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Posted by: RobW Mar 21 2011, 07:35 AM

I have an oppt to buy a really nice street Porsche and am wondering what my race car would go for these days.

Its the former Grantsfo pirate ship... been sitting here unused for the last 2 years... and I've used it twice... Yeah, I know.

Here's a short list of things:
'74 low mile chassis
FG trunks, bumpers, and flares
5-6 year old 2.5 purpose built /6 motor, carb, twin plug
LSD transmission
5 lug / full suspension
Cage
Kirkley seat
2 sets of wheels

Known issues:
LSD slips
Engine smokes after sitting long periods
Carbs likely need cleaning

Package would include nice Carson steel open deck trailer.

What's it worth?



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Posted by: DanT Mar 21 2011, 10:04 AM

Rob,
I know first hand that this is a well prepared car and needs only just a little attention to a couple of items to be a contender at AX and TT.

The market for racecars (seems even more so for 914s) is very soft right now.
There have been several very nice cars here that have gone wanting for several months or more. Like Elliott's car.
I won't put a price on it, since I know it might influence other's responses...

good luck with the sale.

Posted by: Randal Mar 22 2011, 04:59 PM

Hey Rob:

The market for race cars is somewhat soft, unless you happen to be selling something that meets the market's sweet spot.

If I had to do it all again I'd just do it on eBay and put a retainer figure that meets your minimum objective. eBay gets the word out - gives you EXPOSURE.

Also putting a longer buying period on it will attract more people.

I would also figure out how to link the sale to face book, another medium that will get you huge exposure.

And with your natural talent you should do a video on YouTube. Like the metamorphosis of a young married guy that has to give up his first beauty (race car) to retain his most important asset, i.e. Cheryl. It will probably go viral.

Be realistic, but put a price that will make you ok with the deal.

Otherwise, just keep it and run it.

Posted by: J P Stein Mar 22 2011, 05:33 PM

What I did when pricing mine.
I started at one end of the car with a pad & pencil and figured (as honestly as possible) what I could get by parting it out. I mentally prepared my self to do so if I could not near that number as a complete car. It was quite a revelation.
I was over 22K still hadn't included the chassis, spares, tools, truck, trailer, yada.
It was not something I was looking forward to but I was offered 20K & took it.

My car was in perfect running condition (and it wasn't built by Grant ). Yours is not and it is tough to figure what yours needs & how much that is gonna cost.
Parting it out is a viable option. Brit sold off most of the running gear (less the trans) & all the conversion parts...and the stuff went quick. The funds weren't quite what it took to do the change over to Subie power.....but the went a little Ga Ga on that.

Posted by: RobW Mar 24 2011, 06:25 AM

Thanks guys! I appreciate the good advice!

Posted by: ChrisNPDrider Mar 24 2011, 05:31 PM

The reality check of selling your custom 914 is why so may of us keep them for so long

Posted by: brilliantrot Mar 24 2011, 11:25 PM

Truer words were never spoken.

Posted by: RobW Mar 25 2011, 06:54 AM

And the reality check of parting it out?

Posted by: J P Stein Mar 25 2011, 08:06 AM

The reality check comes when you name your price and the lowballers come out from under their rocks, BTDT. The race car market is SOFT.

Quit screwing around & put it on evilbay. I doubt anyone here will name a price for you, but evilbay will. Use your purchase price as a reserve & see what happens.

Posted by: sean_v8_914 Mar 29 2011, 08:11 AM

$13k

Posted by: grantsfo Mar 30 2011, 05:14 PM

Sold my ...err your old Boxster race for $13K but I get added benefit of being able to drive the car still. Man I should have figured that one out a long time ago! I did get quite a bit for other parts that came with the car or that I removed.

Market is soft but you never know. I'd say put it out there for $15K and see what happens.

This is always a fun one to show people if they want to know if a little 2.5 is very fast.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aSaL5XpVTt8

or for theme

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8xE1XNpoGE

Its probably one of the few unreinforced 914-6 race cars still out there however. It does have a clean chassis.

Posted by: grantsfo Mar 30 2011, 06:04 PM

JP you're really a class act! Robs car was built by both JD Racing and Rich Bontempi. Rob has also done work on the car since buying it from me. Very well respected names in the business. If you want to trash their reputations on line you go for it my friend. Or is your intent is to hurt Rob and his family financially by bashing his car? Ask numerous drivers of the car about how terrible it was. LOL!

...And your car was far from perfect and had plenty of issues. You forget Brit talks with Brad and I spent time with him in San Diego looking at all the repairs that hadnt been done. Remember all of his excuses at San Diego??? LOL! Guess its easy to forget all the issues when you are getting senile.

Posted by: RobW Mar 31 2011, 12:00 AM

Decided to keep it and run it this year...

FWIW - Grant built a great car... which he drove to the limit. I've yet to get close to what he could do with this thing.. I'm going to try and configure it for AX comp and run it... just need tires, springs, and ?

All the best!

Posted by: J P Stein Mar 31 2011, 09:26 AM

duh

Posted by: PeeGreen 914 Mar 31 2011, 11:03 AM

You both do your fare share of running your mouth and bashing on each other. However, I find it in very poor taste to do it in a thread where someone was simply trying to get a price on his race car. You old farts who no longer own 914s should take your BS elsewhere if you can't play nice.

Posted by: J P Stein Mar 31 2011, 11:48 AM

You're right, Jon, I apologize.

Posted by: RobW Mar 31 2011, 02:24 PM

OK, so what size springs should I run for AXing? Grant told me but I forgot... also, what type of tires. I need heat faster than slicks if possible...

Posted by: PeeGreen 914 Mar 31 2011, 02:55 PM

It really depends on how the rest of your system is set up. I had 275lb springs on mine and it felt great when paired with everything else I have. I think JP had 275 or 300s on his.

How wide can you go on tires? One race engeneer told me that the Hoosier A6s are about a second to two seconds slower than fresh cantilevers. That seems ridiculous to me but I am in no position to quesiton this guy. I have run RA1s, V710s and A6s and the grip was better with each tire. So if you can fit the cantilevers they will have the best stick.

Posted by: jjackson Mar 31 2011, 06:27 PM

Car looks great!Poor market to sell unless you need the cash or the other car that you mentioned.Good buyers market.The tires you mentioned above are all radials except for the cantilever GY.They all (the radials) require more camber -2 Plus bordering on 3.The cantilevers like closer to one degree.In our testing, our cars like the bias ply tires with less negative camber.Our car is 1900lb and we are lighter sprung than the above mentioned figures.The ability to Match a car to your paticular driving style-and fine tune as courses require-seems more important .I've read a lot of conflicting setups on this forum-Everybody justifies their paticular setup and expense.There is no replacement for seat time.J Jackson

Posted by: Randal Mar 31 2011, 07:22 PM

Real simple reason for using cantilevered tires. You can get take off (used once for qualifying) at half price.

I'd ask around Rob and find a couple sets of springs and just try them. Take pictures of the car in different corners and you'll figure it out.

I might have some for you to borrow. I'll check.

Posted by: jjackson Mar 31 2011, 08:03 PM

BTW-You need to address the lack of chassis stiffening.We thought that a cage was sufficient and its not.We run several of Chris Foleys pieces (Great Stuff) and also 10 piece kit-Never have run or driven a car with Engman kit-front sway bar has to be addressed also.We have spiderwebbed the front on autox rubber in the early 90s (with small wheels and tires)and hopped rear ends to help rotate cars for years.Don't damage and then repair a good car.Time and money well spent.I know that you didn't ask for most of this-just trying to help-maybe contagious????JJackson

Posted by: Randal Mar 31 2011, 10:59 PM

I'll second your posting.

With all the transitions with 222 the biggest single improvement was installing a cage. It made a huge difference in handling.

Looking forward to trying the complete cage, i.e., front torsion bar to rear shock tower cage (now installed).

Posted by: sww914 Mar 31 2011, 11:51 PM

Rob, 1 point of data here, I got about $7000 for my car, you saw it and you thought it was worth a lot more. It had a couple of problems, it failed a leakdown test so they paid for the parts and I did the labor to fix it. They asked me to fix another smallish problem or two, I fixed them to make the sale. They wanted a couple of extra things done and they paid me for those so it ended up going from $5000 to $7000. I had about $12,000 in it and I never bought anything besides oil for retail prices and about 100 hours of work for every 1 hour of track time.
It took me months to sell it. 4 years ago it would have sold fast for $7500.
It was hard all the way around, but I hope they're enjoying the car at least 1/2 as much as I did.
Now, as you well know, I am the utmost king of lazy, I train lazy asses to improve their skills. I'm the president of the local lazy ass club.
I think you should get off your lazy ass and go to the track!

Posted by: sean_v8_914 Apr 1 2011, 11:40 AM

suspension stiffness is directly related to driver skill. stiffer springs load/store greater energy and release it quicker than a softer set up. this requires teh driver to be farther ahead of teh car. learn on soft and go progresively stiffer. stiffen teh car in a balanced manner f/r. canti slicks like near 0 deg and favor an AGRESIVE driving style. DOT-R like lots of neg camber. neg camber is a waste of money, tires and time for all but the most agressive driver

in closing, set up should match the drivers' skill and style

Posted by: jjackson Apr 1 2011, 07:32 PM

Wow,suspension stiffness directly related to skill-I wrote a lot of inappropriate responses to this.Good luck with your setup.JJackson (lack of skill SCCA FP competitor)

Posted by: Randal Apr 1 2011, 09:58 PM

I'm still with you JJ. If the transition is too soft then the car is going to be rolling at the same time it is turning and that can create a bunch of moving weight when you don't need it.

Ask me how I know. Want to see pictures?

Posted by: J P Stein Apr 1 2011, 10:46 PM

Suspension is a mass of compromises. Some are forced on a builder, some are
for driver confidence, some are "cause that's all we got".

Posted by: Randal Apr 2 2011, 09:51 AM

You reminded me about something basic JP.

If you are running a sway bar in the back Rob, that will make a difference in the springing you use.

Posted by: J P Stein Apr 2 2011, 11:55 AM

Yeah, me too. I deleted most of it in my quest to be less ornery. Can't tell folks what I really think.

I ran the 275 lb springs to keep both rear tires loaded while cornering.....at the time I had no LSD....never has been changed. Suspension compliance is necessary on our rough local venues. It works well enough on the rare occasions when we had a smooth venue. If we'd had a smooth venue to run on most of the time I'd have gone stiffer & lower.

I've driven a stiffly sprung 914 (race set up for the track at PIR.....Indy car smooth) on the infield pits there. It was nearly undrivable.

BTW, Talked to Brit this morning. He got the britbox corner balanced yesterday.
The Subi conversion *added* about 115 lbs to the car.....who'da thunk it. No ballast for XP.
He's down in Eugene trying for some test time.....it's raining.

Posted by: jjackson Apr 2 2011, 01:27 PM

We ran 250s and 300s in rear for years with our Koni shocks.Had Fordahl build us a set of JRZs that were valved to his specs.When we went to 200s , we gained alot more usable adjustment in shocks.The car was a whole lot more tunable with this combo.Have not run a rear swaybar since we left stock class competition .Sorry to hear that its raining on Brit.What a bummer!Maybe one day we'll attain the skill level required to run some thousands.JJackson

Posted by: brant Apr 2 2011, 11:55 PM

you know a funny thing about the spring rate debate...
the fastest 914 driver I know likes to run 225's or less on the rear, with 21 front torsion bars....

I guess he must be a crappy driver
funny how he passes all of the other cars in wheel to wheel driving...

even when he is in a 4 cylinder he will pass all of the other cars...
in fact his full race 4 cylinder doesn't even have the cage tied into the suspension points.... yet he is 4 seconds faster in a 200hp 4cylinder than 500 corvette's in wheel to wheel...

hmmm....
a true driver with true talent can outdrive lots of "details" on a car

stiff isn't always the best option
it can be used to overcome some things
but it isn't always the fastest way around a track

Posted by: jjackson Apr 3 2011, 08:12 AM

Clock don't lie .The last springs we bought were 175's for the rear.Have not tested them yet.JJackson

Posted by: Randal Apr 3 2011, 08:19 AM

No question a great driver can outdrive issues on a car.

And it's true that stiff isn't always good.... Man it's hard to say that!

Anyway, depending upon ones driving style I'd say that autoxing will expose a poor set up very quickly. It's just the nature of the beast as one is typically more aggressive when autoxing.

Man, this could turn into a can of worms..

Posted by: brant Apr 3 2011, 08:33 AM

I also don't have experience with auto x

but I know the 914 driver I mentioned above is running slicks (about 10inches wide) with lots and lots of leverage on those 225 springs.... So if you factor in the extra track and leverage... its comparable to less than 225 on a standard track teener. (plus cage not tied to suspension points... hmmm)

his belief is that weight is more important than an extra couple of hundred pounds of bracing when it comes to lap times

heck if you have ever raced wheel to wheel with an old lotus elan (also class CP, at least back in the day)
its funny how a fiberglass flexi flier without high spring rates (but with light weight) is 10 seconds a lap faster than a 914/6
and with only 1600cc of motor no less.

brant

Posted by: Randal Apr 3 2011, 09:18 AM

My S4 Elan wasn't stiff or soft. It was designed right from the factory and handled like a dream. With stock street tires (Dunlop) it would handle unlike anything I had driven before or after. Design IMHO was the big plus factor.

Sure wish I had shipped it back to the US.

BTW my 914 also runs 225's and 9 inch+ slicks. Moving to the 225's fixed the excessive body lean that I referred to previously.

Posted by: J P Stein Apr 3 2011, 10:11 AM

There are enough internet opinions out there to choke a horse...or your car.

Those that count are the ones that have demonstrated their opinions by success in your chosen *competition*.

I will say that a I prefer stiff chassis to a flexi-flyer in my former discipline.
It will make the whole car set-up react in the same manner every time and doesn't require heroic driving when properly set up (and it won't break in half). A guy can concentrate on going as fast as he is able on a given day.

From a builders stand point, it allows modifications with the knowledge that the car will respond, either positive or negative, to the modification.

Posted by: jjackson Apr 3 2011, 01:38 PM

I"m glad that racing season has started and maybe we can get some conversation started in this forum again.Our cars are old school technology and still competing at a high level.I hope that everybody is kicking their competitions ass in whatever venue or setup they are competing in or with.I remember the day that a 914 brought fear to the competition as soon as it pulled in the gate.Now we get more of-What is that? Lets keep them running and hopefully at the end of the day-They know what kind of car it was and they know it sure was fast.JJackson

Posted by: J P Stein Apr 3 2011, 01:43 PM

IF it ever quits raining.

Posted by: BKLA Apr 4 2011, 03:27 PM

Rob -

Did you ever figure out what your car was worth?

Mine has sat a bit over a year now (lack of funds) but I've taken the time to do some small improvements that I could do myself without too much money. With that said, it is more valuable to my sanity than what I could sell it for, in this economy.

Having it in the garage where I can go and close out the world, ponder its needs along with my wants and desires, not think about medical issues or current world issues or even the economy, makes it far more valuable to me than any amount of money. Ill sell lot o' other stuff before the teener!