hot start kit, making my own Options

[jasons]

point is, i feel the "ford fix" gives the driver a false sense of security.

everybody knows about keeping the bat term clamps and posts clean. snip the end, say 1", off the +lead for the starter at the battery end, and peel back the insulation. more often than not, the strands are covered with corrosion.

k

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif) 100%

My point is, the electrical principles for using the relay are sound. But, if your starter is going bad, its going bad. The relay aint fixin' that, its just buyin' time. Relaying power is not a bad idea, just a little mis-used and mis-understood.

[jasons]

comparing starter gauge wire to headlight gauge wire, is like oranges to unicorns.

k

I'm talking about the wire that runs 12 feet through your harness through the switch down to your solenoid and engages the starter. Not the cable that feeds the starter motor.

[Brett W]

I had a rebuilt Bosch starter and my battery was located in the front trunk. I connect the battery with 1/0 welding cable. Never had any kinds of hot start problems. In fact on the last car I worked on it had one of those goofy ass relays. Tossed it and now it works much better.

But I dure do hate having to replace the key switch. There really should be some sort of relay in the starting circuit. it is the same principle that the H4 conversions use. Small wire from the headlight switch to the relay so the switch doesn't have to carry a bunch of current. Most new cars have a starter relay.

[jk76.914]

I subscribe to the opinion that battery-ignition switch-starter motor is too long a path for the gauge wire used. Especially with a detour to a seatbelt interlock relay under the passenger seat.

There's a way to ad a relay at the starter without having to put one there that can handle a welder.

If you look at the schematic for the solenoid, you'll see that there are actually two coils there- a pull-in coil and a hold-in coil. Once the armature is all the way in, the magnetic circuit is completed and it takes very little energy to hold it there. Once the armature is seated, it closes a monster switch that dumps the + bat into the motor.

The pull-in coil, which draws a lot of current, is shorted out by that same monster switch. This is because the pull-in coil is actually connected to ground through the motor itself. So when the motor is connected to + bat, both poles of the pull-in coil winding are connected to +12v, and it's shut off.

So you can hook one side of your relay coil to the yellow wire coming from the ignition switch (keep the yellow wire from the ignition switch connected to the solenoid as well!!!) and the other side of the coil to the input to the starter motor itself. This terminal is accessible, though not used normally. It's the big lug on the solenoid adjacent to the motor. A strap carries the current directly into the motor. Take off the nut, and use a big ring lug to attach a wire for the relay coil. Always sandwich ringlugs bettween star washers, which cut through oxidation and form a gas-tight seal. Replace the nut.

What this does is it ensures that the relay drops out AFTER the current has already stopped flowing through the pull-in winding- which is the high current winding- but before the car has even started cranking. The hold in coil, which actually draws little current, is still being energized through the ignition switch, so there's no inductive kick to burn out the contacts.

I wired mine up this way in 1985, with a Bosch 30 amp relay, and it's still working fine with the same relay.

Another thing to look at on '74 (?) and later 914's is the connection under the passenger seat for the seatbelt interlock. Mine was disconnected before I bought the car in 1983, but the heavy yellow wire faston connectors had corroded and had a high resistance. I cut them, soldered them, and put shrink sleaving over them.

Also, I think the + battery cable could stand to be heavier gauge. I'm using AWG 1 there, plus I added an AWG 1 ground cable to the starter bolt on the engine side. AWG 1 is tough to handle, unless you get the kind that's made up of a lot of smaller gauge wires than the standard automotive stuff. It's available by the foot at marine supply places, is very flexible, and the strands are individually tin plated as a bonus. You can get the big lugs, a cheap crimping tool, and heavy duty shrink sleaving at the same place.....

If anyone's interested, I have a schematic and pictures....

Jim

[jasons]

I had a rebuilt Bosch starter and my battery was located in the front trunk. I connect the battery with 1/0 welding cable. Never had any kinds of hot start problems. In fact on the last car I worked on it had one of those goofy ass relays. Tossed it and now it works much better.

But I dure do hate having to replace the key switch. There really should be some sort of relay in the starting circuit. it is the same principle that the H4 conversions use. Small wire from the headlight switch to the relay so the switch doesn't have to carry a bunch of current. Most new cars have a starter relay.

I'm not trying to be a dick but.....

Did you just say you removed the goofy ass relay that the car should have?

[Rand]

In fact on the last car I worked on it had one of those goofy ass relays. Tossed it and now it works much better.

I'm not trying to be a dick but..... Did you just say you removed the goofy ass relay that the car should have?

I'm guessing he's talking about a band-aid relay that was added by a previous owner, not a factory part.

I'm in the same boat. I had a starting problem, but it was caused by a cracked ignition switch. In the repair process though, I cleaned things up and also tossed the relay that a PO installed.

I understand and respect the guys who make their case for the Ford relay. It makes sense.

But I'm in the camp that it's not necessary if things are healthy. The solenoid acts as a relay of sorts for the cranking power (the ignition switch circuit only powers the solenoid, not the starter). A relay ahead of the solenoid is just extra junk that only helps dirty or circuits or ailing parts.

[Mark Henry]

the lord knows how old starter WITH the solenoid installed gave up. this was on the way to wcc04'. i called high perfomance house from eureka and rich/brad had one waiting for me. i installed right out in rich's side yard. i have had 0 starter issues since.

point is, i feel the "ford fix" gives the driver a false sense of security.

everybody knows about keeping the bat term clamps and posts clean. snip the end, say 1", off the +lead for the starter at the battery end, and peel back the insulation. more often than not, the strands are covered with corrosion.

k

You guys are missing the whole point of why I use them.

First off I'll say again, it won't fix a bad or on the way out starter.

The Bosch solenoid has to see a full 9 volts to engage, no 9 volts...no start.
The combination of 30+year old wiring, a bit of dirt in the solenoid and some heat means no 9 volts...no start.

The Ford solenoid only needs to see 3 volts then it shoots 12 volts right to the Bosch solenoid...it starts.

My 914 had the hot start issue when I got it, I've now got 4 trouble free years with it on it.

My '67 bug has had one since 1991, it had the hot start issue with a brand new Bosch starter. I installed a ford solenoid and never had an issue again. I sold this car last year, the owner had me install a new (beefed) tranny and a new starter. He said he didn't want that ford crap on "his" bug and told me it was bunk, take it off.
4 days later it came back on a flatbed, new owner was hopping and I just said "I told you to leave that ford crap on."
I reinstalled the exact same solenoid and it started right up. Issue solved.
Between my labour and the tow it must have cost him a couple of bills.

I've got quite a few running them on bugs and busses around here with a very good success rate.

I really don't care if some of you think it's bunk...do as you like...spend hours, days and weeks looking for a phantom problem. Buy a new starter…hack into your wiring and run a new one from the switch to the solenoid.
I'll install a $12 ford solenoid in a half hour and wave to you every time I pass your driveway...hell, I'll even help you push.

[BMITCHELL]

I replaced the ignition switch on the 73 which didn't heal the problem. Went and bought a cheap $13 ford relay and now it works great. Did the same on the 74 1.8 I had which had the same problem. Adding the relay solved that problem also.

[Mark Henry]

I hate drilling holes and cutting wires so I bend the bracket enlarge the hole a bit and mount it here on the bottom starter stud.

[jk76.914]

I've had the hot-start-due-to-sticking-solenoid on a '77 Chevy, an '88 Saab 9000, and my '76 914. And I take very good care of my cars. At least on the Chevy and the 914 I could reach in with a screw driver and short the bat cable to the ign switch lug on the solenoid and get them started.....

I drilled the hole and mounted it to the trunk floor. This installation has been here for over 20 years. It stayed in place when I dropped the engine and finally redid the body in 2002. Just disconnected the wires at the terminal strip. When the engine went back in, I just hooked em back up.

You can also see the AWG 1 cable from the battery, and the AWG 8 cable that is hard soldered inside the alternator.

[modpr2]

im going to put in the starter relay or solenoid. i dont think its a band-aid either. i think its brings improved technology and solution to a great car kinda like the subie guys. even if its a ford solenoid, im not too proud or snobish to have it in my 914. thanks for the help everyone.

[Mark Henry]

BTW if you use the Ford unit please be aware the bracket does need a good ground.

[Steve Thacker]

This thread should be in the classics. As I'm damn glad someone approached this vexing problem. However there is a good deal of us that automotive electrical wiring is our not our strong suit.

Case in point:
I bought one of those hard start relay kits off of ebay and it only has improved things slightly. It is more like a band-aid on a shotgun wound in my case, as the starter is on its last leg.

I'm going to go out and get a decent starter this time. None of the chin-shin wahfoo rebuilt crap for this boy ever again.

Mark I really like your homegrown method as it appears to do the do.
Do you have a simple crayon schematic of your setup? As I'm tired of having this issue and it is time to do it right. Just remember I'm a bonehead with automotive electrical stuff. If you could write it up easiy enough for a two year old to understand, I'll get it with flying colors. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Mark Henry]

Do you have a simple crayon schematic of your setup? As I'm tired of having this issue and it is time to do it right. Just remember I'm a bonehead with automotive electrical stuff. If you could write it up easiy enough for a two year old to understand, I'll get it with flying colors. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Page one of this thread.

The thin wire on the starter goes to the right hand small terminal on the solenoid.
Take a heavy gauge wire from the big post on the starter and run it through the big terminals on the ford solenoid and back to the small terminal on the starter.

[Mark Henry]

This thread should be in the classics.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)

This seems to come up more than once a year, every time the same things are said.

[Brett W]

Yes I was referring to the "ghetto-ness" that was on the car from the PO. Now if you look at all new cars they have relays that feed the starter circiut. It is a good idea, but most of the time the ones put on a 914 are put on there as a band-aid.

Now if we were to toss the factory harness and put a new harness with relays for every major circuit... Oh wait better stop new or I will have a new 914.

[Steve Thacker]

I need to read more slowly. I totally missed the crayon drawing.

Thanks Mark for not roasting me over the coals for my obvious brain fart.
The instructions look like a no brainer.

[Mark Henry]

Hey I have brain farts all the time....but most of the time it's just regular farts.

[anthony]

I have the bandaid Ford relay on my car. I've had the hot start problem happen 3X in 4 years. I guess I really need a starter. Anyway, I found this diagram a long time ago:

[eg914]

Is that diagram from the Idiot's Guide? I am too lazy to go find mine.
When I bought my car a couple of years ago I replaced the starter and still had trouble when hot (summer in Sacramento). I bought a bosch relay kit from the local VW shop, and have had no problems since. Seems good to not run all that current through the ignition switch.