911 for 914 Brakes Question Options

[patssle]

I can't find an answer to this...is it at all possible to put 911 brakes onto the 914 while maintaining the 4 lugs? Or must everything be swapped out?

I like my Mahles and would prefer not to have to replace them.

And while we're on it, another brakes question. I read a couple posts where people just changed out the front brakes and left the rear original - to keep the e-brake. Any opinions on having 2 different brakes front and rear?

[Mike Bellis]

BMW 320i brakes should bolt right on the front and is an upgrade. If you have Eric Shea restore your 914 brakes they will be great. No need for upgrades. If you have massive horespower, you need a brake upgrade. If not keep your 914 brakes. You might want to upgrade the master cylinder to a 19mm unit from a 911. Direct bolt on.

[Mueller]

not sure who sells them right now, but search for "billet hubs" , new 7075T6 (original ones, reproduction unit might be 6061T6) hubs that allow you to use 911 vented rotors along with 911 calipers.

[Bleyseng]

Yes, the billet hubs adapt the 914 front hubs to a 911 disc and you can use whatever calipers that have a 3" bolt pattern onto the strut. Or with a adapter larger dual piston units like big reds. This retains the 4 bolt pattern for a stock look but much improved braking. Going to 320 calipers is a slight improvement but correctly rebuilt stock brakes with excellent pads is fine.

[patssle]

My brakes were re-done (front bearings, discs, calipers(rebuilt by eric), new pads, new softlines) under the PO and the master cylinder was upgraded to the 19mm - however my brakes are still lackluster. I feel the hard-lines might need to be replaced as there is no record of this happening under POs. That is my plan to do in the fall if they need it.

I will be putting a Porsche 3.0L into my car. Is it still ok to keep with the original brakes with that? Street use only, no track.

Found the billet hubs...thanks!

http://www.bradrobertsag.com/product/4-LUG...ings-seals.html

[JRust]

I will be putting a Porsche 3.0L into my car. Is it still ok to keep with the original brakes with that? Street use only, no track.

If your unhappy with your stock brakes after all that was done. I would plan on replacing the fronts. With the six you are just adding a bit of weight to your car. I would upgrade the front's & leave the rears stock. The BMW calipers are really a nice upgrade. Probably take the lease amount of changing for you as everything else stays the same. If you go the Billet route it is an improvement but will run you alot more $$$$

[Bleyseng]

with a 180hp six even 320 BMW calipers are too weak for street driving...go the billet hub route and install larger Porsche calipers to get the braking in front you need. 180hp will make the 2000lb 914 very quick and you want to be able to stop it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Eric_Shea]

The vented rotor hubs will allow you to bolt on a M-Caliper but the pad size is the same as the 914 and, I'm concerned about rotor clearance with the 914 mounting ears. There's a few here using them but, it's very close from what I hear. I'd like 2mm clearance to accomodate thermal expansion of the rotor.

with a 180hp six even 320 BMW calipers are too weak for street driving...go the billet hub route and install larger Porsche calipers to get the braking in front you need

Odd... because the BMW calipers have the same size pistons and a much larger pad than the Porsche calipers you recommend (only M-Calipers will fit on the stock strut with the 3" spacing). So, you'd actually be installing a smaller Porsche caliper. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

I would upgrade the front's & leave the rears stock. The BMW calipers are really a nice upgrade.

Well... I almost give-up on this one. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/headbang.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/huh.gif)

As mentioned above, the BMW calipers have the much larger pad but still reside on a 914 solid rotor (el Warpo de Rotoro and change rotors and bearings etc. all at once). You'd be matching a pad and piston size similar to a 911 A-Caliper or S-Caliper with the small #30 pad and 33mm pistons of the rear. For me this kinda gets filed under "How to mess up your 914 brake bias 101". You can do it and report back like the other guy herein about your fronts locking up and nothing in the rear.

my brakes are still lackluster

What pads did you use? How many miles on the system since the new calipers? Why would you need new hardlines (if they're not leaking they will have no affect on your pedal performance)? Did you mean softlines? What was your bedding procedure? Did you set the venting clearance properly in the rear? And finally... what are you comparing it to?

Great pads are a must for great performance from a 914. Countless teeners get lured into "dust free, noise free" pads but, they fail to read the fine print "stop free". Need I say countless teeners get lured into CHEAP pads? There are $25 pads and there are $100 pads. Then there are Porterfields that stop like $100 pads for $59.00. If you're using great pads did you bed them properly?

New seals in new calipers need to be broken in before your pedal returns to a hard position. Bedding the pads will help with this process. This issue is outlined in the 914 factory manual under brakes. The new seals will generally pull the pistons back further than the ideal gap. This will allow additional pedal travel until the seals break in.

New rubber lines can help if needed.

Once you lock up your tires your brakes have done thier job. 914 calipers can still lock up any tread you can stick under a narrow 914. There are VERY fast race cars running stock 914 brakes and doing very well with them.

Are they big power brakes? No... they're awesome disc brakes from the early 70's. If I got out of the Cayenne and jumped in the 914 I might think things are lackluster but, if I jumped out of the 71 911 into the 74 914... things are more apples to apples. That's why I asked the comparison question. It happens often when "Mommy" who is use to carting the kids around in the Land Rover gets in "Daddy's" 914 and swears she'll never drive it again. Daddy goes out looking for a brake solution... "my wife hates my 914." Common.

Hope that helps.

[PeeGreen 914]

The vented rotor hubs will allow you to bolt on a M-Caliper but the pad size is the same as the 914 and, I'm concerned about rotor clearance with the 914 mounting ears. There's a few here using them but, it's very close from what I hear. I'd like 2mm clearance to accomodate thermal expansion of the rotor.

with a 180hp six even 320 BMW calipers are too weak for street driving...go the billet hub route and install larger Porsche calipers to get the braking in front you need

Odd... because the BMW calipers have the same size pistons and a much larger pad than the Porsche calipers you recommend (only M-Calipers will fit on the stock strut with the 3" spacing). So, you'd actually be installing a smaller Porsche caliper. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

I would upgrade the front's & leave the rears stock. The BMW calipers are really a nice upgrade.

Well... I almost give-up on this one. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/headbang.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/huh.gif)

As mentioned above, the BMW calipers have the much larger pad but still reside on a 914 solid rotor (el Warpo de Rotoro and change rotors and bearings etc. all at once). You'd be matching a pad and piston size similar to a 911 A-Caliper or S-Caliper with the small #30 pad and 33mm pistons of the rear. For me this kinda gets filed under "How to mess up your 914 brake bias 101". You can do it and report back like the other guy herein about your fronts locking up and nothing in the rear.

my brakes are still lackluster

What pads did you use? How many miles on the system since the new calipers? Why would you need new hardlines (if they're not leaking they will have no affect on your pedal performance)? Did you mean softlines? What was your bedding procedure? Did you set the venting clearance properly in the rear? And finally... what are you comparing it to?

Great pads are a must for great performance from a 914. Countless teeners get lured into "dust free, noise free" pads but, they fail to read the fine print "stop free". Need I say countless teeners get lured into CHEAP pads? There are $25 pads and there are $100 pads. Then there are Porterfields that stop like $100 pads for $59.00. If you're using great pads did you bed them properly?

New seals in new calipers need to be broken in before your pedal returns to a hard position. Bedding the pads will help with this process. This issue is outlined in the 914 factory manual under brakes. The new seals will generally pull the pistons back further than the ideal gap. This will allow additional pedal travel until the seals break in.

New rubber lines can help if needed.

Once you lock up your tires your brakes have done thier job. 914 calipers can still lock up any tread you can stick under a narrow 914. There are VERY fast race cars running stock 914 brakes and doing very well with them.

Are they big power brakes? No... they're awesome disc brakes from the early 70's. If I got out of the Cayenne and jumped in the 914 I might think things are lackluster but, if I jumped out of the 71 911 into the 74 914... things are more apples to apples. That's why I asked the comparison question. It happens often when "Mommy" who is use to carting the kids around in the Land Rover gets in "Daddy's" 914 and swears she'll never drive it again. Daddy goes out looking for a brake solution... "my wife hates my 914." Common.

Hope that helps.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif) Stock 914 brakes can be amazing with the different types of pads out there these days. I had all the 911 goodies on my 914 and was still always amazed at one of our local autocrossers brakes that were el stocko with Portfield pads. The biggest issue is heat dispersement.

[patssle]

What pads did you use? How many miles on the system since the new calipers? Why would you need new hardlines (if they're not leaking they will have no affect on your pedal performance)? Did you mean softlines? What was your bedding procedure? Did you set the venting clearance properly in the rear? And finally... what are you comparing it to?

Previous owner did the pads - I haven't taken the system apart yet so not sure which ones. I did some adjustments, but no luck. My brakes cannot be locked up, and the pedal is hard to press. I question the steel hardlines because I have read they can rust and clog up. Softlines were replaced by PO. I plan on bleeding the system to test this theory. The rebuilt brakes have probably a thousand or two miles on them.

If stock 914 brakes are more than enough for the 3.0L, then by all means I'll stick with them - once I figure out the issue. I just see people saying to upgrade them if you're adding weight and power to the car.

[PeeGreen 914]

What pads did you use? How many miles on the system since the new calipers? Why would you need new hardlines (if they're not leaking they will have no affect on your pedal performance)? Did you mean softlines? What was your bedding procedure? Did you set the venting clearance properly in the rear? And finally... what are you comparing it to?

Previous owner did the pads - I haven't taken the system apart yet so not sure which ones. I did some adjustments, but no luck. My brakes cannot be locked up. I question the steel hardlines because I have read they can rust and clog up. Softlines were replaced by PO. I plan on bleeding the system to test this theory. The rebuilt brakes have probably a thousand or two miles on them.

If stock 914 brakes are more than enough for the 3.0L, then by all means I'll stick with them - once I figure out the issue. I just see people saying to upgrade them if you're adding weight and power to the car.

If you can't lock them up something is not right.

[Bleyseng]

The vented rotor hubs will allow you to bolt on a M-Caliper but the pad size is the same as the 914 and, I'm concerned about rotor clearance with the 914 mounting ears. There's a few here using them but, it's very close from what I hear. I'd like 2mm clearance to accomodate thermal expansion of the rotor.

with a 180hp six even 320 BMW calipers are too weak for street driving...go the billet hub route and install larger Porsche calipers to get the braking in front you need

Odd... because the BMW calipers have the same size pistons and a much larger pad than the Porsche calipers you recommend (only M-Calipers will fit on the stock strut with the 3" spacing). So, you'd actually be installing a smaller Porsche caliper. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Hope that helps.

Eric, I don't really like the BMW 320 switch, tried and it gets you not much other than more pad size. Keeping the brakes balanced is a idea...could be this poster has air still in the system as its hard to bleed correctly. I kept my 914 a narrow body but went to 73 1/3 911 struts so I could have vented rotors after tracking my car and having brake fade...even AXing to two drivers in the same run group I experienced that.

[Eric_Shea]

I should have answered your question. My bad.

If I were to work within the parameters you've discussed (3.0, Narrow Body and Retain the 4-lug), here's what I would do:

Master Hydraulics: Retain the 19mm Master Cylinder. All new soft lines. Compressed air through the hardlines.

Front Wheel and Hydraulics: Club Hubs, Vented Rotors (maybe mill the edges), Brembo Calipers. (same as the BMW calipers but "much" lighter and work with the Vented Rotor. Porterfield R4S Pads.

Rear Wheel and Hydraulics: Ferrari 308GT Calipers, Bleeder Modification. Retains all stock handbrake functionality. 38mm piston. Larger pad. Porterfield R4S Pads.

Hope that helps.

[patssle]

I should have answered your question. My bad.

If I were to work within the parameters you've discussed (3.0, Narrow Body and Retain the 4-lug), here's what I would do:

Master Hydraulics: Retain the 19mm Master Cylinder. All new soft lines. Compressed air through the hardlines.

Front Wheel and Hydraulics: Club Hubs, Vented Rotors (maybe mill the edges), Brembo Calipers. (same as the BMW calipers but "much" lighter and work with the Vented Rotor. Porterfield R4S Pads.

Rear Wheel and Hydraulics: Ferrari 308GT Calipers, Bleeder Modification. Retains all stock handbrake functionality. 38mm piston. Larger pad. Porterfield R4S Pads.

Hope that helps.

But you would also suggest sticking with the 914 brakes (once properly set) as they provide more than enough stopping power even with a 3.0L?

Which I would rather do than spend money, and seems to be the way I'll go.

[qa1142]

Eric

What are "Club Hubs" Who makes them?

[Eric_Shea]

But you would also suggest sticking with the 914 brakes (once properly set) as they provide more than enough stopping power even with a 3.0L?

That really depends on the driving style. Jon is right (above re: heat), if you're installing a 3.0 I doubt you're doing it to putter around town. If you get overly agressive with it, you may experience fade issues. You will be asking your 914 to stop from faster speeds in shorter periods of time. E.G.: Your speed at 100 yards with a 3.0 will potentially be a great deal faster than with a 1.7, you will get to the brake threshold sooner yet you'll still want to slow to the speed that your tires are capable of handling the upcoming corner at. Be it autocross or twisties, your engine choice can determine what the best brake set-up is. With multipe stops from higher speeds in shorter time spans, the solid rotors can have an issue with heat dissipation and that can lead to fade.

***BRAKE FADE IS EXTREMELY RARE IN A 914 WITH STOCK BRAKES*** Overly agressive driving or a heavy "Middle" pedal may cuase the symptoms. There are professional 914 drivers here who will tell you, if you're getting fade in a 914, you're on the brakes too much.

I'd rationalize it all and say. If you're just driving around town, you'll probably be fine. If you're going to autocross it or hit the mountain grades hard, I'd go with the set-up I mentioned.

What are "Club Hubs" Who makes them?

That is a term I used for the hubs that Brad was selling on 914club when it was alive. I believe Mike Mueller engineered them at the urging of Brad. Another machinest (Mark... nice guy) took on the task and was selling them recently. Cone Dodger and a few others have them on their cars and will probably weigh in. They allow you to use 911 M-Calipers (or Brembo Calipers) on a 914 Strut with a 911 vented rotor.

I think they're an interesting idea for those who want to keep their 4-lug wheels. The few problems I've seen with them are:

1. Price - A set cost as much as a 911 front end... loaded.
2. With the price issue, it seemed odd to have a hub still using the smaller 914 spindle but... that's what it was designed to do... no other way around it. That's really picking nits because I don't recall seeing any 914 spindle failures (and I have seen some saggy 911 spindles over the years).
3. I stated it earlier, I think the M-Caliper mounted on a 914 ear may come a bit too close to the edge of a 911 vented rotor for my comfort on this set up. That can be resolved (if it's really an issue) by milling the edge of the rotor a tad.

[PeeGreen 914]

Where to find this Mike Mueller or Mark (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

I would love to find some info from these guys if they are around (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[patssle]

Thanks Eric, great info and I appreciate it!

Since you mentioned the pads, in my searching I saw you recommended R4-S for street use in a post a couple years ago. Are they still your recommendation for street use?

[jmill]

Rear Wheel and Hydraulics: Ferrari 308GT Calipers, Bleeder Modification. Retains all stock handbrake functionality. 38mm piston. Larger pad. Porterfield R4S Pads.

This one is a new one for me, Eric. Would you recommend this for a car running A calipers up front?

[Eric_Shea]

Street and Autocross (and most DE events) These pads are low noise low dust Kevlar and they do not need the warm up time a Road Course pad needs.

Dedicated Road Course Car - R4
Street Autocross Occasional DE - R4S