Printable Version of Topic

Posted by: davep Sep 23 2007, 06:23 PM

I require help with my research.
Typically, the VW badge was riveted to the right headlight bucket up to the end of 1974 and made its way to the right upper corner of the fuel tank bulkhead in 1975. Also, the body number was originally stamped into the rear trunk floor and made its was to a black riveted tag on the support below the right headlight bucket, as well as being found on the Karmann badge. At some point the body number base changed from xxy95zz to xxy90zz.

I require everyone to help with changeover VIN, and body number for each of the changes. Please add paint code and date code from the compliance decal as well.


Attached image(s)

Posted by: johannes Sep 24 2007, 11:55 AM

mine has the plate on the tank bulkhead. 475900062
Car date 07-74
Body tag in the spare well on the right 3349508


Attached image(s)

Posted by: Blood red 914-6gt Sep 24 2007, 12:31 PM

My car date says 07/74.
The plate is up on the headlight bucket.
Then there is another plate below the other actually located in the spare tire well that says 284-9514. This number is also on the tag that has the paint code on it.
Paint code is L 32 K. Tag located on the front of the driver door jam.

Posted by: dpolson Sep 24 2007, 06:28 PM

My late '74 LE (...1221) has the body tag down in the spare well on the right. Attached is a photo.

Posted by: kconway Sep 24 2007, 09:32 PM

My 74 has the plate riveted to the right headlight bucket.
Compliance tag says 07/74
Paint Code L96B
Body Number in spare tire well 274-9561

Kev

Posted by: Jeff Bowlsby Sep 25 2007, 03:27 PM

Dave,

The lastest VIN I have data on from the LE Registry with the chassis number in the rear trunk, not on a plate in the front trunk is car VIN 16556, 4/74, Chassis no 1429551.

The two LEs in the 21000 VIN range, have them in the front trunk, per Dave Os post above.

So the change must have happened between week 14 and 27.

Posted by: davep Sep 25 2007, 09:06 PM

Jeff, you are correct, but I did not expect that it might extend so early into 1974. We may need to get a lot of responses to nail this down. I guess my problem is that I rarely see late '74 cars, and few from 1975 or 1976.

The split between 9500 and 9000 base is in either week 36 or week 37.
The last 9500 body is near 4752903042 and the first 9000 body is near 4752901848; that is quite an overlap.

It will be interesting to see if any '74' bodies were used in 1975 or '75' bodies in 1974. The latter looks highly unlikely now.

Posted by: Gustl Sep 26 2007, 11:04 AM

Dave, here are my car's numbers / badges:

47.4.29.20436
06 / 74


Attached thumbnail(s)

Posted by: Gustl Sep 26 2007, 11:06 AM

2639549

L 65 K




Attached thumbnail(s)


Attached image(s)

Posted by: Johny Blackstain Sep 26 2007, 12:00 PM

LE has no little plate in the lower front trunk & I have no idea what those are; the Six has no little plate either. Here's the LE- VW plate on the light bucket & chasis stamped into the top of the right fender well.


Attached image(s)

Posted by: Johny Blackstain Sep 26 2007, 12:03 PM

LE VIN plate & Kharmann badge-


Attached image(s)

Posted by: Johny Blackstain Sep 26 2007, 12:06 PM

LE VIN sticker & trunk stamping, on right side in front of the tail light. The six has no VIN sticker & the trunk stamping is in the middle, in front of the lock.


Attached image(s)

Posted by: davep Sep 26 2007, 04:32 PM

That helps guys. Gustl's car moved the week back to 26.
Al, the early cars did not have the tag, only the rear trunk stamping. The stamping was in the center of the trunk in 1970. Decals either get lost during a repaint, or were not there for European cars. The windshield frame tag was not on European cars either.

Posted by: Pat Garvey Sep 26 2007, 08:18 PM

This is cool stuff!

If I keep watching & retaining (yeah, right) this stuff I could become a 914 expert!

Or...not, because I'd have to crawl out of my little "early car" world.
Pat

ps - this post doesn't count

Posted by: Johny Blackstain Sep 26 2007, 08:41 PM

Dave- the six is a US car, has a windshield VIN plate, stamped in, not raised. Vin sticker is long, long gone. Karmann plate is typical six in that there is no chassis number, (131942 in the trunk), & barely says 15.


Attached image(s)

Posted by: HAM Inc Sep 27 2007, 10:33 AM

Dave I turned my 74 into a F-Prod car. I stripped it pretty completely. It has a tag in the spare tire area, but I can't read it as the fuel cell is now blocking it.
No #'s stamped in the trunk area, but this car had been crunched in the right rear and repaired before I bought it and the sheet metal in that area was replaced.

Posted by: davep Sep 27 2007, 11:10 AM

Does it have the black tag as shown in the photos above? Even the presence or absence of the black tag is important to know. We can learn quite a bit from that alone.

Posted by: HAM Inc Sep 27 2007, 02:03 PM

Yep, it had the black tag. Hope that helps!

Posted by: woobn8r Oct 2 2007, 10:15 AM

My '74 VIN# 4742917230 has only two rivet holes in the support by the inner wheel well where the "black plate" once (I assume) resided . There are no stampings I can find in the rear trunk by the tailight.

My compliance sticker (which is Silver, not Black) dates this car as 04/74.

The Karman badge shows Chassis # 1659541 and shows L30E as the paint code.

The VW plate is also missing however, there are no rivet holes (or evidence of) in either the headlight bucket or the fuel tank bulkhead....and I have looked very carefully.

I do have some (poor) pictures I can e-mail you as I am too stupid to know how to post them here....

Hope this helps

Sean

Posted by: davep Oct 2 2007, 11:05 AM

Sean, send me the photos, and I'll post them.

VIN 4742916556 1429551 04/74 last known before use so far
VIN 4742917230 1659541 04/74 first known use so far

So we still have a two week / 700 car span to tie down.

Posted by: woobn8r Oct 2 2007, 12:13 PM

What's your e-mail...
S.

Posted by: shelby/914 Oct 3 2007, 08:22 PM

Here's the data on my '74

Posted by: shelby/914 Oct 3 2007, 08:25 PM

one more, and no #s in the rear trunk

Posted by: sendjonathanmail Oct 4 2007, 05:30 PM

S/N: 4742915316 BUILD DATE: 3/74 BODY #: 1039507

Posted by: davep Oct 4 2007, 07:42 PM

Please be very specific in your replies. Check both front and rear trunks for the number. It should be in one of the two places. Please state which place you find it.

It seems to me that woobn8r may have some panels replaced since there is no evidence of the VW AG Made in Germany tag anywhere including rivet holes for it.

My VIN 4742915759 body # 1149545 so we have proof here that the tags started after week 11. Sorry Jon, better look for trunk floor replacement?

Here is my body number stamping, note that it is in front of the right taillight (and the bolt for the rear bumper) and next to the rear sway-bar reinforcement:


Attached image(s)

Posted by: sendjonathanmail Oct 4 2007, 08:27 PM

alright dave...took a better look, and found it...it is very hard to see because the metal back there in that section is a bit deformed....you can read XX39507 ... the first two numbers are right on the worst part of the metal, but the numbers match...Im gonna see if I can clean the area up a bit...will take pics -JON

Posted by: ClayPerrine Oct 4 2007, 09:33 PM

Dave,
I got your note. Betty's vin is 4742917597. The build date on her car is 4/74. We don't have the door jamb sticker, we lost it in the fire. And I can't check the rear trunk, the panel was replaced when the body work was done.


Here is the tag in the front trunk (sorry for the Andy style picts).





And here is the body tag.




Hope that helps narrow down your search.

Posted by: davep Oct 4 2007, 09:57 PM

Thanks Clay, that does indeed prove the use of the tag early in week 18.

Jon, yes the digits can be very hard to see. They were not done with any great precision, and are never as clear as the VIN in the front fender. Almost any accident in that corner will wrinkle the metal, then a bit of bondo and it is well hidden. Thankfully yours still exists.

I just need Dan to confirm, one way or the other, the presence of the tag in his front trunk. We may also need to find a few cars in week 15 and 17.

Lets not forget, we still have to start to nail down the change from base 9500 to base 9000 in the period of week 36 and week 37. These are the closest I have:
4752903042 3559575
4752901848 3749146

Posted by: woobn8r Oct 5 2007, 09:47 AM

Dave I sent you another pic as requested....
I am confused....I had a friend (Porsche bodyman of 20+ years) look at the panels and here's the consensus....

there is no evidence of panel replacement...we looked for at scenarios from a headlight bucket to an entire front clip. The paint is consistant. The seams are consistant...nothing looks out of place save, the missing rivet holes...

IF there has been any panel replacement...

a ) it is a "TOP Quality" job...possibly done at the factory (possibly if the chassis was damaged prior to paint and assembly ).
b ) If done after production, it must have been shortly after... as the patina and condition are homogenious...it is unlikely panels have been replaced as the quality, care and attention to detail would have taken so much time in this generally "unseen area" for this type of repair, it would cost an inordinate amount of time and money. An industry acceptable repair (even for a PORSCHE) would be detectable.

However unlikely it seems that panels might have been replaced....it IS possible.

Sean

Posted by: davep Oct 5 2007, 12:17 PM

Sean has provided the following photos. I have no idea why there is no rivet holes for the VW badge on the headlight bucket unless it was replaced by a 1975 bucket.


Attached image(s)

Posted by: davep Oct 5 2007, 12:20 PM

closeup shows no holes in bucket, but holes for the body tag.


Attached image(s)

Posted by: davep Oct 5 2007, 12:21 PM

other info


Attached image(s)

Posted by: jaminM3 Oct 6 2007, 02:43 PM

Here is a car that was on Ebay( I have been keeping track)

4752902336 3929161 L64K, don't have the date..

Posted by: davep Oct 7 2007, 07:07 PM

Well, Dan (shelby/914) confirms he has the number stamped in the rear trunk. Also, Sean (woobn8r) is pretty confident his should have the tag in the front. So it seems we have it nailed down to midweek 16. So we need to concentrate on that week for the first part of the challenge.

VIN 4742916989 1629515 04/74 last known before use so far
VIN 4742917230 1659541 04/74 first known use so far

Posted by: sendjonathanmail Oct 19 2007, 04:52 PM

took some pics (finally) of the tags in different locations. '74









-JON

Posted by: davep Apr 9 2020, 10:21 PM

It has been only 13 years, but it is time to resurrect this thread so that new people can add new information. Two things that we are looking for: 1) VIN & Karmann # on the tag in the front trunk when it first appeared, or the last use of the rear trunk stamping. The Karmann # is also on the paint tag. 2) VIN & Karmann # on the tag in the front trunk when it changed from the base 9500 to base 9000. Paint tag and compliance decal photos also very useful. Do you have a CoA or window sticker? I need them also.

Posted by: davep Nov 15 2021, 07:49 AM

So, no response in the last year, but I am forever hopeful. Do not forget that this is important documentation for your car. I would really like to get more data points to narrow the gaps down.
Dave

Posted by: sixnotfour Jan 24 2022, 08:50 PM

Posted by: wonkipop Jan 24 2022, 10:13 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=1244

don't know if this assists with your research.
had this on file from 1.8 research/survey we did late last year.

vin 4742916808
k# 1529514
k# is stamped in rear trunk.
no k# plate in front trunk.

it is a white 74 1.8. i picked up details from a bat advertisement.









member @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=15080 has chassis # 16877 built the day after.
if you pm L jet he might be able to give you info on his.
L jet turned out to be more than a bit of a sleuth with some amazing stuff from CARB archives.

Posted by: wonkipop Jan 25 2022, 02:13 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=1244

have you tried to pm member oakpark. has 16905.
oakpark is still alive and around i believe, he contacted both StarBear and i over tune up stickers not that long ago.

front yard mechanic has 17131 according to vin register. he is active on the site and can be pm'd.

Posted by: davep Jan 25 2022, 07:56 PM

Thanks for the data point. I have a list of 250 cars to query the owners of. However it is slow going, and I have to track each one to know where I am at.
Dave

Posted by: wonkipop Jan 26 2022, 03:40 AM

yep, its a slog.


it is an interesting change.
suggests to me that management for the 914 project (porsche at that point?) were looking for flexibility in terms of assigning a build order number to the body shells?

stamping numbers into the shell itself implies to me a number was already assigned in advance of the shell being made to a particular build spec, ie 1.8 or 2.0 with whatever was required of the order, but it was in advance of the build. as if production was behind demand.

but perhaps they went on during 74 to build up an excess of production potential in surplus to demand/sales and needed to hold back until they knew what they were fulfilling as an order or mix of model specs?

Posted by: L-Jet914 Feb 1 2022, 07:52 PM

I just got around to logging into the website after a while. Saw the notification that @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=24231 mentioned me here. What kind of information did you need?

Posted by: MCShack Mar 10 2022, 01:33 PM

I logged on to find Dave with a similar question to ask and ran across this thread while searching the 1975 model year chassis numbers for cars made in Sept/Oct of 1974.

Years ago I started a small database on these cars and never got back to it until now.

Here is another to add on the base change from 9500 to 9000 chassis numbers.

VIN Number: 4752901849
Engine Number: EV Conversion
Chassis Number: 3749284
Build Date: 09/74
Paint Code/Color: L64K - Forest Green

Posted by: MCShack Mar 10 2022, 01:50 PM

Notice that the 5th digit (3rd from end) in the Chassis Number is a "2" which I have found to be quite rare. I am trying to determine the reason for a 2 or a 3 in this position of the Chassis Numbers on certain 914s. Almost all of the ones I have found with a 1, 2, or 3 were made in the 37th week (2nd week of Sept) of 1974 on '75 MY 914s. I have found a few examples of this ranging from week 36 to week 41, but most are in week 37. I plan to start a new thread on this subject with a few examples to get things started to see what the explanation might be for the anomalies in the Chassis Numbers in these weeks other than there were 284 cars made that day which seems unlikely. I found another example with a Chassis Number of 3719361 and I also don't think they made 361 cars on a Monday, lol.

I have some more information and theories that I will share in the new thread which I will post a link to here since it is a related subject. Thank you for your time and I look forward to hearing from some of you with knowledge on this matter. Cheers, MC

Posted by: wonkipop Mar 12 2022, 05:52 AM

found something of interest for you mate.
i posted it up in the other thread you left your comments on in the garage section.

this is a week 37 of 1974 beetle cab (75MY) built at karmann.





https://www.gocars.org/for-sale-view-38210/1975-volkswagen-beetle-in-indianapolis-indiana-46268

most beetles from karmann i dug up were using 3 as 5th letter during 75 MY.
then i found this one. so maybe using 2 and 3?
(i did find one using 0 from week 42 but the tag looked suspect).

so as you say, whats a 914 doing using 2 (and its the same week!)

you are on to something.
not sure what.
but something happened that week.

EDIT
did some further crosschecking for you as i don't know beetles kgs etc well.
i took a look at the vin plates on those beetles.
the one above is definitely a 75MY. 155 for first three numbers of vin.
it was built in aug 74.

Posted by: davep Mar 18 2022, 06:19 PM

It would appear then that the 914 shared the Karmann line with Beetles, and the Karmann build # could be for either model. What we need to do then is to gather more examples of the Karmann tag numbers, VIN, DOT labels and paint codes and see how they fit. My guess is that they mesh.

Posted by: wonkipop Mar 19 2022, 03:39 PM

yes, i think your suggestion of sharing the line with beetle cabriolets in late 74 for 75 MY could be the reason.

you can find all those factory photos showing that kgs and vw cabs came down the line together in earlier years.

in the 60s it looked karmann put three types through all mixed togehter inclluding type 3 ghias.

what photos there are of 914 production seem to show them having their own separate production line. photos i mention probably at an early period of the model life?

the production figures from 73 to 75 tell an interesting story.
hard to know if figures around are MY figures or calendar year, but the general indications tell enough.
all three models go into serious decline. kg stops in 74 MY.
for 75 there is only 7925 914s (def cal year number) and 5,327 vw cabs.
914 numbers half of 74 and cab numbers similar halving.

a smart company would have rationalised the lines and space in the factory.

need more historic info on what karmann did in terms of their factory after mid 74,
but probably either shifted cabs over to section where they made 914s or vise versa and started setting up new production line for the water cooled vw scirroco?

whatever is going on that @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=25305 has picked up on is after summer break of 74 and the end of kg production.

info i came across said 500,000 scirocco mk 1 s made from 74 to 81.
= av 70,000 per year.
seriously more production volume than any previous karmann vw model.
about 3 to 4 times best 914 numbers or cab numbers.
think best vw cab numbers were 18,000. less than best 914 numbers.
would have needed a good amount of factory space and probably two shifts a day maybe to pump out the sciroccos? big changes at factory.

definitely the reason for ending 914 production at end of 75 calendar year was expanding the production line to gear up for scirocco production for USA market which came after introduction in europe for 75 MY, 74 calendar year.

folks talk of 924 as successor to 914. only if you take a USA/porsche perspective.
in europe makes more sense to see the scirocco as the 914 successor?

sciroccos early on used same seven digit PKN number (referred to here as karmann body number) system as beetles 914s etc. with a particular 5th digit assigned to them?

Posted by: L-Jet914 Mar 22 2022, 10:34 PM

I will supply the information for my 74 1.8L. I will get the last photo you request tomorrow. I need to unbury the car lol.

Posted by: davep Mar 23 2022, 07:03 PM

Perhaps there are Karmann aficionados with much greater knowledge about the production lines than what we do. I have no idea where to find such people, and my online time these days is very limited. Most of that time is dedicated to providing Kardex and my CoA equivalents. Dave

Posted by: wonkipop Mar 23 2022, 07:31 PM

think its an on the ground job in germany dave.

i don't have any plans on going there any time soon ------ if ever.

i know some folks in the karmann club here that have been into them for decades.
but they probably don't have much either.
i might ask next time i see them.
sometimes someone has some stuff you have never seen before.

Posted by: wonkipop Mar 25 2022, 07:47 AM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=1244

i have worked out a bit more of the pattern.

fairly sure this is how it goes from examples of karmann ghias i could find relatively easily on BAT.

74 Karmann Ghia Cabriolets used 0 as the 5th numeral in the PKN number.



74 Karmann Ghia coupes used 1 as the 5th numeral.





KG production ceased at the end of june 1974.

1975 914s took over the KG PKN numbers using 0 and 1 as 5th numeral.
(except for those small number of exceptions that MCShack found - still unexplained - but maybe are errors?).

------

this car is currently for sale in australia.
pure luck coming across it - just hit the market.
1976 VW Scirocco. built dec75-jan76.
pkn # would say dec 18 1975.
just as the last 914s went out the door.

the PKN number is just legible in the images.
its 504-9590. the last two numbers are hard to read and not 100% but the 5th is clear as a 5.

looks like the scirocco did take over at least one of the earlier 914 numbers.
#5






in summary from 75 on.

914 = 0 and 1.
VW beetles use 2 (and potentially 3).
sciroccos use 5 (and potentially 4 and/or 6).
(EDIT INSERT. forgot i found a 79 scirocco a few weeks back with the 6 in as 5th number. safe to say that both the earlier 914 numbers of 5 and 6 went across to the sciroccos).

those three are the only vw models being made by karmann in model year 75/76.
no other cars being assembled/manufactured by karmann for other makes (eg BMW) use the PKN #. its a VW assigned number and is across all VW manufacturing sites and is not a unique Karmann convention.

Posted by: wonkipop Mar 25 2022, 04:51 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=1244 and @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=104 .

i saw in that sale ad for scirocco owner had a certificate from the VW museum.

wondering if this is an alternative source for certificates of authenticity for 914/4s - given that you can only get it via an expensive technical certificate program from porsche these days.

Posted by: davep Mar 26 2022, 07:38 AM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=24231
I have my own sources for data and make up my own pseudo-CoA type of Report with more items and greater detail than the CoA. Also Kardex for the 1969 and earlier cars. Helping clients with these items keeps me occupied when I am not hanging out here. If anyone is interested in this service, then email me for my order info package PDF.

Posted by: Shivers May 7 2022, 12:46 PM

Posted by: Shivers May 7 2022, 12:47 PM

Posted by: davep May 8 2022, 10:07 PM

Thanks for that data point. Did your compliance decal survive?

Posted by: Shivers May 8 2022, 11:17 PM

Is that this one

Posted by: Cairo94507 May 9 2022, 09:48 AM

That's the one.

Posted by: cholland_ May 15 2022, 07:24 PM

Here's the body tag from my '75 Scirocco (#11186) - made at the Karmann factory while 914 production was still ongoing, at least for another year.

Posted by: wonkipop May 16 2022, 06:00 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=7029

thats pretty interesting - the sirocco plate with 2 as fifth number.

thats week 41 of 1974 which is about 3-4 weeks after those 914s with the 2 and 3 in the PKN plate that @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=25305 and @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=1244 have picked up on.

it must be a very early production sirocco you have?

Posted by: cholland_ May 27 2022, 06:24 AM

Yep, it's 11,186 of 58,942 for 1975. Currently a somewhat mechanically butchered survivor, but will get a full rebuild one day - sometime in the next 10 or 20 years going by my usual timelines.

Posted by: wonkipop May 28 2022, 01:56 AM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=7029
- hang on to that car mate.

apart from a handful of factory assessment cars of which probably about 1 survives - none of those down here in upside down world. they are very pretty cars.

Posted by: L-Jet914 May 29 2022, 11:03 PM

Alrighty finally got around to taking photos of the information you're looking for. My 74 1.8 build month 4/74 (4/10/74 to be exact per a post on how to decode the body tag). Build plate on riveted to right headlight bucket, vin stamping on right fender, chassis number stamped on right rear corner of trunk floor pan.


Attached thumbnail(s)


Attached image(s)

Posted by: wonkipop Jan 5 2024, 03:49 PM

stumbled on a VW historical film on you tube.
got some stills.
also got the confirmation date on when scirrocos started production at osnabruck - production commences feb 04 1974.
(this is from VWs own website - where you can download annual reports going back over the years).

film stills show scirroco coming down karmann production line with a 914 and a ghia cabriolet. ghias cease production with end of 74 model year at june 74. so the film had to have been shot between feb 04 74 and june/july 74 during that 5 -6 month period.
these would have been the very first scirrocos sold as 74 model years (mainly in german domestic market at that point).

so for the first 6 months of calendar year 1974 things must have been pretty cramped at karmann factory. 914s, karmann ghias, beetle cabriolets and the new scirrocos were all coming down the line together! they would have been making space for the scirroco line and the 914s must have gone across to be built alongside not only beetle cabs but also the last of the ghias.

the date the 914s get the VW production number rivetted in the front trunk is likely the moment when the line was shifted across and scirrocos took over the old 914 production aisles in the factory.







of interest in relation to 914 production for 74 MY.
approx 7,500 2.0 cars are produced in a batch from aug to late oct 1973.
only 2.0s were produced during that period.
from there approx 6,500 1.8 L-Jet cars are produced in a batch from late oct 1973 to early Feb 1974. only 1.8s were produced during that period.
from early Feb 1974 to the end of June/beginning of July 1974 a further run of 7000 74 MY cars were produced. these were a mix of 1.8s and 2.0s including the limited editions.
2/3 of 914 1974 MY production was accomplished in the first 6 months of 74 production.
the remaining 1/3 of total were produced in the second six months.
they were definitely making space for scirroco production and stockpiling the 914s before the scirroco line started up.