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Posted by: Joe Ricard Oct 4 2006, 09:58 AM

So I'm sitting here at work and can't stop thinking about what it would look like to build a no holds barred 10/10ths DSP Solo II car.

If you were to build it how would you do it?
Suspension Koni sports or some UBER expensive Moton or JRZ shocks
16" kodiak or other light ass rims
Coil overs and stiffer front Torsion bars Front sway (big) Chris Foley's delrin suspension bushings.


Engine 2.0L with as much compression as possible SDS or Haltech Individual throttle bodies Lightened flywheel 6 puc clutch balance porting with in the rules.
Tangerine, complete Mallory ignition or compatable with EFI



Interior including seats Got to have a back pad But Fiberglass shell seats like a Momo EVO or something. Guess carpet and sound pads on the floors.



Body with or without roll bar????? Engman kit????
Early doors with all tar removed
Early targa top.

Can't figure out bumpers ?????

Posted by: Aaron Cox Oct 4 2006, 10:02 AM

Mueller bearings or a 935 heimjjoint front end.... why bushings when you could use bearings?

i dont know the body rules for DSP - but i think the most aero one was the wayne baker kit (can get it from AIR) or the sheridan narrow body.....

Posted by: Joe Ricard Oct 4 2006, 10:25 AM

Uh Yea Aaron..... Good point got to know the rules before you build a car.
How about I give you the link. http://scca.com/_filelibrary/File/2006_solo_rules.pdf
Mueller bearings NOT
Body kits NOT NOT

Posted by: grantsfo Oct 4 2006, 10:29 AM

Why cant you just carpet the firewall rather than using the backpad? I guess worse case senario you could buy some very lightweight foam and fashion a back pad that looks like stock.

Do they allow fiberglass bumpers? If not think lightest bumpers would be early model steel painted

Posted by: Joe Ricard Oct 4 2006, 10:48 AM

Bumpers Yea, I am still tearing the rules apart looking for the loop holes. Damn thing is if doesn't say you can. THEN YOU CAN'T
Sometimes the rules are written with "intent" of to favor newer cars.
This leave the 914 and others out hanging in the wind.

and Bump steer spacers are specifically illegal.

Posted by: itsa914 Oct 4 2006, 10:49 AM

My DSP car

1970 914 with 2.0L from a 73 with euro P&C still FI. 73 side shift trans, welt bar front sway bar, 21 mm torsion bars, trubo tie rod ends, engman kit, koni adjustable on all 4 corners, no rear bar, 150lb springs on adjustable pearches. Keizer 9lbs rims with Kuhmo's. I have GTS LeMans seats & 5 point harnesses. No back pad, but still have the insulation pad (plan to install it, needed a later style since I added movable passenger seat)

There is more that cane be done, but this is my street car also.




Attached image(s)

Posted by: Joe Ricard Oct 4 2006, 11:42 AM

There was some discussion between Josh and I about the Euro Pistons.
I am not sure but to get the every last Nth out of the motor you have to raise the compression and take advantage of the over bore limit which I don't remember if over size factory pistons are available.
Remember I said money no object.
Also thought about the early 1.7L piston which has a dome vs. dish. What would prevent us from running it? can the wrist pin location be compensated for with regards to 71mm stroke?

Are there any of the stock cams that are hotter with SDS type EFI like 1.7 early or a bus grind????
How creative can we push the motor.

Posted by: 914forme Oct 4 2006, 01:40 PM

Money no Object, Jake will build you a class legal engine, that will put the power down With Overbore etc......

Posted by: jdogg Oct 4 2006, 02:23 PM

My interpretation of the rules is that the Engman kit would be illegal (no chassis stiffening) and also the Euro P&Cs would be illegal (no compression increase, and since it is a Euro market item, there is no update/backdate allowed). The backpad issue is another I have had thoughts on. Fortunately for us, we are mostly competing against drivers in newer cars who know jackshit about 914s....If they look inside and it appears neat and orderly, and he engine doesn' t have a lumpity-lump idle from a cam, it all looks good!

Posted by: Joe Ricard Oct 4 2006, 02:42 PM

SOOOOO why wouldn't I be able to build a motor????? I built the one I am running now and it seems to be kicking everyone's ass.

I am building the next one right now that will dominate the regional scene.


Lumpity lump..... Hmm I just don't hear a lumity lump when breathing through a set of Webers. .500 lift 300 duration.

The fact that the motor doesn't really come alive till 3500 RPM is about all I can tell is different.

Oh yea everybody knows that a carbed car won't make MORE power using stock cam.

I guess the challange is you protest and pay to have the motor torn down for a trophy? Better be damn sure you know what your looking for.

Posted by: jhadler Oct 4 2006, 03:49 PM

Okay...

Can't do anything inside the motor other than balance, 1mm over, 0.010 off the heads, and port match 1" in. The rest is STOCK. Not PCA rules "stock", but as it would have come off the showroom floor...Blueprinted, but not "built"... If you can't match the spec in the factory manual with what you have in the engine, consider it illegal unless otherwise allowed.

Anything more in the motor and its technically illegal, and cheating if you do it deliberately. And don't always assume that someone has to protest you for something specific to get caught. There are times at Nationals where the top four or five cars have to go through a manditory limited tear down in some fashion, to be inspected by the chief of impound. One year, the top four cars had to pull their intake manifolds to inspect the intake tracts of the heads for illegal porting. Wasn't a single protest, they all had to do it in impound.

And if there's more than one 914 running in the class, a different cam _will_ get someone's attention.

Suspension, plastic/poly bushings, no turbo tie rods (spherical bearings).


So, what would it be?

Powertrain:

Light flywheel (maybe 12 lbs) and light pressure plate. Lighten the clutch, but not a racing puck as you can't modulate those suckers.
Tangerine headers.
ITB intake with programable FI and ignition.
If it's REALLY a 100% DSP car, and there is no other purpose, an electric fan conversion to free up some more power. That would entail a spiffy oil cooler setup with an electric fan as well. Remember, only for autox, I don't think this would work for street/track.
Oh yeah, and a rennshift...

Suspension:

Moton or JRZ's, stiff torsion bars, coil over rears. Nice adjustable front bar. Rear bar if LSD equipped (but not sure if it's a plus or a minus). Delrin bushings. Monoball camber plates.

I think 225/45-15's on 8" or even 9" wheels is going to be better than running 16's (or 17's) with the larger diameter. Becuase you can't change gearing, apart from running different tires, you're stuck. Going to taller tires will kill your acceleration, and possibly present the need for grabbing 1st gear in slow turns. Sure, 245's would be great in the turns, but are they worth the trade off? And can a sub 2000 lb car with 100 rwhp even get enough heat into 245's?

Brakes? Fully rebuilt late model brake system, bias adjuster, carbotech pads, SS line, driver's choice for the master.

Body:

Apart from the obvious early chassis with absolutely ZERO rust....

Early bumpers and doors. Late backpad with really light race bucket seats. No firewall soundproofing (was not present on early 914's). Removed the muffler heat shield. Flares for sure (stick with steel). Harnesses optional (but you gotta run with the roof on if you use a harness)... a nice MOMO steering wheel too...

Relocate the battery to the front trunk.

-Josh2

Posted by: jhadler Oct 4 2006, 04:04 PM

They're not written to favor new cars. They're written to even out the advantages for ALL cars. The SP rules are fundamentally unchanged (as they apply to the 914) from when they were introduced in the early 80's. And the 914 was anything but an "old" car then. The problem is that the rules were written with 80's technology in mind. They never immagined stuff like fully programable DFI engine management systems and VTEC, and electronically controlled boost regulators...

The reason why some seemingly innocuous modications are illegal is that what is minor on one car, could be a competitive advantage on another...

-Josh2

Posted by: jhadler Oct 4 2006, 04:09 PM

Problem is, there are still a lot of people at the National level that _do_ know 914's. They were a dominant car in the Stock category for years. And as a result, they became protest bait. People researched 914's, found the deficiencies, and exploited them in the protest shed. Some were bonafide, most were weenie. But as a result, a lot of people are familiar with the breed.

-Josh2

Posted by: Mike T Oct 4 2006, 04:15 PM

Oh, future DSP'ers...

Print out Josh's list.

Tape it to your garage wall and build the car.

Nice work Josh.

Mike T

Posted by: jhadler Oct 4 2006, 04:36 PM

I'll edit one thing on my list... Intake.

Not proven yet if ITB or some other kind of plenum is the way to go, I think Jake has some data on that, but not with a stock motor. But if you go the electric fan route, you pretty much gotta dump the stock intake anyway...

No, I haven't gone to an electric fan. I've thought about it, even designed and fab'd all the hardware, but I don't have enough confidence in it yet to trust my motor to it...

-Josh2

Posted by: ChrisNPDrider Oct 4 2006, 06:50 PM

Triple acid diping the entire tub then repainting one thin coat with one clear coat would eliminate lots of weight and cost losts of $$$. Hmmm, you guys are good. Can't think of much else. Great thread...learned a lot about DSP. PCA is pretty good here in NorCal, I'm not sure if anyone at all is focussed on SCCA in my neighborhood.

Posted by: Joe Ricard Oct 4 2006, 08:56 PM

I don't like the rule of battery tray can be removed if it is bolted. That's stupid. most of ours have rusted away anyways. But the rules as I read them ya got to weld a new one back in. I prefer to keep the PC680 oddessy battery snug on it's side strapped to the engine shelf front passenger corner. Reason is battery cable is heavy. keep it short but keep the battery near the center of the car in the engine compartment so I don't need a box to store it.

So all stock cams are the same?? I doubt it. EFI would allow to tune around it and the ITB's and header. Anyone know of a 95mm Piston? the shape of a early 1.7L (10cc dome) now there is some fuzzy grey area that might even stand up.

I like the Kiezer wheel thing about as light as it gets using magnesium centers.

Electric fans vs. crank shaft driven fan. Perfect. Lots of power there and quicker acceleration. Then you can use the A/C pulley to drive the altenator. Slick slick slick.... altenator would not be spinning very fast either with little pulley.

Clutch is unrestricted so why not a itty-bitty dual plate.

1.7L rockers seem to be a popular thing. Don't exactly know why but I got some in a box and in my current engine.

Come on ya'll think outside the box some more.

Posted by: jd74914 Oct 4 2006, 09:17 PM

Why even have an alternator? Will the rules allow leaving it out.

Posted by: jhadler Oct 4 2006, 09:31 PM

Alternator....

Yeah, the biggest beef I currently have with the rules. You're allowed ANY alternator, but cannot relocate it, nor can you even alter the braket. Strictest interpretation of that rule says that you can't do ANYTHING to the magnesium shroud the alternator is bolted to. I was a little looser in designing my oil cooler mount for the electric fan conversion. Came out nice, but maybe a tad bit grey. The alternator mount itself is unchanged, but the other side of the shroud is cut away...

But... You can still change the pulley to any size, so underdriving the alternator is the best solution. Just run the elctric fans off the battery in full loss mode and recharge the battery after each event.

Update/Backdate of driveline components is as a whole. You can't mix and match. So it's 2.0L pistons, and only 2.0L pistons, if you're running a 2.0L motor. Still, you can have 95 mm pistons made that in all other dimensions are the same as stock 2.0L pistons, and that would be perfectly legal. I've been told that the '73 2.0L cam is the best, but I don't know why or what the diffrerences are.

Clutch, you still are going to need some control over the clutch. There's not a lot of power in the driveline, even full-tilt SP, so why would you need a race clutch. There's so little modulation in those puppies, I think I'd go with some light weight, but otherwise stock clutch.

If I had the money, you bet I'd acid dip the tub and paint it thin. Here's a question for any 914 trivia guru's... Was there a model of 914 that did NOT have undercoating or soundproofing tar on it? If so, let us know, there's weight to loose there! If not, then ya gotta keep it...

-Josh2

Posted by: Joe Ricard Oct 5 2006, 05:07 AM

Good question on the under coat thing. I know the 70 did not have sound pad in engine compartment. undercoating is a tough one, don't suppose we have any CCW guys over here. Most of my under coating is either falling off or scraped off or abraided off from race rubber throwing rocks at it.

Chasis stiffening might be my down fall. I had to fix some flexing longs and ended up putting a plate on the outer long from the door all the way to the rear supension console. (worked good BTW).
Funky wording for fender flares too. can't remove the fender but can put on flares. That is protest bait as it is written.

Fan housing ???? I did not read that part as to having to leave the housing. just that the alt must be in the same location. even then it says "may" be in the same location. FAb up a bracket and I think you would be good.

So here is something that I have noticed with most rule sets.
Everybody reads what they want, most statements are interpreted differently.

Is it still cheating if you read and interpret the rule differently. (leave this for a separate thread)

I still don't think we are done with this car, I have 10 more hours here before I go home and think some more.

Modulate the clutch? Hell that what wheel spin is for, I spin the slicks on every good launch. 3000 RPM and let her rip.

Posted by: 914forme Oct 5 2006, 10:09 AM

You said money no object 10/10 car!!!!! I would go with a proven combo. I have talked to Jake before about building a kit for me to build, but if I was going to nationals, I would want Jake to do all the tuning, he has tools I don't. Two Dyno's and a much better sub set of information on the combinations. And the ability to setup for the event. If I was a one event person, I would go as far as to figure out the averages for where my run groups fall etc, and have the dyno match them as close as I can, humidity, altitude, temp, etc...... I am not doubting your ability to build an engine, one advantage is that you are the only one that knows what is there ;-) I still think Jake can build a better one with a given set of parts, than you or I could build. And I have access to Machining tools Jake would drop a nut for. I don't have two dynos nor do I build type-4s every day of my life. He does, it is his chosen profession.

I know it takes a lot of fun out of the project I like doing it myself also.

Yes I could protest your engine, and always find something that is wrong. Just depends on how big of an Dick I want to be. If it is not your engine it is something else on the car. I think I could make a good argument that Monoball strut bushings are not allowed on them camber plates also. You better have a bunch of teflon in there, it is part of the suspension system. See it depends on how big of a Dick I want to be.

I am not a protesting kind of guy. Winning a trophy via protest is not my idea of fun. Winning a trophy via blatant cheating is not fun either, and at a National event it seem the protesting tends to increase as the competition increases be it PCA or SCCA the crowd always has at least one Protest _____ Head.



Where are you guys looking for undercoating? My 74 2.0L has no undercoating. I had tar on the floors inside cabin, a back pad insulation and engine firewall insulation. But no undercoating what so ever. Just paint, and some seam sealer, my original -6 has no undercoating either. I don't think I have ever seen factory documentation that listed undercoated ( body Schutz) or not, etc.... If it exists, let me know, but I know my 74 -4 still had all original paint etc.... (If you look at the pictures it has 32 years of original paint and abuse to prove it.) And did not have a single piece of undercoating anywhere. Unless it is thin ( a mil ) and looks like primer under that paint.

Posted by: Brett W Oct 5 2006, 10:22 AM

Why bother, just buy the most competitive car in the class and develope it.

Anyway back to reality start with an early chassis and put all 73 parts on it. You will start out 100-200lbs lighter. Take advantage of all update and backdate loop holes.

Posted by: jhadler Oct 5 2006, 10:33 AM

And you better be prepared to loose your $50 then. Rule 15.8.F. ANY bushing/bearing is allowed in the connection between the strut and the camber plate.



Agreed. If I win, I want to know that I won fair and square. If I know I'm cheating, and I win, it'll be hollow and meaningless... A quote from the STS protest this year at Nationals "An illegal car cannot be permitted to finish ahead of a legal car...". As a result, the car was DSQ'd. And they were leading. Was it a blatant infraction? Debateable. Was it deliberate? Probably not. Was it an illegal competitive advantage? Yes.



I've got undercoating on my car, but I don't know if it's factory, dealer, or after... Granted, there's not a whole lot left on there, and it's pretty thin to begin with... But I'd love to be able to get rid of it all together...

-Josh2

Posted by: jhadler Oct 5 2006, 10:37 AM

There's the question though... With the bumping of the bimmers, there's no clear dominant car in the class. This really might be a shot for the 914...

-Josh2

Posted by: Joe Ricard Oct 5 2006, 10:48 AM

I guess one would need a bunch of pictures of stock cars without the "whatever" to prove your case.
Probably reciepts for all engine parts concerning internals. "Pistons 500.00" probably won't cut it.

mono ball camber plates are legal 15.8 F.

Brett I think the 914 is a competative car in DSP this year if it is done ALL the way.

The rest is the driver. I got one of them too. Just happens to not be me.

Posted by: Brett W Oct 5 2006, 11:11 AM

The thing is why not just follow what Fordhal has done in prepared? I just don't think a 914 can do it any more in the street prepared classes. There is too much technology available stock in other cars.

Driver is where it is in autocross. A good driver will be a good car most any day.

Posted by: jhadler Oct 5 2006, 11:22 AM

I'd love to!!!! Got an extra $40k lying around that you could give me to build that car?



I beg to differ. I think the recent class changes have given the 914 a new shot. It was hopeless in CSP where the Miatas had just gotten silly fast. And now that the high power bimmers (and lexus) are out of the way, I think a DSP 914 has a real shot at it. Is it a slam dunk overdog? No. And I don't think there is an overdog in the class now. The Subbies will have advantages on slippery and wet courses. But I think the 914 can do very well in DSP. The class is relatively unchanged now from what it was 5 or so years ago. The X1/9 ruled the roost then, and the 914 probably has about 10 or so more ponies than the Fiat... (championship X1/9 dynoed at 92 rwhp).



No argument there. A good driver will beat a good car 9/10 times. But you still need a decent ride to get you to the finish lights quicker than the other guy...

-Josh2

Posted by: 914forme Oct 5 2006, 11:48 AM

Drive 500 Miles to goto SCCA Nationals.
Have no shot in hell in winning.
Pay $50 to protest Josh's car


PRICELESS

RTFR I know I know

In reality if you bring a copy of this forum, I think we could all be sunk.

Posted by: jhadler Oct 5 2006, 11:58 AM

Come on, jsut because the 1st place trophy seems out of reach is no reason to miss out of the biggest autox event in the country! Hell, I've gone many times, and never did I have dreams of a podium position. First time I went, I just wanted to not be DFL and hopefully finish in the top 80% (which I did, barely)...

Nationals is too much fun!! Sometimes, it can be even more fun if you're not worrying about winning...

-Josh2

Posted by: Joe Ricard Oct 5 2006, 12:19 PM

What's cost to fund the engine tear down? and who pays it?

Yea this forum is going to hold water like rusty sieve.

Honestly I think my car is past the point of Street prepared.

My goal for 2007 is to continue in XP attend Houston and Walut Ridge Nationals Minimum. Nationals would be cool and I would show up without a trailer. car packed with tires and helmet, jack and maybe a quart of oil. I think Josh has the right idea try for anything but DFL.
Visit with 1100 + gear heads that are ate up with thier cars just as much as I am. How cool is that? Plus I "heard" there are a few places to spend my dollars (one at a time).......

Posted by: jhadler Oct 5 2006, 12:43 PM

If it's a protest, a $500 bond is put up for the teardown, and the bond is returned if the engine is found illegal. The bond is kept if the engine is clean. A few years ago, a CSP Honda was protested, the owner did the complete tear down to confirm the motor was legal, then returned the bond anyway, and re-assembled the motor himself. I think that was the ultimate rebuke, prove the car was legal, keep the jacket, and return the money...



It sounds like the chassis reinforcement is the only thing. What else?



Definitely get to a couple Tours. I'd say come out here for a Tour, but it's even further than Topeka. You might be able to arrange to get either your car, or at least the gear hauled there by someone else in the area. It's been done by many. When I've been a co-driver for someone else, I would wind up hauling wheels, tires, bicycles, and all sorts of gear in my daily driver.

-Josh2

Posted by: Joe Ricard Oct 5 2006, 01:58 PM

Or I could come out and co drive your car........

Posted by: jhadler Oct 5 2006, 02:24 PM

Tell you what Joe,

If you come out to a Colroado autox event (when my car is _actually_ working), and I don't already have a co-driver, you're on.

I only mention the co-driver thing because I owe a lot of people rides once my car gets running....

-Josh2

Posted by: 914forme Oct 5 2006, 02:39 PM

Looking over DSP results from Nationals it is a BMW event so you guys should be glad to see them go.

T 1 192 Mike Shields 1993 BMW 325is Blk Kumho 51.940 52.369 54.120(1) 101.539
[92] Temple, NH LightTheNight.org/Eurosp New Englan 50.859 50.548 49.599
T 2 156 Alex Shchipkov 1989 BMW 325i Blu,Dk Hoosier 52.013 52.110 51.706 101.944
[56] Albany, NY Soloracer.com/bmw2002.co Mohawk Hud 52.380(1) 50.405 50.238 (0.405)
T 3 119 David Fauth 1995 BMW 325is Blk Hoosier 52.036 54.028(1) 52.077 102.216
[19] Centennial, CO BimmerHaus/Hoosier Colorado R 50.983 50.474 50.180 (0.272)
T 4 19 Dan Goodman 1995 BMW 325is Blk Hoosier 53.850(1) 52.032 51.946 102.369
[119] Erie, CO BimmerHaus/Hoosier Colorado R 51.143 50.548 50.423 (0.153)
T 5 13 Toby Larsson 1994 BMW 325is Wht Kumho 52.459 52.303 51.969 102.789
Anaheim Hills, CA Elite Window Tinting Cal Club R 53.443(1) 50.820 52.571(1) (0.420)
T 6 198 Kevin J Youngers 2002 BMW 330Ci Red Hoosier 54.926(1) 54.017(1) 52.707 102.946
[98] Greeley, CO CR Racing/BimmerHaus Colorado R 51.096 50.239 50.340 (0.157)
T 7 195 Patrick Lipsinic 2000 Subaru Impreza 2.5 Hoosier 55.279(1) 53.675 52.045 103.118
[95] Tulsa, OK Kartboy.com/izoom gfx/Zz Northeast 53.567(1) 51.159 51.073 (0.172)
T 8 92 Christopher Franson 1993 BMW 325is Blk Kumho 53.315 54.138(1) 54.378(1) 103.663
[192] Vernon, CT Thanks Mike! New Englan 51.811 50.754 50.348 (0.545)
9 8 Eric Campbell 1995 Acura Integra Blk Hoosier 64.890(2) 61.505(1) 52.980 103.804

That was Fridays West Lot Runs, close to the same on Thursday. Top 10 cars on Friday 8 where BMWs.

I get a few more years under my belt with this car, Maybe I come on over and play. Right now, I have an auto-x to get ready for on the 16th, my car is in pieces right now. But it will give me a place to go do some sorting, and maybe beat a few Corvettes in the process. It is a Corvette club event. I need to go and.....

Posted by: jhadler Oct 5 2006, 02:55 PM

Yeah, and three of those drivers you just listed are in my region. Goodman and Youngers are both top level drivers, and David Fauth has two DSP National Championships in that car with another two Championships in D-Stock with his ITR. He's a natural, and suffice it to say, I was pretty much assured of only seeing his tail-lights when running against him. His nick-name in our region was "Cheater Pants". Not that he ran illegal cars, but that he always managed to pick the ideal car for a class with a soft index, and just KILL everybody on the index at local events...

Funny, I said pretty much the same thing when the M3 was bumped down to CSP for a year. "Oh great, now Bob Tunnell is gonna school my a**"... yeah, he's in my region too... A greater guy you are not likely to find. Hell of a driver, and a hell of nice guy, one I'm glad to call a friend of mine.

While I didn't have the pleasure of running against Fauth in DSP, I did run against Tunnell in CSP, and that was enlightening to say the least... The only time I had the advantage was the first 60 feet of the launch at a ProSolo. After I reached for second gear, all I saw were his tail-lights... Yeah, a 914-4 vs. an E36 M3 in a drag race... sure... that's even... uh huh...

-Josh2

Posted by: Dave-O Oct 5 2006, 03:07 PM

Don't forget about the Integra Type-R in DSP. 180hp, 2600lbs. 0-60 in 6.2s.

The big problem I see with 914's in Street Prepared (same problem I have in street touring...) is that they just don't see the power increases that the newer cars do with the allowed mods. I'm 30-40 hp. down on the Miatas in my class.

That being said, i would like to see more 914's compete at the national level!

Posted by: jhadler Oct 5 2006, 03:28 PM

You know... I'm not that worried about the TypeR. It's heavy, and it's FWD. Sure, it's a great autoxer, but is it a great SP car? I dunno. I think it's a fair match.



Yeah, but at the same time, some modern cars don't see much power gain because they're already tuned closer to the limit by the manufacturer...

-Josh2

Posted by: Joe Ricard Oct 5 2006, 04:16 PM

Very rarely do I not have a co-driver also.
Ever drive a teener on slicks? Wanna??????? Come one down to South town and you can give it a go.

So I guess this is about it for this thread and virtual car build.

"cheater pants" Yea I know a guy like that. He bought an 01 S2000 for the over dog in B-stock. That didn't last too long huh?

Hey wait a minute I bought the wife the Mazda only problem she won't let me have the keys on Sunday mornings.

Posted by: 914forme Oct 5 2006, 06:05 PM

Before he became GRM staff Member Per used to call himself a Car Slut. He mainly runs in H-stock, but will pickup any car that seems to be the dominate in H-stock. This year was the Mini - it is up forsale now.

I don't have the pockets for that, wish i did at times. But then in the long run this is probally more fun.

Posted by: Brad Roberts Oct 5 2006, 06:19 PM

I prepared and sponsored a CSP 74 914 2.0 in the SF region. 2-3 National past Champs ran that class from our region back in early 00-01. Showed up to all the events and placed 2-3 throughout most of the year and pole vaulted into first when I gave him new tires. People were blown away that a stock injected 2.0 914 was beatin their Miata's.


B

Posted by: jhadler Oct 5 2006, 10:21 PM

Brad,

What was the secret? And who was drivin'? I used to compete in SFR for a number of years, and knew most of champs. Just currious. I remember there was another 914 that was running in CSP in the late '90's, but he was usually a backmarker in the class (like I was at the time).

Stock injection... okay... what else????

Inquiring minds want to know...

-Josh2

Posted by: Brad Roberts Oct 6 2006, 11:12 AM

Nothing really special. The guy could drive.

I gave him a LSD tranny.. and AutoX Hoosiers.

The engine was maxed out class legal for SCCA ITA (which fit the CSP rules)

The car has a cage, but they looked at it and figured out that it provided nothing more than safety.. yeah right..LOL (ITA rules state nothing more than safety)

His name is Mike Harris.


B

Posted by: jhadler Oct 6 2006, 11:22 AM

Do you think the LSD is unavoidably necessary? A stock 2.0L doesn't put down that much power. I haven't had wheel spin problems in the past, but that's not to say I won't in the future...



Well, _any_ cage will help the chassis out. In pretty much any car... Was the cage connected to the suspension points? Bolted or welded? Do you think it was worth the weight to run the cage?



The name's familiar... It's been a while...

-Josh2

Posted by: Brad Roberts Oct 6 2006, 11:54 AM

Yes on the LSD. Your life will change when you AutoX or road race a 914 with one in it. The "light" goes on. Your driving smile will get bigger I promise a few tenths are hidden in the LSD. You may not hear wheel spin, but I bet a small data acq system would detect it.

The cage was welded, but per ITA rules it cannot pass through the bulkheads, so no suspension points where picked up.

Was it worth the weight? Yes. Once you get the weight moving.. dont slow down..LOL It is like having a 150lb friend riding with you at all times.


B

Posted by: jhadler Oct 6 2006, 11:58 AM

Quaife? Clutch? Other?

I'm sure on the big track it can make a difference, just wasn't too sure about autox...



yeah, I'm still on the fence about a cage for autox. I know the chassis needs all the help it can get, but the weight is significant...

-Josh2

Posted by: Brad Roberts Oct 6 2006, 12:28 PM

Clutch all the way on the LSD. 80/40 from Guard.

The transitions on the big track are NO where near what you see in an AutoX. I feel a LSD is more important in AutoX. I can only think of 2 turns at Thill and 2 turns at Buttonwillow where you NEED a LSD in a 914. THill= trn 5+9 BW= 9 and 4.

Do you know anything about those turns? They are all HILLS. Elevation change and corners is where you NEED a LSD for a road course.

I say all of this and we have elevation change at our Qualcomm AutoX stuff..LOL but we also get 80+ mph.



B

Posted by: jhadler Oct 6 2006, 12:34 PM

The peak loading in an autox is much higer, but the steady state, static loading is much graeter at speed on a big track. That's why I would think the LSD would be more helpfull on the big track.

-Josh2

Posted by: Brad Roberts Oct 6 2006, 12:38 PM

It is the "unsmooth" left/right transitions that unload and load the "inside" rear wheel in autoX. I'm glass smooth on the track with very little steering input. I dont upset the car much (if at all) on the road course compared to AutoX. I consider AutoX "more violent" than track time.

Several times people have pointed out to me at AutoX's.. you drive track events?? LOL

Posted by: 914forme Oct 6 2006, 08:49 PM

Thanks Brad, I have been on the fence as to which type of LSD to get, Quaife style or a real LSD. Looks like a clutch pack it is. 80% lock for auto-x with 40 decel lock Even Guard will tell you that is a lot of LSD for an auto-x car.

BTW, Josh, I know I am leaving a good second or more right now if I did not change my setup. ( seems like an eternity for the wheel to come down and bite again.) I bet you are leaving a couple of 10ths out there and not even knowing it. Maybe even more if you use the decel effect to its full potential.

Was the Sporto Tranny in a 914 different than a regular clutch type as far as gear ratios go? I know in a 911 they where, just not sure about a 914. Not that you see many 914-4 sports running about. I have only seen 1, and heard of another 914-6 sporto. If you coud run the sport tranny with out the elctro/hydralic clutch setup, and extra oil pump, it might be worth it depending on how the gear ratios worked out. I know you can't change internal components but you can update and backdate, so just a thought. I might be wrong like I usually am.

Posted by: bam914 Nov 20 2009, 09:31 PM

Bumping this back from the dead. I am helping my friend build a DSP 914. He has an early 70 model. He is bring it over tomorrow to put it in the scales so I can get an idea of what it will weigh. He bought the 2.0L out of my ITB car and we will be running direct fire SDS. We will be trying a few induction set ups. With the stock intake plenum and throttle body the engine makes 123wtq and 108whp. I hope to get a few more with a bigger induction system without hurting the TQ.

Posted by: jhadler Nov 20 2009, 11:12 PM

Blake,

With the power you've managed to generate in the IT car, I think a DSP car with your power plant, and wearing the 275/35-15 Hoosiers could possibly do something in DSP. But I still think it's gonna be highly course dependent. It's really going to need to be a momentum intensive course. Any low speed turns feeding straights, and the acceleration of the Bimmers will be really hard to overcome. The Bimmers are surprisingly good in transition, so pushing the momentum preservation capability of the 914 will be the key, hence the 275's I think...

-Josh2

Posted by: Joe Ricard Nov 21 2009, 06:56 AM

Admitedly I know very little about SP classes. But how do you get 275's under the fenders?

What I do know is them Damn Miatas are freaking fast in CSP with 275's

Posted by: bam914 Nov 21 2009, 07:34 AM

We will be starting with 225 for now. You can add flares, just not the whole fender is how I read the rule.

Posted by: jhadler Nov 21 2009, 08:30 AM

'nuff said.

-Josh2

Posted by: bam914 Nov 21 2009, 04:42 PM

Just got done weighing the car. All stock except for 32/36 weber on a 1.7 with all the stock heat exchangers and muffler. 2.0L Fuch wheels. I was a little surprised at how light it was. 1858# with 2 gal of gas and no top. So we strip the fog lights, radio, speakers and 10# for the flywheel and clutch, it should be close to 1800# when we are done.

Posted by: Joe Ricard Nov 21 2009, 07:10 PM

I read that you can do a fuel cell.
Steel stock tanks are pretty heavy.

Posted by: bam914 Nov 21 2009, 07:29 PM

I will be reading over the rules. It depends on how big the cell has to be. My 10 gal cell weighs more then the stock tank.

Posted by: jhadler Nov 21 2009, 11:13 PM

If I recall, the fuel cell cannot be less than 90% of the stock volume.

Fenders are unrestricted, but quarter panels cannot be replaced as a whole. You can even just sawzall the fenders and leave them open. No tire coverage rule is in place.

My biggest concern of a full-on SP 914 with monster tahrs, is the chassis flex that would result from that much grip. I just see the trailing arm mounting ears tearing out of the chassis...

1850#?!?!?! Wow, that's a lot lighter than I would have expected. Way cool! I can't wait to get my own car on the scales.

-Josh2

Posted by: igo914 Nov 22 2009, 06:11 PM

Josh2,

Hi. I'm Ivan, Blake's friend with the 70 building up for DSP.

Reading the below link:

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=98185&hl=

I believe you currently running 15x8 Diamond with 4-7/8" backspacing. Just trying to clarify the correct backspacing for 8".

Thanks.

Posted by: jhadler Nov 23 2009, 12:00 AM

Ivan,

Yes, that's what I was running when I was running the diamonds. I had a little rubbing on the front at full lock, and nothing noticeable in the rear after the "fenderizing". This was running the 225/45-15 Hoosier on the 15x8 diamonds.

I think that a well prepped 914 on 225's can be competitive locally, but nationally will require the 275's.

-Josh2

Posted by: igo914 Nov 23 2009, 09:08 AM

Josh2,

What were your tire temps running the 225 Hoosiers on the 8"s?

Do you really think the 914 can generate enough heat in a 275 for it to work well?

Ivan

Posted by: Joe Ricard Nov 23 2009, 09:40 AM

SO GT style flare are OK in DSP?

The future owner of the Red Neck Racer will be pleased if that's true.

Posted by: jhadler Nov 23 2009, 09:41 AM

Yes. If a BMW 2002 can do it (and win at Nationals), I have little doubt that a 914 can.

But remember, this is if you're building for a Nationally competitive car. The 275's will heat cycle out before they get close to cord. So you might want to bear that in mind with respect to tire budgets.

-Josh2

Posted by: jhadler Nov 23 2009, 10:31 AM

Any flare is ok. As a matter of fact, you could just sawzall the fenders and leave them unflared with big ol' tahrs stickin' out. So long as you don't replace the entire quarter panel, any flare.

-Josh2

Posted by: Joe Ricard Nov 23 2009, 01:03 PM

Cool, so now back to the motor.

I have all the stock 2.0L parts including a set of virgin 2.0L heads.

Just need a cam as the stocker is LONG gone.

Wonder if Raby can get me a stock cam?

Mallory ignition, nice Euro Header. 40 IDF's on 32mm vents, light flywheel. call it done.

Posted by: bam914 Nov 23 2009, 05:24 PM

Forget carbs and mallory ignition. FI is the only way to go. Ivan will be running SDS direct fire with a plenum of some kind. We might throw some throttle bodies on to test with. I am playing around with a program for that tonight. I can get you a stock cam.

Posted by: Joe Ricard Nov 24 2009, 06:35 AM

Wish there was more that can be done to a Type IV to run is Street Prepared.
1" of port match won't do much

cam is going to hold it back

bump compression with Euro pistons ????

Blue print everything to spec.

modify # of Fan blades

Ultra mini Alternator run off an A/C pulley

What else ?

Posted by: jhadler Nov 24 2009, 07:54 AM

No, but you gotta do what ya gotta do...



Yep, single biggest limiting factor I think. But if Blake can get those kind of numbers from an IT motor (not very different from an SP motor), then maybe there's hope?



Nope. Piston design had to be one which was available in the US. 1 mm over bore IS legal though. So you're already talking custom P&C's as most of the larger P&C sets start at 96 mm and go up.



Yep.



Electric fan conversion is legal so long as you don't alter the alternator MOUNT. But reducing the blades on the stock impeller? I dunno, don't know how much actual benefit it would have.



Yes, and I'd like to see how people might have/are/will do that. I'd like to do the same.

-Josh2

Posted by: Joe Ricard Nov 24 2009, 09:01 AM

Well I aquired a ultra mini Alt to go on the race car. I have been staring at this thing and my spare motor for a week. One of these days iam going to fab up a bracket and mount it to the big square block (passenger side) of the fan housing where the A/C went.

Blake can tell you how much HP is lost from a fully bladed fan. I think it is like 10 or 12.

What about full flow oiling?

Dry sump would be cool but probably not legal.

Posted by: bam914 Nov 24 2009, 11:24 AM

Going from a full fan to half the blades on my ITB engine was 2hp and 2ft/tq at the wheels. So with even less blades I would guess 4 more. There is a ton of stuff you can do in SP now. Like aftermarket brake calipers.

Posted by: jhadler Nov 24 2009, 12:19 PM

Full flow might be questionable as it entails machining of the case. Well, we all know it's just tapping into a galley plug port, but the rules will likely stand in the way of it anyway, as it's a modification of the case. But I'll probably do it anyway.



Dry sump? No. Deep sump or otherwise? Yes. Any oil pump, filter, cooler.

-Josh2

Posted by: grantsfo Nov 25 2009, 09:08 AM

Why not build cheater motor? Its done all the time with other cars in stock classes. Rarely caught if kept internal. When you hang around AX long enough its amazing how many people cheat in those stock classes.

Posted by: Solo914 Nov 25 2009, 12:42 PM

Cause its a cheater motor... I get what you are saying but what's the point? Are you trying to win or trying to win at any costs? So, you build a car that is a winner, does it feel good to win knowing that you had to cheat to do it. Wouldn't it be better to be a winner and know that you didn't have to cheat to do it. In most instances no one would ever know but you.

IMHO, you can build a stronger motor than Blake's because of some of the differences in the IT rule set and the SP ruleset. Biggest differences are 40 over pistons, lightweight clutch, flyweel and the intake being completely free. One thing that I have learned in Spec Miata from engine builders is that you can build an engine on the edge of stock tolerances everywhere and it makes huge differences. Especially with cams, you can make them so the are on the edge of stock tolerances in the right areas and can make a huge difference. Basically, if you can prove that ONE stock head came from the factory in that configuration than you should be ok. In Spec Miata, they are truing up the rules and specing even the machining now to take out some of the gray areas that engine builders were exploiting. We are talking about things like the depth of the plunge cuts behind the seats because builders could prove that they had one head from the factory that had a seriously deep plunge cut behind one seat and so they made ALL of the plunge cuts that deep.

Kyle

Posted by: Joe Ricard Nov 25 2009, 01:04 PM

Right Kyle That's my interpretation of Blueprinting. Measure and true up everything to the limit of the spec.

Line bore the case and deck the cylinder registers .040 bored P&C's No idea what a piston would cost to have made. Get the rings matched in to perfect gap and then heat relieve the tension for less drag.

No idea why we need to run 20W-50 oil if we build the bearing clearances to run thinner oil. Jake? Insight please.

Get a box of rods and weigh all them to select out the 4 closest.
Same with wrist pins.

Posted by: jhadler Nov 25 2009, 01:32 PM

Don't know how much a set of KB's would run, but I priced out a set of 95's from another vendor (damn, can't remember the name now) at around $500 for a set of custom 95's.



Actually, you can one better... Get a big box of rods, weigh them all and find the single lightest one. Then take three more and lighten to match. Same with pins, and pistons. SP rules allow for -balancing-, but not -lightening-. So the argument, and as far as I'm concerned, a totally legitimate one, is that you're simply balancing the parts to match. There's one part of each in there that isn't modified, so you're good.

This is the motor that I had -intended- to build, but never got around to.

I think that if Blake can get those kind of numbers from an IT motor, that there's power to be had in an SP motor.

-Josh2

Posted by: jhadler Nov 25 2009, 01:39 PM

I'm with Joe. The only person you'd be cheating is yourself.

It's not like there's big money on the line or anything. It's a $20 plastic trophy.

A cheater motor might not be caught, then again it might. People HAVE been protested for illegal motors, some have been found legal, others have not. Do you want to be that guy who gets the boot for a cheater motor? I don't.

Some things I'll argue in favor of. A full flow setup for instance. While it might not be legal to the letter of the rule, it's arguably not a competitive advantage at an autox.

Same would go for upgraded chain tensioners on 911's. I'd look the other way, others might not. But it's technically NOT legal for an SP motor because it's an internal engine modification.

Now, I'm all in favor of pushing the rules to the bleeding edge, so it's a fine line to walk on. But if I can easily come up with a protest for whatever I'm contemplating, and think it would stick and result in a DQ. I'll pass on the idea.

-Josh2

Posted by: jhadler Nov 25 2009, 01:43 PM

Oh, and speaking of cheater motors....

The Spec Pinata guys have it DOWN. I recall hearing of one guy who ran an entire season with an ABSURD cheater motor.

The rules require that the bore of piston #1 be measured for compliance. So all #1 bores are measured. Nothin' in the rules about #2, #3, and #4... Guy built a 1.6L (so, no restrictor), and bored the other three cylinders to accept 1.8 pistons...

Ridiculous...

-Josh2

Posted by: Solo914 Nov 25 2009, 04:44 PM

yeah, I have also heard of one guy that had nitrous but I have never actually seen it. It is not the guys at the front you need to worry about, its the guys in the middle of the pack. Honestly, its pretty easy to know who the cheater guys are on the track, he is the guy that PARKS it in the turns and motors by you like you were standing still on the straights.

Kyle

Posted by: bam914 Nov 25 2009, 06:31 PM

In my last job I built numerous Spec Miata engines as well as doing the machine work that went into them. I know exactly what it takes to make HP from a stock engine.

This is exactly what I did with my ITB engine which is now going in this DSP car. The rods weigh anywhere from 800g to 760g. The wrist pins weigh from 200g to 160g. I even weighed crankshafts. Everything deck height is the same, each head has the same cc. How else to get 108whp. I think this engine will make more power once we add the direct fire and have wasted spark and let it breath better with more intake. I hope to be in the mid to upper teens with it and still use the stock cam.

Posted by: Solo914 Nov 25 2009, 08:11 PM

Sweet stuff Blake.

Kyle

Posted by: Joe Ricard Nov 27 2009, 06:41 AM

Drive faster. If you are only capable of pushing a car to the limit on 225's then 275 will not make you any faster.

Friend of mine let me co-drive his CSP Miata. High speed stuff had him lifting his right foot. With him in the pass seat I stuck the car in the sweeper with my foot planted. Car stuck and he seen the light. Now he needs a NT trophy last event was one spot out.

In regards to tire temps. about 115 to 120 on the 275's

Posted by: bam914 Nov 27 2009, 07:54 AM

Hoosier wants the tire temps in the 140-150 range for autocrossing. I keep hearing people are getting over 100 runs on the tires and they still have lots of tread on them, they are just heat cycled out. That tells me they are not getting the tires up to temp. I know on my car that I can hardly get to 150* racing it. Good info though. We will keep thinking about.

Posted by: J P Stein Nov 27 2009, 10:26 AM

Getting tires up to temp is a major problem up this way....the rears aren't too tough but them fronts.... Cool temps, asphalt, and a light car work against you. 2 drivers work for you. Bout 40 runs & the tires start falling off. THe only thing I've come up with is 2 sets of tires......run the junk at local AXs and the good ones for "big deal events". If you come up with a solution be sure to let us know.

I have 6 cantis that have nearly 1/8 inch at the dots, but are heat cycled out.

Posted by: bam914 Nov 27 2009, 08:27 PM

We should have better weight distribution since we will only have a 4 cyl in the car and all the headlights and stuff need to be there. I think we are going to run 225's for now.

Posted by: Racer Chris Nov 27 2009, 09:15 PM

225 Hoosier is a lot of tire for a stock engine to push around.
I would think the limit is 245s, and the parasitic drag of a set of 275s would offset any increased grip.

Posted by: jhadler Nov 27 2009, 10:37 PM

I respectfully disagree. Grip is disproportionately more important than power when dancing around the cones. Parasitic drag of wider tires has much more of a detrimental effect when the straights are really long (like road racing), but when the straight is barely long enough to go up a couple thousand rpms in one gear, and the course is more linked maneuvers than straights, give me grip.

That being said, the 245's would be great if there were a 245 that was short enough. But the best 245 is the 245/45-16, which is considerably taller than the 205/50-15, 225/45-15, or 275/35-15, which are all the same height. The short 275 Hoosier is THE ticket for the smaller cars right now.

And if you think a stock motor isn't strong enough to push the 275, how much stronger do you think a stock motor in a BMW 2002 is? National Championship car in FSP this year. Yep, running 275's...

-Josh2

Posted by: Joe Ricard Nov 28 2009, 06:07 AM

I wonder if 225/45 up front and 275 in back.

I guess it would depend if the car pushes or not.

I have a lot more rear temp than front. My car NEVER pushes on new tires no matter what I am pulling off. 1.4 lateral G's and it more of a matter to keep the rear stuck.