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Posted by: nine14cats Nov 15 2006, 06:39 PM

A few of us run PCA events in the Golden Gate Region and Zone 7. This year GGR instituted a points system that took the place of the decade old system that had cars classed by type (mostly). This system needed updating and the points system addressed some of the updates, most notably incorporating the newer water cooled cars.

Unfortunately, the system needs tweeking to make it equitable. A glaring example would be Grant's current car in the same class as Andrew Blyhoder's ride. Both are in AX3. Or in Time Trials where TT8 has some cars that in technology and power to weight are very uncompetitive car to car.

I'm getting ready to respond to the Zone Rep in a PCA forum and encourage anyone wanting to join in the debate to do so. Go to www.pca-ggr.org and click on "online community". Just register and join in.

Here are some datapoints from my looking at it. I compared 2005 (the last season run under the old rules) and 2006 (the current season with the new points system).

I'll compare AX participants:

2005 = 227 different participants
2006 = 195 different participants

Number of classes where a minimum of (1) participant competed at least once:

2005 = 69
2006 = 23

Based on the above number the points system really was succesfull in cutting out the number of classes.

Now let's look at the number of classes that had enough particpants to qualify for the competition standings/year end awards.

Number of classes where particpants qualified for awards:

2005 = 26
2006 = 18

You could make the argument that people wanted someone to compete with, so they tried fitting into some classes under the old system.

Total number of drivers qualifying for awards:

2005 = 50
2006 = 53

Average number of drivers qualified for awards in each class:

2005 = 1.7
2006 = 2.5

This is a very interesting statistic. On the surface you would think that under the new points system that the average number of drivers qualified for awards would be substantially higher with the reduction in classes. I then decided to take out the biggest class in terms of number of qualified participants from each year (N class in 2005 and AX10 class in 2006), in case the number of drivers in these classes were skewing the data. Here's what I got for average qualified award participants:

2005 = 2
2006 = 3.1

Statistically, the percentage growth per number of qualified award participants was substantial, >30%. But in whole number terms....all this debate and we average 1 extra qualified driver per AX class? One nice benefit we did see with the new rules is the reduction of single driver classes from 15 to 3. But the data says we moved that single driver into a class that had 2 drivers and made it 3....

It's my opinion that we need to make a few more adjustments with the new system.

Here's a few charts of what it looks like. The red bars show total particpants per class (even if just 1 time the entire season) and the blue shows the participants qualified for year end competition awards (in this case a minimum of 5 out of the 9 events).

Bill P.


Attached image(s)

Posted by: race914 Nov 15 2006, 07:27 PM

Bill,

Believe it or not, my 914-4 is in TT5 according to the current point system.

Anxious to see if changes can be made.

Greg

Posted by: grantsfo Nov 15 2006, 07:30 PM

Yes it is an interesting system. TT is the most interesting given huge power to weight advantages in same classes. 165 hp 914-6's against 996 Turbos. I'm willing to deal with mismatch in AX as power is somewhat equalized. However I wont be able to compete with Andrew or Steve N in AX unless I strip my car and throw on race slicks, install a LSD, etc but that would kick me up into AX2 or AX1! ..and they would still beat me as they are far better AX drivers than I. However I would at least like to have a chance from car capability standpoint.

If things dont change I'm just going to continue to build a car that gives me opportunity to shoot for top 10 places consistently at both track and AX regardless of classing.

Noticed the GGR classing system is down. Wanted to run my planned mods through to see where I end up in 2006 system.

Posted by: J P Stein Nov 15 2006, 07:33 PM

Just for the hell of it (since I'm not involved) tell me what you're trying to accomplish.

A few things I learnt over the years....to your points, I hope:

Class inequities. We got those. The simple answer is RTFB. I would seem that NO ONE wants to run against Andrew......duh. Them guys didn't write the RB, but musta read it. Show up with a knife at a gunfight......who's to blame?

Awards. Sure, use the NASCAR ploy......show up & run. Those are your hardcore AXers. Our local SCCA uses your best 7 out of 9. 5 minimun ain't bad.....

Posted by: trekkor Nov 15 2006, 07:46 PM

We talked about this for a minute at lunch on Sunday and I mentioned power to wieght as a factor.

It might be hard to get accurate data as not everyone will get their car wieghed or dynoed

In ax5, where I run, I was just a second off the pace. I blame that on my taking a hit due to my own mechanicals...I feel I can compete in my ax class.

TT...that's another story.
Dean Thomas is in TT8 with me and was clicking off 1:54's at Sears with me as a passenger. If he had open track, I see him running 1:50-52's.
Where am I ever going to find 10 more seconds?

He's in a mildly prepared 3.0 911 to my 2.0 914-6.
I *might* be faster in few corners, but his speed on the straights, esp to turn 7 just blow me away.


KT

Posted by: nine14cats Nov 15 2006, 08:37 PM

QUOTE(trekkor @ Nov 15 2006, 05:46 PM)

We talked about this for a minute at lunch on Sunday and I mentioned power to wieght as a factor.

It might be hard to get accurate data as not everyone will get their car wieghed or dynoed

In ax5, where I run, I was just a second off the pace. I blame that on my taking a hit due to my own mechanicals...I feel I can compete in my ax class.

TT...that's another story.
Dean Thomas is in TT8 with me and was clicking off 1:54's at Sears with me as a passenger. If he had open track, I see him running 1:50-52's.
Where am I ever going to find 10 more seconds?

He's in a mildly prepared 3.0 911 to my 2.0 914-6.
I *might* be faster in few corners, but his speed on the straights, esp to turn 7 just blow me away.


KT

Posted by: nine14cats Nov 15 2006, 08:53 PM

QUOTE(J P Stein @ Nov 15 2006, 05:33 PM)

Just for the hell of it (since I'm not involved) tell me what you're trying to accomplish.

A few things I learnt over the years....to your points, I hope:

Class inequities. We got those. The simple answer is RTFB. I would seem that NO ONE wants to run against Andrew......duh. Them guys didn't write the RB, but musta read it. Show up with a knife at a gunfight......who's to blame?

Awards. Sure, use the NASCAR ploy......show up & run. Those are your hardcore AXers. Our local SCCA uses your best 7 out of 9. 5 minimun ain't bad.....

Posted by: Dan (Almaden Valley) Nov 15 2006, 10:01 PM

I was after the Adhoc Committee (they proposed the points system) for 3 years trying to get them to address the starting points values....they are grouped too closely together, yielding just what you pointed out in my class. I can hold my own but not against cars with 3x the horsepower...All the tracks GGR uses are HP friendly...

Going up the hill from 5-6 and 6-7 at Laguna is not going to be a fair fight between my car (even with the new slug) and the cars...(boxsters, 911s, 964s etc) in my class for TT.

At AX I think we are pretty close since HP is not as big of a factor...

Bill, the DEC is only there to pass judgement on the proposals presented to them each year...they are not there to write new rules or change anything....

If you or anyone perceives an inequity in our current points system, then they make a proposal to change them in some way like BillD did this year...
Our bilaws are not set up to enable the DEC to make wholesale changes...of course individuals of the DEC or the DEC as a group can detect inequities just like any of us and then make proposals to be discussed by us all and then voted upon by them...

THis is what happened in the early 90s....the Evolution Comm was made up of the DEC and some other interested folks and they came up with our old rules...

You are right the silence says volumes just as it did at the end of last season...
Larry is willing to concede that changes are needed and inevitable, David on the other hand is of the belief that things are just about perfect....but then again he and the majority of the Adhoc Comm that brought us these rules no longer run with us in TT or AX.

Posted by: Dan (Almaden Valley) Nov 16 2006, 12:23 AM

Bill,
can't say I am surprised by the answer you got from David

Posted by: Dan (Almaden Valley) Nov 16 2006, 01:15 AM

wooohooo go Bill.

Now you are starting to get where Ken and I were about 2 years ago....
His responses are typical....unfortunately

Posted by: race914 Nov 16 2006, 09:41 AM

I had several discussions with Andrew Forrest last year about dwindling GGR Time Trial turnout. We talked about the various reasons/challenges GGR is facing to financially make these events work out.

We did not however discuss the impact of the points system may be having.

What do you guys think? Is there a possible connection between current GGR car classes and TT attendance?

I remember back early 90s when I drove the 914 in the stock class "B" I was not too happy when an effort to reduce the number of classes eliminated all stock classes and I had to run with the 'improved' class "Bi".

With the stock classes, I didn't have to spend much $ to be competitive, the cars were more or less close to the same, and it was essentialy the driving that mattered. Not cubic $$s that were put into the car. The stock classes also gave the 'newbies' a place to start and not be completely embarrased by being compared to prepared cars. (helped new membership in my opinion)

By eliminating the stock classes, for me it meant keep the car as is and show up last in the timed runs, or.... spend a fair amount of $ to get competitive again. For awhile I took the third option and just decided not to run timed runs anymore. It was not exciting to always show up at the bottom of the list running against faster cars... Back then I had no motivation to "bring a knife to a gunfight". Eventually, I spent the $, upgraded suspension, tires, wheels, engine etc so I could have fun by at least being competitive with others in the class.

But at least back then, in the "Bi" improved class, after I spent the $, I was running against other 914-4s with similar improvements, not setup 911 track cars like with the current points system...

I know this probably doesn't play into everyones decision to run at a TT (Personally I just like getting the track time and seeing friends! (or is it just those lovey Motel 6 accomodations ) But does anyone think the current points system may keep people from the TTs?

My position: I'm still going to run, and in TT5. Just not putting too much value on 'what other cars are in my class' in the timed runs. I'm going to continue to focus on improving my driving (with the help of TraqMate) and continue to gather data and make car improvements. I'm not going to worry how I can get my 914-4 to outrun track prepared 911 3.0s (which the current points system kinda pushes you into worrying about IMHO). The most important thing for me is having fun with the guys running around the same times, no matter what class they are in!

Posted by: nine14cats Nov 16 2006, 10:18 AM

Hi Greg,

At this point in time I think the lowered attendance is due more with the fact of the increased alternatives (Trackmasters, NCRC, CDS, HOD, Leadfoot Adventures, etc) than the points system. And maybe from the fallout from the split that occured with the old CDI group and the successor group. I don't really see any of the old guard running anymore, maybe it was time to move on. I don't know. And several folks that were enjoying Time Trials moved up to W2W with PRC.

There have been alot of HPDE folks at the events this year. It has been filling up on the DE side (intstruction is maxed out). This coming year will be a telling year. If the TT series again declines in attendance, a new way to market itself will have to come into play. This in itself will probably make the point system debate secondary to the board. The TT series was a cash cow. At this point, it is not.

Greg, your car makes a great case for needing to review and tweek the rules. You can do all the suspension mods you want and coax a few more ponies out of that beautiful 4 of yours, but you're still going to give up more than 150HP+ to your competition. TT5 is the wrong class for the car. Power to weight you are probably TT8 and maybe TT7 with the suspension mods if you're looking at comparitive lap times.

I think the declining attendance is currently not the points system. I think it's a matter of GGR having to reach out to the market and having to appeal to the customer base for the first time. There are finally alternatives.

Bill P.

Posted by: Rotten Robby Nov 16 2006, 10:34 AM

I wish I had the time to really look over the AX rules and see what all is wrong. I have pointed out a few odd things I have noticed in the past but an exhaustive look is out of the question unless I had a miracle intern who was self-motivated, had good knowledge base, and.... awwww there I go dreaming again.

Since we seem to send a good number of competitive entries to Parade from this region every year, wouldn't it be a viable idea to use Parade rules for AX?

I don't advocate throwing out the baby with the bathwater if you guys who have taken a fair and exhaustive look feel there is something to be salvaged there... Again I have not looked it over exhaustively. I can just see something is smelly when I see 100hp cars in the same class with much higher hp cars.

Posted by: ChrisNPDrider Nov 16 2006, 11:02 AM

I really have no business in this debate, but am curious as to WHEN a decision is likely to be made. I was kinda flaky this year running in the fun group when I didn't stay out too late the night before and was within AAA tow range to home, but I want to register as part of a class next year in Zone 7/GGR. I have done enough reading around here to realize the RULES will dictate how to best spend time and $$ this winter.

I read the Parade rules and liked them, seems like a SCCA type thing. I would feel good running AX in an "Improved <2.0L class" especially since some 914s are going 2056 .

Posted by: race914 Nov 16 2006, 11:21 AM

Ok, another Monty Python quote "let's not worry about who killed who..."

Love it!

PCA is track time.... period. Real measure is with SCCA, IMSA, etc....

Who cares how PCA classes cars? It's not like you'll win or lose any $?????


Bye Now!

Posted by: grantsfo Nov 16 2006, 12:02 PM

QUOTE(Dan (Almaden Valley) @ Nov 15 2006, 11:15 PM)

wooohooo go Bill.

Now you are starting to get where Ken and I were about 2 years ago....
His responses are typical....unfortunately

Posted by: nine14cats Nov 16 2006, 03:07 PM

QUOTE(grantsfo @ Nov 16 2006, 10:02 AM)

QUOTE(Dan (Almaden Valley) @ Nov 15 2006, 11:15 PM)

wooohooo go Bill.

Now you are starting to get where Ken and I were about 2 years ago....
His responses are typical....unfortunately

Of all the people to turn into the poster child for class inequity! I dont even think I showed up for enough GGR events to qualify for for potential award in my class. I have never taken classing too seriously. But if helps to make a point I'm happy to help.

Next year I'll be showing up in a car that while not terribly radical should give me a better chance of going after top 10. I would much rather chase TTOD than win some abritrary PCA class. I have always gauged my success by picking a few drivers who have consistent results and compare my times.

Posted by: trekkor Nov 16 2006, 03:26 PM

I guess for me, in TT8 as well, is how a low powered car on 205's is supposed to be competitive...Regardless of the driver.

I mean, really, what would a "pro driver" hope to turn at TH, SP, BW and LS in my car?
Seriously, I'd like some educated guesses.

I just don't see it being very fair at all.

I'll run, but it won't mean anything to anyone.


KT

Posted by: trekkor Nov 16 2006, 03:39 PM

For your info:

I run: --- , and hope to run:

2:00 at SP--- ( 1:55 )
2:15 at TH--- ( 2:10 ) ( with turn five, "over the top" )
1:55 at LS--- ( 1:50 )

KT

Posted by: race914 Nov 16 2006, 04:06 PM

Hi Trekkor,

And your in TT8 with your 914-6. They have me in TT5 because of a non stock cam and carbs....on a 4!

Like I have any kind of chance running against the zoomy 911s...

No big deal for me. Not like there is any $ or trophys at stake

Now if this was my living, I'd put some effort in to make it equitable... but it's just a fun hobby so I'm not going to stress over it.... Let the 911 big sixes brag that they beat a 914-4....

Greg

QUOTE(trekkor @ Nov 16 2006, 01:39 PM)

Posted by: grantsfo Nov 16 2006, 04:48 PM

QUOTE(nine14cats @ Nov 16 2006, 01:07 PM)

Hi Grant,

Hope you aren't mad I used your car classification as a "for instance". It was just such an easy one to use.

Bill P.

Posted by: nebreitling Nov 16 2006, 07:28 PM

Larry is willing to concede that changes are needed and inevitable, David on the other hand is of the belief that things are just about perfect....but then again he and the majority of the Adhoc Comm that brought us these rules no longer run with us in TT or AX.

Posted by: Dan (Almaden Valley) Nov 16 2006, 08:53 PM

QUOTE(nebreitling @ Nov 16 2006, 05:28 PM)

QUOTE

Larry is willing to concede that changes are needed and inevitable, David on the other hand is of the belief that things are just about perfect....but then again he and the majority of the Adhoc Comm that brought us these rules no longer run with us in TT or AX.

weird.... not that i have (or ever had) a stake in it, but anyone who thinks the TT rules are fair is smoking some pretty optimistic shit.

Posted by: grantsfo Nov 16 2006, 09:43 PM

QUOTE(Dan (Almaden Valley) @ Nov 16 2006, 06:53 PM)

QUOTE(nebreitling @ Nov 16 2006, 05:28 PM)

QUOTE

Larry is willing to concede that changes are needed and inevitable, David on the other hand is of the belief that things are just about perfect....but then again he and the majority of the Adhoc Comm that brought us these rules no longer run with us in TT or AX.

weird.... not that i have (or ever had) a stake in it, but anyone who thinks the TT rules are fair is smoking some pretty optimistic shit.

......and there you go.

Thank you Nathan....
it takes some folks looking from the outside to put this all into perspective.

I believe that is part of the reason you saw so very few 914s of any kind or modification compete last season...

Posted by: nebreitling Nov 16 2006, 09:56 PM

It would probably be a red herring to say that TT attendance is down because of the rules, but I think some people do take it seriously.

The classing and timing are the only thing that really distinguishes the GGR TT's from the countless other options for track time. Lots of choices out there.

Posted by: anthony Nov 16 2006, 11:36 PM

I think what differentiates PCA/GGR is that it seems like a much more friendly and approachable atmosphere. I did SCCA AX once and those guys felt a little too hard core for my tastes.

Posted by: Randal Nov 17 2006, 12:04 AM

QUOTE(anthony @ Nov 16 2006, 09:36 PM)

Posted by: nine14cats Nov 17 2006, 12:09 AM

Hi Anthony,

Thanks for the comments. I agree with you that a large portion of folks don't worry about the point class. I'm actually one of them. I've built a few cars and then just run them where they fall. I've had a couple zoomy cars and I measure myself against TTOD. The folks that don't care about the classing make it easy for any points tweeking...it doesn't matter!

For the group of drivers that do care about point classing, since we have a system, why not try and make it accurate? And that's my point to the GGR folks. You put in a system, you might as well make it accurate. And since so much work and pain went into putting it in, it seems logical to keep an eye on it.

So by doing so, you can make both camps happy. The first camp, the ones that don't care about classes, will enjoy themselves. The 2nd camp, the ones that like competing under a set of classes, get classes that are more thought out and fairer. Not totally fair since it will always be a compromise, but as fair as we can make it.

Then comes your point about how to make the AX and TT events more friendly for newcomers. I've always been one to say let's make it as social as possible. I also like competing, mostly against myself, but also with a group of people that are running my speed. The GGR AX's attract a large number of cars, so they have always been more business like to keep the runs going and get eveyone their 8 runs minimum. The adjacent regions tend to attract fields roughly 50% or 60% the size of GGR and are definitely more relaxed in atmosphere. I've made friends in all the regions and I always have a good time (even when my car breaks!... )

GGR will continue to see pressure from the other car clubs. And I don't think that the folks that want a DE only experience such as Trackmasters will ever become Time Trialers with GGR. There are quite a few Time Trialers and this is their only series locally. If GGR wants to attract more people to the TT series to offset cost, they are going to have to appeal to the DE group. I've suggested moving the Timed runs to the end of the 2nd day instead of lunch to allow the DE to be uniterrupted, but this doesn't seem to be a popular option with GGR.

My crysal ball says that GGR will continue with the TT series, which I hope they do since I really enjoy it, and the DE crowd will continue to patron other clubs. And I think that's okay. I like DE events with other clubs too. Time Trials is just another form of the DE experience I happen to like. GGR does get excellent 2 day rates at the tracks they book, so it will be interesting to see how much the fees go up if attendance continues to be down next year.

Thanks,

Bill P.

Posted by: trekkor Nov 17 2006, 12:13 AM

Yes, I'll be happy running for top 5.

Depends on who shows, of course, but top a 10 out of 100+ cars should be an attainable goal for me.


KT

Posted by: Dan (Almaden Valley) Nov 17 2006, 12:22 AM

If participation does not pick up you can expect to see fees like the last TT Bill.

Probably around $275-300/ weekend. if participation continues to hover around 80 drivers.

by increasing our participation by 20 drivers we would drop the cost to ~200-225/weekend.

Also if participation does not increase you can expect to see more joint ventures like TT #5 with PRC....

Or maybe they might try just doing a couple of events as DEs only...just to see if it makes a difference....try administering it along the lines of a CDS event where the ground school/classroom for rookies is at the track...

With hot lap timers....timed runs are really just for bragging rights and a shot at a $10 trophy at the end of the season.

Posted by: trekkor Nov 17 2006, 12:41 AM

I would love to get a shot at open track for two laps back-to-back.

At Sears last weekend, I don't think I had a lap with out some sort of hold up.

I'll do my best to support GGR as my schedule allows next season, regardless of classes.


KT

Posted by: nine14cats Nov 17 2006, 12:51 AM

QUOTE(Dan (Almaden Valley) @ Nov 16 2006, 10:22 PM)

If participation does not pick up you can expect to see fees like the last TT Bill.

Probably around $275-300/ weekend. if participation continues to hover around 80 drivers.

by increasing our participation by 20 drivers we would drop the cost to ~200-225/weekend.

Also if participation does not increase you can expect to see more joint ventures like TT #5 with PRC....

Or maybe they might try just doing a couple of events as DEs only...just to see if it makes a difference....try administering it along the lines of a CDS event where the ground school/classroom for rookies is at the track...

With hot lap timers....timed runs are really just for bragging rights and a shot at a $10 trophy at the end of the season.

Posted by: anthony Nov 17 2006, 01:09 AM

QUOTE(Randal @ Nov 16 2006, 10:04 PM)

Posted by: anthony Nov 17 2006, 01:25 AM

QUOTE(nine14cats @ Nov 16 2006, 10:09 PM)

Posted by: nine14cats Nov 17 2006, 01:49 AM

If they are anything like my 914, they're probably on jackstands....

Bill P.

Posted by: anthony Nov 18 2006, 02:36 PM

Why isn't the point system working right now?

Is there another page that lists the mod points so one could manually calculate points for hypothetical upgrades?

Posted by: race914 Nov 18 2006, 05:13 PM

Here is the http://www.pca-ggr.org/show.cgi?page=text&id=rulebook1#_Toc120902504

QUOTE(anthony @ Nov 18 2006, 12:36 PM)

Posted by: Rotten Robby Nov 18 2006, 05:48 PM

QUOTE(anthony @ Nov 18 2006, 12:36 PM)

Posted by: anthony Nov 18 2006, 05:58 PM

QUOTE(Rotten Robby @ Nov 18 2006, 03:48 PM)

Posted by: Rotten Robby Nov 18 2006, 09:25 PM

QUOTE(anthony @ Nov 18 2006, 03:58 PM)

QUOTE(Rotten Robby @ Nov 18 2006, 03:48 PM)

For starters, the base points are a little wacked. My 911 Carrera has more base points in AX than my 914-4 and yet my Carrera couldn't possibly be competitive with my 914 on an autocross course base for base.

Actually that is not true. Your Carrera should be quite capable. There are many AX courses where you should be able to crush stockish 914s all day long. I've done it many times when driving my SC. If there sections on the course where you can use the horsepower, then stock 914-4s don't stand a chance.

Posted by: anthony Nov 18 2006, 10:35 PM

First, remember that Trekkor and Grant essentially have race cars. Those cars are classed much higher than a stock 911.

I was talking stockish 914-4 versus your Carrera or my SC. At GGR AXes, usually Alameda, at least 60% of the time I feel that my SC has the upper hand over my 914 2.0L. And I'm talking courses where I didn't even get out of 2nd gear in the SC.

The year before at the Zone 7 2-day AX school we had a short and tight course where the 914s were king but on the long and fast course my stock SC was several seconds faster than Bi level 914s.

Posted by: anthony Nov 18 2006, 10:54 PM

I was looking at the proposed 2007 rules. If this approved it will make 914s much more competitive.

Posted by: Dan (Almaden Valley) Nov 18 2006, 11:06 PM

QUOTE(anthony @ Nov 18 2006, 08:35 PM)

Posted by: Rotten Robby Nov 18 2006, 11:26 PM

QUOTE(anthony @ Nov 18 2006, 08:35 PM)

Posted by: Dan (Almaden Valley) Nov 18 2006, 11:33 PM

we never had the 911 vs 914 vs 986 vs 944S2 vs 951 with the old rules.
Until your car was in the street modified or fully modified classes you ran like cars against like cars.
suspension, tires, wheels, brakes, etc were the same for everyone...that modified their cars to the limit of each car classification be it B, BI, BP, BX etc...
car became less of a factor and the driver was what made the difference.
Now the driver may or may not have as much of an effect as the person the looks at the points and picks the car that looks most capable of being built right and staying within the points totals...yielding top dog cars as much as top dog drivers.

Posted by: anthony Nov 19 2006, 12:17 AM

Dan, what are you about?

Posted by: Dan (Almaden Valley) Nov 19 2006, 12:36 AM

all of the regions within Zone7 adopt and use the GGR rules..this includes, Diablo, Sacramento, Redwood, Yosemite, LPR etc.
Always have because GGR was the region with the most competition experience and the TT series.

because I would not call Trekkor's or Grants cars to be essentially race cars at this point.
Full bodied cars with most or all metal panels. Full interiors etc.
Until either of their cars go on a very strict diet I would not consider them as anything more than modified street cars. If you notice at the events that Trekkor, Grant and I all attended they did not finish appreciably higher than I did.
My car is certainly not a "racecar" at this juncture...at least I don't consider it one. Maybe others do?
Actually neither of their cars are any more modified than my car other than the 6 cylinder motors.
their cars are pointed so high because 914s are penalized at least 75 points in AX due to mid engine configuration (just like the Boxsters) to start with and then points for the conversions, and other items.

I would happily AX a stock (Bi) style 914 VS a Ki (SC) or Li carrera and at most
venues the well driven 914 would prevail...IMHO (your mileage may vary )

BTDT with 3 four cylinder 914s and two Carreras (an '84 and an '87)
Rarely is there a course that really favors the high HP vs the light nimble 914.

Posted by: anthony Nov 19 2006, 12:49 AM

You may not call them "race cars" but they are almost dedicated autocross cars. You can't really compare cars like theirs with flared fenders, race tires, and some fiberglass to a stock 914 like mine or a stock SC or Carrera. That was all I meant.

Posted by: Dan (Almaden Valley) Nov 19 2006, 12:50 AM

QUOTE(anthony @ Nov 18 2006, 10:49 PM)

Posted by: McMark Nov 19 2006, 12:55 AM

I know this is completely out of left field, but what if you classed people on how fast they run on average. That would completely eliminate the arduous task of trying to classify an almost infinite number of engine build and tranny build and suspension build options. If you focus on the times, the people who are running fast are competing with the people who are just as fast, and the slower people are with the slower people. I know it's a crazy leap from the way things have usually been run, and I'm definitely one of the last people who knows anything about GGR classing, but I'm curious what you guys think about it, even if it is just hypothetically.

Posted by: Dan (Almaden Valley) Nov 19 2006, 12:58 AM

QUOTE(McMark @ Nov 18 2006, 10:55 PM)

Posted by: Rotten Robby Nov 19 2006, 01:00 AM

QUOTE(Dan (Almaden Valley) @ Nov 18 2006, 10:36 PM)

all of the regions within Zone7 adopt and use the GGR rules..this includes, Diablo, Sacramento, Redwood, Yosemite, LPR etc.
Always have because GGR was the region with the most competition experience and the TT series.

because I would not call Trekkor's or Grants cars to be essentially race cars at this point.
Full bodied cars with most or all metal panels. Full interiors etc.
Until either of their cars go on a very strict diet I would not consider them as anything more than modified street cars. If you notice at the events that Trekkor, Grant and I all attended they did not finish appreciably higher than I did.
My car is certainly not a "racecar" at this juncture...at least I don't consider it one. Maybe others do?
Actually neither of their cars are any more modified than my car other than the 6 cylinder motors.
their cars are pointed so high because 914s are penalized at least 75 points in AX due to mid engine configuration (just like the Boxsters) to start with and then points for the conversions, and other items.

I would happily AX a stock (Bi) style 914 VS a Ki (SC) or Li carrera and at most
venues the well driven 914 would prevail...IMHO (your mileage may vary )

BTDT with 3 four cylinder 914s and two Carreras (an '84 and an '87)
Rarely is there a course that really favors the high HP vs the light nimble 914.

Posted by: Dan (Almaden Valley) Nov 19 2006, 01:02 AM

QUOTE(Rotten Robby @ Nov 18 2006, 11:00 PM)

QUOTE(Dan (Almaden Valley) @ Nov 18 2006, 10:36 PM)

all of the regions within Zone7 adopt and use the GGR rules..this includes, Diablo, Sacramento, Redwood, Yosemite, LPR etc.
Always have because GGR was the region with the most competition experience and the TT series.

because I would not call Trekkor's or Grants cars to be essentially race cars at this point.
Full bodied cars with most or all metal panels. Full interiors etc.
Until either of their cars go on a very strict diet I would not consider them as anything more than modified street cars. If you notice at the events that Trekkor, Grant and I all attended they did not finish appreciably higher than I did.
My car is certainly not a "racecar" at this juncture...at least I don't consider it one. Maybe others do?
Actually neither of their cars are any more modified than my car other than the 6 cylinder motors.
their cars are pointed so high because 914s are penalized at least 75 points in AX due to mid engine configuration (just like the Boxsters) to start with and then points for the conversions, and other items.

I would happily AX a stock (Bi) style 914 VS a Ki (SC) or Li carrera and at most
venues the well driven 914 would prevail...IMHO (your mileage may vary )

BTDT with 3 four cylinder 914s and two Carreras (an '84 and an '87)
Rarely is there a course that really favors the high HP vs the light nimble 914.

I would say Grant has moved more to the racecar side of the world and will do more so over the winter. Trekkor has become a very good driver so what he lacks in equipment he makes up for in dance moves...

I have not attended enough GGR events to say that they are faster or not... I know they could be. With all that room OMG! Most SVR courses are 914 courses because of our lot size. When I see what is in the same class as me in our results I am confused. I would just enter in the FUN category but I am competitive by nature.

I would vote for Parade Rules but I bet that isn't even being considered.

Posted by: Rotten Robby Nov 19 2006, 01:02 AM

QUOTE(Dan (Almaden Valley) @ Nov 18 2006, 10:58 PM)

QUOTE(McMark @ Nov 18 2006, 10:55 PM)

I know this is completely out of left field, but what if you classed people on how fast they run on average. That would completely eliminate the arduous task of trying to classify an almost infinite number of engine build and tranny build and suspension build options. If you focus on the times, the people who are running fast are competing with the people who are just as fast, and the slower people are with the slower people. I know it's a crazy leap from the way things have usually been run, and I'm definitely one of the last people who knows anything about GGR classing, but I'm curious what you guys think about it, even if it is just hypothetically.

how would you break down the classes Mark?
Interesting point of view, if folks didn't sandbag to get into a slower class

Posted by: McMark Nov 19 2006, 01:29 AM

Classes would be roughly broken down by who's the regularly in the top 10% (TTOD potentials), and then scale the numbers from there.

As an uneducated outsider, it seems ridiculous to have a ton of classes. What does a class win mean if there are 40 classes and only 2 or 3 people in your class.

Are there really people out there building AX classed cars to win? I'm serious here, I don't know. Is anyone saying, "I'm going to build the top dog AX8 car!" Or whatever class. From what little I've seen, the people who are going to the AX aren't looking at classes all day at the venue, they're looking at times. Very few people are concentrating on who's in their class and how they're comparing to those people. I could see the classes being more important if there were classified run groups, but that's not logistically possible. So it all get's mashed together.

Posted by: anthony Nov 19 2006, 01:49 AM

In SCCA people definitely build class winning cars.

Under the old system people built cars to the limit of classes. For example, I understand that Bp used to be a very competitive and well attended class for 914s.

The old classes sort of put practical limits on the upgrades. You could only do so much before getting bumped up to the next class. The new classes are so wide open with different mods that people could come up with wild concoctions of cars.

I'm not sure if the culture has changed. Dan said they used to only have 2-3 people in Fun class and now we have 20. Is a reflection of the current membership or the new points sytem?

Maybe dedicated AXers will build cars for class wins? I kind of doubt it because there isn't much recognition for being AX## champ. It could take several seasons for people to figure out how to 'game' the points system.

Posted by: J P Stein Nov 19 2006, 09:00 AM

OK, after reading this thread, I "get it".

The fairest Porsche AX class rules I've seen are the Parade classings.....the only problem with them are the number of classes. Condensing them by half would be a slam dunk for a smaller group. Reinventing the wheel has been done, eh? They are stable as an added bonus. All might not agree with the "cut offs" to move one to a higher class......but you can't make an omlet without breaking a few eggs.

Hooking the AX rules to the TT rules is kinda shakey, but I think it would work using the Parade AX rules. For the most part, the Parade rules have like cars running against each other.....right up the line till you hit the Mod classes.....then bring the gun of your choice.

It seems that GGR competition board (or whatever you call it), needs a house cleaning. The only way to do that is to GET INVOLVED.....more than just letter writing.

BTW, I too have wondered where the "square corner" AX thing comes from. Iz'at another "We're Zone 7 & ain't we special" deal?

Posted by: grantsfo Nov 19 2006, 09:22 AM

QUOTE(McMark @ Nov 18 2006, 11:29 PM)

Posted by: Rotten Robby Nov 19 2006, 11:23 AM

QUOTE(J P Stein @ Nov 19 2006, 07:00 AM)

OK, after reading this thread, I "get it".

The fairest Porsche AX class rules I've seen are the Parade classings.....the only problem with them are the number of classes. Condensing them by half would be a slam dunk for a smaller group. Reinventing the wheel has been done, eh? They are stable as an added bonus. All might not agree with the "cut offs" to move one to a higher class......but you can't make an omlet without breaking a few eggs.

Hooking the AX rules to the TT rules is kinda shakey, but I think it would work using the Parade AX rules. For the most part, the Parade rules have like cars running against each other.....right up the line till you hit the Mod classes.....then bring the gun of your choice.

It seems that GGR competition board (or whatever you call it), needs a house cleaning. The only way to do that is to GET INVOLVED.....more than just letter writing.

BTW, I too have wondered where the "square corner" AX thing comes from. Iz'at another "We're Zone 7 & ain't we special" deal?

Posted by: nine14cats Nov 20 2006, 12:51 AM

When I look at GGR I see a big machine. Good, bad, indifferent it's got a huge mix of track folks and is just bigger than all the surrounding regions combined. So they do their own thing and most regions follow suit.

I think there is tweeks needed on the points system but I don't see it as being a bad system. I think by re-evaluating the base points a few of the points on the mods you could clean up some of the glaring disparities. And I don't believe the Ad Hoc committee made up the points system on the fly. Several PCA regions in the U.S. use the point system. Zone 8 has used it for several seasons before GGR. Zone 8's seems to bucket more cars together than the GGR points system.

If we want to submit something by mid year next year for review and inclusion in 2008, we need to work on it. My suspicion is that less than a handful of people are going to want to work on it. More people may wish a particular item or items were different, but probably not enough to participate.

I'm debating myself if I should continue to work the issue with GGR or call off the dogs. For me I see it as a process improvement and one of needed refinement. But the rules themselves have very little meaning for me in my particular world of competion. Randal has the Raby powered 914 waiting in the wings that will take on Hamilton Racings car for TTOD. And I've got Fritz if I want to come out and play. These 3 cars should be lumped together in some "unlimited" class in my opinion. They are so removed from production cars that in AX they should compete against each other. And if you look at the AX standings, we were always 2nd through 5th to Andrew Blyholder, so that makes sense.

The refinement on the production based cars is where I'm interested in. My Spec Boxster will be interesting to class against the production cars. I think AX wise is correctly classed, but I'm a believer of power to weight ratio on the track and it is grossly mis-classed, as are a host of other cars, not just Boxsters.

I'm just wondering if I should lead a charge for correct and/or refined classing when it really doesn't matter for me since I'll either run unlimited GT classes with Fritz or play around with the Spec Boxster and not care about classes.

As far as why the bay area 914 club members don't AX in mass, I think it's preference. The majority of club members do not AX, they socialize. That in itself is really neat, but we don't seem to be a large group of racer types. We seem to be tinkerers, but only a few of us get off running over cones or hitting the big tracks.

Bill P.

Posted by: anthony Nov 21 2006, 06:40 PM

I just found the GGR forums. I thought this was an interesting post by Fiid:

http://comp.pca-ggr.org/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=131

So, when someone builds a 350hp subie turbo 914 that starts consistantly winning TTODs, do you think the rule would be reinstated? I imagine that it would rub people the wrong way if a non-Porsche powered car started winning everything.

The other 914 specific issue that I've been thinking about is displacement. There is very little points difference between a 115hp 2056, a 150hp 2270, and a 200hp 2316.

Posted by: Dan (Almaden Valley) Nov 21 2006, 06:56 PM

QUOTE(anthony @ Nov 21 2006, 04:40 PM)

Posted by: J P Stein Nov 22 2006, 06:54 AM

QUOTE(anthony @ Nov 21 2006, 04:40 PM)

Posted by: Dan (Almaden Valley) Nov 22 2006, 10:26 AM

QUOTE(J P Stein @ Nov 22 2006, 04:54 AM)

QUOTE(anthony @ Nov 21 2006, 04:40 PM)

So, when someone builds a 350hp subie turbo 914 that starts consistantly winning TTODs, do you think the rule would be reinstated?

When? *If* would be better usage cause it ain't bloody likely.
Looking around this website, I see a grand total of one OTP engined 914 that is a serious AXer (MikeT). Why do you suppose that is the case?

Posted by: grantsfo Nov 22 2006, 12:45 PM

QUOTE(anthony @ Nov 21 2006, 04:40 PM)

Posted by: J P Stein Nov 22 2006, 01:35 PM

QUOTE(grantsfo @ Nov 22 2006, 10:45 AM)

Dang! I missed that ..so how would you figure points on a 1.3 liter rotory conversion?

Posted by: nine14cats Nov 22 2006, 01:54 PM

QUOTE(J P Stein @ Nov 22 2006, 11:35 AM)

QUOTE(grantsfo @ Nov 22 2006, 10:45 AM)

Dang! I missed that ..so how would you figure points on a 1.3 liter rotory conversion?

The only outfit that call the rotary a 1.3L is Mazda.
To everyone else it's 2.6L and that's giving the thing a break.
That said, I haven't a clue as to points.

Posted by: J P Stein Nov 22 2006, 06:12 PM

We have a polethera of alternative powerplants at our PCA AXs.

They come wrapped in alternative cars & a few will often smoke all the Porsches.
....we even welcome them back over & over. Glutons for punishment?...maybe, but it gives a yardstick to match up with other makes & some damn good drivers.

Posted by: anthony Nov 23 2006, 01:33 PM

The obvious reason there has been no TTOD non-porsche powered AX car so far was because the rules didn't allow it before. Why would have someone built such a car with no place to race it?

Fiid isn't a hard core autocrosser but there is no reason someone couldn't take an existing top car and make it faster. Andrew Blyholder or Steve Nislony (spelling?) could put a WRX subie engine in their cars for around $2000 or even less.

I think we still might not see it because I think everybody thinks as Bill does that the rules would be "clarified" if they did.

Posted by: nine14cats Nov 23 2006, 02:21 PM

QUOTE(anthony @ Nov 23 2006, 11:33 AM)

Posted by: J P Stein Nov 23 2006, 02:29 PM

QUOTE(nine14cats @ Nov 23 2006, 12:21 PM)

Posted by: grantsfo Nov 23 2006, 02:32 PM

QUOTE(nine14cats @ Nov 23 2006, 12:21 PM)

QUOTE(anthony @ Nov 23 2006, 11:33 AM)

The obvious reason there has been no TTOD non-porsche powered AX car so far was because the rules didn't allow it before. Why would have someone built such a car with no place to race it?

Fiid isn't a hard core autocrosser but there is no reason someone couldn't take an existing top car and make it faster. Andrew Blyholder or Steve Nislony (spelling?) could put a WRX subie engine in their cars for around $2000 or even less.

I think we still might not see it because I think everybody thinks as Bill does that the rules would be "clarified" if they did.

Another factor is our location. We are within easy driving distance of 3 regions (GGR, LPR, SVR) in PCA. We also have a huge region for SCCA. In fact, Steve Nieslony once told us that he took his car (I'm not sure if it's his current zoomy or his old narrow bodied 914) to SCCA events. I remember his exact words "They absolutely kicked my ass".

It's JP's ole big fish in a little pond thing. I bet a hybrid car type of guy would get tired pretty quick of kicking tail in the local PCA region, so they'd eventually venture out, if nothing more than testing yourself against different competiton. In fact, Randal and I are looking at SCCA AX's to see how our cars perform against other marques.

With that being said, I really haven't seen any owner/builders going after a high end hybrid. It may only be $2K to stuff a motor in, but it would take someone effort and money to sort it. The car characteristics change when you re-engineer it, and you then have to tweek for it.

Bill P.

Posted by: nine14cats Nov 23 2006, 02:37 PM

One thing that is fun is driving against other makes of cars. Just a nice change up. I like it on the track too. I like running with P cars and I like running with other cars. It's all good.

As far as the point system, until someone comes out and starts competing and having success with alternative power plants, it will be mostly an non-issue.

I still believe a review and tweek of the points system would measureably help the fairness of the system.

Bill P.

Posted by: Rotten Robby Nov 23 2006, 02:44 PM

QUOTE(nine14cats @ Nov 23 2006, 12:21 PM)

QUOTE(anthony @ Nov 23 2006, 11:33 AM)

The obvious reason there has been no TTOD non-porsche powered AX car so far was because the rules didn't allow it before. Why would have someone built such a car with no place to race it?

Fiid isn't a hard core autocrosser but there is no reason someone couldn't take an existing top car and make it faster. Andrew Blyholder or Steve Nislony (spelling?) could put a WRX subie engine in their cars for around $2000 or even less.

I think we still might not see it because I think everybody thinks as Bill does that the rules would be "clarified" if they did.

Another factor is our location. We are within easy driving distance of 3 regions (GGR, LPR, SVR) in PCA. We also have a huge region for SCCA. In fact, Steve Nieslony once told us that he took his car (I'm not sure if it's his current zoomy or his old narrow bodied 914) to SCCA events. I remember his exact words "They absolutely kicked my ass".

It's JP's ole big fish in a little pond thing. I bet a hybrid car type of guy would get tired pretty quick of kicking tail in the local PCA region, so they'd eventually venture out, if nothing more than testing yourself against different competiton. In fact, Randal and I are looking at SCCA AX's to see how our cars perform against other marques.

With that being said, I really haven't seen any owner/builders going after a high end hybrid. It may only be $2K to stuff a motor in, but it would take someone effort and money to sort it. The car characteristics change when you re-engineer it, and you then have to tweek for it.

Bill P.

Posted by: Dan (Almaden Valley) Nov 25 2006, 01:47 PM

the DEC (drivers event committee) has made its decisions and recommendations to the GGR board ....the results will not be revealed until the board has passed judgement (rubber stamp)

I have no idea how it went...although I would be pretty surprised if the proposals that BillD presented were not approved. the only thing that remains to be seen is if the proposals are (were) accepted what the points reduction will be for 914s and Boxsters. 60 was being thrown around. If so I will drop a class until I do my motor rebuild. With the mods I plan on I will probably end up back in the same classes for next season That would be nice...more power and same competitors.

Will keep everyone posted as soon as results are available.

Posted by: ChrisNPDrider Nov 25 2006, 08:48 PM

QUOTE(Dan (Almaden Valley) @ Nov 25 2006, 11:47 AM)

Will keep everyone posted as soon as results are available.

Posted by: chilli Nov 29 2006, 11:46 PM

[quote name='nine14cats' date='Nov 23 2006, 12:21 PM' post='822057']
[quote name='anthony' post='822029' date='Nov 23 2006, 11:33 AM']
We also have a huge region for SCCA. In fact, Steve Nieslony once told us that he took his car (I'm not sure if it's his current zoomy or his old narrow bodied 914) to SCCA events. I remember his exact words "They absolutely kicked my ass".


Bill P.
[/quote]

SCCA has consistently "ruled out" porsche in autox. When porsches win the rules change.

mike

Posted by: Dan (Almaden Valley) Nov 29 2006, 11:55 PM

[quote name='chilli' date='Nov 29 2006, 09:46 PM' post='825769']
[quote name='nine14cats' date='Nov 23 2006, 12:21 PM' post='822057']
[quote name='anthony' post='822029' date='Nov 23 2006, 11:33 AM']
We also have a huge region for SCCA. In fact, Steve Nieslony once told us that he took his car (I'm not sure if it's his current zoomy or his old narrow bodied 914) to SCCA events. I remember his exact words "They absolutely kicked my ass".


Bill P.
[/quote]

SCCA has consistently "ruled out" porsche in autox. When porsches win the rules change.

mike
[/quote]
Chilli, you're right.
Wow what a concept....lets write the rules so we make it tough on the P cars...
Hasn't just about every racing organization at some time or another written their rules to punish the Porsches.

I guess we should take it as a backhanded compliment

Now GGR just writes rules to penalize the Boxsters and 914s...you know we have the high HP advantage
Oh, that's right it is that midengine thingy...

Posted by: anthony Nov 30 2006, 12:11 AM

We also have a huge region for SCCA. In fact, Steve Nieslony once told us that he took his car (I'm not sure if it's his current zoomy or his old narrow bodied 914) to SCCA events. I remember his exact words "They absolutely kicked my ass".

Posted by: Dan (Almaden Valley) Nov 30 2006, 12:17 AM

Forget that stuff....for 37.5K you could buy Fritz (Bill Ps 911 3.6 track car) and have several years of track time including entries and tires, motor rebuilds and still have some cash left over.

spending 100K for an AX car that runs 30-40 seconds at a time just doesnt compute for me.

I guess some of those guys are pretty hard core.

Posted by: grantsfo Nov 30 2006, 12:33 AM

[quote name='Dan (Almaden Valley)' date='Nov 29 2006, 09:55 PM' post='825780']
[quote name='chilli' date='Nov 29 2006, 09:46 PM' post='825769']
[quote name='nine14cats' date='Nov 23 2006, 12:21 PM' post='822057']
[quote name='anthony' post='822029' date='Nov 23 2006, 11:33 AM']
We also have a huge region for SCCA. In fact, Steve Nieslony once told us that he took his car (I'm not sure if it's his current zoomy or his old narrow bodied 914) to SCCA events. I remember his exact words "They absolutely kicked my ass".


Bill P.
[/quote]

SCCA has consistently "ruled out" porsche in autox. When porsches win the rules change.

mike
[/quote]
Chilli, you're right.
Wow what a concept....lets write the rules so we make it tough on the P cars...
Hasn't just about every racing organization at some time or another written their rules to punish the Porsches.

I guess we should take it as a backhanded compliment

Now GGR just writes rules to penalize the Boxsters and 914s...you know we have the high HP advantage
Oh, that's right it is that midengine thingy...
[/quote]


Hmmmm ....I see Porsches winning SCCA class events all the time. I think SCCA is pretty fair . GGR unfair? Not in AX. Dan in his tired old street legal 914 won his supposedly unfair class in GGR by a mile and put up some top 20 times in large fields where he was driving the lowest HP car in the field. If 914 base points were unfair Dan and others wouldnt be placing as well as they do in GGR events. My stock powered 1.8 should have been on bottom of the heap too yet I had some top 20 places too. I think I'm the only one who thinks AX base points for the 914 were on the mark due to weight advantage. Our cars do have an advantage in AX.

Posted by: Dan (Almaden Valley) Nov 30 2006, 12:44 AM

I agree Grant, that I (we) can hold our own at AX...but at TT that is another thing.

Unfortunately for GGR the AX and TT rules are permanently entwined. Untill a fresh look is taken at HP/wt for TT the 914s at almost all levels, other than the GT classes,
914s will have a tough time.
We also need more 914s to show up for TT next season to get some data to support our contention that we need a points brake in that venue.
From what I have gathered from my inside informants...
The rules did not really get much of a change this year.

Almost all of BillDs proposals were negated by the DEC for Boxsters and 914s.
He presented alot of data but evidently not enough 914 or Boxster drivers were on the DEC this year

Oh well, maybe we can get some TT relief next season...

And besides aren't we always looking for any advantage we can get?

Posted by: nebreitling Nov 30 2006, 12:51 AM

you all should create your own class system independent of GGR, and just run that.

Posted by: race914 Nov 30 2006, 09:25 AM

Some info for those following this thread, but may not have investigated the class point system....

The GGR Car Classification site is back up. For anyone that wants to see the variety of cars classed together, http://comp.pca-ggr.org/rulcomm_cs/web/classedcars_tt.php?c=TT5&o=0

Range in TT5 is from 914-4 thru 993 Turbo & 996 GT3!

Of course I've changed my cam in the 4 so I can run with them (it's one mutha of a cam)


I'm not making a stand on any particular point. Just wanted to provided some info to those who may be wondering what is going on.

I have fun showing this to my friends. I'm wondering how the guy with the 993 turbo explains to his friends that he is classed with a 914-4?

Posted by: grantsfo Nov 30 2006, 11:41 AM

QUOTE(race914 @ Nov 30 2006, 07:25 AM)

Some info for those following this thread, but may not have investigated the class point system....

The GGR Car Classification site is back up. For anyone that wants to see the variety of cars classed together, http://comp.pca-ggr.org/rulcomm_cs/web/classedcars_tt.php?c=TT5&o=0

Range in TT5 is from 914-4 thru 993 Turbo & 996 GT3!

Of course I've changed my cam in the 4 so I can run with them (it's one mutha of a cam)


I'm not making a stand on any particular point. Just wanted to provided some info to those who may be wondering what is going on.

I have fun showing this to my friends. I'm wondering how the guy with the 993 turbo explains to his friends that he is classed with a 914-4?

Posted by: grantsfo Nov 30 2006, 11:46 AM

QUOTE(nebreitling @ Nov 29 2006, 10:51 PM)

Posted by: nine14cats Nov 30 2006, 12:03 PM

QUOTE(race914 @ Nov 30 2006, 07:25 AM)

Some info for those following this thread, but may not have investigated the class point system....

The GGR Car Classification site is back up. For anyone that wants to see the variety of cars classed together, http://comp.pca-ggr.org/rulcomm_cs/web/classedcars_tt.php?c=TT5&o=0

Range in TT5 is from 914-4 thru 993 Turbo & 996 GT3!

Of course I've changed my cam in the 4 so I can run with them (it's one mutha of a cam)


I'm not making a stand on any particular point. Just wanted to provided some info to those who may be wondering what is going on.

I have fun showing this to my friends. I'm wondering how the guy with the 993 turbo explains to his friends that he is classed with a 914-4?

Posted by: race914 Nov 30 2006, 09:09 PM

QUOTE(nine14cats @ Nov 30 2006, 10:03 AM)

QUOTE(race914 @ Nov 30 2006, 07:25 AM)

Some info for those following this thread, but may not have investigated the class point system....

The GGR Car Classification site is back up. For anyone that wants to see the variety of cars classed together, http://comp.pca-ggr.org/rulcomm_cs/web/classedcars_tt.php?c=TT5&o=0

Range in TT5 is from 914-4 thru 993 Turbo & 996 GT3!

Of course I've changed my cam in the 4 so I can run with them (it's one mutha of a cam)


I'm not making a stand on any particular point. Just wanted to provided some info to those who may be wondering what is going on.

I have fun showing this to my friends. I'm wondering how the guy with the 993 turbo explains to his friends that he is classed with a 914-4?

Hey Greg,

I'd take this as an opportunity to re-engineer the 914. I'd add a second 4 cylinder engine in the front, and go for a torquer, more like the tractor pull mentality you see on TV. You could pull the GT3's out of the corners and really kick butt!



Bill P.

Posted by: trekkor Nov 30 2006, 10:12 PM

Bill, I see we are both in TT8 with *identical* points.

Interesting


KT

Posted by: Dan (Almaden Valley) Nov 30 2006, 10:32 PM

QUOTE(trekkor @ Nov 30 2006, 08:12 PM)

Bill, I see we are both in TT8 with *identical* points.

Interesting


KT

Posted by: trekkor Nov 30 2006, 11:16 PM

Posted by: Rotten Robby Nov 30 2006, 11:19 PM

Having had a better chance to cuddle up with the very interesting read that is the GGR points system I have to agree... The TT rules SUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCKKKKKSS!

There is much inequity in the groupings. Oh well... I get the impression that the TT thing is evolving in order to survive. I hope it does. I would love to try that some time.

Posted by: Dan (Almaden Valley) Nov 30 2006, 11:32 PM

QUOTE(trekkor @ Nov 30 2006, 09:16 PM)

QUOTE

butt in a wrapper

My word...


Are you going to come up to TH next weekend when we both hit the track again together?

I seems to me that the Boxster will do a 1:54 at Sears, a 2:05 at TH and a 1:50 at Laguna.
Maybe faster?
What do you think?

I don't know if *anyone* could drive my car as fast as Bill in his Boxster.
Is it fair to say that?


KT

Posted by: nine14cats Nov 30 2006, 11:39 PM

Hi Trekkor,

Remember...Dan said it...not me!....

I know Trygve is running 1:48's now in his 2.5L street Boxster with PSS9's. He's a fast driver so he's pushing his car. At Sears he's at 1:57's and at THill he's at 2:11. And that's with a heavy car and an agressive street alignment on Victoracers.

I theoretically should be able to go faster based on power to weight, but as I said, Trygve can drive, so we'll have to see. I'm not so sure mere mortals like us can get a Spec Boxster down to 2:05's at Thill. There's just too many HP sections I believe. My goal someday is to break into the 2:09's with the car.

As everyone has seen, the TT points values need some work. It looks like there will be a group of us working on it coming up, but it will be interesting to see or hear about the reasons why the majority of BillD's proposals didn't go through. He did alot of work on it with data collection, including making what I believe was a convincing argument on points and power to weight comparisons based on the existing PAX system. He pointed out that the Pax places weighting on different models which are not in alignment with how the weighting goes with the points system, yet we run the PAX and don't say anything.

I'll need to reserve further comments until I know more about what passed and didn't, but I'm curious to hear the reasoning behind decisions.

One thing that we can do as a group (914, 911, Boxster, etc) is call your own class. It is there in the rules. Even though several 914 folks always want to hit the track, not many show up. I think there were one or two at the TT's this year. But if you got 3 914's showing up consistently to TT's, that's the same average number in every other class that had enough points to qualify for awards. You could call your own class and go against each other all day long. So even if we are unsuccessful in changing any points values significantly, there is still an avenue for like performing cars and / or models to compete.

Still, with things like Greg Braun's 4 cylinder 914 up against GT3's on a 3 mile track at Thill....some of the assumptions are pretty far off.

Bill P.

Posted by: trekkor Nov 30 2006, 11:47 PM

So, in my car with an absolute pro behind the wheel, what are the fastest lap times we could hope to see?

I'm now:
2:00 Sears
1:55 Laguna
2:15 TH w/Cyclone CCW

Thanks

KT

Posted by: Dan (Almaden Valley) Nov 30 2006, 11:51 PM

Yes I did say that

Next season....we need to get Trekkor, KenH and myself to run together...and any other 914 that is close to the same wt/hp.
We can ask for our own class...I don't care if Trek beats me or not....
I think I have a few things I can still teach him Guess if we are going to compete I should stop instructing him Oh well he will just follow me to get my lines and braking zones any way...

At least we would be running against like cars for a change.
My car would be underpowered but should have a slight weight advantage with the 4 vs the 6 motor...
I would also petititon (ask nicely) to have us placed in the same run group....probably white. Or posssibly green...

Trek,
Laguna 1:50--52
th 2:12 +/-
Sears I have no idea probably 1:57 or so

It is those last 1-2 seconds that take lots of seat time and perfect lines.

Posted by: trekkor Dec 1 2006, 12:06 AM

I will make every effort to run the entire GGR TT series next year.

We will have BIG fun, regardless of the classing.

Using the GGR lap time/MPH calulator is a real eye opener.
Just picking up 3-5 mph overall average and I'm a pro?

Those last few seconds are elusive.


KT

Posted by: Dan (Almaden Valley) Dec 1 2006, 12:12 AM

The lap record for a 2.2L 914-6 running 7 inch wheels with 225 Dot Rs was a 1:48 at Laguna a couple of years back...that was Larry Sharps record...with his old blue car.

That was a very strong lap for that car/motor combo.

Posted by: trekkor Dec 1 2006, 12:19 AM

Yes, and remember I'm on 205 rubber



KT

Posted by: Dan (Almaden Valley) Dec 1 2006, 12:32 AM

QUOTE(trekkor @ Nov 30 2006, 10:19 PM)

Yes, and remember I'm on 205 rubber



KT

Posted by: grantsfo Dec 1 2006, 12:33 AM

I'll plan to go to the GGR events if it isnt to much of a hassel. I'll have to learn T Hill since I have never been to that track. I'll need to rescore my car with new motor and tranny.

Posted by: Dan (Almaden Valley) Dec 1 2006, 12:40 AM

Grant,
just get in line with all the other 914s, learn the line and then you will be waiving bye bye to the rest of us....catch us as you come around to lap us
I will be anxious to see your car next season Grant....when do you start work on it?
I am going over to BillDs this Saturday AM to help him install his 3.2 twin plugged fire breather in his 914-6 that he is preparing to compete against the smurf for TTOD next season.

it will be great fun to get a bunch of us out there again...

there is a picture from about 8 years ago a TH. ~25+ 914s lined up on the grid at TH. All cars were competing that weekend. everything from stockish 1.7s all the way to semi tubed 3.4L big ass slicks. it was quite a picture...hopefully Greg Braun, race914 will find it one of these days and post it....you would all be very impressed.

Posted by: trekkor Dec 1 2006, 12:43 AM

The first TT of '07 at Sears in Feb is just around the corner.

Yay!!


KT

Posted by: Dan (Almaden Valley) Dec 1 2006, 12:45 AM

QUOTE(trekkor @ Nov 30 2006, 10:43 PM)

Posted by: trekkor Dec 1 2006, 12:54 AM

TH is a fantastic venue.
A great track to learn about the limits of your car

Just wait 'til you go through 8, "flat".


KT

Posted by: grantsfo Dec 1 2006, 12:57 AM

QUOTE(Dan (Almaden Valley) @ Nov 30 2006, 10:40 PM)

Grant,
just get in line with all the other 914s, learn the line and then you will be waiving bye bye to the rest of us....catch us as you come around to lap us
I will be anxious to see your car next season Grant....when do you start work on it?
I am going over to BillDs this Saturday AM to help him install his 3.2 twin plugged fire breather in his 914-6 that he is preparing to compete against the smurf for TTOD next season.

it will be great fun to get a bunch of us out there again...

there is a picture from about 8 years ago a TH. ~25+ 914s lined up on the grid at TH. All cars were competing that weekend. everything from stockish 1.7s all the way to semi tubed 3.4L big ass slicks. it was quite a picture...hopefully Greg Braun, race914 will find it one of these days and post it....you would all be very impressed.

Posted by: trekkor Dec 1 2006, 12:57 AM

Posted by: trekkor Dec 1 2006, 01:03 AM

As long as we focus on being safe and having fun on track the GGR classes will not really mean much.


KT

Posted by: Dan (Almaden Valley) Dec 1 2006, 01:11 AM

QUOTE(trekkor @ Nov 30 2006, 11:03 PM)

Posted by: Randal Dec 1 2006, 10:38 AM

QUOTE(trekkor @ Nov 30 2006, 10:54 PM)

TH is a fantastic venue.
A great track to learn about the limits of your car

Just wait 'til you go through 8, "flat".


KT

Posted by: race914 Dec 1 2006, 10:46 AM

QUOTE(Dan (Almaden Valley) @ Nov 30 2006, 11:11 PM)

QUOTE(trekkor @ Nov 30 2006, 11:03 PM)

As long as we focus on being safe and having fun on track the GGR classes will not really mean much.


KT

exactly.

I would just like to see alot of the folks here on the 914 site that are in Norcal to start to come out and compete/participate.

Be it in AX or TT there are lots of 914s here that need to be driven hard for a change.
There is always lots of talk but very little follow thru

5 TT/DEs 9AXs just from GGR let alone all the other Zone 7 regions that put on events.

Come on folks get out there and meet some other 914 folks and drive that car.
Pancakes are OK but surely the Norcal contingent can drive these little cars too.
OK off my soapbox...I will go back on my meds now.

Posted by: nebreitling Dec 1 2006, 11:22 AM

QUOTE(Randal @ Dec 1 2006, 08:38 AM)

QUOTE(trekkor @ Nov 30 2006, 10:54 PM)

TH is a fantastic venue.
A great track to learn about the limits of your car

Just wait 'til you go through 8, "flat".


KT

I'd wait until my tires got real warm before trying 8 flat out. Also I'd creep up on it, given your heaver car.

Posted by: Randal Dec 1 2006, 12:51 PM

QUOTE(nebreitling @ Dec 1 2006, 09:22 AM)

QUOTE(Randal @ Dec 1 2006, 08:38 AM)

QUOTE(trekkor @ Nov 30 2006, 10:54 PM)

TH is a fantastic venue.
A great track to learn about the limits of your car

Just wait 'til you go through 8, "flat".


KT

I'd wait until my tires got real warm before trying 8 flat out. Also I'd creep up on it, given your heaver car.

that, and grant's car should be significantly faster then trek's. turn 8 flat out in a sorted, 230 hp car? might be close.

Posted by: Dan (Almaden Valley) Dec 1 2006, 02:44 PM

QUOTE(Randal @ Dec 1 2006, 08:38 AM)

QUOTE(trekkor @ Nov 30 2006, 10:54 PM)

TH is a fantastic venue.
A great track to learn about the limits of your car

Just wait 'til you go through 8, "flat".


KT

I'd wait until my tires got real warm before trying 8 flat out. Also I'd creep up on it, given your heaver car.

See if you can get John Sidel to be your instructor.

Posted by: trekkor Dec 1 2006, 03:20 PM

It was several trips over two years before "flat in 8" was possible for me.
Riding with John Seidel was what got me thinking about it

Still, I don't attempt it until midway through the session. Scary...


KT

Posted by: Randal Dec 1 2006, 06:09 PM

QUOTE(Dan (Almaden Valley) @ Dec 1 2006, 12:44 PM)

QUOTE(Randal @ Dec 1 2006, 08:38 AM)

QUOTE(trekkor @ Nov 30 2006, 10:54 PM)

TH is a fantastic venue.
A great track to learn about the limits of your car

Just wait 'til you go through 8, "flat".


KT

I'd wait until my tires got real warm before trying 8 flat out. Also I'd creep up on it, given your heaver car.

See if you can get John Sidel to be your instructor.

Randal,
I was the one who taught John to go thru 8 flat out....,years ago when he was still driving the green 2.0L

Grants car given enough HP with the rebuild will be a bit too quick to try that move at least initially.

It is safer to do now with the extra run off room. Years ago it was just the hill side and lots of rocks

I think a judicious lift or quick stab of the brakes will be beneficial for Grant or anyone else starting out at TH.

Slow and steady improvement is the key.. always

Posted by: Dan (Almaden Valley) Dec 1 2006, 06:52 PM

both directions

Posted by: Rotten Robby Dec 24 2006, 08:27 PM

Just spun up my points based on what I am doing over the winter. Question for your GGR heads... I gave myself mod points for non stock induction. I will be going to Dellorto carbs and ditching the EFI. Is this a correct application of this section. Or did I just 'fess up to non-existant forced induction?

Posted by: race914 Dec 24 2006, 09:12 PM

QUOTE(Rotten Robby @ Dec 24 2006, 06:27 PM)

Posted by: Dan (Almaden Valley) Dec 24 2006, 11:13 PM

Greg, you are correct on the induction....but the fenders I would call stock...

Not like you have GT flares with 9s or 10s on the rear....
but then again, not my call anymore

not to mention that the 10 points won't make a difference in class for you anyway...

Interesting that your car and Tricia's end up in the same class....
Hmmmm, 914-6GT clone with 3.2L running against narrow bodied 2.2L 4

Sounds like a fair match to me....

ya, right....that is the problem with our points system I am surprised the GT clone isn't in even a higher class.

Posted by: Dan (Almaden Valley) Dec 24 2006, 11:17 PM

The other problem with the current system is that points are awarded for wheel widths but not tire widths.

So you can run 205s on 5.5s, 6s, 7s ...so you have the same tire patch +or- a .25 inch but you can get nailed for what 100 points because of wheel width.

They are giving points for the wrong thing....for me points would be awarded for tire width.

Posted by: Rotten Robby Dec 24 2006, 11:28 PM

QUOTE(Dan (Almaden Valley) @ Dec 24 2006, 09:17 PM)

The other problem with the current system is that points are awarded for wheel widths but not tire widths.

So you can run 205s on 5.5s, 6s, 7s ...so you have the same tire patch +or- a .25 inch but you can get nailed for what 100 points because of wheel width.

They are giving points for the wrong thing....for me points would be awarded for tire width.

Posted by: Dan (Almaden Valley) Dec 24 2006, 11:43 PM

QUOTE(Rotten Robby @ Dec 24 2006, 09:28 PM)

QUOTE(Dan (Almaden Valley) @ Dec 24 2006, 09:17 PM)

The other problem with the current system is that points are awarded for wheel widths but not tire widths.

So you can run 205s on 5.5s, 6s, 7s ...so you have the same tire patch +or- a .25 inch but you can get nailed for what 100 points because of wheel width.

They are giving points for the wrong thing....for me points would be awarded for tire width.

Dan,
Just a comment on the wheel width vs tire point thing. I don't disagree but I had an interesting experience this last year. I ran an event in the Bumblebee 6 at Charles Schultz. My best tires were on 2 liter Fuchs so I switched out of the Revolutions that are on the Bumblebee. I might as well have been skating on a pond for the traction I could produce. Weeks later I put the Revolutions back on and ran one of our events at Stockton. Very good grip. Even with worn out Victoracers I had better grip with the 7 inch wheel than with newish Yokohama AO32Rs on 5.5.
Perhaps the sidewalls are working better on the 7 inch wheels?
I still have to decide what to do with those wheels. Only one potential buyer is insisting that the second set of wheels stay with the car. Weren't you one of the guys who wanted them?

Posted by: Rotten Robby Dec 25 2006, 11:10 AM

QUOTE(Dan (Almaden Valley) @ Dec 24 2006, 09:43 PM)

QUOTE(Rotten Robby @ Dec 24 2006, 09:28 PM)

QUOTE(Dan (Almaden Valley) @ Dec 24 2006, 09:17 PM)

The other problem with the current system is that points are awarded for wheel widths but not tire widths.

So you can run 205s on 5.5s, 6s, 7s ...so you have the same tire patch +or- a .25 inch but you can get nailed for what 100 points because of wheel width.

They are giving points for the wrong thing....for me points would be awarded for tire width.

Dan,
Just a comment on the wheel width vs tire point thing. I don't disagree but I had an interesting experience this last year. I ran an event in the Bumblebee 6 at Charles Schultz. My best tires were on 2 liter Fuchs so I switched out of the Revolutions that are on the Bumblebee. I might as well have been skating on a pond for the traction I could produce. Weeks later I put the Revolutions back on and ran one of our events at Stockton. Very good grip. Even with worn out Victoracers I had better grip with the 7 inch wheel than with newish Yokohama AO32Rs on 5.5.
Perhaps the sidewalls are working better on the 7 inch wheels?
I still have to decide what to do with those wheels. Only one potential buyer is insisting that the second set of wheels stay with the car. Weren't you one of the guys who wanted them?

I agree with your assesment about the wheel widths....it would be more interesting to have the same tire on each type wheel and use them at the same event. That would yield some interesting data.

We have also been having a discussion over on the GGR board about tire compounds (wear ratings) having more granularities in the points assignments.
>100=steet tires, no points
<100 but > 40, 60 points RA1s, Victoracers, Pilot sport cups, Yoko A048
<40 110 points Hoosiers, 710s, Avons
full race slicks 150points

Or at least something along those lines...


As far as wheels....I am looking for 5.5 4 bolt Fuchs.

Posted by: Dan (Almaden Valley) Dec 25 2006, 11:51 AM

Rob,
can you send me pics of the next best 4 please? How much would you want for 4?
Yes, I have Fuchs now but I am also planning on having a second set...
One with Victors or RA1s and one with V710s

How much does he charge for a full polish?

Thanks

Dan

Merry Christmas

Posted by: ChrisNPDrider Dec 25 2006, 03:41 PM

Merry Christmas! I just got a SA2005 open faced helmet and a Martini Racing polo shirt I can wear to work.

This week in OR with my family I did the GGR mods sheet for my car 5-6 times to see what I could manage and stay in either AX12 or maybe AX13. The 5.5 in wheels vs. 6.5 in wheels is a pretty big deal....and I noticed that after I did this imaginary mod, the system updated it on the "TT" tab of points but NOT the "AX" tab of points. I ended up with 6 emails from GGR and the wrong real tire widths for TT. Which leads to my question

Can the system handle different wheels of different widths (and tires) for running in either TT or AX?

Maybe I just never noticed something about the system that told me which type of racing I was modding for.

Also, do PCA GGR, RR, and all other Zone 7 groups do their own points and mods systems? Is there any kind of points race in RR or overall Zone 7?
OT: I like the green!

Posted by: Dan (Almaden Valley) Dec 25 2006, 05:51 PM

QUOTE(ChrisNPDrider @ Dec 25 2006, 01:41 PM)

Merry Christmas! I just got a SA2005 open faced helmet and a Martini Racing polo shirt I can wear to work.

This week in OR with my family I did the GGR mods sheet for my car 5-6 times to see what I could manage and stay in either AX12 or maybe AX13. The 5.5 in wheels vs. 6.5 in wheels is a pretty big deal....and I noticed that after I did this imaginary mod, the system updated it on the "TT" tab of points but NOT the "AX" tab of points. I ended up with 6 emails from GGR and the wrong real tire widths for TT. Which leads to my question

Can the system handle different wheels of different widths (and tires) for running in either TT or AX?

No you would need to enter your car for each tire/wheel combination.



Maybe I just never noticed something about the system that told me which type of racing I was modding for.

Also, do PCA GGR, RR, and all other Zone 7 groups do their own points and mods systems? Is there any kind of points race in RR or overall Zone 7?
OT: I like the green!

Posted by: Rotten Robby Dec 25 2006, 11:48 PM

QUOTE(Dan (Almaden Valley) @ Dec 25 2006, 09:51 AM)

Posted by: Dan (Almaden Valley) Dec 26 2006, 12:03 AM

Thanks Rob.

I will be waiting for the pics when you get the time. I am in no hurry. sounds good.

I may just take them to wheel techniques here in town...they did some wheels for my Carrera a few years ago.
they came out real nice or I will do them myself again...I did the ones that are currently on my car and they turned out pretty nice for about 4 hours work.


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