Budget six conversion builders, Please tell us how you do it! Options

[brant]

QUOTE (JOHNMAN @ Feb 23 2006, 11:32 AM)

Agreed. I see your point. I just wish the topic starter would help clarify what they were intending to find out here. A list of parts was posted with what I consider to be high prices for stuff that I can fabricate or source elsewhere. This list was missing one minor component (THE ENGINE). My post went through all the items I paid for as well as those that I made myself in my shop (or at work). Being a mechanical engineer helps me to design stuff I need and allows me to work closely with fabricators who help me out (by TIG welding for free, etc.). My conversion (less engine) is fairly inexpensive compared to the list originally provided, but each piece that I make is at least of equal quality to that on the list, and the prices on the list are more or less fair prices. I won't sell my engine sheet metal for less than $350/set because it takes me a whole weekend to fabricate. Sure it's about $10.00 material. I would rather do my hobby than someone elses. I know others on the site that can fab thier own parts cheaper than they can buy them and others can get these screamin deals that the rest of us can only wish we could get. I just don't know who comes up with the budget prices in the first place. Mine are actual costs.

John,

I think your list of your actual costs is GREAT!

I love these little bugger cars, and I love to spend my money on learning skills, buying tools, and then using that knowledge to play.

I think your list of costs very accurately answered the original thread question..

again... I don't know why I got so hung up on this thread. But I hate misrepresenting things and like all things in life, the cost of the conversion can be done on different budgets and in different ways.

p.s. I think you deserve to get $ for your tin work.
Just like Rich Johnson deserves to get his $ for an engine mount... good products are worth money! places like snap-on stay in business because of value

[brant]

QUOTE (Kerrys914 @ Feb 23 2006, 11:41 AM)

If things go well you can reproduce close to Trekkor's conversion. My budget conversion was hit by alot of BAD luck...This = $$$$$ Broken exhaust stud = Topend rebuild and re-ringed ($700+/-) Bad ignition system = wasted $200+/- Carb parts to get engine tuned = $200 +/- Good deal on engine mount tuning out to be a bad deal wasted $150+/- New tools because you need new tools = $200 +/- Any $$ to by the new items all these DAM 914 parts inventors keep making (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif) I think I ran about $2000 over budget. I would say plan on $6000 and hope for less (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/wink.gif) (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/smash.gif) (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/smash.gif) (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/smash.gif) (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/welder.gif) (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/welder.gif) (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/welder.gif) (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/sawzall-smiley.gif) (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/sawzall-smiley.gif) (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/sawzall-smiley.gif)

and some bad luck should be factored into a budget when you are gambling on finding 1500 complete motors.

I'm not referring specifically to Kerry or even specifically to Trekkor.... I'm more referring to any new guy that thinks he can roll the dice and complete the whole job for 4K

brant

[736conver]

If your patience it can be done cheap. If you handy and can weld even cheaper.

Made my own 6 mount.
Modified my shift bar.
Made my own 6 throttle linkage.

Bought a 1971 911, that had a running motor with zentihs for $1500. Car was trashed but had deep dish 901 wheels. Sold the wheels for $1200. Took the front end for my car and sold the rest of the car for $1000.

So I got and engine and a front end and made $700 which went for other parts.

[Kerrys914]

I went with a 2.2 engine due to cost ONLY. I new the conversion would be tight money wise and the 911 guys are dumping the smaller engines for low $$. My thinking was to use the 2.2 engine for a year or so and save for a larger SIX. Once I have the 2.2 running and working great the swap tp a larger motor. As long as I don't go silly larger the upgrade should be just the cost of the complete engine.

My goal (at day 1) was to get a old running SIX for around $1500. I knew it would be tired but it was only to last a summer or two. Now, due to the issues I had, I have a very nice running engine with a fresh top end, new seals, and new rings +.

The biggest killer is the "While you are there" thoughts you get.

The conversion took twice as long and was a MASSIVE learning experience. I can't wait until the spring and really get to drive my SIX. I finished it late last summer.

This year it will get further tuned and some new shoes

[Mike D.]

I went with the incomplete project route. I already had a '74 2.0 and found a 73 with 5 lug and unfinished conversion for $5K. I took everything I wanted from the 73 and put my 74 engine and 4 lug suspension on it then sold it as a running car for $2200. So I had everything to build my car for $2800 plus a few hundred for misc. gaskets, oil cooler, lines and fittings, jets, fuel pump, etc. Did all the work myself, so I'm in pretty good shape there $.

The only down side is that the engine in the conversion car was supposed to be a 2.7 and turned out to be a 2.0. but still a great deal for all the parts.

[brant]

QUOTE (grantsfo @ Feb 23 2006, 12:19 PM)

brant [/QUOTE] I think it may even be more misleading to direct a newbie to a big bore T4. Newbies are probably better off with a stock rebuild using stock FI. I factored in an additional $7K into my project just in case the engine had problems. I still would be ahead of the cost of a 2270 Massive 4 build with aftermarket fuel injection or carbs

Grant,

I'm not trying to argue that a type 4 is a better deal or cheaper... your misunderstanding my conviction in all of this...

I'm trying to show that the $4,000 number is not a realistic number to thow out to everyone.... And that if your going to give someone any numbers at all, then you should make those numbers accurate and give them full disclosure on both sides of the 4-vs-6 debate.

you were smart to factor in the extra money..
but how come in all the threads about cheap conversions no one is telling this idea of having a safety net budget to the general public...

I love the -6...
I've raced both and clearly love the -6
but I don't tell my close friends to jump into a project like this with a blindfold on and $4,000 in their hand.

(I more realistically tell them that they need a lot of skill or else 6-8K to do it... and if they are picky son's-of-Beaches like Ferg or Greg, then I tell them to plan on 12K+)

god bless... I hope you get yours done for 4K
and your on the right path with the screaming deal on your motor.... There certainly needs to be more than 1 or 2 people out there who have done it... but I'll bet there are still another thousand people in the US of A who have spend closer to $10K on their conversions.

brant

[lapuwali]

I think the lesson here is the AVERAGE conversion cost is going to be $9-10K, not the minimum cost. If you're patient, lucky, and resourceful, you can beat this number by a lot. Some will spend a lot more, either due to mishap, or because they want more.

The $4K number IS legit and realistic, but you're looking at the bottom end of the scale, where you have to work a lot harder to get a good result. Where someone can't or won't put in the time and effort that Trekkor did (not everyone has a job that allows them to repeatedly spend several consecutive days on something like this), is going to spend more. Trekkor also got the least desirable engine. Using a 2.7 or 3.0 would instantly add $2-4K to the pricetag, just in buying the engine, at a minimum.

Can it be done for $4K? Obviously. Can YOU do it for $4K? A very different question. For most people, the answer would be no.

[Mark Henry]

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/agree.gif)

Compare apples to apples guys


I could do an el-cheapo T4 for about $1000 and it would have more power than a tired 2.0/6...hell of a lot less work. But I have the resources.

How much does headrage have into his /6 now...just a bit of bad luck.

Back on the bird board one member (posting in this thread) sent me his list (.pdf) with about $15,000 in parts. His car is still not what I call done.

How much do some of the guys really have into some of there conversions here??"? of the low budget jobs here how many are real hackjobs??

Some of the guys going "hell ya I get/do everything cheap" have talents, tools, time, friends and resources way beyond the scope of the regular guy.
To me their good advice is just piss poor advice in drag.

[Dr Evil]

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/agree.gif)

Mark is right. I have a fresh 2.7 because I have fiends, and a knack for finding deals on things.

...did I mention friends? Oh, and friends.

For a shop I did find a cheap AND good shop in San Diego. For tools you need to look around becasue deals are to be had. I used Engine Builder Supply for all of my parts and I researched new data to compare with ancient wizdom to save $$ and educate my self (like regarding alusil p/c and reconditioning rockers).

And friends!

[brant]

QUOTE (grantsfo @ Feb 23 2006, 03:06 PM)

QUOTE (brant @ Feb 23 2006, 12:03 PM) you were smart to factor in the extra money.. but how come in all the threads about cheap conversions no one is telling this idea of having a safety net budget to the general public... I'm well humored about this whole thing. My key point is that when people talk about big bore T4's they almost always underestimate conversion costs, yes conversion costs. There are countless threads here where plenty of people warn about hidden costs of a 6 conversion, but few warn about the true costs of a big bore t4. I did do some home work around Big Bore T4's . When discussing these engines people often discount the cost of fuel delivery conversion costs, exhaust system costs, oil cooler costs, clutch upgrades, critical gauges to measure temps, ignition systems, machining work and plenty more if you dont want a hack job Massive 4. I am also leary of true long term logevity of big bore t4's for track use. Plenty of validated data that shows longevity of stock sixes. Very little verifiable data about big bore t4 reliability other than here say. There are plenty of accounts of low mileage blown big bore T4s. And ulitmately most people dont factor in increased resale value of a 914-6 conversion over a big bore T4. As long as I dont do a complete hack job my 914-6 conversion should be worth at least $3K more than a big bore t4 conversion. I factored this value increase into my cost justification as well.

but Grant....
you forget the title of this thread.
it wasn't:
4 versus 6

in fact it I'll quote the question:

" So for you guys that throw out low total conversion prices please tell us how you did it and how you cut costs. Often I see references to exceptional deals on engines that can't be easily reproduced or incomplete parts lists that don't include all the parts or headers/exhaust"

to which I answer...
those prices thrown around are the exception and not the norm. The are achieved by thrifty spending, luck, patience, and by investing sweat equity. The average person will not be able to replicate that price and will usually spend more money than 4K.

brant

[Mueller]

QUOTE (brant @ Feb 23 2006, 09:52 AM)

Didn't mike Mueller sell a raby kit 2 months ago. and someone else did too about 3 months ago. both were unassembled, but I'll bet you that they sold for a fraction of what they cost new....

yep, sold my Raby kit, didn't take that much of beating since it was easy to prove the parts are new and buyer knew what I paid for the parts.....wouldn't matter if I had been building a /6, people still wouldn't want to pay full retail price from a private party.......

as to taking a "loss" on your rebuilt /4, same thing would happen with a rebuilt /6...i

still don't know why how this turned into a /4 bashing session for Grant...guess he'll be diss'n all us /4 owners pretty soon cause "we're not worthy" hahahaha

[flesburg]

Hello,
Johnman is going through a conversion now, and it somewhat replicates what we did earlier, during the winter of 90-91.
At that time I found a 43K mile complete 3.2 engine, control panel through flywheel from Oklahoma salvage for $6500. That was a reasonably good price at the time, and for a 43K mile engine. It still had cosmoline on the case...

We did a lot of the work...a lot. And I bought a lot of parts, sheet metal, oil cooler, tank etc. But for example, John completely rebuilt the wiring harness using the 87 carrera prints and the 914 prints. I would hate to even guess what that would have cost, but there was not one un-needed wire left when he finished with it. I could have never done that job.

Not counting our labor at all I spent 12K on the conversion. 12 years later we put a 915 trans in the car with a quaife, and I spent another 9k. Trans, shifter kit, and axles, clutch and flywheel.. 21K with a 3.2 and a 915.

But I cannot think of a nicer car I could have for 16 years than this conversion...It still runs great, and has cost about $1200 per year, and it will still run with the medium size dogs, such as a BoxterS at Heartland park. Sorry it will not keep up with a viper tho, but it cost 20% of a house less than a Viper.

Engine and all, I think anything less that what I spent is just "better luck than I ever have" .

[Mark Henry]

I take it Grant's pissed of at Jake Raby for some reason?

QUOTE

Friends don’t let friends buy Massive Fours

[brant]

QUOTE (Mueller @ Feb 23 2006, 04:07 PM)

as to taking a "loss" on your rebuilt /4, same thing would happen with a rebuilt /6...i

Mike that is so true...

In fact I just realized that I'm living proof.

In the -6 world, Henry Schmidt is kinda a guru.
He is kinda like the "Jake" of the -6 motor world.
In fact he build my -6, but I bought it not directly from him but rather from a guy who had it built and never used it.

so I got a good deal.

In fact I got it at 50% of its value, even though it never was started, never installed, and never even had oil poured into it.

but If I was the guy that paid Henry full price to build it then I would have taken a heavy loss....

brant

[John]

I'm sorry.

Maybe I misunderstood what this thread is all about.

Perhaps I don't belong in this thread.

When I started my current conversion, I didn't even have a "budget". My conversion started shortly after I started getting quoted prices to rebuild a stock D-Jet 2.0. I was starting with a known good and fully functional D-Jet system and a fairly low mile core 2.0. I was needing the heads to be totally rebuilt. (Len Hoffman quoted a lot of money to do the work, and I feel fairly sure that it would have been done right, but I have no true experience with him or his company.) I was needing to have the case checked out and fitted with new bearings, a new cam (the old one had big flat spots), and the crank and rods R&R'ed. When the prices for materials and labor (no assembly) got to be higher than $5000.00 for a 4-cylinder which was never my long term goal, my wife asked why I don't put that money toward a 6-cyl (which had been my long term goal for quite some time).

When my wife made that statement, I jumped at the opportunity. I had no fixed budget, but I knew I wanted the best engine and latest engine that I could afford at the time. I knew I would be fabricating everything that I could to save cost.

I simply didn't plan on a fixed budget. So perhaps I don't really belong in this thread.

If I was to advise someone else how much it COSTS to do a /6 conversion, I would tell them anywhere from about $6,000 up. If they do all the work, and they are resourceful and patient, they could come close to this number. If on the other hand, they drop the car off at a professional shop (I won't name names), stand back and open your wallet.........

It's kind of like buying a yacht. (If you have to ask, you don't have enough money).

THIS IS NOT and I repeat NOT AN INVESTMENT (unless you like crappy returns on your money). These cars are toys at best. (just don't tell my wife even if she already knows)

[anthony]

John, your input is valued. I started this thread because in the 4 vs. 6 topics we've had recently one of the frequent arguements is that 'one can do a six conversion for $4,000 so why bother with a more expensive four'.

We have a known set of parts required to do a six conversion. Those parts list for about $4500 (not including the cost of the engine). I honestly wanted to know how one shaves the costs. I think this has turned out to be a good topic since I've learned a few things.

So, if (big if IMO) one can fabricate their own tin, weld their own oil cooler mod, weld the shift rod mod, build their own linkage kit, and make their own oil lines they could reasonably shave $1500 off the $4500 over the counter price tag of the conversion parts. That still leaves $3K plus the cost of the engine plus labor. Timo suggested making his own headers and bulkhead mount but I think that is probably unrealistic for most club members contemplating a six.

Out of the 776 people that have viewed the topic only one has done the $4000 conversion and the other is on his way. In both cases it took a way below market deal on an engine and key conversion parts.

I think the conclusion here is that one can reasonably do a six conversion for $3500-4500 plus the cost of the engine. Much less with killer deals and more fabrication. The flip side is that the costs can skyrocket if that inexpensive six cylinder engine turns out to be a dud. That's one thing that people often forget to mention.

[anthony]

And this topic wasn't meant to be another 4 vs. 6 topic. Both routes IMO have their merits.

I think it will be a good reference for people contemplating a conversion and seeing how much it reasonbly costs. It will also give people clues as to where they can shave costs.

[Mark Henry]

I think you're about right on the money.

IMO if your under 140hp you may as well stick with the /4

140 to 180hp it's a crap shoot.

180+hp go for the /6

In the end it's what you want.

[John]

You can't beat the sweet sound of a Porsche flat 6 when it's on it's cams.....

I did my own mount. It's the one my dad and I discussed a couple years after I did his car. It is surprisingly similar to the RJ mount, but the concept is at least 12 years old. I still have my original pencil sketches.

You will have to look at my BLOG for details. I should be welding the mounts in either this weekend (02/25/06) or next (03/04/06).

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[Dr Evil]

Tin has a few options. $400 fro the metal, $100 from Root Works (back yard Bob. I have a set for sale), $150 for the fiberglass repros.

Lines are not all that expensive. Check out Mittle motor. They are in Germany and have many things for low $$$. You will need to order enough to make it worht while as shipping is $50.

Tanks are around from $350-600 last I checked.

You can get a 7R case 2.7 with CIS for less than most /6 motors as they are not the most desireable. Drive on it for a while and then upgrade if you see fit. About 165 with CIS and 200 or so carbed. CIS gets you about 30mpg, carbs 15-18.

Flywheels are about $150 used from most places that I looked at that were privat party.

Scan ebay.

I was given a tired engine for free (thanks James). Lucky me it was timeserted, but I tore it down completely and took it to a shop for evaluation.

I only spent about $1800 total on the rebuild as I did the lower half my self less machine work (which was not needed).

Oil coolers can be modified for cheap if ou know people. The guy who rebuilt the rest of my engine did my oil cooler for $10. I can give you the contact in San Diego if you want to look into it.

Just some #s to give you more scope.