Budget six conversion builders, Please tell us how you do it! Options

[anthony]

I compiled the following list of conversion parts. This is just to put a six cylinder engine in the car and doesn't include a 5 lug conversion or suspension mods. So for you guys that throw out low total conversion prices please tell us how you did it and how you cut costs. Often I see references to exceptional deals on engines that can't be easily reproduced or incomplete parts lists that don't include all the parts or headers/exhaust.

[Trekkor]

It's all in my thread... (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/rolleyes.gif)

Grant will likely document his, too.

KT

[brant]

Anthony,

I think people thow out numbers for bargain sale used Items...
but that not really fair since those kind of things are not readily available or even at all available sometimes.

Also, when compairing used, or very used parts it seams to me that a lot of times these $ figures are thrown out in comparison to new type 4 parts... I never see anyone quoting the t4 used jake motors when they quote used -6 motors or -6 parts.. (just an observation)

finally, I think you missed a couple of items in your list.
tach
shift linkage modification

so there are some cars out there that have done a good job on building their own parts, and buying items at fire clearance prices to keep the costs down... but for the average person who wants to buy new or is on a time schedule then your table is accurate.

brant

[Trekkor]

True about the deals (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif)

I got plenty.

KT

[J P Stein]

That's a fair assessment of goodies cost...and as Brant said, incomplete. Deals are out there, however.....like the incomplete project in OR. in the classifieds. Someone outta jump on that....if it ain't gone.

[anthony]

Brant, what is the shift linkage mod? I forgot about the tach. What are the costs on those two items?

Trekkor, do you have a spreadsheet of your costs? Other than super deals, can you comment on the list I posted and how you cut the costs?

In one of the other topics Grant threw out some numbers but he appeared to be missing half the parts needed. I asked about it but he didn't respond. Hopefully he will.

[Trekkor]

The shift rod mod keeps the stock rod from hitting the headers.

I did mine in an hour, at home- free!

tach prices will vary, EASY, Partsheaven, MikeZ, etc.

QUOTE

from  "Shall I say...SIX?" Jan 10 2005 Motor $1500 Oil tank, cooler, thermostat $800 Headers, muffler $400 Motor Mount bar $200 Shift rod mod, engine tin, bell crank $Free Cooler mod $100 AN Oil lines and hose end fittings $400 Fuel pump $100 Fuel pressure regulator $50 Alternator, guages, motor mounts, hardware, misc bits $400 $3950.

I had a great running FOUR, so I was in no hurry to do the conversion.
My advice is: don't start your conversion until all the parts are in hand.

With a pile of parts you can do the conversion in less than a week.


KT

[jetboy]

QUOTE (trekkor @ Feb 22 2006, 09:00 PM)

The shift rod mod keeps the stock rod from hitting the headers. KT

On the topic of the shift rod hitting the headers or heat exchangers with the side shift rod... Is this also true for a tailshifter rod? Or are there additional issues remaining with a tailshift trans?

[grantsfo]

I will list prices without tax and shipping. Pulled my actual invoices rather than doing this from memory (I have a shipping sponsor so all my big frieght is free)

Used (35,000 miles) but strong running 2.4 911 E engine with triple webers, 914-6 oil tank, filler, complete 914-6 engine tin set, 912 engine mount bar (sold for $50) $2375 (total cost minus sold part $2325)

MSDS Headers with 914club 20% discount $432 (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/clap56.gif)

Used Muffler. $250

Clutch conversion Kennedy Engineered Products Est. $500

I'm still shopping for the other items on your list and hope I will come under the prices you have quoted.

I was patient and shopped for nearly a year until I found my engine and conversion part deals. I lost plenty of ebay auctions and didnt get to classifieds in time for lots of 6 conversion part deals, but I was persistant and feel I'm making a budget 6 conversion a reality. Froogle.com is my freind too.

I remember when Trekkor was doing his budget 6 that some, includling myself, believed his situation was unusual and it wasnt realistic to do a 6 conversion for such low costs. Now I think I'm on track to make another budget conversion at similar cost.
However I may be unique as I'm all about function and budget rather than making a pretty car that wins popularity contests. My conversion 914-6 will be mechnically sound and well balanced track and AX car.

[914Timo]

Motor Mount, ~$20 materials
Engine sheet metal, ~$5 materials
914-6 oil cooler modification, 0$
Accellerator linkage kit, ~$5 materials
Headers, ~$30 materials

[thesey914]

Got my Flywheel for forty quid ($88 shipped) early 911 flywheel.

[John]

I am using a front mounted tank.

tank (Patterson Enterprises), Engine Breather, Tank Breather --$500
Oil Filter Canton-Mecca Racing -----$100
Motor Mounts Made my own ------Time (Watch my blog when I weld these in)
Engine Sheet Metal Made My own ----- Time (See my link below)
Oil Cooler Modification -----$25 for -16 90degree AN Fitting TIG welded at work for free
Accelerator linkage kit Made my own ----Time (I can't believe that most of you use the contraption that you do) (watch my BLOG)
AN Oil Lines ------ $450 or so
Front Oil Cooler -----$325
Front Oil Cooler Shroud Making my own ----Time
Shift Rod Modification Made my own ------Time
Axles (modified 914-6 axles to accept 911 CV Joints) --- Time
Front 911 suspension ------ $300
Headers (European Racing) ------ Gift
Muffler (have one from track car) ----- Free
Wheels --------- Gift
Rear Hubs & 911 Stub Axles and Trans Output Flanges (for 901) ------ came with engine package
911 axles (for the CV Joints) ------ came with the engine package
915 trans ---- Came with the engine package
915 shifter, rods/linkage --- came with engine package
Tach, Combo Gauge, Speedo, Fuel Pump, Coil, fuel lines ---came with engine package
915 clutch & pressure plate -- came with engine package
901 conversion flywheel, PP, clutch disk ---- had from previous conversion (to use until I convert the 915 for use in 914)
915-916 conversion kit ------ $1,500
Engine Package 3.2 w/Motronic, mated with 915 trans, all wiring, ECU, known running with good leakdown, no smoke, no leaks
with all above mentioned components ------ $8,000

I wanted to go as late model as I could afford with Motronic. I have done the carb thing, and this being a street car, I wanted something easy to start that will run smooth cold or hot. I spent the most money on the engine and 915 trans. Most others seem to find a budget motor somehow (it's those deals that are too good to be true and I'm never in the right place at the right time). I could easily take out $3000 to do it without the 915, but I figured that long term, I would end up going that way anyway experience kind of teaches those things.

I know for a fact that when my dad and I converted his car (he bought the parts and I put them in), he ended up spending a considerable amount more than I am now. This is mainly due to the fact that there are more resources available to me now than there was to him back then 14+ years ago. It seems that at the time, we were one of the first to do the 3.2 conversion, so there was nothing to compare to. Everything I fabricated was a one-off, like my engine mount, and my throttle linkage. Other items were figured out through VW-Porsche Magazine, Panorama, or phone conversations between my dad and some of the suppliers.

[brant]

QUOTE (grantsfo @ Feb 23 2006, 12:39 AM)

QUOTE (brant @ Feb 22 2006, 08:00 PM) Anthony, I never see anyone quoting the t4 used jake motors when they quote used -6 motors or -6 parts..  (just an observation) brant Talking about rare! I havent seen a used Raby engine the entire time I was shopping. And given durability of big bore T4 I would be suspect of buying a used 4. I did look at a couple used T4's that ultimately were more expensive than the 2.4 6 I found. There are a lot more nice used 6 cylinder engines in the market that assure prices are kept reasonable.

hmmm...
I thought my memory wasn't so good.
but I can think of 2 raby kits that have come along fairly recently....

Didn't mike Mueller sell a raby kit 2 months ago.
and someone else did too about 3 months ago.
both were unassembled, but I'll bet you that they sold for a fraction of what they cost new....

I myself sold a used hot -4 motor a few years ago. I sold it for 2100, but I had 6K+ into it.
The buyer got 150hp for $2100 with headers/carbs/electromotive/flywheel/everything

The point is...
that used motor prices to new motor prices are really an inaccurate comparison.

Everyone talks about doing their own welding and paying $0 dollars for things like cooler modifications... but should we not factor in the cost of the TIG class at the local votec school and perhaps the 2K$ that the TIG machine costs?

I agree a -6 conversion can be done cheaply in the 4K range.. but your failing to count your tools, skills, labor and time at that price estimate. Its really just cost shifting and bad accounting.

Let me frame it another way. Trekkor could of factored in the extra $3K of labor and fabrication that he invested into his project.

His total should read: $4K materials + $3K labor = $7K

Your motor was a hellacious deal. but you yourself said it took 12months to find... you cost shifted your time in exchange for a great deal...

not everyone is going to find a 1500 motor like trekkors that is in as good of a shape. In fact a lot of people could find 1500 motors that need 7K worth of rebuild.

brant

[John]

QUOTE

. but your failing to count your tools, skills, labor and time at that price estimate. Its really just cost shifting and bad accounting.

I don't agree. For me, this is a hobby, and the cost of this "project" is simply the expendatures incurred for this and only this "project".

Tools would be the cost of the "hobby".

Time is not included in "hobbies" as they are things done for fun. It is supposed to be something that you can spend time on and not worry about how long it takes to get there. FUN/Enjoyment is what hobbies are about.

Otherwise it becomes a business.

[iamchappy]

Shop for somebody else's project. You will end up way ahead in the long run.
I bought a six conversion PCA club racers roller. Check different PCA club classifieds,
I purchased mine from a San Diego PCA club member and ended up with a car that was complete all I needed was an engine and tires nothing more.

[goose2]

There's no way I can get a handle on my real costs. I bought a 6 parts car, sold a bunch of stuff from it, kept some, traded a 1.7 car and another for a semi completed 2.4 six conversion, sold the 2.4, bought a core 3.0, building the 3.0, bought another parts car, traded some more, got a load of 911 SC parts, sold and traded more, bought/sold/traded wheels, brakes, suspension.....this has all happened in less than 1 year....an accountant's nightmare. I think I'm doing pretty good cost wise...unless I count my time, then I'm screwed! Having fun though (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/cool.gif)

[brant]

There is a grey line there somewhere...
its a hobby to me also.

but when prepairing a cost list for someone else to use (someone that may have different skills, tools, resources, time) I don't think its fair to assume that they can get certain things done for free....

There was a post earlier from someone that wanted to rebuild a -6 motor themselves. They were asking if it was going to be expensive or if they were going to need special tools or skills.

Would it be fair to tell the guy "don't worry about it" you can get a bunch of used parts from motor meister and do the whole thing yourself for 700$ bucks!

I think that is a misrepesentation.

I think you tell the guy that he can invest in going to anderson's class, invest in books, invest in tools, and then do the work himself for another $3500 bucks. Or if he is on a tight time schedule and is working like an accountant at tax time, then he can pay someone like Jeff on our group to do the whole thing for 5K.....

same thing with conversion estimates.
I feel like quoting only the low end of the range is kinda like having a kitchen remodeler come into your house and when he quotes the job as costing between 6-8 grand, expecting it to be done ONLY on the low end of the quote...

How many people have gone a paint shop or body shop to bid their car and ended up spending more than the low end of the bid due to extra damage, or extra work while they were there...

I guess I'm being too sensitive...
I think that LOTS of deals can be had
LOTS of pieces can be self fabricated.
but Not everyone is going to be able to score a 4K conversion...

case in point..
with the exception of Grant and Trekkor, how many people on this board have more than 4K into their conversions. How many cars are for sale out there with 18K into them by the owner that paid shop rates for the conversion.

Its all a mater of how you add the numbers and how you use your time.

How often do I see people ask for motor mount suggestions... collaboratively as a club do we usually tell people to spend 20$ on sheet metal and build their own, or do we usually advise people to save themselves the headaches and buy a KNOWN good product from Rich Johnson?

I'm still comfortable telling a newbie that to do a conversion with a used motor is going to end up being $6K-8K and with a new motor $10K-12K on average and that he can save some a grand or two of that money if he is able to do more of his own work and fabrication.

brant

[John]

QUOTE

I think that LOTS of deals can be had LOTS of pieces can be self fabricated. but Not everyone is going to be able to score a 4K conversion...

Agreed. I see your point.

I just wish the topic starter would help clarify what they were intending to find out here.

A list of parts was posted with what I consider to be high prices for stuff that I can fabricate or source elsewhere. This list was missing one minor component (THE ENGINE).

My post went through all the items I paid for as well as those that I made myself in my shop (or at work). Being a mechanical engineer helps me to design stuff I need and allows me to work closely with fabricators who help me out (by TIG welding for free, etc.).

My conversion (less engine) is fairly inexpensive compared to the list originally provided, but each piece that I make is at least of equal quality to that on the list, and the prices on the list are more or less fair prices. I won't sell my engine sheet metal for less than $350/set because it takes me a whole weekend to fabricate. Sure it's about $10.00 material. I would rather do my hobby than someone elses.

I know others on the site that can fab thier own parts cheaper than they can buy them and others can get these screamin deals that the rest of us can only wish we could get.

I just don't know who comes up with the budget prices in the first place. Mine are actual costs.

[brant]

Grant,

you spent your time...
not everyone has time to surf the internet or look for that length of time...

agree'd there are Way more used -6's out there.
but my point was that people keep comparing used to new, and those numbers are apples to oranges.
I put a NEW motor in my conversion. Thats Apples to Apples but I didn't get it for $1500 bucks.

all of the 3-4K motors with 90 day warranties are exactly what I'm saying... 4K for motor 4K for parts = 8K
(for the AVERAGE guy...minus 1-2 thousand if they do there own fabrication and search for deals.)

I don't disagree that its possible.
I think your car will be awesome.
I think Trekkor's car is awesome.
I think that its misleading to tell every newbie with less skills, less experience, and less knowledge that 4k total is the norm.

brant

[Kerrys914]

If things go well you can reproduce close to Trekkor's conversion. My budget conversion was hit by alot of BAD luck...This = $$$$$

Broken exhaust stud = Topend rebuild and re-ringed ($700+/-)

Bad ignition system = wasted $200+/-

Carb parts to get engine tuned = $200 +/-

Good deal on engine mount tuning out to be a bad deal wasted $150+/-

New tools because you need new tools = $200 +/-

Any $$ to by the new items all these DAM 914 parts inventors keep making (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif)


I think I ran about $2000 over budget. I would say plan on $6000 and hope for less (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/wink.gif)



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