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Posted by: Brad Roberts Oct 6 2006, 12:33 PM

I like Tom. Great guy. Got to spend time with him while I lived in NorCal.. but it doesnt mean I'm going to lay down for him at an AutoX..LOL

I have the chassis and the LSD gearbox. I dont even have to drive (I'll put a SCCA National Champ in the seat if need be)

What kind of HP/TQ will it take to beat him. I'm figuring the course is going to be VERY fast since it is being held here in SD.


Thoughts on this?

This will probably be my last "hurrah" with owning a 914 race car.


The car is GUTTED. No windshield.. very little to NO steel in it. Goodyear R430's on 7's+8's. Full cage. It will end up with alum floor pans with small tubes. Shifter/seat/steering wheel. 3 gallon tank.


B

Posted by: drgchapman Oct 6 2006, 01:39 PM

Brad, Britain and I looked his car over fairly closely at Parade this year. Old bushings that are cracking, basic suspension. Really big front and rear tires(especially the rears), really big rear wing. Car is completely stripped. Fiberglass body panels all around. I forget which /6 he has, but it is "built".

Put on a really big wing, really big tires and lots of HP and torque.

Then drive real fast.

Good luck.

Gary

Posted by: Rough_Rider Oct 6 2006, 01:51 PM

Can you get an idea on what the course will look like or what the surface will be.

Surface will dicate what tyres to run.
Course would influence gearing & torque / hp curve needed.

If course is unknown i'd vote for big torque over hp, to get you better scoot outta turns.

If you get over 200hp work on aero &downforce, but a regular wing ain't gonna cut it below 70mph. So either go for FSAE huge wing, or a straight-up spoiler.
Clean-up every seam, tape down joints / shut lines, weld doors shut, use aero tubing on leading edges.

Raise suspension pickup points to lower body without loosing damper travel.
Usual suspects on bearings & some nice tunable dampers wouldn't go amiss.

HTH.

Posted by: Travis Neff Oct 6 2006, 02:24 PM

Doesn't Tom run a 3.5 engine? (I assumbe based off a 3.2)

Posted by: Eric_Shea Oct 6 2006, 03:00 PM

For AX like that, I would think it would have to be big and torquie. Peaky doesn't work that well. I did well driving a 2.2T against the S's in the class.

Posted by: Brad Roberts Oct 6 2006, 03:24 PM

I know the surface VERY well and yes I'm betting I can get my hands on the course design WELL before others.

I could move the suspension points up easily while the car is apart. I have done enough of them in the past.. this would be a no brainer for me.

I have enough ratio's sitting around that I could build a torquish engine and gear accordingly.

Wings.. damn.. I dont have access to anything bigger than GT3RSR. I'm not a newbie when it comes to splittlers and wings.. but low speed downforce IS something new to me.

I'll call me friend Dave Ferguson and see what he did to win Parade in his 9146. I know he used an underbody tray that SUCKED the car to the pavement.

I *think* Tom is actaully running a 3.8, but I wont swear to it.


B

Posted by: Randal Oct 6 2006, 03:40 PM

Thoughts are great, but a car, or cars, based upon real math are better.

Briefly there are two approaches:

First you need a lightweight car (+/-1600lbs) that has all or most of the suspension tricks, including a full cage, so that the suspension works.

You need either a 3.6 (6) or a big well built 4. The 3.6 will need to be at least 300HP to the rear wheels, with tires to match. This configuration would probably be more like 1800lbs and change.

The 4 would need to be at least 200hp, with the same amount of torque, but can probably run cantilevered tires/slicks.

Great brakes, of course.

LSD is a must.

Raised suspension points are good.

And of course you need drivers. Maybe this is the most important element as Tom is a national quality autoX driver.

BPR has more than one car that fits the above description and our 2007 plans are to dial them in and compete locally and at Parade.

Posted by: Brad Roberts Oct 6 2006, 03:47 PM

OK. The chassis has 10's and 12's right now. I'll stick with those.

200hp T4 "check"

Even if I have to "borrow" an engine for the event.. LOL

I have the advantage of testing on the surface 8-10 times before Parade comes to town.

It will weigh 1600lbs NO problem (even if I have to fly Paul "Ury" in for some guidance)..LOL

I cant afford to run a "Hot" 3.6

I can have the chassis ready for powder coat in a few weeks...

B

Posted by: Brad Roberts Oct 6 2006, 03:50 PM

Brakes:

It is 5 lug right now F+R with SC rotors. I could run a lightweight alum caliper on it.

I can see shocks being a big cost factor. I would want something with external canisters like Fordahl runs in the white 914. He mounts the canisters/adjusters under the dash so he can "adjust" them while in line.

I'll have to call the "Moton" guy and see if I work something out.



B

Posted by: Aaron Cox Oct 6 2006, 04:10 PM

JRZ or what about the SRP fox rsr struts?

Posted by: Brad Roberts Oct 6 2006, 04:18 PM

You need something with at least 2way adjustment. The SRP's are rebound only. I'm sure JRZ has "something" for rebound and bump.

Sucks. Bilstein is down the street from me. They are working on an external canister for Porsches.. but I dont think they are for the early struts.


B

Posted by: Aaron Cox Oct 6 2006, 04:25 PM

hmmm....

what is tom running? just koni yellows?

look on ebay, i think SRP has a pair of JRZ's on there

Posted by: Aaron Cox Oct 6 2006, 04:30 PM

no idea on adjustability....

also you wouldnt be able to use the rears (911)

but here is the JRZ shizzle

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Porsche-911-74-89-JRZ-High-Performance-Suspension- Kit_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ33590QQhashZitem2473096746QQihZ003QQitemZ24730967
46QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW

Posted by: jd74914 Oct 6 2006, 04:41 PM

This sounds really dumb, but I remember TimT saying something about 911 rears on his car? I knwo they aren't supposed to work.

Posted by: J P Stein Oct 6 2006, 04:57 PM

3.4 (5?)L twin plug, hi butterfly RSR MFI......show up with 200 hp & you'll be down 100 hp minimum. Looking the car over, there is nothing truely trick...WAG 1700-1900 lbs)...but it's damn fast and Tom has been driving it for years. He took to the high speed course at PIR like a duck to water. You'd better get an SCCA National champ (and a member of the PCA) that can do his magic within 3 runs cold...cause Tom can. One fella came close to him in a late 911 racin' vehical.......but this ain't horse shoes

I was thinkin that a cup car would blow everyone into the weeds on that PIR course (NO tight stuff)......I didn't see any Mods run...I was busy goin' sideways. & scratchin' my haid between runs.

Posted by: nebreitling Oct 6 2006, 05:16 PM

i prefer the idea of of lightweight T4 contender... focus on unsprung weight and suspension (re)design. 200hp and a quick cable shifter. can you put the driver's seat in the middle of the car? frankly, i think an AX-only car could be pretty fragile -- i.e. if it doesn't break every once in a while, then it's too heavy.

In terms of aero, I believe that a lot could be learned from the Amod guys and from the F-SAE guys. The closer you can get to their paradigm, the quicker the car.

Posted by: Brad Roberts Oct 6 2006, 05:27 PM

I seriously thought about putting 4 lug stuff back on the car to lighten it up.

I'm also thinking about SUPER wafe thin fiberglass where it doesnt need to be strong (think 908's/flying lawn chairs)

I can easily assemble my own ERP style front end..

Who asked about center seat?? I was involved with a center seat 914 back in 1994..LOL One of the 914club members in Mckinnie Texas owns it or owned it.

Light.Driver.Gearing.Torque.Low Drag Down Force.

Tarett will sponsor me/give me the sways..


B

Posted by: Dan (Almaden Valley) Oct 6 2006, 05:44 PM

Tom's car is very old school. Just check the '80s style body work. The motor started as a 3.6, don't know if it still is or has been massaged to 3.8.
If he ran the tires he ran at Marina a couple weeks before parade, they were at least 2 years old. Give Tom any car and he will be fast. I have seen him take one lap in other folks cars and beat the owners best time by a bunch....
Car has not been freshened in many years. I don't think it is all that light either.
Tom is not a subtle driver, HP and brute strength.

This is an interesting topic.

Posted by: jhadler Oct 6 2006, 05:46 PM

Motor...I agree 200 hp is giving it up before the green flag even drops. 4 or 6 doesn't matter if you're giving up that much power off the bat.

Brakes... Don't need gonzo brakes, just make sure that you've got some good SC brakes in REALLY god shape with some good pads. If you want ot get tricky, make swiss cheese out of the rotors to drop some of that all important rotational mass. Here's a picture from a top flight SCCA EP car...


Suspension... Yeah, all the goodies. JRZ or Moton would be the way to go, but even custom double konis are better than nothin', and cheaper to boot.

Shed the weight, cage the chassis (to whatever limit the rules place on ya). At least 10" wheels with slicks, forget the cantilevers.

Hired Gun... Yeah, a left coaster SCCA top dog for sure. I'm thinking Greg Fordahl would be the best bet. Heck, I'd wager Greg and his FP car could give TomP a run for his money even with the weight dissadvantage. Apart from that, I'd look at maybe James Gunn-Wilkerson (he's local to you, La Jolla, you must have seen him around in the black GT3). He'd need some practice time in the car, and he'd probably want to run it Nationals if it were really good. For that matter, you've got Chris Cox in NorCal who's fast in anything he gets into, and he knows how to drive fast, powerful, slick shod cars at an autox. And you've got Jeff Reitmier in NorCal as well, always a good bet to win when he shows up.

-Josh2

Posted by: Dan (Almaden Valley) Oct 6 2006, 06:04 PM

I would put my money on Jeff Reitmeir since he has won multiple national SCCA titles in a 914, and can read a course very quickly.

JP. the car that almost beat Tom this year at parade is a Sacramento region member. His car is an early 911 chassis with all fiberglass 993 body work. A purpose built TT/race car. Car was previously owned and driven by Matt Lowrance of Sporthause (Reno) Car has a 3.8L motor. It is VERY strong. It wasn't a bad showing since the present owner (Glenn Brooksby) hasn't AXed much in several years. And I don't think he had ever AXed that particular car much if ever, before parade.

Posted by: kdfoust Oct 6 2006, 06:08 PM

Hey Brad:

I know a couple of SCCA nat champs and pro solo that have crossed over to PCA. One of them is used to putting brut power (Camero, Corvette, Turbo) to good use. The other takes an "under powered" (early 911) car and puts the smackdown on entire fields and looks completely calm doing it.

If this gets serious we can have a word with them to see if they're interested. They both might have their own ideas already though...

Later,
Kevin

Posted by: Brad Roberts Oct 6 2006, 06:12 PM

Josh,

I work with James Gunn Wilkerson down here quite a bit on setups. He also helped me understand the Boxsters. He used to run one.

The reason I bring all this up.. I'm finishing a 2316 Raby combo this weekend and the owner of the engine asked me about beating TomP. I thought about it for a moment and thought I would run it past the "group".

Whomever drives.. I'll be the tire warmer... LOL

Tom's car is OLD SCHOOL I love it!! I promise he will have trouble with the semi rough surface here at Qualcomm. You have to show up with something soft in the tire arena to play down here. It is much like Candlestick when it comes to surface erosion and the such.

They like long high speed area's with some smallish SCCA stuff thrown in near the finish to slow cars down.


B

Posted by: Brad Roberts Oct 6 2006, 06:17 PM

My money would be on Stacey Reitmer..LOL

Kevin,

we will chat the next time you are down. I'll try to put a plan together soon and see if I can drum up the funds to finish the car nicely. Right now it is a raggedy roller with 70% of what we need in place. The biggest hurdle is some of the fab work I need to do for the floors/shifter/seat mounting. Suspension I can handle and mounting of the body work. I cant paint.. so I need to round up a painter willing to make it look nice.

This car was destined to be a "914Club" AutoX car. Something we could let anyone drive on any given weekend. Open cockpit style.. Ginther windscreen. Luckily all the cage work is done. I'll have to add some smallish tubes for the aluminum floor section.


B

Posted by: Randal Oct 6 2006, 07:08 PM

What do you mean Brad, "200hp T4 "check"

"Might have to borrow...."

You might be earning your PHD in Cavalier here, but if anyone can pull it off it's probably you.

Posted by: J P Stein Oct 6 2006, 07:36 PM

Well, golly, Brad, guess who comes to check out the Parade course, has the local club run a serise of various cars around it... and gives advice.... since they have veto over the local club's layout it's wise to listen..... Not safe, too fast, yada.....Then makes a map to insure it's set up per the approved plan come Parade time.

When you figure that out, tell me about any advantage you have.

Posted by: john rogers Oct 6 2006, 08:00 PM

Hummm, who was that guy that won TTOD last time the parade was in San Diego in a 911 with a big motor? He was an SCCA champ too if I remember correctly, ran Goodyear canti-slicks, etc? The course at the "Q" will probably be a fast/horse power type of course and might even favor someone like James Gunn-Wilkinson in a prepared GT2 over a 914 or maybe the Fordhall's. If ANYONE is to get ready, they need to run with the SCCA from now on to get ready for the "3 runs per day" format instead of lots of laps to get ready!

Posted by: Randal Oct 6 2006, 08:10 PM

Probably Jim Hayes running a 911 with a Matt Lawrence motor. Very fast car that handles and he could drive.

He was also an SCCA champ.

I have all his wheels.

Posted by: jhadler Oct 6 2006, 09:24 PM

Stacey is one quick shoe herself, I wouldn't laugh too much...

Funny story though... Shortly after I bought my 914, I went to an SCCA autox school to try and get familiar with the car around the cones. Wound up with Michelle Reitmier as my instructor. Why not? She's a National Champ in a 914 as well...So, here I am, driving my newly acquired Porsche around as close to the limit as I can, and here's a georgous, talented, racecar driving, blonde sitting next to me shouting out "faster! drive faster!"...

-Josh2

Posted by: URY914 Oct 7 2006, 08:02 PM

I'll let you use my car. Do whatever you want with it. I'll stick it in a box and FedX it to you on Monday.

You could get your car to under 1500 pounds pretty easy.

Posted by: Rotten Robby Oct 8 2006, 01:24 AM

I know Tom is over 300HP and a joy to watch drive. The car is a handful on tight courses. He and Steve N duke it out quite regularly and even with his 130 or 140HP Steve takes his share of the cake.
Tom tells me he doesn't know too much about the cars build sheet so to speak. He bought it that way. I have heard that story before but he seems sincere about it. Sandy is no slouch in the car either.

Posted by: J P Stein Oct 8 2006, 08:16 AM

That's about the same as he told me, as I recall.
He said that these days the MFI is worth more than the whole car
I think he said the engine is an RSR motor and that it had been freshened a few years back.....not sure about that, I was havin' a tough week.

Steve is a real gud driver and I can see his car is damn well developed. On a tight course I can see him giving anyone fits. He's also gud on the first 3 runs.....which use as a benchmark. If you go back & look at results from the various regions, Provasi shows his ability there.

Posted by: Rotten Robby Oct 8 2006, 09:04 AM

It should be interesting. I already have my hotel room reserved and I am deciding which car to bring down. I just bought an '84 taildragger that looks showroom new in and out. 55K miles.

It isn't just tight courses that Steve gives fits on. Unless you really let the big motors use their legs he is still right there.

JP you remember last year when you came down for the Shriner's event? Steve beat all but one of the Corvettes and a couple of them were National Champions. Even then the guy only beat him by a couple hundredths. This was a pretty open course designed by SCCA guys who worship the Corvette and tolerate us others to fill their coffers...

Below is Steve's best time and here he is staged next to EJ Fontaine. This was a pretty open course and even EJ with his six couldn't catch Steve.


Attached thumbnail(s)

Posted by: grantsfo Oct 8 2006, 09:49 AM

Put a 200 HP T4 in Andrew B's Smurf car. He is capable of beating Tom.

Posted by: J P Stein Oct 8 2006, 11:07 AM

I assume you've found this stuff ain't as easy as it seems.
A car being "capable" and actually doing it are two different things.

Robby:
I remember being 2nd fastest 914 at the Shriners event. Steve kilt me.
That course was not a high speed course. The turns at this last Parade were faster than the longest straight at Mather.....top end of 3rd gear at the Parade.
Comparing the 2, Mather was tight. Not to denigrate Steve's efforts there, but he was way off Tom's pace. A 59 to a 54 IIRC. Steve made up for it by blowing us all into the weeds at the "After Parade AX".....a tight course....ORPCA style....short on cones but tricky. You'da liked it.

Posted by: Rotten Robby Oct 8 2006, 07:12 PM

I think I would have loved it... I once designed a course that used only enough cones to fit in the back and passenger side of my 240Z because the guy who was supposed to haul equipment flaked. It was GREAT!
Checking the results you were the second fastest teener. I didn't mean to imply EJ was faster I just used him as a reference as I have ridden in the car and know how fast it is. Yours I have only seen at the start finish...
A lot of these large event courses tend to be mini-grand prix courses. I guess they feel they need to soothe the 911 crowd or sumpin... That works to Tom P's advantage.
I know what you mean about Steve and the taste of weeds. After I put in times good enough to be 5th overall with the BB Racer/Submarine at its first autocross with me on those nasty old Kumhos that Jim had, Steve got in the car and with my fat ass in the P-Seat he put in a time a second faster than my best. Take away the passenger and that is about a two second improvement on my time in my own car when he had never driven it... I was in awe.

Posted by: grantsfo Oct 8 2006, 08:12 PM

Actually I find it easier than it seems most of the time. I'm always overwhelmed when I see all those cones. When I get out and start driving I somehow put everything together.

Andrew B has actually beaten Tom P' times on actual AX courses in Nor Cal. The Parade event was more like a short road course! So 200 HP would likely even playing field for posuer cross on a road course.

But come on JP, AX rates up there with amature bowling if you take it too seriously. Why anyone would want to build a PCA Parade winning car is sort of pointless to me. Yeah you can do it, but why?

Posted by: john rogers Oct 8 2006, 08:16 PM

At the 2000 parade in Sacramento one of the San Diego members spend huge amounts of time and money on things like big HP, close ratio gear box, GT limited slip, light weight and all. In the big run he actually had TTOD nailed but got a cone and it was said it was from some ground effects, not actually hitting it, BUT since they only had two or three workers for the whole, huge course, the cone counted! No TTOD. It is the driver.

Posted by: J P Stein Oct 8 2006, 09:05 PM

Look at the first 3 runs. IIRC, Provasi had everybody by 2 sec.

As for finding it easy. It is....right till ya get up into the top end of the field. If you can get within .5 sec of Andrew or Steve, then come back & tell me how easy it is.
Then go to a National Tour event & do it in 3 runs.

Serious? The guy that bought the Wayne Baker car ...Mistak(sp?)... laid out a Parade course on his own dime ...SD Parade I think, set up his trans for a top speed of over 130 mph and appropioate gears below and still didn't win. He took out the 4 & dropped in a 3.6L. I think that is what John is talking about.

Top tier SCCA guys are as serious as a heart attack.... that's why they are top tier. Top line Pro Solo make gud money at it.

Why?....why not?....you got sumthin' better to do?

Posted by: Chris Hamilton Oct 8 2006, 09:37 PM

We may head down if we have the time, and if we are allowed the nitrous bottle.

Posted by: nebreitling Oct 8 2006, 09:42 PM

really? last time i looked, it seemed that at best they would break even on their travel costs and get a set of tires.

Posted by: grantsfo Oct 8 2006, 10:03 PM

Amature bowling is tough to break into top ranks too! But Pro Tour bowlers make more than Pro Solo drivers.

Posted by: Dan (Almaden Valley) Oct 8 2006, 10:05 PM

Are you running the nitrous again?

Posted by: jhadler Oct 8 2006, 10:09 PM

Most folks can do okay if they win here and there. A few though, can do very well on the Solo Tour. Go back a number of years, and look at Mark Daddio... He more than paid for the car he won with, in one year....

And now look at the winnings he got from the Revitup tour...

No, not everyone can clean up like that, but it _can_ happen.

-Josh2

Posted by: Rotten Robby Oct 8 2006, 10:18 PM

Yes but only if you talk nice to Dave Hunt and only if you need dental work...

Posted by: Dan (Almaden Valley) Oct 8 2006, 10:26 PM

they could ask me for some but I doubt I would be inclined.
Nitrous in a Porsche just doesn't seem quite right, somehow.

Posted by: DNHunt Oct 9 2006, 08:02 AM

I haven't been able to figure out how to get the face mask over the throttle body. You must have some ideas Rob.

Dave

Posted by: Brett W Oct 9 2006, 08:24 AM

Brad you should address driver/control issues. Making a 914 shift faster and making the driver more comfortable in the cockpit can go a long way towards making a car super fast. If your driver can climb in and think about nothing else but driving, not how the seat isn't straight, or the pedals to far away, etc, you can be faster than the competition.

Posted by: 914forme Oct 9 2006, 10:42 AM

Shifting still bugs me at times. 2 -3 is easy, but if you have to goto 4th which seems to happen at Corvette and PCA events at least once. In the heat of battle I have blow a shift. Which ruins a good run fast.

But Brad that could be solved with a DSG style tranny, or a tip. I would love a sequental. Clutch off the line and tap up and down for the rest. 914 shifter cart!!!!

Posted by: URY914 Oct 9 2006, 11:09 AM

I lose time with my 1st to 2nd shift. I have to "place" it 2nd not shift it into 2nd. One day I'm going to start in 2nd to see what happens.

Posted by: 914forme Oct 9 2006, 11:31 AM

Lets See Engine Torque / minimal weight = second gear Should be the 914 law of relativity. I launch with second gear on my Jetta at the auto-x

Posted by: Brad Roberts Oct 9 2006, 11:44 AM

I have no problems with 3 runs. I grew up with 3 runs. The only time you need "more" runs is if the course is 1.3 miles long.. SD REGION PCA...LOL

Grant,

I need to do something with the car. If the car (we know it requires driver also) wins Parade.. I have a better chance of selling it later on.

You would be amazed at how little is in SteveN's 914 when it comes to suspension/setup. Dont forget: this is one of the old Reitmer's cars that Steve bought and cleaned up. It used to be white. I spent a lot of time under/around it. It is VERY old school. Had I stayed up north we would have updated some of the suspension goodies. He is on custom hand cut bushings and the such.. he could be even faster...



B

Posted by: grantsfo Oct 9 2006, 01:33 PM

I agree too. The difference between my wife's new Mazda MX-5 and 914 is like night and day in AX events. I dont even have to worry about shifting the MX-5 it just happens. I have developed a bad habit of shifting early in the 914 just to make sure I'm in gear when I need power. Two big things I would change for AX 914 - easier shifting and power steering. While I'm certainly strong enouugh to turn the 914 too much effort has to be applied in some tough corners and transitions.

Posted by: grantsfo Oct 9 2006, 01:56 PM

I haven't seen too many sophisticated dedicated 914 AX cars in all my years of being around them. Dwight Mitchell's very successful AX car was fairly straight forward too. The basic components I have always seen as being effective are good focus on weight reduction, short gears, LSD, responsive high out put T4, sticky race slicks, well buttoned down suspension.

I'd say Randals car is likely going to be a contender if the motor puts out anything over 160 HP. I dont think his car is overly sophisticated either. And then there is Smurf!

If Steve's car has has one major issue it has been power. That engine has always sounded sick to me at upper RPM range. Dont get me wrong its a fast car, but if youre going against a 3.8 liter dragster on an open course that coughing and wheezing T4 engine of his isnt going to overcome the huge power gap regardless of his stellar driving.

If you want your car to win Parade go hire a real good SCCA driver and let them drive the car a season. probably cheaper than spending a bunch on sophisticated stuff. Actually get Nathan to drive the car when he isnt driving the wheels off of shifter karts.

Posted by: Rotten Robby Oct 9 2006, 02:20 PM

My face masks are better than yours... I think they would cover a TB! Yours only cover the nose. I remember during some dental work having my dentist pull the headphones off and ask me how I was. I said "fine... How are you?" I was so happy. Both he and the hygienist about rolled on the floor. Hard to believe such a happy gas can make a car so angry...

Posted by: Rotten Robby Oct 9 2006, 02:25 PM

First time I ever saw Brad he was under Steves car at Stockton with strings setting up the suspension. I thought he was Steve until he said "no... I'm not Steve". Scary to think he could be even faster.

Posted by: Rotten Robby Oct 9 2006, 02:28 PM

Grant, I think Steve has taken care of that problem at high RPM. I recall that too but something has changed this year and the car is evil fast now.

Posted by: Brad Roberts Oct 9 2006, 03:01 PM

One of the last times I touched SteveN's car it had the coil wires being sucked into the fan..lol We secured them that day, but it doesnt mean it didnt cause an ignition issue that continued afterwards.

Great thread everyone.

Thank you for your time.

I'm going to start yanking the suspension out and getting it ready. I'll also measure for the tubing I need for the alum floors.

FYI: on gearing.. I'll be using a 9146 input shaft with the taller second gear. You can "and I highly suggest" launching the cars in second with the H pattern ready to go.

Damn.. what about a true 901 4 speed box with proper gears?? Ring gear flipped for mid-engine use?


B

Posted by: J P Stein Oct 9 2006, 06:38 PM

I use a 'B' first gear (a C would be better). Very useful for the tight sections near the starts we often have....good to around 43/44 mph @7100.
2nd gear launches are too hard on the clutch, but feel free ....I use a GA 2nd (63/64 @ 7100).A good launch can get you a tenth or 2.

Since you seem to have all the answers, I'll not intrude on some of your other good ideas.

Posted by: Brad Roberts Oct 9 2006, 06:41 PM

Yeah.. I hear you OLD MAN..

I am NOT an AutoX fan.. but I do think I can build a better car!!! ..lol



B

Posted by: Chris Hamilton Oct 9 2006, 07:31 PM

No, it is still not allowed by the rules. We have a very nice wet shot nitrous system ready to use which will give us another 30-40% more power, but it is specifically banned. We've been told we have to run in "fun" if we want to use nitrous. The same class people with subaru motors and people driving S2000s run in.

The system we have is perfectly safe for the car ( as well as people around/in it ), and we feel it's only fair that we get to use it when we're running against people with double our displacement and turbos to boot.

Posted by: Brad Roberts Oct 9 2006, 07:43 PM

Why not do a single turbo?

I'd be worried about the bottle coming loose in a corner.

I'd also be concerned about the instant on power. I dont personally beleive it would be consistant.


B << drage raced a Mustang in Pro 5.0 with a 3 stage setup WAY back.

Posted by: J P Stein Oct 9 2006, 08:00 PM

Several years ago a couple guys decided to add a little "pop"
(benzine, IIRC) to their Cheetah back when Bayview raceway was open.
It blew off both heads while they were hunkered over the SBC "tuning".
Kilt em' both.
Nitrous opens a can of worms. Get a motor.

Posted by: jhadler Oct 9 2006, 09:19 PM

If you're going to forced aspiration, I'd go with a supercharger, turbo lag can suck in an autox. By the time the boost comes on, you're on the brakes again.

-Josh2

Posted by: Randal Oct 9 2006, 09:20 PM

Ok then, how about you putting in 10 sacks of cement to equalize your weight advantage.

Posted by: Chris Hamilton Oct 10 2006, 06:48 PM

I think thats a load of bullshit, in addition to irrelevant. N2O is an oxidiser, not an explosive gas. If I blow nitrous oxide onto a flame, the flame will go out. It is this level of general misunderstanding about these matters which is keeping us from being able to run it in the porsche club.

As for your "get a motor" comment, we're trying to run our car on a budget, it would cost $5000 to build a better motor, and a bottle of N2O is $20.

It opens a can of worms, but not for us, but for people like Jerry Woods.

Posted by: Dan (Almaden Valley) Oct 10 2006, 06:50 PM

Posted by: 914forme Oct 10 2006, 06:58 PM

A turbo sized correctly will not cause a lag issue. But then I run a turbo diesel and make 25 pounds of boast at 1900 rpm... On a gas engine it is a little harder, but can be done. If you need top end power then you can go with a sequential setup. Is NOS allowed, I know SCCA has it banned for Solo, and GRM also has it banned from their 2006 auto-x challenge, per SCCA Rules.

Posted by: URY914 Oct 10 2006, 07:02 PM

How much pressure is in a NOS bottle?

Posted by: J P Stein Oct 10 2006, 08:56 PM

Sure, it keeps you from running it at SCCA, also.
If you can run Oxygen bearing fuels, then others can run Nitromethane, others can them fool around with stuff like Benzine. Does that make the link for you?
It ain't all about you....so quit whinnin'.

Posted by: Dan (Almaden Valley) Oct 10 2006, 09:05 PM

The whole point with N2O is that it promotes combustion....by adding oxygen.
The same thing it does in a combustion situation it does in any fire.
An oxygen rich environment makes everything it comes into contact with more combustible....
How do you think the Apollo astronauts died in the capsule during training. One spark in an oxygen rich(100%) environment.

Nitrous itself is not combustible but it promotes combustion by adding oxygen to the mix. Injecting compressed O2 into the intake would do the same thing but you would have to lug around a huge very heavy cylinder to get the same effect.

Yes it is a widely used HP enhancer....in drag racing and the "ricer" crowd.

Currnently do you guys really need it.

If you guys really want it, why didn't you propose a rules change?

Here is the current wording...
item #49) Select this option if the engine has any of the following:

The engine has any type of fluid or gas injection other than gasoline.

The engine has any type of total loss injection device used to cool the engine intake system.

The engine has any type of fuel mixing system used to add alternative fuel to the gasoline.

Posted by: Dan (Almaden Valley) Oct 10 2006, 09:27 PM

and there you go..

This has been my argument on N2O. It opens the door to Nitro and an Alcohol motor.

SCCA must have a pretty good reason they don't allow it.

Posted by: john rogers Oct 10 2006, 09:52 PM

Since there seems to be a lot of planning going on here, why noy a turbo diesel??!!

Posted by: 914forme Oct 11 2006, 05:31 AM

Porsche does not build a turbo diesel at least not yet. PCA requires a Porsche engine, now I suppose you could take one out of the tractor line, and turbo it. But they where never know for Power even in the day when they where produced.

Posted by: Chris Hamilton Oct 11 2006, 09:37 AM

We have a button we use on straights. We have plenty of power for the low speed sections, but when it gets to 3rd gear, it's hard to compete with people running 2 more liters than us.

The power increase is somewhere between 20 and 30 percent.



Something like 3,000 psi.



I don't think so. There could be a provision specifically for adding N2O to the engine. We would accept 500 mod points for it, we're already in the unlimited class.

I'm also curious as to your speak of "Benzine", just to make sure, you're not thinking of "Benzene"?

Posted by: grantsfo Oct 11 2006, 09:53 AM

SCCA AX rules are as arbitrary as an impluse shopper in 7-11.

Posted by: Brad Roberts Oct 11 2006, 10:01 AM

Damn it.. Grant making me laugh again!!

They dont allow Nitrous because they cant regulate it. I can run a 65second run and not like the outcome.. change the Nitrous jet and run 2 seconds faster next time out. It would be impossible to regulate.

As far as a 3000 psi bottle coming loose ... I'm not interested in "seeing" if it will be ok?? I have no issues with my fire extinguisher at 20lbs going off in the car if it comes loose. Drag cars load that bottle in two ways: acceleration and decel. A AutoX car would load it 4 ways.



B

Posted by: URY914 Oct 11 2006, 10:09 AM

I agree, that is the issue with NOS. Too much risk and can't regulate. Simple.

Posted by: 914forme Oct 11 2006, 10:22 AM

A Diesel Auto-x car can be done and is done in SCCA and NASA, kinda funny NASA don't have a base class for a TDI so you start with the gas boys. My local NASA group classed my car by asking whats the displacement. I say 1.9L , they say TTH I say cool and walk away. :-) 6 seconds faster than the Ford Focus Boys!!! It works extremly well on a tight course, but if you have one to streach your legs on a diesel will not be your choice unless you can pickup a new Audi R10 drivetrain, then lets talk, about bending the rules a little to get sister engines into PCA. ;-)

Posted by: Rough_Rider Oct 11 2006, 04:02 PM

Brad i know this is a PCA beater thread (Sorry that sounds bad) but whatever

This is the kind of competition thats at national level.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Mazda-RX7-Race-Car-Carbon-Fiber-Fast-Turbo_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ98064QQihZ017QQitemZ270036672682QQrdZ1

600hp & 1900pounds.

Posted by: drgchapman Oct 11 2006, 04:24 PM

Way out of most people's league.
That is a totally hand built car, WOW what a ride.

Posted by: Brad Roberts Oct 11 2006, 04:52 PM

I know. We run against him here in SD (DUH!) He gets beat by a Corvette (driven by a lady) I dont actually think I have seen it do much of anything on our courses. His girlfriend typically drives it as the tire warmer.

I refused multiple times to "race" Spec Miata's.. I'm trying to stay away from running anything "Rice" related



B

Posted by: jhadler Oct 11 2006, 05:09 PM

Brad, what's with the 'tude about Spec Miatas? It's a great series, low cost, great competition, and they handle really really well... And bullet-proof to boot!

No, they aren't _fast_, but they sure are fun...

-Josh2

Posted by: Brad Roberts Oct 11 2006, 05:16 PM

I'm over 6'1 and 200#'s. Every person who wanted to me to run enduro's with them or race with them was 5'5 and 160#'s..LOL

There is a reason why I jumped on the board of directors for the Boxster series. I knew the Pro7 series and the Spec Miata series were HIGHLY successful. I'm just a Porsche guy. I spent some time around them.

B

Posted by: grantsfo Oct 11 2006, 06:01 PM

I bet Spec Solstice will be here in a couple years. Now that would be an interesting series. With the new GXP turbo Solstice coming out I think prices of base model should come down. Wont be long before you can pickup a $12 to $15K used Solstice.

Posted by: Chris Hamilton Oct 12 2006, 08:39 AM

Your first point seems to sound like it is banned because it makes cars perform better, which is the entire point.

Coming loose? Have you seen our mounting hardware? There is no chance of it coming loose, even if we managed to somehow find something to hit out on the course.

However if a bottle of nonexplosive gas mounted to the floor in two places is too dangerous for us to run at the autocross, we'll just have to live with that.

Posted by: Randal Oct 12 2006, 10:14 AM

So if the top gets knocked off a 3000psi Nitrous bottle how long does it take to purge and give me some idea of the force it would have?

I think my nitrogen bottle that is clamped to my trailer is also 3000psi and it is a big bottle. I'm sure that huge heavy metal screw on cap isn't there for fun, but just what would happen if it was knocked off and are the metal clamps that I bought at the welding supply (welded to my trailer) good enough to hold it down?

Posted by: URY914 Oct 12 2006, 11:08 AM

I've seen a safety film of a welding bottle moving across the ground like a missile and hitting a pickup truck.

Also you may know how to secure that bottle to the car but what about the next guy or the tech guy that misses the loose bolts? Too much risk.

Can we get back on topic now???

Posted by: jhadler Oct 12 2006, 12:33 PM

Regarding NO2 bottles and SCCA events...

Having been a member of the National Solo Safety Committee for the last 7 years, this topic has come up a number of times. Now that I'm no longer on the SSC, I think I can talk about this without needing a disclaimer or anything... Okay... disclaimer: I'm not a member of the SSC, nor do I speak on behalf of the SCCA or any officials of the SCCA.

There a couple reasons for dissalowing NO2 at SCCA events.

The main reason is safety. It -is- a pressurised gas cylinder, and it -does- present a hazard as such. Have you seen what a 2000 psi bottle can do if the valve is sheared off? I have, it becomes an unguided missile...Yes, mounting hardware, heaters, check valves and all that can be regulated, but who is going to check all that? Tech inspectors at Solo events already have enough to think about, and for the 0.1% of drivers that show up with NO2, it's not worth the overhead to train the inspectors to make sure the system is safely designed and installed.

You've probably seen the pictures from the moron who installed a NOS system in his car with the heater blanket wired to a permantently hot circuit and promptly blew the rear end off his car while it sat in his garage (along with the garage door). This is obvioulsy a worst case scenario, but if an incident like that were to occur at an event, it becomes VERY visible, and VERY sticky (from a litigation standpoint). It's one thing if some unfortunate sap leaves a gas can in the trunk of their car and then goes out on course, breaks open the gas can, and combusts their car (saw it happen). It's another thing if a gas cylinder explodes in grid or in the paddock around people.

On course safety is, of course, the main issue. And most people who run NOS systems, run them for the Friday night drags. They aren't accustomed to the kick in the rear it can provide on a course where you actually have to TURN. This is a big concern for the safety of course workers. You may know what the NOS is capable of doing, and can manage it. But I would wager that >90% of people who run NO2 systems would be quite unprepared for its effects on an an autox course, especially if they trigger it in a turn and can't compensate. Course workers can run, but not as fast as a spinning camaro...

The risk to benefit ratio is too extreme. I don't think the SCCA is worried about dissenfranchising less than 1 out of 1000 potential drivers for the increased level of risk that NO2 systems present.

In my home region (probably one of the ten largest in the country), we have had -1- person in the last 8 years show up with Nitrous. He was asked to go home and come back without the bottle. He did so, and everyone was satisfied.

Secondly, the manditory rules dissalow any oxygen bearing additives that are not available from pump gas. This includes alchohol, nitrous, and other more extreme additives. All of these are power adders in one way or another, and are not legal in any class. If you allow NO2, do you then allow Nitromethane? Alchohol? Where do you draw the line then? The line is drawn at pump gas.

Okay, I've rambled on... Let's get this thread back on track and figure out how Brad is gonna build a TTOD winner at the parade...

Gotta add this (regarding the building of the super teener). Aero.

Nationals this year was the year of the wing. Door slammers at atuoxes are getting fast enough now that wings on full bodied cars actually have an impact. So start looking into some good aero for the car as well.

I love it when aero factors in. Now, when you get loose in a turn, you weren't too fast... you were too slow!!

-Josh2

Posted by: URY914 Oct 12 2006, 12:43 PM

See, I told you...

Posted by: URY914 Oct 12 2006, 12:44 PM

Alrighty than...what about this belly pan, Brad?

Details, I need details.

Posted by: 914forme Oct 12 2006, 12:58 PM

but I need the details of how it will produce downforce.

Can you run a none porsche engine to run your fans for the sucker car. I would hate to waste the HP from an engine designed to push my car, but to run another engine for the fans to suck it down to the ground. YOu have to run full body skirting, but you can ditch engine cooling fan at that point also. You would have to regulate air flow through the engine compartment and pickup intake air else where. Be no fun to have your sucker suck your intake dry.

Has PCA banned the sucker cars yet? I can't remember, its been a while since I read the rules for the M-classes.

Posted by: jhadler Oct 12 2006, 12:59 PM

I'm not famililar enough with the PCA rules, but if you're going for the all out unlimited TTOD car, can you make a sucker-car? Super low side skitrts and a secondary motor driving a sucker fan???

-Josh2

Posted by: URY914 Oct 12 2006, 01:57 PM

Get real: one car, one engine.

The belly pan doesn't produce downforce, it reduces drag.

Posted by: URY914 Oct 12 2006, 02:00 PM

Doesn't matter, rules don't allow it and the rules aren't changing anytime soon. Move on...

Posted by: 914forme Oct 12 2006, 03:23 PM

Nothing in the rules says you cant run multipule engines and trannies for that matter. AWD 2 engine 914 with 2 trannies, variable syncro throttle would allow for more power up front or to the rear depending on the turn, all controlled by computer and traction controll, etc........ Yeah you carry a 400 lbs weigh penality, but I just built you a hook up monster that would still be in hte ball park of a stockish 914-4 weight wise and over 400 hp to ~1100 depending on engines and tune. Being light is one thing a drag race through the cones like a PCA National requires some HP Paul your cage is easy to rattle today whats up

Yes the pan can be built to reduce drag, or if designed correctly can make downforce. If you run a spoiler and skirts How much air are you letting under there? My thoughts areo wise is to trim anything that disturbes the air flow, so its got to be smooth. The side turn signal pods should go the hood should be lowered, the windscreen racked, best would be just a small single screen in hte center. Section the front bumper, or don't even have one. ditch the targa bar, run a hop for roll over, skirt the rear wheels, Moon disc the fronts, it would look like a Bonnivlle salt racer for the cones. And a Huge Wing that would produce down force in a 1 knot breeze

New front suspesion, and rear suspension, ah heck just forget about the 914 chassis, tube it add a few piece that make it a 914.

Now all you need is a 90 pound horse jocky that can drive!!! Sorry but a 6'2" 250lbs man will not cut it except to be a tire warmer. Sorry Brad, I was talking about my self, your 6'1"

Posted by: otto Oct 12 2006, 04:28 PM

Why not have me show up with my little white car. It is about time for him to get put down a few notches.

Posted by: Aaron Cox Oct 12 2006, 04:35 PM

sounds like you found at least a driver - if not a car

Posted by: otto Oct 12 2006, 05:23 PM

The little white 914/6, 1800 lbs., 385 hp on Jerry Wood's dyno, twin plug, MOTEC, crazy gray haired old guy driving it.

Posted by: grantsfo Oct 12 2006, 05:27 PM

I'd go to the Parade if that happened!

Posted by: 914forme Oct 12 2006, 05:33 PM

You need a Co-driver to increase the odds of pulling it off. Plus woud it not be nicer to drop him a few extra spots?

So Otto brings the little white car Brad builds another, and Paul comes over from the Tampa to put the smack down.You guys could in theory drop him to 7th place overall.

Maybe we needed to make this a little more

Posted by: URY914 Oct 12 2006, 08:51 PM

I'm in but I'd have to re-join PCA. I just dropped it a few months ago.

I'm going to run B Mod in the Florida State A/X Championship next month.

Posted by: jhadler Oct 12 2006, 10:09 PM

B-Mod?? I thought B-Mod was for formula cars, not modded door slammers. I'm not to sure of the rules in the class, but B-Mod doesn't seem right to me... A-Mod of course, anything goes...

-Josh2

Posted by: ChrisNPDrider Oct 12 2006, 10:28 PM

Ummm - is it too early to start a betting pool? Yes it is, but this is getting interesting.
The thing I like about AX most is that a rusty 914 can beat a 928 with 4x the HP. It's about the driver as much as the car.Let me just be the first to say

Posted by: grantsfo Oct 12 2006, 11:21 PM

A Toyota Echo could beat a 928 in an AX.

Posted by: URY914 Oct 13 2006, 07:04 AM

Josh,

I've got fiberglass doors which makes me a 'sports racer'. See below right out of the SCCA rule book. BM is for cars with fenders.

18.2 SPORTS RACING CARS
Non-production cars and production-based dune buggies are
referred to as Sports Racing cars and are assigned to B Modified.
EXCEPTION: Production-based cars prepared in excess of the
Modified Production-based Car rules (18.1) are eligible to participate
as Sports Racers when prepared to the appropriate GCR/SRCS. B
Modified cars must comply to the current year GCR (except as
noted by the SR, including Appendix A) and the competitor must
indicate on his entry form to which set of specifications the vehicle
was prepared. C Modified cars must conform to the current GCR,
except as noted herein and in Appendix A. The competitor must
have the referenced GCR in his possession during the event.

Posted by: jhadler Oct 13 2006, 10:27 AM

Oh cool!!! I wasn't aware of that. I'm pretty up on the Stock/Street rules, but not the Prep and Mod rules.

Go get 'em!!!!

So I guess XP cars would qualify for BM as well then...

-Josh2

Posted by: 914forme Oct 13 2006, 11:02 PM

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1973-Porsche-KMW-SP30-Can-Am-Racecar_W0QQitemZ220034678426QQihZ012QQcategoryZ98064QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Posted by: J P Stein Oct 14 2006, 09:32 AM

The simple answer to this question is "You don't"

Now, John in his "little white car" has a shot......if he'll take the time to sharpen up his AX skills....or hire "the pro from Dover".

As always, just my opinion and it's mine.....but I gots 50 bux that says I'm right

Posted by: drgchapman Oct 14 2006, 09:41 AM

I gots $50.00 says Tom P does it again.

Dude is good.

He also has a big wing.

Posted by: URY914 Oct 14 2006, 05:41 PM

911 guys have small wings.

Posted by: J P Stein Oct 14 2006, 06:41 PM

Yes, this is true.........but Tom has a BIG wing and a 914.
I'd scan in a pic of his car from the latest Pano, but I took the rag to work.

Posted by: grantsfo Oct 14 2006, 07:11 PM

Posted by: Rotten Robby Oct 14 2006, 07:21 PM

Grant, I remember this I think... Marina? Tom had to come to almost a complete stop at the end before the timer to get around the corner and still was fast... Sandy did have to stop and back up at least once to get through without cone death.

Posted by: nebreitling Oct 14 2006, 07:29 PM

i'd love to see that car rip up the hoopa hillclimb.

Posted by: J P Stein Oct 14 2006, 09:17 PM

Hummm........this gets me to thinkin'.

There's a shop in Portland that does a lot of biddness with the sprint car guys. I gots just the spot for one bout twice that size.

Me thinks my windshield is toast. Where's that effin' rule book?....this could get ugly

Posted by: URY914 Oct 14 2006, 09:32 PM

I got a friend that owns a winged sprinter. Don't thank I haven't asked him about gettin' me a wing.

Posted by: J P Stein Oct 15 2006, 10:26 AM

Yes, but your car is already ugly......no offense

Posted by: 914forme Oct 15 2006, 01:20 PM

Would an Outlaw Style Sprint Car Wing work better?????? they could be placed closer to the center and provide downforce to the front and rear at teh same time it is all about balance. Just add an upright to the other side. And some extra downforce Out front. Them are big wings boys, make Provisi look like a balsa wood aeroplane toy.



Attached image(s)

Posted by: Rough_Rider Oct 15 2006, 10:34 PM

Tom's wing isn't likely to add any downforce untill above at least 50mph, it just doesn't generate enough low pressure at low speeds. See formula FSAE cars for low speed wings. Double upto quadruple deck monsters, they stall out above 80mph.
The spoiler on the other hand....

Posted by: Randal Oct 16 2006, 09:48 AM

Posted by: grantsfo Oct 16 2006, 12:10 PM

So could you throw a T4 engine and 901 tranny in one of these and call it a Porsche under PCA rules?

Posted by: 914forme Oct 16 2006, 02:20 PM

PCA PCRs Car Definitions.

"THOROUGHBRED RACERS

A thoroughbred racer is a factory-built race
car based on a non-production automobile
platform, designed for and fitted with a
Porsche engine. The following are
examples of thoroughbred racers: Glockler-
Porsche, 550, 718 coupe and spyder, F1, F2,
Elva Porsche/4 & /6, Abarth Carrera, 904/4
& 904/6, 906, 907, 908, 910, 917, 936, 956,
962, GT1. be automobiles that would compete in the
current Modified Category autocross
structure. "

In case you are wondering the only things you are not allowed to do in a Modified class is, Factory Option X53 (Cayenne Power), and
Nitrogen Bearing Fuels. So sorry no Nitro Methane for you guys.

So any homebuilt car is not allowed, that rules out the FSAE crowd, and this A Mod that runs in our area.

Did get to see Derek Bell run a 936 through the cones in Boston, he was fast for seeing the course for 3 seconds on a piece of paper. Matter of fact he was smoking fast!!!!!


Attached image(s)

Posted by: Brad Roberts Oct 16 2006, 03:25 PM

It would be much cheaper for me to pay Otto's entry fee..LOL

We will see.

It would be fun to drag down all the big guns.

Maybe we can help Paul offset his fuel costs for getting here and back to FL (the 914Club)


B

Posted by: URY914 Oct 16 2006, 07:05 PM

Now there's a GREAT idea!! I bet I could stay at Club member's houses all the way there. I'm showng this to my wife (never too early to ask)...

Posted by: 914forme Oct 17 2006, 10:06 AM

Yeah I would let you stay Only adds a few hundred miles onto trip.

Posted by: Racer Oct 17 2006, 07:55 PM

Um.. it might be easier just to make sure Tom's (and his wife's) "application" gets lost in the mail

Posted by: AndrewBlyholder Oct 18 2006, 10:37 AM

[quote name='grantsfo' date='Oct 8 2006, 07:12 PM' post='790557']
[quote name='J P Stein' post='790269' date='Oct 8 2006, 10:07 AM']


Andrew B has actually beaten Tom P' times on actual AX courses in Nor Cal. The Parade event was more like a short road course! So 200 HP would likely even playing field for posuer cross on a road course.

[/quote]

Thank you, Grant.

I hate to talk smack in such a public forum, but I think the Hamilton Engineering (please don't call it Smurf!) Team isn't getting it due. Since we moved up from Kuhmos to race slicks, I don't think we've lost to Steve N. , and we've beaten both Tom P. and Jeff R. straight up. We don't worry much about making her pretty, but the blue car has taken pretty much anything that's been thrown at it.

Andrew

Posted by: Brad Roberts Oct 18 2006, 10:42 AM

This course will be similar to what was seen at Portland. Typical Qualcommapart events are 1.3 miles. They build a nice balanced track (fast and technical) but HP typically wins.

Can you guy's get down here for ONE event before Parade to see what you are in for?

What would it take to get the truck/trailer/car 2-3 people down here? Moneywise?

I know you can do it, but I dont see much travel with your group (at least I didnt when I was up north)


B

Posted by: AndrewBlyholder Oct 18 2006, 06:03 PM

Well, you're right, we haven't been travelling much. I'm in the middle of getting a new garage built, and due to budget issues, we'll be doing most of the work ourselves, so I've been keeping my racing activites to a minimum.

"Garage" understates the project a bit. It's a two-car sized garage/workshop area for me and a studio area for my wife's jewerly/craft hobbies. 850 sq.ft., radiant heated slab, bathroom, lots of windows for good daylighting, lift for me, etc. Our contractor will hopefully pour the slab next Monday, and then we'll take it over to start framing.

What events would be a good warm up for Parade, and when's Parade? (I've been a PCA member for over 20 years now and never been to a Parade. I'd been thinking that the San Diego one might be a good oppurtunity to finally go to one.)

I have in-laws in Carlsbad, so accommodations in the area are easy. Biggest help would be the loan of a more fuel efficient tow vehicle to get down there. My Ranchero only gets 13 mpg, and I think Lee truck isn't any better.

Andrew

Posted by: 914forme Oct 18 2006, 06:19 PM

Out of everything on the list this was the best item you could have done.
I my heated floors.

Pickup a newer GM V8 5.0L 30?, with EFI, change the tranny to a 700R4 or newer, and step up the rear end. Drop them in. It will easily pull the 914 on a steel trailer, and still drop about 19 mpg. With a camper on the back of mine, my inlaws got 16 pulling through the mountains. My wife gets 23 on her commute in it.

Posted by: Brad Roberts Oct 18 2006, 07:14 PM

Andrew,

Rent a truck or an RV.

Carlsbad would be a "trip": running back and forth to the event area. It is about 35min. one way without traffic (which doesnt happen..lol)

We can get you a truck. Randal probably still has one of his 2-3...

I know my friend Jason has two late model Suburbans in San Jose (914 guy)


Damn. I can think of 4-5 914's from SF bay area that should come down..

Paul..

We will start a fund raiser to get you here if you can get the time off and permission from wifey. You have done a lot for this club. I think it would be cool to sponsor a few people to attend this event and represent the club.


B

Posted by: URY914 Oct 18 2006, 07:51 PM

Hell ya, I'll do it! I've already spoken to the wife and she says go for it.
Schedule the WCC around that time and I'll stay for that too.

Thanks Brad.

Paul

Posted by: grantsfo Oct 18 2006, 08:34 PM

If my budget holds out I should have 914 that likely wont be a TTOD car, but it will be nipping everyone's heels. I will plan to go to the Parade next year just for giggles. Given the population of fast 914's in California we have to make a good showing. We need to get Randal in his car to the event too. ..Maybe Bill as co-driver?

I'd be up for co-driver (Nathan?) in my car if somone could help me figure out how to make an adjustable seat that sits on the floor or maybe I can find a fast 6'3" driver.

Posted by: URY914 Oct 19 2006, 07:59 AM

I'm 6'3"

Posted by: carr914 Oct 19 2006, 08:23 AM

Paul, Does this mean your rejoining PCA?

T.C.

Posted by: 914forme Oct 19 2006, 09:09 AM

I'm 6'3"

But I bring rain to California each time I visit. Oh wait that is just Northern Cali, when I was in SD, it was nice and sunny.

Now fast No 914s ever show up in these parts anymore, I can't compare apples to apples but I do pound on the 911 boys that show up and run in my class.

Other Option get a shorter guy and toss them on the rack, and stretch them out

Don't forget about the Ladies classes. You all need to start training some faster shoe ladies. I can't even get my wife to auto-x, my daughter could but she would be 14 then, PCA would frown on that.

Would I be sent to jail for getting her a fake drivers license so she could auto-x??????

Posted by: URY914 Oct 19 2006, 01:52 PM

I know, right after if quit the club, I start planning at trip to Parade.

Just my luck they won't take me back...

Posted by: AndrewBlyholder Oct 19 2006, 03:27 PM

Brad,

Ok, I have the dates on my calendar (July 1-5.) I'll talk to Randall about maybe borrowing a truck to tow with.

Stephen,

I've spent my entire grease monkey life so far working outside, in the driveway, in the dark, in the rain. Having a heated, lit, clean place to work will be sooooo nice! Attached is an elevation of the design.

Andrew



Attached thumbnail(s)

Posted by: 914forme Oct 19 2006, 03:35 PM

Posted by: nine14cats Oct 19 2006, 03:38 PM

Andrew,

That looks great! It will be very nice working inside after all those years outside!

Good luck with the build!

Bill P.

Posted by: nine14cats Oct 19 2006, 03:40 PM

BPR is entertaining running 3 cars at Parade. The Raby powered car (Randal), Fritz (Bill), and the Spec Boxster (Doris). The only issue will be all the gas costs for the tow vehicles. We have two vehicles. We will need three.

Bill P.

Posted by: Randal Oct 19 2006, 03:55 PM

We need a double trailer.

Posted by: grantsfo Oct 19 2006, 04:18 PM

Or just get one of these and haul a trailer behind it.

Posted by: J P Stein Oct 19 2006, 04:45 PM

Bill:
You *need* tiar warmers, ie, second drivers.

Posted by: Randal Oct 19 2006, 05:31 PM

If we could find a good reliable one, like what you showed that would be cool.

An alternative is to use the turbo diesel to tow a double car (flat) trailer ($4-5K) or find a used stacker, the latter being pretty pricy.

Also the stacker trailers are really high, so mileage would be toast.

Wish they did an open stacker trailer. That would use less diesel than the tall enclosed stackers and of course a lot less weight.

Enclosed trailers are better for security.

Options, Options, Options

Posted by: Britain Smith Oct 23 2006, 10:27 AM

FYI, I am trying to talk JP in attending the San Diego Parade, or at least have his car attend parade. I have even offered to trailer the car down. My wife is on board for the visit to the beach. After our poor outing due to tire issues, the Parade up here was just no fun. Just have to wait on the decision from the man...and I am in.

-Britain

Posted by: Britain Smith Oct 23 2006, 11:38 AM

I just read this one the 2007 Parade Website, it is going to be a long day if they plan to get 400 cars through the course.

-Britain

The autocross will take place Wednesday July 4th and be a one day event. Due to the logistics of providing a safe, fun, driving experience, we are limiting participation to 400 drivers. So if you plan on driving, be sure to sign up early! If you will not be driving, you will want to set some time aside to come and watch your favorite cars sliding around the cones. Check the Parade website often, as we will post more detailed information as it becomes available. See you at the track!

Posted by: URY914 Oct 23 2006, 11:56 AM

I guess cars with headlights will be running at night. Or the course will be REAL short.

Posted by: drgchapman Oct 23 2006, 12:03 PM

Pretty darn optimistic.......run 400 cars in one day. Do the math....
400x60secsx3 runs=21 hours of pure running cars on the clock. Allow 20 seconds overlap between cars and 20 seconds to stage each car, even break. Not to mention the screw up time(timing issues, red flags, reruns, broken cars).

Good luck to 'em.

Posted by: Britain Smith Oct 23 2006, 12:08 PM

Remember, each car gets 3 runs. We had a hard enough time getting that many cars ran in 2 days and we didn't really have many screw-ups.

-Britain

Posted by: Cloudbuster Oct 23 2006, 12:14 PM

The usual scheme in San Diego is 2 practice sessions of 4 laps each. Final timed session of 4 laps -- one warmup, three official timed runs. Laps are in the 80 second range. Track goes hot at 9am, and things wind down by 5pm for a 100 car event. That figures out to 1200 car-laps in a day. So, if it is a 3 lap format, 3 times 400 cars is 1200 car-laps.

It'll be close.

Posted by: Britain Smith Oct 23 2006, 12:38 PM

Yea, but that doesn't take into account all the idiots and jackasses that show up to Parade.

-Britain

Posted by: J P Stein Oct 23 2006, 05:13 PM

Brit:
My AX fires are smoldering at low ebb at the moment.....it might have something to do with getting slower with each AX this year, but there it is.
If you wanna take the car to the Parade for sure, you'd have to buy it....not cheep.