Printable Version of Topic

Posted by: Randal May 22 2011, 09:38 AM

Down at AAS yesterday.

All the modified cars had huge spoilers. I thought 8" was the limit, but it looked more like a foot.

Got to figure out what is legal and get one of those puppies on 222.

Posted by: J P Stein May 22 2011, 09:57 AM

10 iches high is max. RTFB for more details.....there ARE details.

Posted by: jjackson May 22 2011, 02:55 PM

Randal-How did you do -underspoilered and all........ JJackson

Posted by: jjackson May 22 2011, 04:04 PM

Wow-you get 10" from highest point of rear deck and sides-pay close attention to the sides!JJackson

Posted by: Randal May 22 2011, 05:00 PM

Right and I have to check whether or not there is a restriction on the number square feet or angle of the spoiler. Man you could put a lot of surface area back there as long as you don't exceed the 10" rule, right?

Here is the rule:

2. It is a non-production rear spoiler which is mounted to the rear portion
of the rear hatch, deck, or trunk lid. The spoiler may extend no
more than 10 inches from the original bodywork in any direction.
Alternatively in a hatchback, the spoiler may be mounted to the
rear hatch lid at or near the top of the hatch in such a confi guration
the spoiler may extend not more than 7.5 inches form the original
bodywork in any direction. The spoiler may be no wider that the
bodywork. The use of endplates is prohibited. Spoiler endplates
are defi ned as any vertical (or semi-vertical) surfaces attached in
front of the spoiler which have the result of capturing and redistributing
air (downforce) along all or any portion of the spoiler. The
angle of attack is free. The spoiler may not function as a wing.

Posted by: jjackson May 22 2011, 07:25 PM

Randal-How did you do -underspoilered and all........ JJackson
[/quote]
Wow-you get 10" from highest point of rear deck and sides-pay close attention to the sides!JJackson
[/quote]


Right and I have to check whether or not there is a restriction on the number square feet or angle of the spoiler. Man you could put a lot of surface area back there as long as you don't exceed the 10" rule, right?

Here is the rule:

2. It is a non-production rear spoiler which is mounted to the rear portion
of the rear hatch, deck, or trunk lid. The spoiler may extend no
more than 10 inches from the original bodywork in any direction.
Alternatively in a hatchback, the spoiler may be mounted to the
rear hatch lid at or near the top of the hatch in such a confi guration
the spoiler may extend not more than 7.5 inches form the original
bodywork in any direction. The spoiler may be no wider that the
bodywork. The use of endplates is prohibited. Spoiler endplates
are defi ned as any vertical (or semi-vertical) surfaces attached in
front of the spoiler which have the result of capturing and redistributing
air (downforce) along all or any portion of the spoiler. The
angle of attack is free. The spoiler may not function as a wing.
[/quote]
Randal-EMOD current rulebook (Did not check fastrack)Read again-Endplates allowed-100SQ Inch each on 10" spoiler.JJackson

Posted by: PeeGreen 914 May 22 2011, 07:47 PM

Love to see pictures of yours Jay

Posted by: J P Stein May 22 2011, 07:47 PM

Details, details....this ain't Prepared class.
From section 18.1

Rear spoilers
a. If a rear spoiler is used, it shall be mounted to the rear hatch,
deck, or trunk lid, and mount no further forward than the base
of the rear window. *The spoiler extension for the entire spoiler
is set by one measurement at the lateral midpoint of the car.
At that point, the spoiler may not extend more than 10” from
the attachment point out to the outer or free edge. This sets
the maximum height above ground at all other locations on the
spoiler. The result may be a flat topped rather than contoured
spoiler.* Alternatively, the spoiler may be mounted at the rear
of the roof, or to the rear hatch lid at or near the top of the
hatch; in such a configuration the spoiler may extend no more
than 7.5” from the original bodywork, measured as described
above. The spoiler angle of attack is free. The rear spoiler is
measured from leading, attached edge to trailing or outermost,
free edge. Its measurement is independent of its angle of attack.
b. *The spoiler may not be wider than the rear bodywork, measured
as the maximum distance between the outside edges of
the wheel well openings or fender flares at axle height.*


Read it carefully then picture in your mind that E Mod Sprite's spoiler.
The *s are mine.

7. The use of front and rear spoiler endplates is allowed. Endplate
area shall not exceed spoiler height squared. A roof spoiler up to
the maximum of 7.5” is allowed an area of up to 16 square inches
for each endplate; a trunk spoiler up to the maximum of 10” is
allowed up to 100 square inches for each endplate. Side plates
do not have to be square or rectangular; the side profile shape is
open. If end plates are to be used with the front spoiler/air dam/
splitter assembly, a maximum area of 36 square inches per end
plate is allowed.

Posted by: jjackson May 22 2011, 08:03 PM

Mine is boring-not allowed end plates in FP-Will post pix soon.JP is posting current correct listings for EMOD-BTW Randal get that front splitter out there-You're allowed 6 inches out and end plates.We increased our bumper profile for more splitter.100 sq inch end plates on rear-thats substantial and necessary-I did not go back and read the size endplates for front.JJackson

Posted by: jjackson May 22 2011, 08:06 PM

Damn-there it is.JJackson

Posted by: Randal May 22 2011, 08:13 PM

Pretty interesting rear spoiler. Man that puppy is huge.

I don't see any endplates in front.

Posted by: Randal May 22 2011, 08:17 PM

He must have read the rule that JP just posted. Check out, what I think, is the new rear endplates:




Looks like he is following the 100 square inch option on those end plates.

Posted by: J P Stein May 22 2011, 08:31 PM

Dude, he wrote the rules.

Posted by: Randal May 22 2011, 08:57 PM

One that that I could do before Medford is just mount a big plastic spoiler to my existing reinforced spoiler with the mounting system in place.

End plates could be epoxied. Ummmm.

Probably the angle of attack would be to high.

Posted by: J P Stein May 23 2011, 03:15 AM

I read some where/some time that a 65 degree AOA was the cat's ass for a spoiler.

Posted by: jjackson May 23 2011, 07:45 AM

Read the same thing-Looked , but could not find article-We run ours at 66.Have spliiter test article though. Racecar engineering December 2009-Vol 19 No 12 has test info on splitters.JJackson

Posted by: PeeGreen 914 May 23 2011, 11:13 AM

What did you find in that article?

Posted by: Randal May 23 2011, 04:00 PM

This is pretty interesting.

http://www.racingbeat.com/mazda/performance/features/rotary-racer-jeff-kiesel.html

Posted by: jjackson May 23 2011, 07:48 PM

If you chase that car-you will get fast.Good Luck-Currently the most impressive autox car with fenders-JJackson

Posted by: jjackson May 23 2011, 08:04 PM

That article tested downforce on an old mini cooper hill climb car.Using various size splitters and at different wind tunnel speeds (not alot of data-they did not test as much as I wish)The tests conclusively added downforce in even the smallest splitters (30 MM test) and showed 80 lbs of downforce on and 80mm splitter at 80 miles per hour.There tests showed that if your rules allowed-you have to run as much splitter as the rules allowed-that you could still balance cars handling
All that being said,hypothetically of course-if you had an autox car that weighed 435 lbs per front corner-and at maybe 70 (typical national level speeds in FP) the car weighed 70 ish lbs in front-so now front end has an increase of 35 lbs-so your 470 in front??maybe????
splitter weighs 5
76 bumper,mounts,frame-13
Noticed that you want car planted at 30MPH but for really fast times-it neeeeds to be planted at 70.All hypothetical of course.JJackson

Posted by: jjackson May 23 2011, 08:52 PM

[quote name='jjackson' date='May 23 2011, 09:04 PM' post='1482613']
[quote name='PeeGreen 914' post='1482314' date='May 23 2011, 12:13 PM']
What did you find in that article?

Noticed that you want car planted at 30MPH but for really fast times-it neeeeds to be planted at 70.All hypothetical of course.JJackson
[/quote]


Nows a good time to mention that spoilers usually fit on a trailer easily-splitters require more thought.JJackson

Posted by: PeeGreen 914 May 23 2011, 09:20 PM

I know some use big ol airdams with splitters but why not just use an LE style with a splitter? Is it better if it is lower? I know the idea is to keep air out from the underside but wouldn't the benefit of the splitter be more beneficial? That way it would still be able to handle more roads, driveways, trailers...

Posted by: campbellcj May 23 2011, 11:04 PM

FWIW I made my front spoiler/dam removable for trailering, which is easy to do. I have 3 different ones. The smallest is an LE-type and the largest is a Sheridan.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/cjcam/4559321047/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/cjcam/4559321047/ by http://www.flickr.com/people/cjcam/, on Flickr

Posted by: jjackson May 24 2011, 05:11 AM

Good looking front spoilers.We extended ramps on trailer out to 12' and still had to use cheater board on end.
Always tired at end of event-just want to pull on trailer.
Our new splitter (looks high) is 3 inches off ground 28 inches in front of tire.
Our latest was piece from AIR(have to look for it) large squared off piece-we cut the lip off of it.Very well made -heavier piece than I've experienced with other air dams.
Will take pix soon.JJackson

Posted by: jjackson May 24 2011, 05:20 AM

Air pushes down on splitter front and also creates negative air space under at backside-the further back you go the better.Test in mag did not adjust heights (from ground) of splitters.
We went as low as we could-still being able to load-ramp extensions cost me 350.
More than we had in the whole splitter,air dam, and hardware.Could have done it with boards but sometimes already look like the Clampetts. JJackson

Posted by: Randal May 24 2011, 08:17 AM

I have broken my splitter more times than I'd care to mention when loading the car back on to the trailer at the end of events. Crunch....

Only thing that will solve it is a brain transplant.

Posted by: PeeGreen 914 May 24 2011, 11:19 AM

I was thinking of taking a sheet of steel, taking it back to the belly pan, and attaching the struts of the splitter to the body of the car while the car rather than the airdam.

Thoughts?

Posted by: jjackson May 24 2011, 12:04 PM

I was thinking of taking a sheet of steel, taking it back to the belly pan, and attaching the struts of the splitter to the body of the car while the car rather than the airdam.

Thoughts?
[/quote]
Ran bolts through original mount points of air dam-ran nut down secure-second nut at back to turnbuckles.Also attached using L brackets at back side of air dam.Was going to run bolt and spacer through splitter to bottom of front trunk-Have not done last one-so far it has withstood some good impacts with no problem.This air dam that I mentioned earlier is heavier made than any I've seen.Broken every air dam I've ever run until this one.Since I just typed that, I think I will add the additional supports.We are currently running "alucobond" panel for splitter-aluminum with resin sandwich-about 1 lb per sq foot-Car really liked that weight there.I'll try to get pix this pm.JJackson

Posted by: jjackson May 24 2011, 12:12 PM

I wrecked once pulling into enclosed trailer-Very violent and confined.Kept me from playing golf for 6 weeks.Hammer fixed wheel-pride took a while-therapist says I can talk about it now.JJackson

Posted by: grantsfo May 24 2011, 03:30 PM

Be sure to consider venues you plan to run with front spliter design. It was tragic at San Diego to see beautiful cars with spliters cracked, you could hear them scraping all over the place there.

I like the invisble spoiler on the Austin Healy.

Posted by: campbellcj May 24 2011, 07:39 PM

Good point. Bumpy/irregular venues are the exact reason I keep all 3 of those spoilers above. I don't use the deepest one if there are cones or large bumps/dips on the course. The LE one was for street use originally but my car isn't really streetable anymore...

Posted by: jjackson May 25 2011, 05:40 AM

[attachmentid=260
885


Pix of our setup.Took me a while to get resized.JJackson







Attached image(s)

Posted by: jjackson May 25 2011, 05:56 AM

[attachmentid=260
893]
Forgive for pix in trailer.

Missed one.JJackson


Attached image(s)

Posted by: Randal May 25 2011, 08:58 AM

Nice front and rear splitter / spoiler. That rear spoiler is big!

And it's great that you can load the car on the trailer without taking off the front splitter.

I've got to find someone with one of those long contour bars so that I can get the bottom bit right when I do mine.

Given that your using plastic, I guess you could glue on end plates or just bolt them on if you wanted.

End plates keeping the air on the spoiler surface have got to be helpful.

Posted by: PeeGreen 914 May 25 2011, 10:10 AM

Wow Jay, that looks very cool

Hey, so it can look cool AND be functional

Posted by: jjackson May 25 2011, 11:28 AM

Thanks-you should have seen the faces on the guys at the shop when I told them I was looking for late model bumper for the race car.No exhaust pointed up comments?
Been guilty to the sound gods often-Pointed end away from meter to run-Last event was Pro Solo-couldn't figure out which way to point-Up is 4 db quieter.
Thinking about a Real John Deere flapper.
JJackson

Posted by: Britain Smith May 25 2011, 12:03 PM

Can you give me details on the swirl fuel tank you got up there in the front? Do you have a smaller pump in the tank?

-Britain

Posted by: Britain Smith May 25 2011, 12:06 PM

Here is my rear spoiler with endplates:



Here is an old picture of my old front splitter set-up, I don't have a good picture of the new set-up:




_Britain

Posted by: jjackson May 25 2011, 12:48 PM

Its just a vented catch tank-At less than five gallons in a 10 gallon cell-we were still sloshing fuel out of tank and starving for fuel in extreme grip situations.Tried different amounts of foam and changed lean on tank-still had problem.Not using two pumps-just using 944 pump -low-even with sump portion of fuel cell-return line is at drivers side front-vent at passenger front-feed middle back.Wish we were allowed endplates.Yours look great.JJackson
BTW-Catch tank has to be drained daily (qt) and we still are running less than 5 in tank.

Posted by: grantsfo May 25 2011, 01:31 PM

Wow thats nice! What class you running?

Posted by: jjackson May 25 2011, 01:47 PM

Thats the "Decent" FP car.JJackson

Posted by: Randal May 26 2011, 08:55 AM

What motor are you running in the FP car JJ?

Posted by: jjackson May 26 2011, 09:31 AM

First overbore on 2.4L-Twin plugged,fuel injected-small motor 1900 lb car-13 to 1-got a real nice crackle.JJackson

Posted by: PeeGreen 914 May 26 2011, 09:34 AM

That sounds purty My orange car was on track to be made into something similar. Damn real estate market

Oh well, GO GREEN

Posted by: Randal May 26 2011, 10:01 AM

So a twin plugged 6, right?

I mean 4's don't have a "nice crackle" do they?

Posted by: J P Stein May 26 2011, 11:19 AM

They do...at least for a while, if you feed some cracklejuice to em'.

Posted by: grantsfo May 26 2011, 11:51 AM

I wish we had more flexibility with the Boxster motors in FP. They offer the 914 all sorts of options. I cant remeber a 2.5 or a 2.7 ever being offered in a 914 LOL! So you get all the flexibility in the world to build a 2.5? As long as its a 2.5? Thats cool but us Boxster guys have to stick with stock block, bore and stroke configs from the Boxster and Cayman from my understanding. So 914's actually get a nice benefit in FP.

Because if there was a loop hole I would love to destroke a 3.2 Boxster S down to 2.9, lighten up the crank, rods pistons, etc and create a high reving M96 screamer. I guess since they added Cayman to same line we can use newer 2.7 M96 block and maybe get the 3.4 heads from a 987 to make a franken motor. A 2.7 with Cayman heads might be the motor. Unfortunately the 2.5 block is pretty limited - I think I can bolt 2.7 heads on that block which whould give the motor a better cam.

My approach is similar to yours. Try to keep the car as light as possible as I think thats the advantage with current FP crowd. Especially with the AWD turbos. You will never beat them being heavier. Even the BMW and Datsun run a little heavy too.

Posted by: jjackson May 26 2011, 01:42 PM

I do not know who wrote all of the letters to get us this flexibility,
but I'm thankful.Were still limited to early case.I am not aware of any true racecar that is not running as light as it can within rules, but we have questioned the idea for autocross based on our need to generate heat in our tires so quickly.We still are a single driver car in a two driver world.Don't know when-but it looks like the AWD turbos are going to be restricted to 36MM soon.That will get HP #s in line.So far JT's talent has been able to overcome all.JJackson

Posted by: J P Stein May 26 2011, 01:45 PM

All production cars have shortcomings. All production cars do not suit themselves to a given Prepared/Mod class. The Boxster is no exception to that rule, IMO. The motor is shit. That could be overcome with an engine bay transfusion but it couldn't be in FP. It is a decent platform....maybe even very good, but nobody has stepped up with the TM&E to prove it in Prepared or Mod. Strelnieks
Is one of the premier AX drivers in the land. If he can't make a winner out of it......

Putting money into an M96 is worse than putting lipstick on a pig....at least you an eat the bacon from a pig whereas the M96 will eat itself.

Posted by: jjackson May 26 2011, 01:52 PM

Definitely 6-Different sound.Love stout 4's but we broke lots of stuff trying.We always tried to run too much RPM.That hind sight crap.Used to shift the car a whole lot more than our competition-with light components-increased risk of mistakes and lost traction.JJackson

Posted by: jjackson May 26 2011, 01:57 PM

So you two aren't tight.Lipstick on a pig?Wow.JJackson

Posted by: grantsfo May 26 2011, 05:20 PM

JP is a bit of a butt head and still sore my pig in lipstick boxster beat his "nationally" competitive 914.

JP is flat out wrong about the Boxster not being competive in Prepared or Mod classes with M96/97 motors. Just watch this years Nationals. I think he will be surprised at the number of those terrible self eating Porsche water pumper motors in fast cars. Eric is already being challenged in his SSM car by a fast SSM Boxster that just recieved a big 3.8 M97. LOL!

I guess JP has missed the fact a M97 motor can be used in Prepared classes. Granted M96 isnt the easiest motor to work with and it doesnt share the years of development of the older aircooled motors. But we are seeing some much better applications now.

The m96 motor in the FP Boxster right now (bought it for $2K used) has lasted 3 seasons without a hiccup. So much for them being crap. I dont know too many 2480cc aircooled motors that make over 200 HP with over 11 to 1 compression that last three seasons with multiple drivers running at redline every event. And there is clearly a good M97 motor that can be used that will crank out 300 HP in FP trim at 2.9 liters. Thats a competitive weight and allows the car to have some weight over the front end.

Erik has indicated the Boxster as it sits with a stock 2.5 exactly way I sent it to him is competitive for podium level. However Erik is more focused on E Production road racing than making the car a National class FP car. Its going to carry extra radiators and stay with 2.5 so its likely not going to be an all out FP car. And in case you missed it JP my Boxster was and is already a Nationally competive FP car. It has run down the fast podium placing FP cars and drivers in its class 3 times at differnt top level National and Regional events around the US. Get it through your thick skull dude. LOL!

Perhaps when JP builds a car that can compete at a National level in a given class he will gain some credibility being an "expert" but frankly I could care less as I will never see one his cars running against me or one of my cars. As I told JP 7 years ago anyone can cut a top off a 914 throw motor in the car and run near TTOD at a poorly attended local event against street class cars. Thats no fun for me! It takes some real knowledge to build a SCCA prepared class winning car at a national level.

I have nothing against people building fast cars just for fun but when they start spouting trash about the car being nationally competitive like JP has I just have to call BS.

Funniest thing about this is I have never claimed to be an expert. I'm just starting at this building cars for national level SCCA stuff. and I'm not sure how committed I am at this point. I dont have a car currently that I'm targeting for national level build. I am toyin gwith ideal of a 1.7 in FSP if they allow the car in that class. If not I may return to a very serious BSP Boxster build as I know thoses cars just as well as 914's now. You learn a lot about a car when you strip them down to race cars.

Posted by: J P Stein May 26 2011, 07:54 PM

Grant always needs to have the last word so here it is....His thread from another forum without comment:




http://axpaddock.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=667

He has deleted stuff in the past to cover his tracks so be quick.

5-11-11
"So stock motor blew after a several thousand miles with stock 6500 rpm rev limiter with extra cooling, etc. And from my experience shift point is far below redline on stock 2.5 so shifts are more like 6200 rpm. I'm still not convinced m96 is something I ever want to touch again. mine blew first track event, Andrew blew his, several others have blown with relatively low miles and now Lucille. All stock low revving motors. I just don't see stock motors blowing so often as a great thing. I know stock air cooled 6s that have run much longer with regular track work. Think i have to admit i agree with JP that these motors stink. No worries about me running a spec boaster ever. Even m97 appears to have issues from what I see with racing Caymans.

I just say this as I have chased Larry's nealy 200K mile RSA around tracks, see it show up for tons of AX's and it seems to be still running fine. Tired but no broken pistons, slipped sleaves, fried cam bearings, blown RMS seals etc. We just see tons of issues with Boxster motors. Given their fairly mild tune and low RPMs I'm just suprised they fail so often. Well not really when I see the poor design execution in the motors. I was shocked when I saw my motor torn arpart. Lots of short cuts made on this mass produced powerplant.

Only motor Porsche seems to have dialed in is GT3 power plant. I'm waiting for 996 GT3 prices to come down more. Or I may go back to another air cooled P car.

Owner of my Boxster race car is going with LN Engineering block and tons of work to make it more reliable but dang thats expensive! Its a shame as I love the chassis on the Boxster and really understand how to build one now. I just cant stand the motor and lack of resources to go after its inherent weaknesses."

Posted by: jjackson May 26 2011, 08:32 PM

Sooo.... being from Arkansas and everything-it gets my attention when there are any pig quotes addressing lipstick issues-you know...barefoot and all......Randal
how is the spoiler plan coming along.The 100 sq inch endplates make for an interesting question.Also mesuring at 10" high at midpoint of your trunk-squared off and extending to the width of your flares.Simple design if your trunk was fixed.What if you were three pieces-the outers pieces with endplates permanently attached to car-say with some sort of closer flap when all three pieces aligned?
(our non wing closed off flap is grey duct tape)Just thinking about original thread.JJackson
BTW 1/4 inch lexan is really stout for drilling,countersinking,and attaching appendages.



.

.

.

Posted by: J P Stein May 26 2011, 08:37 PM

Jeeze, I didn't mean to get ya'll.....er... aroused or sumthin'.

Posted by: jjackson May 26 2011, 08:54 PM

2 Piece trunk lid-fiberglass -front pinned-rear fixed -closed off and effective? Just thinking.JJackson

Posted by: Randal May 26 2011, 10:16 PM

I have been thinking about getting started on the spoiler this weekend. Been down to TAP plastics in Mountain View and they have some pretty nice equipment to shape anything you want and can glue anything together for which you have the templates.

Oh, I like the duct tape idea for closing off the bottom ends of the spoiler. Was looking at that for sometime yesterday trying to figure out a way to get a shape.

Anyway i don't think I'll be adding anything to the car until after my return from the hill climb and the autoX at Medford.

The car seems to be pretty predictable now, abet the driver being behind, but don't want to inject any high speed aero differences until after the hill climb.

The 1.5 lane road is not forgiving if you go off, as you can see from the video of a 2009 (second day) run when a driver lost it after turn 2 and hit a tree.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cV_WrCjpiB0

I'm going to run the next AAS autoX in early June so will get a chance to play with the car again. Hell, who knows I might have 6 minutes total under my belt before I start that hill climb; what more could you ask for?

How far out West do you guys come to run SCCA events? It's be fun to hook up.

Posted by: Randal May 26 2011, 10:27 PM

Yea, why wait to start the down force. Start it right behind the engine and create some huge down force.

Just lift the back of the trunk lid, like 10 inches minus the thickness of the lid, fill in the gaps and man there is a big airfoil.

Use Gurney flaps for end plates.

I like it.

Sure would look funny, but would probably work.

Posted by: jjackson May 27 2011, 05:49 AM

[quote name='Randal' date='May 26 2011, 11:27 PM' post='1484190']
[quote name='jjackson' post='1484160' date='May 26 2011, 07:54 PM']
2 Piece trunk lid-fiberglass -front pinned-rear fixed -closed off and effective? Just thinking.JJackson
[/quote]

When I mentioned thsi,I was still thinking of spoiler in traditional spot-Just say last six inches of entire trunk being fixed place-large squared off spoiler with sides (past effective trunk lid)hanging and attaching down sides to a point (width of flares) with rather large 99.9 sq inch endplates fixed to the triangular pieces running down towards ground-similar to area on Kiesel's (rule writer) new design.Closing off to bodywork makes this design awkward with rear trunk portion being operable.Just thinking.JJackson

Posted by: Randal May 27 2011, 08:31 AM

[quote name='jjackson' date='May 27 2011, 04:49 AM' post='1484279']
[quote name='Randal' date='May 26 2011, 11:27 PM' post='1484190']
[quote name='jjackson' post='1484160' date='May 26 2011, 07:54 PM']
2 Piece trunk lid-fiberglass -front pinned-rear fixed -closed off and effective? Just thinking.JJackson
[/quote]

When I mentioned thsi,I was still thinking of spoiler in traditional spot-Just say last six inches of entire trunk being fixed place-large squared off spoiler with sides (past effective trunk lid)hanging and attaching down sides to a point (width of flares) with rather large 99.9 sq inch endplates fixed to the triangular pieces running down towards ground-similar to area on Kiesel's (rule writer) new design.Closing off to bodywork makes this design awkward with rear trunk portion being operable.Just thinking.JJackson

[/quote]


Oh yea, the trunk still has to work (lift) or come off (like mine with pins). Fastening the bits going down, toward the flares would get interesting. Easy to make permanent, but that doesn't work.

Maybe that is why Britain did his endplates the way he did.

Posted by: J P Stein May 27 2011, 08:51 AM

It would be difficult to do the Kiessel type end plates but not impossible.
Fab it up as one piece with proper supports & all.....all fasteners/holes drilled.
Mark a line to cut the spoiler into 3 pieces with the separations being in line with the trunk seams, then take it of & cut it. I think it would be worth the effort.


Attached thumbnail(s)

Posted by: jjackson May 27 2011, 09:41 AM

I think it would be worth the effort also-either three piece spoiler or two piece trunk with single piece spoiler.JJackson

Posted by: Randal May 27 2011, 05:58 PM

Wish you would draw me a picture of that two piece trunk with a single piece spoiler.

Posted by: jjackson May 27 2011, 08:41 PM

Wish you would draw me a picture of that two piece trunk with a single piece spoiler.
[/quote]
I'm just thinking out loud , and trying to figure out how you effectively close gap that extends towards ground-out past rear tail light area extending downwards-but outside dimension of endplates out there the width of your flares-but behind your flares.Might not be feasible at all.If the vrear portion of trunk was fixed-say 6 inches worth-front to rear being 6 inches.Entire assembly attached to this and sides of fenders-with no gaps.Front of trunk still operates off hinges or pinned.Front portion of trunk has no attachment to spoiler or end plates.
Realistically the three piece unit would be easier.Trying to figure out how to fashion the whole spoiler after Kiesels.He is the fastest autox car with fenders.That earlier posted picture of the red Healeys intake-just made me start thinking of outside the normal possibilities.My ramblings are most likely steering you in the wrong direction.JJackson

Posted by: Randal May 27 2011, 10:20 PM

[quote name='jjackson' date='May 27 2011, 07:41 PM' post='1484644']
Wish you would draw me a picture of that two piece trunk with a single piece spoiler.
[/quote]
I'm just thinking out loud , and trying to figure out how you effectively close gap that extends towards ground-out past rear tail light area extending downwards-but outside dimension of endplates out there the width of your flares-but behind your flares.Might not be feasible at all.If the vrear portion of trunk was fixed-say 6 inches worth-front to rear being 6 inches.Entire assembly attached to this and sides of fenders-with no gaps.Front of trunk still operates off hinges or pinned.Front portion of trunk has no attachment to spoiler or end plates.
Realistically the three piece unit would be easier.Trying to figure out how to fashion the whole spoiler after Kiesels.He is the fastest autox car with fenders.That earlier posted picture of the red Healeys intake-just made me start thinking of outside the normal possibilities.My ramblings are most likely steering you in the wrong direction.JJackson
[/quote]


No wrong directions..just always moving forward.

Wish you folks could be running Medford with us. It sure looks like fun.

Got to buy a video camera before that event.

I think that guy who build the all aluminum tank car for Leno might show up at the hill climb. He's run there a bunch of times.

His aluminum work is just unbelievable.

http://www.blastolene.com/The_Special/pages/02Randy-Early.htm

Posted by: J P Stein May 28 2011, 08:34 AM

This fella offered to fab some bigger rear flares for Brit's car to get some more meat there.....for a reasomable price.

Posted by: Randal May 28 2011, 09:11 AM

Right, Britain is the one who told me about him. It looks like he is pretty active with the Medford Group and also runs the hillclimb. Was hoping to meet him at the event.

Can you imagine nice alumimum fenders all around? Pretty trick and light.

Posted by: Randal May 28 2011, 09:15 AM

When you say the two piece trunk this comes to mind, filled in of course.

Posted by: J P Stein May 28 2011, 10:05 AM

While the 2 piece trunk is also workable it means cutting a $400+ trunk lid and coming up with some support/tie down for the both sections at its center rear ( can't see leaving them to flop around)....that wouldn't happen in my house. In lieu of this, fitting the end plates and securing them would be a stinker.....but I've successfully done worse and it has to be done in either case.

Having the guy fab some rear flares seems like a slam dunk. The man is an artist.

Posted by: jjackson May 28 2011, 10:20 AM

Slept on it-Reality is were putting out ideas in fabricating a part that has to work efficiently.To compete at a high level in EM SCCA competition-
Power to weight
rolling speed through corners
usable torque and HP
aerodynamic devices to help all of these equations
proper gearing
hell of a drive
All of the things that you attempt to improve on this list will not work.The learning process and the development is the fun-You are chasing fast with a car that has been really develloped alot of different ways by a lot of different people.I used to compete with an FP car that I knew was not superior to past champion cars (ie York car )not to mention the Gullick,Fordahl car.We kept changing,developing,chasing, got a few rule changes- and now were developed to a pretty high level.Some budget tight years, we just changed a sticker.Other years we could do a lot more.
ENJOY your project-take it to a level that others have not seen.personally Im a 914 guy in amodern car world-Fortunately we get rule changes and developments in technology that allow us to go places that previous cars couldn't take advantage of.IE shock technology,splitters, new spoiler specifications.....The earlier succesful cars had to come up with these things on there own-and fabricate .We have a lot more information to draw from.LOL JJackson
PS-Hate to see proven,crazy fast cars, not selling compared to cars that have the long "want list " of impressive parts that do sell.I've driven more broke cars with impressive lists than CORRECT cars.

Posted by: Randal May 28 2011, 11:02 AM

I'm going to try to come to Medford early and stop by Grants Pass and visit his shop.

Also I like the three piece spoiler deal, but having trouble figuring out how to hold the outside pieces on with just a single perch, or whatever you call it, like you built for the back of your original 10" spoiler.

The spoiler idea is really pretty interesting, especially from a budget perspective as you can definitely help the car with out huge cost, i.e., +/- about 300 bucks depending on what you use for uprights or perches.

Unlike a new set of bilstein, revalved to work with the car. (The cars set up right now is pretty good = I'm not looking forward to taking everything apart to figure out sprung and unsprung weight).

Or a new set of light wheels that will take 6lbs off each corner.

Or a new set of Hoosiers.

Oh yea, got to get those alumimun fenders made. That could drop the car's weight (guessing) about 30-40 lbs.

But for right now I'll keep reminding myself of what Bontempi told me a long time ago, seat time is the biggest factor! No question that is where the most improvement can be secured for the next 6 months and it's easy on the budget.

Posted by: J P Stein May 28 2011, 11:11 AM

When one is operating on a limited budget there are many experiments that, while you'd love to try, just aren't in the wallet. So, you do what you can afford but make damn sure the car doesn't break.....trial & error doesn't make it here.....a broken (or semi-broken) car is a looser every time.

Next you need to be able to measure improvement. With the ever changing
courses/venues, comparative times with your fellow competitors are about the only data points available. Not an exact science but over time it's worked for me.

Posted by: jjackson May 28 2011, 07:33 PM

I think that guy who build the all aluminum tank car for Leno might show up at the hill climb. He's run there a bunch of times.

His aluminum work is just unbelievable.

http://www.blastolene.com/The_Special/pages/02Randy-Early.htm
[/quote]
Cool thread.Would definitely like to meet that guy.Learn all you can.You need light and fabrication...Hmmmm.JJackson

Posted by: hot_shoe914 May 29 2011, 10:22 PM

Don't forget the GoPro group buy is still going on.

Posted by: Borderline May 30 2011, 11:02 AM

I think you might be getting carried away with the rear spoiler. The spoiler isn't causing the down force all by itself. What it does is slow the velocity of the air over the rear deck lid. Without the spoiler, the high velocity air over the rear deck causes lift...bad. By placing the spoiler at the rear of the deck, it restricts the air flow and hopefully gives some down force on the deck. At a minimum it should reduce the lift. Making the spoiler a whole lot wider than the horizontal section of the rear deck doesn't seem to make much sense to me. On a 914 there is only a small flat section on either side of the trunk before it curves down the side. I would mount the spoiler to the deck lid and be done with it. The other thing is that Randal has a full roll cage and the 914 targa hoop messing up the air flow over the car. The Sprite has only a a roll bar and driver's head restricting the flow. I don't know which is better: good air flow and a good spoiler or turbulent air flow and a spoiler??????????

Posted by: J P Stein May 30 2011, 08:52 PM

Bill:
That's the nice thing about building a race car, you can do anything you want...within the rules. You can do research on an issue and choose to employ an item or not. The results show up at the track (or in this case AX).
Other's opinions on the net are free and in some cases, wise.....others are worth what they cost.
It appears to me that Randal is making a good run at building a hell of an AXer to compete in a larger arena. Pay attention, you may learn sumthin'.

Posted by: Borderline May 30 2011, 11:20 PM

JP:
I'm always trying to learn, it's just sometimes I'm a little slow...I know just like my driving. It seems to me that if you are copying what someone else is doing, that you will always be one step behind and a little off pace.

Yes Randal's car is going great and has tons of potential. I'm sure he is going to be very quick in it.

Posted by: URY914 May 31 2011, 05:12 AM

Posted by: J P Stein May 31 2011, 07:27 AM

Per SCCA rules, E Mods cannot use wings......XP cars can.....go figure.
As a result when E Mods gather (such as the Lincoln NT here) there iare a fairly narrow range of spoilers attending. All they have in common is they are built to the max of the rules (for the most part).

The Jeep is new.


Attached image(s)

Posted by: J P Stein May 31 2011, 07:29 AM

more


Attached image(s)

Posted by: J P Stein May 31 2011, 07:31 AM

more


Attached image(s)

Posted by: J P Stein May 31 2011, 07:36 AM

more


Attached image(s)

Posted by: J P Stein May 31 2011, 07:37 AM

Results

2011 Lincoln National Tour
May 29-30, 2011

**** UNOFFICIAL RESULTS (INFORMATIONAL ONLY) ****

Class standings for EM [8 Cars] (5/30/2011 3:54:18 PM)

---------------------------------------------------------
T 1 143 Jeff Kiesel 2010 KFR Turbo Sprite G Goodyea
70.519(1) 65.223(1) 65.951(1) 127.506
63.564 63.282 62.283
---------------------------------------------------------
T 2 43 Mark Kiesel 2010 KFR Turbo Sprite G Goodyea
70.983 67.448 66.886 133.017
66.620 66.131 68.631(1) (5.511)
---------------------------------------------------------
T 3 156 Robert G. Tunnel 1956 Jeep YC-J Yellow N/A
76.449 68.108 67.954 133.955
66.001 67.486(1) 67.317(1) (0.938)
---------------------------------------------------------
4 56 Jeff Ellerby 1956 Jeep YC-J YELLOW N/A
70.724 DNF 68.868 134.918
67.426 66.610 66.050 (0.963)
---------------------------------------------------------
5 65 Jeff Christianso 1998 Westfield SEI Blac N/A
72.316 68.988 68.048 135.818
68.929 68.427 67.770 (0.900)
---------------------------------------------------------
6 39 Dave Whitworth 2004 Ford Mustang Cobra Hoosier
76.913 70.939 70.488 140.694
73.463 75.751 70.206 (4.876)
---------------------------------------------------------
7 62 Doug Turner 1990 Mazda Miata Blue Hoosier
77.393 73.059 71.809 143.261
72.859 71.479 71.452 (2.567)
---------------------------------------------------------
8 38 Ron Ver Mulm 1981 Chevrolet Camaro O N/A
DNS DNS DNS No Time
68.533 68.700 69.376

Posted by: grantsfo May 31 2011, 04:13 PM

Yeah Bill what do you know. LOL!

Honestly with the little T4 in that car I dont think extra drag is what Randal wants right now. He needs all the speed he can muster? I'd spend more time cleaning up airflow over the car as Bill suggests. Especially if he is hillclimbing the car. Too much spoiler drag can take tons of top speed off the straights in low HP car like his. You guys are looking at spoilers on 350 to 500 HP cars as models? One might argue they dont need to worry about drag as much as a sub 200 HP car that weighs the same.

Posted by: Randal May 31 2011, 05:02 PM

Paul posted this over in the Sandbox:



This is what I was thinking when I built my adjustable spoiler.

Posted by: grantsfo Jun 1 2011, 11:02 AM

That looks much more reasonable and ability to adjust is key in my mind as you wont want much drag for those uphill runs approaching 100 MPH.

I think the hillclimb classes allow a wing dont they? Those big goofy spoilers are so SCCA Solo2.

Posted by: Randal Jun 3 2011, 11:15 AM

Easy to get another piece of aluminum cut at the metal house in Redwood City, drill holes and bolt it on to my existing mini spoiler. If I make it 10" high then I'll have to add some upstands in back or tie downs in front.

Think I will try this after I return from Medford.

Posted by: Brad @ Auto Atlanta Jun 4 2011, 04:01 PM

My EP car is allowed the same 10" rule as the Mod class, but mine isn't done yet. I think I am going with a clear one as well, though Aluminum is a close second. Lexan is durable and light (though not cheap).

Other than that, I don't have much to add.