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Posted by: Joe Ricard Sep 25 2007, 03:39 PM

http://www.scca.com/documents/resultfiles/5632_heat2TWWEfinal.pdf




Looks like Greg pulled it toether and got himself a 2nd place trophy. JJ just missed by a little bit.

Posted by: 914forme Sep 25 2007, 08:31 PM

How do you get a class win run alone.



Actualy Jeny is a hell of a driver, I run against her and her father 5-8 times a year, and her A-mod car I have only beaten once. It does not do well on super tight courses, where my 914 tends to shine. I need more HP really torque.

Go guys go, good showing for hte 914 crowd.

Can't wait to see how the other locals do this year.

Posted by: grantsfo Sep 28 2007, 06:14 PM

Noticed how many of the fast drivers from the west. Were missing from nationals. Its too bad they don't hold this event out west occasionally

Posted by: Joe Ricard Sep 28 2007, 07:57 PM

WTF are you talking about. Kansas is pretty much in the middle so EVERYBODY can attend.

If people didn't show it's thier own choice.

Grant I seriously doubt that you have any idea of what going fast really is.

SCCA Nationals is for the fastest of the fast to gather and find out who has what it takes to be the fastest SOLO II driver in the land.

Certainly didn't see your name on the list.

Posted by: J P Stein Sep 29 2007, 10:30 AM

It looks like Fordahl screwed the pooch on the first day.
You don't spot an 11 or now 12 time national champ 2 sec or so with any expectation of beating him.....tho Fordahl had the best class time on the 2nd day.
I've watched Fordahl drive. It's pretty fuckin' incredible

Posted by: grantsfo Sep 29 2007, 01:25 PM

This has nothing to do about me. There just arent many people who are willing to drive all the way to Kanas.

Posted by: J P Stein Sep 29 2007, 07:44 PM

Ayup, only about 1162 AX weenies.....almost as good as GGR, eh?
The view from the location of your head is pretty narrow, eh?

Posted by: Joe Ricard Sep 29 2007, 08:35 PM

Can't see through his affliction of Cranial rectumitis

1162 entrants would also equal a sell out. that would be the limit number of entrants there was near 50 people on the waiting / standby list. maybe they were the peeps from GGR.

Posted by: grantsfo Sep 30 2007, 02:40 AM

Dear JP and Joe,

I'm just saying youre not observing all of the top driving talent at Solo Nats who are unwilling to drive to Topeka.

Something else that has always seemed strange to me is that criteria for Solo II Nats is sign up early and just show up. What credible sport doesnt have limited attendence to those who are truly qualified at a regional level. This practice dilutes the competiton in my book, but what do I know?

Funnier yet to me are the two guys that hype this event as the holy grail motorsports dont even show up? WTF? I truly expected to see our two great hopes "racing" at this prestigious event.

...and JP whats up with that guy with that stockish CSP class MX5 that always kicks your car's butt in local events? He isnt even in the running for the podium at Nats. He was more than 2 seconds off the pace of the fast drivers in CSP.

You two really need to get out to Nor Cal sometime as some of us lesser drivers could really use your help in providing some top notch AX driving instruction to us slow pokes. I'm sure with some more practice over the years and with your tutelage I might approach the speed that you two do in these skillful cone dodging events. It is a dream of mine to one day drive cross country to a dusty parking lot in Topeka to do battle with thousands of the "best" drivers from around the country.

Posted by: JPB Sep 30 2007, 04:20 AM

I f I went, I'd be the fastest because I'ma craaaaazyboy!

Posted by: J P Stein Sep 30 2007, 04:22 AM

Marvelous "spin" to cover your ignorance.... typical of your replies when your crap is shown to be off the wall BS.

CA was and has been well represented at the nationals.....but since you don't know them, they must be shit, eh? The Bauer/ Daniels pair finshed 7 & 8.......beaten by old Miatas,(3 of which were from CA) but you have no idea why, do you....I do. I also know why your car pushes since you bought them trick slicks/wheels, do you?

Posted by: Joe Ricard Sep 30 2007, 06:32 AM

Because he needs a big four instead of a six?

Posted by: grantsfo Sep 30 2007, 12:09 PM

JP

Thats interesting, several of the top SFR SCCA guys I have watched drive were not there? A couple of our slower drivers were there. SFR was not well represented. And some very fast Southern California drivers were absent as well. I'm just saying not all top drivers compete in Solo do to the sports lack of prestige. Again who would want to drive cross country to Kansas for a AX other than a true nutter?

And clearly our two top 914world AX drivers were not motivated enough to plan for the event and instead left motor rebuilds for the time that they could be going for the cone dodging glory!

I am still trying to figure out how that poorly sorted CSP MX5 beats a master of car setup like you in your E Mod car. Perhaps you just havent figured out your ground effects yet? Or perhaps you need to go to those faster DOT tires? Oh it must be the engine.

Unfortunately my car will never turn well in AX as I dont have the energy to set the car up for the few AX events I show up to in the 914. You keep forgetting my 914 is a track car that has perfectly nueteral handling. I spend over 95% of my driving time on the track where the car performs quite well with no understeer.

Again hope you can get down here sometime to help me out with this incredibly complicated sport of autocrossing.

Posted by: nebreitling Sep 30 2007, 01:23 PM

grant, you mean there's no qualifying to go to nationals? i don't know much about autocross competition. i would have just assumed that participants would have to earn points (or something) to be qualified to participate.

To drive 30 hours for a few minutes of seat time where anyone can show up seems a little... crazy. but i know that enough people take it seriously enough to ensure deep talent pools.

I have a lot of respect for the sport, but personally, none of the people I've met who have an "idea of what going fast really is" are still active AXers.

Posted by: grantsfo Sep 30 2007, 06:48 PM

Nope just sign up, tow your car nearly 2000 miles to Topeka and youre competing at a "national" level. It is sort of cool in that you could show up to a poorly attended class and likely have a spitting chance at a podium placing.

And you know me I have little respect for the sport and put it up there with amatuer bowling. I just cant take cone dodging too seriously. I certainly try to take it serious when I'm out driving and its great fun. I also have utmost respect for everyone that is giving it their best (even JP ), but I have a hard time with people who take the "sport" too seriously. Did I mention that I placed 7th in amatuer bowling championship once as a teenager? I thnk bowling and AX share a lot of similarities when taking a zen perspective.

Posted by: J P Stein Sep 30 2007, 10:37 PM

Yeah, yeah....
Lemmeno next time you're out of the country so's I can go to NoCal for an AX.
I blew it this weekend.

Posted by: Richard Casto Oct 1 2007, 10:25 AM

I usually try to stay out of the flame war threads, but this is drving me nuts!

Someone who is looking for competition. Specially at an event that draws people from all across the country.


If the sport was popular enough that an "open to all who shows up" event like Nationals produced a flood of competitors, then they would probably do something to limit entry such as via a points system. But it is not a problem yet. So autocrossing (in general) is able to support two distinct groups. Those who take it VERY seriously and those who just want to show up and have some fun. At Nationals, you tend to have less of the later, but you may still have some people who like to show up and measure themselves against better drivers.


That is the key point. You are going to have people show up who have little chance of winning at their local level let alone at the national level. But you are also going to get a number of drivers who are the best or nearly so in the sport. So the point is you measure yourself against the top of the list and not the bottom.

Sure there are going to be some people who are very good (maybe even the best in their class) who don't show up for some reason (including length of drive). But for those who don't show up, they have taken themselves out of the equation and including them in the mix (driver X would have beat driver Y if he had attended) is pure bench racing. While actually showing up and driving is the real deal.


If you are a good driver, can you potentially cherry pick (i.e. purposely driving in a class with low attendence)? Sure you can. If you are good enough to cherry pick and easily win, then you have just decided you like to stroke your own ego and would rather be a big fish in a small pond vs. measuring yourself elsewhere.


There are plenty of sports "I don't get" (Curling anyone?). You mention bowling. I bowl maybe once every few years and have fun doing it. I also have no idea why some people love it as much as they do. However they obviously get something more out of it than I do and I respect their enthusiasm and skill. I don't think that just because I don't enjoy the top level of the sport that there is less value in their accomplishments.

Posted by: grantsfo Oct 1 2007, 12:01 PM

But even Curling takes their national championships seriously and they have regional events to qualify. They also have world championships and Olympic contests. http://www.usacurl.org/usacurl/

Curling also gets better sponsorship and TV airtime than SCCA Solo II.

I'm trying to think of serious sports that dont have qualifying for their national Championship events and come up empty. I'm sure there must be some?

I think I have more of an issue with poor SCCA promotion and management of Solo II series than anything. Why not treat the sport as something legitmate? Put some real standards in place and attract a much larger base of excellent driving talent? Then hold a real national championship with regional qualifying events.

I can garuntee if there was more commercial recognition of Solo II as a serious and popular motorsport that much better drivers would start to emerge and change the competitive dynamic of the sport. In looking at what top national Solo II amatuer drivers garner I know I made more in sponsorship as an average amatuer competive cyclist. I was actually provided with all equipment, travel, meals, lodging and even made money at the races and I was only a regional level rider.

Posted by: Richard Casto Oct 1 2007, 12:43 PM

I don't follow the politics of it, but it seems that complaints about the lack of promotion and management on the SCCA side are a common. So you are probably preaching to the choir on that one.

And I would agree that if the sport was bigger than it is today, the overall quality of participants would increase. Both in both bringing up the level of existing participants as well as bringing new participants to the sport.

Posted by: nebreitling Oct 1 2007, 10:53 PM

not to add fuel to the fire, but i suppose the argument is whether or not a sport could have a top level if anyone can compete. to me, the top level of solo II is club racing run-offs.

as for solo II becoming commercially recognized... that doesn't make any sense to me at all. i think it works better the way it is now.

Posted by: grantsfo Oct 1 2007, 11:21 PM

I just know I'm not driving 1900 miles in my stinky old truck with 914 in tow to drive in Topeka regardless of the events status. Now put it in Monterey or Sonoma where I can go wine and cheese tasting after the event and I might show up. ...Why doesn't this site have a whine and cheese avatar? It could be named after me.

Posted by: Dave_Darling Oct 2 2007, 02:06 AM

Now that I simply do not get. Solo II, autoX, has almost nothing to do with the run-offs, which are wheel-to-wheel racing. I know those who insist that big-track DEs and "track days" have nothing at all to do with W2W, but I don't really buy that.

Still, the skill set is somewhat different between autoX and W2W, so I fail to understand why the one would be the top level of the other.

--DD

Posted by: nebreitling Oct 2 2007, 08:55 PM

you're right, of course, with the different skills and such -- my only point is that AX, despite a handful of truly dedicated competitors, is truly a "stepping-stone" motorsport. same reason it will never have significant commercial recognition.

Posted by: grantsfo Oct 2 2007, 10:46 PM

Have many of the top Solo drivers used this venue as a stepping stone? To me it seems same faces show up year after year in some classes.

Posted by: jhadler Oct 3 2007, 11:39 AM

Do these names sound familiar? All started dodging cones, and are now currently successful professional road racers:

Randy Pobst
Jeff Altenburg
Jason Siani
Neal Sapp

These are just a few that come to mind, I'm sure there are more...

-Josh2

Posted by: jhadler Oct 3 2007, 11:42 AM

The reason is doesn't get big commercial recognition is simply that no one has figured out how to a) make a format that can be exciting to watch as a spectator, and convince sponsors to fund it to the level needed for regular TV broadcasts.

It's grassroots, and for most drivers, that's enough. The few who want to continue up the food chain tend to do so with considerable success.

-Josh2

Posted by: Richard Casto Oct 3 2007, 12:17 PM

I don't think that top competitors view it that way. There are plenty of people who started out with AX and then moved onto other stuff, but that is most likely because AX is so easy to start doing. But I would bet that most of the top drivers continue to AX year after year and have no intent on moving onto wheel to wheel racing. It "can" be a stepping stone as car control skills learned on AX are not wasted when you move to wheel to wheel.

I do think that the entry level aspect (which I think is sort of what you are saying as far as stepping stone) does hurt it as far as being a "bigger" sport. But there are other factors as well. I think one of the biggest is that it just is not a good spectator sport. "Pro solo" makes it a bit more consumable as a spectator and to take it to the next level it would have to be something like cross over courses in stadiums as used by the European Race of Champions. But in doing all of this, it quits being AX and becomes something else. So traditional AX ends up staying just like it is today.

Posted by: J P Stein Oct 3 2007, 12:57 PM

As Josh says, AX is grassroots motorsports and will likely remain so.
Randy Probst is the only "name" driver that I know of that credits AX as both a starting point and a teacher of car control.

As for Grant, the only time he might listen to you is when you tell him "it's time for dinner".
He's most interested in running down other's efforts....I've met "Grants" many times.
The motivation is beyond me and he's welcome to it.

Posted by: grantsfo Oct 3 2007, 03:01 PM

And of course it depends what is being served for dinner. I'm also more inclined to listen if you bring a nice bottle of Pinot Nior.

However the last statement seems to be more of a projective statement of your personality than mine JP. I have a lot of respect for all people who are out there giving it their best including you. You really do well for a "mature" gentleman.

Posted by: jhadler Oct 3 2007, 03:26 PM

Hmm, I'm more partial to a good Zin...

-Josh2

Posted by: J P Stein Oct 3 2007, 03:41 PM

You'll notice I refrained from any amateur psychology, tho you seem to be a good case study.

Posted by: Joe Ricard Oct 3 2007, 04:19 PM

Well if you want me to listen it better come in a bottle and be made with Hops.

If you want to continue the banter.

GO SOMEWHERE ELSE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Please start racing in the Paddock. Bench racing is fine too.

Posted by: J P Stein Oct 3 2007, 06:08 PM

...and after all I've done for you, this is what I get.

OK, bench racin'. Since I settled in XP you better go elsewhere cause I can take you like Grant (the one in Grant's tomb) took Richmond.

For all your drivel, I still have more posts than you.

Posted by: grantsfo Oct 3 2007, 10:01 PM

You guys should come out for a SFR SCCA event sometime. It would be fun for 3 XP 914's to show up out of the blue. I'm sure both of you guys would kick my butt, as I'm not much of a cone dodger and my 914 really isnt really much of an AX car, but I'd give it my best. Sometimes I get really lucky and put together a fast run or two.

Posted by: Joe Ricard Oct 4 2007, 05:59 AM

Well my car does pretty well in both venues. Road courses and Autocross.

The comment I got from the S2000 owner last time out at NPR was hey I think your brakes lights have a bad connection or something. I only seen a flicker as you went into turn 1.
Nope they work fine, I just tap the brake to settle the car I was pretty much on the gas through the APEX. He just shook his head as he walked away. "nuts" just plain nuts......

JP I guess I got less drivel that you you.

Posted by: Phoenix 914-6GT Aug 21 2008, 10:51 PM

So after the AX challenge, or shoot out, or whatever it was called, has this been settled?

Posted by: J P Stein Aug 22 2008, 07:06 AM

Well, we went to their house. Good people, drivers, & venue. Beating folks at their home venue is a tough road to hoe.....many don't appreciate that fact.
It has taken Grant a couple weeks to regain his internet form and now it's biddness as usual.

To the crux of this thread, we went to the Tour event at Packwood a couple weeks back and, tho Brit won our class, we got out hats handed to us by many, many door slammers.

Posted by: URY914 Aug 22 2008, 07:33 AM

It's tough to be guys with the latest CAD/CAM cars with a 40 year old car that was designed with a slide rule..

Posted by: SirAndy Aug 22 2008, 02:08 PM

I almost had you there, old man. Almost ... It'll happen. Some day ... Mark my words, it'll happen ...
Andy

Posted by: J P Stein Aug 22 2008, 02:54 PM

Well, maybe....if I live long enuff.