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Posted by: trekkor Dec 7 2006, 11:29 PM

Second-hand, never-used

I may weld it in and go to the dark side over the winter...


KT

Posted by: Dan (Almaden Valley) Dec 7 2006, 11:36 PM

bring it on

where did you find it Trek?

I am going to install my petty bar during my motor work...already have all the plates and reinforcement ready...jut need to drill a couple of holes and bolt it in.

Posted by: trekkor Dec 7 2006, 11:45 PM

I bought it from a local Clubber. ( good deal ) thanks!

Also got a second set of 7" steel rims with a better backspace.
225's may fit


KT

Posted by: Dan (Almaden Valley) Dec 7 2006, 11:48 PM

Posted by: trekkor Dec 8 2006, 12:09 AM

Yay!


KT

Posted by: nine14cats Dec 8 2006, 12:41 AM

Good going Trekkor!

Bill P.

Posted by: Mike T Dec 8 2006, 06:00 AM

Looks good. Is that the QA Inspector checking it out?

Mike T

Posted by: URY914 Dec 8 2006, 07:23 AM

I started my cage with a Autopower roll bar. I added oversized plates to the floor and at right angles up the longs before I bolted it in. I felt like the base plates that are on the bar would just push right thru the floor in a big roll over.

Posted by: Brett W Dec 8 2006, 09:52 AM

When you get it put in let me know if it fits as bad as the other bolt in cages I have seen.

Posted by: trekkor Dec 8 2006, 09:58 AM

OK



KT

Posted by: grantsfo Dec 8 2006, 10:06 AM

Posted by: Rotten Robby Dec 8 2006, 10:08 AM

It is the same cage as the one in the Bumblebee and that one fits fine. Pretty much all cages seem to make operation of the targa latches difficult for ham handed fingers.
As for the base plates, Trekkors already reinforced the area with the Engman kit. Do you think more is needed Paul?

Posted by: jgara962 Dec 8 2006, 10:27 AM

I thought that you had already bought the bended tubes for a cage and were going to weld it in yourself?

Posted by: ChrisNPDrider Dec 8 2006, 10:49 AM

Sweet. I think your cat likes it. It would look awesome painted red. I was hoping you would get a full cage before I rode along at Sears.
I could help/watch with the install if needed, especially next weekend the 16th.

Posted by: URY914 Dec 8 2006, 10:59 AM

Na, not if it has something more than just the original floor.

You know if I was to do it all over again I would use a hole saw and drill the longs and feed it thru and weld on the bottom and on the top of the longs. Super strong that way.

1. Drill a 2" hole all the way thru the longs top and bottom.
2. Feed the bar thru the holes without a base plate.
3. Weld a base plate on the bottom of the bar after it is feed thru the holes.
4. Pull the bar up so the base plate is under the car and weld it to the bottom of the floor and long.
5. Cut a plate to fit around the bar on top of the long and weld the plate to the bar and the plate to the top of the long.

Posted by: 914forme Dec 8 2006, 11:12 AM

And if you leave the hole open in the bottom you can mount them cool air powered jacks But you want it to have 3 points and not 4. 3 points make a plane. But for Paul that would be too much wieght. BTW, if you wrap the foot plate down the log and weld it to the floor and plate under the floor, it won't go any where, and if it does you have impacted with enough force you won't survive with out a miracle.

Oh and Dan I want to see pictures of the Petty bar install. Had one on a J-class racer I have buillt helped out alot. But I am looking and wondering how you bolt that in, with out having a big head banger for a strett car? My auto-x car I still drive to the events. My son rides along to and from events now, I want to take it out, so I don't have to worry about him face planting the Petty bar. And my head being used like a softball against the roll bar. Both would suck! Padding yes, but that Petty bar and a passenger do not mix.

Posted by: 914forme Dec 8 2006, 11:16 AM

So is that why you are sellling the one in the Classifieds?

Posted by: SirAndy Dec 8 2006, 12:05 PM

that cage bolts to the floor pan, not the longs ... my cage is welded to the top of the longs (with additional large backing plates) ...

i think it'll work fine, but i'd be using a two piece backing plate on the floor, regardless of bolted or welded.
just sandwich the floor where it's going to bolt to with some good sized steel plates ...

any cage is better than no cage ...
Andy

Posted by: SirAndy Dec 8 2006, 12:09 PM

crappy pic, but you get the idea ... welded to the top of the long using a backing plate. btw. there's another backing plate on the side of the long to help prevent the long from deforming ...




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Posted by: URY914 Dec 8 2006, 12:20 PM

Here is a old racer's trick....

When your rules say, "Bolted-in roll bar only"

Weld a reinforcing plate to the bottom of the floor. Install the roll bar in car and bolt it into place. Then go below and weld the nuts to the plate. This way you are bolting "to" the car's floor not "through" the floor.

Posted by: Randal Dec 8 2006, 12:28 PM

Does it come with a side to side dash bar?

If not are you going to add one?

Posted by: grantsfo Dec 8 2006, 01:14 PM

Whats the thought on the side to side dash bar? I'm likely going to add door bars, but hadnt considered the dash bar.

Posted by: trekkor Dec 8 2006, 01:16 PM

It has no "knee bar". I will add one. Brad suggests 1" tube

This cage bolts to the top of the longs.

It is exactly the same as the one I have now that bolts to the top.
The one I have now had it's cage pieces ground off to make it just a roll bar.
It was an Autopower cage from another car before I bought it.


KT

Posted by: trekkor Dec 8 2006, 01:27 PM

Can I weld this directly to the Engman Long kit or do I need thicker plates that will be welded to the same Long kit?

I will not be bolting it in...Gonna be a full weld up


KT

Posted by: trekkor Dec 8 2006, 01:31 PM

I always thought it was to keep a V8 from coming through the dash on a front engined car...Hmmm


KT

Posted by: Randal Dec 8 2006, 01:48 PM

Our resident engineers should pop up here, but to me without the dash bar you don't have complete continuity.

I'd also bet that the dash bar has a lot to do with eliminating flex, expecially in Trekkor's current configuration.

Posted by: jhadler Dec 8 2006, 02:38 PM

Hey Trek,

What does that cage weigh in at??

-Josh2

Posted by: Brad Roberts Dec 8 2006, 05:17 PM

REMOVE your front targa latches. You dont need them after the cage is installed.

Then.. removing the top becomes a NON issue.

I suggest removing the rear targa pad also prior to install.

This will give you move access to the rear latches.


B

Posted by: Mike T Dec 8 2006, 06:04 PM

and it would give you tie in points for your 5-link unequal length a=arm rear suspension.

Mike T

Posted by: Crazyhippy Dec 8 2006, 06:16 PM

the dash bar is quite helpful in side impacts (spin in front of someone). Even better would be some triangulation from the dash on one side to the floor on the other, but it makes it tough to get your feet to the pedals...

BJH

Posted by: Brett W Dec 8 2006, 07:55 PM

Sorta. My buddy has it in his car and he is too tall to fit in it without having his knees up around his ears. We are going to design a weld in cage that fits much better. I have a couple of customer cars that have Autopower cages and they fit awful. The Kirk cage is much better, but it is still a bolt in cage. I prefer to do weld in cages as I can fit them much closer to the body.

Posted by: Racer Chris Dec 8 2006, 08:08 PM

I don't recommend a knee bar in a cage that has the forward hoops aft of the dash. Positioning the bar below the steering column puts it too close to one's knees, and positioning it above the steering column obscures the gauges. When a roll cage is more fully fitted into the chassis so the forward hoops pass through the dash a cross bar can be positioned at an effective height without danger of impacting body parts.

Posted by: trekkor Dec 8 2006, 08:24 PM

I would guess about 100#'s
I really don't know.

While it was assembled for that picture I shot, I could easily pick the whole thing up.


KT

Posted by: trekkor Dec 8 2006, 08:30 PM

I was thinking about the install today.

How would setting the bolt plates directly on top of the longs, running very long bolts all the way through and out the bottom and then using another bolt plate under the car?

Weld the plates to the car as well.

Input, please.


KT

Posted by: J P Stein Dec 8 2006, 08:38 PM

Well....that's one way.

Posted by: J P Stein Dec 8 2006, 08:40 PM

Another

Posted by: J P Stein Dec 8 2006, 08:42 PM

here

Posted by: Randal Dec 8 2006, 08:44 PM

What you described Paul outlined in an earlier post, but Andy pointed out that your cage bolts directly to the floor.

I wonder if you could (tube) bend that baby outward so that you could bolt it to the longs?

Or it looks like you could section two pieces in to get it wider to fit the longs, but the question would be whether or not there would be enough room, given the angle, to fit.

Wish I was up there with a tape.

Posted by: J P Stein Dec 8 2006, 08:59 PM

gone

Posted by: 914forme Dec 8 2006, 08:59 PM

I would prefer to see you add a plate to the side of the log, like on Andy's cage and other I have seen. That way the log is less likely to collapse. If you add a tube for the bolt ride in then it could be closer to being correct. What Paul was describing is the strongest way you can build the cage. The tube design, going through the logs. A little extra weight here could save your butt, when needed. Bolts by themselves will not work properly and if the log colapses while the cage is in stress, they will loosen and a lose cage does you no good.

BTW, the knee bars will be right there where you don't want it, at your knees. It is bad enough you will probably screw up your leg in a side impact in a teener, due to the shifter, with the knee bars placed below the steering column you run the risk of taking out both legs.

Posted by: trekkor Dec 8 2006, 09:10 PM

He would be mistaken.

53 3/4" wide from outside of bolt plate to outside of bolt plate.

It mounts to the top of the longs.


KT

Posted by: SirAndy Dec 8 2006, 09:11 PM

that's the beauty of a custom build cage. my "knee" bar sits completely behind the stock dash ...

Andy



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Posted by: sww914 Dec 8 2006, 09:14 PM

Posted by: Brett W Dec 8 2006, 09:42 PM

None of these bolt in cages address the major issue with our cars. They break off at your feet in a head on accident. You must go forward to keep the body from crushing under major impact.

Posted by: trekkor Dec 8 2006, 09:54 PM

i don't follow you.
Explain.

if you are talking about an impact that would crush the car all the way past the dash...

Likely not survivable in ANY vehicle.


KT

Posted by: Brett W Dec 9 2006, 11:22 AM

I can't find the pictures here, but there is a couple of pictures of teeners that have been in head on collisions. Notice how they fold up. The way our cars are designed they will fold up at the front of the foot box, because of the way the steering rack is mounted in an open tunnel.

Posted by: Randal Dec 9 2006, 12:16 PM

So Trekkor, are you going to add nice big plates and carry the cage through to the bottom of the car like Paul suggested?

Also are you going to fabricate a dash bar?

BTW you can copy mine, which is easy to do now with everything out of there.
FYI It didn't hit my boney knees and I'm over 6 feet.

And if your adding a dash bar you can then add the bar from the (top) bar in back that goes down to the dash bar. Real safe then.

Posted by: SirAndy Dec 9 2006, 02:18 PM

trek said that his cage bolts to the top of the longs and not the floorpan.
no sandwhich/troughbolts needed then ... just a backing plate ...
Andy

PS: trek, how thick is the engman long kit material? my backing plates are really thick/heavy, much more so than what i remember from seeing the engman kit ...

Posted by: nebreitling Dec 9 2006, 02:28 PM

mounting plates need to be thick and big. read the (SCCA) gcr for necessary dimensions (I forget off top of my head, but probably .120 thickness -- there is also a surface area requirement iirc). i think mine were 3/16" thick. jp's pictures look just right to me, and andy's cage is obviously worth checking out in person. I think you are definitely going to want to weld this thing in.

have you determined if the tubing is dom? what's the OD and wall thickness? just curious -- i think this setup will be just fine for your intended purpose. i might have some extra dom 1.5x095 in the garage that i could sell you undermarket if you need to do any additional fabbing.

Posted by: trekkor Dec 9 2006, 02:43 PM

The Engman kit is under an 1/8" thick.

The base of my cage for bolt-in installs is 3/16" thick.
2 1/2"x 5" bolt plates.

I want to weld these to the top of the longs.
Also use a matching plate under the car that I can bolt through and weld to the underside.

The tube is 1 3/4" OD and 1/8" wall thickness ( .125" )

Nate, I would like to get that tube. How long of a piece( s ) do you have?

Randal, do you have some pics of the knee bar?


KT

Posted by: nebreitling Dec 9 2006, 02:55 PM

i don't know exactly what you're describing, but look at JP's pic of his main hoop base plates: that's how i'd do it given that the autopower hoop already has it's own (too small IMHO) mounting plates. also note his plugwelds and perimeter welds. just a warning, it's a bit tricky managing the heat with a mig when welding the plates (thick) to the longs (not so thick).




cool. thickness is .120 (they don't make .125). total overkill for a full-cage in a 914.



i'll have to check my pile (later this weekend). i also might have some extra plate for your mounting plates.

Posted by: SirAndy Dec 9 2006, 02:58 PM

i'm not randal, but here's a pic of mine ...

note that it completely fits behid the stock dash, as you can see (actually, you can't see it ) in the other picture i posted earlier ...


with dash removed ...


fuzzy pic of dash subframe ...


one more ...



Andy


PS: bolting through the longs will be difficult as they're NOT empty ... you've got the metal parts of the heater tubes in the front and back and inbetween you got the heater mufflers ...
bolting through will destroy them ...

Posted by: nebreitling Dec 9 2006, 03:01 PM

our resident german is correct.

Posted by: trekkor Dec 9 2006, 03:08 PM

Thanks for posting those pics, Andy.
Your cage is one of the nicest out there.

I may have a piece of tube custom bent for the knee bar that goes up and out of the way.

What about fabbing a tube that goes over the top of the dash, behind the guage pod and fitted to the contour of the windshield?


KT

Posted by: brant Dec 9 2006, 04:30 PM

coming out of lurk mode briefly for your bennefit trekkor:

the rear lower tube is perhaps the most important tube on the entire cage:


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Posted by: Joe Ricard Dec 9 2006, 05:10 PM

Brany that is so sweet.
If I were to do a cage it would be just like that only weld in.

Posted by: brant Dec 9 2006, 05:14 PM

Thanks Joe,

it started life as a safety devices bolt in.
(one nice thing about the Safety Devices is that they are lighter and utilize smaller guage seamless tubing)

but now despite those remaining bolts, it is definitely permanent.
most of the foot pads are welded down (the bolts held it in place for welding)
and the front and rear bars are welded in (as well as the side bars)

so it basically will never come out unless something goes seriously wrong and the car is totaled.

brant

Posted by: Brett W Dec 9 2006, 05:22 PM

Hey, Joe, lets do cage for your car. Bring it up and we can do it here.

Posted by: trekkor Dec 9 2006, 05:57 PM

Looks great Brant, I need to do something like that.


KT

Posted by: 914forme Dec 10 2006, 12:50 PM

As always Brant, that is sick!!!

I like the knee bar be welded into the dash area. And I really like your lets incorporated stiffing of the logs with our cage plates. I still like the plates going all the way down to the floor like Brant's rear plate does. You can add a plate under the car if you think you need to, and then the log will not crush under the cage. You could drop a car on it and not crush the logs.

Brant why you like the lower bar so much? I have my ideas, but just want verification.

Posted by: brant Dec 10 2006, 01:41 PM

The rear lower bar (behind the seats) is about safety and not chassis stiffness.

Look at most cages, and all bolt in cages.
If a race 914 is T-boned at the rear edge of the door, the chassis can move in a foot. This observation is based on actual 914 race cars from colorado.

now think about the driver.
the drivers elbow and hip are very much within that crumple zone.

The lower firewall structure is the only thing keeping this from happening on a stock chassis. Its not up to the task. The rear lower bar ties the cage back into itself and adds A LOT of strength and safety.

in my opinion race cars are more likely to get T-boned, then they are to go on their top.
Thus I feel this bar is more important than the hoop parts of the cage from a driver safety standpoint.

brant

Posted by: Dan (Almaden Valley) Dec 10 2006, 01:51 PM

Every stockish 914 I have ever seen roll over, the targa bar remained intact so the rear hoop didn't even come into play..the hoop that is important is the windshield hoop for roll overs.

Posted by: Randal Dec 10 2006, 02:52 PM

The cage was put in when the car was stock. As I've said I've never hit the dash bar.

Posted by: grantsfo Dec 10 2006, 09:08 PM

Thanks Brant and Randal, Those cages look great!

Posted by: Jeroen Dec 11 2006, 02:20 PM

JP, does this mean you cut your windshield?
(maybe I missed the post)

Posted by: PatW Dec 11 2006, 04:13 PM

Not that I know Jack Sh!t anymore but, does anyone bring their 914 to Tony at
TC Design for cage install?

Posted by: jd74914 Dec 11 2006, 04:48 PM

i think andy has a tony c cage

Posted by: trekkor Dec 11 2006, 04:53 PM

Randal does, as well.



KT

Posted by: PatW Dec 11 2006, 05:09 PM

I took a ride in Rob Ways car before he sold it.. had a Petty <sp?> Bar installed. Stiff as a board IMHO.

Posted by: J P Stein Dec 11 2006, 06:21 PM

history.

Posted by: trekkor Dec 24 2006, 01:10 AM

I'm still in the same spot. No cage install as of yet.

Maybe in the next week or two.


KT

Posted by: Dan (Almaden Valley) Dec 24 2006, 01:25 AM

Well Trek, you suck as bad as I do....I have yet to get my motor out...now it looks like it might be a few more weeks before I get it out...

My car might be part of a 914 display at the San Jose Auto Show in mid Jan '07.

Still waiting to get details...

Anyway....have a Merry Christmas and I will see you soon...

feels familiar here somewhat...

Posted by: Randal Dec 29 2006, 12:10 PM

Trekkor - my cage was built by a guy (Ken Brown) up in Reno that does lots of work on historic racers. Great fabricator.

This was before I knew Tony, which is where I would go now.

Randal

Posted by: Mueller Dec 30 2006, 02:49 PM

My old car with the TCDesignfab.com cage (now DarrenD has it)

Posted by: crash914 Dec 30 2006, 06:53 PM

Just a comment on crashes...

I did have a head on in my '74. body was tweaked in at least 3 planes...the left from wheel was pushed in at least a foot. Took out my left foot. 1 big screw later it is ok...this was about 14 years ago when I wasn't as smart.

it would be good to have some beef down to keep the wheels from moving to the center line... The dash bar should help, but I would like to see something further forward perhaps at the front of the wheel wells...