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Posted by: trekkor May 10 2006, 12:58 PM

I have used many. ( $$$ )

Falken Azenis-YokoA032r-Hoosier A3s04 and R3s03-Kumho710's.

I like the 710's the best. Mine are not sticking on the a/x track like when they were new. Too many heat cycles.

I need to keep one set for a/x and another for the track.
Hoosiers are on closeout sale right now, I have a pair of two hour old Yok A048's and Toyo RA-1's are another good choice.

What seems to work for you?

Slicks are always an option, too.


KT

Posted by: Joe Ricard May 10 2006, 01:11 PM

Sanctioned events probably have a spec tire or a limitation by class or run group.

I have R3SO4 for the event this weekend. I don't expect them to last past the one day.

Next set of tires will be take off slicks.

Posted by: Aaron Cox May 10 2006, 03:36 PM

trekk, whats the story with the "misting" of the vracers between runs? would that help you out with longevity?

Posted by: jhadler May 10 2006, 03:40 PM

Some tire compounds are designed to heat up quicker than others. There's an optimal temperature range for the tires, and if they retain too much heat between runs, they start to go off, and get slippery. The spraying of water on the hot tires cools them down, so they don't overheat durring the next run.

Some tires are better than others at handling heat. Falken Azenis tires for example, you'd think would be fine. They're not super sticky race tires right? Bzzt. They begin to go off at surprisingly low temperatures compared to a race tire. So even those tires often need spraying down between runs, especially on heavier cars...

-Josh2

Posted by: SirAndy May 16 2006, 09:21 PM

i went from crappy street tires straight to goodyear racing schlicks ...

GoodYear R250, yeah baby!


i'll *never* go back to any DOT anything, victo what, kuhme who ....
Andy

Posted by: J P Stein May 16 2006, 09:55 PM

I started on hardball street tires....205s at both ends.
Then:
Victor racers 205 & 225s
Hoosier R3SO3 225s at both ends. I learned about the longevity of tires on 914s
from the first 2 types
Hoosier A3SO4 225 at both ends
Hoosier 10 X 22 X 16 R35 slicks both ends
Hoosier 10 X 22 X 16 R35 R & 9.5 X 23 X 15s F Both in R35.

Posted by: grantsfo May 17 2006, 12:29 AM

Kuhmo 710s for me. I still need to drive to events and 710s are bare minmum before I go to race slicks. Quite a few people drove on 710's to the SCCA event I drove in this past weekend. They reported having few problems driving shot distances on these tires.

What are race slick equivalent to 265/45/16 and 225/50/16? Where is best place to buy race slicks? I'd love to run the last couple events this season on real race tires.

Posted by: J P Stein May 17 2006, 04:06 AM

Slicks are problimatic, size wise.
The cantilevers are made 7/8 X 15 wheels.
Normal slicks are big & go bigger.....generally, they take a wheel
the same width as the tire......10 inch tire, 10 inch wheel.....these are smallish.
.....metric cross section would be in the 255 range.
Compounds from from one make to another don't have any relationship that I can discover....but for AX, you want the softest they make.

Hoosier's & Goodyear's website list the sizes available.....and their not getting cheeper

Posted by: J P Stein May 17 2006, 10:10 PM

[/quote]

So if I have 8" fronts and 9" rears and run 265 in back and 225 in front what would specific sizes be? I need to be careful not to go much wider than the metric sizes as my fronts just barely rub when I make shrp turns and rearss are real close to rubbing.
[/quote]



You don't say what diameter wheel you are using.
Cantilevers are for a 15 inch wheel. I don't wanna lead you astray
cause, frankly, I don't know what will or won't fit to your application.
You * should* be able to fit something like Andy is using on his similarly flared car.
Those are not the smallest slick Hoosier has.....but it's close.


Go here for the Hoosier selection:
https://www.hoosiertire.com/rrtire.htm

You'll have to search for Goodyear stuff as I don't have that bookmarked.

Posted by: trekkor May 17 2006, 10:24 PM

Grant, since you are running five lug. get a second set of rims.
Aren't a set of 7x15 Cookies around $200?

Randal may be able to help you find tires.


KT

Posted by: SandyI May 17 2006, 11:30 PM

Just ran my first event at Streets of Willow on 235/255 Toyo RA1's on 17" Fikse wheels under my GT flares. The RA1's work great in the heat at Streets. (It was about 95 on Monday. Hate to think how much hotter it will be for the next POC event at the end of June.)

Posted by: Joe Ricard May 18 2006, 05:12 AM

Andy's cantilevered slicks MUST be mounted on 7" wheels.
I will be fighting this also when it comes time to buy the next set of tires.
my Diamond wheels are 8" wides and my centerlines are 8.5" wide
The slicks I have on the Centerlines are barely suitable for AX. I highly doubt they wil stand up to track stuff. Hoosier C3000 22 X 9.5 X15 compound R25 designed for Formula Atlantic cars.

Guess I need to bite the bullet and buy some 7" wheels

Posted by: J P Stein May 18 2006, 07:42 AM

8s work better.

Posted by: SirAndy May 18 2006, 12:12 PM

he's correct!
the goodyear slicks don't stretch. they are designed for one rim width only!

the ones i run (R250 in 15 x 9) *ONLY* (and i mean ONLY) fit on a 15x7 wheel ...

the sidewalls are so stiff that the tire can not be stretched ...
Andy

Posted by: J P Stein May 18 2006, 12:36 PM

Sorry, Andy, but that is not correct.
You may think/do what ever you want, tho

You want pics of a guy that runs Goodyear cantis on 8s and has been doing it for years?
I'm doing it now with Hoosiers....and yes, there is a good reason for doing so....
not that you would be interested since it can't be done.

Posted by: Joe Ricard May 18 2006, 01:27 PM

OK old guy, Pm me with the details. So far you have a damn good track record of givng me good advice.

as evidenced by my car being fast as hell.

Posted by: SirAndy May 18 2006, 09:13 PM

no sir, you are mistaken on that one. they might make them for 8" rims, i don't know.
but i do know for sure that they CAN NOT be stretched ...

here's a link to the goodyear PDF for the EAGLE slicks. also, see attached picture, they only show ONE rim-size, no range, one size only ...

http://www.racegoodyear.com/pdf/2006_price_book/eagle_sports_spec.pdf

Andy


Attached image(s)

Posted by: trekkor May 18 2006, 10:04 PM

I'm pretty sure the chart is showing specs for the tire on the rim it was mounted on.
All charts are this way.

EDIT: Most charts are this way. I don't know anything about the tires you run.

The tire has to stretch...Otherwise it would be *impossible* to install






KT

Posted by: SirAndy May 18 2006, 10:36 PM

ok all you smartasses out there obviously know more about those specific tires than the manufacturer ...

trek, have you *ever* looked at a tire-chart in your life? if you had, you would know that you get a "range" of possible rim-widths. do you see a range anywhere on that chart i posted?
have you ever touched the bulge sidewall of a goodyear slick? did you know that you could probably hammer a nail into a 2x4 with that sidewall? any idea how *hard* that damm thing is? ever looked at the design of the goodyear slicks? ever wondered how they can have ~10" of contact patch mounted on a 7" rim? ever crossed your mind that this might be a "special" design to get around the the racing rules that don't allow wider rims but didn't specify the actual tire size?

the attached picture doesn't give you a great view of the sidewall, but it's shaped like a c-clamp and the sidewall is as hard as a rock.

i have no clue what JP does with hoosiers and other brands and i don't care. i never said anything about other slicks, just the goodyears i'm running.

let me sum up for you what i have learned about the GoodYear G19 Eagle slicks:

THEY FIT ONLY ONE RIM SIZE

is this clear enough for you?
Andy


Attached image(s)

Posted by: trekkor May 18 2006, 10:51 PM

Easy, Killer...

Now bring me a drink.


KT

Posted by: grantsfo May 19 2006, 12:01 AM

Yep Summit says 7 inch only

http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=GDY%2D0880&N=400181+307370+4294793325+115&autoview=sku

My Kuhmo 710s arrived today - very nice!

Posted by: SirAndy May 19 2006, 10:12 AM

how about that?
Andy

Posted by: nebreitling May 19 2006, 10:18 AM

i've heard of people mounting canti's on everything from 6-8" wide wheels. look at hoosier's tire charts, and you'll see a range of 6-8", with 7" being recommended.

goodyear may be different. but whatever.

Posted by: nebreitling May 19 2006, 10:19 AM

btw, nieslony runs his rear goodyear cantis on 8" rims, and his front on 7".

Posted by: SirAndy May 19 2006, 12:17 PM

i'm sorry that i feel so strongly about this, but that's the kind of attitude that kills people ...

as stated in my previous posts, i know nothing about the hoosier slicks, or kuhmos or whatever. that's why i don't make any comments on those ...

racing is dangerous enough already the way it is. recommending to stretch a racing slick on a rim it was not designed for is just plain stupid and a recipe for a tragedy.

- best case scenario: nothing happens, all is fine

- worst case scenario: the tire comes off the rim at 120mph at searspoint and the guy dies


is this really what you're after? if so, remind me to never share the big track with you guys, as i value my life ...

it's one thing to substitute homedepot for a raceshop when it comes to accessories, but playing/cutting corners with the very thing that keeps you in a straight line at 120mph is just plain stupid.

and recommending it to other people is borderline criminal ...


again, look at the picture i posted on the previous page. all but one tire are designed for a 7" rim. 7" rim *only*. this was done to accomodate the club racing rules that only allow up to 7" rims for some of the more popular racing classes.

both of you guys, trekkor & nathan (i don't know about JP) have never even run goodyear slicks yourself.
how can you even make a statement like that? what if a newbie comes in here and see's your postcounts and thinks you actually know what you're talking about. and then ends up dead a month later ...

did i mention that i feel very strongly about this?
safety should always come first on anything track related, not your ego ...
Andy

Posted by: nebreitling May 19 2006, 12:27 PM

okay, but i feel it's fairly extreme to construe my 'whatever' statement as criminal negligence. Rather, i intended it as a disclaimer to the effect that:

a) i have not run these tires, but am considering doing so

i have seen and heard (countless times) of rims from 6-8" being used on cantis with NO anecdotes of failure due to rim width

c) i specifically disclaimed goodyear from the discussion

d) i have absolutely zero ego on the line with regards to this argument.


so there!! :beer:

Posted by: Dan (Almaden Valley) May 19 2006, 01:26 PM

Posted by: SirAndy May 19 2006, 01:27 PM

i was talking explicitly about the goodyear slicks, so i can't and won't speak for any other brad cantilever slicks ...

again, anybody who promotes the use of *goodyear* slicks on rims other than the size listed by the manufacturer just lost all their credibility will me, no matter how old you are or how much experience you might have otherwise ...

you're playing with peoples lives ...
Andy

Posted by: trekkor May 19 2006, 02:12 PM

I don't recall ever recommending anyone do anything with the Goodyears...I made a few wiseguy remarks, I give you that.

I've spent a good amount of time looking at tire charts for nearly every tire manufacturer.

Most give acceptable rim sizes and measurements on a specific rim size.
http://rogerkrausracing.com/GY1.html

KT

Posted by: jhadler May 19 2006, 02:32 PM

It's not directly specific to the issue of stretching cantilever tires onto wider rims, but this tire tech article at RS racing is very handy...

http://www.rsracing.com/tech-tire.htm

Ron Vermulm is the guy behind RS racing, a really nice guy...

-Josh2

Posted by: SirAndy May 19 2006, 03:14 PM

i must be blind!

i count 4 (four!) out of at least 100 tires that give a "range" of accepteable rim sizes, *all* other tires are for one (and i mean one!) rim-size only ...

please tell me what you see on that chart that i don't ...
Andy

Posted by: trekkor May 19 2006, 03:33 PM

My "most" was not for just that chart. I mean most charts.

KT

Posted by: SirAndy May 19 2006, 03:39 PM

ok, so we agree then? yes, most charts, especially street tires, give you a range of acceptable rim sizes for a tire. i agree, no problem there ...

for the goodyear slicks, however, the manufacturer is very clear about the fact that their slicks only fit *one* size rim, and not a whole range of rims.

please, do *not* stretch your goodyear slicks onto a rim size that it is not approved for by the manufacturer. please.

and if you do, or think it's acceptable to do so, please stay away from me on the track ...
Andy

Posted by: jhadler May 19 2006, 03:49 PM

Here's the thing...

There's a WORLD of difference between racing slicks and DOT radial tires. They are totally different creatures.

Just a quick outline: Radial tires are very rigid along the treadface, and relatively soft along the sidewalls. This means that the tires can fit onto a "range" of rim widths without grossly distorting the treadface. Bias ply tires are very ridig along the sidewalls, and very soft at the treadface. This means that the treadface (contact patch) will distort if you mount the tire on a rim width that it was not designed for. _SOME_ slicks can work with a range of rim widths, depending on the manufacturer, and others most assuredly CANNOT.

These are just the gross manufacturing differences between the two. Needless to say, the radical construction differences mean that suspension setup and driving technique much change between the two. And anyone that says otherwise hasn't optimized their setup on either side...

-Josh2

Posted by: SirAndy May 19 2006, 04:33 PM

that about sums it up and that's all i have to say about this ... i'm done ... do as you please, but stay away from me while i'm out there ...

good luck!
Andy

Posted by: J P Stein May 19 2006, 04:52 PM

Bill:
Thanks for the info, but (not to sound like a smart ass) this is old news to some of us.

Now smart ass mode:
Apparentely, we of the hinterlands (anything outside of the bay area) are unacceptable sources for any sort of information relating to this subject matter.
The "you're gonna die & take some innocent with ya" demagoguery was a bit much....but I'm sure there is more where that came from. You being a member of the inner circle may convince others that they should reconsider their position.

If there was a good R35 straight side slick in the 8.5/9.0 inch range, I wouldn't use the effin' cantis......the reason would probably start another round of "you're fulla shit" so I'll keep my own council on this one.

Posted by: J P Stein May 19 2006, 05:32 PM

Hay, Bill:
My 240Z buddy tells me that he talked to Goodyear about the
cantis on 8s and they gave him the go-a-head some time back....so they are consistent.

He's been running them on 8s for years......too damn quickly, I might add.
As a matter of fact, he's running your ex cantis now......sorry, I couldn't find a P car for em' In my search for traction I came across the 4ea 10 X 16s with a pair of slicks so the ones I got from you (a hell of a buy, btw) got passed along (for a hell of a buy) to him as his were toast. He killed me twice this season on em' so far....but still can whupp his little blond 17 year old grandaughter....wonder how long that'll last

Posted by: trekkor May 19 2006, 05:34 PM

Sooooo...On to other tires. I've got 11 track days on my calender, not including GGR TT series.

I *must* order tires today or Monday if I want to have them ready for Friday.

I just can't decide which I want.

710's, Hoosier R's or Toyo's... or other?

My track days are not racing, so times aren't critical.
I'm looking for longevity and consistant grip over the life of the tire.

Number of heat cycles before garbage would be nice to know.

I need to keep this new set off the a/x track as that destroys tires and due to the track use, they aren't competitive either.



Also with the Toyo's. I know for dry racing, they get 'em shaved for better performance. ( Spec Miata tire )
Since I need life of tire, can I run them unshaved for longer life or will I be disappointed due to the squirmy feel?

Thanks,

KT

Posted by: Dan (Almaden Valley) May 19 2006, 05:36 PM

Bill,
Are you still trying to pass off that chassis on some unsuspecting sole?

This is an interesting discussion. I am surprised at the amount of peptic acid being churned up by this.
If you spoke to the goodyear folks, I would think that would be a pretty definitive answer.

Also the experience of folks like RKR, and other such should be sufficient to quell most fears or concerns.

I have been running TT/DE/AX for quite a number of years (16+) and have never personally witnessed any tires of any type coming off the bead of the rim.

I have run against cars on street tires, DOT Rs, Cantis and real live slicks.
It is something that just doesn't seem to ocurr very often.

Posted by: Dan (Almaden Valley) May 19 2006, 05:38 PM

Trekkor,

You aren't considering Kumho Victoracers?

I am enjoying the grip of mine....

Posted by: trekkor May 19 2006, 05:42 PM

I'll consider anything.
Tell me how long they last.

Remember, I won't a/x them.


KT

Posted by: nine14cats May 19 2006, 05:51 PM

Trekkor,

Talk with Rich Walton about the Toyo's. The Toyo Cup cars are getting some pretty good longevity out of them. I also noticed that several of the cars in the VARA group in SoCal have switched from the Kumho's to the Toyo RA-1's based on similar lap times and longer wear.

I'm doing the same thing as far a tires...I just ordered my new set of R250's for AX and when the time comes I'll re-order my GY R600's since they are wearing great and are the spec series tire I need to run....

P.S. I'm keeping my gumball hoosiers for the Time Trial runs....

Hey...I just heard I may make Buttonwillow TT.

Dan...you available to instruct Doris?

Bill P.

Posted by: Dan (Almaden Valley) May 19 2006, 06:01 PM

Bill,
I'll make some time for Doris during the weekend. Don't know when it will be but I will make sure to get in with her.

What happened, did you find that 4 diamond motel in Lost Hills....

Posted by: trekkor May 19 2006, 06:18 PM

I just talked to Rich. I had actually put in a message to him a few hours ago.

I'm going to try a set of Toyo's: shaved.
They are cheap, too. ( OK, cheaper )


KT

Posted by: drew365 May 19 2006, 06:21 PM

I'm sure all you CSOB know that Hoosier is discounting their 05 tires to clear them out. I ordered two sets Monday and they showed up today. Pretty quick and cheap. Relatively speaking in a world of $3.30 diesel!

Posted by: SirAndy May 19 2006, 06:30 PM

and that proves what?

it's not even that much about the tires, it's about the attitude behind it ...
i, for one, don't like the idea of running on the track with other pilots who think homedepot is the best place to shop for their racecar parts or think they have to cut every possible corner just because they can or try to squeeze the last penny out of every thing they put on their car or run tires on rims they were never designed for ...

apparently, nobody else has any problems with "stretching" safety until it fits their liking ...

honestly, this has been a real turn-off in regards to my desire to go club-racing with you guys ...
Andy

Posted by: trekkor May 19 2006, 06:39 PM

Home Depot sponsors racing...If that helps.


KT

Posted by: SirAndy May 19 2006, 06:44 PM

thank you for proving my point! i knew this would be the way you are looking at it.

i don't think there is anything funny about this ...
Andy

Posted by: trekkor May 19 2006, 06:49 PM

Seriously, we're a safe group.

I won't do anything to put you or I in risk.
My car always passes tech.

In fact many of us run equipment not required for safety's sake. Even me.


Don't be mad


KT

Posted by: Dan (Almaden Valley) May 19 2006, 07:12 PM

OK, I wasnt' going to go here but I can't help myself.

Andy, exactly how much track/AX exprience do you have.?
I am not quite sure where you are coming from with this. You rag on lots of folks about what they are doing but I don't hear you doing any of it for the most part.

If you haven't come out to one of the track events and witnessed personally what goes on, then how can you comment on it?

Thanks for the effort you put into this site but that does not entitle you to rip on any one that does not completely agree with your narrow point of view. I guess the information that Bill accumulated is not interesting or informative to you in any way?

Flame away



My Nomex is on.

There I said it.

Posted by: SirAndy May 19 2006, 07:36 PM

i've been to the big track a few times, 10 maybe. probably about 20-25 AXs ...

i am narrow minded because i go by what a racetire manufacturer tells me about their tires in their product description?
what a respected reseller lists on their website for the same product?
what other respected racers have told me?
what i have experienced so far with my limited track/AX experience?

you have got to be kidding !!!

i don't care how many times you drove in a circle and how many years you have tried to kill cones in a parking lot,
stretching a racetire beyond what it was designed for IS NOT SAFE and anybody who tries to tell me otherwise does not belong behind the wheel of a racecar ...

period. my narrow minded opinion and i'm sticking to it ...
Andy

Posted by: Dan (Almaden Valley) May 19 2006, 07:43 PM

OK doaky

Posted by: trekkor May 19 2006, 07:56 PM

I like track tires...


KT

Posted by: J P Stein May 19 2006, 08:59 PM

And I'm sure it will get the respect it deserves.

Posted by: SirAndy May 19 2006, 09:05 PM

*if* i was looking for respect, i wouldn't be looking for it here ...

so, you are saying it's perfectly fine to overstretch your tires ...
am i understanding you correctly?
Andy

Posted by: trekkor May 19 2006, 09:07 PM

Say, Dan. You ever run the Toyo's?
I know KenH has. He likes the Kumho's better though.

I want to try the Toyo's. I think of all the Spec classes that run them and so on. They must be good, right. Just kinda nervous over here.


KT

Posted by: J P Stein May 19 2006, 09:16 PM

What you can't seem to get thru your stubborn German skull is that Goodyear has said repeatedly that mounting these tires on 8 inch wheels is *not* "overstretching" them.
You are the only one that says that they are being "overstretched". Maybe you should call Goodyear and tell them that they are all fucked up. Maybe they'll put you to work as the chief straightenerouter of all us dumb fucks who are trying to kill ourselves & everybody around us.

Posted by: nine14cats May 19 2006, 09:33 PM

Trekkor,

Go over to the Pelican Board and post your questions about the Toyo's there. Or PM Mark Scott of Scott Associates who runs a Beck's powered 68 or 69 911 in HSR/VARA. Lots of guys running Kumho's, Hoosiers and Toyo's. Scott has a clean car and has won a series championship. I rmember him talking about the switch from Victoracers to Toyo's. I'm sure if you do a search there you could get info on it.

IIRC, the guys running track events said the tires lasted longer (heat cycles and tread) if you shaved them. Probably has something to do with chunking the tire. I remember when we were running the 2.7 914 during a rainy weekend that dried out during my run session. Victoracers were on our light car and they stuck great once they came in. I also tried a set of the V700 Ecsta's after that and I thought they were terrible. They got greasy really quick during a 25 minute run session. I have never tried the V710's or Hoosier Dot R's on the track as we had already made the move to slicks by that time.

Bill P.

Posted by: trekkor May 19 2006, 09:52 PM

Thanks, Bill.

Rich W had told me this evening that a 4-6/ 32's shave is critical.
He said they went through 5 sets in the 25 Hours of Thunderhill.

He was telling me how he went out on tire's that were at the 6/32 tread depth. Their lap times were 3 secs slower than the 4/32 cut.

If I get them, he recommends the 6/32's shave for me, as I will improve as they wear in and increase grip all the way to the wear bars

For reference: the full tread depth is 8-9/32's.
Full tread in competition is only used in the wet.


KT

Posted by: SirAndy May 19 2006, 10:49 PM

have you ever sold anything for a living? ever worked for a company that sold products?

in a fairly small market like this certain type of racing slicks, one would think that a company like goodyear would be interested to sell as many of those tires as possible.

*if* they could be mounted on 8" without any problems, you can be *certain* goodyear would list that size in their spec-sheet. this is called marketing ...
however, they are very clear that those tires are to be mounted on 7" rims only.
why do you think that is?

there obviously is a reason why they do *not* list 8" as a allowed rim size for their tires ...

apparently, the goodyear specifications in print and online can easily be ignored and substituted with rumors and anecdotes ...

again, thank you for proving my initial point ...
Andy

Posted by: trekkor May 19 2006, 11:11 PM

His eyes are x's. I think he's dead, boys.


KT

Posted by: SirAndy May 20 2006, 12:02 AM

i know. that's why you should be able to see what i'm trying to say here ...

nowhere, not just online, but also (and even more so) in print, have i ever seen or come across a specsheet for this particular type of tire (from goodyear) that *ever* listed anything other than a 7" rim as the size. ever.

now this might be the biggest hiccup since marketing was invented, but i have my doubts ...

in addition, for everybody here that states that they have heard that it's "ok" to stretch those tires, i have had someone else tell me the opposite.
i guess it now comes down to who can dig up the more impressive names to go with their claims ...

if i am wrong and these tires can be safely mounted on a 8" rim, goodyear has had the lousiest continuous marketing campaign of all times, hands down,
because they could have sold hundreds of thousands more tires over the years ...

i guess these guys are missing out on a ton of business as well!
http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=GDY%2D0880&N=400181+307370+4294793325+115&autoview=sku
someone call them and let the know ...

Andy

Posted by: trekkor May 20 2006, 12:36 AM

Bill, thanks for the idea to go over to Pelican and poke around.
I learned quite a bit about the Toyo's.
"Sprint shave", "Enduro shave" etc.

Some guys say run full tread and enjoy improving grip all the way to the cords. Some say run shaved at 4/32's.

Seems to be the same story. "To each his own".
All tend to aggree that the tire is fastest on short treads.

So, If I go with the enduro shave at 6/32's or even full tread the tires may be at peak grip by the end of the season when I should be at the top of my skill level.

People have been worried about chunking or squirmy feel when used at full tread on dry tracks.
No reports of chunking were found but some stated squirmy feel.
Some of that seemed to be due to underinflation.

I want buy from my local America's Tire Co. here in town because they have been so good to me. They don't/can't get shaved Toyo's though.

I could buy the tires from AIM and pay AM Tire Co to do the mount and balance.

Never ending, huh?

KT

Posted by: nine14cats May 20 2006, 12:41 AM

Hi Trekkor,

Yeah...there was alot of discussion about the Toyo's on the bird board. If you decide to buy the shaved tires....get them sent to you and have your local tire guy mount and balance. Or maybe your local tire guy can buy from AIM wholesale B2B. They make a couple of dollars and you don't have to deliver to them.

As far as the different tread depths, you could try one set one way and log it into a notebook and then try a set a different way (shaved versus unshaved). Let the data tell you how they perform regarding wear, laptimes, driver preference. It may take several months, but you'll collect some information.

Bill P.

Posted by: trekkor May 20 2006, 12:42 AM

In case you were wondering about the Yokohama 225's I have.

I'm not brave enough to run them. I think they will burn through my paint in the rear fenderwells.

This picture is not the greatest, but it's what I have.

the 225's mounted.


KT


Attached image(s)

Posted by: grantsfo May 20 2006, 12:43 AM

This is a debate? If so I'd say niether side has offered compelling evidence one way or another. Seems quick way to resolve this is to talk to a Good Year tire engineer or rep involved with race tires.

All the other companies typically have great people available to speak to consumers.

Posted by: SirAndy May 20 2006, 12:46 AM

well, of course they do! and they (summit) are just one source, not the absolute source. can i attach PDF's to posts? i'll try ...

directly from goodyear itself, fresh from the oven and still warm ...

so, you're telling me that whenever you see a specsheet for a product, any product, you *always* call in person to verify the content?
you trust the ingredients list on the back of your canned soup?
the expiration date printed on your yoguhrt?


if you can download the attached PDF, please note that we're not just talking about a typo, *all* of the G-19 tires for the production classes are listed as one rim size only ...
you will also notice that the few tires of the formular type that can be used on different rim widths are CLEARLY marked with a rim-width range !!!

what are the chances that your sales rep you had on the phone wasn't sure, didn't know, had no idea, was new, or worse, in india ...

maybe you should get a job at goodyear as they cleary seem to have a huge marketing problem on their hands ...

i'm sorry, but i just don't buy your "they must have fucked up their print material and spec-sheets because i spoke to a guy who told me different" story ...

hey trek, if you say please, i'll let you touch my schlicks next time at the AX, just so you can get an idea on how stiff those sidewalls really are ...
Andy


Attached File(s)
 eagle_sports_spec.pdf ( 146.84k ) Number of downloads: 210

Posted by: trekkor May 20 2006, 12:48 AM

The nice thing about AIM, is they are at Sears Point and I can pick them up shaved for less than the price of AM's Tire Co unshaved with shipping fees.

Track's less than 20 minutes from home, you know?


KT

Posted by: SirAndy May 20 2006, 12:53 AM

i never based anything on the ad at summit's website. that link came along after i had made my initial argument. it's simply to show that there *are* people out there that think those tires should only be mounted on one size rims.

my real argument has always been the print media that comes directly from goodyear ...

so it looks like we're now down to:
did goodyear fuck up their print media years ago and has been too lazy to fix it?

that is basically your argument, am i correct?
Andy

Posted by: SirAndy May 20 2006, 02:03 AM

well, if you want to get picky on me ...

i never "quoted" you with that sentence, i *asked* you if that was basically what your argument was boiling down to.
technically, two different things. of course, you only saw the printed online version. if you had called me, i would have explained it to you in more detail ...



Andy

Posted by: SirAndy May 20 2006, 02:08 AM

i was serious! c'mon bill, you are in advertising! a company as huge as goodyear should not, and can not afford to, have obviously incorrect spec-sheets and product information on their website.

that wasn't a blow against you, that was me poking at goodyear.
if you are right, they have a HUGE problem with their advertising.
plain and simple ...

don't tell me i'm wrong on that one as well ...
Andy

Posted by: J P Stein May 20 2006, 08:55 AM

Once again, pick your gurus carefully.
If you need advice on an issue like this, bounce the Q off a couple of them. If the stars align, give it a shot & find out for yourself......they YOU know.

Thus far, I haven't had any problems with cantis on 8s. Since I'm running around parking lot killing cones, the danger to myself & others is minimal.
I could run them on 7s, but one of my gurus warned me off that for AX. That particular guy didn't say to use em' on 8s instead. I extrapolated at bit from another source or 2. So.....nobody recommended running cantis on 8s. Some said they did so and since I had a problem to fix, that's how I fixed it and it worked.

Problems that come up for guys that actually do stuff (vs armchair quarterbacks) can cost time & money (500 bucks for a pair of cantis + wheels). Research is good prior to jumping in. I satisfied myself that this was a possible cure and put my money on the line. Right or wrong, there it is. If I'm wrong, it won't be the first time so ego doesn't enter into the equation. The only thing that counts is the result.

Posted by: SirAndy May 20 2006, 09:22 AM

dude ... i told you before, *i* have been told by people that *you* would consider experts and/or gurus, apparently, they didn't tell you, too bad for you ...

btw. exactly what makes one an expert?
Andy

Posted by: SirAndy May 20 2006, 09:30 AM

sorry to tell you that, but in germany (and probably most of the rest of the world) a manufacturer that has false product descriptions and datasheets and knows about it and doesn't do anything about it would be regarded as *incompetent* ...

the fact that you're fine with that fits perfectly in my 10+ experience with CA workethics ... must be the sun ...
and yes, you could regard this as a low blow, just my observation, *quality* and "standing behind your product" does not seem to be very apprechiated around here ...

i'm sorry man, that's just not right ...
Andy

Posted by: SirAndy May 20 2006, 09:35 AM

hold on, putting on my marketing hat ...

you just contradicted yourself. big time. if goodyear sells 99.9% of those tires to go on 7" rims, then, according to your claim, they're missing out on a *HUGE* market of 8" guys that don't buy their tires because they don't *know* that they fit a 8" rim ...

that's about the worst marketing argument i have ever heard ...

and yes, i run my own company, and have so for years. and yes, i sell products and services.
and yes, i have worked for multi-multi-million dollar companies and know a thing or two about selling stuff in large quantities ...
Andy

Posted by: J P Stein May 20 2006, 10:17 AM

Experts are those who have BTDT and have been successful in their chosen field.
Like yourself, I'm not a name dropper.....they're hinterland guys anyhow.

The point is moot in any case.* I* made the decision months before this thread came up and there's nothing here to make me reconsider. In fact, with the admittedly
short time I've been using the car for it's intended purpose, the results have been positive. Tho I'm still slower than I would like, the car is much easier to drive & the push is gone. Both my co-driver & I are learning to drive the thing, so we have hopes for measurable improvements against those that are currently faster than us......assuming the front tires don't explode killing everyone in view.

Speaking of unsafe set-ups, what are you doing to improve your suspension problems .....beyond your chassis deformation? Which guru recommended slicks on a car that wasn't set up for them? Didja notice how this attack dog crap cuts both ways?

Posted by: Dan (Almaden Valley) May 20 2006, 10:35 AM

Posted by: trekkor May 20 2006, 10:39 AM

Funny discussion. Let's see if I got it right?

"Canti's are cool"
"Yeah, I know, man"
"They won't/can't fit on 8's, dude"
"Listen Bro, I seen it. Come look"
"No, you're dumb"
"Hey,hey...I asked them guys. It's fine"
"So what?"
"arrgggh!"
"Hack"
"Chop"
"Outsch!!"
"You OK?"
"Yeah"
"They don't fit, though"...



KT

Posted by: SirAndy May 20 2006, 10:44 AM

have you seen me on the big track lately? no? well, there's a reason why i have not attended any DE/TT with my car recently ...
why? because i feel it's not safe with the current problems. go figure ...

no one recommended slicks for my car.
well, actually, bill p. sort of talked me into it.
i bought them from him. but i was a willing target.

Andy

Posted by: trekkor May 20 2006, 10:45 AM

My wife just saw this and asked, "So , do they fit?"

I told her yes...


KT

Posted by: jhadler May 20 2006, 11:06 AM

I'll keep my resonse short...

Cantilever tires are advertised to fit 7" rims because -that- is the market they are being sold to. Look at most of the smaller displacement production and many formula classes. Most are required to run a maximum rim width of 7". Which is why cantilever tires were created in the first place. It doesn't neccessarilly mean that's the -only- rim they'll fit on, but only the manufacturer can tell you otherwise.

And trekkor... I like the idea of the Toyo's so long as you don't need the -fastest- tire on the track. My favorite saying about Toyo's? "Toyo's, they suck for a really long time...". They won't be the fastest, but they'll last a lot longer.

-Josh2

Posted by: nebreitling May 20 2006, 11:16 AM

this has turned into a stupid thread.


Attached image(s)

Posted by: trekkor May 20 2006, 11:34 AM

Let's turn that around.



I wonder how they stick compared to the 710's?
The 710's work extremely well. I have not driven them to the edge and so they have not gotten greasy on me. At all.

I ran an old set of Hoosiers at Streets of Willow. Those seemed ok.

I have run on my street tires (Yok YK 420's) at Sears, Thunderhill and Laguna.

They howl like crazy and roll over a lot, but were still fun. 195/50/15's

Right now fast is not the big thing. It's smooth and consistant.
I need everything to be predictable as I slowly creep up in ability.


KT

Posted by: Dan (Almaden Valley) May 20 2006, 11:37 AM

Why don't we leave the slick/canti debate for another day....

I believe Trekkor's initial inquiry was about Toyo, yoko, hoosier, kumho DOT Rs.

He couldn't fit cantis under his current fenders. Doesn't even look like 225s will fit on the rear of his car in it's current configuration.

Trek,

My good friend Jeff Reitmeir and his co-driver Jim Lane in the 924S, used Toyos last season and they both said they were junk for their application.
They went back to Kumhos this season for practice and I believe they have a set of Hoosiers for Timed Runs. They both agreed that they worked well in the rain and lasted a long time, but for ultimate grip they were nothing special. I think Jeff knows a thing or two about good vs. fair vs. junk tires, for AX and TT.

Just because the Toyos are the spec tire for a couple of groups like spec Miata or 911 cup, does not mean they are a great tire....just means those guys have to use them and they are getting a bit of a discount at purchase time.

remember you are still in a steep learning curve on the track.
Get a particular tire and stick with it the entire season. Constantly switching tires does not let you learn the progression you are making. "Is it the tires or is it me?"
With your car you should be able to get a set of what ever manufacturer's tires and run a good portion of the season. If not then, either your car setup or driving technique needs to be attended to.

My $.02

Posted by: J P Stein May 20 2006, 11:52 AM

So.....we're dumb for wasting our time here.
What are you doing here, informing us of our dumbness?.....thanx
Please continue rating threads so I'll know which to avoid so's I don't seem like a drooling idiot.....even tho I am.

Posted by: trekkor May 20 2006, 12:05 PM

Thanks, Dan.

From your 914 point of view, knowing that I have seven track days experience on the 710's, would you suggest that I continue on them again?
I know I like them. They are very comfortable to me.

I won't rip up the next set at the a/x, so they will certainly see way more than seven track days.

KT

Posted by: Dan (Almaden Valley) May 20 2006, 01:45 PM

If that is the tire you are comfortable with then I would go with them. But then again I think you will learn more about your car's dynamics on the track on a less extreme DOT R tire.
Kumho Victoracers or even the Toyo RA1s would be more along your current learning curve. The 710s will cover up some driving issues the other tires might not. You will learn more on a less agressive tire.
I would stay with a DOT R but not the most aggressive like the 710s or some of the Hoosiers.

Just my take on the learning curve of students.

Posted by: nebreitling May 20 2006, 01:45 PM

what about victoracers, trekkor? good grip, good life -- they're also a pretty progressive tire at the edge.

Posted by: trekkor May 20 2006, 04:44 PM

I couldn't wait any longer. I ordered another set of 205/50/15 710's.

It will be interesting to see how they feel with no a/x'ing on them.


KT

Posted by: Dan (Almaden Valley) May 20 2006, 05:47 PM

Well, there you go.....

I guess we will be seeing how the 710s wear during track sessions this year.

I am going thru the same considerations right now with my new 6.5x15 minilites. If I get the mounting issues straightened out...I need to decide if I am going to mount up another set of Victoracers or go with something else. Don't want to go to Hoosiers or 710s...at least this season.

I had been throwing around the Toyo idea until I talked to Jim and Jeff.

So I guess I will either use Victoracers or A032Rs. Since I have been happy with both of those tires in the past.

Posted by: grantsfo May 20 2006, 05:50 PM

Good choice. Cant wait to install my big fat 710's if they grip better than Victoracers I will be quite happy.


I spent about two hours on deserted mountain roads today getting seat time in the 914. The Victoracers are an awesome street tire. I flew up Jamison Creek road a la hillclimb style. The grip was wicked. Man this car is balanced!

2 miles from home my shift linkage broke.

Posted by: trekkor May 20 2006, 05:57 PM

Dan, I thought you picked up some of those A032's on close-out?


KT

Posted by: Dan (Almaden Valley) May 20 2006, 06:10 PM

Nope I got some slightly used Victoracers, that are mounted on my Fuchs.
Now I need to decide all over again for the minis.

Posted by: trekkor May 20 2006, 06:17 PM

I think the '32's are still available on Tire Rack, but...Only the hards.
That may work for you. I only ran the softs for a/x and went through them really quick.

KT

Posted by: trekkor May 20 2006, 06:23 PM

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/Sizes.jsp?make=Yokohama&model=ADVAN+A032R


KT

Posted by: Dan (Almaden Valley) May 20 2006, 07:49 PM

yeah, I have been watching them on Tirerack for several months. If I can't get the issues with the minilites rectified, then I am just going to run my Fuchs with the Victoracers until they are gone. If I do get the minilites to work then I am going to get a second set of tires for the track on them.

Then I will have a nice set of black center Empi Look 8 spokers with 195 michelins for sale.

Posted by: nine14cats May 20 2006, 08:55 PM

Hi Trekkor,

I just got back from LA. Had to see my daughter this morning.

Wow...sorry about the tire thread going off course. I deleted my posts that related to the rim issues so that YOUR thread is returned to you. I apologize for helping it get off course.

If anyone is interested, I did send a message to Goodyear last week about the slicks and the rollover on them during AX for the sizes on Fritz. Last night I also added another message about the canti's. Hopefully Goodyear will respond in a timely manner. They have in the past.

Last week I dropped off Fritz at JWE to redo the suspension geometry setup. We're trying our best to dial out the 2 wheel bit. If anyone is interested in what we find or what Goodyear has to say, just PM me.

Now back to your regularly schedule Track Tire thread!

Bill P.

Posted by: trekkor May 20 2006, 09:37 PM

Aw, man.
That stuff was hilarious.

I'm glad I was on last night to see it.

Oh well, maybe I should delete my junk, too.


KT

Posted by: 9146R May 21 2006, 10:08 AM

I have both the Hoosiers R304S 225x45x15 running on 15x7 fuchs front and 15x8 rear and 205x50x15 Toyo RA1's. I have not shaved the Toyos. No question, no debate for me...I like the Toyos but in my 914-6 they dont hold a candle to the Hoosiers on the track. I am told shaving the Toyos improves their grip, turn in,etc. but have not done that yet.
The HOOSIERS are much stickier, better turn in, more predictable at the apex and just simply make the car handle better, faster.
With the HOOSIERS on sale - no question - buy them for your track days. Greg Braun turned me on to them 6 years ago...you might seek his input too.
Greg Welch

Posted by: Petit Bastard May 29 2006, 09:13 AM

Hi guys,

Does anyone have feedback the new Hoosier vintage radial called the Speedster.
The vintage club I race with(VARAC) requires 60+ series for my class and this new Hoosier is beeing offered in the size 185/65/15 witch is ideal (I think) for my 5.5'' OEM Mahles.I now have Yokos 048 205/60/15 witch are OK but still to wide for my rims and contact patch is minimal.
MB

Posted by: Joe Ricard May 29 2006, 10:05 AM

Never heard of these tires. Speedster???
Until they wear out my R3S04 Hoosiers in 225/45-15 will be just fine. I figure one more track day is left in them.

Posted by: trekkor May 29 2006, 08:33 PM

I'd like to know more about the "Speedster". Sizes, pricing.

KT

Posted by: Petit Bastard May 30 2006, 06:30 AM

Hi KT,
Try this link https://www.hoosiertire.com/pb10306.HTM
MB

Posted by: Joe Ricard May 30 2006, 10:10 AM

Those look pretty cool.
wonder what the tread wear rating is. or is it done by compound rating.
Might have kept me off the slippery slope I am on in regards to Hoosiers no fitting on 4 lug Fuchs.

Posted by: jhadler May 30 2006, 10:56 AM

Joe, somehow I doubt that something so simple as tire choice would have held you back off that slope. A team of draft horses couldn't have held you back...

-Josh2

Posted by: Joe Ricard May 31 2006, 05:17 AM

Yup failing miserably as a concourse weenie.
However I could have stayed in DSP with 4 lug Fuchs if I could have bought some sticky tires to put under it. I don't classify V700's as sticky

DSP didn't have weight restrictions, which happen to be my arch enemy in prepared.

Posted by: jhadler May 31 2006, 11:52 AM

So Hoosiers or V710's weren't sticky enough huh?

-Josh2

Posted by: Joe Ricard May 31 2006, 01:59 PM

NO, V700 is what I typed. Referring to Ecsta and Victor racers. DID not like them. Lasted a long time but.

V710's are in the same category as the Hoosiers like an 1" wider than any other 205/50-15

So after taking a hammer to my rear fenders to fit bigger tires then getting kicked out of SM-2 and Prepared allowing REAL slicks . hell here I am putting in roll bars and taking out interiors and hopping up the power and and and and.

Posted by: jhadler May 31 2006, 04:01 PM

Yeah, the V700's are alright. But not in the same game as the V710's or the Hoosiers. The Victoracer isn't a bad tire, and is an excellent intermediate tire. But the Ecsta? Eh, I've never heard anything but lukewarm reviews of that tire...

Slicks are fun, no doubt about it....

-Josh2

Posted by: Virgil Jun 17 2006, 05:30 AM

I am gonna get the wheel dimensions tommorow and will be able to tell what tires will fit my car, I want to put flares on there to get the larger tire under the wheel well but i am gonna go for the stickiest I can find, toyo makes a good tire in wierd sizes so I will start my hunt there.

Posted by: Randal Jun 17 2006, 09:37 AM

Dan's paragraph, "Remember..." is simply a great piece of advice Trekkor. Follow it and you'll become a better driver.

Posted by: trekkor Jun 17 2006, 11:34 AM

I've committed myself to run the Kuhmo 710's for the rest of the season.

I'm now finalizing pressures. starting 26-28 cold seems to work very well.

Having two sets, one for a/x and one for track, is a goal.


KT

Posted by: grantsfo Jun 17 2006, 12:00 PM

My 710s will go on after my nxt AX or track event - still have a few more runs left on my Victoracers

Posted by: Virgil Jun 22 2006, 08:06 PM

Toyo makes a great tire, wish michelin pilot sport 2's came in the right sizes for our cars, they are a great street/track tire and have excellent wet traction characteristics (I have Mich. Pilot Powers on my motorcycle, excellent tires, saved my arse several times in the rain).

Posted by: brant Jun 22 2006, 09:05 PM

some of the porsche guys in our vintage club have tried them (also in 60series)
they went back to the hoosiers.

in fact I know where you can get a steal on a set of 4 with only about 1 track day on them in a 205/60/15

Posted by: Virgil Jun 22 2006, 11:52 PM

Anyone try the ContiSportContact 2? I checked and I think they come in the right size. I have heard good things and they typically aren't over priced.

My wheels are 15x5.5, not sure what i could stick on there.