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Posted by: JPB Sep 29 2007, 07:56 AM

Talking to some track dudes some have said they gave up driving T4s due to loosing to much oil on the track and no matter how big the Acusump was, they still burned out bearings. What is your solution to this problem? THNX

Posted by: Dave_Darling Sep 29 2007, 09:01 AM

My solution is two-fold:

1--tuna can
2--drive slowly



--DD

Posted by: JPB Sep 29 2007, 09:13 AM

Tuna can doable, driving slow, easier said than done. Hows about going fats to the point of breaking loose and holding the clutch open around a turn

Posted by: Dave_Darling Sep 29 2007, 05:46 PM

I dunno about that, but I just have lousy times... I do use hard-compound tires, which does tend to cut down on the lateral G's I can impose on the oil.

You can do other things to help keep the oil going to the Right Places: A full-on deep sump is one, modifying the windage tray (cut it in long U shapes and fold those up and/or down so they form "fences" running fore and aft) is another. I have also seen modified tuna cans and valve covers where a line was run from the bottom of the valve cover into the side of the tuna can. Accusump is another good option, and of course with enough effort you can put together a dry-sump system like the 911 engines have.

Myself, I'm slow enough that just the tuna can and running 1/2 quart over full keeps the oil light off.

--DD

Posted by: grantsfo Sep 29 2007, 06:11 PM

Think it depends on what your doing with the car. If your driving on the street and at AX I think you can get away with tuna can and some good oil.

If youre going to the track for long fast sessions on sticky tires I dont think you can throw enough money at a T4 to make sure everything is getting oiled.

Posted by: Joe Ricard Sep 29 2007, 08:38 PM

Dry sump

Posted by: JPB Sep 30 2007, 04:10 AM

Good advise bros/manziers. The PO had a 1 1/2 quart sump under the engine but took it off for street use since the Beater is low to start with. Me likes dry sump though, thats easy enough to rig up

Posted by: TGM Oct 21 2007, 09:32 PM

A full deep sump was the only solution to completely solve my oil problems. I have 2 qt. accusump and it would keep pressure in turns but then on occasion, oil pressure would drop almost to zero for 5-10 seconds as the pump lost priming and the accumulator refilled.

However, my first day out with deep sump, it was destroyed by crankshaft pulley that came off a car in front of us. I will install new one but need to weld some type of shield to the engine cross bar. If I had to do all over, I would go dry sump.

Posted by: Krieger914 Oct 21 2007, 10:39 PM

I have a simple solution that has worked well in my car for autocrossing with street and khumo victoracers... overfill the sump by about half a quart. When my motor is cold the oil level is 5-6 mm over the top line of the dipstick. I have never had a problem.

Posted by: Joe Ricard Oct 22 2007, 04:12 PM

Every 914 I have driven other than mine has been a wallowing pig. Get the car sprung to keep it flat. R3S05 Hoosiers or slicks and 300 pound rear springs 21mm t-bars and a 22mm sway bar.

Posted by: sww914 Nov 8 2007, 12:40 AM

I've gotten by with a deep sump and a 2 qt accusump. Before the accusump but after sticky tires and stiff springs I'd come out of long corners with no oil pressure for 5-10 seconds. It turned my rod bearings into something that looked like a pile of mashed up pennies.
I think that a dry sump is superior to my setup, but more expensive.

Posted by: ChrisNPDrider Nov 9 2007, 06:14 PM

Ok - I'm hoping for input here for my particular application.
No doubt oiling of the engine bearings is a problem on the track, and this winter I want to build up to get there, but here's the million dollar question:

How much worse are 2.0 bearings and internals than those from a 1.7 or 1.8?

What about Chevy size bearings on a 2.0 crank?

Are oiling worries on a 1.7 less than a 2.0 (assuming I go just as fast?)?

Randal B's GGR AX 222 car has a oil pickup welded into the side of a standard looking Welt tuna can that goes to a dry sump. Pretty trick. Club has pics. Too expensive.

Posted by: HAM Inc Nov 10 2007, 11:09 AM

Assuming you already have an adequate oil cooler plumbed up adding a dry sump may not cost as much as you think. A dry sump oil pump is available that fits in the stock location (alternate engine mounting bracket must be made. I have done this on the house F-Prod car for solid mounts) Used oil tanks can be had on e-bay for cheap. If the car is a dd that is occasionally ax, then an accusump is the way to go. If a dedicated track and/or ax car, I would go dry sump. It can be done for less than $500.00

Posted by: hedfurst Nov 10 2007, 08:11 PM

Len,
I have a deep sump that has fixed my problems for autox where the cornering forces are intense but rather short. I am now considering track events and am interested in a dry sump system. Is this system you are refering to compatable with the stock cooling?
Joe, wallowing pigs they may be but I believe that this is an issue of centrifugal forces and not really directly related to suspension issues. Whether it "wallows" or is "flat" in the corners the oil is still going to move away from the pickup and the sump's not going to refill well. I'm sure I'll be corrected if I'm wrong. "Tighter" suspension would however allow you to generate more gs and therefore more centrifugal force.

Posted by: Joe Ricard Nov 10 2007, 08:38 PM

Who knows how to wire up a sensor/sendor to activate a huge idiot light that I can mount on the binnicale or next to my shift light.
At what pressure points and RPM would the parameters be.

I have watched my oil pressure gage while my co-driver tried to make me puke on the track. even through a huge 70 MPH sweeper screeming through in 3rd gear pulling 1.4G Full race slicks I did not see the gage drop. Temps of the oil were near 260. Just a tuna can.

Posted by: hedfurst Nov 10 2007, 11:54 PM

Hmm.
"Huge," =not really quantifiable, how many seconds?
At how many rpms? 70 mph in 5th?
1.4 is really good Joe, says alot for your suspension set up but at some point you WILL suck the sump empty and lose pressure--dude, it's a matter of physics and time- specifically, the duration of the sweeper.
And then, a motor turning 7000 is going to potentially empty the sump 40% faster than same set up at 5000.
You can stretch 'em but you can't suspend the laws of physics--at least not in this universe.

Posted by: alpha434 Nov 11 2007, 01:39 AM

Well...

There is a port in 356 cases that all the oil has to flow through. It's a small threaded part with a hole put through the center. The first thing most racers do is take that piece out- because it restricts oil flow.

Now it's time for a history lesson. Ford V-8s. Top oilers vrs side oilers. One prioritized the crank, the other the cam. I don't remember which was which. The side oiler oiled the crank first?

Anyway. The cam needs the oil MUCH more than the crank does. We take that little part and braze it shut, drill a much smaller hole in it, and put it back in. The cam sits in a pool of oil as long as you don't have the pump sucking the bath away. The crank will live a much longer life without oil. It has 6 times the contact area in the bearings and only spins 1/4 as fast.

What does this amount to? Well. 356s have 2 basic types of sump plates. The tuna can, and the monster big plates that hold an extra 5 qts or something ridiculous. Having either of them on there is a big risk (if you hit a bump, it'll tear the case open.) Plus they're heavy. And oil is heavy. We don't run any sump plate. AND we rev our engines to 8500.

Hope I helped...!

Posted by: Twystd1 Nov 11 2007, 03:36 AM

Joe,

I have some more useless data for you.

Back in my round "D" round days. We always had a BIG RED oil pressure light mounted on the top of the dash. As we had no time to look at a tach or any other gauges.
As we were usually door to door and our fellow drivers are pushing on our cars through the turns. Only when we were free of traffic for a second or two. Could we glance at the gauges.

The problem we encountered with the RED light was this.

A pressure switch Is just that. At a given pressure the switch stays open. Any pressure below that the switch closes and completes the circuit and the red light comes on.

In our case. That was typically at the end of a turn or when the engine was so hot the oil was like water. And the viscosity dropped like a hammer and we loose oil pressure.

The problem is that when the RED light (20 psi) went red. The engine had already hurt itself. Same with oil pressure gauges. They work even slower.

The only good thing about a pressure gauge or a low pressure red light was the driver had a sense of what was going on. Just not in real time.

Thats the caveat. NOT IN REAL TIME.

In essence. Damage may well have already occurred before the gauge/light has shown there is an issue. And as that issue repeats itself.
Something eventually breaks.

In the case of our V8s. Major oil pressure drops can happen and the pressure switch and the gauge will NEVER SEE IT. It happens too fast for the analog approach to get the info. And then the pressure will dam near instantly rise and get back to normal. This is often because 2 different issues.
1) Loss of oil to the pump.
2) Engine harmonics reacting on the oil pump which in turn makes the oil go into stasis. Thats right........ The gears are turning. Yet the pump ain't pumping.
It was only because of the generosity of an engineer that had REAL TIME pressure sensors and the ability to data log this did we find out this was true.

And since our class didn't allow dry sump oiling. Over the years. We figured out how to stop the oil pressure problesms. This is 18 year old data. Maybe some of this might help.

Below is a list of the things we did to mitigate oil pressure loss.

1) Crank scraper to keep oil in the pan. (Not applicable to our engines)
2) Blue printed Billet oil pump.
3) Custom windage trays with hinged areas to keep oil in the lowest part of the sump.
4) Oil pickup tube that was custom length and larger that stock.
5) Rifle drilled and/or honed ALL oiling passages in block. Also made soft radius's in ALL oil passages and lifter galleys wherever possible.
6) Kept as much oil out of the valve cover area that is humanly possible. We used spray bars for this. Also had restrictors in the push rods.
7) NEVER have more than 10 LBS per 1000 rpm. The rest is just a waste with our builds. Additional pressure just heats up the oil and wastes HP.
8) Bigger oil pans do NOTHING unless the pan configuration allows the oil to QUICKLY get back to the pickup point and pool at this low point.
9) Crank case breathing plays a part in oil control. High internal crank case pressure will aerate the liquid oil. As oil pumps don't work that well when trying to push a vapor and liquid at the same time. The bearings don't much like it either.
10) ONLY USE A RACE ENGINE, PURPOSE BUILT, OIL FILTER ON A RACE CAR....!!!!
Use full flow filtration with an oil filter that has NO internal bypass.
(Yes they make them)
The remote filter housing DOES have a bypass if the filter clogs or implodes.

If dry sump is an option for your class.
And it is a purpose built track car.
I think a fella would have to be nuts not to use it.

I hope there is something you might use in the above data.

Cheers,
Clayton
8)

Posted by: zig-n-zag Nov 11 2007, 05:28 AM

JPB, The December 07 issue of Hot VWs has an article about Keeping Bearings Alive in a Type 1 drag motor. Interesting. With the use of a dry sump pump and the smaller diameter crank pulley, I wonder if a larger (?) alternator pulley could be made up to bring the fan speed back to normal for the Type 4?

Posted by: HAM Inc Nov 11 2007, 11:52 AM

The CB dry sump pump is compatible with pretty much any existing oil cooler, stock or otherwise, that has already been installed. It's not the ideal dry sump pump, but it works. It draws the oil out of the engine through the factory pickup and circulates it out to a holding tank. The pump then draws the oil back from the holding tank and passes it to the primary gears which then send the oil into the engine as a conventional pump would.

If you have full flowed your case already and have a remote OC plumbed up you wouldn't have to do anything different with it. As a matter of fact I now believe this is the best routing with this pump as cooling the oil after it has passed through the pump should lead to cooler oil. On our F-Prod car we routed the oil through a cooler and filter and then returned it to the tank. In this scenario the cooled oil passes back through the pump which is likely hotter than the oil. I wouyld add a filter between the tank and the out let line from the pump. It will keep the tank from collecting particles of wear.

A conventional upright holding tank would be a challenge to mount in a car with a funtioning passenger seat. Fortunately holding tanks are easy to build and could even be mounted in the rear trunk. A search of dry sump tanks on e-bay almost always reveals custom units for sale that might be easier to mount in a tighter space. Make sure you have some method of preventing the holding tank from draining into the engine when you shut it off. We use a manual ball valve. It works fine for us because our team is good about check list and it always gets opened before the engine is started. If you don't have some method of preventing drain back the engine will fill with oil and the pistons will pump it out your vents into your breather tank on the next start-up.

Posted by: hedfurst Nov 11 2007, 12:03 PM

QUOTE(HAM Inc @ Nov 11 2007, 09:52 AM)

Posted by: HAM Inc Nov 11 2007, 02:46 PM

No issues with the cooling fan. We use a Vanagon shroud, but the 914 shroud will clear as well. The factory mount brackets that bolt to the case do have clearance issues, however. Kevin Groot uses this pump on his E-Prod car and I believe he fabbed his alternate mount from a piece of angle iron that mounts with the bottom two bolts and sits direclty on the cross bar. I made a similar mount, but I welded a brace that uses the upper passenger side mount bracket bolt boss. I had to mill a slot in the bracket for a pipe nipple to pass through to the pump. I wanted the extra support, though Kevin has had no issues with his bracket. I made one of these for Tom Burdge and he reported no issues with it. If you needed one we could produce it for you.
You will not be able to retain the OE rubber mounts. But I believe the early 914's had rubber mounts outboard instead of inboard at the engine, so perhaps you could use that set-up if you don't want to hard mount the drivetrain. I'm not 100% sure about this as nearly all of my 914 experience (beyond the engine) has been with race prepped cars, mostly our own.

Posted by: Aaron Cox Nov 11 2007, 02:59 PM

please show a pic of your bracket Len,

Thanks!
Aaron

Posted by: hedfurst Nov 11 2007, 04:41 PM

Oh-boy, got to have it! I think that this is the anwer!
Len, let me know what I need to do.
Also would like to see pictures/diagram of your set up if it's not tooo much trouble.
I have been looking at this pump for some time. This issue is near and dear to me, it has already cost me one rebuild too many.
Thanks,
Fred

Posted by: HAM Inc Nov 12 2007, 03:44 PM

Aaron I would be glad to snap a photo, but the part is on the car and I can't get an angle that will show it. Next time I have it off I'll snap a shot of it.
Fred the link shows the plumbing diagram for the CB pump. I would suggest not routing into the cooler as it shows. Use what ever you currently have set-up. You will need to run a pipe tap into the pump body to enlarge the existing threads. For some reason they are under machined. Perhaps so the installer can ensure the nipple he uses fits properly. Use black pipe, not brass as the brass can crack.

http://www.cbperformance.com/images/DSOPSHU.jpg

Jake said he is developing a dry sump pump that will work similar to this one, but I'm sure it will be a better piece. We have not heard of any problems with the CB pump, but it can be improved upon.

Posted by: hedfurst Nov 12 2007, 04:42 PM

QUOTE(HAM Inc @ Nov 12 2007, 01:44 PM)

Posted by: groot Nov 12 2007, 06:54 PM

Here's a shot of my simple attachment. Note that the bottom of the case rests on the angle and there's a small bracket that reaches back to grab another case bolt (fuzzy picture).

Also, note that this isn't my current arrangement. I've done away with the rubber mounts, but not because they didn't work, for other reasons.


Len-I've had some oiling thoughts recently. I'll take some pics and run the idea by you. I'm travelling now for work, so it'll be a few days.


Attached image(s)

Posted by: HAM Inc Nov 13 2007, 09:12 AM

Fred the reason I recommend running the cooler the way you currently have it routed and not as part of the drysump plumbing is that the hot oil exits the pump, thereby heating the pump. If you return the oil to the pump from the tank then send it to the cooler (using your present routing) you will send cooler oil to the bearings than if you passed the cooled oil back through the heated pump.

We run a 12 qt tank, which we fill about 3/4.

Kevins bracket looks good to me. Kevin I thought you only had two bolts holding yours on. Glad it's really three. When looking at the first photo Kevin posted my bracket looks like his, but I welded a vertical piece of angle to the passenger side of the horizontal angle that bolts in at the original bracket upper mount boss. I first slotted the vertical piece so the pipe nipple passes through it.
Kevin send me an e-mail when you get back. I want to hear your oiling ideas and bounce some ideas off you.

Posted by: Brett W Nov 13 2007, 10:01 AM

You really need to be running a three or four stage pump to get the maximum benefit from a drysump system. The valve covers hold a bunch of oil and you have to be able to suck that oil out and not wait for gravity to takes its effect and it drain back to the sump.

If you look at real race engines you will see at least three and four pickups on the suction side. On the V8s oil is sucked from each valve cover, the oil pan, and the lifter valley. The CB system doesn't do that. It pulls from one place, the place where the T4 has all the problems to begin with.

Posted by: hedfurst Nov 13 2007, 12:28 PM

[quote name='Brett W' date='Nov 13 2007, 08:01 AM' post='966229']
You really need to be running a three or four stage pump to get the maximum benefit from a drysump system. The valve covers hold a bunch of oil and you have to be able to suck that oil out and not wait for gravity to takes its effect and it drain back to the sump.

If you look at real race engines you will see at least three and four pickups on the suction side.
Makes sense to me.
thanks len.
What exactly is a 3 or 4 stage pump? Multiple pick-ups or multiple pumps?
There's not really alot of space in a 914 for a much bigger/longer pump.
How many pickups in a 911? I've never seen the inside of one. What's their sump tank volume?

Posted by: race914 Nov 13 2007, 02:03 PM

[quote name='hedfurst' date='Nov 13 2007, 10:28 AM' post='966268']
[quote name='Brett W' date='Nov 13 2007, 08:01 AM' post='966229']
You really need to be running a three or four stage pump to get the maximum benefit from a drysump system. The valve covers hold a bunch of oil and you have to be able to suck that oil out and not wait for gravity to takes its effect and it drain back to the sump.

If you look at real race engines you will see at least three and four pickups on the suction side.
Makes sense to me.
thanks len.
What exactly is a 3 or 4 stage pump? Multiple pick-ups or multiple pumps?
There's not really alot of space in a 914 for a much bigger/longer pump.
How many pickups in a 911? I've never seen the inside of one. What's their sump tank volume?
[/quote]

Like Brett says, multi stage pumps let you scavenge oil from several areas: the crankcase, valve covers, etc. Here are some examples of what's out there

http://www.autocraftengines.com/product6.htm

Posted by: HAM Inc Nov 13 2007, 04:50 PM

There's no doubt that a multi stage dry sump system is superior to the CB pump. But the CB pump is affordable and not to difficult to hook up, and it is way better than a stock or even modified wet sump system.

BTW, real race cars don't have doors.

Posted by: race914 Nov 13 2007, 05:12 PM

QUOTE(HAM Inc @ Nov 13 2007, 02:50 PM)

Posted by: Brett W Nov 13 2007, 11:22 PM

Who cares how much one of the most important pieces of hardware on your engine costs? What is the cost of a good race motor? 10K$, 15k$, 30k$? I don't see any reason to waste an engine because a decent oiling system was "too expensive".

Real race cars have doors when SCCA says, "doors must capable of being opened or or removed".

Posted by: HAM Inc Nov 14 2007, 09:21 AM

One must keep in mind that budgets for racers are typically tight. The CB pump has worked well in every race condition we've exposed it to (when properly plumbed). We've examined the bearings on several hi-strung E-& F-Prod engines using the pump and they looked good enough to reinstall, even on one engine that had 300+* oil temps and multiple missed shifts.
A plus for the CB pump is no belt to fly off. A minus is no multi stage scavenge or crankcase vacuum.
For the racer or AX guy who is faced with oil starvation and a mulit stage drysump system will sap his tire bill for thenext two years, (or the babies diaper money, or the house payment) the CB pump is a great option. We will continue to use ours until Jake finishes development of his improved version. Using this style pump we have no belts whatsoever on our car and a big stove pipe shoved through the firewall right up to the fan shroud, which would be tough to do with belts.

I still maintain that real race cars don't have doors, I don't give a damn what SCCA says. I race a car with doors, (I don't use them) but I don't pretend it's a real race car. Real race cars began as a clean sheet of paper and were designed for racing from the get-go.
Want to see some real race cars? Click on the link.
http://www.ismasupers.com/

Posted by: jhadler Nov 14 2007, 11:50 AM

I think the CB setup looks like a great option that doesn't bust the budget. If I could go to a dry sump setup I would. Rules, darn pesky rules... Plus, there's the weight gain from going to a 12 qt. dry sump.

As for a "real race car"??? Come on kids...

What was the first race car? The one that the guy driving it was in... A real race car is one that is optimized for competition. If it started from a production chassis, or a clean sheet of paper, a race car is a race car. Door slammer, or open wheeler...

Some would say that a real race car is a rally prepped Scooby STi, some would say it's a sports racer, some would say it's anything that runs on slicks, some would say that if it doesn't have a V8 it's not a "real race car". Geez...

-Josh2

Posted by: race914 Nov 14 2007, 12:16 PM

I saw a clip on Speed once featuring "Alex Zanardi, the early years". I guess after one race he was back in the pits... opened his door, and an passing car took it off! His comment was "that's when I moved up to cars with no doors"..