Printable Version of Topic

Posted by: RolinkHaus Nov 23 2020, 04:43 AM

Wondering if a Oil Catch Can is worth it?

How does it effect the cooling properties? Good possibility I will track the car in the future.

Posted by: RolinkHaus Nov 23 2020, 05:04 AM

Found some info.
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=100160&st=40&p=1241722&#entry1241722

Are there any measurable gains?

Posted by: GregAmy Nov 23 2020, 07:51 AM

Catch cans are required by most racing orgs to keep fluids off the track (you don't want to blow vapors to underneath the car, like the old 40s/50s "Highway Draft" systems...)

I've been known to race cars that had a hose off the valve cover stuck into a used oil bottle. Hey, it works...and it meets the regs.

I don't think you'll find that the various systems provide any performance advantage. Their first and foremost task is to safely collect vapors and liquids.

I'm using Tangerine's system on my historics 914. It takes hoses off each head and the oil tower, merges them together, then has a small hose that allows the collectiion to drip back ito another fitting on the oil tower. That way there's no can to empty.

Expect blowback (har de har) on the concept of allowing the vapors and liquid to go back into the engine. Some (like me) say it's harmless, other believe it's the Devil's drink itself that will destroy your engine. And there may be something to that, given I broke my chankshaft in half last year....

So, there's really no performance advantage in it, other than performance on a clean track is better than on an oily track.

Posted by: brant Nov 23 2020, 08:02 AM

If you put the car onto a track

You need an oil pick up
“Tuna can”

The catch can keeps vapors from dripping
The tuna can saves your motor from oil starvation in the corners

Posted by: RolinkHaus Nov 23 2020, 10:39 AM

If you were buying a tuna can which one would you buy?

Posted by: brant Nov 23 2020, 11:13 AM

I haven't really looked very closely at what is available.

the Weltmeister (old school kit) I don't believe is still available
but I know there is a billet one out now that is pretty affordable
I have not looked to see if CFR sells one

but they are pretty simple
they might be styled differently... but they are mechanically simple to work well

Posted by: GregAmy Nov 23 2020, 11:52 AM

If you're putting anything 200TW or stickier on a Type 4 engine, you really need dry sump...

But, if you insist anyway, the tuna can isn't really enough volume for extended g-forces; you really need an extended sump.

http://www.autoatlanta.com/Porsche-Deep-Sump-Parts-PN-RMIS300.html

I've got two of a different style I'm not likely to use, since the race car has a dry sump. The street car, which may see a TrackNight or two, is on Firehawk A/S tires...

Posted by: ChrisFoley Nov 23 2020, 02:32 PM

I have a few of the Jonesy tuna cans from the UK on my shelf. I don't advertise them on my website but would be happy to sell one. Best way is to inquire by email.

Posted by: RolinkHaus Nov 23 2020, 06:40 PM

Chris Foley ....Pm'd you

Posted by: Charles Freeborn Nov 25 2020, 04:42 AM

Mine has an accusump. Agreed not as good as dry sump, but a step in the right direction.

Posted by: brant Nov 25 2020, 09:37 AM

I ran an accusump on a type 4 for around 10 years of wheel to wheel racing
they work fine... I never ran a dry sump -4 to compare to.

the tuna can is cheap and easy for Driver education or autox
I would not be concerned about using a tuna can alone on a track with less than dedicated race tires. Especially for someone just starting out, or Drivers Education type of setting.

the accusump is better on slick race tires and long sweeping corners

I ran a 2nd Oil pressure sender in the front trunk oil cooler system
with the 2nd warning light, you could see the pressure drop well before the factory sender ever warned.

you could easily see when you forgot to open the accusump, and the difference once it was opened.

they tend to blow valve cover gaskets... if you spin or kill the motor and dump too much oil into the block.

Posted by: ThePaintedMan Nov 25 2020, 11:43 AM

Great info as always, Brant!

Posted by: Charles Freeborn Nov 25 2020, 06:05 PM

Mine came with the car and is old. Pre-dates the current ownership of Accusump. It's got an electrically operated valve with a switch on the dash that I've wired to an indicator light. I pre-charge the pneumatic side of the sump to 10psi. At idle I leave the switch off. When I'm on track, engine warm I throw the switch. Theory is if the oil pressure drops below 10 the pneumatic charge pushes oil into the system. I have to remember to switch off while running and above the 10 psi to re-charge the sump with oil before switching off engine. In a spin or a stall it's unlikely that I'd remember...

The newer switch mechanisms have a warning light switch built in that notifies the driver when the sump valve is open. So far mine works so I'll run as is.







-C

Posted by: RolinkHaus Nov 29 2020, 06:02 PM

Looking for this catch can. Pic posted by Kargeek, not sure he is still active.

Posted by: 914werke Nov 29 2020, 08:08 PM

I still Have a couple of the Welt. Steel version if someone is looking for one. They tend to be in demand when modding for alternate oiling for their ease to tap a scavenge line.

Posted by: RolinkHaus Nov 30 2020, 04:43 AM

Do you have a pic?

Posted by: 914werke Nov 30 2020, 10:47 AM

Of which the Old Welt. version or the Alum. version I now offer? No matter ~
Here you go:
Weltmiester

New Version

The most obvious difference besides being made of steel is its welded bottom vs the replaceable screen cover like on the OE case.

Posted by: RolinkHaus Nov 30 2020, 07:27 PM

Yeah, already have one of these. Looking for a oil breather box. Sorry for the confusion.

Posted by: GregAmy Dec 2 2020, 05:29 PM

I'd love to find a catch can that completely replaces the oil tower. I have dry sump so don't need oil fill (or dipstick) and it would be nice to just have a tidy box to insert all the hoses directly into it.

Never understood why VW designed that oil/breather tower that way, and with that method of attachement to the case. I'm sure there's a historical reason for it, but it just don't make no sense...

I may have to design something and ask Foley The Wizard to fab it up. Use the same cork gasket (can't think of any other way) but provide all the inbound fittings, and secure it to the case with plates threaded into the holes where there clip currently goes into. Or something like that.

Posted by: Jetsetsurfshop Dec 2 2020, 08:38 PM

Attached image(s)

Posted by: Jetsetsurfshop Dec 2 2020, 08:40 PM

This is Rev's VW Bug. Jake built the engine for them a year ago.


Attached image(s)

Posted by: GregAmy Dec 2 2020, 09:32 PM

So they inserted a bracket/bar across the void and used some studs/nuts to snug it down? Requires some extra machining/drilling but still do-able. Could even drill-tap into the case for fittings (though it's really thin there, risking cracking.)

I have to wonder: SCCA (among others) requires a 1-quart-minimum catch can. Think I can convince them that if everything terminates into the case that it's a "greater than 1 quart" catch can?

Yeah. Yep, I think I can.

I love being a rules nerd.

Posted by: RolinkHaus Dec 3 2020, 05:36 AM

Being that I have a late 1975 does it require a PCV valve or can I just connect the hose directly?

Posted by: RolinkHaus Dec 6 2020, 06:59 AM

In order for the oil catch can (oil breather) to work effectively, assuming the vacuum is coming from the air intake?

The question is the placement of the can? Most setups show the can mounted on the firewall. Would it not work better to mount lower? Trying to understand how to measure the amount of vacuum. Has anyone done this?

Posted by: GregAmy Dec 6 2020, 08:39 AM

The air filter provides no significant vacuum to the PCV system. It's there simply as a receptable for oil fumes, so that the fumes can get consumed by the engine.

The PCV valve is a check valve, to allow pressure out as needed but not allow anything back into the engine. It's not a bad thing to have, given that the other end of the hose goes to the non-filtered side of the air filter housing.

The purpose of a catch can in racing is to keep oil and fumes from being dumped onto the track. The reason a (typically) 1 quart size is required is so that it's large enough to not overfill during a race. It is expected that the competitor will review it between sessions and empty as needed.

You originally asked if a catch can is something useful, presumably for a street car. Generally, I suggest not. It's only real value is keeping the air filter from getting oily, which is not really a terrible thing given you'll be checking it occasionally anyway. And if you run an oiled filter like a K&N is really doesn't matter.

Posted by: RolinkHaus Dec 6 2020, 08:42 AM

Thank you!!

Posted by: GregAmy Dec 6 2020, 10:00 AM

Quick correction: I got to re-thinking and just looked at my 2L D-Jet. The hose from the PCV actually goes to the filtered side of the air filtered housing. So it'll get a tad bit of vacuum since it exists between engine demand and the minimal restriction of the air filter element.

However, the logic does not change: it's not a significant amount of vacuum and it's not intended to be*. IMO, the only reason to use a catch can in a street car is to avoid getting oil/fumes in the air filter and intake manifold, and I don't see how the juice is worth the squeeze.

I personally don't think it's a problem or concern for a street car.

GA

*This is a different concept than using a dry sump oiling system on a race car. In that case, the dry sump suction stages will actually create a strong vacuum within the crankcase itself, with the purpose of keeping down the windage/droplets friction and seating piston rings much better. But this is a level of vacuum and oil control that we'll never see on our street cars.

Posted by: RolinkHaus Dec 6 2020, 11:51 AM

Mine has a K&N.

Posted by: brant Dec 6 2020, 12:20 PM

A breather box should not be mounted low

Also the plumbing lines to the box should not have dips in the line which would cause oil to get oil in the low spots and essentially plug the line

You didn’t my need a breather box for your situation
Brant

Posted by: Charles Freeborn Dec 7 2020, 09:05 PM

Here is mine. Mounts to the cross bar on engine side. Feeds from a fitting where the distributor used to be and fittings machined into the heads. Goes to the little catch box that has a piece of screen and a block of coarse foam (sort of like fuel cell foam), and then exits out the back and dumps unceremoniously on the ground. I suppose some marshall will tell me the can doesn't have enough capacity and make me route it into another can of some sort. I'll fall off that bridge when I get to it.

Judging by the receipts from when the car was built the catch box probably came from Summit or similar.

Posted by: ChrisFoley Dec 8 2020, 09:41 AM

No need to drill holes thru the sides of the tower to attach a flat cover.

Posted by: GregAmy Dec 8 2020, 11:02 AM

Did you just jam that in down at the bottom? Gotta be careful not to tighten too hard, lest it pull up the aluminum block...

Do you sell this?

I'll convert the race car to that, it'll make the line routing a lot easier.

Posted by: ChrisFoley Dec 8 2020, 12:23 PM

When the aluminum block is rotated into position, the stud is then screwed thru to make contact with the shelf below and lock the block against the overhangs front and rear.

Its part of my horizontal cooling system. I never considered selling it separately.
The large sleeve is designed to accommodate the filler tower.

Posted by: GregAmy Dec 8 2020, 01:03 PM

Ah hah! ok, I see that now. I'll chat with you about getting one, but the top plate can be blank for me to tap/fit as needed.

Posted by: stownsen914 Dec 9 2020, 07:18 AM

Looks like an electric fan setup. Does it cool the engine adequately?

Posted by: Charles Freeborn Dec 9 2020, 10:02 AM

Yes, electric fan and shroud by AJRS (Alen Johnsen). Seems to do the trick. I haven't logged much track time with it yes on account of other issues. I have the fan thermostatically controlled by the CHT gauge. Comes on at 250º.
Plan is to add some air intake scoops on sail panels and duct directly to the fan opening.

Posted by: Jetsetsurfshop Dec 9 2020, 01:04 PM

How much??

Posted by: Charles Freeborn Dec 10 2020, 09:45 PM

Chris' flat fan set up is a thing of beauty. The cable weber throttle linkage too... maybe santa will be nice to me, but probably not..