My 72 914 Corvair Conversion Rust(me)oration- Work begins on page 4, Pulled drivetrain today. Tranny swap coming soon Options

[JRust]

Okay so here is my teaser! I've always wanted a 914-6. I finally took the plunge & bought one. Most of you are probably thinking it is a v6 or some crazy thing (IMG:style_emoticons/default/idea.gif) . You've got a week to just sit there & wonder

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/thisthreadisworthlesswithoutpics.gif) .Yeah I know (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

[mrholland2]

Sooo. . it turns anticlockwise now?? huh? I'm cornfoosed

[sixnotfour]

164 cubic inch 110 HP

[JRust]

164 cubic inch 110 HP

Thats basically what the 2.0 original 914-6 motor had wasn't it? At least HP wise.

I was reading up on Wikipedia & it sounded like in 66 there was a 140hp motor. Here is the article I was reading

For the 1965 model year, all engines had the head gasket area between the cylinder and the head widened, with a new design folded "Z" section stainless steel head gasket virtually eliminating any risk of head gasket failure. A 140 hp (104 kW) version with four single barrel carburetors, and a progressive linkage was introduced in 1965 as option L63 'Special High Performance Engine' and was standard equipment on the Corsa model. The carburetors consisted of a single barrel primary and a single barrel secondary on each head, connected by a progressive linkage; in addition, the heads featured a 9.25:1 compression ratio, and the cars received dual exhaust systems. Engines supplied with the automatic transmission after spring 1965 were modified with a camshaft from the 95 horsepower (71 kW) base engine, and a special crankshaft gear that retarded its timing 4 degrees- the former to increase torque and smooth the idle with the Powerglide transmission, the latter to restore some of the peak horsepower lost at higher engine speeds by the economy contoured camshaft with short timing.

1966 engines were basically carryover from the 1965 models, however Corvairs sold in California (except turbocharged models) now featured the General Motors Air Injection Reactor System (AIR), an emissions control system consisting of an engine driven air pump that drew filtered air from the air cleaner, and injected a metered amount into the exhaust manifolds via tubing to promote complete oxidation and combustion of exhaust gasses to lower emissions. Specially calibrated carburetors and slight changes to the ignition timing and advance curves were part of the package. The AIR system had an unfortunate effect of substantially raising exhaust gas, valve and head temperatures, particularly under heavy loads and this was a drawback on the Corvair where engine cooling could not be easily improved to cope with the higher temperatures. Nonetheless, performance and drivability were not noticeably affected in most circumstances. In 1968, all Corvair (and other GM) engines got the AIR system for every market. The combined heat load imposed by the AIR system, along with air conditioning, made air conditioning unavailable as an option after 1967, and on all earlier Corvairs with the AIR system.[size=2]

[Drums66]

,,,,,1965-66
95hp
110hp
140hp
Turbocharged 180hp ,all 6-164 as stated above (IMG:style_emoticons/default/idea.gif)
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/bye1.gif)

[JRust]

,,,,,1965-66
95hp
110hp
140hp
Turbocharged 180hp ,all 6-164 as stated above (IMG:style_emoticons/default/idea.gif)
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/bye1.gif)

Blast must be the 110 then. Well hopefully when they did the rebuild reversing everything. They improved it some between it all. Until I drive it I'll just have to be curious (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)

[Sleepin]

Time for a turbo!

[rick 918-S]

914Coop (Irv) and his son are doing a turbo car right now. It's close to being done mechanically I guess. I want to visit him and check his progress but I have been way to busy. He may chime in.

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?sho...=132215&hl=

[carr914]

I'd Buy That!

[carr914]

914Coop (Irv) and his son are doing a turbo car right now. It's close to being done mechanically I guess. I want to visit him and check his progress but I have been way to busy. He may chime in.

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?sho...=132215&hl=

Do It! Us connected Folks Need to Know

[billh1963]

Friend of mine in high school had several Corvairs...back when you could literally get one for $25 or even free. His driver was a '66 coupe with the fairly rare (at least I think they were rare) 4 speed. We drove that car everywhere.

The only issue was the thing liked throwing alternator belts....which could be changed in just a couple of minutes. The engine was very reliable and only need the occasional valve adjustment.

[r3dplanet]

I've got this exact motor sitting in my garage now. I've always wanted to do this conversion with the VW Type-1 94mm P&C conversion to make a 3.2 liter engine. Fabulous engine. No valve adjustments. Lots and lots of power. Lots of choices for fuel and exhaust options.

If you have one port on each intake, and the motor was made from 1965-1967, then you have the 110hp engine. That's widely considered to be the best motor. If you have two ports on each intake, then it's likely to be the 140hp motor. The only difference between the two was the intake configuration of the heads. The 140 actually didn't produce more speed or acceleration until it revved pretty high. But the 110 is quicker off the line. So that extra 30hp didn't present itself until you got up there a ways.

I have the tables for engine codes, so if you supply the last two letters of the engine serial number I can tell you what you have.

Another little bit of trivia is that the Corvair engine was originally designed to run what we now call reverse rotation. But GM reversed the rotation of the motor to use a stock GM transmission. When you change it back to the correct rotation, the engine actually runs better with a bit more power.

Originally I thought about rebuilding my Corvair motor as a turbo, but I got to thinking that a five-speed gearbox was never an option for the motor. Given that the Corvair was the first American production car with a turbo, it wasn't terribly fancy. It was reliable but with no waste gate or liquid cooling it was quite primitive. The turbo lag on these motors is really significant and so my thought was that this lag would never keep up with the quicker ratios of the 901 gearbox. Maybe in 4th gear and passing, but that's probably all. I don't think the turbo is worth the trouble. But an air-cooled turbo is impressive.

Also keep in mind that these HP ratings were old style, with an almost bare motor mounted on a stand, measured at the flywheel. So when we use terms like 110 and 140, those are really better used as designations. Real HP would probably be something like 90-110 at the wheel.

In my opinion, and tongue-waggling desire, even a 140 motor doesn't make much more power than a good hopped up Type 4. But you get a silent valve train (hydraulics rule!) and a sweet sounding motor. This isn't unlike the Porsche 2.7 six, which was only slightly faster than the 2.0.

If you have your druthers, you should do the VW P&C conversion, skip the turbo, and rock it. Hopefully your motor is already reverse rotation - as opposed to a flipped ring gear in the transmission. The motor will be good for 250k-300k miles with little to do but changing the oil. Also, you now have a 200hp motor. Even with the head work and the custom machining for the P&Cs (Starr Cooke on Ebay sells them ready to go), you'll be bucks ahead. You probably already have a fuel system, so you've already saved a bunch of money. You can do a 4-into-1 carb, four carb setup (factory), triple Webers, dual Webers, etc.

Of all the 914 engine conversions I think the Corvair is the best way to go. All in all you're looking at $4-$5K for all new parts on the engine rebuild, which is just leaps and bounds ahead of any VW Type-4 for dollars spent on power, reliability, and longevity. And it's only a fraction of what a Porsche six would cost to rebuild. Plus, it's air cooled, bolt-in, and entirely reversible without cutting one little bit of the body. No reason to tear up the car like a Subaru conversion.

My $.02 cents. I'll live vicariously through your project! Congratulations!

-marcus

[billh1963]

Really good points, Marcus.

People look down their noses at the Corvair because of Nader;but, putting that aside the engine was actually pretty darn reliable.

[r3dplanet]

Nader's points about the safety of the car were valid. Lousy rear suspension exactly like an early Beetle, crummy brakes, flimsy sheet metal, etc. More copies of Unsafe at Any Speed were sold than the 1.7 million Corvairs. GM listened and redesigned the car to make all of the necessary changes for the 1964 model, but by then the damage was done and the Mustang V8 and Plymouth Barracuda V8 was out and shoppers wanted V8 motors.

For for all of the flap about Nader, he never complained about the engine. Nobody did. Just guilt by association. If you think about it, in modern times if a car manufacturer sells 30-50k models of anything it's a huge success. 1.7 million cars is absolutely stellar.

-m.

[914Sixer]

I got to drive one of the 1966 180 turbo cars when I was in high school. They were really bad ass but REALLY hard to keep between the bar ditches, ie poor suspension.

[JRust]

If you have your druthers, you should do the VW P&C conversion, skip the turbo, and rock it. Hopefully your motor is already reverse rotation.

It is reverse rotation already. It also has dual weber 40's on it. Guy thinks there is a vacuum leak on one of the intakes. Slight pop on decel sometimes. 3 to1 headers on each side running dual exhaust. It also occasionally misses on the starter. I'm thinking the flywheel might be missing some teeth. Just a few of the things I'll be troubleshooting after I get it.

I am interested in learning more about the VW P&C conversion. You have a specific thread or article on it?

[sgetsiv]

Let me know when you're ready for paint. She's going to be a beauty!!!

[r3dplanet]

Jamie -

The scoop on the VW P&C conversion is that while better stock replacement Corvair cylinders and Keith Black pistons are available for cheap, the VW Type-1 design is better. Better alloy, more fins, better cooling, etc. They're almost a bolt-in to the Corvair case. Almost. To make them fit the two middle of the six need to be shaved a bit and some of the stud holes need to be widened. They also need the bottom skirt material to be shaved down .300". There's an excellent video detailing the process here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B1x9vccK-N4

The big bore conversion is a four step process:

(1) The cheapest thing to do is to find a machinist who's familiar with the process and find some good quality, new Type-1 94mm cylinders which are quite inexpensive. Then find some 94mm KB pistons and pins.

(2) Next, you have to have a machinist flycut the heads to accept the larger diameter cylinders. That's a good time to make sure that your heads have been "staked" and modernized to solved the valve drop issue notorious to the early Corvair engines, but easily solved for decades now with the proper procedures.

(3) The case needs to have the cylinder bores expanded slightly to accept the new cylinders.

(4) You'll probably have to grind a little off each connecting rod and then re-balance them. When the case hemispheres are bolted up initially, you can examine the rotating assembly and see where this needs to be done and do it yourself. Or have your machinist do it.

Now, you do have options. You can buy the heads and cylinders all ready to go from a well respected guy on Ebay who sells the entire heads with a new valve job and modifications ready to go for usually less than one grand. He also sells the cylinders already machined. Or you can send your stuff to him for just the machine work. See:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Corvair-140-Big-Va...c02&vxp=mtr

and

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Corvair-94mm-VW-ba...f44&vxp=mtr

* OR *

You could do what I planned to do and enlist another respected outfit, American-Pi, and pay $1575 for them to supply you with new cylinders, pistons, and rings and then do all the machining you need in one stop shopping.

http://www.american-pi.com/corvair/corvhome.html

You send them your heads, case, and rods and they do the rest. The Corvair guys have reports of glad tidings and positive reviews for their work. Shipping is a touch expensive, but it's not all that bad. They send you basically everything ready to assemble yourself, assuming that you already have a reverse rotation cam, gear, and distributor drive gear. And you do. I think that this would really be the way to go for most people, including myself. The good news is that the heads you need to use are the heads you already have, not the early ones. So you're ideally poised for the conversion.

What all this gets you is power and reliability. The VW pistons and cylinders are a way better design, and makes the engine run much cooler and greatly prolongs its life. And of course it doubles your HP. So even if you were doing just a rebuild of a standard Corvair engine this would make all kinds of sense. Since you already have excellent working cores, a good reverse-rotation engine, and a good fuel system, you basically spend $1600 and a weekend and you're off to the races.

I like to remember that at the end of the day GM basically wanted their own version of a Karmann Ghia. A bigger car but still clearly a 1950s body style with a more powerful air cooled rear engine and a ton more leg room. They prototyped the Corvair with a VW engine and then transferred the design to a six cylinder to haul around a heaver car. So there's a goofy kind of circular logic with this whole process.

At least in mind it does. But I'm a crazy person so who knows where the reality is focused.

Did you find the engine serial number yet? It's on top of the case right up by the front belt pulley. Also, can you send a photo of your carb/intake setup?

-marcus

[JRust]

I got a few full size pics but none of the motor. This will be it until I pick it up saturday. It doesn't look to impressive I know. It needs paint for sure but is supposed to be solid rust wise. Which is why I bought it. Well that & it runs/drives. If I get there & I find rust (IMG:style_emoticons/default/icon8.gif) it won't be coming home with me. While I am a sucker when it comes to 914's. I have yet to totally screw myself with one (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif) . Updates to follow when I get it this weekend

[JRust]

Well I picked it up. In Woodland CA getting breakfast. Then heading home. Here are a couple pics. Runs fine but I didn't do anything but drive it up on the trailer. Checked it for rust & it is excellent. Just some surface in the rear trunk & a little in the interior.

[billh1963]

Very cool! You may have already said it; but, what kind of carbs are on it now? Four of the single barrel Solex style (from the 140) or something else?