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Posted by: grantsfo Feb 6 2007, 07:35 PM

I couldn't resist creating this anonymous poll!

Posted by: Dan (Almaden Valley) Feb 6 2007, 07:40 PM

I wonder if you will get any responses Grant?

An interesting poll considering all the discussions we have had lately about rules and classification...

Posted by: Crazyhippy Feb 6 2007, 07:42 PM

nope, class me w/ the regular 2liters...

Posted by: drew365 Feb 6 2007, 08:30 PM

I think you would get a lot of votes for:

I use creative interpretation of the rules.

Posted by: nine14cats Feb 6 2007, 08:31 PM

Nope...no need to cheat for me...no amount of cheating would overcome my lack of talent.

As a driver....I suck!....

Posted by: grantsfo Feb 6 2007, 09:47 PM

What's funny is I build pretty good relationships with mechanics who work on my car. I hear about all the stuff that goes unreported in our region. I have been encouraged not to report some of the modifcations on my car by several mechanics saying everyone does this. I refuse to knowingly under report modifications. I recently realized that last year I misclassified my car due to not properly classifying conversion (I started with 914/6 base rather than 1.8), but it wouldnt have changed my overall classification last year.

I know in talking with many inexpereinced GGR particpants that they under report. Many people just class their car on base points when they infact have suspension or tire mods. I even know of a certain 997 driver who classed his car as a Boxster at an event last year!

Posted by: grantsfo Feb 6 2007, 09:51 PM

Example of a creative interpretation?

Posted by: Dan (Almaden Valley) Feb 6 2007, 09:54 PM

I know a guy with a '98 Boxster with a factory 996 (3.4L) conversion...car used to belong to a factory rep...
the new owner knows about the motor but still classes the car as a stock 2.5L.
He is a smart guy....doesnt he think anyone he has told about his car looks at the points? Go figure.
Every mechanic in this area can tell you some pretty interesting stories. Especially from the late '80s and '90s.
Even some local machinists have been known to tell you about some tricks.

Problem with our current points system is that some folks are making an honest attempt to point their cars but there is so much interpretation out there that you can completely mis-class your car without really meaing to....like the engine swap/increase section.

Posted by: SirAndy Feb 6 2007, 09:57 PM

not intentionally. takes the fun out of it, somehow ...
Andy

Posted by: Andyrew Feb 6 2007, 10:12 PM

naw.. just build a bad ass car, label it as "stock until proven otherwise" and have your oponents go at it..

Let em figure it out..

Posted by: nebreitling Feb 6 2007, 10:28 PM

cheating at the club-level (especially AX/TT) seems pretty fucking retarded.

Posted by: Dan (Almaden Valley) Feb 6 2007, 10:32 PM

You would be really surprised Nathan...

Posted by: nebreitling Feb 6 2007, 10:47 PM

really? wow, that surprises and disappoints me. -- there's NOTHING on the line. no $$$, no sponsorship, no career -- at best one would get some local attention.

hard to flat-out cheat in the kart world. won't make it past the scales, won't make it out of parc ferme. engines can be ripped open at whim. that's not to say that there aren't some gray areas that people are happy to exploit...

Posted by: Dan (Almaden Valley) Feb 6 2007, 10:50 PM

amazing what some folks will do and spend for a $10 trophy at the end of the season.

Posted by: Chris Hamilton Feb 6 2007, 11:36 PM

We don't cheat, we just might have a few things not covered anywhere in the points system or rules...

Posted by: Dan (Almaden Valley) Feb 6 2007, 11:40 PM

that is certainly an interesting comment...if they are not covered by the rules how about just filling us all in?
Maybe we can all learn something

Posted by: nebreitling Feb 6 2007, 11:47 PM

that makes sense to me. there are a lot of suspension tricks and weight removal issues that are not covered in the rules.

Posted by: Chris Hamilton Feb 6 2007, 11:47 PM

That would be breaking the NDA.

I'd just say our car is the result of an meticulous attention to detail. Many small things like chiseling out every single scrap of body sealant from the floors, doors, underside, engine bay, front trunk, probably a good few hundred hours of work lightening every scrap on the car, isn't something counted anywhere on a rules or points sheet.
There are many other little goodies there, more than I can count which all add up to make it such a complete package. Anything that can be lowered in the car has been lowered, everything that can be moved towards the middle has been moved towards the middle, however we take nearly the same points as the 914 owner who took out his passengers seat and floor mats.
Take Andy's car for example. Last I remember his street driven 914 had nearly the same number of points as us because when he took a couple pieces out of the interior that counted as "stripping the interior" or somesuch.
That's the kind of thing I mean.

Posted by: Dan (Almaden Valley) Feb 7 2007, 12:05 AM

and that is exactly what is wrong with our current rules....
too many loop holes when it comes to lightening.
Only 20 points to strip your interior....
no padding, no door panels, no back pad, no carpet...20 points
to do what you folks did,,,,,20 points.
there needs to be more granularity with respect removing weight, DOT R tires, and a few other items. 100WR RA1s should not get the same points as 710s.

removing your windshield and or the entire windshield frame should be points....but it isn't right now.

It helps when you (royal you) has a major part in writing the new rules....doesn't it?

Posted by: grantsfo Feb 7 2007, 01:06 AM

...NDA

Posted by: grantsfo Feb 7 2007, 01:18 AM

Booyah!!!

Posted by: 914forme Feb 7 2007, 07:12 AM

What about stiffening, last year my class it was +1 now +3, this is NASA TT/x but the system works the same, just closer point spreads. But I used the most gray area in stiffening. Which continues on to this day. I have to carry 2150 lbs., but I can weigh in at that weight so the goal for me is use it the best I can. Lower it, replace it with stiffening, or other beneficial parts.

I am tearing through the final rules today, and we will find the Grays and exploit them.

I push the limits everywhere, not just in racing. Cheat no, I take all my points, but I use them to the best of their specific abilities. So stiffening for 1+ lead to rear arm pickup stiffening, sway bar reinforcements. And an egmann kit, now a roll bar with a few well placed added bars to make the chassis that much better with out breaking the rules and taking more points. I also max my points out for my class. If you going to run run hard, run long, and don't leave anything behind.

Posted by: Matt Romanowski Feb 7 2007, 10:27 AM

Kart people are the biggest cheaters. There is a whole industry of ceramic bearings that are made to look like standard bearings so people can cheat. Most kart cheaters are so good you can't tell.

Posted by: Joe Ricard Feb 7 2007, 10:53 AM

Do you think I run X prepared because I am dishonest?
I could run D Street Prepared and litterally kick ass over everyone. You don't get to beat your friends by cheating to many times before they take it personal.

I am building the fastest car I can. Class it wherever I'm in it for TTOD cuz PAX is for slow kids.

Posted by: Randal Feb 7 2007, 11:53 AM

You guys have done a great job making a super competitive car. And it goes without saying that it must have taken a huge amount of work to get it all done.

I, and I know Bill as well, have always thought your group showed great team effort. Very impressive.

Posted by: nebreitling Feb 7 2007, 01:05 PM

so true -- but that's not flat-out lying about the big numbers and such. the important things are hard to get past inspection -- the details are "gray". want to cheat? go vintage racing!


back to blyholder/hamilton, the little blue car team has their shit together, no doubt. they've deserved every one of their wins.

Posted by: grantsfo Feb 7 2007, 03:05 PM

There's just a group of us this year that are going to make them work harder for that win.

Posted by: drew365 Feb 7 2007, 07:20 PM

The competition director for our local POC got caught cheating just before the last event. He ended up resigning his post. I don't know why but they still gave him the class championship. He's in my class, but I don't care, I'm a backmarker to him.

Posted by: Dan (Almaden Valley) Feb 7 2007, 07:38 PM

Rather ironic that he was the ''competition director" don't you think?

the guy who is supposed to help administer the rules for competition...at least in our region of PCA

Posted by: alpha434 Feb 7 2007, 09:16 PM

Guys.

Get some old pictures from famous race cars of the 70's.

Note. IMSA, SCCA, etc. are NOT allowed any sort of front spoiler. This means formula-1 spoilers all the way to tiny lips on the bodywork.

'Nother note. They all have them.

Cheating isn't just wrong. It's tradition. Carry the flame, men.

EDIT: Just running a higher displacement and not telling the officials is retarded. It's way too easy to catch, too simple, and it doesn't even necessarily benefit you at all. Cheat smart, not cheap.

Posted by: nebreitling Feb 7 2007, 09:50 PM

at the end of the day, the fact remains that very few people at the club level are really going to bond your car and tear it down.

Posted by: sww914 Feb 7 2007, 11:17 PM

When I built my car I built it to the rules. Later they changed my rules and I was cheating on 1 point, but I never changed my car to fit the new rules. Now they changed the rules again and I'm legal again, so I'm not a cheater anymore.

Posted by: Dan (Almaden Valley) Feb 7 2007, 11:27 PM

that is the real problem a constantly moving target.

Posted by: 914forme Feb 8 2007, 06:02 AM

Amen to that brother you are preachin to the choir

Posted by: theol00 Feb 12 2007, 11:18 AM

I read somewhere in a magazine where a few "old" SCCA racers where taking about that. I really got a kick out of one "old" chaps comment... " what do you mean ...cheating?...I thought we were racing?...and not trying to go to heaven.." One point of view...

Posted by: flesburg Feb 13 2007, 07:33 PM

Racing is all about cheating.

There are more production "F" class cars that should be in GT3 or even GT2 class than you can count, maybe all of them at any given PCA Club Race.

Our little 200 hp 2000 lb 914 however, has to run in GT3 where it is TOTALLY uncompetitive. GT3 is full of 2000 lb 500 HP cars that can pull 9000 rpm.

That is why we only do DE stuff, and go as fast as we can, and work on beating our OWN lap times (IE improving our driving skills).

Winning races (especially ones with no prize money, or even a trophy) at any cost (ie cubic dollars and cheating on the rules) is all about ego gratification, not competing fairly.

Remember Vince L.? "Winning isn't everything, it's the ONLY thing", and "Show me a good looser, and I'll show you a LOOSER".

Posted by: DerekKim Feb 14 2007, 03:18 AM

Heck yeah! PAX is for the slow kids like me! It gives us a fighting chance against the crazier cajuns. C stock baby. I can't wait for the 24th! how many other people can start their season this early?

Posted by: Rotten Robby Feb 14 2007, 10:25 AM

Not intentionally... Mr. Baker pointed out that I had missed a few things when I classed my car on the GGR site. I reclassed it the next chance I got. It doesn't much matter to me though... I am more interested in beating the 914's and not really aware of who is in my class. I really gauge my performance by how close I can get to TTOD which is usually Steve N. in my little world. SCCA is a different feeling though. I seem to be in a class with Miatas and apparently inexperienced Miata pilots because I have beaten them pretty consistently.

Posted by: grantsfo Feb 15 2007, 10:31 PM

Anyone know what kind of additive they used?

http://www.showbuzz.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/02/15/people_hot_water/main2480661.shtml

Posted by: Chris Hamilton Feb 16 2007, 09:22 AM

I have no idea what the additive was, however my opinion is that the whole thing must be fake or set up or something. It just doesn't make sense that someone with as much experience as this guy or his crew would imagine for a minute that they could get away with this.

A few possible scenarios:
1) He was set up by whoever put it in to make him look bad.
2) He was actually stupid enough to think they wouldn't check his gas ( VERY unlikely)
3) It's a fake publicity stunt, and NASCAR is trying to ride the "performance enhancing drugs" media craze. This isn't impossible since, if I remember correctly, NASCAR is owned by one of the companies that does Pro Wrestling.

Posted by: byndbad914 Feb 19 2007, 06:54 PM

weird - I don't think it was directly in the fuel. They said a tech found it reaching in the manifold to check for loose parts (which btw, what does that mean? There are no parts inside of an intake manifold) so I guess that maybe meant they pulled the carb/spacer/plate or whatever and he was reaching in to make sure he didn't drop a nut down there or something???

Anyway, he found it in the intake, which implies to me maybe it is some sort of "putty" with octane boosters in it that when the fuel/air mixture passes thru the intake runner it blends a little bit in at a time... and wasn't directly in the fuel or injected into the manifold. I mean, you really wouldn't be able to inject into the manifold as that would be almost impossible to visually hide anything on those "spider" intakes they have now unless they machined something into the bottom plate and had lines running on the underside of the manifold/internal to the valley area.

He seems like a pretty standup guy so I really can't imagine he had anything to do with that. Toyota crews just knew they were gonna suck and somewhere some guys got a dumb idea. You can bet Toyota is TICKED over that and the other teams that got caught.

edit - oh yeah, and on the point of cheating, IMHO I don't care about rules as much as what is basic to all on a human level = respect for others - if you are knowingly cheating you are an asshole and scum of the earth. Period. And you know who you are. You have no respect for your fellow racer and I have no respect for you. May the gods of kharma put you into the wall and leave you with a C2 fracture. I understand if someone makes a mistake in classifying their car and fixes it and moves on, but if you knowingly do that, you are shit.

On that note, I race to have fun and enjoy company of others with that same passion, so win or lose, I just want to have a good time and maybe that is why cheating is just so far out of my realm of reality.

Posted by: 914forme Feb 20 2007, 12:30 PM

PCA Parade Auto-xs I have seen peiple loose postions due to protests. And I know people who have protested in hopes of bumping up to grab the trophy. It was a low ball dirty move I did not like it then and still don't, PCA tech shoould catch these things in stock classes. True you can't tell all of them, but this was an EFI system, that was never offered on a 914. But that is okay in 93 I had to give a 914 concours judge a little crap for saying his car was a 914-6. It took me two seconds to bust that bubble, lets see a 1971 914-6 with out the proper S/N number Just calll it what it was a conversion and move on, it was a nice looking conversion, but to try and pass it off as a real -6 give me a break.

Unfortuantly cheating happens at all levels.

And it seams fame, and greed get a lot of people wraped up.

Posted by: Brando Mar 5 2007, 12:10 PM

When I was doing AX every other month with the riverside region PCA, the little kid in me thought "I could just class myself as A stock and get a little advantage." But, over what? I'm the only 914 that runs in A class. After adding swaybars that bumped me to... A stock. Great.

Now with the soon-to-be-rollin engine, I will be bumped to C prepared, a class where I have some competition. So it actually benefits me to classify my car accurately.

The kid in me thought: "I can get a bit of an advantage by not claiming some points."

But the Man in me thought: "Why not be honest and have some real competition?"

Cheating truly takes away from the skill of a driver. It shows that the person doing such really mis-spent their time looking for loopholes or playing with their pocketbook than being a better driver -- and to me that's what racing (TT/Club Race/AX/Daytona) is all about, who is the best driver?

Posted by: Dan (Almaden Valley) Mar 5 2007, 01:47 PM

with my 2056 build with stock D-jet I could have continued to class my car as last year....lets face it. It will look totally stock from the outside.
But the honest part of me jumped in and said why not class it with some very high HP cars and still whip there butts....

So, I have bumped up 3 classes in GGR/Zone 7 PCA classifications. It will be a little more challenging this year. Boxsters on M030 suspensions and DOTRs will be some of my competition.

Posted by: grantsfo Mar 5 2007, 03:57 PM

Demick's car isnt much different than yours and he has placed in top ten when he drives GGR events with his 2056cc with stock injection. You shouldnt have any problems going after similar times as him.

If those Boxsters do beat you I'm going to be worried about you losing your driving sharpness.

Posted by: Dan (Almaden Valley) Mar 5 2007, 04:39 PM

we should be pretty comparable

my car has Mahle cylinders and KB pistons, I think Demick used the Chinese P/Cs and he runs SSIs and muffler where as I have Eurorace headers.
I believe he runs an off the shelf Webb cam where I have a Raby 9550.
he runs 6 inch wheels I run 5.5s
he has an adjustable front sway bar and I have a stocker.

but overall the cars should be pretty even.

now as to the drivers.

Posted by: Matt Meyer Mar 6 2007, 06:56 PM

I generally abhor cheating.

But I will probably cheat when (if) I run AX this year. The PO put in hydraulic lifters and a cam. I believe that puts me into SM2 per the SCCA rules used by the local club.

I'll justify this because I’ve only been to one AX before so I’ll just be giving points to whoever I run against. Here the more people you beat the more points you get.

The biggest reason I’d cheat is I’d rather run with and work corners with the other 914 owners, X-19, and MG owners who run the historic class than the Corvette C6 owners in SM2.

Posted by: 914forme Mar 6 2007, 07:33 PM

Matt don't worry about it, that Hyd. cam is doing you no favors in the performance arena so I don't think your going to be in trouble. Now if you where running a 2270 with stock EFI, or aftermarket EFI disguised to look like the stock EFI then that would be bad.

Posted by: Brando Mar 8 2007, 01:07 AM

Kind of wierd, in some PCA regions/zones they don't specify the points for injection. Here it used to be if you went from carbs to FI, you got some points. But FI to carbs... no penalty. Changed this year to go both ways.

BUT there is no clarity on switching from one FI system to another in my area... FI is FI appearantly.

Posted by: Matt Meyer Mar 9 2007, 11:37 AM

I'm not worried. I won't get protested becuase my driving will suck and they will get extra points for beating me.

But technically I'll be cheating. And it has the "hot" hydraulic cam that works with stock FI.

Posted by: ppickerell Mar 13 2007, 09:08 PM

Unfortunately the guy that built my motor is a convicted felon and can't tell me what's in it exactly.

Posted by: 914wizard Mar 13 2007, 09:40 PM

OMG thats funny. Why is it that throughout history of aircooled Porsches that a small contingent of people fit that description?

Posted by: JPB Apr 8 2007, 08:10 AM

Cheating? If I do, you'll have to figure it out.

Posted by: Nicke Nilsson Aug 15 2007, 10:23 AM

Icke sa Nicke....skulle inte falla mig in att fuska..då får man välja en annan klass..Nu sysslar vi med Historisk Racing och då följer vi ju FIAs regler...Basta..
Do you agree..??

Posted by: BMXerror Aug 15 2007, 01:13 PM

If that's your attitude then you should go play in NASA's PT Unlimited class. If you think you're that creative an engineer and that good a driver, then be a man and put it out there. Out and out unlimited racing definitely has it's place, but so do performance classifications. IMHO, you're not a man if you sneak around behind everybody's back to win a race in the kiddie pool. That's like an MMA Champion picking fights at a school yard. It doesn't prove a damn thing about you except you're too play with the big boys.... too insecure to compete in a situation where, GOD FORBID, you might lose!
I haven't really had a chance to race yet, but when I do, I'm going to play it strait. I'm confident in my abilities in car preparation, and my potential in driving. I also know that cheating won't allow me to completely meet that potential. I'm confident that WHEN (not if) I lose, it won't completely crush me, because I have more important concerns in my life than what a few local, low budget, amateur racers think of me, and I already know that I'm not important enough for any of them to give a rats ass where I place anyway. My $.02
Mark D.

Posted by: J P Stein Aug 28 2007, 06:13 PM

It's nice to think in black & white.
I thought my car might be light for XP but was too lazy to prove it (the old ignorance is bliss defense), so ran most all the season in XP.
Doing the NT event , I had the oportunity to have the car weighed and it was 40 ish pounds light by their scales so then ran EM.....one fella who had weighed their car said the SCCA scales were 50 lbs off..(light)..go figure.
Now one can make a federal case out of my cheating, but remember it when you find yourself just a little bit pregnant.

Posted by: Joe Ricard Aug 28 2007, 07:38 PM

I had my car weighed several times with Truck scale
I had it weighed on a private corner balance scale it jived with my calculations.
I weighed it at the National tour. pretty much jived again +/- a couple pounds. 1743 with about 4 gallons of gas.

Posted by: grantsfo Aug 28 2007, 07:49 PM

JP, I think your safe until SCCA starts testing for steroids.

Posted by: J P Stein Aug 28 2007, 08:23 PM

I'm safe till they start testing for hemorhiods.....

Posted by: Joe Ricard Aug 29 2007, 06:27 AM

If any of you watch F1 you might have noticed that the drivers are required to weigh after the qualifyng effort and after the race. What do they use? Corner balance scale they just stand on one of them with helmet and Hans.
No reason you can't do that when the accuracy of the scale is in question.

Posted by: hedfurst Aug 29 2007, 12:55 PM

Good book by famous all around driver Mark Donahue and ghost writerThe Unfair Advantage. Donahue was the 1st IROC champ. His racing credentials included everything from hill climbs to F1, even competed in stockcars. As an engineer he worked on and drove the Porsche 917. Gives you a good grasp of early motorsports and exploitation of "loopholes." There are reasons why the rules are so stringent.

Posted by: Brett W Sep 4 2007, 08:36 PM

What point do you draw the line between "cheating" and maximum preparation. When you build a car that takes every rule and lack of rule in to account and show up with said car and start whoopin' ass, people will protest. I have seen very few cars that do this, but I see plenty of slower people protesting these cars.

Posted by: Blood red 914-6gt Sep 5 2007, 02:24 AM

If you wanted to cheat up here you will get caught. I run my car up a class anyway. The people up here know everyones cars rather well, and if anything is done someone hears about it anyway.

Posted by: J P Stein Sep 9 2007, 11:12 PM

Sure, if you farm out your mods. Your classing is pretty simple. My car screams MODIFIED....duh.
If someone asked me what them 2 lumps bolted to the passenger floor are, I'd prolly tell em' "SCCA reqiured footrests".

Don't matter much, tho. The motor went South today.....no extra holes, but runs bad.
The season is over for us.

Posted by: Blood red 914-6gt Sep 9 2007, 11:32 PM

Sorry to hear that JP. Still would love to have you come up to one of the PCA events in Bremerton. You can codrive my car if you ever want to come.

Posted by: dinomium Mar 5 2008, 12:31 AM

I remember a Side Glances from a few years ago titled Fishing with Dynamite by Peter Egan. I have to say cheating a club level racing is just like cheating at golf. The guy or gal in the mirror knows the true score. If you are ok with that, then the point is REALLY moot!

Posted by: grantsfo May 14 2008, 02:44 PM

Funny thing is that club racing has become fairly big business for some.

Posted by: tesserra May 18 2008, 05:59 PM

Nobody cares if you cheat unless you beat them or start finishing in the top 3.
So if you are a slow driver or your mods are ineffective at lowering your times, go ahead and cheat.

Posted by: Phoenix 914-6GT May 19 2008, 04:11 PM

Why? Wouldn't that add insult to injury?

Posted by: koozy Sep 8 2008, 10:28 AM

I don't cheat and I don't expect to win any races. I just plain stink, but it's fun. Hell, I was stupid enough to do some mods that jumped me up into classes that I will never see mid range. Shoulda stuck with stock but eh... what the hell. Fun, loud and kinda slow. But the loud part makes me think I'm going faster than I really am... ha ha ha