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Posted by: URY914 Aug 15 2007, 08:41 PM

I can't leave well enough alone. It's 66" wide, 52" from the ground to the top. I cut some masonite supports which will be 1/8" aluminum, and used a piece of cardboard for an end plate. I haven't decided on end plate material, could be CF, FG, lexan, aluminum, whatever.


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Posted by: URY914 Aug 15 2007, 08:42 PM

It's about the same height as the engine scoop.


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Posted by: URY914 Aug 15 2007, 08:47 PM

The whole thing will be wrapped in two layers of fiberglass cloth. I'm going to add a wicker bill to the trailing edge too. I'll add a diagonal between the support plates.

Posted by: alpha434 Aug 15 2007, 09:34 PM

You left all those damn wood supports in there, didn't you??? !!!

How much weight did you add? Is the spoiler on some sort of quick change bracket, so you can take it back off?

Posted by: URY914 Aug 15 2007, 09:39 PM

I haven't weighed it yet but the wing along is only about 5 pounds. Not a big deal. I had to leave the wood ribs in it, as that is what maintains the shape.

I can remove the wing from the supports by pulling four pins.

Posted by: Rob Ways Aug 16 2007, 08:25 AM

Nice work!

Don't be surprised though if you get rubbernecked by jealous ricers!!!

Posted by: 914forme Aug 16 2007, 10:11 AM

Isn't that tool chest support going to slow you down? I could not resist.

Yeah alpha wood is a little heavier than it might need to be, but for a lot of people it is what they have, and can work with. Sure he could have made a mold and laid them up in CF, or built a buck and mae them out of AL, but for the first attempt I think it will work rather well. Each revision will get nicer, but if it does the job, I don't see the wood being a design flaw. And at 5lbs, I don't think Paul will noitcie the weight difference at all. I do believe he adds weight to make his class minimum. ICBW on that.

Posted by: Joe Ricard Aug 16 2007, 01:59 PM

It matches the rest of the car

Posted by: URY914 Aug 16 2007, 03:12 PM

I knew someone would comment on my tool box. That is my "pit box" not exactly NASCAR level but it hold my jumper battery, tool box and other crap at the track.

I agree with you 100% on the wood. I'm not going to LeMans here. It's low-tech car that I drive on Sunday. Sure I could have spend 10x the amount of time and money and it would have weighed 3 pounds and when done it would have performed just the same. Actually I've was thinking of making a smaller wing to mount above this one, but now I'm thinking to make this one the top wing and make a larger bottom wing.

Posted by: URY914 Aug 16 2007, 03:15 PM

Joe, I've been waiting for your comment and that is the best you and do?
I'm a little disappointed quite frankly.

Posted by: 914forme Aug 16 2007, 03:56 PM

Thats cause Joe is feeling a little wing envy. After all he ripped his off a civic in a parking lot. Only thing he is missing is the shopping cart list on the right front door, and ????? on the rear.

Of course I have nothing on the back of mine so I am going to go take one off a Plymoth Super Bird, hey its orange it would match the pumkin.




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Posted by: 914forme Aug 16 2007, 03:59 PM

Ah crap my translation joke did not turn out. the ???? in the above where supposed to be this. According the Goolge it is supposed to be Japanese Symbols translated into Japanese Symbols.


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Posted by: Joe Ricard Aug 16 2007, 04:03 PM

Yea I have wing envy.

Actually more like "Wish I could fiberglass as good as Paul".

Going to make a rear trunk lid and glass in stantions for the wing I have. Then maybe make a bigger version of the itty bitty Civic wing I have now.

Posted by: alpha434 Aug 16 2007, 10:39 PM

Balsa.

Posted by: URY914 Aug 17 2007, 09:08 AM

Pine

Posted by: maf914 Aug 17 2007, 01:43 PM

Paul,

It looks like you're going to need some more downforce up front for balance. What do you have planned for that? More front splitter?

Posted by: URY914 Aug 17 2007, 02:48 PM

Actually I think the wing will balance it out. The problem has been high speed oversteer so I think the front sticks pretty good.

Posted by: 914forme Aug 17 2007, 05:20 PM

Man Alpha, you must scrounge better than the rest of us, titanium, and now you want stringers made of balsa. Pine is easy to find, cheap, Paul probably sourced it the same way he did his splitter. Whos missing a sign???

Joe, I understand, my fiberglass skills are no existent, so I would build it out of AL, and spend 100 times more than simple wood/ composite build. Actually they are pretty good, but I just don't like how things turn out. Maybe I need to lower my standards and realize the rest of the car is a POS so why not the wing deck lids, fenders, doors, etc.....

After all I am not building a car as nice as Brant - in steel, or Joe and his 914RS out of New Mexico, I am more of a beater kinda guy.

Posted by: Joe Ricard Aug 18 2007, 06:17 AM

I just make mine go fast, Sexiest thing in my car is my new co-driver.

Wife will graduate from her RX-8 and start Autocrossing the 914 this year.

Posted by: blitZ Aug 18 2007, 05:30 PM

Starting to look like a Chaparral, Jim Hall would be pleased.

Posted by: URY914 Aug 18 2007, 05:41 PM

Thanks. I'm sure the ricer crowd will like it too.

Posted by: URY914 Sep 1 2007, 10:41 PM

I picked up my aluminum uprights this week. Today I spent about 2 hours getting them to work with the wing and the tubes I welded on the back of the car. What a royal PITA. I didn't help that tubes are not the same distance off the ground. And somehow the mounting plates that I built into the wing are a little different. Here it is held together with clamps and chewing gum.

Next I need to cover the wing with fiberglass and make the end plates.






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Posted by: URY914 Oct 11 2007, 07:31 AM

Time for an update on the wing ding.

The end plates are almost completed. I used carbon fiber cloth (thanks Larry) for the outside surface. I placed the cloth on a place of glass wetted it out with resin and layered a piece of foam board and several layers of f/g mat and finishing cloth. Low tech but it worked. If I had more c/f cloth I'd been able to make them much thinner but I had to work with what I had on hand.

I popped it off the glass, trim the edges and polish the face. They are VERY pretty and shinny.




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Posted by: URY914 Oct 11 2007, 07:40 AM

The wing itself was wrapped with several layers of fine f/g cloth and sanded smooth. I used "Cap-o-Sil" for the first time as a f/g filler. The stuff is like f/g powder that is added to your resin mix to thicken it up. You can add it until it is thick as cold 20/50 oil. It stays where you want it with out running down the surface of the piece. Gunnar Racing uses it a lot on thier projects.

The end plates will held on with socket head cap bolts thru the plate and into the end of the wing. I added threaded inserts into the wing ends than glued and glassed them in. The plywood end piecs are used to hold the wing while working on it.




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Posted by: URY914 Oct 11 2007, 07:54 AM

I added a piece of flat aluminum stock as the diagonal support between the uprights. The makes the entire structure very ridgid. I'll drill a series of 1" holes in it to give it that racer look. I cut and fitted the aluminum pieces under the wing which will be drilled or slotted so the angle of the wing can be adjusted.

The most work has been in keeping wing, struts and endplates true and square with the car. The wing needed to be centered on the centerline of the car of course. The struts need to be vertical and stright with car. The end plates need to be parellel with the side of the car. And it all needs to be mounted level with the ground. It is not like you just bolt all the stuff together and it's right.



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Posted by: ChrisNPDrider Oct 11 2007, 01:49 PM

Sweet!
I hope those flat braces are strong enough. I guess you could estimate whatever lbs downforce at 65 mph, then stack some weights on them while mocked up and see how stable it is.

What type of resin did you choose for the carbon fiber piece, polyester or epoxy?

Posted by: URY914 Oct 11 2007, 02:12 PM

The struts should be OK to support the downforce. Even if something were to happen I won't be flying off into the grandstands on the Indy front stright.

I used cheap 'ol poly resin. No reason to go with the good stuff.

Posted by: Aaron Cox Oct 11 2007, 06:24 PM

thought about cable braces in an X pattern?

Posted by: URY914 Oct 11 2007, 08:23 PM

Yes. Next question.

Posted by: Mugs914 Oct 12 2007, 12:37 AM

Nice work Paul! Can't wait to hear how it works out.

I thought about that too... But I decided to use 'em!

This is the wing I built for track days with the 3.0 car. The end plates (7075 T6) slot into the trunk and are held with two bolts each. The wing elements do have ricer origins, but the were cheap and have a half-way respectable airfoil profile.

The whole thing can be put on or taken off in about ten minutes and fits in the trunk when disassembled. No need to drive to an event looking like a Honda magnet.


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Posted by: Mugs914 Oct 12 2007, 12:39 AM

More pics...


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Posted by: Mugs914 Oct 12 2007, 12:40 AM

'Nuther...


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Posted by: Mugs914 Oct 12 2007, 12:41 AM

Last one...


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Posted by: URY914 Oct 12 2007, 07:39 AM

Mike, that's cool. Have you tried it at speed yet? How it work?

Posted by: andys Oct 12 2007, 10:52 AM

The only concern I have with regard to cantalevered wings (Mounted that far back on the car), is that without careful testing they can unload the front tires (lift) at speed.

Anyone have any experience with this?

Andys

Posted by: URY914 Oct 12 2007, 11:00 AM

You need to balance it out with a front spoiler.

Posted by: andys Oct 12 2007, 11:47 AM

You are right, it is essential that it be balaced with an aero device in the front. I would look toward a splitter rather than only the spoiler. If the rear wing lifts the front of the car, it will defeat the spoiler effect.

Andys

Posted by: URY914 Oct 12 2007, 12:30 PM

My front end...




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Posted by: Mugs914 Oct 13 2007, 12:56 AM

Tried it just this last weekend as a matter of fact. My PCA region ran a DE/autocross at The Streets of Willow Springs. The wing worked really well.

My car doesn't have a bunch of front downforce (Yet, I'm working on a splitter), just an "IMSA" style airdam, so I used a suspension set up that was a bit tail happy and used the wing to plant the rear in the fast stuff.

It really worked great. The initial suspension set up was a bit too loose and I was having trouble getting the power down in the slower sections (Though the fast bits were fine) so I stiffened the front bar just a bit and it really came together. A couple of the fast sweepers that were a throttle dance last time I ran there were flat with the wing. You could really feel it stick.

I'm gonna keep it...

Posted by: JPB Oct 13 2007, 12:40 PM

Cool wings fellas. I like the adjustability of the black one also. Can't wait to hear how well yours works Ury.

Posted by: Mugs914 Oct 14 2007, 02:10 AM

Here are a couple of pics from the Streets of Willow event last Monday.

This shot was taken on the front straight at around 115mph. Interesting to compare the rear rim to fender lip distance in this shot with the static position in the earlier post...


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Posted by: Mugs914 Oct 14 2007, 02:16 AM

Trail braking to keep from ramming the tail-dragger...


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Posted by: Mugs914 Oct 14 2007, 02:21 AM

Hitting the apex, unencumbered by 911s...


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Posted by: Mugs914 Oct 14 2007, 02:22 AM

Last one (I promise...).


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Posted by: Joe Ricard Oct 14 2007, 07:28 AM

The fact that you were not pushing through the corners indicates to me you were not making a whole hell of alt of down force.

I would like to know what the wind looks like back there going over the cantilevered wing.

Posted by: grantsfo Oct 14 2007, 05:06 PM

Great looking car!

Posted by: Mugs914 Oct 14 2007, 11:55 PM

Thanks Grants!

I'm not sure why you would say something like that.

But by way of additional info:

The pic labeled "Last one" was taken exiting the pits, so no, I wasn't pushing there.

The pics taken at the "apex" are entering the first, early apex of a double apex 180 deg. left coming off of the longest straight, so there is little pushing to be done there other than to carry your speed up to the point where you really shut it down and start pushing.

The other pic is on the straight...

As I said in my previous post, I'm not using the wing to generate a whole ton of downforce. I don't yet have the front aero needed to balance it. Instead I'm using a suspension set-up that is quite loose and using the rear downforce to make it stable in the fast bits. It works well at a track like Streets of Willow that is made up of a few relatively fast sweepers connected by tight corners and straights. In the slow stuff where areo effects are minimal, the car throttle steers with ease and tracks well under power with very little push. In the fast sweepers the wing comes into play and plants the rear. As I said, a couple of the fast sweepers that used to be "as much power as you dare" were dead flat with the wing.

This was the first time out with the wing, but since I am one of the crew that is responsible for the event I only got about five laps practice before the timed laps. I had to make a sway bar adjustment, then ran my timed laps without being able to test the adjustment. In the DE sessions after the timed laps, I was able to push much harder as I got more comfortable with the set-up.

Still, in timed runs I was 12th fastest out of 70 cars, about 4 sec behind TTOD ('07 GT-3 on R compound tires), if I recall correctly.

I was about .040 sec out of the top ten.

I won my class! (PCA AX/TT class HI)

I was about 6 sec ahead of the car that finished second in my class.

I was driving my daily driver (I don't drive around town with the wing though, thank you! ).

I was on 1 1/2 year old G-force TA tires (Daily drivers, 340 tread wear rating, or something like that).

Overall I was pretty happy with the set-up!

I guess the point is that there are several different ways to use the air to find an advantage. The important thing is to remember that what works on one car might not work on another and to work the whole thing as a system...

Now, any more progress to report Paul??

Posted by: URY914 Oct 15 2007, 06:57 AM

My progress, gee I had forgotten this thread was about my wing. What a hijack.

P

Posted by: Joe Ricard Oct 15 2007, 07:59 AM

You are making a wing?
Looks like a 60's surfboard. Wood core and all.

Posted by: Mugs914 Oct 15 2007, 10:05 AM

Ummm...

Sorry 'bout that...

Posted by: URY914 Oct 15 2007, 10:08 AM

You building an engine?

Posted by: Joe Ricard Oct 15 2007, 10:11 AM

NO I am buildng a RACE engine.

Posted by: URY914 Oct 15 2007, 10:44 AM

Sure you are.

Posted by: Joe Ricard Oct 15 2007, 11:38 AM

Yup.
just got the pistons back 10 minutes ago.

all systems go for New Red Neck Racer power.

Gots a wing gonna make a bigger splitter. All I need then is you to come out here so I can school you on how to drive.

Posted by: URY914 Oct 15 2007, 11:43 AM

Do you have a race pillow that you sit on so you can see over the dashboard?

Posted by: andys Oct 15 2007, 12:03 PM

Mugs914,

Which direction did you run at The Streets? CW or CCW?

Andys

Posted by: Mugs914 Oct 15 2007, 09:11 PM

CCW, including the bowl, though I think I like CW better...

Posted by: andys Oct 16 2007, 11:12 AM

That's what I suspected, but wasn't sure by looking at the photos. It's a way different track in each direction for sure. Yeah, I too prefer the CW direction.

Andys

Posted by: Mugs914 Oct 27 2007, 03:18 AM

Any progress to report Paul??

Posted by: URY914 Oct 27 2007, 08:42 PM

Excellent question, Mike. These were taken today.






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Posted by: URY914 Oct 27 2007, 08:44 PM

I slotted the rear trunk lid tonight so the supports will fit in the slots.




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Posted by: URY914 Oct 27 2007, 08:47 PM

I also fitted the big engine scoop on it tonight. More pics tomorrow.




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Posted by: byndbad914 Oct 27 2007, 09:18 PM

holy downforce batman... good lord! Only comment - spills could be a little bigger.

As light as your car is it will cause wheelies above 75mph hahaha. Nice work - I always appreciate when someone can build their own stuff!

Posted by: URY914 Oct 27 2007, 09:25 PM

Spills=End plates?

Posted by: Joe Ricard Oct 29 2007, 12:33 PM

Them thar end plates is real nice.
How high up is that thing above where the roof line should be?
The last pic shows it being high as hell.

Gonna make a bigger splitter up front?

Posted by: mudfoot76 Oct 29 2007, 02:03 PM

You'd better keep that car locked up or else I forsee some ricer stealing it to mount on the trunk of his mom's 1992 Accord sedan

Posted by: URY914 Oct 29 2007, 08:19 PM

Joe, you worry about the rules too much.

Posted by: Mugs914 Oct 30 2007, 09:41 AM

Looking great Paul. Can't wait to see it with the scoop...

Posted by: URY914 Oct 30 2007, 08:33 PM

scoop....




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Posted by: URY914 Oct 30 2007, 08:35 PM

scoop




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Posted by: URY914 Oct 30 2007, 08:36 PM

scoop




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Posted by: URY914 Oct 30 2007, 08:38 PM

done


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Posted by: URY914 Oct 30 2007, 08:40 PM

done for now


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Posted by: ChrisNPDrider Oct 31 2007, 01:33 PM

2 more weeks until the race? Any "shake-down" runs around the block yet?

Posted by: URY914 Oct 31 2007, 01:47 PM

This weekend is Rennsport at Daytona so I won't have any runs on it before the event. My fingers are crossed.

Posted by: Joe Ricard Oct 31 2007, 01:55 PM

Can't or at least shouldn't run that car around the block.
The tires he has on it will pick up all the rocks pebbles and sand in the entire county.
Not much grip then, not to mention spending 2 hours picking out huge rock form out of the rubber.

Hmm wonder how I know this??????????
I too was a dumb ass once.

Posted by: flesburg Oct 31 2007, 08:51 PM

Do you think the end plates will make the car too sensitive to crosswinds?

I know nothing about aerodynamics (maybe cant even spell it) but I do understand
down force and what it does for stability at speed, but crosswind seems to me is
an enemy.

Posted by: URY914 Nov 1 2007, 08:34 AM

I've thought of that too. If I think crosswinds are really causing me problems I'll cut the end plates down.

My other thought was, on an a/x course you don't spend much time going in any one direction for very long. So any crosswind effects will be short lived.

Posted by: Joe Ricard Nov 1 2007, 09:16 AM

I noticed my car felt like it had a rudder after the addition of of solid stands and 100 sq. in. each end plates. Go fast enough and it will inhibit some of that loose feeling.

Posted by: URY914 Nov 1 2007, 01:28 PM

I hope the course doesn't have a long stright to start with. I may not be able to turn the s-wheel at the first cone.

Posted by: john rogers Nov 1 2007, 01:57 PM

You could add some of the off-road cutting brakes and then you could turn even if the front wheels are off the ground. They might be at the first cone!!??

Posted by: Joe Ricard Nov 1 2007, 02:46 PM

Or you could learn how to drive that thing.

Want me to come out and show you? Need a couple of telephone books to see over the dash. Last time I sat in your car I felt like a little kid and was staring straight at the steering wheel hub.

Posted by: stownsen914 Nov 2 2007, 10:40 AM

I doubt crosswind sensitivity will be a big issue. In the pro racing ranks, when teams are allowed to run large end plates, they do. THese days most of the sanctioning bodies limit end plate size (e.g. ALMS).

Check out this URL on mulsannescorner.com explaining why it's good to have large end plates. In addition to helping to self-correct if you get sideways (the end plates act like rudders), they actually increase the wing's effectiveness even in a straight line!
http://www.mulsannescorner.com/wingendplates.html

Posted by: URY914 Nov 13 2007, 07:50 PM

That is one of my reasons for the big ass end plates.

Posted by: URY914 Nov 13 2007, 07:52 PM

I ran with the wing for the first time Sunday....




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Posted by: URY914 Nov 13 2007, 07:54 PM

Here is "proof" that it works




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Posted by: Mugs914 Nov 13 2007, 08:46 PM

Awesome Paul!

How about a "driver's report"?

Posted by: Joe Ricard Nov 14 2007, 08:07 AM

And why would you say it works? the ass end is still just as high in the air as before.

Supposed to make down force not lift.
I would (as we talked via Email) do some suspension work.

Hmm looking at the POOF pic. were you under braking or acceleration?

Posted by: URY914 Nov 14 2007, 11:20 AM

I'm braking of course.

Posted by: Aaron Cox Nov 14 2007, 10:07 PM

joe is sippin on haterade.

watch out yall, ricky bobby is here

So how soon till joe gets signed by the Nascar bubbas for his driving ability?

Posted by: Joe Ricard Nov 15 2007, 07:25 AM

Hey man this is the RACING section.

What you doing here?

Posted by: atomix8 Nov 15 2007, 07:40 AM

Paul,

I'm squinting pretty hard but I still can't tell, which track is that? I'm in Maryland right now, but I grew up in Central Florida (Orlando) and my parents live about 30 minutes from Sebring right now. I'm trying to figure out what track that could be in the ~Tampa area.

Awesome car by the way. Definitely a car better suited to Florida than this mid-Atlantic weather (mine's officially parked for the year!).

Congrats on a great project! What was the weight gain for the wing, or maybe I missed that part of the post?

Posted by: URY914 Nov 15 2007, 07:48 AM

That track is the go-cart track at Moroso in West Palm Beach. Not exectly an a good a/x layout, but you take what they give you.

I haven't weighed it with the wing yet.

Posted by: john rogers Nov 16 2007, 12:29 PM

You need to measure the amount of downforce at various speeds.

Posted by: URY914 Nov 16 2007, 12:57 PM

Joe is going to come down and drive beside me and measure from the top of the wing to the ground at various speeds. I'll post the results.

Posted by: McMark Nov 17 2007, 08:39 PM

Now to make the end plates pivot with the steering wheel.

Posted by: maf914 Nov 19 2007, 03:06 PM

Which way should they pivot? In the same direction as the steering wheel (understeer) or in the opposite (oversteer)? Either way sounds wicked!

I say tape yarn tufts all over the body and wing and take a series of photos at 50, 100, 150 and 200 mph. We really need to see what what the hell is going on with all of these cool aero mods.