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Posted by: Jetsetsurfshop Nov 9 2014, 11:23 AM

Hey Paddock Folks,
Searched around a bit for all info pertaining to transmission cooling. I have two side shifts coming next week and I want to prep them for track abuse. See some info about intermediate plates. Are they necessary to run lines for a pump?
I guess heres a list of questions
trans temp gauge?
sender placement?
fluid?
an line size?
pump?
intermediate plates?
schematics of all pumping?
Pictures help too
Thanks everyone.
Oh, if theres a thread on this already please help too. I missed it.

Posted by: Matt Romanowski Nov 9 2014, 12:58 PM

Yes to the gauge. Drill a hole in the bottom of the case, tap for the NPT sender, and then put it in.

I had pretty good luck with Miller's Nanodrive and I'm using Lubrication Engineers now. It's expensive, but it's worth it.

Also, get your parts (ring and pinion, gear, bearings) REM polished and cryotreated. Trust me.

Use -10 lines. Out the drain, into the top of the case on to the gear stack and onto the pinion. Don't use a Mocal diaphram pump. They suck.

Yes to the intermediate plate. Call California Motorsports and get theirs.

I'll have to see what I have for photos.

Posted by: Jetsetsurfshop Nov 9 2014, 03:49 PM

Does the intermediate plate have anything to do with a plumbing a pump/cooler?

Posted by: stownsen914 Nov 10 2014, 01:32 PM

Not sure this is common anymore, but I use a Jabsco Water Puppy pump to pump my tranny fluid. I believe they were used years ago before some of the ones that are marketed now as tranny fluid pumps became available. I've had it in the car a few years, and no issues so far. If you use that one, you have to get the optional impeller - I think it's made of rubber instead of plastic so the pump can handle debris without jamming.

Pretty much agree with Matt's comments. On mine I pump the oil back into the trans in 4 places. One for each gear cluster (1st/reverse, 2nd/3rd, and 4th/5th) and one for the ring and pinion. I have mine spraying where the gears mesh in the hopes that it will do the most good there.

Posted by: Jetsetsurfshop Nov 11 2014, 05:38 PM

I thought just circulating the fluid through a cooler would be enough.
So how do you spray those clusters? Tap the case?
I found a few pictures on Patrick Motorsports website. Can anyone help explain?



Attached image(s)

Posted by: Matt Romanowski Nov 11 2014, 08:50 PM

What they do with all those spots may be better, but the ring and pinion is what makes the most heat. I would say that is the first spot to drop it back in, then go with on the gear stack like Scott said.

The intermediate plate has nothing to do with the cooler or plumbing. It's good because it's stronger, holds the bearings better, and keeps the transmission from flexing as much.

Posted by: stownsen914 Nov 12 2014, 12:50 PM

My spray bar setup looks a lot like the one in the pic you posted of the Patrick setup. I tapped the case in several places similar to what it looks like they've done. I hit the R&P from a different angle, if memory serves correctly. When choosing the places to tap and put fittings, I considered which direction the gears turn, so that the oil is drawn into the gears where they mesh.

Agree with Matt's comment that the R&P is the most critical one since it's the highest stressed.

There are some gains to be had just by dumping cooled oil back into the case without spraying the gears, but the spraybar is better, and becomes more important with higher output engines.

Scott

Posted by: jd74914 Nov 12 2014, 04:35 PM

Just out of curiosity, did either of you guys (Scott or Matt) use sized lines or orifices to control distribution (to favor the R&P, etc.)?

Posted by: Matt Romanowski Nov 12 2014, 09:18 PM

I didn't. It just dumps in both sports (R+P and gear stack). Mine is not the most sophisticated setup.

Posted by: Jetsetsurfshop Nov 12 2014, 09:49 PM

If your moving fluid around with a pump, do you still need a cooler? Does the pump need to run constantly?

Posted by: jd74914 Nov 13 2014, 02:33 PM

Yes, you will need a cooler and you will want to run the pump continuously.

Just a pump may help a little because you would be better lubricating the gears, but one of the big gains from this setup is reducing fluid temperature. With only a pump you will actually slightly increase fluid temperature due to the pump inefficiency.

Posted by: stownsen914 Nov 19 2014, 09:52 AM

I didn't restrict the lines to favor one oiling location over another. However I did use -3 fittings at each of the spray locations in an attempt to get a little pressure pushing the oil through, in the hopes that the oil will squirt at the gear mesh locations instead of more passively just dumping back into the gearbox. An approach like this may not be needed if you dump the oil back into the case just above the gears, since gravity would do the work for you in that case.

If you look at the picture of the Patrick setup, some of the inlets are in the side of the case, so you'd want to make sure the oil has some pressure behind it to get to the gears instead of just spilling out into the bottom of the tranny case.




You definitely want a cooler. If you go to the trouble of adding a pump and especially a spraybar setup, adding a cooler is trivial. I'd say definitely worth doing. If you're trying to keep things simple, you could add the pump and cooler, and skip the spraybar setup at least initially. If you do the oil inlet and outlet on the trans using the oil fill and drain plugs. You could do a setup like this without disassembling the trans.

Posted by: pcar916 Nov 29 2014, 07:37 AM

There were quite a few topics covered in this old thread.

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=161520

Good luck

Posted by: Jetsetsurfshop Dec 6 2014, 07:26 AM

Just seen this link you posted up. Now I have some reading to do. Thanks.

Posted by: FourBlades Dec 9 2014, 08:34 PM

Shane,

I need to set this up on my IMSA car transmission as well.

I have the pump and cooler but not the transmission.

It also had a screen type oil filter to clean the fluid before hitting the cooler.

Maybe we can team up and save some $ by doing 2 transmission?

What we need is a Dr. Evil clinic in Florida this winter and get his help.

John

Posted by: Joe Sharp Jan 7 2015, 10:59 AM

I'm up for that. I have one to do.

Posted by: stugray Feb 9 2015, 03:05 PM

I have contemplated a pump that is driven with a belt off the axle.
Of course it would only pump when moving, but that is when it needs it...

Has anyone ever seen something like that?
I imagine that just about any belt driven oil pump would work.

Posted by: stownsen914 Feb 10 2015, 04:13 PM

Hmmm, good idea. The only mechanical pumps I've seen are internal to the trans though. I guess a generic external dry sump pump could do the trick though. They tend to be pricy, but you'd only need a single stage pump for a trans. Most engine dry sump pumps are at least two stage. Another option would be a mechanical turbo scavenge oil pump. Or adapt a VW type 1 or type 4 engine oil pump - they're pretty simple and cheap.

Posted by: stugray Feb 11 2015, 12:03 PM

I had the same thoughts.
I considered using a typeIV engine oil pump. I was even under the car holding one up while thinking about it.
I think the probelm is tha those pumps are not guaranteed to not leak a little on the side with the drive shaft input since a leak woudl just leak back into the case.
So I dont trust it.
However there are many cars in the junkyards with external belt driven oil pumps.
I just havent been in a pick-u-part since I thought about this.

Posted by: Matt Romanowski Feb 11 2015, 01:45 PM

This sounds like an answer to the question nobody asked.

Why not just use the proven electric pumps that works?

Posted by: brant Feb 11 2015, 02:42 PM

I had the exact same thought...
there are electric options that are affordable.
they don't create a load/drag
they don't leak

????

K. I. S. S.

Posted by: stugray Feb 11 2015, 10:42 PM

"they don't create a load/drag" - Any electrical load on an alternator = hp.
So the two are probably close to the same total system "drag", but the mech pump likely a little less depending on drive ratio.

Some people run without Alternators so the extra electrical load is not good.

The belt pump would cost $10 at a pick-u-part (compared to $200) and be lighter than the electric.

Many of the electric pumps are not rated for full duty (probably doesnt matter for 20 minute races).

I am quite certain that the OP was asking about ideas for pumps was he not?

Posted by: jd74914 Feb 12 2015, 07:41 AM

The two biggest reasons I can see to have an electric pump are for packaging and constant speed (flow). The former is obvious and the latter just keeps you from needing a bypass valve to control system pressure like is present in many automotive oiling systems. I can't really see a problem with running a belt drive pump though. The only real thing to watch out for is perhaps sizing orifices and a bypass valve so you get the flowrate you want at all components, assuming you are looking for the same spray pattern at all times.

I'm just thinking out loud, but the only other thing I can think of is the difference in casing clearances. Engine oil is so much lower viscosity than transmission oil, so engine oil pumps likely run much tighter gear/geroter/etc. to casing/mating gear/etc. clearances to avoid internal bypass losses. Running 90W oil through one might cause the case to explode.

It'd be interesting to try...

Posted by: ThePaintedMan May 18 2016, 12:20 PM

Digging up Shane's thread here for some ideas.

As I'm swapping out to a 240(ish) HP motor, I know that the 901 is going to be running hot. But for a baseline, and before I spring for a cooler, I'd like to install a trans temp gauge. I guess the easiest way would be to drill/tap a hole in the side of the trans to put in a VDO sender. However, I'd rather not go drilling into things if unnecessary.

I'm trying to figure out if there is any kind of adapter that I could screw in place of the drain hole in the trans, then thread in a VDO sender. The trans holes are M22 I believe and the typical VDO sender is 1/8 - 27 NPT. Any thoughts?

I was thinking of something like this, with an additional 1/4 to 1/8 npt screwed into it.

http://cdn.opentip.com/Tools-Home-Improvement/Male-To-In-Female-Npt-Brass-p-6355029.html?ats=product_related

Posted by: stownsen914 May 19 2016, 10:28 AM

I run the scavenge end of my cooling setup off the drain plug. I would think you could put a temp sensor in there too. I'm sure you realize this, but it would need to be the drain plug and not the fill plug since the oil level is of course below the fill plug.

Re: the thread pitch, for some reason I thought the threads were tapered for the drain and fill plugs? The one shown in your link looked like M22 straight thread.

I had a machine shop bore and tap the stock drain and fill plugs for my trans.

Posted by: ThePaintedMan May 19 2016, 11:32 AM

Thanks - Tony mentioned the same solution to me. I guess the real downfall then is when draining the transmission. I bet it makes a pretty good mess having to remove the sender first, then put the hex socket on to remove the drain plug while the fluid is seeping out. But then again, I never was afraid of getting greasy.

Looking at the Patrick Motorsports adapter here, it does appear to be tapered slightly.

http://www.patrickmotorsports.com/part/screw-plug-adapter-transmission-drain-fill-plug-m22-tapered-thread-to-an-08-male/

Posted by: stownsen914 May 23 2016, 12:12 PM

Once you have a pump the circulate the oil, you can use that to drain the oil too .... just disconnect one of the oil lines and feed it to a drain pan