarification!
So it seems that one must ante up the very high price of $200-300+ apiece for either the Michelin or Pirelli correct size/rating & period repros for the CW crowd! 
Dunlop SP's are still around, but they are NOT a separate company anymore - actually just a brand name for Goodyear in the USA - AND they're not available in 165HR15 right now
- so they're out.
Semperits don't come to the USA, nor do they have that size today. ...they were great tires too - I had both M401 & M266 on mine, but they're NLA now!
Continental owns Semperit & the Euro-Dunlop brand name, but do not make anything in the proper size anymore either.
Klebers were around then & have been owned by Michelin since 1995, but don't offer the size/rating today (I had their race developed V10s put on my `73 914-2L in 83) & they were great tires! ...but can't get them today either!
Vredsteins are only good for the mere mortals wanting to drive the OE size & speed rating tires at a +/- 50% lower price to those above - at $105 apiece!
unless....
Does anyone know if Vredsteins were around during the 1970's????
Posted by: Tom_T Jun 9 2009, 08:37 PM
VREDESTEIN TIRE UPDATE
Okay - I just did some on-line research on the Vredestein Classic Tires.
DOES ANYONE KNOW FOR CERTAIN IF VREDESTEIN WAS PRODUCING - HOPEFULLY IN SIZES: 155SR15 &/OR 165HR15 AUTO TIRES - DURING THE 914's 1970-77 PRODUCTION TIME FRAME?????
If so, then they would be a more cost effective alternative for the CWs too! 
According to this press release from 5/09 - they were bought from Michelin by a Russian Co. in 2005, which went BK - & now Vredestein was bought 4/09 by Apollo Tyres of India (Tata's in their future?). Production remains in the Netherlands, with now interruptions in production during their former parent company's BK.
That article says that they'd been an independent tire company since 1946, but it's not clear if they produced tires for the 914 fitment during 70-77?
see this link:
http://www.vredestein.com/Media_Nieuwsberichten.asp?NieuwsID=211&HerkomsttabelID=2&UserSessionID=85063899
According to their Tire Design & Spec info on their website, their "Classic" tires are all mfgd to current standards, methods & compounds - see below:
You can download Tire Info. at:
http://www.vredestein.com/file_banden/2006/Brochures/Brochure%20VR%20summer%202009_ENG.pdf?UserSessionID=85063899
http://www.vredestein.com/file_banden/2006/CLASSIC%20FOLDER%202007%20EN.pdf?UserSessionID=85063899
http://www.vredestein.com/file_banden/2006/Tyre%20cards/2007/Engels/Tyre%20Cards%20GB%20Sprint+.pdf?UserSessionID=85063899
http://www.vredestein.com/file_banden/2006/Tyre%20cards/2007/Engels/Tyre%20Cards%20GB%20Sprint%20Classic.pdf?UserSessionID=85063899
Vredestein Home:
http://www.vredestein.com/
http://www.vredestein.com/index.asp?TaalID=1
VREDESTEIN "CLASSIC SPRINT" 165(/80)HR15 TIRE EXAMPLE:
Hope this helps someone out there!
Posted by: Porsche Rescue Jun 9 2009, 09:12 PM
My car is not a concour candidate, but here's my 155SRx15 Vredensteins installed last week. $84 each plus shipping and mount balance.
Posted by: Tom_T Jun 10 2009, 12:53 AM
Here's a list of comparable period correct tires from our kin at the 356 Registry, which is about a year old now, that I found at the following 356Reg. links:
http://www.356registry.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1596&highlight=&sid=dc07db96a8819f8a1a51a07ed95f6cf9
http://356registry.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=615
<snipped>
These are all still in production though your local tire man may need to
order them up.
( the last number is the diameter in mm)
165SR15 B.F.Goodrich W/W Tire 635
165SR15 Dayton W/W Tire 635
165SR15 Michelin XZX Tire 646
165SR15 Firestone F560 Tire 646
165HR15 Vredestein Classic Tire 645
165HR15 Michelin XAS Tire 646
165SR15 Vredestein Tire 645
180HR15 Michelin XAS Tire 680
185/70VR15 Pirelli CN36 652
185/70HR15 Avon CR6ZZ Tire 635
185/70VR15 Michelin XWX Tire 641
185/70HR15 Vredestein Classic Tire 650
185/70VR15 Pirelli Cinturato CN36 Tire 652
<end snip>
nOTE: I've bolded the ones above which I've seen on-line recently, & the Pirelli CN36's may be dupes of the same tire.
Also, Lucas & Coker seem to have additional sizes of the Pirellis & Michelins available, beyond those on this list. ...just go to their websites -
Some on the list are white wall (ww), which would need to be mounted inside out on a 914 to "look right" - but then the sidewall markings may not??
Posted by: Tom_T Jun 10 2009, 12:56 AM
EDITED - DELETE
Posted by: Tom_T Jun 10 2009, 01:31 AM
Lotsa good vintage tire info at this link:
http://www.longstonetyres.co.uk/Choose-your-rubber.php
Posted by: Tom_T Jun 10 2009, 01:58 AM
MORE UPDATES ON VINTAGE TIRES' AVAILABILITY:
Longstone Tyres UK carries a wide selection of vintage tires over in "Limey-land" (that's "P.O.M.E.-land for our "Aussie" friends), and will ship to the USA &/or sells tires through their US affiliate.
Longstone Tyres UK Home:
http://www.longstonetyres.co.uk/index.php
Their USA agent is Lucas Tires (Long Beach CA & Springfield OH), but their website doesn't have the search option at the tire size search links below by Longstone, but Lucas should be able to source anything which Longstone offers.
Lucas Tires Home:
http://www.lucasclassictires.com/
Here's what comes up for the Longstone UK tire searches as available today, & it seems similar to that 356Reg list:
Note that the Prices there are in British Pounds Stirling, & Google gives the current Pound to Dollar Exchange Rate as: "1 British pound = 1.6335 U.S. dollars" - So multiply their prices by 1.65 to be easier.
165x15
http://www.longstonetyres.co.uk/search.php?searchMethod=term&searchTerm=165+X+15
155x15
http://www.longstonetyres.co.uk/search.php?searchMethod=term&searchTerm=155+X+15
This tire search is as of 6/9/09
Posted by: Jasfsmith Jun 10 2009, 07:44 AM
Does anyone know if Vredsteins were around during the 1970's????
Vredsteins were available in the '70s.
Posted by: Tom_T Jun 10 2009, 06:13 PM
Does anyone know if Vredsteins were around during the 1970's????
Vredsteins were available in the '70s.
According to the guy at Lucas Tires, Vredsteins were not OES & won't qualify as CW for shows!
"Vredestein was not an O.E. manufacturer, and would not be a period correc tire for car shows." - Robert Montgomery, Lucas Automotive
I'm getting some prices & additional info. from him on 165HR15s of various brands, which I'll post when I get them back from him.
Here's another matter to ponder for the CWs out there:
Both the currently available Pirelli CN36 165HR15s & the Michelin XAS 165HR15s are TUBE-TYPE tires - NOT tubeless as OE on 1973+ 914s (& perhaps earlier too) - so they're really NOT the proper OE tire for 914s either!!!!
...plus they're extremely expensive for a set of 4-5!!!! 
Porsche (& VW) came out with the then "new" 5.5J x 15 rims & alloys in model year 1973 (1972) specifically for tubeless radials, so I doubt that I'd want to take a step backward from 1973 technology today to tubes!!!!
I also question the judging logic of PCA deducting points for the wrong make tire in the proper size & tubeless type, while not deducting points for the improper tube-type tires in the proper size/rating & period or repro maker.
It would seem that PCA etc. should make allowances for the time when actual OE maker/size/rating/type tires are NLA at all, but repros like the Vredstein "Sprint Classics" are available!
I've never shown my 914, but I've read some of the PCA's CW rules - & they both expect correct maker, size/rating & type of tires on the car, & expect you to drive the car to the events & in the Parades - for the maximum points to be achieved!
So - since they're NLA in 165HR15 tubeless radial by ANY of the OE tire manufacturers of the period, that only leaves driving on an extremely old & absolutely unsafe set of 32-40 year old tires on a 914!!!!
Are those PCA "Rulemakers" Nucking Futz!????
...or just completely out of touch with reality & safe driving, or mentally challenged or something???
Is there a way to petition PCA to instead accept & score based upon the closest combination(s) of the currently available OES/OEM/period/repro makers' features of: brand/mfgr. name, tire model/name (e.g.: Dunlop's SP57, Pirelli's CN36, Michelin's XAS, etc.), size/speed rating &/or tube or tubeless type - since nobody can do them all with a safe tire today?? ...in other words: PCA would score for the best combination of those factors & features, with the adds/deducts for each category under tires?
...for example:
A tubeless Vredestein "Sprint Classic" 165HR15 radial would lose 1 pt. for being a non-OE maker/mfgr/brand,
while a tube-type Pirelli CN36 or Michelin XAS in 165HR15 would lose 1 pt. for not being tubeless,
- thereby BOTH are equal in points, period correct & are safe to drive!
Posted by: Porsche Rescue Jun 10 2009, 07:04 PM
Somewhere many months ago in this thread and others, I argued that the best available concours option for a 914-4 is the tubeless Michelin XZX. It is S rated but my original spare 155SR Michelin is a ZX (the second X came sometime after 1970). I also once owned a '76 914 with factory tires and they were also S rated Michelins. Not sure if ZX or XZX.
Posted by: Tom_T Jun 10 2009, 07:57 PM
Somewhere many months ago in this thread and others, I argued that the best available concours option for a 914-4 is the tubeless Michelin XZX. It is S rated but my original spare 155SR Michelin is a ZX (the second X came sometime after 1970). I also once owned a '76 914 with factory tires and they were also S rated Michelins. Not sure if ZX or XZX.
Jim - those work fine for the 914 1.7s & 1.8s out there which OE spec'd 155SR15, but we 2.0 914-4 owners were OE spec'd with 165HR15s - ergo the "rub"!!
FYI - XWXs here at Longstone (Lucas):
http://www.longstonetyres.co.uk/productPage.php?productID=737&categoryFilename=radial.php
^--- check here, then call them there ---v
http://www.lucasclassictires.com/
It looks like those XZX's may also be tube-type, since that link above lists a tube when you click to purchase, but I can't get them to come up at all on the Coker Tire site with a description as such.
Posted by: Pat Garvey Jun 10 2009, 08:19 PM
Does anyone know if Vredsteins were around during the 1970's????
Vredsteins were available in the '70s.
According to the guy at Lucas Tires, Vredsteins were not OES & won't qualify as CW for shows!
"Vredestein was not an O.E. manufacturer, and would not be a period correc tire for car shows." - Robert Montgomery, Lucas Automotive
I'm getting some prices & additional info. from him on 165HR15s of various brands, which I'll post when I get them back from him.
Here's another matter to ponder for the CWs out there:
Both the currently available Pirelli CN36 165HR15s & the Michelin XAS 165HR15s are TUBE-TYPE tires - NOT tubeless as OE on 1973+ 914s (& perhaps earlier too) - so they're really NOT the proper OE tire for 914s either!!!!
...plus they're extremely expensive for a set of 4-5!!!! Porsche (& VW) came out with the then "new" 5.5J x 15 rims & alloys in model year 1973 (1972) specifically for tubeless radials, so I doubt that I'd want to take a step backward from 1973 technology today to tubes!!!!
I also question the judging logic of PCA deducting points for the wrong make tire in the proper size & tubeless type, while not deducting points for the improper tube-type tires in the proper size/rating & period or repro maker.
It would seem that PCA etc. should make allowances for the time when actual OE maker/size/rating/type tires are NLA at all, but repros like the Vredstein "Sprint Classics" are available!
I've never shown my 914, but I've read some of the PCA's CW rules - & they both expect correct maker, size/rating & type of tires on the car, & expect you to drive the car to the events & in the Parades - for the maximum points to be achieved!
So - since they're NLA in 165HR15 tubeless radial by ANY of the OE tire manufacturers of the period, that only leaves driving on an extremely old & absolutely unsafe set of 32-40 year old tires on a 914!!!!
Are those PCA "Rulemakers" Nucking Futz!????
...or just completely out of touch with reality & safe driving, or mentally challenged or something???
Is there a way to petition PCA to instead accept & score based upon the closest combination(s) of the currently available OES/OEM/period/repro makers' features of: brand/mfgr. name, tire model/name (e.g.: Dunlop's SP57, Pirelli's CN36, Michelin's XAS, etc.), size/speed rating &/or tube or tubeless type - since nobody can do them all with a safe tire today?? ...in other words: PCA would score for the best combination of those factors & features, with the adds/deducts for each category under tires?
...for example:
A tubeless Vredestein "Sprint Classic" 165HR15 radial would lose 1 pt. for being a non-OE maker/mfgr/brand,
while a tube-type Pirelli CN36 or Michelin XAS in 165HR15 would lose 1 pt. for not being tubeless,
- thereby BOTH are equal in points, period correct & are safe to drive!
I will only echo points that I've made in the past.
You can not put "real" CW tires on an early 914 without giving up safety & handling. I still have my original Continental tube-type spare. Holds air, but only until the tibe expires. Wouldn't trust it for eve a 100 mile trip.
Vredesteins were NEVER an original US spec 914 tire.
Yep, you can get XAS's, with tubes, from Coker. Yep, they'll appear original for a four. Yep, they'll cost you 2 grand to get installed (total). Yep, they'll handle just like they did in the early 70's, which is why everyone dumped them. Yep, you can say similar things about XWX's for sixers.
I'm a diehard CW, but when it comes to safety, it's time to rethink. Yep, you'll get gigged at a major show for the tires, but at least you got there & can get back home.
Pat
Posted by: Tom_T Jun 10 2009, 08:40 PM
EDITED - DELETE
Posted by: Pat Garvey Jun 10 2009, 09:18 PM
[quote name='Tom_T' date='Jun 10 2009, 08:40 PM' post='1179239']
[quote name='Pat Garvey' date='Jun 10 2009, 07:19 PM' post='1179228']
[quote name='Tom_T' post='1179163' date='Jun 10 2009, 06:13 PM']
[quote name='Jasfsmith' post='1178902' date='Jun 10 2009, 06:44 AM']
[quote name='Tom_T' post='1178731' date='Jun 9 2009, 08:56 PM']
Is there a way to petition PCA to instead accept & score based upon the closest combination(s) of the currently available OES/OEM/period/repro makers' features of: brand/mfgr. name, tire model/name (e.g.: Dunlop's SP57, Pirelli's CN36, Michelin's XAS, etc.), size/speed rating &/or tube or tubeless type - since nobody can do them all with a safe tire today??
...in other words: PCA would score for the best combination of those factors & features, with the adds/deducts for each category under tires?
...for example:
A tubeless Vredestein "Sprint Classic" 165HR15 radial would lose 1 pt. for being a non-OE maker/mfgr/brand,
while a tube-type Pirelli CN36 or Michelin XAS in 165HR15 would lose 1 pt. for not being tubeless,
- thereby BOTH are equal in points, period correct & are safe to drive!
[/quote]
You can not put "real" CW tires on an early 914 without giving up safety & handling. I still have my original Continental tube-type spare. Holds air, but only until the tibe expires. Wouldn't trust it for eve a 100 mile trip.
I'm a diehard CW, but when it comes to safety, it's time to rethink. Yep, you'll get gigged at a major show for the tires, but at least you got there & can get back home.
Pat
[/quote]
So Pat - you're a PCA member & respected multiple concours winner - can't you & others of your stature in PCA petition for some sort of a more sane rating system, such as what I'd suggested above for tires?
[/quote]
Chuckle here!
Look, I first noticed that something was wierd about tires for PCA Parade purposes in '93. That was the year I chaired the Parade Concours.
As you might expect, I'd spent over a year in prep for the event & couldn't enter my own car (well it just didn't seem right to do so). But I noticed way back then that entrants were being slaughtered for not having "original" tires.
I was amzed at how many Porsches were whapped for major points because of unoriginal tires. Many competitors lost solely on tires. Set me to thinking.
Tried to make the point with the Parade Concours Comitte that tires were a "safety" thing and should be thought of as the relief given to early 911 owners who had hydropneumatic struts( which were given the OK to substitute). Fell on deaf ears. Two members of the committee ruled me out as a crackpot. The third admitted that I had concerns, but was ruled by the rules. That was 2 years ago. I gave up up after several unanswered appeals.
One one hand I can see the concerns -maximization of purity. Hard to argue with.
On the other hand, I feel that safety should be paramount over originality (yeah, I know...).
I would only suggest tht a grass roots movement be started to change this absurd rule. Be happy to apply my name.
Pat
Posted by: Tom_T Jun 10 2009, 10:53 PM
EDITED - DELETE
Posted by: orange914 Jun 10 2009, 11:02 PM
So far I have -
1970 - 4.5" Painted steel
1971 - 4.5" Painted steel, 5.5" Chrome steel, 5.5" Pedrini
1972 - 4.5" Painted steel, 5.5" Chrome steel, 5.5" Pedrini
1973 - 5.5" Painted steel (new style), 5.5" forged Fuchs, 5.5" Mahle
1974 - 5.5" Painted steel (new style), 5.5" forged Fuchs, 5.5" Mahle
1975 - 5.5" Painted steel (new style), 5.5" forged Fuchs, 5.5" Mahle
1976 - 5.5" Painted steel (new style), 5.5" forged Fuchs, 5.5" Mahle
Cheers,
-Mirror
i know these "westerns" are aftermarket, (15x5.5) but i've seen these more often than not on early 73's like mine. this group mentioned are the first 1000 + - sent over to fill sales, origanally slated for europe. i'm thinking the dealer put them on a majority of them???
Posted by: Tom_T Jun 11 2009, 01:32 AM
The early 1973 914-2Ls were subject to the BH & BO Wheel recalls as listed at the link below (those built up through Dec. 1972):
> http://members.rennlist.com/914_collectibles/Recalls.htm
Scroll to those recalls near the bottom of the chart, click the hot links at the right 2 columns, & read the actual letters to the dealers for each & you can see which applied to your early 914-2.0/914S. That's how I identified which applied to mine.
I put a post earlier here on page 9 - 6th down, which discussed this in detail.
THIS SHOWS THE "CORRECT" INSET AT THE CENTER OF THE BACK OF FUCHS ALLOYS - WHICH SHOULD ALSO BE ON ALL WHEELS FOR 1973+ 914s WITH THE SELF-CENTERING FRONT HUBS:
EDITED 3-24-12
Posted by: Jasfsmith Jun 11 2009, 08:41 AM
Tom:
Where did your info on the tire OE come from? What review I did did not yield a factory recommended tire manufacturer.
BTW, My "SIX" came with XAS tube type tires.
Posted by: Tom_T Jun 11 2009, 12:17 PM
Tom:
Where did your info on the tire OE come from? What review I did did not yield a factory recommended tire manufacturer.
BTW, My "SIX" came with XAS tube type tires.
James,
True that they apparently didn't tell anyone that they spec'd a particular manufacturer, & it seems that they sourced from several during the 914's production run, as discussed below. As far as I know so far, none of the manufacturers produced a tire design specific to ANY model of the 914s, but they probably had a "favorite" tire type/mfgr. from their racing experience. That may have been the Dunlop SP 57 - because they supplied the 914-2L cars with those tires in 165HR15 size/speed-rating to both R&T & MT for their early 1973 CY road tests of that then "new model", & Porsche|Audi (VW USA) would've wanted to "put their best foot forward" to get the best press!
All of the USA imported 914/6s (such as yours) were from the 1970 & 71 MYs as I understand it, & therefore did have the "older style" tube-type tires & rims/wheels, which would have had "plain" wheels size markings such as: 5-1/2x15, 4-1/2x15, 6x15 etc. - with no letter designator after the rim width. They also would not have had the 1973-76 MY self-centering front hubs/disks with the raised lip at the center - fitting into the indent on the back of the alloy around the center hole in the pic in my prior post (unless changed later), but the 914/6 may have been a completely different front hub/disk as I understood.
The same would be true for the 1970-72 914/4s. Although, they may have done the switch to some late MY 72 cars, as they did to carry-over older parts into early-1973 MY 914s, such as with my early-73 914-2.0/914S having the "new-style" front brake calipers with 2 bleeders, while the rears are the "old-style" with just one bleeder. Maybe other 1972 914/4 owners can speak to their front hubs/disks on this matter?
The switch to tubeless tires was in model year 1973, during 1972 - when Porcshe/VW switched to the rims & alloy wheels marked with the "J" designator - e.g.: the "5-1/2Jx15" on the pic of the back of the Fuchs 2L Alloy in my post above (there may have also been some 1972 models with these rims later in that MY).
My OE tire & wheel info came from extensive research online (here, rennlist/914 SIG, etc., etc.), as well as in reviews in 1972-74 Road & Track, Motor Trend, etc. road tests of the 1973 914 & 914-2.0, tire tests/ratings & period ads, etc. Most of those sources referenced the Dunlop SP57 in the appropriate 155SR15 or 165HR15 as the OE tire for the 914-1.7L or 914-2.0L respectively. They'd also referenced less often that Continentals & Michelins were variously delivered on 914s of that era, & I've know other 914 new 914 buyers who got them in CA with Semperits as well (maybe dealer substitues?).
I know that my own early-73 914-2.0 was delivered to the original/PO on 11/9/72 in CA, with Semperits (M401s) mounted on Rivieras - the latter of which was NOT proper OE fitment to my chagrin - esp. at their replacement cost & difficulty today! However, they may have been part of the dealer scam which took my 2L Alloys as discussed in prior posts, since Semperit M401s & M266s were readily available here in SoCal during the 1970s, & they were less expensive than the Dunlops & Michelins, etc. - but generally performed as well or better than the others - both according to the period tire tests/ratings, ads & IMHO!
TIRE FITMENT FOR 914-1.7 & "914S" (914-2.0) FROM EARLY-1973 MY PORSCHE|AUDI SALES BROCHURE
LOW RES PIC OF COVER OF EARLY-1973 MY ABOVE PORSCHE|AUDI "PORSCHE 914" SALES BROCHURE - FOR REFERENCE OF ABOVE SPECS
SEE NEXT 2 POSTS FOR THE MT & R&T ROAD TEST SPECS WITH OE TIRE INFO.....
Posted by: Tom_T Jun 11 2009, 12:20 PM
"914/S" (914-2.0/"914S") TIRE FITMENT AT SPECS FROM 2/73 R&T ROAD TEST ARTICLE
...see MT 1/73 at next post....
Posted by: Tom_T Jun 11 2009, 12:21 PM
"914S" (914-2.0) TIRE FITMENT AT SPECS FROM 1/73 MT ROAD TEST ARTICLE
Hope this helps!
Posted by: Porsche Rescue Jun 11 2009, 12:47 PM
I always thought the "J" designation was not necessarily an indicator of a "tubeless" wheel, but rather a rim design which attempted to prevent a tire from coming off the wheel in case of an extreme failure. This would be more necessary with a tubeless tire I suppose. My memory is clouded by 39 years, but I thought sure my new '70 had tubeless tires. Since US cars had them in '57 (I worked in a service station then) I am surprised that the Germans waited until '73.
Posted by: Tom_T Jun 11 2009, 01:06 PM
I always thought the "J" designation was not necessarily an indicator of a "tubeless" wheel, but rather a rim design which attempted to prevent a tire from coming off the wheel in case of an extreme failure. This would be more necessary with a tubeless tire I suppose. My memory is clouded by 39 years, but I thought sure my new '70 had tubeless tires. Since US cars had them in '57 (I worked in a service station then) I am surprised that the Germans waited until '73.
You're right on with the "J" rim design & purpose was to go to tubeless without the risk of slow/continuous &/or instant deflation without the tubes inside!
Das German tardiness vus due to das German cranky engineers I zuppose!
I was also told back in the 1970's that the tubes could get pinched & punctured more easily with those "J" rims, & that I'd need to switch wheels to use the tube-type tires on my 914.
Can anyone confirm that, cuz it would affect whether I can even use the XAS on the Fuchs 2L Alloys????
I remember that my uncle's 58 vette had tubeless too, back in 63! ...one "old fart" to another!
Posted by: orange914 Jun 11 2009, 03:13 PM
i know these "westerns" are aftermarket, (15x5.5) but i've seen these more often than not on early 73's like mine. this group mentioned are the first 1000 + - sent over to fill sales, origanally slated for europe. i'm thinking the dealer put them on a majority of them???
That may be a partial urban myth on the first 1000+/- 2Ls....I don't see how they could have sent Euro 914-2Ls over here - unless they changed engines in the factory,
mine as all the others where origanally 1.7 as far as i can tell. like many 914's they have been converted to 2.0's or sixes.
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=61696&hl=
mike
Posted by: Tom_T Jun 11 2009, 04:33 PM
EDITED - DELETE
Posted by: Tom_T Jun 11 2009, 06:15 PM
If James is correct in his post above it would seem the Vredestein would be the appropriate tire for me @ Concours. They have a 165HR15 & would appear to be period correct.
James, you are aware though that the Michelin XAS is a tubed tire & will not fit onto a Mahle or a Fuchs? The only tubeless Michelin available is the XZX, @ $131.00/per (Coker), & SR rated. Also, my Kardex says I have to have HR tires so there is documentation that says what tires the car came w/ besides the tank sticker. To preserve a car properly would involve not only the right size but the right rating.
I've chosen to go w/ the OEM gambit- "Dunlop SP 57" 165HR15 was my original tire. "Dunlop SP Sport A2+" 195/65HR15 is what she'll have in Charolette. Both are HR rated & both are the "SP" model from Dunlop. I am planning on bringing my Kardex, Bill of Sale & COA to Charolette, as required? Should I bring my old "SP57" as well?
I would also presume from James's posting that the Kuhmo 165/80HR15 available from "The Tire Rack" @ $32.00/per is the best choice for every CW except those in preservation, because Kuhmo was not around in 1976.
BTW- sick as a dog... summertime flu has got me again. I can go outside in shorts & a T shirt in winter & not get sick. In & out of AC into the Southern heat is murder on my body.
So Johhny B - out of curiosity, how did the judges react to your Dunlop SP Sport A2+ 195/65HR15 at the Charlotte show & those since summer 2007 ????
Posted by: Jasfsmith Jun 12 2009, 07:45 AM
If James is correct in his post above it would seem the Vredestein would be the appropriate tire for me @ Concours. They have a 165HR15 & would appear to be period correct.
James, you are aware though that the Michelin XAS is a tubed tire & will not fit onto a Mahle or a Fuchs? The only tubeless Michelin available is the XZX, @ $131.00/per (Coker), & SR rated. Also, my Kardex says I have to have HR tires so there is documentation that says what tires the car came w/ besides the tank sticker. To preserve a car properly would involve not only the right size but the right rating.
I've chosen to go w/ the OEM gambit- "Dunlop SP 57" 165HR15 was my original tire. "Dunlop SP Sport A2+" 195/65HR15 is what she'll have in Charolette. Both are HR rated & both are the "SP" model from Dunlop. I am planning on bringing my Kardex, Bill of Sale & COA to Charolette, as required? Should I bring my old "SP57" as well?
I would also presume from James's posting that the Kuhmo 165/80HR15 available from "The Tire Rack" @ $32.00/per is the best choice for every CW except those in preservation, because Kuhmo was not around in 1976.
BTW- sick as a dog... summertime flu has got me again. I can go outside in shorts & a T shirt in winter & not get sick. In & out of AC into the Southern heat is murder on my body.
So Johhny B - out of curiosity, how did the judges react to your Dunlop SP Sport A2+ 195/65HR15 at the Charlotte show & those since summer 2007 ????
I have XAS's mounted on my "SIX's" Mahle's and they perform just fine.
In regards to the Dunlop SP Sport A2+" 195/65HR15, it is the profile that would get you dinged as it does not conform to the OEM specs. A nice tyre otherwise.
Posted by: Jasfsmith Jun 12 2009, 08:30 AM
True that they apparently didn't tell anyone that they spec'd a particular manufacturer, & it seems that they sourced from several during the 914's production run, as discussed below. As far as I know so far, none of the manufacturers produced a tire design specific to ANY model of the 914s, but they probably had a "favorite" tire type/mfgr. from their racing experience. That may have been the Dunlop SP 57 - because they supplied the 914-2L cars with those tires in 165HR15 size/speed-rating to both R&T & MT for their early 1973 CY road tests of that then "new model", & Porsche|Audi (VW USA) would've wanted to "put their best foot forward" to get the best press!
All of the USA imported 914/6s (such as yours) were from the 1970 & 71 MYs as I understand it, & therefore did have the "older style" tube-type tires & rims/wheels, which would have had "plain" wheels size markings such as: 5-1/2x15, 4-1/2x15, 6x15 etc. - with no letter designator after the rim width. They also would not have had the 1973-76 MY self-centering front hubs/disks with the raised lip at the center - fitting into the indent on the back of the alloy around the center hole in the pic in my prior post (unless changed later), but the 914/6 may have been a completely different front hub/disk as I understood.
The switch to tubeless tires was in model year 1973, during 1972 - when Porcshe/VW switched to the rims & alloy wheels marked with the "J" designator - e.g.: the "5-1/2Jx15" on the pic of the back of the Fuchs 2L Alloy in my post above (there may have also been some 1972 models with these rims later in that MY).
I suspect that the tire manufacturer delection was more a function of cost rather than from ""favorite" tire type/mfgr. from their racing experience".
I belive that all wheels offerd by Porsche were "J" designated (at least per their parts manual). The use of a tube was more the tyre manufacturer's tyre design choice.
My point in regards to the Concours discussion, authentication on what tyre is correct for show presentation can only be determined by a COA (which I've yet to see one that lists the tyre manufacturer, and we know the questionable accuracy of COA's) and what Porsche factory documentation that was delivered with the car (i.e. Onwer's manual, affixed car labels/stickers). Thus my statment that correct tyre is one where the manufacturer/tire design (tread pattern)/profile (size and speed rating) that was available during the MY production.
Posted by: Jasfsmith Jun 12 2009, 08:38 AM
mine as all the others where origanally 1.7 as far as i can tell. like many 914's they have been converted to 2.0's or sixes.
mike
I must have missed something in my readings. I thought that the bodies were produced by Karman Coach Works and delivered to either VW or Porsche for final trime fitment and running gear installation. No 6's were ever produced at the VW factory, and only a number of 4's after Porsche obtained the final rights to the design ever were seen a the Porsche factory.
Am I wrong?
Posted by: Tom_T Jun 12 2009, 01:55 PM
So Johhny B - out of curiosity, how did the judges react to your Dunlop SP Sport A2+ 195/65HR15 at the Charlotte show & those since summer 2007 ????
I have XAS's mounted on my "SIX's" Mahle's and they perform just fine.
In regards to the Dunlop SP Sport A2+" 195/65HR15, it is the profile that would get you dinged as it does not conform to the OEM specs. A nice tyre otherwise.
BTW All Y'all -
(that's plural for Y'all
)Even that Dunlop SP is now NLA! The only 2 tires close to a swap/upsize fitment for 914 wheels available today from Dunlop (nee Goodyear brand) are these two 195/65HR15s at the links below - & they're NOT OE "Dunlop SP 57":
Branded as "SP 5000" but a "wild & crazy kinda..." tread pattern:
http://www.dunloptires.com/dunlop/display_tire.jsp?prodline=SP+Sport+5000&mrktarea=Performance&treadwidth=195&aspectratio=65&rimdiameter=15&sidewall=BSL&prodID=26503856500000&zipCode=
More "conventional Tread Pattern, but not branded as "SP":
http://www.dunloptires.com/dunlop/display_tire.jsp?prodline=Signature&mrktarea=Passenger&treadwidth=195&aspectratio=65&rimdiameter=15&sidewall=BSW&prodID=26600216600000&zipCode=
I've found nobody yet which carries the Michelin XWX or XZX in a tubeless variety 165HR15, and their XAS is tube-type - as 1 of the only 2 period/OEM tire manufacturers out there.
The other - Pirelli CN36 is also tube-type & currently only available in the M485 Option size/rating of 185/70VR15 - although the Lucas Tires guy said they plan to reintroduce a 165HR15 to be mfgd in Ireland, & have moved the dies there earlier this year (2009).
This only leaves the Vredestein 165HR15 tubeless radial as the only correct size/rating/tubeless variety available today, & while they were in business mfg tires in the Netherlands during the 1970s, they apparently weren't supplying tires to the factory for the 914s & it's unclear if they did so in the OE 1973my Spec'd. 155SR15 &/or 165HR15 tubeless radials for the 1970's aftermarket.
The 1970's Tire Manufacturers of the day that manufactured either OE* &/or aftermarket tires for the 914s which I recall were:
Dunlop*
Michelin* & *** & (**?)
Continental*
Semperit (*?)
Cooper (*?)
Kleber (a Michelin subsidiary - *?)
Pirelli (*?) & (***?) & ***(only w/-185/70VR15 @ M485 Option)
Other 1970's Tire Manufacturers of the day that manufactured some aftermarket tires for the 914s that may or MAY NOT be CW acceptable which I recall were:
Vredestein** (not sure if proper size/rating offered back then?)
Bridgestone
Firestone
Goodyear
Sears (various contract suppliers, incl. the latter 2 above)
others...?
* ------- Known OE 914 Tire Supplier
(*?) ---- Possible OE 914 Tire Supplier
(?) ------ Possible Aftermarket 914 Sizes Tire Supplier in 1970s
** ------ Currently Supplier of 165HR15 &/or 155SR15 Tubeless Radials per OE Spec (1973 & ??)
(**?) --- Possible Current Supplier of 165HR15 &/or 155SR15 Tubeless Radials per OE Spec (1973 & ??)
*** ----- Currently Supplier of 165HR15 &/or 155SR15 Tube-type Radials per OE Spec (not sure which MYs)
(***?) -- Possible Current Supplier of 165HR15 &/or 155SR15 Tube-type Radials per OE Spec (NOT proper spec where Tubeless were OE (not sure which MYs)
>>>>>> If not noted, then they probably only now offer 195x15 &/or other suitable but non-OE sizes.
> Note that Porsche|Audi's early-1973 MY 914 Sales Brochure's Specs on the 4th pg. which I posted earlier in this thread a few up - Specifies either 155SR15 Tubeless (914 with 1.7L) & 165HR15 Tubeless (914S with 2.0L).
I do not have the comparable sales brochures for the other MYs, so others will need to step in & clarify Tube or Tubeless for each MY. OTHERS OUT THERE PLEASE FEEL FREE TO CLARIFY &/OR ADD TO THE ABOVE LIST!Posted by: Tom_T Jun 12 2009, 02:43 PM
I suspect that the tire manufacturer delection was more a function of cost rather than from ""favorite" tire type/mfgr. from their racing experience".
I belive that all wheels offerd by Porsche were "J" designated (at least per their parts manual). The use of a tube was more the tyre manufacturer's tyre design choice.
My point in regards to the Concours discussion, authentication on what tyre is correct for show presentation can only be determined by a COA (which I've yet to see one that lists the tyre manufacturer, and we know the questionable accuracy of COA's) and what Porsche factory documentation that was delivered with the car (i.e. Onwer's manual, affixed car labels/stickers). Thus my statment that correct tyre is one where the manufacturer/tire design (tread pattern)/profile (size and speed rating) that was available during the MY production.
True again, Porsche &/or VW selected from several manufacturers based upon availability & whatever bulk deal they negotiated with the various suppliers, which I know at least included Dunlop, Michelin & Continental, as well as possibly others such as Semperit, Pirelli, Cooper, etc.
My point was that the Dunlop SP 57 was supplied for the press coverage road tests, so that may have been the one which they felt performed best as of early 1973 on their "new" 914S/914-2.0 as noted in the R&T & MT Road Test Articles' pix which I'd posted above!? However, it also could have just been happen-stance, as you noted.
With regards to "J" wheels - what I've read that they were new for the 914/4s in the 1973 MY - corresponding to the use of Tubeless Radials (instead of tube-type as in prior MYs). The 914-6s may have been a different matter, since they utilized the 5-Lug Porsche wheels, and you 6ers would know more about that aspect than I!
As to the COA - they're a joke for many 914s, & useless in this matter because tires wouldn't be covered - except if a particular Optional Tire/Wheel fitment were listed! ...then it's an easy answer as to what should be on their 914!!! ...IF they can find those wheels & Tires today?????
As to Factory/Marketing Arm Documentation which you referenced for CW documentation at shows - the PORSCHE|AUDI arm of VW USA was the marketing arm here in the USA for 1969-1977 when 914s of the 1970-1976 MY were sold. It was in that spirit, specifically & only for the "early" 1973 MY 914s, that I had posted the 4 pg. PORSCHE|AUDI 914 Sales Brochure, on which the 4th pg. Specs.specifically state that Tubeless tires & "J" wheels were the appropriate Factory OE fitment for that 1st half of the 73MY. I'll admit to the possibility that it could have changed in the 2nd half when the 914S nomenclature was changed to 914 2.0, but I have no documentation on that part of the 73MY - nor on the other MYs.
http://members.rennlist.com/914_collectibles/Brochures.htm
I do have in my possession - an actual hard copy of the bigger/longer 12pg. version of that early-1973 MY PORSCHE|AUDI 914 sales brochure available at their dealers, which has the same front cover & back cover with the Spec. Sheet, as well as all of the information of the 4 pg. one (albeit in a different layout) - as well as additional information & pix. That 12 pg. brochure is also available at the 914 SIG webpage below, but the 4 pg. one has more legible pages linked thereto. I've supplied Jeff Bowlsby with better pix of my 12 pg. brochure, which I'm sure he'll post there too/instead, when he gets a chance.
Below is posted a detailed pic form my 12 pg. Brochure which clearly states the wheel & tire fitment as Factory OE for both the 914 (1.7L) & 914S (2.0L) Models of the early-1973 MY. Additionally, the bottom of both the 4 pg. & 12 pg. Specs. have the disclaimer that they can change the specs. at any time without notice.
THE EARLY-1973 914 BROCHURE'S SPEC. BELOW -I WOULD SAY THAT THE ONLY TOTALLY CORRECT TIRE FOR 914S OF THAT PERIOD WAS TUBELESS:
Detail from my 12 pg. Brochure's Specs. on Wheels & Tires:
Low Rez Front & Back Covers of 12 pg. Brochure from Web Link above:
Given the above, IMHO - I again say that the more appropriate course for PCA et al's CW scoring would be to rate the Tire aspect based upon the maximum number of attributes for a particular model & year garner the best point score in the Wheels & Tires category (but then, I'm not a member).
IMHO -it would seem an appropriate course of action for those whose 914s Spec'd. Tubeless tires, that they contact Vredestein to see if they can get a letter confirming that they either supplied OES tires to Porsche/VW for the 914s, &/or if they had available in 1970s aftermarket (non-OES) Tubeless Radial Tires in the 914's OE spec'd. size (e.g.: 165HR15 or 155SR15).
Posted by: Tom_T Jun 12 2009, 02:49 PM
EDITED - DELETE
Posted by: Porsche Rescue Jun 12 2009, 03:02 PM
The Michelin 165SR15 XZX sold by Coker at a mere $169 is a tubless tire.
http://store.coker.com/search.php?mode=search&by_title=Y&by_shortdescr=Y&by_fulldescr=Y&substring=165SR15
For those who need H rated 165's they have the XAS tube type at $240 and the Vredestein at $105. Apparently neither of these are "perfect" for 914 2.0's.
http://store.coker.com/search.php?mode=search&by_title=Y&by_shortdescr=Y&by_fulldescr=Y&substring=165HR15
The S rated XZX should meet even the most discriminating judge's standards for a 1.7 with the optional 5.5" wheels or a 1.8.
Posted by: Tom_T Jun 12 2009, 03:11 PM
The Michelin 165SR15 XZX sold by Coker at a mere $169 is a tubless tire.
http://store.coker.com/search.php?mode=search&by_title=Y&by_shortdescr=Y&by_fulldescr=Y&substring=165SR15
For those who need H rated 165's they have the XAS tube type at $240 and the Vredestein at $105. Apparently neither of these are "perfect" for 914 2.0's.
http://store.coker.com/search.php?mode=search&by_title=Y&by_shortdescr=Y&by_fulldescr=Y&substring=165HR15
The S rated XZX should meet even the most discriminating judge's standards for a 1.7 with the optional 5.5" wheels or a 1.8.
Jim - the problem with that tire is that it's SR rated - not the HR spec. for 2L 914/4s - ergo I didn't include it, because it's not the correct tire for 914-2.0/914S models, but it's probably an acceptable "upgrade" for 914-1.7L cars - but I do not know how CW would rate points for it???
Posted by: Porsche Rescue Jun 12 2009, 03:14 PM
You mean it is an "upgrade" because it is tubeless? I am still not convinced that all 914-4's did not come with tubless tires as OE. I realize the 2.0's call for H's which is why I included the less than perfect options of the XAS and the Vredestein.
Posted by: Pat Garvey Jun 12 2009, 08:09 PM
You mean it is an "upgrade" because it is tubeless? I am still not convinced that all 914-4's did not come with tubless tires as OE. I realize the 2.0's call for H's which is why I included the less than perfect options of the XAS and the Vredestein.
Tom,
ALL early 914's came with tubes in the tires - ALL! Why? - I have no idea, because the wheels were set for tubeless. Fact is, if you have an early 914 (and I don't know when "early" ended), to be 100% purist you'll need to have tube type tires.
Most of you know my feelings on this, so you can easilly whip me at a hardcore concours. So be it.
Posted by: Tom_T Jun 13 2009, 03:50 PM
Tom,
ALL early 914's came with tubes in the tires - ALL! Why? - I have no idea, because the wheels were set for tubeless. Fact is, if you have an early 914 (and I don't know when "early" ended), to be 100% purist you'll need to have tube type tires.
Most of you know my feelings on this, so you can easilly whip me at a hardcore concours. So be it.
Pat -
I think that - between your known OE fitment as an original owner 72 914, & my documentation pretty well set the intended change-over point to Tubeless at the start of the 1973 MY - along with a set of other "refinements" to the 914s, as discussed below.
All -
The 2 marketing/sale brochures which I posted above should clearly indicate that as of the 1973 MY - Tubeless tires were the standard OE fitment on both the 1.7L & 2.0L models, and a Porsche|Audi document such as the 2 which I posted above should be incontrovertible proof to the "wankers" at PCA that they are the appropriate type of tire for the 1973 MY 914s - & probably for the following 1974-76 MYs as well.
Both the 1/73 Motor Trend & 2/73 Road & Track road tests/specs (specs ostensibly from Porsche/Audi/VW & observation on the company supplied test cars) also indicate "Dunlop" & "Dunlop SP57" tires (respectively) of the Tubeless type, thereby confirming the sales brochure's specs with 2 other independent sources. I believe that Journalism students are taught that just 1 confirmation is adequate, & I've provided 2 - 1973 "official" sales brochures with specs + 2 period magazine road test articles with specs. to confirm same.
I don't know what more I can do to "prove" to the skeptics & PCA's CW judges that the 155SR15 for 1.7L & 165HR15 for 2.0L - both in TUBELESS radial tires, is/are the proper OE fitment on the 1973 MY 914s!!??
Moreover, given that Pat's 914-1.7L is a later 1972 MY which WAS originally fitted with Tube-type tires, & a number of other things I've read said that 1973 MY was the changeover to Tubeless tires in conjunction with the "J" rims for same ---
tah-dah --- I think it's safe to say that the change from "early" tube-type to "late" tubeless tires was the 1973 MY, as documented with the early-73 sales brochure's specs. As quoted from the Porsche website on the 1973 1.7 & 2.0 Models, some of those changes were:"Modifications to the 1973 models included, for example, a 7 cm shorter rear skirt, continuous matt black bumpers and an improved gearshift mechanism, which had often been subject to criticism. For an additional charge a luxury package was also available to order, with the following features: velour carpets, sports steering wheel, central console with clock, oil thermometer and voltmeter, leather sleeve for the gear stick, two-tone horn, roll bar with vinyl covering and chrome surrounds. The sports package included alloy wheels, stabilisers on the front and rear axles and halogen headlights."
There are some possible "extra parts carry-over from pre-73 parts stocks" in some early-1973 cars built in 1972, so some could've still had the "early" non-"J" wheels with tubeless tires - I don't know? For example: the "1st 1000" +/- noted by Mike in Ceres, CA with the link to his thread have a variety of "carry-over 72 parts" on them as Porsche/VW used up their on-hand stock. Another example on 914s after the 1st 1000+/-, is my 73 2L - which was built 9/72 & has the "late" front disk brake calipers with 2 bleeder valves each, while the rear calipers are still the older 1 bleeder valve style, but it has "J" wheels & Tubeless tires.
Neither the COA nor window sticker will give that information - nor the make, nor even the fact that they were always Radials. So short of somebody coming up with another "official" Porsche &/or VW internal or spec. manual, there is no other "official" documentation to either controvert nor substantiate this marketing brochure's fitment spec.
I also have the Factory Tech Specs Book 1st Ed. dated 5/1/74 (xerox copy from AA - if anyone is interested), which lists the tire sizes/ratings as noted above - including the 165SR15 "optional upgrade" on 4.5x15 wheels for the 1.7L models. However, it is silent as to tube or tubeless, radial vs. bias ply, etc.
1972 MY owners: FYI - I also have an old xerox of the MT 5/72 Road Test Article on all 4 then available 72MY 911 (T, E, S) & 914 (1.7L) Porsches, which lists 155SR15 as the spec for the 914-1.7, but is likewise silent as to tube/tubeless or radial/other design.
As I suggested before -
- other owners out there should research their own MYs for the respective sales brochures, road test articles & other specs for their specific MY 914s 1970-72 & 1974-76 to add the same type of documentation for those model years - rather than debating it on an unsupported basis. Pat has provided his first hand knowledge on his 1972, & I on at least the early-1973 914s up to Jan-Feb/73 & to the end of the 73MY - unless someone else has documents to the contrary. So - come on guys & gals out there - get busy & research this online! Meanwhile, I'll wait for your replies with documentation to help the other MY 914 owners out there....
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Posted by: Tom_T Jun 13 2009, 04:43 PM
You mean it is an "upgrade" because it is tubeless? I am still not convinced that all 914-4's did not come with tubless tires as OE. I realize the 2.0's call for H's which is why I included the less than perfect options of the XAS and the Vredestein.
No Jim, the tube or tubeless depended upon the OE tire fitment originally on the particular year & model, as per Pat & my posts above.
I just meant that the 165SR15 was an "Factory Option" upgrade available for 1.7L & 1.8L 914s - on either the stock 4.5x15 &/or "later stock" 5.5x15 steelies, &/or on optional 4-Lug 5.5x15 Steelie, Chromie, Mahle, Pedrini or Fuchs 2L Alloys - as appropriate to the car's MY; which I've read in documents & articles, etc.
The SR speed rating was used on the 1.7 & 1.8 engined models, because they had a lower top speed which fit within the SR's 112 mph "cap", while the 2L's 115 mph spec top speed exceeded that for the SR - & the 118 mph "T" rating was not around back then - so it was spec'd with the 165HR15 with HR's 130 mph "cap" - as shown on my gas tank tire tag pic below:
Vredestein offers both a 155SR15 & 165SR15 for 914-1.7s & 1.8s, & a 165HR15 appropriate for the 914-2.0 - & all are in the tubeless "flavor" of radials, which won't be OE fitment for early" 914s spec'd with tube-type tires (Michelin XAS, tube-types are most appropriate for those & your 1972 1.7L).
See these Vredestein pdf spec sheet links:
165SR15 "Sprint+" Tubeless Radials: (1.7/1.8 optional upgrade size/rating)
http://www.vredestein.com/file_banden/2006/Tyre%20cards/2007/Engels/Tyre%20Cards%20GB%20Sprint+.pdf?UserSessionID=85063899
165HR15 "Classic Sprint" Tubeless Radials: (both 1.7/1.8 base & optional + 2L OE spec sizes/ratings)
http://www.vredestein.com/file_banden/2006/Tyre%20cards/2007/Engels/Tyre%20Cards%20GB%20Sprint%20Classic.pdf?UserSessionID=85063899
Vredestein's overall Classic Tire Specs & Info. Brochure:
http://www.vredestein.com/file_banden/2006/CLASSIC%20FOLDER%202007%20EN.pdf?UserSessionID=85063899
As your prior post on the Michelins correctly stated - the XZX & XAS leave something off spec. for the 914-2.0Ls, since the former is the wrong SR speed rating but is tubeless, while the latter is the proper 165HR15 but is tube-type.
It would seem to be prudent to try to establish Vredestein as a proper period tire manufacturer offering either OE &/or aftermarket tires of tube &/or tubeless design in the appropriate 155SR15, 165SR15 &/or 165HR15 sizes as OE spec'd. for the 914s - and perhaps for some of the various M-Options, 914/6, etc. tire fitments. I'll see if I can query them online for this & will report back any answers from same later.
Given the above specs for the Vredesteins, I think that maybe even Pat Garvey could accede to them being safe & very drivable tires on the 914s, but he may still prefer the handling of the newer & wider low profile 195s, etc.!!
Posted by: Tom_T Jun 13 2009, 05:12 PM
Okay - - I just posted this query at the Vredestein website's contact page below:
http://www.vredestein.com/Contact_Contactformulier.asp
<snipped>
Dear Sirs/Ladies:
I understand that Vredestein has been in the tire business since 1946, but am not sure whether or not they supplied automobile tires during the 1970s, if so - whether supplied here in the USA or only to Europe/non-USA, and whether their period offerings included tires appropriate to the various Porsche/VW-Porsche 914 models produced & sold between 1969-1977.
Can you please verify if Vredestein supplied either OE &/or Aftermarket Tires during the 1970's (OE - 1969-1977) for the Porsche (USA) &/or Porsche/VW (Europe & World) model 914 cars? If so, can uyou please provide documentation on such, and on which sizes & types were available during that period, such as: 155SR15, 165SR15, 165HR15, 175/70VR15, etc.; whether they were tube &/or tubeless, radial &/or other designs; as well as where (e.g.: Europe, USA, etc.) & during which years such were available (if any).
We are trying to establish that Vredestein's current "Sprint+" &/or "Classic Sprint" tires are acceptable current offerings of an acceptable OE &/or period manufacturer of tires for these cars, for the various Porsche concours shows.
Documentation on official Vredestein company letterhead &/or period advertisements, brochures & spec. sheets would be most helpful to 914 owners in this regard - if you can supply such documents with a cover letter.
Thank You.
Sincerely,
Tom Trischler
owner: 1973 Porsche 914-2.0 (USA/Calif.)
<end snip>
We'll have to wait & see if this gets us anywhere!
Posted by: Tom_T Jun 13 2009, 07:39 PM
Okay folks - I'm looking at the following "official" 914 Marketing brochures at Jeff Bownslby's webpage link below:
http://members.rennlist.com/914_collectibles/Brochures.htm
It would appear from this, that in the USA at least, there was perhaps a CHOICE of tube or tubeless tires on 914s between 1970-1972 MY, per these:
1970 MY Spec. Sheets:
http://members.rennlist.com/914_collectibles/zBro_70USA1-04.jpg
http://members.rennlist.com/914_collectibles/zBro_70USA2-06.jpg
http://members.rennlist.com/914_collectibles/zBro_70USA3-18.jpg
1971 MY Spec. Sheets:
> These are very hard to read the Specs on this MY. If anyone has a more legible 1971 MY Spec sheet, please post it or a link thereto here!
http://members.rennlist.com/914_collectibles/zBro_71USA1-14.jpg
http://members.rennlist.com/914_collectibles/zBro_71USA2-06.jpg
1972 MY Spec. Sheets:
- Pat, these appear to Spec tubeless for 1972 MY? ...could yours have been tubeless due to the chrome wheels which you got??
http://members.rennlist.com/914_collectibles/zBro_72USA1-02.jpg
http://members.rennlist.com/914_collectibles/zBro_72USA2-12.jpg
http://members.rennlist.com/914_collectibles/zBro_72C1-04.jpg
1973 MY Spec. Sheets:
as I had previously posted those links/pages above
http://members.rennlist.com/914_collectibles/zBro_73USA1-04.jpg
http://members.rennlist.com/914_collectibles/zBro_73USA2-12.jpg
1974 MY Spec. Sheets:
http://members.rennlist.com/914_collectibles/zBro_74USA1-04.jpg
http://members.rennlist.com/914_collectibles/zBro_74USA2-21.JPG
http://members.rennlist.com/914_collectibles/zBro_74USA2-22.JPG
1975 MY Spec. Sheets:
http://members.rennlist.com/914_collectibles/zBro_75USA1-04.jpg
http://members.rennlist.com/914_collectibles/zBro_75USA2-21.jpg
http://members.rennlist.com/914_collectibles/zBro_75USA2-22.jpg
1976 MY Spec. Sheets:
http://members.rennlist.com/914_collectibles/zBro_76USA1-04.jpg
http://members.rennlist.com/914_collectibles/zBro_76USA2-20.jpg
http://members.rennlist.com/914_collectibles/zBro_76USA2-21.jpg
Based upon the above specs for USA 914s, it would appear that the "stock" or "base level" tire & wheel fitment for the 1970-76 914s were as follows:
1970:
1.7L --- 4.5Jx15 Steel Wheels with 155SR15 Tubeless Tires
914/6 - 5.5Jx15 Steel Wheels with 165HR15 Tires with Tubes
...........Alloys were an option at extra cost on both the 1.7 & 6
1971: - this one is hardly legible, but appears to be the same as the prior 1970 MY's Specs??
1.7L --- 4.5Jx15 Steel Wheels with 155SR15 Tubeless Tires
914/6 - 5.5Jx15 Steel Wheels with 165HR15 Tires with Tubes
...........Alloys were an option at extra cost on both the 1.7 & 6
1972:
1.7L - 4.5Jx15 Steel Wheels with 155SR15 Tubeless Tires
...........Alloys were an option at extra cost
1973:
1.7L - 4.5Jx15 Steel Wheels with 155SR15 Tubeless Tires
2.0L - 5.5Jx15 Special (Fuchs 2L Style) Forged Light Alloy Wheels*
...........Alloys were an option at extra cost on the 1.7 & standard on the 2.0
* Note that 1973 MY was the only one where the Fuchs 2L Alloys, as a part of the Appearance Group & Performance Group Option Sets, all of which were included in that MY's 2L base price as "standard" or "included" options - per the following brochure page links. Starting in the 1974 to 1976 MYs, these were part or all made "options at additional cost," as noted in each year's brochure specs. &/or text.
http://members.rennlist.com/914_collectibles/zBro_73USA1-03.jpg
http://members.rennlist.com/914_collectibles/zBro_73USA2-11.jpg
1974:
1.8L - 5.5Jx15 Special (Mag-Look) Steel Wheels with 165SR15 Tubeless Tires
2.0L - 5.5Jx15 Special (Mag-Look) Steel Wheels with 165HR15 Tubeless Tires
...........Alloys were an option at extra cost on both the 1.8 & 2.0
1975:
1.8L - 5.5Jx15 Special (Mag-Look) Steel Wheels with 165SR15 Tubeless Tires
2.0L - 5.5Jx15 Special (Mag-Look) Steel Wheels with 165HR15 Tubeless Tires
...........Alloys were an option at extra cost on both the 1.8 & 2.0
1976:
2.0L - 5.5Jx15 Special (Mag-Look) Steel Wheels with 165HR15 Tubeless Tires
...........Alloys were an option at extra cost on the 2.0
NOTE: For those who had a different fitment from the above & at these Porsche+Audi sales brochures' info., of the standard/base level wheels &/or tires on your 914s when new, was either the result of: a particular option of wheels &/or tires fitted to the car, Factory substitutions based upon tire availability at the time of production of your particular car, &/or due to the dealer shenanigans in swapping &/or outright stealing of the proper wheels/tires for the car, etc.
As I understand how PCA et al look at the "proper wheel & tire fitment" for a particular car, it should conform to either the above standard/base level fitments - unless the Munroney Window Sticker, Dealer Bill of Sale, COA &/or other documentation can prove otherwise, in which case that is the proper wheel/tire fitment under the CW rules.
-- Please correct me if I'm wrong Pat & other CWs!
Again - the sales brochures & marketing documents at this web link below are EXCELLENT resources for the OE fitment & period/MY options & accessories available for the 1970-76 914s!!!! Look at them if you haven't already!
Disbelieve if you wish - but look at these & other "official" documentation before you challenge these authentic PORSCHE+AUDI documents - & NO MORE "shooting of the messenger" PLEEZ!! 
So now the rest of you 1970-72 & 1974-76 MY 914 owners can do the more detailed research, since I've given you a start here!
Posted by: Porsche Rescue Jun 13 2009, 07:48 PM
So, it appears an early 4 (MY '70) had 4.5"J wheels with 155SR tubeless tires as my 5/70 production car does. And sixes had H tires with tubes.
I again argue that for any four the Michelin XZX tubeless 165SR is the best and closest option (no 155 available in Michelin XZX). And for cars with 5.5" factory wheels the 165 was correct.
The first optional alloys were 5.5 Pedrinis on the four, for sure available on '71 model year cars. Don't think they existed for '70 and I know they didn't in June '70 when I bought a car and had dealer installed chrome wheels. If factory chrome or alloy had been available I would have ordered them. Rivieras were the first alloy's to be seen on the earliest 914's.
Posted by: Tom_T Jun 13 2009, 09:12 PM
So, it appears an early 4 (MY '70) had 4.5"J wheels with 155SR tubeless tires as my 5/70 production car does. And sixes had H tires with tubes.
I again argue that for any four the Michelin XZX tubeless 165SR is the best and closest option (no 155 available in Michelin XZX). And for cars with 5.5" factory wheels the 165 was correct.
The first optional alloys were 5.5 Pedrinis on the four, for sure available on '71 model year cars. Don't think they existed for '70 and I know they didn't in June '70 when I bought a car and had dealer installed chrome wheels. If factory chrome or alloy had been available I would have ordered them. Rivieras were the first alloy's to be seen on the earliest 914's.
Jim, I agree - unless Vredestein comes back with good news on their 1970s tire production series - in which case they can hit dead-on for each of the 914/4 & 6 tires listed in the spec'd tubeless flavor, & do so at far less cost.
Of course the XZXs can do so too for the 1.7Ls & 1.8Ls -but not for the 2.0Ls out there. I had/have some 1983 era Kleber V10s in the wrong speed rating of 165SR15, because they didn't have an HR back then either, & Michelins, Dunlops, etc. were only available by then in VERY pricey 165VR15 at the time!!!!
The Vredestein 165HR15 tubeless is the only correct configuration for the 2Ls, while Michelin offers the proper size/rating 165HR15 in tube-type - which may offer mounting/tube-pinching problems as I've noted before, as well as tubes being incorrect configuration for the 2Ls. Ergo - it is an unfair lose-lose proposition for us with the 2Ls, unless Vredestein can be proven as an available 1970's tire in that size/rating/type.
Maybe Vredestein will come back with good news for everybody's sake!?
So..........the search goes on for me as a 2L owner/restorer!
As for the 70MY Alloys - you might also check around online, because I seem to recall from somewhere (sorry - no links for this at a hand), that the 4-Lug Pedrini's were available at some point for that first 1970MY, although it could've been only in limited numbers & areas? The early 914/4s looked really sharp with them on, but I don't know how the CW judging works if the wheel was available but is not on your COA/Sticker/BoS or something????
Maybe check around at the sub-headings of Bowlsby's site to see if it's referenced there? see: http://members.rennlist.com/914_collectibles/
Posted by: Porsche Rescue Jun 14 2009, 08:36 AM
Pedrinis on a two-owner '71 with 20 year old Michelin 165's. I bought it in '02 and drove it from Chicago to Portland, OR. The seller had two of the tires dismounted and "inspected" at a tire shop. Risky trip as I think back on it, snow in Wyoming and 80 mph across Nebraska, but I made it ok. When I sold it a year later the buyer (a senior woman!) flew to Portland and drove it to Maine on the same tires with no tire problems. She might have been Irish!
Posted by: Pat Garvey Jun 14 2009, 07:49 PM
OK......
All this talk about Vredestiens bothers me (but that's just me). I can't swear to Canada or the rest od the world, but I have NEVER seen a Vredestein tire mounted to (as orginal) a US 914. Never!
Now, I'm not 100% perfect in all of my recollections, but I'm pretty good.
So....someone show me a window sticker of a US 914 with these tires. All it takes is one & I'll believe, but it must be a US delivery 914.
Show me!
Pat
Posted by: Porsche Rescue Jun 14 2009, 08:04 PM
I don't think anyone is contending Vredesteins were OE on a 914. But possibly they were available in the '70's and "might" pass as acceptable in a judging. Again, I think the Michelin XZX would do better, especially on a four which came with S rated tires. And it would be the best available on a 2.0 which came with H's. It seems definite that the "perfect" OE tire is NLA.
Posted by: Jasfsmith Jun 15 2009, 08:22 AM
Tom:
Great work on organizing the above material, however I still challenge the "authentication" of the marketing material. They are just that "marketing material". (I guess my poor impression of marketing people is showing. They'll tell you anything to get you to buy something. <grin>).
I agree that every CW entrant should do research on their specific car and assemble any data possible to sustain their position on the originality, as well as ownership and maintenance records, into a presentable book should the time come where such info is necessary to prove to a judge a particular point. I have one primarily to show the few differences between a US spec and my Euro spec 914-6 (and it has helped).
Overall, however, I think your missing the point. I think that it would be asking a bit much to expect judges to know the specific tyre manufacturer (yet alone whether it should be tube-type or tubeless) of a particular model year 914. Knowledge of the correct wheel type/size and tyre profile/size would be expected at a top notch judging. We should be so lucky to get judges that have that knowledge.
Just for giggles, look at the factory parts and workshop manuals. They provide a complete list of wheels available (sorry, no chromies for the 4 cyl 914, wish they did as they look great), and tyre sizes recommended.
No, I'm not "shooting of the messenger". Just trying to bug the moderator with the length of this discussion. <grin>
Posted by: Tom_T Jun 15 2009, 05:50 PM
EDITED - DELETE
Posted by: Tom_T Jun 15 2009, 06:34 PM
OK......
All this talk about Vredestiens bothers me (but that's just me). I can't swear to Canada or the rest od the world, but I have NEVER seen a Vredestein tire mounted to (as orginal) a US 914. Never!
Now, I'm not 100% perfect in all of my recollections, but I'm pretty good.
So....someone show me a window sticker of a US 914 with these tires. All it takes is one & I'll believe, but it must be a US delivery 914.
Show me!
Pat
NO SUCH THING - every Munroney Window Sticker which I've erver seen, at best - only gives the tire size/rating - period!
What about 1969-77 USA ads for Vredesteins of the proper tires from period publications??? ...would that "CW qualify" them for judging??
So Pat - for my indubitably un-CW knowledge (still learning here) - then the CW show judges would still ding the 914-2.0s for Vredesteins (at least at the higher level shows) - even if they were available outside of the USA? ...& even if they were available aftermarket but NOT an OE tire for US 914s??
Heck - if I could safely use a correct size/rating Michelin XAS 165HR15 (or tbd Pirelli in that size) with or without tubes - & not be CW judging dinged - then I MIGHT be willing to pop the extra $1600+ over the $550 Vredesteins - since I'd need all 5 tires new. However, if I'm getting dinged either way, then I'd opt for the 165HR15 Vredesteins!
Since I DO plan to take her on the open road at least some, & I have had 'er over the 112mph SR max (but will deny it if pressed by the law!
)! ...so I'd really like to have the proper size/rated tires on there - regardless of maker!BTW - as the projected costs repairing & restoring my early-73 914-2.0/"914S" has mounted, I'm looking to try to restore to a CW quality to match that cost & retain value better - although I may never show for more than just fun, but someone more anal than I may want to do so in the future!?
However - I have to find & buy both the 5 "missing" Fuchs 2L Alloys from mine, plus 5 tires -- & I find it hard to justify $1200+ for restored wheels & $2400+ for 5 Michelins/Pirellis with tubes/etc. - i.e.: $3600-4000+ for wheels & tires alone - if they're still NOT correct CW!
In that case for me, I'd either go with the OE size/rating/tubeless 165HR15 tubeless Vredesteins (sorry Pat), or else an upgraded size HR or VR in the 185/70x15 or 195/65x15 offering the min. available speedo/odo error (0.8% & 1.6% respectively) from another current tire maker as "modern tires" per Pat & some others here (sorry other CW hardliners)!
Otherwise, it's just self-punishment & self-flagellation (in both senses!) to spend 4x the cost for an incorrect tire!
Frankly - as a logical person (I think
) - I do not see the problem with Vredestein or any other manufacturer which might have been around then, who decides to mfgr repro tires today with the necessary DOT approval!? When there is no "perfect solution" - then you make Lemonaid & do the best you can. ...or make a "Shandy"!
Posted by: Tom_T Jun 15 2009, 06:50 PM
Tom:
Great work on organizing the above material, however I still challenge the "authentication" of the marketing material. They are just that "marketing material". (I guess my poor impression of marketing people is showing. They'll tell you anything to get you to buy something. <grin>).
I agree that every CW entrant should do research on their specific car and assemble any data possible to sustain their position on the originality, as well as ownership and maintenance records, into a presentable book should the time come where such info is necessary to prove to a judge a particular point. I have one primarily to show the few differences between a US spec and my Euro spec 914-6 (and it has helped).
Overall, however, I think your missing the point. I think that it would be asking a bit much to expect judges to know the specific tyre manufacturer (yet alone whether it should be tube-type or tubeless) of a particular model year 914. Knowledge of the correct wheel type/size and tyre profile/size would be expected at a top notch judging. We should be so lucky to get judges that have that knowledge.
Just for giggles, look at the factory parts and workshop manuals. They provide a complete list of wheels available (sorry, no chromies for the 4 cyl 914, wish they did as they look great), and tyre sizes recommended.
No, I'm not "shooting of the messenger". Just trying to bug the moderator with the length of this discussion. <grin>
Thanx!
I just meant the marketing brochures as a starting point, & another alternative document which at least shows that tubeless in all of the various 914/4 sizes were available - if not the intended base-spec. tires/wheel combos. I think that those could be used to justify a particular tire/wheel for judges/challenges. ...or should be - but then we know haw PCA is on "should-be's"!
As for tube vs. tubeless - I still have to question whether tube can be used at all on the proper fitment Fuchs 2L Alloys - period - because that's what I've always been told "back in the day" & have read recently!? Does anyone out there have verified info on this fact????
I still need to order the factory parts/service manuals on CD from AA. Maybe you could post those sizes/types/combos here from the manuals for everybody else, in order to add to this ever expanding "body of knowledge (
?)"???As to the length - Pat's opening post was started to consolidate the discussion here, so it now goes on & on!!!! ...maybe he got more than he bargained for!?
Posted by: Tom_T Jun 17 2009, 05:03 PM
Tom:
Overall, however, I think your missing the point. I think that it would be asking a bit much to expect judges to know the specific tyre manufacturer (yet alone whether it should be tube-type or tubeless) of a particular model year 914. Knowledge of the correct wheel type/size and tyre profile/size would be expected at a top notch judging. We should be so lucky to get judges that have that knowledge.
OK - I think I saw what you're talking about above, when I looked at the local PCA Zone 8 Concours Rules from 2009, which I suspect are similar for the other zones as well. Specifically, they say: "Judging shall be based on preparation and maintenance, not on originality or deviations from stock. Personalization or modification of the vehicle is not penalized if it is done in a competent and professional manner."
I've added the bold for emphasis, & if this is a general PCA rule for judging, then what truly is the big deal on any of this for the Full, Street, Restoration (?), & other classes - except for the "Preservation Class" where everything has to be as original as possible???
If that is the national rule as well, then is it just the big regional, zone or national championships where PCA judges exert other rules &/or higher standards than indicated by the above???
Sorry to be so ignorant on this, but I've never been involved in PCA nor other car clubs & shows myself, but have gone &
at many!BTW - I was also encouraged, when I noticed that PCA Zone 8/Orange Coast offers a "Wash & Shine" div. to get your toe wet; & a "Street" div. if a 'slightly less-anal 914-nut' such as myself want to go the step further; & that the local & lower level PCA shows "...are open to any person..." - which I assume means non-PCA members to try it out (great idea for recruiting skeptics like me - btw)!
So that, plus the idea that I can "personalize" my 914 a bit in good taste - has me a happy camper!
Aside from getting a set of good tires of my choice which are a proper size, speed rating, tube/tubeless per what fits/works properly on those Fuchs 2Ls, which I still need to find....
....then, how about some "tasteful" hand-pinstripes along the fender lines!!?? 
...or is that going too far afield for the typical judges????
Posted by: Jasfsmith Jun 18 2009, 11:43 AM
NO SUCH THING - every Munroney Window Sticker which I've erver seen, at best - only gives the tire size/rating - period!
What about 1969-77 USA ads for Vredesteins of the proper tires from period publications??? ...would that "CW qualify" them for judging??
So Pat - for my indubitably un-CW knowledge (still learning here) - then the CW show judges would still ding the 914-2.0s for Vredesteins (at least at the higher level shows) - even if they were available outside of the USA? ...& even if they were available aftermarket but NOT an OE tire for US 914s??
Heck - if I could safely use a correct size/rating Michelin XAS 165HR15 (or tbd Pirelli in that size) with or without tubes - & not be CW judging dinged - then I MIGHT be willing to pop the extra $1600+ over the $550 Vredesteins - since I'd need all 5 tires new. However, if I'm getting dinged either way, then I'd opt for the 165HR15 Vredesteins!
Since I DO plan to take her on the open road at least some, & I have had 'er over the 112mph SR max (but will deny it if pressed by the law!
)! ...so I'd really like to have the proper size/rated tires on there - regardless of maker!BTW - as the projected costs repairing & restoring my early-73 914-2.0/"914S" has mounted, I'm looking to try to restore to a CW quality to match that cost & retain value better - although I may never show for more than just fun, but someone more anal than I may want to do so in the future!?
However - I have to find & buy both the 5 "missing" Fuchs 2L Alloys from mine, plus 5 tires -- & I find it hard to justify $1200+ for restored wheels & $2400+ for 5 Michelins/Pirellis with tubes/etc. - i.e.: $3600-4000+ for wheels & tires alone - if they're still NOT correct CW!
In that case for me, I'd either go with the OE size/rating/tubeless 165HR15 tubeless Vredesteins (sorry Pat), or else an upgraded size HR or VR in the 185/70x15 or 195/65x15 offering the min. available speedo/odo error (0.8% & 1.6% respectively) from another current tire maker as "modern tires" per Pat & some others here (sorry other CW hardliners)!
Frankly - as a logical person (I think
) - I do not see the problem with Vredestein or any other manufacturer which might have been around then, who decides to mfgr repro tires today with the necessary DOT approval!? I would not expect you to be dinged with either the Vredesteins or Michelin XAS in 165HR15 size. Anything else might result in a deduction.
Speciality tire producers such as Coker Tire make a living on buying the reproduction rights as they see a nitch market. Time between runs are determined by demand I suspect.
Posted by: Jasfsmith Jun 18 2009, 11:55 AM
OK - I think I saw what you're talking about above, when I looked at the local PCA Zone 8 Concours Rules from 2009, which I suspect are similar for the other zones as well. Specifically, they say: "Judging shall be based on preparation and maintenance, not on originality or deviations from stock. Personalization or modification of the vehicle is not penalized if it is done in a competent and professional manner."
I've added the bold for emphasis, & if this is a general PCA rule for judging, then what truly is the big deal on any of this for the Full, Street, Restoration (?), & other classes - except for the "Preservation Class" where everything has to be as original as possible???
If that is the national rule as well, then is it just the big regional, zone or national championships where PCA judges exert other rules &/or higher standards than indicated by the above???
Sorry to be so ignorant on this, but I've never been involved in PCA nor other car clubs & shows myself, but have gone &
at many!BTW - I was also encouraged, when I noticed that PCA Zone 8/Orange Coast offers a "Wash & Shine" div. to get your toe wet; & a "Street" div. if a 'slightly less-anal 914-nut' such as myself want to go the step further; & that the local & lower level PCA shows "...are open to any person..." - which I assume means non-PCA members to try it out (great idea for recruiting skeptics like me - btw)!
Complete PCA Parade judging classifications and score sheets for all the classes can be downloaded from the PCA.ORG site.
PCA Zone 8's "Wash& Shine" and "Street" divisions sound like other Zone's concour offerings in attempt to encourage everyone to become anal as one wants to be about this stuff. The national level is another level up (perhaps a bigger jump than the "Wash & Shine" to "Street" mind you.).
Just think, once you've moved into the national Concour judged events, you be at the top of the anal world and with the likes of Pat Garvey. <grin>
Posted by: Tom_T Jun 18 2009, 12:54 PM
EDITED - DELETE
Posted by: Pat Garvey Jun 21 2009, 08:17 PM
NO SUCH THING - every Munroney Window Sticker which I've erver seen, at best - only gives the tire size/rating - period!
What about 1969-77 USA ads for Vredesteins of the proper tires from period publications??? ...would that "CW qualify" them for judging??
So Pat - for my indubitably un-CW knowledge (still learning here) - then the CW show judges would still ding the 914-2.0s for Vredesteins (at least at the higher level shows) - even if they were available outside of the USA? ...& even if they were available aftermarket but NOT an OE tire for US 914s??
Heck - if I could safely use a correct size/rating Michelin XAS 165HR15 (or tbd Pirelli in that size) with or without tubes - & not be CW judging dinged - then I MIGHT be willing to pop the extra $1600+ over the $550 Vredesteins - since I'd need all 5 tires new. However, if I'm getting dinged either way, then I'd opt for the 165HR15 Vredesteins!
Since I DO plan to take her on the open road at least some, & I have had 'er over the 112mph SR max (but will deny it if pressed by the law!
)! ...so I'd really like to have the proper size/rated tires on there - regardless of maker!BTW - as the projected costs repairing & restoring my early-73 914-2.0/"914S" has mounted, I'm looking to try to restore to a CW quality to match that cost & retain value better - although I may never show for more than just fun, but someone more anal than I may want to do so in the future!?
However - I have to find & buy both the 5 "missing" Fuchs 2L Alloys from mine, plus 5 tires -- & I find it hard to justify $1200+ for restored wheels & $2400+ for 5 Michelins/Pirellis with tubes/etc. - i.e.: $3600-4000+ for wheels & tires alone - if they're still NOT correct CW!
In that case for me, I'd either go with the OE size/rating/tubeless 165HR15 tubeless Vredesteins (sorry Pat), or else an upgraded size HR or VR in the 185/70x15 or 195/65x15 offering the min. available speedo/odo error (0.8% & 1.6% respectively) from another current tire maker as "modern tires" per Pat & some others here (sorry other CW hardliners)!
Frankly - as a logical person (I think
) - I do not see the problem with Vredestein or any other manufacturer which might have been around then, who decides to mfgr repro tires today with the necessary DOT approval!? I would not expect you to be dinged with either the Vredesteins or Michelin XAS in 165HR15 size. Anything else might result in a deduction.
Speciality tire producers such as Coker Tire make a living on buying the reproduction rights as they see a nitch market. Time between runs are determined by demand I suspect.
Oh crap, here we go again!
I'll not fault Coker for what they do, and they do it well.
BUT! (get that - full caps). Vredesteins were not available on US 914's in 74 (maybe never for the US market). So...what you will have is a 914 that will get dinged badly at PCA Parade levels. Yeah, James get's away with his tires because he has a euro car.
XAS's (tube type) are the only way to go if you don't want to give away 3 points. Vredesteins, in my book (since they were never original to US 914's) will cost you the same loss.
So, why not (and I know I'm a heretic here) put something on your 914 that is safe, and contemporary. And, something that fills the wheel wells (I said I was being a heretic), handles great & is safe.
Your choice, but I know what I've picked out for my 72. Don'y ask, beacause I won't tell.
Seriously, if I were to try for a third win at Parade level, I'd squander the two grand for inferior tires/tubes/moumting/balancing. Then, I'd come home & sell them, and take my losses.
But, that's just me. "I don need no stinkin trophis no more".
Pat
Posted by: Tom_T Jun 21 2009, 09:49 PM
I'm leaning toward the 185/70VR15 Michelin XAS or XWX, because they're tubeless, were part of the 914's available options & fit the Porsche's own recco's for alternative tires for the 914s from 1992 (although they also recco 195/65HR-VR15), but have the smallest speedo/odo error of 0.8% (1/2 that of 195/65's) & will still handle a bit better than the stock 165HR15s. Of course they're still considered special production vintage tires and expensive as all get out!
According to the 914 SIG webpage on 914 optional eqpt., a similar size was available from Porsche under the M471 option package, as follows:
"914/6 GT Equipment-Steel flares, 6Jx15 Alloy wheels with 185/75VR15 tires, 5.5Jx15 Alloy wheels with 165HR15 tires, 66mm wheel bolts, 21mm wheel spacers front and rear"
....yes, I know, that's for the 914/6 GT - not the 914/4's......but still?
I'll bet there's someone out there who ordered 185s on a 2L at some point!?
Is that what you were thinking Pat???? ...or were you going full-tilt 195/65VR15 Ultra High Performance tires???
Why all the secrecy?
Here's the Porsche letter re: alt. tire sizes in German (also from 914 SIG website):
Posted by: Porsche Rescue Jun 22 2009, 07:12 AM
The letter should be sufficient to convince PCA that a properly rated 195/65 is an acceptable replacement for a NLA tire.
Posted by: Jasfsmith Jun 22 2009, 09:49 AM
The letter should be sufficient to convince PCA that a properly rated 195/65 is an acceptable replacement for a NLA tire.
Again. I contend that Porsche never specified a tyre manufacturer, and any tire that meets there specs and are "period" correct will meet the judges approval. 195/65 will likely not.
Anyone here able to translate the letter?
Posted by: Tom_T Jun 22 2009, 10:50 AM
The letter should be sufficient to convince PCA that a properly rated 195/65 is an acceptable replacement for a NLA tire.
One would think so, but then...
Not being fluent/reader of German, I can't say what it says, other than it references 195x15 & 185x15 sizes as alternates & is on Porsche letterhead. Also the PCA Zone 8 Concours Rules excerpt which I posted above would lead one to believe that such changes & deviations are not to be marked down, unless there's a national rule to the contrary!?
However, numerous others who have shown their 914s & done the PCA Parades have already said that they don't accept those sizes.
EDITED 3-24-12
Posted by: Tom_T Jun 22 2009, 11:03 AM
EDITED - DELETE
Posted by: Tom_T Jun 22 2009, 11:18 AM
The letter should be sufficient to convince PCA that a properly rated 195/65 is an acceptable replacement for a NLA tire.
Again. I contend that Porsche never specified a tyre manufacturer, and any tire that meets there specs and are "period" correct will meet the judges approval. 195/65 will likely not.
Anyone here able to translate the letter?
As everything posted & everyone here has said, they mounted several brands/makers' tires on both 911s/912s & 914s, etc.
Many here have said that they had Michelins X-- & Continentals as OE, plus the road test articles on the 914s often listed Dunlop SP57s - as have several other original owners here.
I'm not positive if Semperits were also in that OE crowd as well, but I think so because of my "early" spare (Semperit M166) & other original owner 914ers whom I've known who've claimed so (although these could've been dealer switches, same as the missing alloys were).
And then there were the plethora of other available tires of the 1970s - many available in the OE sizes/ratings - to which people switched for the "next set(s) of tires" - including Semperits (tire tests of that era rated better or equal to the OEs above), Pirellis, Coopers, etc.!
Posted by: Tom_T Jun 22 2009, 11:25 AM
FYI All Y'all (that's plural for Y'all - ya know!?)
Here's a cut-n-paste of what I've heard back from Vredestein by email, & my request for additional clarification on their period production of aftermarket tires, & am still awaiting a response.
As generally anticipated, they were not OE tire suppliers according to the writer.
<snipped>
Dear Ms. Walters,
Thank you for the clarification regarding the Vredestein tires not being OE on the Porsche 914s of 1969-1977 era. Frankly I thought that was a long shot, and probably only applicable in European delivery cars - if at all.
However, another aspect to my question was whether or not Vredestein produced aftermarket sports car tires during that 1970's period - in any of the 155SR15, 165SR15, 165HR15, 185/70VR15 &/or other appropriate sizes, as either tube &/or tubeless types - which could have been found on the Porsche 914s as aftermarket replacements? If so, then please specify what was available during the 1970s and where they were offered geographically.
As you noted, for many vehicles the actual OE tires are not offered in the exact specified fitment by the OE suppliers at this time. This is especially true for the 1973-76 model year Porsche 914-2.0 vehicles for USA delivery (denoted as "VW-Porsche" outside of the USA), which had specified the 165HR15 Tubeless Radial Tires - often in the Dunlop SP 57, as well as in various iterations of Michelin, Continental and perhaps Semperit, Cooper and other OE suppliers. None of these today offers that specific proper size and speed rating in a tubeless tire, although Michelin does offer an XAS tube-type 165HR15, but I understand that tube-type tires cannot be used on the proper OE 4-Lug Fuchs 2.0 Forged Light Alloy Wheels, as well as for other wheels designed for the tubeless tires. Ergo, for my case, Vredestein's "Classic Sprint" is currently the only offering in that proper OE specified size/rating/tubeless tire available, to my knowledge based upon research to date.
Thank you in advance for this additional information.
Sincerely,
Tom Trischler
1973 Porsche 914-2.0 owner
Orange, Calif., USA
///////
-----Original Message-----
From: "Wolters R."
Sent: Jun 17, 2009 5:34 PM
To: catrischler@earthlink.net
Subject: RE: Algemeen contact formulier
Hello Mr Trischler,
Although we presently supply the Sprint Classic in several dimensions that are suitable for fitment on a VW-Porsche to my knowledge we have never supplied these tires as OE fitment. When it comes to getting vehicles in concours condition where by it is necessarry to have OE tires fitted to the vehicle, we are sorry to have to disappoint you. Having said that, we doubt that very many of the OE type tires are still on the market today.
As you mention we do have the Sprint Classsic and Sprint + available in several of the dimensions that you mention, and they are an excellent alternative for OE tires as they assentially are a modern tire in a period look, built on modern machines with very small tolerances.
Thank you very much for your interest in our tires
Sincerely
René Wolters
-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: Ligtenberg M. Namens Info Vredestein
Verzonden: maandag 15 juni 2009 2:45
Aan: Customer US
Onderwerp: FW: Algemeen contact formulier
-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: catrischler@earthlink.net [mailto:catrischler@earthlink.net]
Verzonden: zondag 14 juni 2009 0:07
Aan: Info Vredestein
Onderwerp: Algemeen contact formulier
Algemeen contact formulier
Naam/Name: Mr. Tom Trischler
Email/E-mail address: catrischler@earthlink.net
Adres/Address: 703 N. Shaffer St.
Postcode/Postal code: 92867
Plaats/City: Orange, CA
Land/Country: USA
Telefoon/Telephone: 714-469-6769
Fax/Fax: 714-633-5050
Opmerkingen/Remarks: Dear Sirs/Ladies: I understand that Vredestein has been in the tire business since 1946, but am not sure whether or not they supplied automobile tires during the 1970s, if so - whether supplied here in the USA or only to Europe/non-USA, and whether their period offerings included tires appropriate to the various Porsche/VW-Porsche 914 models produced & sold between 1969-1977. Can you please verify if Vredestein supplied either OE &/or Aftermarket Tires during the 1970's (OE - 1969-1977) for the Porsche (USA) &/or Porsche/VW (Europe & World) model 914 cars? If so, can uyou please provide documentation on such, and on which sizes & types were available during that period, such as: 155SR15, 165SR15, 165HR15, 175/70VR15, etc.; whether they were tube &/or tubeless, radial &/or other designs; as well as where (e.g.: Europe, USA, etc.) & during which years such were available (if any). We are trying to establish that Vredestein's current "Sprint+" &/or "Classic Sprint" tires are acceptable current offerings of an acceptable OE &/or period manufacturer of tires for these cars, for the various Porsche concours shows. Documentation on official Vredestein company letterhead &/or period advertisements, brochures & spec. sheets would be most helpful to 914 owners in this regard - if you can supply such documents with a cover letter. Thank You. Sincerely, Tom Trischler owner: 1973 Porsche 914-2.0 (USA/Calif.)
VREDESTEIN TYRES
13 BRIDGE STREET
METUCHEN N.J. 08840
U.S.A.
T: 732 549 2440
F: 732 549 2450
WoltersR@vredestein.com
http://www.vredestein.com/
The information contained in this message may be confidential and is intended to be exclusively for the addressee. Should you receive this message unintentionally, please do not use the contents herein and notify the sender immediately by return e-mail.
<end snip>
Posted by: Tom_T Jun 22 2009, 12:37 PM
FYI All Y'all (that's plural for Y'all - ya know!?)
Here's a cut-n-paste of what I've heard back from Vredestein by email, & my request for additional clarification on their period production of aftermarket tires, & am still awaiting a response.
As generally anticipated, they were not OE tire suppliers according to the writer.
<snipped>
Dear Ms. Walters,
Thank you for the clarification regarding the Vredestein tires not being OE on the Porsche 914s of 1969-1977 era. Frankly I thought that was a long shot, and probably only applicable in European delivery cars - if at all.
However, another aspect to my question was whether or not Vredestein produced aftermarket sports car tires during that 1970's period - in any of the 155SR15, 165SR15, 165HR15, 185/70VR15 &/or other appropriate sizes, as either tube &/or tubeless types - which could have been found on the Porsche 914s as aftermarket replacements? If so, then please specify what was available during the 1970s and where they were offered geographically.
As you noted, for many vehicles the actual OE tires are not offered in the exact specified fitment by the OE suppliers at this time. This is especially true for the 1973-76 model year Porsche 914-2.0 vehicles for USA delivery (denoted as "VW-Porsche" outside of the USA), which had specified the 165HR15 Tubeless Radial Tires - often in the Dunlop SP 57, as well as in various iterations of Michelin, Continental and perhaps Semperit, Cooper and other OE suppliers. None of these today offers that specific proper size and speed rating in a tubeless tire, although Michelin does offer an XAS tube-type 165HR15, but I understand that tube-type tires cannot be used on the proper OE 4-Lug Fuchs 2.0 Forged Light Alloy Wheels, as well as for other wheels designed for the tubeless tires. Ergo, for my case, Vredestein's "Classic Sprint" is currently the only offering in that proper OE specified size/rating/tubeless tire available, to my knowledge based upon research to date.
Thank you in advance for this additional information.
Sincerely,
Tom Trischler
1973 Porsche 914-2.0 owner
Orange, Calif., USA
///////
-----Original Message-----
From: "Wolters R."
Sent: Jun 17, 2009 5:34 PM
To: catrischler@earthlink.net
Subject: RE: Algemeen contact formulier
Hello Mr Trischler,
Although we presently supply the Sprint Classic in several dimensions that are suitable for fitment on a VW-Porsche to my knowledge we have never supplied these tires as OE fitment. When it comes to getting vehicles in concours condition where by it is necessarry to have OE tires fitted to the vehicle, we are sorry to have to disappoint you. Having said that, we doubt that very many of the OE type tires are still on the market today.
As you mention we do have the Sprint Classsic and Sprint + available in several of the dimensions that you mention, and they are an excellent alternative for OE tires as they assentially are a modern tire in a period look, built on modern machines with very small tolerances.
Thank you very much for your interest in our tires
Sincerely
René Wolters
-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: Ligtenberg M. Namens Info Vredestein
Verzonden: maandag 15 juni 2009 2:45
Aan: Customer US
Onderwerp: FW: Algemeen contact formulier
-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: catrischler@earthlink.net [mailto:catrischler@earthlink.net]
Verzonden: zondag 14 juni 2009 0:07
Aan: Info Vredestein
Onderwerp: Algemeen contact formulier
Algemeen contact formulier
Naam/Name: Mr. Tom Trischler
Email/E-mail address: catrischler@earthlink.net
Adres/Address: 703 N. Shaffer St.
Postcode/Postal code: 92867
Plaats/City: Orange, CA
Land/Country: USA
Telefoon/Telephone: 714-469-6769
Fax/Fax: 714-633-5050
Opmerkingen/Remarks: Dear Sirs/Ladies: I understand that Vredestein has been in the tire business since 1946, but am not sure whether or not they supplied automobile tires during the 1970s, if so - whether supplied here in the USA or only to Europe/non-USA, and whether their period offerings included tires appropriate to the various Porsche/VW-Porsche 914 models produced & sold between 1969-1977. Can you please verify if Vredestein supplied either OE &/or Aftermarket Tires during the 1970's (OE - 1969-1977) for the Porsche (USA) &/or Porsche/VW (Europe & World) model 914 cars? If so, can uyou please provide documentation on such, and on which sizes & types were available during that period, such as: 155SR15, 165SR15, 165HR15, 175/70VR15, etc.; whether they were tube &/or tubeless, radial &/or other designs; as well as where (e.g.: Europe, USA, etc.) & during which years such were available (if any). We are trying to establish that Vredestein's current "Sprint+" &/or "Classic Sprint" tires are acceptable current offerings of an acceptable OE &/or period manufacturer of tires for these cars, for the various Porsche concours shows. Documentation on official Vredestein company letterhead &/or period advertisements, brochures & spec. sheets would be most helpful to 914 owners in this regard - if you can supply such documents with a cover letter. Thank You. Sincerely, Tom Trischler owner: 1973 Porsche 914-2.0 (USA/Calif.)
VREDESTEIN TYRES
13 BRIDGE STREET
METUCHEN N.J. 08840
U.S.A.
T: 732 549 2440
F: 732 549 2450
WoltersR@vredestein.com
http://www.vredestein.com/
The information contained in this message may be confidential and is intended to be exclusively for the addressee. Should you receive this message unintentionally, please do not use the contents herein and notify the sender immediately by return e-mail.
<end snip>
After resending my clarification request again this morning, I just received the following clarification for Mr. Wolters at Vredestein Tyres, which indicates that they did produce such tires during the 1970s. for sure in the SR flavor, maybe in HR, but probably not in VR (if I'm interpolating his comments correctly). Hopefully this is of some use to others out there.
If I can figure out a way to transfer his emails with the Vredestein letterhead/logo into a picture file, then I'll post it here later for others' direct print-out & use.
<snipped>
From: "Wolters R." <WoltersR@vredestein.com> [Add to Address Book]
To: Thomas Trischler <catrischler@earthlink.net>
Subject: RE: 2nd Request for Clarification on 1970's Tyre Production (RE: Algemeen contact formulier)
Date: Jun 22, 2009 1:25 PM
Attachments: unknown-1 KB
Dear Mr Trischler
During the 70's we had those tire sizes you mention in our program, however to my knowledge these were S rated tires, certainly not V rated. We sold our tires mainly in Europe, however it could be that some of our products found their way to different markets, such as The US or South America. If this was the case thes tires were either sold by our export department (which handles all markets where we do not own subsidiaries), or through third parties.
Either way it is too far in the past to be able to give you exact data.
Sincerely Yours,
Mr René Wolters
<end snip>
Posted by: Pat Garvey Jun 22 2009, 07:37 PM
Okay folks - I'm looking at the following "official" 914 Marketing brochures at Jeff Bownslby's webpage link below:
http://members.rennlist.com/914_collectibles/Brochures.htm
It would appear from this, that in the USA at least, there was perhaps a CHOICE of tube or tubeless tires on 914s between 1970-1972 MY, per these:
1970 MY Spec. Sheets:
http://members.rennlist.com/914_collectibles/zBro_70USA1-04.jpg
http://members.rennlist.com/914_collectibles/zBro_70USA2-06.jpg
http://members.rennlist.com/914_collectibles/zBro_70USA3-18.jpg
1971 MY Spec. Sheets:
> These are very hard to read the Specs on this MY. If anyone has a more legible 1971 MY Spec sheet, please post it or a link thereto here!
http://members.rennlist.com/914_collectibles/zBro_71USA1-14.jpg
http://members.rennlist.com/914_collectibles/zBro_71USA2-06.jpg
1972 MY Spec. Sheets:
- Pat, these appear to Spec tubeless for 1972 MY? ...could yours have been tubeless due to the chrome wheels which you got??
http://members.rennlist.com/914_collectibles/zBro_72USA1-02.jpg
http://members.rennlist.com/914_collectibles/zBro_72USA2-12.jpg
http://members.rennlist.com/914_collectibles/zBro_72C1-04.jpg
1973 MY Spec. Sheets:
as I had previously posted those links/pages above
http://members.rennlist.com/914_collectibles/zBro_73USA1-04.jpg
http://members.rennlist.com/914_collectibles/zBro_73USA2-12.jpg
1974 MY Spec. Sheets:
http://members.rennlist.com/914_collectibles/zBro_74USA1-04.jpg
http://members.rennlist.com/914_collectibles/zBro_74USA2-21.JPG
http://members.rennlist.com/914_collectibles/zBro_74USA2-22.JPG
1975 MY Spec. Sheets:
http://members.rennlist.com/914_collectibles/zBro_75USA1-04.jpg
http://members.rennlist.com/914_collectibles/zBro_75USA2-21.jpg
http://members.rennlist.com/914_collectibles/zBro_75USA2-22.jpg
1976 MY Spec. Sheets:
http://members.rennlist.com/914_collectibles/zBro_76USA1-04.jpg
http://members.rennlist.com/914_collectibles/zBro_76USA2-20.jpg
http://members.rennlist.com/914_collectibles/zBro_76USA2-21.jpg
Based upon the above specs for USA 914s, it would appear that the "stock" or "base level" tire & wheel fitment for the 1970-76 914s were as follows:
1970:
1.7L --- 4.5Jx15 Steel Wheels with 155SR15 Tubeless Tires
914/6 - 5.5Jx15 Steel Wheels with 165HR15 Tires with Tubes
...........Alloys were an option at extra cost on both the 1.7 & 6
1971: - this one is hardly legible, but appears to be the same as the prior 1970 MY's Specs??
1.7L --- 4.5Jx15 Steel Wheels with 155SR15 Tubeless Tires
914/6 - 5.5Jx15 Steel Wheels with 165HR15 Tires with Tubes
...........Alloys were an option at extra cost on both the 1.7 & 6
1972:
1.7L - 4.5Jx15 Steel Wheels with 155SR15 Tubeless Tires
...........Alloys were an option at extra cost
1973:
1.7L - 4.5Jx15 Steel Wheels with 155SR15 Tubeless Tires
2.0L - 5.5Jx15 Special (Fuchs 2L Style) Forged Light Alloy Wheels*
...........Alloys were an option at extra cost on the 1.7 & standard on the 2.0
* Note that 1973 MY was the only one where the Fuchs 2L Alloys, as a part of the Appearance Group & Performance Group Option Sets, all of which were included in that MY's 2L base price as "standard" or "included" options - per the following brochure page links. Starting in the 1974 to 1976 MYs, these were part or all made "options at additional cost," as noted in each year's brochure specs. &/or text.
http://members.rennlist.com/914_collectibles/zBro_73USA1-03.jpg
http://members.rennlist.com/914_collectibles/zBro_73USA2-11.jpg
1974:
1.8L - 5.5Jx15 Special (Mag-Look) Steel Wheels with 165SR15 Tubeless Tires
2.0L - 5.5Jx15 Special (Mag-Look) Steel Wheels with 165HR15 Tubeless Tires
...........Alloys were an option at extra cost on both the 1.8 & 2.0
1975:
1.8L - 5.5Jx15 Special (Mag-Look) Steel Wheels with 165SR15 Tubeless Tires
2.0L - 5.5Jx15 Special (Mag-Look) Steel Wheels with 165HR15 Tubeless Tires
...........Alloys were an option at extra cost on both the 1.8 & 2.0
1976:
2.0L - 5.5Jx15 Special (Mag-Look) Steel Wheels with 165HR15 Tubeless Tires
...........Alloys were an option at extra cost on the 2.0
NOTE: For those who had a different fitment from the above & at these Porsche+Audi sales brochures' info., of the standard/base level wheels &/or tires on your 914s when new, was either the result of: a particular option of wheels &/or tires fitted to the car, Factory substitutions based upon tire availability at the time of production of your particular car, &/or due to the dealer shenanigans in swapping &/or outright stealing of the proper wheels/tires for the car, etc.
As I understand how PCA et al look at the "proper wheel & tire fitment" for a particular car, it should conform to either the above standard/base level fitments - unless the Munroney Window Sticker, Dealer Bill of Sale, COA &/or other documentation can prove otherwise, in which case that is the proper wheel/tire fitment under the CW rules.
-- Please correct me if I'm wrong Pat & other CWs!
Again - the sales brochures & marketing documents at this web link below are EXCELLENT resources for the OE fitment & period/MY options & accessories available for the 1970-76 914s!!!! Look at them if you haven't already!
Disbelieve if you wish - but look at these & other "official" documentation before you challenge these authentic PORSCHE+AUDI documents - & NO MORE "shooting of the messenger" PLEEZ!!
So now the rest of you 1970-72 & 1974-76 MY 914 owners can do the more detailed research, since I've given you a start here! What am I missing here?
Either I'm, blind (which is pretty close to the truth), or there's no mention of optional (app group) wheels for the 72's, i.e. 5 1/2 inchers. That mandates a larger tire, such as a 165. I know it means little, but it shows that taking print as literal is not always correct. Or, did I miss it?
Pat
Posted by: Pat Garvey Jun 22 2009, 07:49 PM
FYI All Y'all (that's plural for Y'all - ya know!?)
Here's a cut-n-paste of what I've heard back from Vredestein by email, & my request for additional clarification on their period production of aftermarket tires, & am still awaiting a response.
As generally anticipated, they were not OE tire suppliers according to the writer.
<snipped>
Dear Ms. Walters,
Thank you for the clarification regarding the Vredestein tires not being OE on the Porsche 914s of 1969-1977 era. Frankly I thought that was a long shot, and probably only applicable in European delivery cars - if at all.
However, another aspect to my question was whether or not Vredestein produced aftermarket sports car tires during that 1970's period - in any of the 155SR15, 165SR15, 165HR15, 185/70VR15 &/or other appropriate sizes, as either tube &/or tubeless types - which could have been found on the Porsche 914s as aftermarket replacements? If so, then please specify what was available during the 1970s and where they were offered geographically.
As you noted, for many vehicles the actual OE tires are not offered in the exact specified fitment by the OE suppliers at this time. This is especially true for the 1973-76 model year Porsche 914-2.0 vehicles for USA delivery (denoted as "VW-Porsche" outside of the USA), which had specified the 165HR15 Tubeless Radial Tires - often in the Dunlop SP 57, as well as in various iterations of Michelin, Continental and perhaps Semperit, Cooper and other OE suppliers. None of these today offers that specific proper size and speed rating in a tubeless tire, although Michelin does offer an XAS tube-type 165HR15, but I understand that tube-type tires cannot be used on the proper OE 4-Lug Fuchs 2.0 Forged Light Alloy Wheels, as well as for other wheels designed for the tubeless tires. Ergo, for my case, Vredestein's "Classic Sprint" is currently the only offering in that proper OE specified size/rating/tubeless tire available, to my knowledge based upon research to date.
Thank you in advance for this additional information.
Sincerely,
Tom Trischler
1973 Porsche 914-2.0 owner
Orange, Calif., USA
///////
-----Original Message-----
From: "Wolters R."
Sent: Jun 17, 2009 5:34 PM
To: catrischler@earthlink.net
Subject: RE: Algemeen contact formulier
Hello Mr Trischler,
Although we presently supply the Sprint Classic in several dimensions that are suitable for fitment on a VW-Porsche to my knowledge we have never supplied these tires as OE fitment. When it comes to getting vehicles in concours condition where by it is necessarry to have OE tires fitted to the vehicle, we are sorry to have to disappoint you. Having said that, we doubt that very many of the OE type tires are still on the market today.
As you mention we do have the Sprint Classsic and Sprint + available in several of the dimensions that you mention, and they are an excellent alternative for OE tires as they assentially are a modern tire in a period look, built on modern machines with very small tolerances.
Thank you very much for your interest in our tires
Sincerely
René Wolters
-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: Ligtenberg M. Namens Info Vredestein
Verzonden: maandag 15 juni 2009 2:45
Aan: Customer US
Onderwerp: FW: Algemeen contact formulier
-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: catrischler@earthlink.net [mailto:catrischler@earthlink.net]
Verzonden: zondag 14 juni 2009 0:07
Aan: Info Vredestein
Onderwerp: Algemeen contact formulier
Algemeen contact formulier
Naam/Name: Mr. Tom Trischler
Email/E-mail address: catrischler@earthlink.net
Adres/Address: 703 N. Shaffer St.
Postcode/Postal code: 92867
Plaats/City: Orange, CA
Land/Country: USA
Telefoon/Telephone: 714-469-6769
Fax/Fax: 714-633-5050
Opmerkingen/Remarks: Dear Sirs/Ladies: I understand that Vredestein has been in the tire business since 1946, but am not sure whether or not they supplied automobile tires during the 1970s, if so - whether supplied here in the USA or only to Europe/non-USA, and whether their period offerings included tires appropriate to the various Porsche/VW-Porsche 914 models produced & sold between 1969-1977. Can you please verify if Vredestein supplied either OE &/or Aftermarket Tires during the 1970's (OE - 1969-1977) for the Porsche (USA) &/or Porsche/VW (Europe & World) model 914 cars? If so, can uyou please provide documentation on such, and on which sizes & types were available during that period, such as: 155SR15, 165SR15, 165HR15, 175/70VR15, etc.; whether they were tube &/or tubeless, radial &/or other designs; as well as where (e.g.: Europe, USA, etc.) & during which years such were available (if any). We are trying to establish that Vredestein's current "Sprint+" &/or "Classic Sprint" tires are acceptable current offerings of an acceptable OE &/or period manufacturer of tires for these cars, for the various Porsche concours shows. Documentation on official Vredestein company letterhead &/or period advertisements, brochures & spec. sheets would be most helpful to 914 owners in this regard - if you can supply such documents with a cover letter. Thank You. Sincerely, Tom Trischler owner: 1973 Porsche 914-2.0 (USA/Calif.)
VREDESTEIN TYRES
13 BRIDGE STREET
METUCHEN N.J. 08840
U.S.A.
T: 732 549 2440
F: 732 549 2450
WoltersR@vredestein.com
http://www.vredestein.com/
The information contained in this message may be confidential and is intended to be exclusively for the addressee. Should you receive this message unintentionally, please do not use the contents herein and notify the sender immediately by return e-mail.
<end snip>
After resending my clarification request again this morning, I just received the following clarification for Mr. Wolters at Vredestein Tyres, which indicates that they did produce such tires during the 1970s. for sure in the SR flavor, maybe in HR, but probably not in VR (if I'm interpolating his comments correctly). Hopefully this is of some use to others out there.
If I can figure out a way to transfer his emails with the Vredestein letterhead/logo into a picture file, then I'll post it here later for others' direct print-out & use.
<snipped>
From: "Wolters R." <WoltersR@vredestein.com> [Add to Address Book]
To: Thomas Trischler <catrischler@earthlink.net>
Subject: RE: 2nd Request for Clarification on 1970's Tyre Production (RE: Algemeen contact formulier)
Date: Jun 22, 2009 1:25 PM
Attachments: unknown-1 KB
Dear Mr Trischler
During the 70's we had those tire sizes you mention in our program, however to my knowledge these were S rated tires, certainly not V rated. We sold our tires mainly in Europe, however it could be that some of our products found their way to different markets, such as The US or South America. If this was the case thes tires were either sold by our export department (which handles all markets where we do not own subsidiaries), or through third parties.
Either way it is too far in the past to be able to give you exact data.
Sincerely Yours,
Mr René Wolters
<end snip>
I hereby rest my case! Unless you have a euro 914, Vredesteins are not proper. Shame on any PCA concours judge that rules it so for a US car, but having been one your judging minutes are so stressful that it would be easy to overlook. But, that's also why PCA allows protests.
If your REALLY have to be REALLY perfect (remember, you're only looking at 3 points) go with the XZX's. In ten years you'll be pleading to the gods to have them wear out! They're rubbish. Oh, and I should say that they are nearly 40 year old rubbish.
Sorry to the Uber CW's, but I'll go with safety & performance. Yeah, burn me at the stake!
Posted by: Tom_T Jun 22 2009, 09:32 PM
Okay folks - I'm looking at the following "official" 914 Marketing brochures at Jeff Bownslby's webpage link below:
http://members.rennlist.com/914_collectibles/Brochures.htm
It would appear from this, that in the USA at least, there was perhaps a CHOICE of tube or tubeless tires on 914s between 1970-1972 MY, per these:
1970 MY Spec. Sheets:
http://members.rennlist.com/914_collectibles/zBro_70USA1-04.jpg
http://members.rennlist.com/914_collectibles/zBro_70USA2-06.jpg
http://members.rennlist.com/914_collectibles/zBro_70USA3-18.jpg
1971 MY Spec. Sheets:
> These are very hard to read the Specs on this MY. If anyone has a more legible 1971 MY Spec sheet, please post it or a link thereto here!
http://members.rennlist.com/914_collectibles/zBro_71USA1-14.jpg
http://members.rennlist.com/914_collectibles/zBro_71USA2-06.jpg
1972 MY Spec. Sheets:
- Pat, these appear to Spec tubeless for 1972 MY? ...could yours have been tubeless due to the chrome wheels which you got??
http://members.rennlist.com/914_collectibles/zBro_72USA1-02.jpg
http://members.rennlist.com/914_collectibles/zBro_72USA2-12.jpg
http://members.rennlist.com/914_collectibles/zBro_72C1-04.jpg
1973 MY Spec. Sheets:
as I had previously posted those links/pages above
http://members.rennlist.com/914_collectibles/zBro_73USA1-04.jpg
http://members.rennlist.com/914_collectibles/zBro_73USA2-12.jpg
1974 MY Spec. Sheets:
http://members.rennlist.com/914_collectibles/zBro_74USA1-04.jpg
http://members.rennlist.com/914_collectibles/zBro_74USA2-21.JPG
http://members.rennlist.com/914_collectibles/zBro_74USA2-22.JPG
1975 MY Spec. Sheets:
http://members.rennlist.com/914_collectibles/zBro_75USA1-04.jpg
http://members.rennlist.com/914_collectibles/zBro_75USA2-21.jpg
http://members.rennlist.com/914_collectibles/zBro_75USA2-22.jpg
1976 MY Spec. Sheets:
http://members.rennlist.com/914_collectibles/zBro_76USA1-04.jpg
http://members.rennlist.com/914_collectibles/zBro_76USA2-20.jpg
http://members.rennlist.com/914_collectibles/zBro_76USA2-21.jpg
Based upon the above specs for USA 914s, it would appear that the "stock" or "base level" tire & wheel fitment for the 1970-76 914s were as follows:
1970:
1.7L --- 4.5Jx15 Steel Wheels with 155SR15 Tubeless Tires
914/6 - 5.5Jx15 Steel Wheels with 165HR15 Tires with Tubes
...........Alloys were an option at extra cost on both the 1.7 & 6
1971: - this one is hardly legible, but appears to be the same as the prior 1970 MY's Specs??
1.7L --- 4.5Jx15 Steel Wheels with 155SR15 Tubeless Tires
914/6 - 5.5Jx15 Steel Wheels with 165HR15 Tires with Tubes
...........Alloys were an option at extra cost on both the 1.7 & 6
1972:
1.7L - 4.5Jx15 Steel Wheels with 155SR15 Tubeless Tires
...........Alloys were an option at extra cost
1973:
1.7L - 4.5Jx15 Steel Wheels with 155SR15 Tubeless Tires
2.0L - 5.5Jx15 Special (Fuchs 2L Style) Forged Light Alloy Wheels*
...........Alloys were an option at extra cost on the 1.7 & standard on the 2.0
* Note that 1973 MY was the only one where the Fuchs 2L Alloys, as a part of the Appearance Group & Performance Group Option Sets, all of which were included in that MY's 2L base price as "standard" or "included" options - per the following brochure page links. Starting in the 1974 to 1976 MYs, these were part or all made "options at additional cost," as noted in each year's brochure specs. &/or text.
http://members.rennlist.com/914_collectibles/zBro_73USA1-03.jpg
http://members.rennlist.com/914_collectibles/zBro_73USA2-11.jpg
1974:
1.8L - 5.5Jx15 Special (Mag-Look) Steel Wheels with 165SR15 Tubeless Tires
2.0L - 5.5Jx15 Special (Mag-Look) Steel Wheels with 165HR15 Tubeless Tires
...........Alloys were an option at extra cost on both the 1.8 & 2.0
1975:
1.8L - 5.5Jx15 Special (Mag-Look) Steel Wheels with 165SR15 Tubeless Tires
2.0L - 5.5Jx15 Special (Mag-Look) Steel Wheels with 165HR15 Tubeless Tires
...........Alloys were an option at extra cost on both the 1.8 & 2.0
1976:
2.0L - 5.5Jx15 Special (Mag-Look) Steel Wheels with 165HR15 Tubeless Tires
...........Alloys were an option at extra cost on the 2.0
NOTE: For those who had a different fitment from the above & at these Porsche+Audi sales brochures' info., of the standard/base level wheels &/or tires on your 914s when new, was either the result of: a particular option of wheels &/or tires fitted to the car, Factory substitutions based upon tire availability at the time of production of your particular car, &/or due to the dealer shenanigans in swapping &/or outright stealing of the proper wheels/tires for the car, etc.
As I understand how PCA et al look at the "proper wheel & tire fitment" for a particular car, it should conform to either the above standard/base level fitments - unless the Munroney Window Sticker, Dealer Bill of Sale, COA &/or other documentation can prove otherwise, in which case that is the proper wheel/tire fitment under the CW rules.
-- Please correct me if I'm wrong Pat & other CWs!
Again - the sales brochures & marketing documents at this web link below are EXCELLENT resources for the OE fitment & period/MY options & accessories available for the 1970-76 914s!!!! Look at them if you haven't already!
Disbelieve if you wish - but look at these & other "official" documentation before you challenge these authentic PORSCHE+AUDI documents - & NO MORE "shooting of the messenger" PLEEZ!!
So now the rest of you 1970-72 & 1974-76 MY 914 owners can do the more detailed research, since I've given you a start here! What am I missing here?
Either I'm, blind (which is pretty close to the truth), or there's no mention of optional (app group) wheels for the 72's, i.e. 5 1/2 inchers. That mandates a larger tire, such as a 165. I know it means little, but it shows that taking print as literal is not always correct. Or, did I miss it?
Pat
Hi Pat - those above would only list the so called "stock spec" wheel & tire items for the cars, and in some cases - a few of the available options.
Options are usually discussed in the text pages of the various sales brochures (although to a limited extent), for which I didn't list all brochure pages per year above, cuz I was focusing on the wheels & tires for this discussion - rather than "everything".
However, you can go the the link below & scroll down to 1972 USA brochures & link each page at the numbers in the right columns to read them:
http://members.rennlist.com/914_collectibles/Brochures.htm
For the options, you'll want to look at these web-pages on Jeff Bowlsby's excellent 914 SIG website - and start with M485 there:
Index of 914 Info. pages: http://members.rennlist.com/914_collectibles/
Options: http://members.rennlist.com/914_collectibles/OpEq.htm
Happy Reading!
Tom
///////
Posted by: Tom_T Jun 22 2009, 09:52 PM
[quote name='Pat Garvey' date='Jun 22 2009, 06:49 PM' post='1184235']
[quote name='Tom_T' post='1184108' date='Jun 22 2009, 12:37 PM']
[quote name='Tom_T' post='1184043' date='Jun 22 2009, 10:25 AM']
[/quote]
I hereby rest my case! Unless you have a euro 914, Vredesteins are not proper. Shame on any PCA concours judge that rules it so for a US car, but having been one your judging minutes are so stressful that it would be easy to overlook. But, that's also why PCA allows protests.
If your REALLY have to be REALLY perfect (remember, you're only looking at 3 points) go with the XZX's. In ten years you'll be pleading to the gods to have them wear out! They're rubbish. Oh, and I should say that they are nearly 40 year old rubbish.
Sorry to the Uber CW's, but I'll go with safety & performance. Yeah, burn me at the stake!
[/quote]
It still sounds to me for us 914-2L 4s - like you're going to lose 3 pts. - if any, as Pat & others say regarding level of judging & time allowed - ANY WAY YOU GO!
165HR15 Tubless Radial Vredesteins - DING! for not being a USA/OE supplier
165SR15 Michelin XZX Tubeless - DING! for not HR rated
165HR15 Michelin XAS Tube-type - DING! for not Tubeless
185/70VR15 Michelin XWX Tubeless - DING! for being an Optional Upgrade size
185/70VR15 Pirelli CN36 Tube-type - DOUBLE DING! for not Tubeless & not OE
195/65HR-VR15 Anything - DINGUS OFF! for everything - except for that official Porsche letter in German!?
...but they'll probably handle best of all - if not too heavy!
That's it - they're all over at PCA Rules Committees & Judging!
I'm tellin ya! ...it's a "tail-dragger" conspiracy to keep us 914s outta the runnin!!!!
Posted by: tod914 Jun 23 2009, 03:25 PM
I recently spoke to one of the owners at Eurotire ( 973 575-0080 ) in Fairfield NJ. Bill mentioned that they have been a Vredestein dealer since the 70s, and still carry their tires to this day. He mentioned a road and track tire test from 1976 as well. I'm sure he wouldn't mind answering more specific questions if either of you guys called him.
Posted by: Pat Garvey Jun 26 2009, 08:39 PM
[quote name='Tom_T' date='Jun 22 2009, 09:52 PM' post='1184301']
[quote name='Pat Garvey' date='Jun 22 2009, 06:49 PM' post='1184235']
[quote name='Tom_T' post='1184108' date='Jun 22 2009, 12:37 PM']
[quote name='Tom_T' post='1184043' date='Jun 22 2009, 10:25 AM']
[/quote]
I hereby rest my case! Unless you have a euro 914, Vredesteins are not proper. Shame on any PCA concours judge that rules it so for a US car, but having been one your judging minutes are so stressful that it would be easy to overlook. But, that's also why PCA allows protests.
If your REALLY have to be REALLY perfect (remember, you're only looking at 3 points) go with the XZX's. In ten years you'll be pleading to the gods to have them wear out! They're rubbish. Oh, and I should say that they are nearly 40 year old rubbish.
Sorry to the Uber CW's, but I'll go with safety & performance. Yeah, burn me at the stake!
[/quote]
It still sounds to me for us 914-2L 4s - like you're going to lose 3 pts. - if any, as Pat & others say regarding level of judging & time allowed - ANY WAY YOU GO!
165HR15 Tubless Radial Vredesteins - DING! for not being a USA/OE supplier
165SR15 Michelin XZX Tubeless - DING! for not HR rated
165HR15 Michelin XAS Tube-type - DING! for not Tubeless
185/70VR15 Michelin XWX Tubeless - DING! for being an Optional Upgrade size
185/70VR15 Pirelli CN36 Tube-type - DOUBLE DING! for not Tubeless & not OE
195/65HR-VR15 Anything - DINGUS OFF! for everything - except for that official Porsche letter in German!?
...but they'll probably handle best of all - if not too heavy!
That's it - they're all over at PCA Rules Committees & Judging!
I'm tellin ya! ...it's a "tail-dragger" conspiracy to keep us 914s outta the runnin!!!!
[/quote]
Tom,
What are you? A purist?
BTW good research!
I don't think it's a taildragger conspiracy. I think it's a few people who are trying to maintain 100% purity when it comes to tires. I honestly think that they think they are doing the right thing. Who knows, if I were a member of the Committee, I may lean towards those ends. But, I'm not.
Fact is, most of the tires you mentioned are unobtainable. If I could get a fresh set of Cn36's I'd.....well I'd go elsewhere.
I want contemporary materials, production methods and performance. No, I don't want to :pooch: my fenders with a baseball bat to make them fit. Nor do I want GT flares.
All I want is a contemporary tire that fits my wheels & fenders, without modification.
What I (personally) want id a tire that is the equivalent of the Yoko A008R's of 15 years ago. That way, I can autocross when I want to, rally when I want to, concours when I want to (yeah, I can afford the poits), and be safe. Oh, I also DON'T want them to cost 200 bucks apiece.
So....any guesses where I'm leaning?
Pat
Posted by: tod914 Jun 26 2009, 08:51 PM
As the tire turns... Pat's car remains on jackstands. I'm going for the Vanders on Monday. Very difficult choice, but they are reasonably priced. Painted my new boge oil shocks grey so what do you expect. Pat I see your point with the tires. Better drivability, saftey, etc. The difference in size can be negligable. Think you and your wife can make it out to the VW fest this year in Flanders?
Posted by: Tom_T Jun 26 2009, 09:47 PM
Pat & All,
All of those on the above & prior lists are currently available - if some by special order, via Lucas Automotive/Tires at the 1st link below, & they're located in Long Beach CA & Springfield, OH (just down the street from Bart Simpson ).
They can get anything which Longstone Tyres (UK) carries at the 2nd link below, because Lucas is Longstone's USA rep., but only the DOT approved ones are street legal (Robert below can tell you which are/aren't).
http://www.lucasclassictires.com/
http://www.longstonetyres.co.uk/radial.php
Email to Robert Montgomery at Lucas for questions, prices, etc.:
sales@lucasclassictires.com
He also told me that Pirelli is supposedly bringing back the CN36 in 165HR15 & has moved the tooling/molds to Ireland for production, but he doesn't know when.
EDITED 3-24-12
Posted by: Tom_T Jun 26 2009, 09:51 PM
EDITED - DELETE
Posted by: Tom_T Jun 27 2009, 04:06 PM
EDITED - DELETE
Posted by: Tom_T Jul 3 2009, 01:32 PM
Okay CW experts on 1973 2Ls out there - I need HELP!!!! 
I've been looking at a bunch of Fuchs 2L Alloys FS - mostly in sets of 4 & a few with 5, but from years mfgd all over the place, & have questions before I spend a bunch of coin on the wrong ones.
So how important is it that they all have the same mfg date stamped on the back for all 5 as in OE sets, &/or that they be from either the same 9/72 build date of my 914 or at least in the same 1973 MY????
But before you jump in to answer - consider the following:
My VIN 4732901954 was subject to the Fuchs 2L Alloy Wheel Replacement Program under the BO Recall for ALL 73 MY 2L cars produced up thru Dec. 1972, so that essentially NONE would have had matching wheel/car mfgr dates, since they were swapped out for later ones!
You can read the VW America/Porsche letters to the dealers with full instructions at the web link below, & the BO & BH Recalls are at the bottom of the page linked below, & the links in the right column thereon go to scanned pages of the dealer letters.
http://members.rennlist.com/914_collectibles/Recalls.htm
BO applies to the Fuchs 2L Alloys on 2.0's like mine (VIN...1954), BH to the M485 option's alloys - Pedrini & 4-lig Mahles I think (& for far less # of cars).
Both recalls were because the alloy wheels of all types subject to BO/BH were manufactured incorrectly & lacking the inset ring around the center hole into which fit the "new" self-centering hubs on the front as introduced in the 73 MY. They instruct dealers to pull off the wrong alloys & send them back for a new set to be sent at a future date TBD, & put steel wheels on temporarily. Ergo, returned wheels may also have been returned & re-machined with the inset, & then used on later build date 914s & not match some later 73MY cars as well!?
So - can I look for wheels that fall within a range of dates on the Fuchs Alloys (real ones of course), which would match the time period that the dealers might have taken to get "correct" wheels back from PAG/VWA????
...& if so, what is that date range to be acceptable to the CWs & judges at PCA, etc.?
BTW - mine either got 4 Rivieras & a steel spare instead, or the PO changed the Fuchs for those before I got the 914 in 12/75, so I'm trying to get it back to proper OE fitment.
TIA !!!!!!!
Posted by: tod914 Jul 29 2009, 02:49 PM
John Takehara, the National Concours chairman, was kind enough to respond to our tire question.
Dear Tod:
Vu forwarded your e-mail to me regarding the 914 tire size. First, let me say that I am a very active “lurker” on the 914world website and think that it is one of the best sites, second let me tell you that I have a 914 track car.
To answer your question:
In the Restoration Group and the Preservation Group, the Vredestein 165 HR 15 would be fine without loosing any points. Since that tire size is very difficult to find, I would say that the modern size of 195 65 H 15 would be suitable also.
I hope this helps,
John Takehara
National Concours Chairman
Posted by: Tom_T Jul 29 2009, 03:27 PM
EDITED - DELETE
Posted by: tod914 Jul 29 2009, 04:47 PM
Tom I ended up with the Conti procontacts 195 65 H 15s. What I noticed was, the Vre.'s. were narrower than my original spare, which is also a Conti. I did notice a difference in pick from the 195 60's to the 195 65. Well at the spedo is correct now.
Couple of my buddies with British sports cars have the Vre's. They said they love them. And after seeing them on their cars, that would be my choice over the Contis. Hindsight is always 20-20. I didn't like they way they looked when I seen them in the rack, but being mounted, does them justice. Priceing is so close, can't go wrong if you elect to get them.
Posted by: Tom_T Jul 29 2009, 05:27 PM
Tom I ended up with the Conti procontacts 195 65 H 15s. What I noticed was, the Vre.'s. were narrower than my original spare, which is also a Conti. I did notice a difference in pick from the 195 60's to the 195 65. Well at the spedo is correct now.
Couple of my buddies with British sports cars have the Vre's. They said they love them. And after seeing them on their cars, that would be my choice over the Contis. Hindsight is always 20-20. I didn't like they way they looked when I seen them in the rack, but being mounted, does them justice. Priceing is so close, can't go wrong if you elect to get them.
Tod - the Vred's tread pattern & width do seem to be patterned after the Coopers & other British "tyres" of the 1960's & `70's, as opposed to the OE Conti's, Michelin's & Dunlop SP57's of the same 165HR15 size back then. So they may have slightly less section width & resultant slightly smaller contact patch than a far more expensive & tubed Mich XAS - but not enough to worry about.
The Vred's tread pattern is very similar to my current c.1983 Kleber 165SR15 which I posted before on this thread - as the 914 holds down the blocks in my garage, so they'd probably handle pretty good too.
However, I wouldn't worry too much about the 20:20 thing on the Conti Procontact 195/65HR15s - particularly with the CW answer that you got & the fact that they will have a significantly larger contact patch than the OE 165s with only a nominal 1.6% speedo/odometer error!
It's only 0.8% error if you were to ever find reasonably priced 185/75HR15 (or VR), but I'm not paying $450+ each for Michelin's XWX VRs!!!! ...but that size was offered 'back in the day' by Porsche as part of the M471 Option package listed here: http://members.rennlist.com/914_collectibles/OpEq.htm
So either way you won't have the over mileage odometer problem you had with your other 914 running 195/60s or whatever they were.
Those Conti's are supposed to be excellent tires & the CWs & Judges apparently won't grade you down for them either!
Plus - I'll bet that those 195/65HR15 Conti Pro's are Pat Garvey's secret tires he's not telling anyone about!
Posted by: Pat Garvey Jul 29 2009, 07:55 PM
Tom I ended up with the Conti procontacts 195 65 H 15s. What I noticed was, the Vre.'s. were narrower than my original spare, which is also a Conti. I did notice a difference in pick from the 195 60's to the 195 65. Well at the spedo is correct now.
Couple of my buddies with British sports cars have the Vre's. They said they love them. And after seeing them on their cars, that would be my choice over the Contis. Hindsight is always 20-20. I didn't like they way they looked when I seen them in the rack, but being mounted, does them justice. Priceing is so close, can't go wrong if you elect to get them.
Tod - the Vred's tread pattern & width do seem to be patterned after the Coopers & other British "tyres" of the 1960's & `70's, as opposed to the OE Conti's, Michelin's & Dunlop SP57's of the same 165HR15 size back then. So they may have slightly less section width & resultant slightly smaller contact patch than a far more expensive & tubed Mich XAS - but not enough to worry about.
The Vred's tread pattern is very similar to my current c.1983 Kleber 165SR15 which I posted before on this thread - as the 914 holds down the blocks in my garage, so they'd probably handle pretty good too.
However, I wouldn't worry too much about the 20:20 thing on the Conti Procontact 195/65HR15s - particularly with the CW answer that you got & the fact that they will have a significantly larger contact patch than the OE 165s with only a nominal 1.6% speedo/odometer error!
It's only 0.8% error if you were to ever find reasonably priced 185/75HR15 (or VR), but I'm not paying $450+ each for Michelin's XWX VRs!!!! ...but that size was offered 'back in the day' by Porsche as part of the M471 Option package listed here: http://members.rennlist.com/914_collectibles/OpEq.htm
So either way you won't have the over mileage odometer problem you had with your other 914 running 195/60s or whatever they were.
Those Conti's are supposed to be excellent tires & the CWs & Judges apparently won't grade you down for them either!
Plus - I'll bet that those 195/65HR15 Conti Pro's are Pat Garvey's secret tires he's not telling anyone about!
Umm, no. Too many negative reviews. Decision still up in the air, but have other "fish to fry" right now. You may all be surprised.
Pat
Posted by: Tom_T Jul 29 2009, 08:50 PM
EDITED - DELETE
Posted by: Pat Garvey Jul 30 2009, 08:07 PM
Plus - I'll bet that those 195/65HR15 Conti Pro's are Pat Garvey's secret tires he's not telling anyone about!
Umm, no. Too many negative reviews. Decision still up in the air, but have other "fish to fry" right now. You may all be surprised.
Pat
Geez Pat - Tod & I keep trying to egg it out of you, but you refuse to spill the beans!
He's just going to keep us all in suspenders!
So....what kinda fish ya frying? ...fresh Trout?
Tire fish? When the 914 hits pavement this fall, you'll know.
Other "fish"....a problem with my 95 year old mother, which seems to have settled down for now.
Other "fish 2" - stay tuned. Could get interesting!
Pat
Posted by: Tom_T Nov 1 2009, 03:02 PM
FYI - RE: Semperit Tires being delivered on 914s & Porsches, as quoted on the pages noted from the period auto magazine articles contained within:
"PORSCHE 914 - Ultimate Portfolio", compiled by R.M. Clarke, publ. Brooklands Books Ltd., P.O. Box 146, Cobham, Surrey, KT11 1LG. UK, ISBN 1-85520-4320
- available thru B&N.com, Borders.com, Amazon.com, etc.
BTW - Great Reference! - this is an excellent compilation of many/most of the 914 related magazine articles from the era 1969-1976, as well as some post-era look-back reviews - all compiled within one softback volume. It sure beats buying used magazines to get each one!
Quotes from the above as noted:
"This is a 911T in its normal habitat. Porsche uses little known (in the U.S.) but very excellent Semperit radial tires as standard equipment." - emphasis added
- Photo caption on bottom left, at pp. 111, from: "Porsche" article, "Road Test" magazine, Jan. 1971 (starts on pp. 110)
...and to quell the next anticipated argument against there being any Semperit tires on US sold 914s....
"...The distributor had shown mercy on the test car with a set of wider , 5.5-inch chrome-plated wheels and larger 165 HR 15 Semperit radial tires...." - emphasis added
- Within second paragraph from end of article at pp.73, from: "Porsche 914 Road Test" article, "Road & Track" magazine, July 1970 (starts on pp. 69)
I rest my case - Semperit tires were both used by the factory on all Porsches in the model range during the 1970's, as well as being available here in the USA from the distributors.
Additionally, the changeover to self-centering "hub-centric" front hubs in the 1973 MY initial months, resulted in the BH (Mahle & Pedrini Alloys) & BO (Fuchs 2L Alloys) Factory Recalls, wherein the factory via the distributors supplied the dealers with replacement sets of wheels & tires with the appropriate hub-centric inset machined into the back of the alloy wheels.
Ergo, Semperit tires such as the 165HR15 on my spare in the pic in an earlier post here, was in fact the OE tire for my early 1973 914-2.0 originally sold in CA on 11/9/72 & built in September 1972 - on the new for 73 MY 914 hub-centric "Mag-look" steelie" probably due to dealer theft of the Fuchs spare! And they probably were on some other USA 914s along the way too! 
These were great handling tires which lasted 40,000 under most driving conditions - even a hard driving 914 or 911, as compared to the far more expensive soft-rubber Dunlop SP57s getting chewed up within 20,000 miles under even easy driving! The road tire tests of the day upheld this fact, with Semperits regularly performing as well or better than the pricier & oft touted Michelins, Continentals, Pirellis & Dunlops, etc., as well as against the USA domestic brands!
Too bad Semperit doesn't export great tires to the USA anymore, although they do still sell them in Euro-Land.
Any Euro-Teeners still using Semperits??
...if so, how are they??
Posted by: Pat Garvey Nov 3 2009, 07:51 PM
FYI - RE: Semperit Tires being delivered on 914s & Porsches, as quoted on the pages noted from the period auto magazine articles contained within:
"PORSCHE 914 - Ultimate Portfolio", compiled by R.M. Clarke, publ. Brooklands Books Ltd., P.O. Box 146, Cobham, Surrey, KT11 1LG. UK, ISBN 1-85520-4320
- available thru B&N.com, Borders.com, Amazon.com, etc.
BTW - Great Reference! - this is an excellent compilation of many/most of the 914 related magazine articles from the era 1969-1976, as well as some post-era look-back reviews - all compiled within one softback volume.
It sure beats buying used magazines to get each one! Quotes from the above as noted:
"This is a 911T in its normal habitat. Porsche uses little known (in the U.S.) but very excellent Semperit radial tires as standard equipment." - emphasis added
- Photo caption on bottom left, at pp. 111, from: "Porsche" article, "Road Test" magazine, Jan. 1971 (starts on pp. 110)
...and to quell the next anticipated argument against there being any Semperit tires on US sold 914s...."...The distributor had shown mercy on the test car with a set of wider , 5.5-inch chrome-plated wheels and larger 165 HR 15 Semperit radial tires...." - emphasis added
- Within second paragraph from end of article at pp.73, from: "Porsche 914 Road Test" article, "Road & Track" magazine, July 1970 (starts on pp. 69)
I rest my case - Semperit tires were both used by the factory on all Porsches in the model range during the 1970's, as well as being available here in the USA from the distributors.
Additionally, the changeover to self-centering "hub-centric" front hubs in the 1973 MY initial months, resulted in the BH (Mahle & Pedrini Alloys) & BO (Fuchs 2L Alloys) Factory Recalls, wherein the factory via the distributors supplied the dealers with replacement sets of wheels & tires with the appropriate hub-centric inset machined into the back of the alloy wheels.
Ergo, Semperit tires such as the 165HR15 on my spare in the pic in an earlier post here, was in fact the OE tire for my early 1973 914-2.0 originally sold in CA on 11/9/72 & built in September 1972 - on the new for 73 MY 914 hub-centric "Mag-look" steelie" probably due to dealer theft of the Fuchs spare! And they probably were on some other USA 914s along the way too!
These were great handling tires which lasted 40,000 under most driving conditions - even a hard driving 914 or 911, as compared to the far more expensive soft-rubber Dunlop SP57s getting chewed up within 20,000 miles under even easy driving! The road tire tests of the day upheld this fact, with Semperits regularly performing as well or better than the pricier & oft touted Michelins, Continentals, Pirellis & Dunlops, etc., as well as against the USA domestic brands!
Too bad Semperit doesn't export great tires to the USA anymore, although they do still sell them in Euro-Land.
Any Euro-Teeners still using Semperits??
...if so, how are they??
Umm, don't think I'd rely on that spare after these many years. Still have my original Conti spare for my 72, which looks great & hold air under no stress, but I'd never put it on the road.
Sorry, never used Semperits. Went from Conti to Pirelli CN36's, which is another story.
Pat
Posted by: Tom_T Nov 4 2009, 03:53 AM
EDITED - DELETE
Posted by: jcb29 May 11 2010, 06:28 PM
I’m in the process of revitalizing my ’75 2.0 that has been sitting in my garage since the ‘80s (no time or money). The PO painted (and I use the term loosely) the stock steel wheels WHITE. Vintage photos indicate those wheels should be GREY.
My question – what is the correct GREY color?
Posted by: Porsche Rescue May 11 2010, 06:34 PM
Best choice is Wurth metallic silver wheel paint topped with their clear. Expensive, but closest to original finish. Comes in spray cans from various online sources.
Posted by: Tom_T May 11 2010, 06:36 PM
I’m in the process of revitalizing my ’75 2.0 that has been sitting in my garage since the ‘80s (no time or money). The PO painted (and I use the term loosely) the stock steel wheels WHITE. Vintage photos indicate those wheels should be GREY.
My question – what is the correct GREY color?
You'll need to be more specific about the type of wheels that you're talking about, & maybe post pix of them for folks on here to see what you're dealing with DAPO-wise!
Pedrini & Mahle 4 lug Alloys were painted silver, Fuchs 2 Liter Alloys were polished with satin background anodized & the steelies were either Silver or black or a color depending upon year & model/engine of 914 & optional equipment. The grey you saw in old pix may have just been silver?
A 75 2.0 could've had any of the above wheels originally (steel "star" mag-style would've been silver), but we don't know which wheels you're talking about yet!
Posted by: Porsche Rescue May 11 2010, 07:23 PM
He wrote "stock steel" Tom. On a '75 they would have been these.
Wurth silver.
Posted by: jcb29 May 11 2010, 07:37 PM
Thanks for the clarification on the wheel color. I did a double take when I saw the picture of the Scarlet Red car pop up. That's probably exactly the way mine would have looked from the factory.
Thanks again.
Posted by: Porsche Rescue May 11 2010, 07:45 PM
The red car has chrome trim rings added. Not stock, but a look I like on the steel wheels. Your wheels came with black plastic lug bolt head covers, in case they are no longer present.
Posted by: Tom_T May 11 2010, 07:51 PM
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Posted by: jcb29 May 11 2010, 07:51 PM
Yes, I noticed the chrome trim rings. Mine do not have the rings, however, all the black plastic lug bolt caps are still present and accounted for. Bought some 4 bolt Fuch's to put on anyway.
Posted by: Tom_T May 11 2010, 07:54 PM
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Posted by: Tom_T May 11 2010, 08:02 PM
Yes, I noticed the chrome trim rings. Mine do not have the rings, however, all the black plastic lug bolt caps are still present and accounted for. Bought some 4 bolt Fuch's to put on anyway.
If you need those Fuchs 2L's restored, Weideman Wheels in Oroville CA & Al Reed Polishing in Anaheim CA do outstanding work & both come highly recommended here. They can fix any rash, repolish the petals & rims, satin background & re-anodize them back to the OE finish for you. At 10 lbs. each they're not too heavy to ship, but may be cheaper as singles or double from TX.
BTW - the OE silver cad/zinc plated lug bolts for those may still be available from Porsche at about $17 each. Otherwise, repro chrome ones are also available - but check that they're the proper thread lag/space at the top & acorn shape to fir the inset in the wheel - one vendor on TheSamba in San Antonio does what appear to be the proper fitment repros (near you maybe). But the center caps are NLA, so there are some NOS that come up at the usual online places, plus repros at AA or billet aluminum repors from several sources at TheSamba, etc.
Good Luck with those too ~ you'll like the look!
Posted by: Pat Garvey May 11 2010, 08:23 PM
Not my intention here to do anything but ask a question. I am not too familiar with the "starburst" steelies, so I wonder if the factory used a clearcoat over the silver. Just asking, because I had my 72 steelies redone years ago in Wurth silve & clearcoat & they've held up well. Not original, but I like them, and they don't oxidize. Just curious.
Pat
Posted by: Tom_T May 11 2010, 08:36 PM
Not my intention here to do anything but ask a question. I am not too familiar with the "starburst" steelies, so I wonder if the factory used a clearcoat over the silver. Just asking, because I had my 72 steelies redone years ago in Wurth silve & clearcoat & they've held up well. Not original, but I like them, and they don't oxidize. Just curious.
Pat
I'm not sure Pat, but I kinda doubt that they used a clear coat on the wheels. Back then all of the non-metallic body colors were color coats only, with only the 3=step metallics having a clear coat. That said, what you & the others have done to clear coat makes sense, since it protects the silver (or other color) paint from the acidic brake dust, road salts, etc.
Does anyone know if the silver painted Mahles & Pedrinis were originally clear-coated back in the day from the factory?
... another just curious!?
Posted by: Porsche Rescue May 11 2010, 08:53 PM
My guess is that clear was not used in the day. Not really essential now either, especially if the car is not going to see hard use. I used it on the sets I have done because it was so much work to prep the wheels that I wanted to protect my work.
Posted by: tod914 May 15 2010, 08:05 PM
The 74 I sold, had the original steel wheel and tire. No clear coat was on it. The back of the wheel was sprayed black. And not very well.
Posted by: Tom_T May 15 2010, 11:27 PM
The 74 I sold, had the original steel wheel and tire. No clear coat was on it. The back of the wheel was sprayed black. And not very well.
Tod, they were all that way. I think they were painted black first, then the silver - which dusted over onto the back side which gave it the "not very well painted" look.
Afterall, they were just VW workers!
Posted by: Pat Garvey May 16 2010, 07:15 PM
The 74 I sold, had the original steel wheel and tire. No clear coat was on it. The back of the wheel was sprayed black. And not very well.
Tod, they were all that way. I think they were painted black first, then the silver - which dusted over onto the back side which gave it the "not very well painted" look.
Afterall, they were just VW workers!
Agree with you Tom. On my 72, the wheels were black on the back & front nut center - silver dusting on the fronts. I changed that to make them more attractive. Yes, I'm guilty of non-original steels wheel finish. Doesn't matter, because my chromies will be there for the rest of my life anyway.
Shame on me!
Pat
Posted by: tod914 May 16 2010, 10:01 PM
Ahh black first. That makes sence.
Posted by: Tom_T May 17 2010, 01:30 AM
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Posted by: DanT Jun 17 2010, 05:33 PM
or you can really go non concours and do this with your Fuchs....
looks pretty good on the L908 '75 I am building
Attached image(s)
Posted by: RFoulds Aug 20 2010, 12:26 PM
I am refinishing my original Late-Steel wheels. The car came with two sets, one set of Rivieras, and the original steelies from 1974. The spare is in place and in fine shape. The other four were left outside for 20+ years.
So, they are off to be sandblasted right now, and I plan to re-spray asap. I had assumed Wurth Silver would be a close match to factory, but now I find that I can't get it shipped here to CA!
Anyone know where I can buy it WITHIN CA, si don't have to have it shipped into the state?
As for tires, I have all 5 of the originally equipped Michelins. The Riv's will be trod with something fitting for road use, while the Steelies will have the original tired re-mounted.
Posted by: Tom_T Aug 20 2010, 10:40 PM
I am refinishing my original Late-Steel wheels. The car came with two sets, one set of Rivieras, and the original steelies from 1974. The spare is in place and in fine shape. The other four were left outside for 20+ years.
So, they are off to be sandblasted right now, and I plan to re-spray asap. I had assumed Wurth Silver would be a close match to factory, but now I find that I can't get it shipped here to CA!
Anyone know where I can buy it WITHIN CA, si don't have to have it shipped into the state?
As for tires, I have all 5 of the originally equipped Michelins. The Riv's will be trod with something fitting for road use, while the Steelies will have the original tired re-mounted.
Randy -
Try GPR, Pelican or Sierra Madre Collection for the Wurth. IIRC - PP shipped me some Wurth Primer earlier this year too, from FL.
I wouldn't trust those original Michi's to be road safe - even to/around a CdE event, but if yours was an 1.8L IIRC, there are several 165SR15 options out there which would be new, road safe & period correct. From Kumho, Bridgestone, to Michelin. If yours is a 2.0, then the 165HR15 are much more limited, or you got to 185/70VR15 XWX Michi for vintage upsize, or 195/65HR15 for current make upsize.
If you want the vintage type Mich XZX, XWX, XAS - new, then try Lucas Tires in Long Beach - worth a drive to the coast (John Ferguson there IIRC, as mentioned in my older post to someone else above), but they're not cheap, which you can check online (Longstone/Lucas, Coker, Universal, etc. all have a few vintage new made tires with pricing online)!
Posted by: Pat Garvey Aug 23 2010, 06:18 PM
I am refinishing my original Late-Steel wheels. The car came with two sets, one set of Rivieras, and the original steelies from 1974. The spare is in place and in fine shape. The other four were left outside for 20+ years.
So, they are off to be sandblasted right now, and I plan to re-spray asap. I had assumed Wurth Silver would be a close match to factory, but now I find that I can't get it shipped here to CA!
Anyone know where I can buy it WITHIN CA, si don't have to have it shipped into the state?
As for tires, I have all 5 of the originally equipped Michelins. The Riv's will be trod with something fitting for road use, while the Steelies will have the original tired re-mounted.
Try WolfsburgWest.
Pat
Posted by: RFoulds Aug 31 2010, 07:33 PM
Pat and all,
the wheels are looking good. almost done. I have to rub them down with 0000 steel wool and then polish.
the old Michelins were too far gone to remount. so for OE looking tires, I am going to with Michelin XZX in 165SR15. Coker has them for $150 a piece.
Before I order though, I need advice on a possible substitute. There is a 165HR15 from Vredestein available, for only $100 each. Saving $200 sounds great but never heard of this tire.
Will it cost me points in CW?
Posted by: Porsche Rescue Aug 31 2010, 08:14 PM
Vredestein is a European brand and was around in the '70's. It was never original equipment on Porsches but was a common replacement tire. I bought a set of 155's for my steel OE '70 wheels (4.5") and am very pleased with them.
They are "period correct". Of course the XZX Michelins are closer to original equipment but not exact. The factory tire was the ZX.
Posted by: Tom_T Sep 1 2010, 11:37 AM
Vredestein is a European brand and was around in the '70's. It was never original equipment on Porsches but was a common replacement tire. I bought a set of 155's for my steel OE '70 wheels (4.5") and am very pleased with them.
They are "period correct". Of course the XZX Michelins are closer to original equipment but not exact. The factory tire was the ZX.
Hey Jim, according to the Vredstein factory folks, they were one of the suppliers to Porsche & on 914s for Euro cars only (I think I posted their reply email in the O&H Tires thread), as were Semperit, Continental & Dunlop. Tires & mfgrs. varied over the years, models & whatever subcontract came up at the time, so various Michi X-series tires were used.
IIRC Pat Garvey's 72 914 had Conti's originally & my 73 2L had Semperit 401's on it from the factory (unless the dealership swapped the Dunlops/Fuchs for the 1st buyer - I'm 2nd owner), & I know a couple of other 914 original owners who had Sempi's as OE. Those Sempi's were great tires, handling as well as the Dunlops SP57's but lasted 3x as long!
Posted by: Pat Garvey Oct 28 2010, 06:34 PM
Pat and all,
the wheels are looking good. almost done. I have to rub them down with 0000 steel wool and then polish.
the old Michelins were too far gone to remount. so for OE looking tires, I am going to with Michelin XZX in 165SR15. Coker has them for $150 a piece.
Before I order though, I need advice on a possible substitute. There is a 165HR15 from Vredestein available, for only $100 each. Saving $200 sounds great but never heard of this tire.
Will it cost me points in CW?
Hell with the tires!
Ca we see pics of the wheels?
Pat
Posted by: RFoulds Oct 29 2010, 12:10 PM
Hey Pat,
I posted them somewhere on here a few weeks back. I think they came out pretty good. I had the original spare to compare to (the one with the michelin mounted in pic), which was a great reference.
I sprayed the backs with Wurth Satin black, then the fronts with Wurth White. pics were taken at sunset, so a little dark. color looks just right compared to the OE spare.
Posted by: Tom_T Nov 2 2010, 11:36 PM
Pat and all,
the wheels are looking good. almost done. I have to rub them down with 0000 steel wool and then polish.
the old Michelins were too far gone to remount. so for OE looking tires, I am going to with Michelin XZX in 165SR15. Coker has them for $150 a piece.
Before I order though, I need advice on a possible substitute. There is a 165HR15 from Vredestein available, for only $100 each. Saving $200 sounds great but never heard of this tire.
Will it cost me points in CW?
According to the Zone 8 Judging class I took in March, they won't judge the originality aspects (e.g.: tires) at local Zone 8 CdE events, only at Parade, & some regional events in the case of "tie breakers". Vredesteins have been on Parade winners from that era.
Posted by: RFoulds Nov 3 2010, 10:37 AM
Thanks for the info. Will be hard for this car to win, since it really is all about originality, and not how well I detail it.
But, gonna give it a try anyway.
Posted by: Tom_T Nov 4 2010, 09:50 AM
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Posted by: RFoulds Nov 4 2010, 10:24 AM
Not sure yet. My schedule has been screwed up. I had hope to make the Santa Barbara region event as the first on my schedule, but car is not ready.
I got seriously delayed when I decided to have the ECU and MAF completely rebuilt, instead of replacing them with used/unkown parts. That cost me 5 weeks of waiting, and a lot more cash.
I haven't even tried to fire the engine yet. All parts are back, and now we have to get back to work on it.
Unfortunately, my son's Camaro jumped in line. I have to either put new heads on an old worn out V8 or find a crate engine he can afford.
But, 914 is in good hands. It sits on a lift at a very clean shop, waiting for us.
When would the next Zone 8 event be??
Posted by: Tom_T Nov 4 2010, 10:40 AM
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Posted by: Pat Garvey Nov 6 2010, 07:31 PM
Hey Pat,
I posted them somewhere on here a few weeks back. I think they came out pretty good. I had the original spare to compare to (the one with the michelin mounted in pic), which was a great reference.
I sprayed the backs with Wurth Satin black, then the fronts with Wurth White. pics were taken at sunset, so a little dark. color looks just right compared to the OE spare.
NICE! Great job.
Pat
Posted by: Tom_T Feb 24 2011, 07:40 PM
Well, if you've trudged through all these pages of posts on wheels & tires, by now you know that you'd really LOVE to put a brand new roadworthy set of those fine grippy & period correct Dunlop SP57's on your 914 - & on your 60's-80's 911 & 912 too! Sooooo.......
Well if you've always wanted to re-shoe your concours baby, garage queen or really nice driver - or any 914 - in the OEM Dunlop SP57 Tires, here's a chance to weigh in on what they're worth to you, in order to try to interest Dunlop in doing a limited production run at their UK vintage tire plant.
Go here:
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?sho...=115150&st=
Doowit!!!!
Posted by: jetdriver Mar 28 2011, 12:33 PM
I have a 75 Appearance group 1.8 with a set of Eppies (sp?) currently on the car.
I have the original rims that came with the car, and am begining to restore them.
I have been told that they came with Hub Caps. If so, does anyone have a picture or know where to buy an original set of hubcaps? If so, what is the price range?
Much appreciated.
Thank you!
Tom
Posted by: RFoulds Mar 28 2011, 12:55 PM
Tom and Pat would know for sure, but I am 90% sure the 1975 steel wheel had no hubcaps.
First, are you sure they are the correct wheels for that car? Check with PCNA and get the Certificate of Authenticity. it should say which wheel option was on car when delivered. If it is an appearance group package, I would think it had Fuchs on it when delivered.
But, if for some reason it came with steel wheels, the later cars, 1973(?) an on had steel wheels with small center caps, not hubcaps or beauty rings. Like my avatar.
,
Posted by: Porsche Rescue Mar 28 2011, 12:56 PM
Steel '75 wheels did not have hubcaps, only a black plastic cap in the center and plastic covers on the lug bolt heads.
Posted by: Tom_T Mar 28 2011, 01:15 PM
I have a 75 Appearance group 1.8 with a set of Eppies (sp?) currently on the car.
I have the original rims that came with the car, and am begining to restore them.
I have been told that they came with Hub Caps. If so, does anyone have a picture or know where to buy an original set of hubcaps? If so, what is the price range?
Much appreciated.
Thank you!
Tom
Tom -
PS ... I'm over in Orange & several here are around OC!
PCA has an informal Porsches & Doughnuts at Krispy Kreme parking lot at The Block shopping center in Orange off the 22 at State College/City Center exit every 3rd Sat. am 8:30-10-ish. PM or email to me if you're going to show up & I'll meet you there.
IIRC the 75 1.8 would've either been the steel "star mag look" wheels that RFoulds showed restored in his earlier post in this topic - no hub caps were used (70-72 had hub caps prior to the intro of the mag look steelies). By using the mag look steelie, they eliminated the need to include the extra 4 hubcap parts & saved costs, while giving customers a more desired wheel style (same look as on Super Beetles).
However, I thought that usually the Appearance Group included the optional allow wheels as part of the package, but that may have changed as they started decoupling options for more profit & to offset DM to $ exchange rate escalation.
The OO could've done an item delete on the alloy wheels to get a price break - if they were included in the App. Grp., or the dealer could've swapped out alloys for steelies on another customers car, and then either sold it at an adjusted/lower price without them (or maybe just not told the buyer they were "missing" - as they did with many 914's spare being swapped for a steelie without telling the customer.
Otherwise the orig. buyer had the option for upgrade to either Mahle 4-lug "Baby Gas Burner" alloys, Pedrini alloys (if still available in 74/75 when your 1.8 was originally sold), or the Fuchs 2L style alloys - at extra cost.
You should check your 914's original window sticker or dealer sales invoice from when it was originally sold new for what was included on it, or if you don't have that, then contact Porsche PCNA to get a COA which should list what was included if it had optional wheels beyond the App. Grp. If only App. Grp., then it will only list that & other 75 owners will need to chime in on what theirs' included.
You can look at other COAs from 75 MY at Jeff Bowlsby's website here -
http://bowlsby.net/914/Classic/WindowStickers.htm
FYI - 73-76 Wheel Options:
73-76 Mag Style Steel Wheels (standard fitment):
73-76 Fuchs 2L 4-lug Alloy:
73-76 Mahle 4-lug Alloy:
73-74 -75? -76? Pedrini 4-lug Alloy:
Note that the Fuchs & Mahles include the OE center caps to cover the hubs' grease caps (some call those "hub caps").
.
..... and .....
This was the wheel & hubcap look from 70-72 MYs:
... Hey!!!! ..... I'm talking about the hub cap & wheels here - not the "Baby Moons"!
Posted by: Tom_T Mar 28 2011, 01:22 PM
Tom and Pat would know for sure, but I am 90% sure the 1975 steel wheel had no hubcaps.
First, are you sure they are the correct wheels for that car? Check with PCNA and get the Certificate of Authenticity. it should say which wheel option was on car when delivered. If it is an appearance group package, I would think it had Fuchs on it when delivered.
But, if for some reason it came with steel wheels, the later cars, 1973(?) an on had steel wheels with small center caps, not hubcaps or beauty rings. Like my avatar.
,
The App Grp for 1.7 & 1.8s came "standard" with either Pedrini or Mahle 4-lugs, but they could also order them with the Fuchs/App. Grp. set-up or have the dealer swap them (as Pat G. has related from when he bought his 72 914/4).
The 2.0's App Grp came with the 2L Fuchs - except the painted Mahles on 74 LEs, but the buyer could opt for Mahle or Pedrini instead.
BTW - joining PCA saves you something like $20 off the COA, & if you have the window sticker & send a copy to them - then PCNA will discount it more, so you save almost half of the $42 annual fee - plus PCA gets 20% off from dealers several times a year around SoCal (some dealers may do it always) - so there's the rest of the fee "saved"!
Anyone have a pic of the 73-76 Steelie's black center cap & lug caps they can post here for him? I don't have anything handy.
Posted by: Tom_T Mar 28 2011, 01:24 PM
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Posted by: Pat Garvey Mar 28 2011, 07:45 PM
Tom and Pat would know for sure, but I am 90% sure the 1975 steel wheel had no hubcaps.
First, are you sure they are the correct wheels for that car? Check with PCNA and get the Certificate of Authenticity. it should say which wheel option was on car when delivered. If it is an appearance group package, I would think it had Fuchs on it when delivered.
But, if for some reason it came with steel wheels, the later cars, 1973(?) an on had steel wheels with small center caps, not hubcaps or beauty rings. Like my avatar.
,
The App Grp for 1.7 & 1.8s came "standard" with either Pedrini or Mahle 4-lugs, but they could also order them with the Fuchs/App. Grp. set-up or have the dealer swap them (as Pat G. has related from when he bought his 72 914/4).
The 2.0's App Grp came with the 2L Fuchs - except the painted Mahles on 74 LEs, but the buyer could opt for Mahle or Pedrini instead.
BTW - joining PCA saves you something like $20 off the COA, & if you have the window sticker & send a copy to them - then PCNA will discount it more, so you save almost half of the $42 annual fee - plus PCA gets 20% off from dealers several times a year around SoCal (some dealers may do it always) - so there's the rest of the fee "saved"!
Anyone have a pic of the 73-76 Steelie's black center cap & lug caps they can post here for him? I don't have anything handy.
OK, I think there's a little confusion here.
Tom, 1.7 cars with app grp got wider non-styled steelies. Alloy wheels were an option above everything else. The 1.8 cars with app grp also did not recieve alloys as parts of the package. On 1.7's and 1.8's alloys were always an additional option, no matter which alloy.
The "star" type steelies did have a black dust cap. The earlier steelies did not, because they had a hubcap. Of course, all had bearing caps underneath.
Pat
Posted by: Tom_T Mar 28 2011, 09:53 PM
OK, I think there's a little confusion here.
Tom, 1.7 cars with app grp got wider non-styled steelies. Alloy wheels were an option above everything else. The 1.8 cars with app grp also did not recieve alloys as parts of the package. On 1.7's and 1.8's alloys were always an additional option, no matter which alloy.
The "star" type steelies did have a black dust cap. The earlier steelies did not, because they had a hubcap. Of course, all had bearing caps underneath.
Pat
Thanx for clarifying Pat.
Since for the 73 MY on the standard steel wheel was the 5.5" wide x 15" - so I was thinking that at least the 73 MY 1.7s had the alloys included in the App. Grp., but wasn't sure for 74-76, nor 70-72 since they still had the 15" x 4.5" steelies standard then. If I find where I got that idea, then I'll post the info. here.
In any case, as I & the others noted to "the other Tom from HB" above, he needs to verify with the window sticker, dealer invoice &/or COA what wheels were originally on his 75 1.8 & restore those, or resource the OE ones noted if that is not the ones he has.
Similarly, as I'd said here before, my 73 2.0 that I bought used in Dec. 75 had Rivieras & a steel spare when I got it - instead of the Fuchs 2L alloys it came with from the factory, so I had to research & verify that, then resource a set of Fuchs 2Ls. Sometimes POs or dealers just changed wheels from the OE fitment!
Posted by: Pat Garvey Mar 29 2011, 04:29 PM
OK, I think there's a little confusion here.
Tom, 1.7 cars with app grp got wider non-styled steelies. Alloy wheels were an option above everything else. The 1.8 cars with app grp also did not recieve alloys as parts of the package. On 1.7's and 1.8's alloys were always an additional option, no matter which alloy.
The "star" type steelies did have a black dust cap. The earlier steelies did not, because they had a hubcap. Of course, all had bearing caps underneath.
Pat
Thanx for clarifying Pat.
Since for the 73 MY on the standard steel wheel was the 5.5" wide x 15" - so I was thinking that at least the 73 MY 1.7s had the alloys included in the App. Grp., but wasn't sure for 74-76, nor 70-72 since they still had the 15" x 4.5" steelies standard then. If I find where I got that idea, then I'll post the info. here.
In any case, as I & the others noted to "the other Tom from HB" above, he needs to verify with the window sticker, dealer invoice &/or COA what wheels were originally on his 75 1.8 & restore those, or resource the OE ones noted if that is not the ones he has.
Similarly, as I'd said here before, my 73 2.0 that I bought used in Dec. 75 had Rivieras & a steel spare when I got it - instead of the Fuchs 2L alloys it came with from the factory, so I had to research & verify that, then resource a set of Fuchs 2Ls. Sometimes POs or dealers just changed wheels from the OE fitment!
Yeah Tom, I've posted this previously (long time ago) but when I took delivery of my 72 the 73 2.0's were were just dribbling in. The dealer offered to swap my steelies for "takeoffs" from the 2.0's at a price, as I recall, of 200 bucks. I was at my limit at $4295 & really didn't like them that much at the time. Good deal then, but my originality would have been ruined. Many of the Porsche/Audi dealers of the day were sleezebags. Wait a minute, has that changed?
Pat
Posted by: Tom_T Mar 30 2011, 07:13 PM
Many of the Porsche/Audi dealers of the day were sleezebags. Wait a minute, has that changed?
Pat
Yeah Pat, now they're just "Porsche" dealers, having dropped the "...+Audi"!
I had a chance to peruse the window stickers 73-76 on Jeff's site the other nite, and they all listed the 5.5x15 steel wheels under the Appearance Group if optioned on that 1.7 or 1.8. So they weren't included under Appearance Group for 1.7/1.8 - and IIRC not for some MY late-73 & for 74-76 2.0s either.
I think it was the Performance/Sport Group of options which had the sway bars F&R and Alloy wheels in the USA (Euro/RoW also added the H4 headlights to the Sport Group) that I was remembering would've been including the alloys.
In any case, an owner will need the Munroney widow sticker (or dealer invoice if it lists the options & groups) or a COA to confirm what was on the 914 originally, then hope that the PCNA staff read & interpreted the option codes correctly on the COA!
EDITED 3-24-12
Posted by: Pat Garvey Mar 31 2011, 05:03 PM
Many of the Porsche/Audi dealers of the day were sleezebags. Wait a minute, has that changed?
Pat
Yeah Pat, now they're just "Porsche" dealers, having dropped the "...+Audi"!
I had a chance to peruse the window stickers 73-76 on Jeff's site the other nite, and they all listed the 5.5x15 steel wheels under the Appearance Group if optioned on that 1.7 or 1.8. So they weren't included under Appearance Group for 1.7/1.8 - and IIRC not for 2.0s either.
I think it was the Performance/Sport Group of options which had the sway bars F&R and Alloy wheels in the USA (Euro/RoW also added the H4 headlights to the Sport Group) that I was remembering would've been including the alloys.
In any case, an owner will need the Munroney widow sticker (or dealer invoice if it lists the options & groups) or a COA to confirm what was on the 914 originally, then hope that the PCNA staff read & interpreted the option codes correctly on the COA!
Otherwise you end up with Pat's 72 914/4 COA's infamous "Norwegian Options" -
They didn't use Monroney stickers in those days. In fact, the window sticker and dealer installed sticker was all hey had. They weren't regulated at all.
Posted by: Tom_T Mar 31 2011, 09:02 PM
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Posted by: 1970 Neun vierzehn Apr 1 2011, 06:13 PM
They didn't use Monroney stickers in those days. In fact, the window sticker and dealer installed sticker was all hey had. They weren't regulated at all.
I cannot speak for Pat's 1972 purchase specifically, but the Monroney Label , or sticker, became a requirement of manufacturers to afix to new cars in the late 1950s. By the time 1970 rolled around, the manufacturer's window sticker was at least a decade old practice. The first new car that I purchased in the latter part of 1970, a 1971 Toyota Corolla, had the Monroney Sticker on the window.
Posted by: Tom_T Apr 1 2011, 08:53 PM
EDITED - DELETE
Posted by: StarBear Apr 26 2011, 07:28 PM
Seeking some replacement tire advice - finally about to replace my 15-yr old Conti Contacts with some new rubber. They're not really worn as don't drive it too much any more (and never in rain or snow) but don't feel very safe driving on such old tires. Have '74 1.8L w/ Appearance Group and Fuchs alloys.
Looking at Conti ProContacts at 195SR65/15 and see very wide diversity of reviews. Only use it for occasional (<750 mi/yr), local driving - nothing hard or long, so looking for comfortable ride and good handling in dry weather and not too expensive. Not too worried about tire noise (who can hear the tires on these cars anyway?)
Would these be a good/fair choice? Other superior suggestions given the driving habits and not wanting to spend gobs of money?
Thanks!
Posted by: Pat Garvey Apr 26 2011, 08:11 PM
They didn't use Monroney stickers in those days. In fact, the window sticker and dealer installed sticker was all hey had. They weren't regulated at all.
I cannot speak for Pat's 1972 purchase specifically, but the Monroney Label , or sticker, became a requirement of manufacturers to afix to new cars in the late 1950s. By the time 1970 rolled around, the manufacturer's window sticker was at least a decade old practice. The first new car that I purchased in the latter part of 1970, a 1971 Toyota Corolla, had the Monroney Sticker on the window.
I think Paul is correct. However, at the time I bought my 72, I lived in Kentucky. That state had a sales tax based on the window sticker, regardless of what you paid for the vehicle (same today? Don't know). So my window sticker was forciblt sent to the state of KY, where it probably resides today, to determine the sales tax on the 914. Never saw it after the day I bought the car! Mayube Ky changed subsequently because I have the window sticker from the '88 Audi 90 that I bought. Both cars purchased in Cincinnati, mind you. That's the way KY worked - maximize revenue. But this only applied to new vehicles.
In 1974 I bought a '70 911E Sporto from a fellow in Tennesse. The hydro struts were collapsed, so he reported the sales value to KY as $1500. That's what I paid sales tax on. Speed forward.....to 1992. Bought my 73 911T from a friend in Ohio. Though it had no problems, we agreed that the RSR F&R bumpers detracted from it's taxable value. As in the first case, The market value was reduced. I paid taxes based on a $4600 value assigned by the original owner. In both cases I paid way more than the stated value by the seller. My feeling in all cases is that Kentucky sales tax should be based on the sales value - period. I was robbed on the 914, but made out on the 911's. Every other car that I bought new I was ripped off on. Every other used car (924) I made out on. Maybe it just works out over the long run!
Pat
Posted by: RFoulds Apr 27 2011, 10:17 AM
Seeking some replacement tire advice - finally about to replace my 15-yr old Conti Contacts with some new rubber. They're not really worn as don't drive it too much any more (and never in rain or snow) but don't feel very safe driving on such old tires. Have '74 1.8L w/ Appearance Group and Fuchs alloys.
Looking at Conti ProContacts at 195SR65/15 and see very wide diversity of reviews. Only use it for occasional (<750 mi/yr), local driving - nothing hard or long, so looking for comfortable ride and good handling in dry weather and not too expensive. Not too worried about tire noise (who can hear the tires on these cars anyway?)
Would these be a good/fair choice? Other superior suggestions given the driving habits and not wanting to spend gobs of money?
Thanks!
Top 3 tires I would look at are:
Kumho KR2, $72 each. Great tire for the price. very grippy
Bridgestone Pole Position, RE960AS, $85, sticky, good treadwear rating
DunlopSP60, $72, old school look good treadwear.
also, just saw Sumitomo HTR200 on sale at Tirerack for $68. great deal!
Posted by: Tom_T Apr 27 2011, 02:12 PM
Seeking some replacement tire advice - finally about to replace my 15-yr old Conti Contacts with some new rubber. They're not really worn as don't drive it too much any more (and never in rain or snow) but don't feel very safe driving on such old tires. Have '74 1.8L w/ Appearance Group and Fuchs alloys.
Looking at Conti ProContacts at 195SR65/15 and see very wide diversity of reviews. Only use it for occasional (<750 mi/yr), local driving - nothing hard or long, so looking for comfortable ride and good handling in dry weather and not too expensive. Not too worried about tire noise (who can hear the tires on these cars anyway?)
Would these be a good/fair choice? Other superior suggestions given the driving habits and not wanting to spend gobs of money?
Thanks!
Top 3 tires I would look at are:
Kumho KR2, $72 each. Great tire for the price. very grippy
Bridgestone Pole Position, RE960AS, $85, sticky, good treadwear rating
DunlopSP60, $72, old school look good treadwear.
also, just saw Sumitomo HTR200 on sale at Tirerack for $68. great deal!
If you're looking for the vintage look & size, Lucas, Coker, etc. still sell the Michelin XZX 165SR15 which are a good balance of handling & mileage, also Kumho & Bridgestone/Firestone sell a 165SR15 are similar & less pricey.
Posted by: RichardFDR May 18 2011, 01:29 PM
So, I have eight wheels for a 914. One set of four lug Fuchs with black paint on them and one shiny set of other ones that are gas burners I think, also with black paint. Am I correct in thinking neither is factory spec? Of the two sets I prefer the Fuchs. How best can I restore them to new, or should I ask that question in another thread?
Many thanks
Richard
Attached image(s)
Posted by: Tom_T May 18 2011, 01:53 PM
So, I have eight wheels for a 914. One set of four lug Fuchs with black paint on them and one shiny set of other ones that are gas burners I think, also with black paint. Am I correct in thinking neither is factory spec? Of the two sets I prefer the Fuchs. How best can I restore them to new, or should I ask that question in another thread?
Many thanks
Richard
Richard - either or both could be painted factory wheels, so pull one or all & check for part nos. in the cupped insets in the back for ones starting with 914-xxx-xxx-01.
Fuchs 2Ls would be correct for your 73 2L, unless you have a Certificate of Authenticity or original window sticker &/or dealer sales invoice stating it had opted for the Mahle baby-gas-burners. If no Porsche 914 p/n, then they're repros.
Here's a pic of the Fuchs p/n on backside -
Here's the proper OE finish on Fuchs 2L's -
Mahle 4-lugs were painted silver -
There are more & better pix of these earlier in this thread.
Cheers Again!
Tom
///////
Posted by: RichardFDR May 19 2011, 07:39 AM
Finding it a bit tricky to find my post and reply to Tom's helpful comments about identifying the 2L Fuchs. But this is a note of thanks. I'll be taking a look when I go to the garage where the car is stored.
What would someone suggest I use to get the paint off and bring the wheels back to looking new?
Posted by: Tom_T May 19 2011, 02:59 PM
Finding it a bit tricky to find my post and reply to Tom's helpful comments about identifying the 2L Fuchs. But this is a note of thanks. I'll be taking a look when I go to the garage where the car is stored.
What would someone suggest I use to get the paint off and bring the wheels back to looking new?
Assuming you're taking it to bare metal to refinish either/both - try acetone, soak a few minutes, then patience & a soft touch with a soft-ish cotton rag (Q-tips in corners), may take several times depending on how the surface was prepped, paint coats, etc., but it will take it to bare metal with minimum damage to the surface.
Then assess what need be done to restore the semi-polished/satin background under anodized finish on the Fuchs @ls, or to prep & repaint silver on the Mahle 4-lugs.
If you were here in the US, I'd just suggest sending them to Al Reid in Anaheim CA or Weideman Wheels in Oroville CA, who both do a superb job on factory finish wheel restos!
PS - you're welcome, & just use the page number boxes at the top or bottom left of the posts to go back/fwd through the pages of posts to find your/other old posts.
Posted by: Pat Garvey May 19 2011, 06:34 PM
So, I have eight wheels for a 914. One set of four lug Fuchs with black paint on them and one shiny set of other ones that are gas burners I think, also with black paint. Am I correct in thinking neither is factory spec? Of the two sets I prefer the Fuchs. How best can I restore them to new, or should I ask that question in another thread?
Many thanks
Richard
Richard,
It depends on the year of your 914. Fuchs are good for any year after '72. Gas burners were 914-6 wheels. Yours appear to be Mahles, which will work with most early & later 914's. Gas burners were magnesium 5 bolt Mahles.
Pat
Posted by: Tom_T May 19 2011, 07:00 PM
So, I have eight wheels for a 914. One set of four lug Fuchs with black paint on them and one shiny set of other ones that are gas burners I think, also with black paint. Am I correct in thinking neither is factory spec? Of the two sets I prefer the Fuchs. How best can I restore them to new, or should I ask that question in another thread?
Many thanks
Richard
Richard,
It depends on the year of your 914. Fuchs are good for any year after '72. Gas burners were 914-6 wheels. Yours appear to be Mahles, which will work with most early & later 914's. Gas burners were magnesium 5 bolt Mahles.
Pat
Pat, some folks refer to the 4-lug Mahles as "Baby Gas-burners" & I think that's what he meant.
His is the black 914 2.0 in the pix on the previous page here, & is a now pranged/deceased 73 from which he's using parts to transform his 72 1.7 to a 2.0 look-alike - per his comments at another topic in O&H on bumpers.
He's in the UK, so 914s are more scarce there & harder to buy another 73 2L or repair his pranged one, although I suggested looking into that option too.
Posted by: tod914 Jul 8 2011, 08:22 AM
Last two that were available from Porsche. 74 + style steel wheel. Date code of 1/80 on them.
Posted by: RFoulds Jul 8 2011, 08:42 AM
Wow! Interesting that the backs are not black as most of our originally equipped wheels are. In refurbishing mine, I would have preferred to finish them as yours are.
Posted by: tod914 Jul 8 2011, 09:00 AM
Randy did you try the wurth silver to see how well it matched? I thought you made mention you went with a white/silver? I was surprised they didn't have black on them too.
Posted by: RFoulds Jul 8 2011, 09:24 AM
I use Wurth Silver Alloy on modern Porsche and BMW wheels. Its a perfect match for Boxster/Cayman/911 OE wheels, but it s little too gray for the 914 steelies. Although it produces a very nice look, its not the OE finish.
The Wurth White Alloy is actually very silver, a brighter silver than the grayer Silver Alloy. Since I had perfect OE spare to guide me, I went with the White Alloy, which was a perfect match.
I sprayed the satin black on backside first, then the White Alloy on the face to duplicate the slight overspray on the backside of wheel.
I was lucky enough to speak to a guy who worked at Porsche factory during the early 70's and he described how the wheels looked when they arrived from VW. It matched the spare I had, he even described the "sloppy job" of spraying that produced the overspray on the backside.
He is now a partner or manager at an indie Porsche shop here in the desert and has been a source of good info for my project todate.
Posted by: tod914 Jul 8 2011, 09:39 AM
That's great information. And a fantastic resource to have. If you could walk me through the entire process, that would be great. I might end up refinishing 2 used ones to match the nos ones. The original wheels and tires are going into storage. What sandpaper grit, polish, etc. did you use to get such a nice end result? Thanks. Oh.. what tires did you end up going with?
Posted by: RFoulds Jul 8 2011, 10:25 AM
For Tires, I went with the Vredesteins, purchased from Coker Tires.
The wheel process was simple. I had a body shop media blast and then prime them for me. Thye did an excellent job, and all 4 wheels was only $100.
Next, I sprayed the backside with 3 light coats of Wurth Satin Black, being careful to get as little of the black on the face side, to avoid any uneven buildup when I spray the face. I smoothed out any small runs or debri on backside with 0000 steel wool.
Then, I cleaned the face again with a very light 0000 steel wool, and sprayed 4 light coats of Wurth White Alloy. Between each coat, I lightly rubbed them with 00 steel wool, just enough to smooth out any imperfection.
After final coat, I slowly smoothed it with more 0000 steel wool, and checked the backsides to be sure there was just enough of the overspray look. All 4 wheels looked just like the spare.
At that point, I was tempted to spray clearcoat on them, but since the OE didn't have clear, I resisted. Instead, they got a light buff with "3M Perfect-it" light hand rubbing compound, and a finish polish with 3M glaze. 
After that, I checked that the Vredesteins had no blemishes, cleaned them with a very mild soap and water to avoid stains, and then had the tire shop very carefully mount then on the wheels.
Thats it!
Posted by: tod914 Jul 8 2011, 10:31 AM
Perfect end result. With the steel wool, do you use any kind of compound with it?
Posted by: RFoulds Jul 8 2011, 10:48 AM
Perfect end result. With the steel wool, do you use any kind of compound with it?
No, just the steel wool. and I forgot, after steel wool, blow them with compressed air and wipe with tack cloth again.
rubbing compound and glaze were applied with a micro fiber cloth.
Posted by: tod914 Jul 10 2011, 08:13 AM
x
Posted by: dcheek Aug 28 2012, 07:00 AM
Here's a little tip on spray painting wheels; Buy a cheap "Lazy Susan" or, for lack of a better term, a "turntable", that is big enough to support a wheel. That way you can spin the wheel and keep the paint source (rattle can or spray gun) stationary. Your paint job will come out much more even and reduce the risk of runs. Also, to prevent scratching, mount the tire BEFORE your put the final finish on the face. Yeah, I know it requires more taping to prevent overspray but, there's no touch up required. This was a tip I got from a professional Porsche restorer.
Dave
Posted by: tod914 Aug 28 2012, 09:50 PM
Thanks Dave. I encountered that issue once I had the tires mounted. 3 out of 4 isn't bad I suppose. One when they balanced it, got scratched up and needed to be resprayed. See you at the Aircooled event!
Posted by: RFoulds Nov 13 2012, 10:53 PM
Here I go with wheels again. Different car. 1971.
Any chance a chromed, steel wheel with hub caps was an option?
Posted by: Tom_T Nov 14 2012, 03:44 PM
Here I go with wheels again. Different car. 1971.
Any chance a chromed, steel wheel with hub caps was an option?
PM Pat G, he can give you the lowdown & probably ID those wheels.
Posted by: RFoulds Nov 14 2012, 11:22 PM
he did indeed an early year dealer installed option
Posted by: orthobiz Feb 26 2013, 10:17 PM
For the Wurth White Alloy paint, are you talking about a rattle can? A quick look on the web and I could not find the paint by the quart or gallon...
Paul
Posted by: RFoulds Feb 27 2013, 12:04 AM
For the Wurth White Alloy paint, are you talking about a rattle can? A quick look on the web and I could not find the paint by the quart or gallon...
Paul
Correct. Rattle can it is.
Posted by: orthobiz Feb 27 2013, 04:07 PM
[/quote]
Correct. Rattle can it is.
[/quote]
Thanks for the reply!
Paul
Posted by: coleboy Apr 7 2013, 06:37 PM
I'm no expert and I am restoring my first 914. I have factory fuchs but I have so many different lug nuts that I don't know what is correct for these fuchs.
What length is the correct for front and rear?
Do I have to install the black plastic lug nut covers that I have?
Posted by: 1970 Neun vierzehn Apr 7 2013, 07:30 PM
What length is the correct for front and rear?
Do I have to install the black plastic lug nut covers that I have?
correct length is 38mm, and......
I'd keep the black plastic lug nut covers, but I don't use them myself, and....
Paul
Posted by: RFoulds Jul 27 2013, 03:04 PM
After full cleaning the chrome wheels, I noticed that they had a painted finish on the back side. Apparently to inhibit rust and corrosion. So I scrubbed them with 0000 steel wool and sprayed 3 coats of Wyeth white alloy (silver) to duplicate the factory finish.
Now on to polishing the face side, then mounting Vredesteins.
Attached thumbnail(s)
Posted by: RFoulds Jul 27 2013, 05:35 PM
And here is the now cleaned and polished chrome wheel and hubcap.
Attached thumbnail(s)
Posted by: Pat Garvey Aug 4 2013, 04:46 PM
After full cleaning the chrome wheels, I noticed that they had a painted finish on the back side. Apparently to inhibit rust and corrosion. So I scrubbed them with 0000 steel wool and sprayed 3 coats of Wyeth white alloy (silver) to duplicate the factory finish.
Now on to polishing the face side, then mounting Vredesteins.
When you say "factory finish" I'm assuming you mean the factory manufacturer of the wheels, since the Porsche factory did not supply chromed steel wheels for 4 cylinder 914's. Just want others to know that chrome wheels were a dealer add-on or accessory outside of the dealer. I'm not denigrating chromies - my 914 has had them for years.
Now, it looks as though you and I may have the same wheels. If so, they should be stamped "Made in Brazil" and have a stylized stamped "W". Honestly don't remember who the manufacturer was, but mine are chromed on both sides, not painted. Suspect the prior owner had a reason to paint the backsides. They look nice & you've done a great job.
But everyone - remember, these wheels are not Porsche factory wheels. They were made for VW by a company in Brazil. I've always liked them though.
Pat
Posted by: lennyhope Oct 26 2013, 10:55 AM
How does one know the difference between the 914 5.5 factory slotted steel wheels and other VW and aftermarket similar wheels? Any markings on them to look for??
Posted by: lennyhope Jan 8 2014, 02:53 PM
Does anyone have a photo of a factory fitted Optional 5.5x15 slotted steel wheel with the centres painted black under the hub cap(as factory)?
Posted by: Mhead Jan 9 2014, 12:10 PM
Another original unused steel (4.5") spare ...with tire
Posted by: Pat Garvey Jan 27 2014, 06:47 PM
Another original unused steel (4.5") spare ...with tire
show us the rear side please.
Posted by: Mhead Jan 30 2014, 05:54 AM
Pat,
This is the best I could do given the car is put away for the winter. I can get a better pic of the back side a bit later.
Posted by: nathansnathan Jan 31 2014, 02:42 PM
Here's a 5 1/2" wheel (not as nice but still original). You can see the difference is the part that is slotted is recessed by just a bit. - For a long time I couldn't spot the difference.
Posted by: Pat Garvey Feb 4 2014, 07:22 PM
Pat,
This is the best I could do given the car is put away for the winter. I can get a better pic of the back side a bit later.
No need. The front & back of your wheels are "as-delivered", regardless of size. The inner portion (lug area) was flash sprayed satin black. The entire rear side was done fully satin black. Wish I knew the purpose of painting the lug area a separate color, since it was covered by hubcaps???!!
Could it have nothing but overspray from the backside?
Posted by: Cuda911 Jul 18 2014, 11:27 PM
To add to the wheel photo archives here:
The first pic is the original 5.5x15 steelies from my '74 1.8. Somebody added chrome trim rings that look like crap.
I just swapped the wheels out with Mahle Gasburners, which should be period-correct for 1974, along with OEM Porsche center caps with the Porsche crest. The only thing not "quite" proper: The steelies come with flat black plastic center caps and black plastic lug bolt covers. I moved the covers over to the Mahle wheels.
.
Attached image(s)
Posted by: 914time Aug 7 2014, 08:43 AM
I have a 73 2.0 with appearance group. There is green paint/stuff on all four lug nuts on all four wheels (4-bolt Fuchs, 15"), see picture. I read somewhere on the site that this was put on at the factory prior to shipping to acknowledge the lugs had been properly torqued?
Any truth to this? What else could it be? Anyone else have this on theirs?
Thank you,
Erik
Attached image(s)
Posted by: Cupomeat Aug 7 2014, 10:46 AM
To add to the wheel photo archives here:
The first pic is the original 5.5x15 steelies from my '74 1.8. Somebody added chrome trim rings that look like crap.
I just swapped the wheels out with Mahle Gasburners, which should be period-correct for 1974, along with OEM Porsche center caps with the Porsche crest. The only thing not "quite" proper: The steelies come with flat black plastic center caps and black plastic lug bolt covers. I moved the covers over to the Mahle wheels.
.
It is my understanding that the "Gasburners" were only the 5 lug Mahles, and not the 4 lug. When you see the 5 lug (914-6) mahles, you'd understand the name as they look like the burner of a gas stove.
That being said, I believe that gasburners are the lightest of all the similar size 15" wheels.
I hope this helps.
Posted by: Speedmster Dec 1 2014, 12:12 PM
How unusual would it be for a -6 to have steelies with a manufacture date stamp of 11/67 on all four corners? Dads 1970 914 -6 (9140431006) is a pretty complete original car. He bought it used in 1972 from the original owner. The spare has a date of 3/70, the same time the car came off the line.
Is this normal or a sign of possible dealership swap?
Posted by: Johny Blackstain Dec 1 2014, 07:38 PM
How unusual would it be for a -6 to have steelies with a manufacture date stamp of 11/67 on all four corners? Dads 1970 914 -6 (9140431006) is a pretty complete original car. He bought it used in 1972 from the original owner. The spare has a date of 3/70, the same time the car came off the line.
Is this normal or a sign of possible dealership swap?
I honestly don't know & figure the only way to know for sure is to get a COA for the car. In my opinion though, I believe your suspicions are correct & it's a dealer swap. The COA, window sticker or the original bill of sale would say what wheels originally came with the car.
Posted by: Speedmster Dec 7 2014, 05:24 AM
How unusual would it be for a -6 to have steelies with a manufacture date stamp of 11/67 on all four corners? Dads 1970 914 -6 (9140431006) is a pretty complete original car. He bought it used in 1972 from the original owner. The spare has a date of 3/70, the same time the car came off the line.
Is this normal or a sign of possible dealership swap?
I honestly don't know & figure the only way to know for sure is to get a COA for the car. In my opinion though, I believe your suspicions are correct & it's a dealer swap. The COA, window sticker or the original bill of sale would say what wheels originally came with the car.
Original window sticker is not a player. Dad never got it. Does a COA get that detailed? All the COA's I've seen usually were quite simple in the options.
Posted by: Johny Blackstain Dec 7 2014, 10:20 AM
Original window sticker is not a player. Dad never got it. Does a COA get that detailed? All the COA's I've seen usually were quite simple in the options.
To be honest, probably not, however one thing I've noticed on COA's is the more homework you do for them the more info that's on it. In other words if you provide them with the chassis number, serial number, color code, interior color, engine number, etc., it seems you get a more complete COA, as opposed to not providing all that info. Makes no sense to me, since you're paying them to do homework for you, but often how it appears to be. The word lazy comes to mind
As for your wheels I still agree with you suspecting a dealer swap, since they're dated 1967 & the only 914's avail in 1967 were very raw prototypes that were not for sale or accessible by the public @ large. Owning 2 914's myself & being the original owner of one of them & very much not on the other I've been able to see both ends of the COA spectrum.
Posted by: Tom_T Dec 7 2014, 08:08 PM
To add to the wheel photo archives here:
The first pic is the original 5.5x15 steelies from my '74 1.8. Somebody added chrome trim rings that look like crap.
I just swapped the wheels out with Mahle Gasburners, which should be period-correct for 1974, along with OEM Porsche center caps with the Porsche crest. The only thing not "quite" proper: The steelies come with flat black plastic center caps and black plastic lug bolt covers. I moved the covers over to the Mahle wheels.
.
It is my understanding that the "Gasburners" were only the 5 lug Mahles, and not the 4 lug. When you see the 5 lug (914-6) mahles, you'd understand the name as they look like the burner of a gas stove.
That being said, I believe that gasburners are the lightest of all the similar size 15" wheels.
I hope this helps.
Eric & All,
Mahle came out with a 4-lug version nicknamed "Baby Gas-burner" starting in the 1973 MY - & some may have been available as options to dealers earlier with P/N ending in -00 - meaning not for hubcentric wheel hubs on the 73-76 914s.
So Cuda is right if you add a "Baby" to his reference - they are period correct for 73-76 .....
.... & Pat G may be able to confirm them being around for 72 MY as a dealer upgrade?
The Porsche Crest center caps would've been available from the dealers as an add-on accessory, so a period correct item, even if never delivered that way from the factory. IMHO I doubt any judge at Parade would usually gig anyone for them today from what I've seen winning there - unless 2 914s were scored equally & needed a tie-breaker, & originality is no longer judged at the local Region nor Zone level (latter may do so for a tie-breaker).
Also IIRC the Fuchs 2L forged alloy wheels are a few oz lighter than 4-lug Mahles, which are cast alloy, & maybe less than the 5-lug ones. There is a wheel weights chart earlier in this topic for all the wheels.
Posted by: Tom_T Dec 7 2014, 08:14 PM
To add to the wheel photo archives here:
The first pic is the original 5.5x15 steelies from my '74 1.8. Somebody added chrome trim rings that look like crap.
I just swapped the wheels out with Mahle Gasburners, which should be period-correct for 1974, along with OEM Porsche center caps with the Porsche crest. The only thing not "quite" proper: The steelies come with flat black plastic center caps and black plastic lug bolt covers. I moved the covers over to the Mahle wheels.
.
IMHO Cuda, they look better without the black caps, & showing the silver zinc or silver Cad finish of the original alloy spec wheel lug bolts. Center caps look nice, even if not "factory correct" - as I said, they're period correct.
Some Porsche+Audi dealers in those days also had Porsche Crest center caps made up with their dealership name on that crest, as with the Rusnack (??) ones on Steve's Sahara Beige beauty at the front of "The few, the rare..." nailed topic in O&H here.
If the finish is bad, I'm pretty sure that Eric Shea at PMB will still put them through with a batch of his brake calipers for replating at a reasonable cost, or a local plating shop can do it too.
Posted by: Tom_T Dec 7 2014, 08:23 PM
Original window sticker is not a player. Dad never got it. Does a COA get that detailed? All the COA's I've seen usually were quite simple in the options.
To be honest, probably not, however one thing I've noticed on COA's is the more homework you do for them the more info that's on it. In other words if you provide them with the chassis number, serial number, color code, interior color, engine number, etc., it seems you get a more complete COA, as opposed to not providing all that info. Makes no sense to me, since you're paying them to do homework for you, but often how it appears to be. The word lazy comes to mind
As for your wheels I still agree with you suspecting a dealer swap, since they're dated 1967 & the only 914's avail in 1967 were very raw prototypes that were not for sale or accessible by the public @ large. Owning 2 914's myself & being the original owner of one of them & very much not on the other I've been able to see both ends of the COA spectrum.
Yes ..... or it could be a PO/OO swap before his Dad got it, since folks swapped wheels all the time too.
I'm the 2nd owner of my early `73 2L, & the PO/OO or dealer had swapped all 5 Fuchs 2L wheels out for a steel spare + 4 original Rivieras, as it was equipped when I bought it about 3 years old in Dec. `75 (originally sold in Nov. 72 & I looked at it in Nov. 75 right after the OO paid off the loan).
It's cost me $1000 for a set of Al Reed restored Fuchs (plus another $760/wheel to anodize them as to factory finish, since they're polished now), & another $300 for proper center caps, & yet another $250 for a set of 16 lug bolts which I'll need to send to Eric Shea at PMB with my calipers to get silver zinc/Cad replating (brakes should be gold Cad BTW folks if you're CW).
So probably $2000+ today to recreate a 1972 $250 option!
Posted by: Tom_T Dec 7 2014, 08:41 PM
OK - the real reason I came on here, was to let folks know about a couple of period correct re-popped tires for the `73-76 914 2.0 (/4), 1970-72 914-6 with 15" wheels & 165 tires, & any other 1.7 & 1.8 /4 with optional tire upgrades.
Lucas Classic Tires in Ohio & Long Beach CA are now carrying a 165(/80)HR15 Pirelli that was put on some 914s by the factory AFAIK - or at least were available as period correct replacements back-in-the-day - as well as a Blockley which looks an awful lot like the preferred spec Dunlop SP57 dog-bone tread tires, but at a 165(/80)VR15 higher speed rating.
http://www.lucasclassictires.com/15-165HR15-Pirelli-Cinturato-CA67-165pirelli.htm
. 
.
.
http://www.lucasclassictires.com/15-165VR15-Blockley-Radial-504p.htm
. 
.
.
They also have these in the 14" & wider 185 14" & 15" used on the 916-6's & 911/912's ....
http://www.lucasclassictires.com/Sports-Car-Radials_c23.htm
Hopefully this helps those who are looking for period correct tires for either vintaqe racing or concours reasons - or even just personal preference!
Cheers!
Tom
///////
Posted by: VG-914 Dec 28 2014, 04:52 PM
What? No one has Fuchs alloys?
I have the 5 x 15.5 - 4 Lug Empi reproductions on mine. They don't look too bad, but probably won't win me any awards...
Saw them on eBay recently: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Porcshe-914-Rim-5-5-X-15-wheel-VW-Late-Bug-Type-1-3-/171017619500
...for under $100 each.
I can attest to a good ride, and have held up well. The Porsche caps fit.
Posted by: Pat Garvey Jan 1 2015, 06:43 PM
How unusual would it be for a -6 to have steelies with a manufacture date stamp of 11/67 on all four corners? Dads 1970 914 -6 (9140431006) is a pretty complete original car. He bought it used in 1972 from the original owner. The spare has a date of 3/70, the same time the car came off the line.
Is this normal or a sign of possible dealership swap?
I honestly don't know & figure the only way to know for sure is to get a COA for the car. In my opinion though, I believe your suspicions are correct & it's a dealer swap. The COA, window sticker or the original bill of sale would say what wheels originally came with the car.
Original window sticker is not a player. Dad never got it. Does a COA get that detailed? All the COA's I've seen usually were quite simple in the options.
I bought my '72 in Kentucky new. The State confiscated the window sticker to determine the sales tax due them. You could have gotten a discount of a thousand bucks, but would still pay sales tax on the sticker price. Don't know if that heathen state still does it today but it cost me some bucks in the 70's and 80's.
Posted by: Pat Garvey Jan 1 2015, 06:44 PM
How unusual would it be for a -6 to have steelies with a manufacture date stamp of 11/67 on all four corners? Dads 1970 914 -6 (9140431006) is a pretty complete original car. He bought it used in 1972 from the original owner. The spare has a date of 3/70, the same time the car came off the line.
Is this normal or a sign of possible dealership swap?
I honestly don't know & figure the only way to know for sure is to get a COA for the car. In my opinion though, I believe your suspicions are correct & it's a dealer swap. The COA, window sticker or the original bill of sale would say what wheels originally came with the car.
Original window sticker is not a player. Dad never got it. Does a COA get that detailed? All the COA's I've seen usually were quite simple in the options.
I bought my '72 in Kentucky new. The State confiscated the window sticker to determine the sales tax due them. You could have gotten a discount of a thousand bucks, but would still pay sales tax on the sticker price. Don't know if that heathen state still does it today but it cost me some bucks in the 70's and 80's.
Posted by: bulitt Jan 2 2015, 02:08 AM
Pat,
This is the best I could do given the car is put away for the winter. I can get a better pic of the back side a bit later.
No need. The front & back of your wheels are "as-delivered", regardless of size. The inner portion (lug area) was flash sprayed satin black. The entire rear side was done fully satin black. Wish I knew the purpose of painting the lug area a separate color, since it was covered by hubcaps???!!
Could it have nothing but overspray from the backside?
Doesn't appear to be overspray as it has a round pattern. Looks like the entire wheel was painted black, then mounted on a fixture, then the outside painted silver.
Or possibly a small cover put over the lug area to prevent excessive build up of paint (silver) in that area?
Posted by: 914Next Jan 21 2017, 05:35 AM
Here are a few pics of my original Fuchs wheels and original spare tire....a bit dirty before I cleaned them up.
Posted by: Dougal Cawley Mar 23 2017, 10:50 AM
Hi
I hope this is of interest to you.
There has been a new tyre produced recently by Pirelli which Porsche are giving the N4 homologation. http://www.longstonetyres.co.uk/page/165vr15-pirelli-cinturato-cn36-n4.html
This CN36 tread pattern came out in 1968.
I think before that they would have used the CA67 http://www.longstonetyres.co.uk/page/165hr15-pirelli-cinturato-ca67.html
The other good news is they also make a 185/70VR15 CN36 http://www.longstonetyres.co.uk/page/165vr15-pirelli-cinturato-cn36-n4.html that also has N4 homologation
and
a 215/60WR15 CN36 N4http://www.longstonetyres.co.uk/page/215-60wr15-pirelli-cinturato-cn36-n4.html
I think this is aan international site so this page here shows you all the international distributors of the range https://www.cinturato.net/ in the top right hand corner of the page
Posted by: KeithVonLaws Aug 9 2017, 01:49 PM
Set of 5 Rare Wheels dated 4/1970
Car was brought from Germany but is US Specs.
http://i1152.photobucket.com/albums/p482/keithVonlaws/DSC06352_zpsczkgwizw.jpg
Posted by: Halfnelson Sep 27 2017, 01:00 PM
Does anyone know these wheels - was told by previous owner they came with the car as a dealer option?
Posted by: arne Sep 27 2017, 01:59 PM
Those look like Western brand wheels to me. Dealers in those days frequently installed off the shelf aftermarket wheels on the cars that came with steelies as an added profit item. Definitely not stock.
Posted by: larryM Jan 17 2018, 12:55 PM
check here - post #6 - factory specs
from Info for Sports Purposes 4890.20-200-03-72
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=322764
Posted by: Cal Jan 8 2019, 08:58 PM
I had some free time tonight so I cleaned up the original Dunlop SP-57 spare tire and Fuchs wheel.....never one have ever seen any pavement use.
Attached thumbnail(s)
Posted by: Dougal Cawley Aug 12 2019, 03:53 AM
Do you guys think that the 914 fitted Pirelli Cinturato CA67 or CN36?
Posted by: davep Aug 13 2019, 06:42 AM
I never saw CN36 used as original tires on a 914.
Posted by: Tom_T Aug 13 2019, 09:02 PM
I never saw CN36 used as original tires on a 914.
FWIW Dougal & Dave,
I've seen them used on some of my friend's 914/4s & 914-6s back in the day Dave, but I don't know for sure if they were original factory equipment on them - or a dealer or PO change-out when new (here in the USA/SoCal Dougal).
Dougal, you guys need to either bring back those Blockley's that have dog-bone tread like the OEM Dunlop SP57 165(/80)HR15 - or better yet get Dunlop to rerun the SP57s, & then get them to your USA Partner Lucas Tires!
Cheers!
Tom
///////
Posted by: racingredsc Nov 18 2019, 04:47 PM
What's right for a narrow body w/flat 6's? 15X6 I think I used to run 205/55/15 on all four corners.
Posted by: larryM Nov 24 2019, 01:45 PM
is your question "what fits today?" or "what was original?"
"performance" street tire of the period was 185/70x15,
period oem Fuchs were 15x5.5 or 14x5.5
(neither of which are very practical given today's tire market, but possibly necessary if one is primarily concours driven)
here's one answer
https://www.vtowheels.com/Porsche-914-Narrow-Body-16x7-Wheel-Fitment_b_5.html
What's right for a narrow body w/flat 6's? 15X6 I think I used to run 205/55/15 on all four corners.
Posted by: NW JLO Mar 30 2020, 10:01 AM
Wheel Question....Does this 4-lug Mahle correctly fit my 74 1.8?
The wheel in question is a 914.361.016.00.....are these hub centric or not?
Seller states that they work on his 74 914....
Thanks for your help.
Posted by: Tom_T Mar 30 2020, 08:26 PM
Wheel Question....Does this 4-lug Mahle correctly fit my 74 1.8?
The wheel in question is a 914.361.016.00.....are these hub centric or not?
Seller states that they work on his 74 914....
Thanks for your help.
The 4-lug wheel numbers ending in ...00 are NOT originally hub-centric, & meant for 70-72 non-hub-centric cars.
73-76 hub-centric wheels p/n ends in ....01
& this is for all steel & alloy factory 914 4-lug wheels - whether Pedrini, Mahle Baby-Gasburner, Fuchs 2L, & the late Mag-look or Star vs early slotted steel wheels.
However, you can get a shop to turn out the same recess on a set of 5 -00 p/n alloy wheels.
Scroll back a few pages where I posted pix of it & more details for this factor, so you can show the shop &/or compare if your seller has modified -00's.
You need to have ALL 5 wheels - 4 on & spare properly fit, because they need to be used in any spot, even with the hub-centric lips only being on the front hubs.
PS - Unknowing 914ers have put non-hub-centric wheels on their 914s, but they won't seat properly on the fronts, & it was bad enough that Porsche issued Recall BO for replacing the wrong ones on some early 73's built Aug-Dec 1972.
It's not safe, so don't do it.
Have the seller show you backside pix of all 5 wheels to see what he has. Check with a local machine shop for the price to cut in the hub-centric recesses, then negotiate price accordingly, or keep looking. If they're already done, then you're good to go, but use the pic at my prior post in this long thread to compare.
Tom
///////
Posted by: flat4guy May 7 2020, 04:49 PM
On our 71 914 -4 we are running the stock 8 slot steel wheel with hubcap - it has 185/65/15 on there now - how much bigger can we go? 195/60? 205/55? Just curious, like the look of the steelie just would like a little chunkier tire. Thanks
Posted by: Tom_T May 7 2020, 06:52 PM
On our 71 914 -4 we are running the stock 8 slot steel wheel with hubcap - it has 185/65/15 on there now - how much bigger can we go? 195/60? 205/55? Just curious, like the look of the steelie just would like a little chunkier tire. Thanks
That's probably a better question in the Garage Forum, as this topic is for the original tire & wheel combos.
The combos are listed earlier in this topic, but 185/70HR15 or VR were the Porsche optional upgrade tires back in the day, as previously posted. So you're at the max there.
Make sure to use a tire size calculator to minimize speedo/odometer error, because you'll get "ghost mileage" on your cars running sizes with a larger or smaller diameter.
I don't recall the error which your current 185/65R15 will have, but it can add up if you're trying to keep the mileage correct, &/or in speed situations (but Officer....). You know that our Chippers don't have a sense of humor about Porsches over the speed limit!
Cheers!
Tom
///////
Posted by: flat4guy May 7 2020, 09:55 PM
On our 71 914 -4 we are running the stock 8 slot steel wheel with hubcap - it has 185/65/15 on there now - how much bigger can we go? 195/60? 205/55? Just curious, like the look of the steelie just would like a little chunkier tire. Thanks
That's probably a better question in the Garage Forum, as this topic is for the original tire & wheel combos.
The combos are listed earlier in this topic, but 185/70HR15 or VR were the Porsche optional upgrade tires back in the day, as previously posted. So you're at the max there.
Make sure to use a tire size calculator to minimize speedo/odometer error, because you'll get "ghost mileage" on your cars running sizes with a larger or smaller diameter.
I don't recall the error which your current 185/65R15 will have, but it can add up if you're trying to keep the mileage correct, &/or in speed situations (but Officer....). You know that our Chippers don't have a sense of humor about Porsches over the speed limit!
Cheers!
Tom
///////
Thank you
Posted by: Tom_T Mar 13 2021, 05:01 PM
I've been updating folks on the current classic/vintage tire options available now in 2021 at some other posts/topics - so I thought that I'd better put them here in O&H Wheels & Tires Topic too.
A simple google/bing search for 165/80R15 tires for SR, TR & HR or VR speed rated tires - or 155/80R15 for the 1.7L & 1.8L owners only needing SR or TR rated tires - & it now again turns up a variety of serviceable passenger tires in reasonably budget conscious prices from all over - even Tire Rack is again carrying them.
Currently there are the somewhat less budget conscious Vredstein Sprint/Sprint Plus in 155 & 165 & 185 sizes in SR & HR & VR speed ratings which are available a bunch of places - so just google/bing search for your size & type tire to find the best prices & locations for you.
FYI - this Nexen tire is very similar to the 195/65HR14 tires that I've been running on my `85 BMW 325e E30 Coupe with the 2.7L I-6 & 5-spd, and they're excellent all around tires on a heavier coupe with similar power-to-weight & handling to our 914s (which was why I picked it new in `85, when my 914 was whacked). So I'd expect it to handle well in all weather & wear well on our 914s too, but I've not tried them myself. They come up available at many places.
https://www.prioritytire.com/nexen-sb-802-165-80r15-87t-as-a-s-all-season-tire/?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&adpos=&scid=scplpN895188-99&sc_intid=N895188-99&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI1OiAu5uu7wIVVx6tBh2_1g3bEAQYCyABEgJtofD_BwE
.
In the repops of traditional OEM tires that came on our 914s of /4 & -6 flavors - there are Michelin, Pirelli & Blockley's version of the old Dunlop SP57 tires that came on our 914s from the factory.
While there aren't any Dunlop made SP57 repops (see Blockley below) - but there are some "not quite classic 60's-70's tread" style "Dunlop Sport Classic" - as well as similar 80's style "Classic" Continentals in the 165/80/R15, 155/80R15 & 185/70R15 tires, as well as in the 14 " wheel sizes for those running 5 lug Fuchs. These look more like the Michi's that came new on my `85 BMW 325e E30 Coupe - so not period correct look - but I'm sure would handle well on the 914s as well in the 155/80R15, 165/80R15, 185/70R15, etc sizes.
https://www.cokertire.com/tires/dunlop-sport-classic-165-80r15-87h.html
https://www.cokertire.com/tires/dunlop-sport-classic-185-70r15-89v.html
However, the Conti's don't seem to be availble in the USA - so it may be a UK/Euro/Down Under option - or else shipped to the US from there:
https://www.vintagetyres.com/shop/continental-ct22-165-80r15-87t
.
Michelin XAS 165/80VR15, XZX 155 & 165/80SR15 (for 1.7L & 1.8L), XVX & their XWX 185/70VR15 are among my top choices for reshodding my 914 when the resto/renno/repairs are done.
https://www.cokertire.com/tires/michelin-xas-155hr15.html
https://www.cokertire.com/tires/155hr15-michelin-xas-ff.html
https://www.cokertire.com/tires/165sr15-michelin-xzx.html
https://www.cokertire.com/tires/michelin-xvs.html
https://www.cokertire.com/tires/185-70vr15-michelin-xwx.html
.
Check with Coker or Michelin if you can run the ones noted at Coker as "Tube Type" - without the tubes in a "J" type tubeless tire rim (all of the factory 914 steel, Fuchs, Pedrini & alloy rims are "J" tubeless rims).
.
However, these XAS Michi are tubeless type, available in our 914 sizes, are Porsche tested "N Rated" & were excellent handling tires back in the day - and even better with the repop's modern rubber compounds. They're the ones that you'll find on the current Porsche AG/PCNA Tire Reccos for our 914s, & are a stock size befitting both 914/4 & 914-6 (also in 185/70VR15).
https://www.cokertire.com/tires/brands/michelin-xas-165vr15-special-n-code.html
.
Coker Tire, Universal, Lucas Tires, etc. are all good places to look for the various radial tire options available here in the USA, & Longstone in the UK - but go factory direct for Blockley (see below).
Coker - Radials:
https://www.cokertire.com/tires/styles/radial-tires.html
.
For those here in SoCal - I like Coker Classic Tires in Long Beach CA, because they're used to working on classic cars with care, sell & mount the tires locally - including from Coker & other brands.
https://www.lucasclassictires.com/ALL-Radial-Tires_c4.htm
.
I've also looked at some classic Dunlop-SP57-look Blockley 165/80VR15 & 185/70VR15 with the SP57 & XWX style dogbone tread - but don't know if I can get them here in the States - & OZ may have them. Read their About page to see his attempts to get Dunlop to repop their OEM SP57 tires, & why he ended up doing them for himself.
https://www.blockleytyre.com/product/165vr15
https://www.blockleytyre.com/product/185-70vr15
.
There are also Pirelli Cinturato Classic tires in the USA & UK (& probably OZ & NZ too) -
https://www.cinturato.net/pirelli-classic-tyres.html
USA - Lucas Tires Long Beach in SoCal:
https://www.lucasclassictires.com/Pirelli-Collection_c54.htm
UK - Longstone Tyres:
https://www.longstonetyres.co.uk/pirelli-collezione.html
.
There are also several other tire dealers selling vintage tires from Michelin, Pirelli, etc. - so google the size &/or maker &/or type that you want, in order to find the best dealer, location & price for you all.
I'm not trying to be all inclusive for the tire options & sellers for each here - but rather to point out the now many more options available once again - for all y'all to do your own search for the best options for you 914, budget, etc. at the time you're buying.
.
If you're upsizing from your original 155/80SR15 or 165/80HR15 tire size - then make sure to use one of the tire size calculators available online to select up-sizes which won't give you over or under ghost miles on your odometer - which the formerly factory recco'ed 195/65R15's did at about 8-13% more than actual miles. With 914s values on the rise, you don't want to be hit with mileage deductions to value for not real miles never driven!
This one compares the stock 165/80R15 with the original option 185/70R15 & shows a 0.8% speedo/odo error, which is acceptable.
https://www.tacomaworld.com/tirecalc?tires=165-80r15-185-70r15
.
Happy Hunting & Good Luck!
Cheers!
Tom
///////
Posted by: Tom_T Mar 19 2021, 07:24 PM
Here's a 3/19/21 pricing update for the Blockley Tyre "Dunlop SP57-look" tires that I referenced in my post above:
<snipped & edited w/ US$>
Hello Thomas,
Yes, these are both tubeless.
All information on these tyres can be viewed on their relevant web pages.
QUOTES BELOW:
Quote 1 for 165/80VR15 for stock 2.0L 165HR15 (/80):
5x 165VR15 Blockley Tyres @£99.00 each = $137.31 as of 3-19-21 Exchange Rate
(comparable to Vredstein etc. prices for 165/80HR15 here in the USA)
For 5 tires = £495.00 = $686.57 as of 3-19-21 Exchange Rate
1x Delivery Charge = £220.00 = $305.14 as of 3-19-21 Exchange Rate
Total = £715.00 = $991.71 as of 3-19-21 Exchange Rate
https://www.blockleytyre.com/product/165vr15
.
Quote 2 for 185/70VR15 optional factory upsize:
5x 185/70VR15 Blockley Tyres @£139.00 each = $192.79 as of 3-19-21 Exch. Rate
(comparable to Vredstein etc. prices for 185/70VR15 here in the USA)
For 5 tires = £695.00 = $963.97 as of 3-19-21 Exchange Rate
1x Delivery Charge = £240.00 = $332.88 as of 3-19-21 Exchange Rate
Total = £935.00 = $1296.85 as of 3-19-21 Exchange Rate
https://www.blockleytyre.com/product/185-70vr15
.
<end snip>
.
I'm not sure if they will charge the local State Sales Tax, or if you will have to report & pay it yourself (California requires it at your annual Tax Returns).
If you're in the UK or EU - then you'll have to check with them for how they're doing the VAT now post Brexit, so check with them for anything else for you other ROW buyers.
They also sell the stock 155R15 in HR - for those wanting to keep their 1.7L or 1.8L914/4 looking stock, but I didn't get prices for them.
https://www.blockleytyre.com/product/155hr15
.
.
This is why Blockley & not Dunlop is making these:
https://www.blockleytyre.com/page/blockey-tyre-company-origins
https://www.blockleytyre.com/page/our-products
https://www.blockleytyre.com/category/radial-tyres
.
Contact Lee Hillsdon at Blockley Tyre (dot com) for more info & orders:
"lhillsdon.blockleytyre" <lee@blockleytyre.com>
.
Hopefully this helps those looking for the original Dunlop SP57 look tires on their 914s - in either the stock 155 (1.7L & 1.8L), or 165 (2.0L flat 4 & 6), or
Cheers!
Tom
///////
Posted by: wonkipop Mar 22 2021, 12:26 AM
you have been able to get blockley tyres here in aus for a long time.
know someone runs them on a jag mk2.
he says they are good in the dry, not so good in the wet.
did say they are loud - tyre roar on the highway.
but you are going to notice that more in a jag than a 914?
also we don't have concrete highways here, asphalt, sometimes quite coarse.
might be more an issue on aus roads than elsewhere.
any of the repros, michelins etc are similarly behaved to blockleys re dry/wet conditions?
i can now confirm the michelins XAS are quiet on the highway (even aus bitumen) at speed.
not surprising, designed for citroen DS?
plenty of grip in the dry, lots.
beautiful feel through the steering wheel on pitching uneven country roads.
steering wheel wriggles more gently than with wider tyres.
am happy to have recovered original feel, its very light.
1.8s ran 5.5 steelies with 165 as standard.
difference between 1.8s and 2.0s in 74 is speed rating, not tyre width.
Posted by: Tom_T Mar 22 2021, 11:28 AM
you have been able to get blockley tyres here in aus for a long time.
know someone runs them on a jag mk2.
he says they are good in the dry, not so good in the wet.
did say they are loud - tyre roar on the highway.
but you are going to notice that more in a jag than a 914?
also we don't have concrete highways here, asphalt, sometimes quite coarse.
might be more an issue on aus roads than elsewhere.
any of the repros, michelins etc are similarly behaved to blockleys re dry/wet conditions?
i can now confirm the michelins XAS are quiet on the highway (even aus bitumen) at speed.
not surprising, designed for citroen DS?
plenty of grip in the dry, lots.
beautiful feel through the steering wheel on pitching uneven country roads.
steering wheel wriggles more gently than with wider tyres.
am happy to have recovered original feel, its very light.
1.8s ran 5.5 steelies with 165 as standard.
difference between 1.8s and 2.0s in 74 is speed rating, not tyre width.
Wonki -
Thanx for the clarification on the 1.8L running 165s.
My buddy's `75 1.8L that he got the same year as I bought my `73 from the OO was running the 155SR15 (/80) - so I thought that was the standard tire for 1.8L 914s here in the USA. But his could've been a dealer tire/wheel swap.
Anyone else here with info on the USA/Canada 74-75 1.8L tire specs - feel free to chime in with your owners manual page pic or other factory or dealer doc.
Also Thanx for the feedback on the Blockley wet & dry handling & road noise. Most of our SoCal & Southwestern roads here are likewise asphalt McAdam paving - although I don't know the comparative roughness here.
Now that the Michelin XAS are Porsche N0 Spec tires, they really seem to be the leading tire options in 155/80, 165/80 & 185/70 for our 914s, as well as for the 911/912 & late 356 B/C cars. Note that they are asymmetrical tires, so fitment is a bit different.
In my post above I forgot to include the 2 165/80R15 Michelin XAS options - one being the Porsche N-0 Spec VR, & the other being their 155/80HR15 XAS HR speed rated tire. Here is Coker's links, but they're sold at most other vintage tire & some mainline tire sellers/stores - so check for best price & availability.
165/80VR15 - Porsche N-0 Spec VR speed rated:
https://www.cokertire.com/tires/brands/michelin-xas-165vr15-special-n-code.html
XAS - pick your size & # tires:
https://www.cokertire.com/tires/michelin-xas.html
Wonki - How are your XAS on your OZ 914-1.8 in the rain down under?
... if you've had it out in any rain yet.
Cheers!
Tom
///////
Posted by: Tom_T Mar 22 2021, 02:42 PM
FYI for Comparison - here are pix of the various Classic tread design tires (excluding the generic & non-period tread design tires available) - ignore the non-914 wheels ....
Michelin:
XAS - 
XZX - 
XWX - 
.
Pirelli:
CN36 - 
CA67 - 
.
Blockley:
(similar to former Dunlop SP57 & Semperit M401/M501 "dogbone" Tread): 
.
Dunlop:
(Closer to 1980s era Dunlop Sport)
Classic Sport - 
.
Vredestein:
(Closer to 1960s-70s era Jaguar XKE, Austin-Healy 100/3000, etc. Brit sports car tires to my eye)
Sprint Classic - 
.
You'll need to check both the load rating (2-digit number) speed rating (Letter - with the "R" in "HR" etc. indicating Radial Tires) on all tires of all brands to make sure that they'll be adequate for your particular 914's rated top speed & their +/- 2270 lbs total weight ( divided by 4 - or by 2 if you want to be safe jacking on one wheel for axle weight).
The Speed Ratings were for the 1.7L & 1.8L /4's good with SR or higher, & the 914-2.0 & 914-6 good with HR or higher - & VR is higher than HR - and technically the "T" & "U" speed ratings that came along later are okay for the 914-2.0 top speed rating, but not for the 914-6.
Tire Rack Speed & Weight Ratings Tech Page:
https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/techpage.jsp?techid=35
.
Cheers!
Tom
///////
Posted by: wonkipop Mar 22 2021, 06:18 PM
74 owners manual with rim/tyre specs.
haven't run the XAS in the rain.
drove through a light shower on the way back from euroa yesterday on the hume interstate, but not what you would call rain.
issues would be around aquaplaning in full wet conditions, as the old tyre tread patterns did not handle water like modern groove tyre designs.
eg. jag owner said he put a little too much boot into it around a wet but not too slick roundabout and just about spun the car. not hard to do with a jag. same guy swears by a set of hankooks on his speedster which he doesn't pussy about in either. heard a few other people say similar about hankooks.
might be where dunlop "classics" come into play.
modern tread pattern in old tyre sizes.
handle full wet conditions, big pools of water, water across road etc significantly better than the vintage treads?
i think i would want to be careful with the XAS if i was caught in any heavy rain.
i would be concerned that everyone else around me in city conditions can outbrake me by a lot, with modern tyres and ABS etc.
out on the open road, i'd say they are fine. if you drive to the conditions.
ps
the XAS felt a bit spooky when i first put them on.
still new and maybe a bit waxy. you could not feel them.
but they seem to have broken in now and are lot gripper.
am still getting used again to the 14 but i got a much better feel on country trip on weekend - first real drive its had out in the bush for 20 years.
the tyres bite pretty hard when you turn in on sharp slower corners, you find yourself letting a bit of lock off the steering wheel! or i did. i was giving it too much turn in on instinct, probably because of rs clio for last 16 years.
haven't given it a proper try out on faster longer corners.
too many big gum trees to hit very close to the edge of the road where i was.
one thing i can say is the tyres do their bit to suck up some of the harsher bumps and ripples on narrow aussie bitumen backroads - esp now that i run some bilsteins which are a bit harder than the original boges. def the right combination of tyre and shock that your teeth won't be falling out of your head.
Posted by: Tom_T Mar 24 2021, 04:48 PM
Thanx for the update & manual specs pic Wonki.
So I update my 1974-75 914-1.8 OEM specs above to 165SR15 (/80) - for those looking for OEM spec tires, or you can also go with HR & higher speed rated tires too, as I'd noted in prior posts above.
Note that Wonki has a USA 74 914-1.8 bought out of Chicago years ago, so the manual page is from his USA owners manual FYI.
PS wonki & all - it's pretty typical that new tires need to be worn in a bit when grip, and then you'll need to get any tires old or new warmed up on the road before you get good traction.
So wonki's experience above is not at all unusual for any tire, aside from his OZ flavor to his post!
It should not give other 914ers the idea that your handling with the original size & spec tires would be bad, and in many ways they will be superior to the wide & lower profile tires which many are fitting today - especially if you prefer to have full lock-to-lock steering, without wheel well or fender rubbing, or the need to "Roll" your fenders (fender lips), want better mpg 7 range, easier turning at lower speeds, etc.
If you want something in between stock 155 & 165 /80R15 & modern 205+ low profile tires - then consider using the factory's recco upgrade to the 185/70VR15 as noted in prior posts - which size also has several tire options, & won't rub fenders/lips nor wheel wells front or back, with less mpg/range & low speed steering effort effects.
Tom
///////
Posted by: Tom_T Mar 24 2021, 05:05 PM
914 OEM Continental TT 714 Tires
ID Photos for 914 OEM Continental TT 714 Tires in 165HR15 (/80) Tires from a recent 914world classified for this never uses spare, for those who had them:
.
Note that this tire above is mounted on the factory OE 1973-76 "Star" or "Mag Style" Steel Wheel, and was believed to be a never used spare, given the still intact casting nubs.
Former O&H Forum Moderator Pat Garvey had Continentals on his 72 914/4 (1.7) when he bought it new - so maybe he can confirm if these were the same as on his 914 from the dealer. The tires & wheels in his pic below are not the originals. 
.
And if I've got the wrong OEM original factory fitted Continentals, then please post pix of the originals in here.
Cheers!
Tom
///////
Posted by: davep Mar 24 2021, 10:19 PM
While I can afford to put original spec tires on my BB, the two other cars developed flats on left rear. All tires are well out of date. I never really like the 165 size, and have gravitated to 185 for 30 years. So today I purchased some Continentals in the 185/65 HR15, and will have to suffer the smaller diameter and the non-originality, but they were under CAD100 each. Somehow they will have to protect the Fuchs from damage. And yes, I realize I am the moderator of the originality forum, but sometimes feel the need to tweak things.
Posted by: wonkipop Mar 24 2021, 10:42 PM
Thanx for the update & manual specs pic Wonki.
PS wonki & all - it's pretty typical that new tires need to be worn in a bit when grip, and then you'll need to get any tires old or new warmed up on the road before you get good traction.
So wonki's experience above is not at all unusual for any tire, aside from his OZ flavor to his post!
Tom
///////
definitely oz flavour - 914 got its first workout for 20 years on what is likely a 50,000 year old highway.
the road lined with gum trees almost at the edge of the bitumen appears as a track marked on the first white survey maps produced in 1865 when it was still Taungurong Country. maybe what makes it an unusual road to drive on. the layout has not changed from the line first recorded 160+ years ago. the corners are not like something a country roads board engineer would have laid out. its a walking track that has bitumen laid over it. i'm looking forward to giving the car another work out on it. i
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strathbogie_Ranges
i go every year to help my uncle get his grape pick done.
he produces a good drop. noir, grigio and chardoney.
of relevance. my guest in the 914 was the daughter of the owner of the Wyong Motors #13 Monaro, winner - 1968 Bathurst 500. according to her uncle, the chief mechanic, the devils # monaro was shod with some of the first Michelin XAS to be brought into australia.
its a tyre with a lot of good pedigree behind it, even though now a 50 year old design.
Attached thumbnail(s)
Attached image(s)
Posted by: Tom_T Mar 25 2021, 01:59 PM
While I can afford to put original spec tires on my BB, the two other cars developed flats on left rear. All tires are well out of date. I never really like the 165 size, and have gravitated to 185 for 30 years. So today I purchased some Continentals in the 185/65 HR15, and will have to suffer the smaller diameter and the non-originality, but they were under CAD100 each. Somehow they will have to protect the Fuchs from damage. And yes, I realize I am the moderator of the originality forum, but sometimes feel the need to tweak things.
Dave,
Can you please post a link to those tires, & pic(s) of it for tread & sidewall id for the folks reading here for tires, & note if they're also available in the 155 & 165 & 185/70 flavors.
I wasn't able to find any current Conti's in the old school 155, 165, 185 sizes except in the EU sellers for my tires updates above.
Please also reiterate the ghost mileage warning in that post so that folks are aware, & use a tire size calculator to know what % it will be.
PS - FYI - I get a 3.8% odometer error on 185/65R15 tires with this calculator.
https://www.tacomaworld.com/tirecalc?tires=165-80r15-185-65r15
.
Also FYI for others looking for the more economical 185 upsize, I did see several other tire brands in 185/70HR15 (or SR, TR, VR) at Tire Rack & some other USA sellers - which size only has an 0.8% odometer error.
https://www.tacomaworld.com/tirecalc?tires=165-80r15-185-70r15
.
For example - Performance Plus Tires here in SoCal has several 185/70R15 south of $100 each:
https://www.performanceplustire.com/products/ts:185-70-15:ty:Tire/
These are Dimax Radar Classic Tires from that link above, & include more economical 155, 165, 175 & 185 R15 sizes in various speed ratings (other sizes too) - with a tread similar to the Vredesteins - but I don't know anything about this maker:
https://www.performanceplustire.com/tires-for-sale/radar-tires/dimax-classic-3/
In addition to a modern tread Pirelli (always expensive from Pirelli), there are several 185/70R15 economy priced tires from Radar, as well as other Dimax Classic sizes - at this link:
.
I don't know if these are available in Canada for Dave & others up there.
I'm sure that searching online will turn up other more budget minded 185/70R15 tires for that that don't want to break the bank, as with the top line Michelin, Pirelli, Dunlop, Continental, etc. big name brand tires, or of the 2nd tier ones like Blockley, Vredestein, etc. tires.
Thanx O' Mod-in-chief!
Tom
///////
Posted by: wonkipop Mar 25 2021, 08:44 PM
these are available in australia - not sure about usa?
nankang is a ok-good tyre (company had associations with yokohama) with a solid rep in aus.
seem only available in 185 width.
prices on website are AUD.
http://www.tarziatyrecentre.com.au/nankang-retro-rc-001-185r15-93h-new-classic-tyre-1
heard bad things about radar tyres down here.
Posted by: Tom_T Mar 26 2021, 11:51 AM
these are available in australia - not sure about usa?
nankang is a ok-good tyre (company had associations with yokohama) with a solid rep in aus.
seem only available in 185 width.
prices on website are AUD.
http://www.tarziatyrecentre.com.au/nankang-retro-rc-001-185r15-93h-new-classic-tyre-1
heard bad things about radar tyres down here.
Thanx for the feedback on the Radar tires wonki, as I'm not familiar with them.
Was that bad things on Radar tires' quality, build, life - or just not top handling tires?
Being at the economical end of tire prices, I'd expect any of those Radar & other lower end brand tires to not perform as well in handling a sports car, but may be serviceable for someone daily driving & just needing a budget friendly tire.
I have heard 3rd party good things about Nankang from others I know running them.
Walmart lists them here in 165/80TR15 (no 185 came up), but currently out of stock:
https://www.walmart.com/ip/Nankang-CX668-P165-80R15/55190139
.
I've been running Nexen performance tires on my `85 BMW 325e E30 coupe (in its stock size 195/65HR14) for several years now & like them wet or dry.
So these SB702/SB802 in 165/80TR15 should be good economical tires for all 914/4s, but a bit lower than HR needed for 914-6.
https://www.onlinetires.com/tires/view/71361/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMI3ae5wLTO7wIVHj6tBh3_LANYEAYYBiABEgKs__D_BwE
.
https://simpletire.com/paid?v=1&tireSize=165-80r15&mpn=11766nxk&brand=nexen&productLine=sb802&itemId=120831®ion_id=9000099999&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=G_Shopping_Region_09&utm_content=Profit-Bucket_Passenger_MAP_LowProfit_Tier-D_RAD&utm_term=&utm_creative=383435609648&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI3ae5wLTO7wIVHj6tBh3_LANYEAYYASABEgKAifD_BwE
.
https://www.walmart.com/ip/Nexen-SB802-Standard-Touring-All-Season-165-80R15-87T-Tire/850904504
.
And Wallymart even has an economical DD tire at $56 from off-brand "Thunderer" in 165/80TR15 for those needing a non-budget-buster tire to keep their USA 914s on the road & usable.
https://www.walmart.com/ip/Thunderer-Mach-I-R201-165-80R15-87-T-Tire/581342390?wpa_bd=&wpa_pg_seller_id=F55CDC31AB754BB68FE0B39041159D63&wpa_ref_id=wpaqs:- wTzwIL9dCOOEwLKobGi4OwNR8UY4ET5HEN7HwiK9jVIYPgQAsp6jmUmkwzZFwGZ9YYJoTUwhNTE3zkUL
QJUA0YLiuWUxgKkM214dLoK7OIumkdz54XUrulAAhmiUyHH3aFZCMVRxXNGYPCn89XFvTh13eKKhLjJ8
QteCnsaBhapYXdlZ4A75fjHXbgwRcMblNjY_3WoYkVJIUxhnI3EXQ&wpa_tag=&wpa_aux_info=&wpa_pos=1&wpa_plmt=1145x1145_T-C-IG_TI_1-6_HL-INGRID-GRID-NY&wpa_aduid=66135435-e7c9-4b3c-9357-eccb29701912&wpa_pg=browse&wpa_pg_id=91083_1077064&wpa_st=Tires&wpa_tax=91083_1077064&wpa_bucket=__bkt__
.
Bottom line is that there are once again many more choices in the 914's factory sizes of 155/80R15, 165/80R15 & 185/70R15 tires from the $50's on up to suit everybody's budgets - even if not the most aggressive handling tires at the low end.
At least now 914ers can get decent tires to shod their 914s, whereas just a few years ago you could cont them all on one hand or maybe 1.5 hands!
Cheers!
Tom
///////
Posted by: wonkipop Mar 26 2021, 04:24 PM
re radar tyres. a carpenter i know put a set on his twin cab ute, and removed them in less than a month. said it turned his ute lethal in the handling department. sounded like it must have been a very hard compound. i guess people are buying them down here for suv and larger vehicles with big tyres as a budget alternative/long wearing. always a bad combo when it comes to rainy days. the radar dimax tyres might suit a classic sedan type car you are not going to let out in the rain and you cruise around in, but not going to suit a 914, would be no fun and good chance scary if you asked anything from them.
nankang maybe pop those vintage tyres out in batches from time to time. they seem to come and go. i only know one person with nankangs (on a t34 karmann ghia). says they are really good. i remember noticing them probably ten years ago? a kind of XAS copy. at present a tyre shop called antique tyres stocks them down here, but they are branded without the nankang name now, just called Retro Classics. seem to be in the one size only of 185R15 and marketed for owners of the citroen ds. the price on the nankang retro in aus is half the cost of a michelin XAS.
the nankang in the walmart link you posted looks a more regular type of modern tyre and different to their retro. i notice places like cipi (vw) seem to carry them in the 165 size in stock for about $100 usd. i think they would be ok on a stock 1.7/1.8 you just wanted to cruise around in and take quickish runs on curvy roads. might even be better than a vintage tyre like an XAS when it got wet. but don't have vintage tread pattern.
Posted by: davep Apr 10 2021, 08:16 PM
Tom, here is a link:
https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Continental&tireModel=TrueContact+Tour&partnum=865HR5TCT
Yes, up to 4% error due to smaller size, but I can accept that. The tire was rated very high by Canadian Tire; above 99%, and we have Continentals on our VW's as well. These are an experiment for me, and if nothing else can be rim protectors.
Posted by: Tom_T Apr 10 2021, 08:32 PM
Tom, here is a link:
https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Continental&tireModel=TrueContact+Tour&partnum=865HR5TCT
Yes, up to 4% error due to smaller size, but I can accept that. The tire was rated very high by Canadian Tire; above 99%, and we have Continentals on our VW's as well. These are an experiment for me, and if nothing else can be rim protectors.
Thanx Dave,
Now I recall seeing them there, but I initially chose not to list them since they weren't the 185/70R15 alternative option size with minimal speedo/odo errror.
4% isn't as bad as the 8% error on the 195/65R15s that Porsche used to recco for our 914's. Several members on here got burned with excess ghost mileage on their low mile collector 914s in the past by running 195/65R15s.
PS - if Conti made those in 195/65HR14, then I'd try them on my `85 BMW 325e E30 Coupe!
Cheers!
Tom
///////
Posted by: CCE May 9 2022, 06:11 PM
I have steelies on mine.
Just need the hubcaps… soon.
15/5,5
On Pirelli P4 165/65
I do need some spacers, any suggestions?
Posted by: L-Jet914 May 9 2022, 11:54 PM
I have steelies on mine.
Just need the hubcaps… soon.
15/5,5
On Pirelli P4 165/65
I do need some spacers, any suggestions?
If you have factory 914 steel wheels, you shouldn't need spacers. 914 steel wheels have different a different offset than the Beetle wheels. OE part number 914 361 012 02. 5.5x15J H2 ET40.
Posted by: nathanxnathan Jun 23 2022, 04:59 PM
Are the 4.5" steel wheels on an early standard equipment car any different than beetle wheels, the offset?
Posted by: nathanxnathan Jun 30 2022, 02:25 PM
It took me awhile to figure out about the 4.5 inch early steel wheel offsets and I think I have it here. Looks like they are the same as 69 – 74 Ghia wheels, a 46mm offset. I wish they had type 3 wheels listed as I think they are actually from the type 3, not sure which years. Part number 311 601 025 C.
Posted by: wonkipop Jun 30 2022, 07:21 PM
nice chart @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=21899 .
i think the 4.5s are type 3 wheels as you surmise. they are listed as 311 601 025J in the parts catalogue for the 914. not sure what variation or version J means. just minor update is all?
when you go on VW classic germany and look up the parts catalogues for type 3s the wheels are listed as 311 601 025C. same wheel on a 411/412 as well. i think it stops at C on those catalogues just because they are older catalogues they have on line which only go to the c version listing. but anyway 914 catalogue says its J version.
after that the wheels are all 5.5s with 40mm offset. same for star steelie version.
Posted by: nathanxnathan Jun 30 2022, 10:35 PM
nice chart @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=21899 .
i think the 4.5s are type 3 wheels as you surmise. they are listed as 311 601 025J in the parts catalogue for the 914. not sure what variation or version J means. just minor update is all?
when you go on VW classic germany and look up the parts catalogues for type 3s the wheels are listed as 311 601 025C. same wheel on a 411/412 as well. i think it stops at C on those catalogues just because they are older catalogues they have on line which only go to the c version listing. but anyway 914 catalogue says its J version.
after that the wheels are all 5.5s with 40mm offset. same for star steelie version.
On page 5 of this thread (15 years ago lol) DaveP said
We have the 4.5" & 5.5" early steel painted, 5.5" early steel chrome, late styled 5.5" painted, Pedrini, Fuchs and Mahle alloys, Pedrini and Fuchs for the non hub-centric as varieties, and two LE varieties of the Mahles for the 914/4. I'm not sure how many of the early steel wheels were tube type rims; the 'J' designation is for tubeless varieties. I believe everything from at least 1973 MY on had tubeless rims as standard.
I think later it was stated that there are some safety concerns about running radials on anything pre 73, the J wheels for tubed tires, but I'm not super worried. I'm looking for some 4.5 J x 15's for my project. My ocd side is willing to wait for a 8/69 – 7/70 date matched set but we'll see what comes up and keep looking for now
Edit — I thought you were talking about the J in 4.5 J x 15 — but you meant in the part number. I'm assuming you have a vintage copy of the 914 parts catalog?
Posted by: wonkipop Jul 1 2022, 03:46 AM
nice chart @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=21899 .
i think the 4.5s are type 3 wheels as you surmise. they are listed as 311 601 025J in the parts catalogue for the 914. not sure what variation or version J means. just minor update is all?
when you go on VW classic germany and look up the parts catalogues for type 3s the wheels are listed as 311 601 025C. same wheel on a 411/412 as well. i think it stops at C on those catalogues just because they are older catalogues they have on line which only go to the c version listing. but anyway 914 catalogue says its J version.
after that the wheels are all 5.5s with 40mm offset. same for star steelie version.
On page 5 of this thread (15 years ago lol) DaveP said
We have the 4.5" & 5.5" early steel painted, 5.5" early steel chrome, late styled 5.5" painted, Pedrini, Fuchs and Mahle alloys, Pedrini and Fuchs for the non hub-centric as varieties, and two LE varieties of the Mahles for the 914/4. I'm not sure how many of the early steel wheels were tube type rims; the 'J' designation is for tubeless varieties. I believe everything from at least 1973 MY on had tubeless rims as standard.
I think later it was stated that there are some safety concerns about running radials on anything pre 73, the J wheels for tubed tires, but I'm not super worried. I'm looking for some 4.5 J x 15's for my project. My ocd side is willing to wait for a 8/69 – 7/70 date matched set but we'll see what comes up and keep looking for now
Edit — I thought you were talking about the J in 4.5 J x 15 — but you meant in the part number. I'm assuming you have a vintage copy of the 914 parts catalog?
no - i don't have vintage parts manuals.
so you can't quite figure out if they are talking about what ultimately supercedes and what was original at the time.
i think i have had the same exasperating experiences as you trying to figure it out.
i think the parts manuals on the VW classic site in germany that you can access are actually period pieces from the time. and the 914 ones you can download are updated into the early 21st century. they don't have 914 parts catalogues on the VW classic site. its a nightmare picking through it. you even wonder if VW just stick up some stuff on their site for mere convenience. and the catalogues are the german ones - so don't cover USA market. i'd love to be able to pull down an aus market parts catalogue, i know they existed. but try and find one.
i've got no idea what a J update on a type 3 wheel would be.
but i do think that you are right. the narrow wheel 914s were running type 3 steel wheels and so did 411 and 412s.
what i do know is the offset on the star steelies on the 914 is different from the star steelies on the beetles in 1974. in fact the beetles offset it out to give a wider wheel appearance than the 914s. the germans were all over the shop as we say in australia.\
going back to the wheel spare part no.
the type 3 wheel is always called a 311 601 025
and in the beginning that is actually that primitive 5 bolt wheel.
by the time you get to 311 601 025C - thats when it turns into the 4 bolt wheel for the disc brake front end with vent slots around it. classic vw late 60s wheel.
and then they just keep adding D E F G H I and "J".
because somehow they keep doing little mods to it.
whatever they are.
so the 914 gets the 311 601 025 J.
and i have no idea why that is different to 311 601 025 C.
but main thing is it is still a type 3 wheel and they just keep bolting it on.
type3 s, type 4s and 914s.
so bringing up radials and tubeless tyres.
yes, you are probably right.
but i would not have a clue.
but there must be little things they do.
what they are, i do not know.
Posted by: nathanxnathan Jul 1 2022, 12:12 PM
no - i don't have vintage parts manuals.
so you can't quite figure out if they are talking about what ultimately supercedes and what was original at the time.
i think i have had the same exasperating experiences as you trying to figure it out.
i think the parts manuals on the VW classic site in germany that you can access are actually period pieces from the time. and the 914 ones you can download are updated into the early 21st century. they don't have 914 parts catalogues on the VW classic site. its a nightmare picking through it. you even wonder if VW just stick up some stuff on their site for mere convenience. and the catalogues are the german ones - so don't cover USA market. i'd love to be able to pull down an aus market parts catalogue, i know they existed. but try and find one.
i've got no idea what a J update on a type 3 wheel would be.
but i do think that you are right. the narrow wheel 914s were running type 3 steel wheels and so did 411 and 412s.
what i do know is the offset on the star steelies on the 914 is different from the star steelies on the beetles in 1974. in fact the beetles offset it out to give a wider wheel appearance than the 914s. the germans were all over the shop as we say in australia.\
going back to the wheel spare part no.
the type 3 wheel is always called a 311 601 025
and in the beginning that is actually that primitive 5 bolt wheel.
by the time you get to 311 601 025C - thats when it turns into the 4 bolt wheel for the disc brake front end with vent slots around it. classic vw late 60s wheel.
and then they just keep adding D E F G H I and "J".
because somehow they keep doing little mods to it.
whatever they are.
so the 914 gets the 311 601 025 J.
and i have no idea why that is different to 311 601 025 C.
but main thing is it is still a type 3 wheel and they just keep bolting it on.
type3 s, type 4s and 914s.
so bringing up radials and tubeless tyres.
yes, you are probably right.
but i would not have a clue.
but there must be little things they do.
what they are, i do not know.
Ah, nice! I didn't realize the German Classic Parts site had "Ersatzteilkataloges"! After looking at the type 3 one, I realize the "TL" and "Variant" at least do refer to Type 3's — I'm still a bit confused about the name of type 3's, like they call a notchback a "1500" (which is an engine size I would think), a squareback is a "variant" and a fastback is a "TL".
Here's the listing of the wheels in the type 3 catalogue
1 and 2 you can see are wide bolt pattern in the pic
So 3, which is "C" part number and the "–" are the ones. The "–" means not pictured and is for M 263 which ocr traced and translated is
M 263 powerful truck mounts for required payloads 361-388 from chassis no. 367 030 001
316 000 001 is august '65. They don't list 367 030 001 specifically, but it's between August and December of 70.
That catalog only goes to the start of the 72 model year and type 3's were produced until 73, so there's some info missing, but it is helpful.
I got pretty good at interpreting the catalogs when I did the "Sliced Bread" bus part finder site.
Posted by: nathanxnathan Jul 15 2022, 09:03 PM
That's great and professional information. And a fantastic resource to have. If you could walk me through the entire process, that would be great.
Sorry, without email notifications, it's hard to follow up sometimes — I think originality and history forum doesn't get posted to the home page so you have to check here specifically?
Anyway, I think you are talking about the VW classic site, how to get to the part catalogs? It's the volkswagen-classic-parts.com site, but if you choose Duetsch in the upper right it takes you to here https://www.volkswagen-classic-parts.com/de_de/
Then in the main menu under service, on the far right is "Ersatzteilkataloge"
They only have VW models though, no 914...but...
Posted by: nathanxnathan Jul 15 2022, 09:14 PM
Since I posted I hooked up with the parts catalogue with illustrations — I'm kind of a nerd for this stuff.
It's not as good as I'd like — the VW parts catalogues have like bolt sizes and more info generally. Still it has some interesting info. Here is the only 4 lug wheel illustration. It's weird that they only show a Pedrini and it's dated 1/73 which would be up to 73 model year. They have the 2L Fuchs in the description, the second #8, but not the 4 lug Mahles which I thought they did have in 73.
Anyway it turns out there IS a "J" version — so weird they skipped every version from C until J? Seems the C version was available previous to 73 model year when they just had 914/4, and then they got the J version once they started differentiating 914 1.7 and 914 2.0 which was I think 73 my. I was thinking that may be when they started making the wheels hub centric, though I thought that was just the alloy wheels — perhaps the change was for that.
Posted by: wonkipop Jul 16 2022, 06:11 PM
@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=21899
don't apologize for being a nerd.
step up from a wonk.
looks like you enjoyed cruising around in the VW classic website catalogues.
they have limitations. all in german so you got work your google translator or speak german! and they are not all up to the very end of the model in some cases and they do not seem to cover particular USA market variations. for instance the USA 412 L-Jet is not there.
you got some good stuff on your files.
interesting variation of parts catalogue you have there.
you got a hard copy?
can help you out with some things re the A B C D E and so on variations i think and maybe how the parts numbers work in chronological sequence.
and its typical VW inside out and back to front thinking.
but it made sense to them probably.
1) i believe that the first three numbers of the parts number sequence are the model the part is first used on. so if its a beetle its a 111. or if a type 3 for instance its 311.
so that is the first thing that can throw you out. some of the missing numbers of the wheel variants are because they have a different first three numbers depending on which model that particular steel wheel was first on.
2) the second bunch of two lots of three numberss describe the part. ie steel wheel.
for the most part the steel wheels in all their variations carry these numbers.
601 025.
i say for the most part, because there are some funny exceptions in there which i cannot explain. these are minor exceptions.
3) the letter at the end denotes the chronological sequence in the evolution or variations of the wheel. no letter = first. A = second.
posted below the pages from catalogue for one of the beetle variants. i think this is from the 1303 catalogue.
whats interesting is the star steelies follow on chronologically from the standard steel wheels with hub cabs. same part number. just a different letter at the end.
when you look at the 914 parts catalogue the star steelie does not get a VW part number - it is given a specific 914 part number. what that means is that particular star steelie went on the 914 first - and is unique to the 914. offsets etc. it is not shared with other VWs. as a result its got a porsche parts # not a VW parts #.
wheels from beetle catalogue
wheels from 914 catalogue
you can see a lot of the variation letter sequence between D and L is there in the beetle parts catalogue. not all. but most. the remaining missing ones are probably in other beetle parts catalogues (there are several) or possible in the bus catalogues?
-------------
re type 3s and 1500s and 1600s.
not sure what type 3 s were badged as in the USA for marketing.
but this is how it goes and how we got them in australia where we had the same range as the german market cars right through the production run, including the panel vans.
1500s were the first version for about three years or so.
two models. the notchback and squareback.
the real early ones had a single carb and were awful.
very quickly there was a 1500 twin carb introduced.
maybe only one year of single carbs. 1963 or 64, something like that.
then the 1600 came in.
twin carb. bigger engine.
the fastback was introduced.
1967 or 68. around then.
full range down here was notchback, fastback, squareback (called a variant here).
all had the same engine. twin carb 1600.
towards the end they got extended noses. around 70 or 71.
some D jet fastbacks were sold in australia.
marketed as the most expensive and luxurious version.
called a TLE. the notchback and variant did not get D-Jet.
i used to know a bit about type 3s but it was half a life-time ago.
trivia. the nickname for the fastback in australia was "the pastie".
or pasty as sometimes spelt.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pasty
Posted by: L-Jet914 Dec 22 2022, 11:57 PM
@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=21899
don't apologize for being a nerd.
step up from a wonk.
looks like you enjoyed cruising around in the VW classic website catalogues.
they have limitations. all in german so you got work your google translator or speak german! and they are not all up to the very end of the model in some cases and they do not seem to cover particular USA market variations. for instance the USA 412 L-Jet is not there.
you got some good stuff on your files.
interesting variation of parts catalogue you have there.
you got a hard copy?
can help you out with some things re the A B C D E and so on variations i think and maybe how the parts numbers work in chronological sequence.
and its typical VW inside out and back to front thinking.
but it made sense to them probably.
1) i believe that the first three numbers of the parts number sequence are the model the part is first used on. so if its a beetle its a 111. or if a type 3 for instance its 311.
so that is the first thing that can throw you out. some of the missing numbers of the wheel variants are because they have a different first three numbers depending on which model that particular steel wheel was first on.
2) the second bunch of two lots of three numberss describe the part. ie steel wheel.
for the most part the steel wheels in all their variations carry these numbers.
601 025.
i say for the most part, because there are some funny exceptions in there which i cannot explain. these are minor exceptions.
3) the letter at the end denotes the chronological sequence in the evolution or variations of the wheel. no letter = first. A = second.
posted below the pages from catalogue for one of the beetle variants. i think this is from the 1303 catalogue.
whats interesting is the star steelies follow on chronologically from the standard steel wheels with hub cabs. same part number. just a different letter at the end.
when you look at the 914 parts catalogue the star steelie does not get a VW part number - it is given a specific 914 part number. what that means is that particular star steelie went on the 914 first - and is unique to the 914. offsets etc. it is not shared with other VWs. as a result its got a porsche parts # not a VW parts #.
wheels from beetle catalogue
wheels from 914 catalogue
you can see a lot of the variation letter sequence between D and L is there in the beetle parts catalogue. not all. but most. the remaining missing ones are probably in other beetle parts catalogues (there are several) or possible in the bus catalogues?
-------------
re type 3s and 1500s and 1600s.
not sure what type 3 s were badged as in the USA for marketing.
but this is how it goes and how we got them in australia where we had the same range as the german market cars right through the production run, including the panel vans.
1500s were the first version for about three years or so.
two models. the notchback and squareback.
the real early ones had a single carb and were awful.
very quickly there was a 1500 twin carb introduced.
maybe only one year of single carbs. 1963 or 64, something like that.
then the 1600 came in.
twin carb. bigger engine.
the fastback was introduced.
1967 or 68. around then.
full range down here was notchback, fastback, squareback (called a variant here).
all had the same engine. twin carb 1600.
towards the end they got extended noses. around 70 or 71.
some D jet fastbacks were sold in australia.
marketed as the most expensive and luxurious version.
called a TLE. the notchback and variant did not get D-Jet.
i used to know a bit about type 3s but it was half a life-time ago.
trivia. the nickname for the fastback in australia was "the pastie".
or pasty as sometimes spelt.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pasty
In the US we had the Fastback (coupe) and Squareback (estate/station wagon) for the Type 3's starting in '66 per wiki.
Posted by: skota23 Jan 16 2023, 10:44 PM
Here’s the spare from my 74. I don’t think I’ve seen these weights before. Is there name for this wheel. The rest of the wheels have been painted black and have old 205/65 tires. They will be refinished in silver and going with 185 Vredestein classics or cn36’s.
Posted by: wonkipop Jan 17 2023, 12:34 AM
Here’s the spare from my 74. I don’t think I’ve seen these weights before. Is there name for this wheel. The rest of the wheels have been painted black and have old 205/65 tires. They will be refinished in silver and going with 185 Vredestein classics or cn36’s.
VW steel wheel from 1974 on.
you have the correct wheels for the car.
commonly referred to as VW sport wheel.
offsets etc particular to 914.
beetles of same era had similar with different offsets.
(see posts above with info on that).
nice choice of tyres for the wheels.
keep those wheels.
they never used to be appreciated but they are so good.
i have a set on my 74 as well and have never been tempted into replacing them with alloys.
slang for the wheels in USA = star steelies.
here in aus the VW folks called them X rims.
highly sought after by aussie vw nerds as were never on any australian VWs.
Posted by: CCE Jan 25 2023, 12:15 AM
Got the covers now.
Unfortunately the originals where long gone beyond repair when I got the car. I did keep the center cap for the old ones
Posted by: 914rrr Jan 27 2023, 09:52 AM
What is the correct color and type of paint (metallic, non-metallic, single stage, etc.) used on 5.5 x 15 sport steel wheels aka "star steelies" on a 74 2.0? Also, are the flat plastic center caps for these NLA? Thanks!
Posted by: wonkipop Jan 27 2023, 01:02 PM
What is the correct color and type of paint (metallic, non-metallic, single stage, etc.) used on 5.5 x 15 sport steel wheels aka "star steelies" on a 74 2.0? Also, are the flat plastic center caps for these NLA? Thanks!
outer face.
silver - VW color L97u Grey Aluminium.
or RAL 9007. ask a paint shop for RAL 9007 you should get it mixed right.
(straight up single stage - it was a semi gloss or satin finish originally).
rear face.
black or very dark grey.
the centre caps are flat black plastic press ins.
Pelican Psrts used to have them but look to be NLA on their website.
the diam is 56mm outer.
these might work. close to the very plain originals.
https://www.amazon.com.au/56mm-Black-Wheel-Center-Caps/dp/B073SR3Q9J
this variety are available from VW classic parts retailers.
but its the one for beetles. looks like a fake nut.
not what 914s had. but it would fit.
https://www2.cip1.com/vwc-111-601-171-set/
wheel bolts had plastic press on covers. "fake bolts"
pelican still has them.
https://www.pelicanparts.com/More_Info/111601173.htm?pn=111-601-173-OEM&SVSVSI=4259&DID=201382
also available from VW classic parts retailers
https://www2.cip1.com/stock-steel-wheels/
Posted by: 914rrr Jan 27 2023, 03:14 PM
What is the correct color and type of paint (metallic, non-metallic, single stage, etc.) used on 5.5 x 15 sport steel wheels aka "star steelies" on a 74 2.0? Also, are the flat plastic center caps for these NLA? Thanks!
outer face.
silver - VW color L97u Grey Aluminium.
or RAL 9007. ask a paint shop for RAL 9007 you should get it mixed right.
(straight up single stage - it was a semi gloss or satin finish originally).
rear face.
black or very dark grey.
the centre caps are flat black plastic press ins.
Pelican Psrts used to have them but look to be NLA on their website.
the diam is 56mm outer.
these might work. close to the very plain originals.
https://www.amazon.com.au/56mm-Black-Wheel-Center-Caps/dp/B073SR3Q9J
this variety are available from VW classic parts retailers.
but its the one for beetles. looks like a fake nut.
not what 914s had. but it would fit.
https://www2.cip1.com/vwc-111-601-171-set/
wheel bolts had plastic press on covers. "fake bolts"
pelican still has them.
https://www.pelicanparts.com/More_Info/111601173.htm?pn=111-601-173-OEM&SVSVSI=4259&DID=201382
also available from VW classic parts retailers
https://www2.cip1.com/stock-steel-wheels/
Thanks for all the info !! BTW, if somebody has a couple of the center caps I'd appreciate it !! Condition unimportant.
I did see earlier in this thread where rattle can Wurth or Wyeth White Alloy paint is correct or close.
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=74857&st=320
I was asking since I have a set of rusty star steelies that I want to put on my car during resto, along with a set of quasi-matching tires that hold air, plastic bolt caps and plastic center caps so it doesn't look quite so janky in the garage when the garage door opens. I currently live in a gated community / leased townhome and need to keep the neighbors happy.
I'd like to put a "10 footer" coat of rattle can paint on the wheels that is "close" to OE but doesn't cost $30 per can. Any tips on a lower cost alternative rattle can paint would be appreciated.
Posted by: wonkipop Jan 27 2023, 03:23 PM
What is the correct color and type of paint (metallic, non-metallic, single stage, etc.) used on 5.5 x 15 sport steel wheels aka "star steelies" on a 74 2.0? Also, are the flat plastic center caps for these NLA? Thanks!
outer face.
silver - VW color L97u Grey Aluminium.
or RAL 9007. ask a paint shop for RAL 9007 you should get it mixed right.
(straight up single stage - it was a semi gloss or satin finish originally).
rear face.
black or very dark grey.
the centre caps are flat black plastic press ins.
Pelican Psrts used to have them but look to be NLA on their website.
the diam is 56mm outer.
these might work. close to the very plain originals.
https://www.amazon.com.au/56mm-Black-Wheel-Center-Caps/dp/B073SR3Q9J
this variety are available from VW classic parts retailers.
but its the one for beetles. looks like a fake nut.
not what 914s had. but it would fit.
https://www2.cip1.com/vwc-111-601-171-set/
wheel bolts had plastic press on covers. "fake bolts"
pelican still has them.
https://www.pelicanparts.com/More_Info/111601173.htm?pn=111-601-173-OEM&SVSVSI=4259&DID=201382
also available from VW classic parts retailers
https://www2.cip1.com/stock-steel-wheels/
Thanks for all the info !! BTW, if somebody has a couple of the center caps I'd appreciate it !! Condition unimportant.
I did see earlier in this thread where rattle can Wurth or Wyeth White Alloy paint is correct or close.
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=74857&st=320
I was asking since I have a set of rusty star steelies that I want to put on my car during resto, along with a set of quasi-matching tires that hold air, plastic bolt caps and plastic center caps so it doesn't look quite so janky in the garage when the garage door opens. I currently live in a gated community / leased townhome and need to keep the neighbors happy.
I'd like to put a "10 footer" coat of rattle can paint on the wheels that is "close" to OE but doesn't cost $30 per can. Any tips on a lower cost alternative rattle can paint would be appreciated.
the wurth will be close for your purposes.
another one that is close is ford "argent silver".
i have had my 914 alongside a steel wheel ford here. both with original paint.
indistinguishable.
the ford color might be pretty common as a rattle can color from an everyday auto parts chain store.
its called argent silver in australia, but i assume its the same colour for ford usa.
if you are just making it look decent, i'd suggest mail ordering the centre caps for the VW version and grab the plastic bolt covers as well from CIPI. pretty cheap and easy solution in one package.
Posted by: 914rrr Feb 14 2023, 09:47 PM
Forgive me if I missed this on this thread. Does anyone have close up pics of the stamped #'s / markings on 5 1/5 x 15 plain steel wheels? I think I have a full set of these but they're so crusty I can't find the markings on them.
BTW, are there any awards for the crustiest, nastiest steel wheels? I have one sport steel wheel with large gaping rust holes in the front of the rim!
Posted by: 914rrr Mar 18 2023, 04:23 PM
I may have stumbled onto a decent facsimile of white alloy / argent silver rattle can paint. I used Glidden Shining Armor Satin spray paint that I picked up at Home Depot. I'm going for a 10 footer kind of paint job on these wheels while the my teener is under resto. I did a quick couple of passes with coarse and 0000 steel wool. One benefit is that this is a paint + primer and covers incredibly well. I've painted 3 wheels with 2 light coats and still have paint left in my first can.
Here's a before and after shot.
Posted by: 914rrr Mar 18 2023, 04:42 PM
Another one...
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