I am sure I am going to get much banter, good, bad, and ugly for this post. But I just have to bring this up.

It is about all the talk I read about appropriate purchase prices of any teener.

It seems as though a great multitude of people are hell bent that a teener should never cost anybody more than maybe 2k.

Yet the parts for this car is easily on par with a full-on Porsche 911,928, etc. Particularly the engine--it is a vw unit developed ( in conjunction with Porsche??)--I could easily rebuild a flat six for the same if not much less than the cost of a higher power / reliable IV model.

We as a group are spending an absurd amount of time and greenbacks to get our cars to our personal level--yet the consensus I read is that after all this is done the cars are worth absolutely s*#t compared to the comparables. In my humble opinion this needs to stop, I see much foot shooting going on here. Do we as a group really want to invest all of the above and then by our own methods and verbalizations intentially keep the cars ...ahem..."CHEAP"?

Now do not get me wrong--I am all about "affordable" , but would rather see "affordable" vs. CHEAP and LESS than it could / should be.

I have an newer issue of "Excellance" and they are reporting the 914's are on the rise--We as a group have it within our power to change this trend for the worse if carefull thought is not applied to what is being said, sold, and bought.

I do not want to pump 10k into my car from rustoration, upgrades, only to only get maybe 2k for it if I was in the need.

I realize that right now I would be hard pressed to get what only I have in it, not to include my personal labor hours, which so far has exceeded 500 easily at a shop rate of $55.00 an hour---the OTHER Porsches do tho...............

I see too many nice cars for sale and people asking what they are worth and then saying that same nice car that is in good repair should only be " $900.00,,Tops" This is not going to cut it--we should be following the examples as set out in our newsstand advocate--"Excellance"

Just think about this for a moment before spouting off------I see much shooting of the feet in here--lets get smarter--and help the market adjust our beloved to the affordable level--not the out of reach level--We need parts that are of high quality, yet not priced exorbitantly--do you want to sell 10 at a 100.00, or 1000 at 50.00?? For every person that can afford a 10k type IV motor, there are possibly hundreds if not thousands who cannot. Just not dirt cheap to begin with an excellant example and then pour another thousands into it to make it our own and then get nothing for the fruits of our labor...........

It makes me sick to read about some poor schmo that bought a 2.5k rebuild cause that is what he could afford, and then have nothing but problems with it--then get berated about: " Told you so"..when the type 1 crowd can have 200+ hp for LESS THAN 3K----------I might just put a type 1 in mine and save 7k, or more--

Just as an example: For the time and money I am putting into my car--I could have easily purchased a late 70's-early 80's 911, rebuilt the motor, put good wheels and tires on it--and probably a minor interior / exterior upgrade--and easily sell it for more than I bought it / upgraded it for--------

I want to thank all of you that manufacture worthwhile products AND also price them accordingly---some others out there could possibly do some homework----We need to help the market as a whole with resale values----3000 members (almost) in a small community as the 914 is, is strong JEDI......yes, we are strong.........

If I have offended anybody I do not apologize--this is a forum for adult lively discussion--I would ask no less from anybody else. This post is NOT to any one person(s)--it is just a discussion.

But if things do not begin to change before I dump my talents and cash into this--I will go the 911 route


Point is: " I should not put 10k plus into my car and then expect to get for it what I am reading in here!, which is crap.........."

I'm not trying to start a flame war either... but I don't actually agree with the statement about building a flat 4 for the same price as a flat 6...

I'm not saying that its not possible.. but In my experience:
the last 2 flat4 race motors I had were 6k each...
and if I were to build a full flat 6 race motor I think it would run 8-10K... (and I know people with 20K into them)

brant

but I duth protest:

a rebuild -6 with 180hp will cost more than a rebuilt -4 with 180hp....

If you were buying a 3.0/6 with 180hp and NOT factoring in the rebuild cost then yes somewhat true....

Of course you can buy a NON rebuilt big -4 too and compare used prices to used prices...

but overall I agree with your thread.. I'm just saying that a -6 motor and the cost to convert are often under-estimated.... and New to New or used to used would be the aples to oranges arguement.

brant

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/ohmy.gif) oh no man--converting my teener to six is not what I meant----like, on the website, Motorcar investments, which is where my supervisor bought his 912--he can get 911's, (SC models) for 8-12k all day--and I am talking very good examples--put another 5k in, with all I talked about, and you can easily get what you put into it.

I used to work at a german shop--and we could rebuild slightly modified sixes--( as long as the cylinders are good) easily for 3k,,,tops.

I should have inserted this info into the thread, I could see how it would be misleading..........cheers (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/beerchug.gif)

Shortly ago I figured up what I will have in my teener--close to 18k, to include personal labor hours.

If I was not sooo in love with the teener, and went the 911 sc route, I would have an excellant example car to begin with, with upgrades--for about 14-17k when all is said and done, to include personal labor hours.

oh well...........guess I'll have another beer (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/beer.gif) (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/beerchug.gif)

The flaw in your argument is If your buying then fixing your car as an investment your wasting your time (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/headbang.gif)
Buy it for what you think is fair fix it to your level of satisfaction and drive it...for the sheer enjoyment of the experiance.
Then you wont be dissapointed. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/cool_shades.gif)

I know what you mean about return on investment with the 914's. That is basically why my street car is virtually stock. If I ever sell it, I wouldn't even be able to recoup the cost of restoration from 13 years ago. I have driven it though. I bet I could easily sell it for the same money I paid for it.

When I re-did that car I swore it was the last 914 I would do, but here I am re-doing a couple more.....

I have fun doing the work (maybe not all the time) and I miss doing it when I am done....

It is a hobby.

Nuff said...

I don't know many people that make money fixing up their old cars.

They are money pits but we do it because it is our passion.

Regarding the 911's. Man you can spend upwards of $50,000 on any one of them. There was an article in excellence a while ago about 2 911 SC's that were fixed up and each owner spent about that much.

And a nice teener is easily worth between $5,000 and $10,000

So carry on everbody and don't add up your receipts. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/smile.gif)

I agree with jwalters....I believe our cars are gaining in value and respect in the porsche community. I've probably got about 10k in mine (and that is not including my time value)...and I'd expect to get alot more then 2k for mine. For example, there was a post on here today asking about a value for a 914 on ebay..not running but repainted...body looked clean..etc....immediately it's down to only worth 900 bucks ...come on now that is bizarre...my 95 jeep was just totalled...not even driveable and I could buy it back for 1600...only thing useable in my jeep was the interior and high mileage engine.

Point is, the more we keep the value of these cars down the more likely we are hurting not only our own investments but the real/perceived value of our cars. I'm not into this for making money nor even recouping my investment (it's a fun thing for me)...but I do want to see the value of our cars continue to rise. Rising values will tell the community to keep investing in parts/enhancements and support. All things that go away when a car has no real perceived value!

I think that for the normal individual, there is very little money to be made off any one car, period. You’ll NEVER get your time or money investment back on a car unless you got an absolutely great deal on the car being used as a base, and even then they’re usually more curse than blessing. I think the only money to be made on cars is as a dealer or professional restorer.

Thanks to my former boss (who is now on a 356 bender – a coupe, a speedster, and restoring an SC and a Carrera 2) I’ve been privileged to hang around with big(ger) money Porsche types. One person said he only made money on ONE car in his twenty of years buying, selling and dealing with collectible cars -- 910s, 911s, Abarths, etc.

You also need to think of who you’re competing with and who you are selling to. Unless your $12+5k improved SC is significantly better, and appeals to just the right person (who has to have it now), you’ve moved the car into the next price bracket. Your car is working at the high end of its price bracket, and now has to deal with other (better?) cars at the low end of the next price bracket. Example: You have a beautiful ’71 1.7 tailshifter for $4K with non-stock options, and somebody is selling a worn, but good condition ’73 2.0 sideshifter for $5k. I’d be going for the ‘73.

You can complain about the wine-and-cheese-ers but they are the ones that have the scratch to throw $20k at a car that can sit in a garage and look pretty most of the time. They are also willing to put up with the foibles and quirks of a part-time driver car that is ‘correct’ rather than have the 'better' later-model that isn’t correct, no matter how much ‘nicer’ the seller thinks it is.

I think that expecting 'good' resale any car that isn't restored to showroom stock is not wise. Personal preference varies dramatically, and the only 'real' standard that would conform to the widest audience is showroom stock. The wider the audience, the greater likelihood that somebody will pay top dollar for your car.

There problem is that nobody values your time and choices like you do. A car is a set of compromises and the set you’ve chosen will most likely not match the set of compromises the next person is willing to accept. I don’t want a car that somebody else has worked on, because I get the impression that there is a bunch of ‘un-work’ to be done to reverse the compromises the previous owner found accept get the car to a desirable base.

One thing I see a bad in rising values is there is less money for aftermarket parts. The cheaper the car, the more cash we as a community have to squander on Konis, roller suspension bushings and whatnot. Those things make 914s better. Inflated values do nothing to make the car better or improve the bottom lines of the entrepreneurs.

This is the whole reason why I ceased so much 914 development engine wise...

Basically the 914 group won't spend more than what it takes to do a job "Bare bones"

The beetle following is much different and so is the 356 and 914 market.

The 914 is gaining popularity and recognition everyday, BUT thats not gonna help guys like me, that end up helping make the cars even better unless people start opening their wallets.

Hey cloudbuster- I was not talking about doing it for a living---I was talking about how an arguably better car, with better resale, or holding power, can in the long run be cheaper than what we are doing to ours. And resale much better...............

Try to focus on NOT doing a full-on rebuild with the other porsches( as most of them do not need it anyway), as most DO with the teener ( which SHOULD command a very good price, even if not done to concours) Those people putting 50k into a very good to start 911 are porsche fanatics who have much money to burn--that is not what I am talking about...Jim912928 hit the target on the head with this one.

I am just comparing how one could do very well with about 16k investment in another porsche model and us putting arguably much more into ours and then get nothing for it----

That is what has got my goat.

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/wink.gif) Cloudbuster--I would like to see you go to the nearest posche, audi, bmw, mercedes..etc shop and tell them what you just said in that post----How much you want to bet they would all tell you to go piss up a rope?????

bets,,huh, bets??????

Have another beer man--you need it.... (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/laugh.gif)

Sorry bud. I think you are kiddin' yourself if you think that changing the way we talk about our cars is going to have a meaningful impact on their values either way. We here collectively make up probably less than 1/10 0f 1% of folks who would be in the market for a 914. We can all decide amongst ourselves that as of today a decent 914 is worth no less than $5000. The net effect would be the same as deciding that the emperor's new clothes look great. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/w00t.gif) If the market thinks it ain't true, then it just ain't. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/confused24.gif)

The value of 914's will increase as the become harder to find in good shape, and those that do exist are cars that car guys would respect. I spend money on my teeners because I love them and I want them to be as fun and dependable as possible. If I was interested in investment values, I would not be spending the money on this or any other sports car. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/beerchug.gif)