GT's & Sixers - how & where constructed? - updated, 914/6-GT m471 originality Options

[larryM]

Original Question(s):

I am curious about how the standard sixes and the GT cars were actually constructed "at the factory"

if there is a current thread anywhere on this, or a good book, especially production line pictures, please point me there ANSWERS _ (see below)

How many GT & 471 cars actually built?

Sept 1993 article in Panorama by Dale Miller: PCA Historic Race Cars Chmn - "... the 914/6 GT numbers were never released" - (regarding homologation which required 500 production cars)

a Porsche telex nr. 716 dated Jun 30, 1971 lists serial numbers of 34 "... porsche 914/6 gt completely produced and delivered ex-factory" plus 14 "...produced for factory use (rally works team, experimental, demonstrates) " and further says "... thus we have a total number of 48 complete cars 914/6 gt produced in our factory, plus a total number of 400 conversion kits for existing 914/6 models ... we have no record on chassis numbers of cars on which these kits have been fitted."

How "bare" was the 914 shell when it arrived for GT or normal six assembly ? and was it in primer or ?? bare steel, ("in white", as they say?)

ANSWER - [all 914 Came from Karman painted and trimmed - but apparently Sixer body shells were not "trimmed"

What other welded-in things were added once the 914/6 shell entered production ("assembly line" is clearly a misnomer in the case of the sixes) ? Unknown

at what point were the serial numbers stamped into each shell and trunk, Unknown

(and similarly, what about the under-dash serial numbers, which clearly had to be done before the dash-cowl was welded into place?) - unknown

it seems that the GT & 471 bodies would've had to be pulled off before that point and sent directly for all special construction - and that they were in bare steel, else much of the welding of flares and reinforcing would have been a challenge since all the paint & undercoat primers would have had to be removed

- - did the Sixer and GT body shells come separately and directly from the body plant, in what state of manufacture, or were they pulled from the existing inventory waiting to enter Karmann Osnibruck production? REFERENCE books below

One opinion - - "painted and trimmed body shells were pulled out of the inventory as delivered from Karman and sent to Werks 1 for conversion as necessary" - that is at odds with info from the books cited below - they may not have been "trimmed" - whatever that actually meant

where were the sixes and GT's actually built, and by whom? Must have been a separate shop floor or building for that ?? ANSWER - Zuffenhausen - Werks 1 (for the GTs, unknown for sixes) ( the 1972 model sixes were assembled at Osnibruck on chassis fitted with 914-4 steering columns)

Where did their engines come from? from the 911 engine works. - photos of the 911 engine shop are in the links below - the engines were essentially hand built by individual technicians - not on robotic lines - much like WWII aircraft engines were built

were the few 916's also done at Werks 1 & by same people as the GT's? Unknown

etc etc

Does anyone know any of the people involved who can be interviewsd for memories, or of anyone who actually visited and viewed any of these processes in the period?

TIA.

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Updated Resarch as follows, as of 06 Mar 2012
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- we should note That various offiical Porsche publications routinely intermix the designation 914/6 and 914-6 often in the same document

- ( CAVEAT - it is never clear when citations in books & magazines, and ultimately found i internet posts, are circular - i.e. - one person loosely quotes what another wrote without attribution) (" i heard..." - or " I read somewhere...")

- a post in this thread, below, shows 2 pics of a GT or 471 car in Werks1 - courtesy Bowlsby's site

- another recent World post linked to 9 Magazine shows period plant photos Factory pictures - also found at Retronaut Porsche pics 1972

a Pelican crosspost by SirAndy says
"Chassis ID and VIN differ between the /4 cars and the /6 cars so it's safe to say the /6 cars were stamped at Porsche. If you look closely, the font of the /6 numbers is different that their /4 counterpart up until mid '72 ..." http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-914...6-assembly.html

another Pelican thread 814/6 as bare shells

there is a long thread over at the Early S Registry 914/6 collectibility

Three books are relevant

Reef & Mastenbroek "Caught By Camera - Porsche 914 " (Euroboek 1991)
Bret Johnson's "... Restorers Guide .... " (1989 Beeman)
Brian Long's "Porsche 914 914-6" (1987 Veloce)

( I have all three books, plus several compilations of collected magazine reviews & tests including the R&T and 2 Brooklands works)

(I have read in the past few yrs of two other "one-off" GT's, both racers, built in the early 1980's, also by "factory insider mechanics" in stuttgart, from factory parts bins. I've never been able to track down those owners )

side note - VIN numbers - I have had 2 euro (914-6's - neither of them had a VIN tag in the windshield - that tag was purely a USA import requirement - as were the decal tags found in USA door jambs -


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Long writes:
- "... 914 bodies were only supplied by Karmann fullypainted and trimmed..."

- "... there was a competition version available - the 914/6 GT, homologated in March 1970 .."

- " 914/6 total production amounted to just 3318 units..."

- Chapter Five - Motorsport " The 914/6 GT ... was nothing more than a standard 914/6 fitted with the optional R-package"

- " in addition to the works vehicles (12), a large number of cars were converted to GT specifications for customers, either by the factory or by privateers from Porsche supplied parts.

((download R parts list at link below))

- " the 914/6 GT came in three versions: a customer car for competition/fast roadwork, a track racer developing 220bhp, and a rally model with around 160bhp at the wheels." ... " a 100 litre fuel tank was added on the racer..."

- "The 1971 Monte Carlo rallye - "the works never used the model for rallying afterwards .. it seems the rear suspension was not up to the job ... "

_ "in May 1971, Porsche launched the M471 body/wheel package which gave 914/6 owners the chance to own a lookalike to use on the road."


Reef & Mastenbroek write

" All 914 chassis bodies were manufactured by Karmann in Osnabruck. Four Cylinder 914s were completely assembled by Karmann. "

"The bodies for the six cylinder models were sent for completion by Porsche in Zuffenhausen."

"... the 914/6 GT is a myth for lovers and connoisseurs of the 914. Even the name is slightly controversial - Porsche officially sold the car as a 914/6. However the 914/6 fitted with the 914R option package soon became known as the 914/6 GT. "

" the first oficial race apperance was made during the 1970 Marathon de le Route at the Nurburgring (an 86 hr enduro)"

" the first official rally appearance was on the 1970 RAC rally.

Brett Johnson writes:

- "While there was only one body style, a number of engine types combined with varying trim combinations make restoration of the 914 or 914/6 a bit confusing"

AMEN!

- ".... what was and was not, a GT, is complicated by the fact that no specific run of chassis numbers (as with the 916) identifies them."

- "In theory, any 914/6 could be made into a GT with parts that the factory was happy to supply."

- "Wheels came in different combinations depending on need, but generally were Fuchs forged alloys. The normal mix was 6s in front with 7s in the rear, or 7s in front and 8's in rear."

- "916 - 1972: Both 2.4 and 2.7 engines were used...Wheels were Fuchs 7x15s all around"

- "M471 Option Package: - Available beginning May 1971 - steel fender flares, flared steel front valence, flared fiberglass rocker panels, no rear valence." "Wheels were 6x15 Fuchs all around. (some say 7x15) Longer wheel studs were also used along with spacers."


- - (the " R" Competition Parts list can be downloaded here Competition Parts List - -

Research Continues - - keep tuned

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9140430919 was what would have been termed a "customer car" constructed from ground-up on a fresh body shell. It was fitted during construction with all the competition GT parts and improvements as noted in the 914-6 Competition Parts List

The m471 modification was documented by TUV "per letter from Porsche" (picture below) - I have the complete original K'brief - (it has been examined and translated twice by 2 former PCNA German-national employees)

. ..


What little i know about my car's roots 914-043-0919 is derived from (1) verbal telephone interviews of Wolfgang Dworazik and it's last owner Thomas Frank, by two fellows in Germany, Jurgen Seyffert and Ulrich Trispell and (2) a few Germany Region PCA folks, over a period of 10 yrs 1997-2007, reported to me via eMail; (3) from old notes and photos and an 1976 audiotape by my brother David who purchased the car in Stuttgart in 1974; (4) details contained in the original German TUV (a.k.a. "title" which i have, and which has been examined and translated twice by 2 former PCNA German-national employees, most recently by George Mihallik at at the 2013 SNR Concours.

(Jurgen Seyffert's father & Dworazik grew up in the same neighborhood) (social networking works) (Jurgen had one of the few 914-6 Sportomatics)


available here for your perusal Competition Parts List 914/6

914/6 Competition Parts List

- so when ya ask "what is original" regarding a GT - it means anything in that list could be original

- but also realize that not every GT got every possible option in the list

According to Seyffert, via eMail, 1997:

"Mr. Dworazik had direct connection to all departments of PORSCHE as an employee, he bought all needed parts directly. At that time such parts had been available for small money",

"His connection and knowledge brought him in to the position not only to make M 471, but additionally obtaining 911 R racing power to his dream. "

"The colour was Lindgrün 7676 226 Lesonal 1. It was painted on a new body, where all the M 471 parts where installed"

Close Inspection of the body indicates it was indeed sprayed that color originally, and it's underside crannies overspray suggest that was painted in a production situation.

Dworazik was, at the time of construction, a factory mechanician, "Techn. Angestelter", a 911 engine builder, and he personally built the 911R engine that appeared in this car in 1972. I do not know how old he was at this time.

of note - the car body has no stamped numbers in the trunk, and there is no underdash serial number as i have found on the other two 914-6's i've owned (1 USA, 1 Euro). It never had a Karman color plate, nor chassis number. It never had either a battery tray in the Rt engine comp't nor a relay plate in the Lft engine comp't.

( - that is at odds with the claims that all bodies were pre-finished/trimmed

Strong evidence exists that "my" body was not ever in the normal production que, and did not yet have a dash-cowl when it was acquired. That gives some credence to SirAndy's post noted above suggesting the numbers were not stamped on the bodies at the time shipped from Karmann) - looking at the pics of the "production line in this & other posts, it is fairly clear that a body shell was simply loaded onto a trolley and moved "to wherever" for installation of various components.

- the finished 0919 GT was TUV certified for road use in May 1972 with the flares noted and 185-70x15 tires on 8" steel wheels. Dworazik entered it in an ADAC "Spezial GT Klasse" event that same month.

Dworazik later opened his own Porsche shop, Wolfgang Dworazik Autoservice, Stotzr. 8, D-70190, Stuttgart

endnote:
my brother David who bought the car in Germany in 1974 and grey-market imported it in 1976, knew much of the detail, got killed in a helicopter; and for a long long time i just saw this as "an old race car" that i was just caretaking in his memory; It saw regular street use for years with a 2.8 engine that i built in 1977, and then i started SCCA racing with it in 1992, doing whatever mods were necessary to that purpose.

when I got 0919 cleared thru U.S. Customs & EPA back in 1976-77 i was required to put in such a WS tag and also prove the car had all the USA safety stuff and lights by sending photos of all. (it didn't, so I had to temporarily dummy up some of those external things for the photo-shoots) - the penalty for non-compliance was either re-export or crush)

[Steve Snyder]

Larry,

With regard to how the /6 cars arrived from the Karmann plant and the original finish, there is a current discussion on the "Originality" board surrounding this topic: http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=152778. For the GT question, they were all standard 914 chassis that were modified "after the fact" into the track cars with which you are familiar. Many of them were actually builds by individual race teams selected and supplied by Porsche with all components required for the conversion. There is some interesting information on this process at the following URL: http://www.canepa.com/inventory/racecar_1/914-6_GT/ Hope that helps with your investigation.

[SirAndy]

As far as i know, the production /6 cars were painted at Karman and at least partially assembeled there and then shipped to Porsche where they were finished off.

There are several pictures floating around showing the painted /6 shells sitting on dollies in the parking lot at Porsche waiting for the final assembly.

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(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads/post-5727-1321073277.jpg)

[SirAndy]

Does anyone know any of the people involved,
or of anyone who actually visited and viewed any of these processes?

Yes, i know someone who was there during that time ...
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[ConeDodger]

Larry,
Your car is a real M471. What do you know about it's history? I seem to recall your brother owned it at one time...

[sixnotfour]

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[gms]

From the pictures I have seen and the stories that I have heard the 914/6 had its body assembled and painted at Karman. It appears that the cars came to the Porsche assembly line missing only suspension and drive train. The Karman number is a serial number not a build date as in the case of the 914/4. The contiguous Karman number that I have compiled suggests that they did small runs of each exterior color. Analysis of the VIN and Karman numbers correlation tells us that there was not particular order in which the cars were finished at Porsche (where they would receive the VIN number at the end of the assembly line). I would guess that some cars needed addition attention and they also might have mixed different colors in depending on demand.

The 914/6 and 914/4 bodies are different in many ways including engine mounts, center heating vent panel, oil tank cut-outs, dash boards, sound deadening and the body under coating. I have seen no evidence that the 914/4 engine mounts were cut off of a 914/6.

In the case of the GT and M-471 the bodies were pulled from the existing stock of Karman delivered 914/6s and then taken to Werks 1 where race cars are assembled. There is no specific run of VIN numbers dedicated to the GT; they pulled cars as they needed them. There are many photos of the Monte Carlo GTs being built. While examining un-restored examples of the GT I have noticed that the paint (and under coating) had been stripped away from areas where reinforcement and other parts were added and then re-painted. It seems like an inefficient process but this practice was also followed in preparation of other Porsche race models. Porsche was able to get FIA certification for the GT in the group 4 class by merely making 500 GT kits, completion of the cars was unnecessary.

Most M-471s were specifically built to run in the SCCA‘s B production class in 1971. These plans were abandoned when pressure from other manufactures forced the SCCA to re-classify the car.

[gms]

The 916 was a concept car outlined by Ferdinand Piech in a memo dated February 12th 1971. It has been suggested that these were made from 914/4 bodies but they were Karman number 131 0433 – 131 0442 indicating that they were 1971 end of the run 914/6 chassis’s. I believe they were also constructed at Werks 1 but I would need to check on that.

[SirAndy]

In the case of the GT and M-471 the bodies were pulled from the existing stock of Karman delivered 914/6s and then taken to Werks 1 where race cars are assembled. There is no specific run of VIN numbers dedicated to the GT; they pulled cars as they needed them.

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One thing to note, the GTs (as well as the early pre-production prototypes) had an internal project number.

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[carr914]

The 916 was a concept car outlined by Ferdinand Piech in a memo dated February 12th 1971. It has been suggested that these were made from 914/4 bodies but they were Karman number 131 0433 – 131 0442 indicating that they were 1971 end of the run 914/6 chassis’s. I believe they were also constructed at Werks 1 but I would need to check on that.

I thought the 916s were built on 72 914 Chassis

[Tom_T]

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FYI - here are some GT build pix from the German 914 "Big Book" (DGVWPB as SirAndy likes to call it in shorthand) that I found online at Jeff Bowlsby's 914 website:

http://bowlsby.net/914/Classic/



.

And these are at the Karmann Plant from same book & website:



.

.... and I'm not sure, (IMG:style_emoticons/default/shades.gif) but I'm guessing that this gal must've worked for the factory in QC & was checking the pop-up headlight operation, or maybe lubing it????? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)



.

.

This interesting topic for me too, in learning some more about -6's, GTs, etc.!
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[gms]

The 916 was a concept car outlined by Ferdinand Piech in a memo dated February 12th 1971. It has been suggested that these were made from 914/4 bodies but they were Karman number 131 0433 – 131 0442 indicating that they were 1971 end of the run 914/6 chassis’s. I believe they were also constructed at Werks 1 but I would need to check on that.

I thought the 916s were built on 72 914 Chassis

I believe it was George Hussey who made that claim but it is false.
The Karman numbers are NOT build dates and fall right in line with the last of the 1971 914/6s.

[Tom_T]

After reading your description in the VIN registry on here Larry, and seeing your pic of your M471 below......

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads/post-179-1216712797.jpg)

I noticed the mirrors & am wondering if these pix could be the same 914-6/M471 in a prior paint scheme?



Sorry, but I don't recall the source, but the pic title has this info:
www.lsmteknik.se-10787-1286107842.2

This is the full write-up in Larry's VIN registry on the car, which may help some of you more knowledgeable on 914-6/GT/M471 determine whether they're the same 914-6 in those pix?
<snipped>
Porsche 914-6 GT, chassis #9140430919,is a "M-471" option 914-6 built between Oct 1971 -May 1972, by Wolfgang Dworazik, who was a 911 engine builder in the Porsche factory at the time... this was his "dream car". He said the original rallye-car body was badly damaged and that he obtained a fresh body shell off the line to reconstruct the car as a "new" GT.

He had "in-the-house" access to all new m471 parts, and the assistance of fellow GT builders; he also obtained original 916 front & rear "bumpers" and flared rocker panels from his inside sources.

He installed a 911R engine. The finished GT was re-certified for road use, approving the flared fenders, by the TUV on 25 May 1972. Still have original Kraftfahrzeugbrief.

Car was originally delivered to MAHAG & first registered in Kempton, Bavaria by Richard Riefler, a MAHAG technician, 8 May 1970, then soon transferred to dealer Fa. W. Kutschera who rallyed it, until crashing.

Wolfgang Dworazik competed it in ADAC Spezial GT Klasse slaloms during 1972-3. Sold to Thomas Frank with fresh 2.4S engine in Jun 1973, then to David Moeller in Nov 1974. Gray-market imported in Oct 1976.

Raced SCCA & VARA 1993-2005. Bare-metal strip & black repaint in '82-83. Fresh 2.7RS engine in 2002.

Seeking information about above German owners, early photos, documents and competition history. Possibly for sale. See pics www.stazak.com/914/gt/car/9140430919.html and http://community.webshots.com/album/353607434OYDDsp
<end snip>

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[bulitt]

Looks like the car has three exhaust pipes... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

[gms]

After reading your description in the VIN registry on here Larry, and seeing your pic of your M471 below......
I noticed the mirrors & am wondering if these pix could be the same 914-6/M471 in a prior paint scheme?

The Ex-Rally Monte Carlo car pictured is 914.143.0140

[carr914]

Tom, that GT with the Mirrors is one of the three Monte Carlo Cars that was later turned into the Recaro Safety/Fire Car

[gms]

Looks like the car has three exhaust pipes... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

Block off the side pipe and have a sport muffler or
block off the 2 back pipes and have a quieter muffler

[carr914]

Looks like the car has three exhaust pipes... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

It does - they can be blocked off to run the 2 out the center or the 1 out the side

[Tom_T]

Looks like the car has three exhaust pipes... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

IIRC they were 2 thru pipes (no muffling) & the stock left exit pipe on 914-6 Banana mufflers, but don't recall if they were switchable for quieter street/in-town use on rallies.

Thanx for clarifying TC & Glenn - it was a longshot, but just thought maybe...... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

EDIT - well there ya go - the 2 experts answered it while I wuz (IMG:style_emoticons/default/type.gif) away! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

[SirAndy]

I thought the 916s were built on 72 914 Chassis

I believe it was George Hussey who made that claim but it is false.

I thought his claim was that *his* 916 shows evidence of 914/4 engine mounts that were removed.

I never heard him claim *all* 916s were based on /4 chassis ...
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