Yet another car won't start thread. FIXED!, No click, no starter spin, nothing Options

[Jakeodoule]

76 2.0 stock FI
Lucky for me its in my garage. Last time I drove it, it was all smiles!
When I turn the key the FI charges and all lights seem normal.
I get no click from the starter and no spin.

Starter is less than 3000 miles old and was working fine. If I jump the terminals on the starter it spins.
I have a solid AGM battery, 13 volts to starter on big power line.
All fuses are good and wiring harness is totally stock and unmolested.
I get no power to the brown wire on the starter soleniod when the key is turned.
Is there a relay for this?
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/WTF.gif)

BTW I did do a search but most info is related to cranking but not starting.
Any ideas?

[Jakeodoule]

Changed the relay board and ignition switch. No Luck....
If I jump from the starter solenoid to power it starts and runs fine.

Checked the back of the fuse panel and nothing stands out as a problem. I think the ignition wiring skips the fuse panel anyway and goes straight to the relay board. Anyone know what pin that comes in on the relay board? As well as what pin it goes out to starter solenoid? Would like to test voltage in and out of relay board. maybe I have a broken wire.

The Sun has come out for the first time in 6 freak'n months and I can't drive my car! I have no idea WTF is causing this. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/headbang.gif)

[wingnut86]

ignition switch may be cracked (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

My last one was doing the hokey pokey and sending out smoke signals.

Replacing it with a new one fixed it's little problems.

I'll use the old switch for my Chevy Chase Christmas spectacular light show from now on...you never know what will happen when that switch is inserted into my Xmas from Hell light display...


(IMG:style_emoticons/default/santa_smiley.gif)

[Jakeodoule]

Changed the switch. Its not that.
Its also not the Relay board.

[Kirmizi]

Just for giggles have you checked the relay (seatbelt interlock) below the passenger seat?
Mike

[Cap'n Krusty]

There is no relay under the seat on a '76.

The Cap'n

[Kirmizi]

Doh! Thanks Cap'n. Learn something everyday on here. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
Mike

[Jakeodoule]

Yep there is a relay under the pass seat.
or was. Now its just a empty socket. Been that way since I've had it.
12 years
Going to bed now, mess with it more tomorrow

[mrgjones]

Wait, the starter solenoid IS the relay for the starter. Is there another relay to the solenoid? It's got to be fused. Check across all fuses for continuity with a multimeter. If you're not getting 12v to the brown wire with the key in the crank position there's your problem. That wire is supposed to engage the solenoid (fancy relay) to allow full battery power to the starter motor. Are you testing the wire with the key in Crank or just on? Try tapping on the terminal of the brown wire with a wrench until you get a spark. Then try to start the engine. If it cranks you know your starter solenoid is going bad. Learned that one on my first Porsche, a 924. If none of that works, curse my name to whatever Gods you pray to and go have a beer. If you wanted reliability you would've bought a Honda

[silver74insocal]

ignition switch may be cracked (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif) do you have a meter? if not, a test light? just cuz its new doesnt mean it works.... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

[Jakeodoule]

Yep I have a multimeter. I am a field Engineer in electronics....

I did ohm out the new switch after it did not fix the problem.
This is quite baffling. I understand how the starter works.

If I put 12 volts to the terminal on the starter solenoid the car starts and runs fine.

Its got to be a broken wire. I just don't know which pin that comes off the relay board. If I had that, I can check voltage there and ohm the wire from the switch to the board as well as from the relay board to the starter.

Anyone know where those come and go from the relay board?

[aircooledtechguy]

There is a Bosch starter relay kit P/N WR1 that fixes this mystery "no-click no nothing" thing in both VWs and Porsches. If you hit the key in the start position and you get nothing, but the dash lights dim slightly, you are having a power loss at the solenoid. This relay kit basically makes it so the current required to make the solenoid engage, does not have to go all the way forward to the key and all the way back to the solenoid. Resistance in the wires occurs with age (corrosion maybe?) and makes this problem intermittent at first; then you can't get it started at all. With the relay kit installed, you only have to have enough current to click the relay keeping all the current back at the starter. Viola!! No starting problems. I install a lot of these on the old cars I work on. Fixes this problem every time.

You can get/order one of these at any European car repair shop.

[Jakeodoule]

That is interesting Nate. Thanks!
The Dash lights do dim slightly when key is engaged.
However with the brown wire removed from the starter relay,Measuring on that wire while key is engaged I get no voltage. Nadda, nothing.

I still suspect broken or shorted wire. I will look at it more this evening.
Thanks for the help.

[Tom]

Jake,
First off, there should be a yellow wire to the starter solenoid, not brown. This comes from the 12 pin connector at the rear of the relay board. The yellow wire comes into the relay board at the front 14 pin connector. Check there with the voltmeter to see if you are getting voltage to the yellow wire and then find out why the yellow wire is going somewhere else. Sounds like a miswire sometime recently? Were you doing some work in that area since the car was put up for the winter?
Tom

[Jakeodoule]

Jake,
First off, there should be a yellow wire to the starter solenoid, not brown. This comes from the 12 pin connector at the rear of the relay board. The yellow wire comes into the relay board at the front 14 pin connector. Check there with the voltmeter to see if you are getting voltage to the yellow wire and then find out why the yellow wire is going somewhere else. Sounds like a miswire sometime recently? Were you doing some work in that area since the car was put up for the winter?
Tom

Nope, no work since last drove. (week ago).
I believe it is yellow on the relay board connector. I couldn't find a brown wire there thats why I needed pinout.
Brown on the starter more than likely due to oil/dirt/heat/age or bad light.
Thanks Tom. I'll check that.

[tradisrad]

yellow wire to the relay board is from the ignition switch (26)(relay board pin 1; 14 pin connector), yellow wire leaving the relay board goes to the starter (2)(relay board pin 6; 12 pin connector). The 14 pin connector is "keyed" and can only go on one way; the 12 pin connector can easily and accidentally be shifted a set of pins when reinstalling
.

[Jakeodoule]

yellow wire to the relay board is from the ignition switch (26)(relay board pin 1; 14 pin connector), yellow wire leaving the relay board goes to the starter (2)(relay board pin 6; 12 pin connector)

AWESOME! That is exactly what I needed!
I love this board!
Thanks!

[Jakeodoule]

Thanks to all for the assistance and to you Tradisrad for the diagram.

It was indeed a broken wire from the relay board to the starter relay.
right where is goes through the rear tin on the engine.
It makes a tight turn there and It just broke internally.
After ohm-ing the wire it showed open and then I wiggled it and bingo!
So I cut it open and soldered it back up and I am running again.
Thanks fella's! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/piratenanner.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/driving.gif)

[VaccaRabite]

So I cut it open and soldered it back up and I am running...

You are an engineer and know way more then me about this stuff, but I thought soldering stranded wire in a vibration environment was bad ju-ju.

Not that I haven't done it, but I've been told it was bad.

Zach

[Jakeodoule]

There is differing opinions on that subject to be sure.

However I personally have had way more trouble with those crimp connectors after use and age than I have with connections that are soldered properly.
If you clean the wire, use a high grade solder, Solder it correctly and use heat shrink it will hold.
I would not solder ends that flex constantly. But this is in the middle and I make a good solid connection with the wire first and then solder them. I do not rely on the solder for the connection.

I would suggest you use whatever method works best for you.

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