Djet - No start, Where to next Options

[slu234]

This is my barn car that has been sitting for 30 years. It is a 1970 1.7L stock D-jet FI. I pulled the engine and also the FI wiring harness to freshen up some sheathing and a few terminals. Here's the list of FI and ignition repairs/replacements done. Engine back in last month and still sorting a few things out...

The engine did run (rather poorly though) before all of the following.

-New plugs, wires, points, condenser, rotor and cap.
-New blue coil
-New fuel pump and hoses
-Added fuel pressure gauge in line.
-Fuel pressure at 30psi - jumpered fuel pump at relay to set
-New vacuum hoses
-Verified all ECU connections using Bowlsby's checklist on his site (although had no help to verify both trigger points operation while cranking - not cranking, had one side open and one side closed)
-Fuel injectors were sent out about a year ago for cleaning - were put back in and run but have been sitting since then (possibly clogged??)
-New vacuum advance/retard canister
-Static timing done and points gap set for initial start up.


The engine will turn over easily by the starter and will run for a short burst on starting fluid. I do not hear the "brrrrrrr" or "clicks" of the FI's clicking as the throttle is opened (i did verify that the TPS is connected and working while going over Bowlsby's checklist).

Are my FI's stuck or clogged, ECU dead, what else?? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/headbang.gif)

Where next?

I am so close to getting this thing on the road after about 2 years of sorting things out. I would greatly appreciate any direction.

Thanks guys!

Brian

[jasons]

Have you tried starting it with the fuel pump relay jumpered?

[detoxcowboy]

I would check your actually getting fuel to the injectors first (be carefull), you say it starts and runs with starter fluid.. raise the static timming a tad.. hold the pedal down when your starting it.. then of course check spark but you say it will run so.. cht connected properly?

Trouble shooting
Preliminary checks
Prior to trouble shooting the fuel injection system, check the following items:
l Battery condition.
l All electrical connections.
l Hoses or mating surfaces for vacuum leakage.
l Fuel lines for leakage.
l Ignition system.
l Idle speed and mixture.

Trouble shooting;

Engine Will Not Start, Fuel Pump Inoperative

Check the following: Defective fuse, fuel pump. fuel pump relay, main relay or electrical
circuit. Fuel pump relay should click when ignition is switched on and off. Should have
voltage from main relay terminal No. 87 to fuel pump relay terminal No. 86. Fuel pump relay
terminal No. 85 should have good ground from ECU.
NOTE: Fuel pump operates approximately ½ to 1 second after switching ignition on.
Relay is grounded from ECU. Ensure fuel pump operates during cranking.


Engine Will Not Start, Fuel Pump Operates

Check the following: Defective wire to starter terminal No. 50, Manifold Pressure Control
(MPC) sensor and/or wiring, temperature sensors and/or wiring. Inadequate pressure in main
fuel system, wire connector for distributor contacts disconnected and/or open circuit. Pressure
should be 28 psi (2.0 kg/cm2) with starter operating.

d-jetronic go through procedure..

http://www.rennlist.com/techarticles/djetronicfuel.htm

trouble shoot pdf.....

http://www.agua.nu/ds-files/tony-jackson/g...bleshooting.pdf

and a touch more, it sounds like your very close with just 1 issue.. re-post again with more info on further attempts..

#1 All Porsche 914 Throttle Position Switches (TPS) have only 4 electrical wires, but later cars had 5 pole wire terminal connector housings with one blank pole. A 4 pole TPS wire terminal connector housing can be installed into a 5 pole TPS, the wires are in the same order, just locate it correctly.

#2 Wire terminal connector housings are either indexed so they cannot be installed wrong (polarized), or it does not matter how they are oriented as long as they can be inserted into the FI component (non-polarized).

#3 Wire terminal removal from the wire terminal housings takes special tools and knowledge to avoid destroying the wire terminal. Trying to remove them, you'll only be lucky half the time, mostly the wire terminal locking lances break, making the electrical reconnection impossible or untrustworthy.

#4 TS=Thermo switch (1 pole), TTS=Thermo-time switch (2 pole), CSV=Cold Start Valve
Wiring for the CSV and TS/TTS is within the FI harness, but is controlled by the regulator plate, not by the ECU (Engine Control Unit).

#5 The CHT sensor (TS2), if disconnected or an open circuit, will not allow the car the start.

[Jeffs9146]

Fuel pump!

[hot_shoe914]

If the fuel pump is working go for the relays. I had the same problem and it turned out to be arelay.

[slu234]

I would check your actually getting fuel to the injectors first (be carefull), you say it starts and runs with starter fluid.. raise the static timming a tad.. hold the pedal down when your starting it.. then of course check spark but you say it will run so.. cht connected properly?

Trouble shooting
Preliminary checks
Prior to trouble shooting the fuel injection system, check the following items:
l Battery condition.
l All electrical connections.
l Hoses or mating surfaces for vacuum leakage.
l Fuel lines for leakage.
l Ignition system.
l Idle speed and mixture.

Trouble shooting;

Engine Will Not Start, Fuel Pump Inoperative

Check the following: Defective fuse, fuel pump. fuel pump relay, main relay or electrical
circuit. Fuel pump relay should click when ignition is switched on and off. Should have
voltage from main relay terminal No. 87 to fuel pump relay terminal No. 86. Fuel pump relay
terminal No. 85 should have good ground from ECU.
NOTE: Fuel pump operates approximately ½ to 1 second after switching ignition on.
Relay is grounded from ECU. Ensure fuel pump operates during cranking.


Engine Will Not Start, Fuel Pump Operates

Check the following: Defective wire to starter terminal No. 50, Manifold Pressure Control
(MPC) sensor and/or wiring, temperature sensors and/or wiring. Inadequate pressure in main
fuel system, wire connector for distributor contacts disconnected and/or open circuit. Pressure
should be 28 psi (2.0 kg/cm2) with starter operating.

d-jetronic go through procedure..

http://www.rennlist.com/techarticles/djetronicfuel.htm

trouble shoot pdf.....

http://www.agua.nu/ds-files/tony-jackson/g...bleshooting.pdf

and a touch more, it sounds like your very close with just 1 issue.. re-post again with more info on further attempts..

#1 All Porsche 914 Throttle Position Switches (TPS) have only 4 electrical wires, but later cars had 5 pole wire terminal connector housings with one blank pole. A 4 pole TPS wire terminal connector housing can be installed into a 5 pole TPS, the wires are in the same order, just locate it correctly.

#2 Wire terminal connector housings are either indexed so they cannot be installed wrong (polarized), or it does not matter how they are oriented as long as they can be inserted into the FI component (non-polarized).

#3 Wire terminal removal from the wire terminal housings takes special tools and knowledge to avoid destroying the wire terminal. Trying to remove them, you'll only be lucky half the time, mostly the wire terminal locking lances break, making the electrical reconnection impossible or untrustworthy.

#4 TS=Thermo switch (1 pole), TTS=Thermo-time switch (2 pole), CSV=Cold Start Valve
Wiring for the CSV and TS/TTS is within the FI harness, but is controlled by the regulator plate, not by the ECU (Engine Control Unit).

#5 The CHT sensor (TS2), if disconnected or an open circuit, will not allow the car the start.

All good stuff....Thanks!

I should be able to get back to the car in the next day or so..


- the fuel pump does run for 1-2 seconds when the key is turned.
-Fuel pressure does rise when the pump runs for the 1-2 seconds (30psi)
-FI harness has been verified 2 to 3 times terminal to terminal with meter on the bench and on the engine
- have verified that the TPS is wired correctly - seeing open/close circuit pulses through throttle movement - by using meter attached at ECU plug terminals
- have verified CHT, and TS from ECU plug terminals

I'll pick up the few remaining checks you have listed and will get back with my results.

Will probably need to pull the injectors and crank to see if they are in fact pulsing fuel. It puzzles me that I do not hear the enrichment injector pulses when I open the throttle, especially when everything else is checking out on the wiring.

I'll go over it again.....

Thanks for your help - detailed and much appreciated.

Regards,
Brian

[swl]

Will probably need to pull the injectors and crank to see if they are in fact pulsing fuel. It puzzles me that I do not hear the enrichment injector pulses when I open the throttle, especially when everything else is checking out on the wiring.

That puzzles me as well. If I remember correctly the only thing that gets involved in the enrichment pulse is the ECU and the MPS. It really screams of a broken wire to the MPS but you've gone over it a couple of times. If you find the injectors aren't firing (noid light?) maybe one last check with the harness installed. Measure the two ccts to the MPS at the ECU plug. 7/15 should be around 90 ohms and 8/10 350 ohms.

[type47]

When you re-installed the motor, did you connect the fuel lines correctly? (inlet hose-outlet hose)...
Nice to know another VA 914...

[brant]

When you re-installed the motor, did you connect the fuel lines correctly? (inlet hose-outlet hose)...
Nice to know another VA 914...

ditto..
I once switched the 2 lines when installing an engine and couldn't figure out what was wrong until my friend Kevin switched them back (and it started right up)

[detoxcowboy]

Quote"Will probably need to pull the injectors and crank to see if they are in fact pulsing fuel. It puzzles me that I do not hear the enrichment injector pulses when I open the throttle, especially when everything else is checking out on the wiring."unQuote

You can put then in jars to see how much as well, and remember spark plus open fuel = danger.. be cautious; And for me I never hear the injectors unless someone else turns the key while I have my head in the engine with not ta lot of ambient noise..


Quote"When you re-installed the motor, did you connect the fuel lines correctly? (inlet hose-outlet hose)...
Nice to know another VA 914..."unQuote

Excellent point!!, I hate to admit it but that one got me!! I tried everything else first only to find that I had un-crossed the fuel lines (where the factory fuel pump location was) when I re-installed my engine thus cause the fuel to run wrong way in the engine compartment, no start.. doof!! Check your routing..

This pic is for the 2.0 but you should get the idea...

[r_towle]

When you re-installed the motor, did you connect the fuel lines correctly? (inlet hose-outlet hose)...
Nice to know another VA 914...

ditto..
I once switched the 2 lines when installing an engine and couldn't figure out what was wrong until my friend Kevin switched them back (and it started right up)

Double ditto
First thing three of us thought of....go check it.
Just flip them around...cant hurt at this point.
For testing purposes, hotwire the fuel pump direct so it run all the time...
It only shuts off to enable the starter to draw all the power it needs...then it runs all the time.
Wire it up to run all the time for the moment...
If you look in the classics forum there is a very well documented thread by SirAndy of how to do this at the relay board with a simple jumper....its for a carbbed pump, but the same electrical hack will work here.

Rich

[Cap'n Krusty]

Wait a minute, guys. He has fuel pressure. That means the pump and hoses are installed correctly. Gotta read the whole thing .........................

The Cap'n

[slu234]

Wait a minute, guys. He has fuel pressure. That means the pump and hoses are installed correctly. Gotta read the whole thing .........................

The Cap'n

Thanks Cap'n. I really tried to detail it out.

I'm looking into buying/making a noid light to verify injectors are firing electrically they may be "firing" but are clogged again and not delivering fuel. The noid light would probably tell me this.

If I just remove the injectors and look for spray - it still won't tell me if it is electrical or clogged injectors.

Sounds like the noid light is the way to go.

Is it as simple as plugging in a 12V LED?

Brian

[slu234]

Was not able to find a noid light locally. I know LED's are diodes so polarity must be correct.

Does anyone know if I need to add a resistor?

Two LED's wired in parallel with opposite polarity should eliminate the question of polarity when plugging it in. One of the two would be at the correct polarity so one of them would fire if the voltage was there.

Thoughts??

[Cap'n Krusty]

HF sells noid lights. Gotta buy a set, but they're really cheap.

The Cap'n

[jasons]

Wait a minute, guys. He has fuel pressure. That means the pump and hoses are installed correctly. Gotta read the whole thing .........................

The Cap'n

From what I've read, he has fuel pressure when the relay is jumpered. Do you have fuel pressure with the relay plugged in, while cranking the motor?

Thats why I asked if you tried to start it with the relay jumpered.

If you have fuel pressure while cranking, or it doesn't fire with the fuel pump relay jumpered, start looking at the injectors and their trigger circuit.

[jk76.914]

trigger points in distributor?

[underthetire]

Sounds like yor fuel pump is ok, since you have pressure. You can pull the trigger points or the whole dizzy and spind it manually to see if the fuel pump come on. That will tell you if the points are working. I could see two injectors not firing but all four clogged sounds iffy. Check the grounds on the case one more time.

[sfrenck]

I'll throw in the good old "timing is off". Had similar issues when getting mine fired up for the first time after going from carb back to FI (even had the "it started with starter fluid" symptom). Everything tested out fine - just had to keep playing with the distributor until it fired right up. Kinda hard for one person to do (end up flooding the engine) - very easy to check with two people (one turns the key, the other turns the distributor until it starts).

[Cap'n Krusty]

Wait a minute, guys. He has fuel pressure. That means the pump and hoses are installed correctly. Gotta read the whole thing .........................

The Cap'n

From what I've read, he has fuel pressure when the relay is jumpered. Do you have fuel pressure with the relay plugged in, while cranking the motor?

Thats why I asked if you tried to start it with the relay jumpered.

If you have fuel pressure while cranking, or it doesn't fire with the fuel pump relay jumpered, start looking at the injectors and their trigger circuit.

Careful reading of the thread reveals this comment: "- the fuel pump does run for 1-2 seconds when the key is turned." I read that as the fuel pump, AND the relays work.

The Cap'n