OT: Residential electrical help Options

[flipb]

I replaced a chandelier in my house today and it didn't go quite as smoothly as planned. Help me figure out how badly I screwed things up.

Our house was built in 1959, but the wiring to this fixture appeared newer. There was a chandelier on a dimmer switch in our dining room, and I bought a new one to replace it. The new one weighs less than the old one, so I wasn't worried about the fixture box holding it - and the mechanical side of the install went fine.

I was expecting it to be simple enough... to find Hot, Neutral, and Ground inside the fixture box. Discovering that it was more complicated, I tried to wire the new one the same way I found the old one wired.

Inside the box were FOUR sets of hot & neutral. The way I found it wired to the old chandelier (and the way it's now wired to the new chandelier) is as follows:

1. 3 Black wires and one White wire were connected with a wire nut.
2. A Black, a white, and a lead to the chandlier are connected in a wire nut
3. A white, another white, and the other lead to the chandelier are connected via a third wire nut

I've also tied the grounds together, and I'm fairly sure that's done properly.

Once I had it wired, the first time I tried to turn on the light, it blew the circuit breaker. I decided that I must've accidentally reversed the white wires from B and C, above, so I switched them and tried again.

Now the fixture works, but the dimmer doesn't dim... as soon as it comes on, the bulbs are at full brightness. The other strange thing is that until I installed a light bulb in the chandelier, nothing else on that circuit was getting power. I can tell because the Oven is on the same circuit and the display was blank until I put the first bulb into the chandelier.

Did I blow the dimmer switch when I had it miswired? Or do I have it miswired now, preventing the dimmer from working? And why are there four sets of wires coming through this box?

Need help from any electrical geniuses to determine whether I can repair this myself or if it's time to call an electrician.

Thanks.

Flip

[TheCabinetmaker]

Did you follow the installation wiring diagram? Fixture wiring will vary for different fixtures. Are you using the came dimmer? Or did it come with a new one? Do you have a meter?

[ww914]

The simplest way to figure what you have is to isolate all wires, then with a tester find out which wire is the feed into the ceiling box, that is, which is the hot one. One will be the hot wire, probably black. The other black ones will feed on to something else, like the oven display light or other receptacles or whatever.

The lamp and switch wiring are pretty simple. From the hot wire you found, one of the black ones will go to the switch. A white wire will be the return from the switch and will really be hot, not a neutral when the switch is on. There will be no neutral from the switch. So, the wire wire coming back from the switch will be the hot, switched wire from the switch. The white neutral wire will come from the ceiling box and go to the lamp.

Once you figure out which is the feed into the ceiling box, just tie the other black wires to it so they can go on feeding other stuff. The neutrals will all tie together. Sounds like you've got the ground figured out. If this doesn't make sense, email me and I will draw a diagram.

[jmill]

White = neutral, black = power (120V), green = ground. Switches, including dimmers are only connected to the black wire. Switches open and close the circuit, dimmers will vary the resistance to give you more or less voltage.

Don't connect black to white or green = blown breaker (bad).

Quick and dirty skletch.

[flipb]

Appreciate the help so far.

Discovered that something is still very wrong... depending on the position of the dimmer, other things on that circuit aren't getting full voltage.

I dug out my electrical tester and the batteries in it are dead... of course, they're some odd button-cell size, so I'm running out to buy new ones. Be back soon.

[windforfun]

Can your chandelier be controlled by more than one switch?

Your chandelier J-box serves more than one circuit. Ideally, these additional circuits should only be for more lights.

If you have metal J-boxes, they should be grouned too.

Buy yourself a decent VOM (volt ohm milli-amp) meter & follow ww914's directions. He assumes, however, that the previous "electrician" complied with the color code. Hots are easliy detected with the volt meter. Your other circuits are easily identified with the ohm meter (provided they're loaded).

Since your house was built in 1959, you may have "knob & tube" wiring or two-wire Romex without a real ground. Your ground (green or bare) & your neutral (white) should show 0 ohms if you have a true gound (they're connected via a bus bar in your main breaker box).

Some of your wiring may actually be useless. Tear the wiring apart in the J-box & clean it up. Determine the always-on hot (black) wire & what goes to & from the switch J-box. One white will go to the switch j-box & the return will be black (maybe). The power feed isn't necessarily at the switch j-box. It sounds like the chandelier's j-box has the power feed.

Get the light circuit working first. Dump the dimmer for a regular switch for now. Similarly determine what wires drive the oven j-box. Hook these up to the always-on hot wire & the neutral. Now identify which outlets or circuits are no longer working. Once you've done this, open up the respective j-boxes, & using a long piece of wire (one half of lamp zip cord perhaps) with your ohm meter, determine which circuit is which.

I've done alot of home wiring over the years & you wouldn't believe the crap I've seen. Are your j-boxes at least mechanically secure?

I'm confident you can figure it out. Draw simple diagrams as you go.

[toolguy]

That's what happens when a semi-electrical doesn't make home runs to code. . . somehow you're back feeding the other outlets through the dimmer switch and the bulbs. . . the j-box for the light should have never been a tie point. . .


the hot lead from the breaker should go to the dimmer switch first, BUT ___maybe
there is a chance that there is a hot lead to the j box at the light , and that another wire goes over to the dimmer switch and back up to the light,

So 1st figure which lead is the hot lead from the breaker. . . then make the light work first. . .
then figure out what else doesn't work. . . .
then figure out how to get those connected to the hot circuit breaker lead

[Mike Bellis]

Inside the box were FOUR sets of hot & neutral. The way I found it wired to the old chandelier (and the way it's now wired to the new chandelier) is as follows:

1. 3 Black wires and one White wire were connected with a wire nut.
2. A Black, a white, and a lead to the chandlier are connected in a wire nut
3. A white, another white, and the other lead to the chandelier are connected via a third wire nut

I've also tied the grounds together, and I'm fairly sure that's done properly.

Romex is the type of wiring you have. It consists of a cable with 3 conductors; Black, White, Ground.

Black is usually HOT
White is usually NEUTRAL

On s switch leg, the white is switched hot not neutral. In your case, you have a circuit splice in the light box. Not unusual.

Take all the Black wires and put them together. Take all the grounds and put them together. Now figure out which white wire goes to your switch. This white wire will be the HOT to the light fixture. Take the rest of the white wires and put them together with the neutral wire to the fixture. Done!

[windforfun]

Inside the box were FOUR sets of hot & neutral. The way I found it wired to the old chandelier (and the way it's now wired to the new chandelier) is as follows:

1. 3 Black wires and one White wire were connected with a wire nut.
2. A Black, a white, and a lead to the chandlier are connected in a wire nut
3. A white, another white, and the other lead to the chandelier are connected via a third wire nut

I've also tied the grounds together, and I'm fairly sure that's done properly.

Romex is the type of wiring you have. It consists of a cable with 3 conductors; Black, White, Ground.

Black is usually HOT
White is usually NEUTRAL

On s switch leg, the white is switched hot not neutral. In your case, you have a circuit splice in the light box. Not unusual.

Take all the Black wires and put them together. Take all the grounds and put them together. Now figure out which white wire goes to your switch. This white wire will be the HOT to the light fixture. Take the rest of the white wires and put them together with the neutral wire to the fixture. Done!

I hope it's this simple. A black wire should go to the switch & a white wire should come from the switch. This is how you & I would do it.

[flipb]

Inside the box were FOUR sets of hot & neutral. The way I found it wired to the old chandelier (and the way it's now wired to the new chandelier) is as follows:

1. 3 Black wires and one White wire were connected with a wire nut.
2. A Black, a white, and a lead to the chandlier are connected in a wire nut
3. A white, another white, and the other lead to the chandelier are connected via a third wire nut

I've also tied the grounds together, and I'm fairly sure that's done properly.

Romex is the type of wiring you have. It consists of a cable with 3 conductors; Black, White, Ground.

Black is usually HOT
White is usually NEUTRAL

On s switch leg, the white is switched hot not neutral. In your case, you have a circuit splice in the light box. Not unusual.

Take all the Black wires and put them together. Take all the grounds and put them together. Now figure out which white wire goes to your switch. This white wire will be the HOT to the light fixture. Take the rest of the white wires and put them together with the neutral wire to the fixture. Done!

I figured out which Black is always hot, and which black feeds the dimmer, and which white is hot from the dimmer.

Gonna try following these instructions now.

Thanks for the help!

[flipb]

D'oh. Tied all the blacks together in a wire nut, tied all the whites (except the hot one from the dimmer) in a wire nut, along with the neutral lead for the chandelier; tied the other chandelier lead to the white wire I identified as a Hot.

Flipped the breaker back on and everything was fine... the instant I tried to turn on the chandelier, it blew.

One of the black wires has white markings on it. What does that mean?

[Mike Bellis]

D'oh. Tied all the blacks together in a wire nut, tied all the whites (except the hot one from the dimmer) in a wire nut, along with the neutral lead for the chandelier; tied the other chandelier lead to the white wire I identified as a Hot.

Flipped the breaker back on and everything was fine... the instant I tried to turn on the chandelier, it blew.

One of the black wires has white markings on it. What does that mean?

May be a neutral for another circuit. Try to isolate it first, then try your dimmer. If the dimmer works, tie the wire marked white to neutral and see what happens.

[ww914]

Someone mentioned before that if a three-way switch is involved, there could be other things to look for. So, are there two switches in the room that control the chandelier or just the one dimmer switch?

Edit: Mike's suggestion above is good. Try that first.

[flipb]

Someone mentioned before that if a three-way switch is involved, there could be other things to look for. So, are there two switches in the room that control the chandelier or just the one dimmer switch?

Not a three-way switch, just the single dimmer.

[flipb]

To recap:

There are four black wires coming into the fixture box. I've identified that one of them is always hot (i.e., the main lead from the panel).

When I join the "always hot" to one of the other black wires, one of the white wires becomes Hot. I presume this is the switched wire for the chandelier. However, as long as these two black wires are joined, the white wire is hot regardless of the position of the dimmer - even if the dimmer is off.

I have not yet found any wires that seem to "care" whether the dimmer is switched on or off.

[ww914]

This is tough, at least for me, doing this without being there. What I would do next is make up some kind of continuity tester, undue all suspected wires and see what goes where. Once you know which wires go where, you shoud be able to figure out what's going on. Just make sure the hot black is separated when you do this. Be careful!

[Mike Bellis]

Makes sense to me. Connect the black wire marked white to the white wire bundle.

It is going to a load. You are reading the HOT from the other black wire, through the load (light nulb, TV, etc) making it a "hot neutral". As long as it is disconnected, something in your house does not work. If you find what is not worling, un plug or turn it off, That wire should no lomger be hot.

Just hook it to the neutral bundle.

[windforfun]

To recap:

There are four black wires coming into the fixture box. I've identified that one of them is always hot (i.e., the main lead from the panel).

When I join the "always hot" to one of the other black wires, one of the white wires becomes Hot. I presume this is the switched wire for the chandelier. However, as long as these two black wires are joined, the white wire is hot regardless of the position of the dimmer - even if the dimmer is off.

I have not yet found any wires that seem to "care" whether the dimmer is switched on or off.

Please read my previous posts carefully.

Replace the dimmer with a regular switch.

You may have some old wiring somewhere that's been sheet-rocked over.

Connect the always on or hot black wire to all of the other black wires.

The dimmer switched return wire (white or black) should now be active.

The white wire you mentioned will be hot if the circuit is loaded (made complete with a lamp plugged into an outlet perhaps).

Call an electrician if you've lost interest.

I used to work with a guy who had a sign in his shop that read: "Boner Electric - We Guarantee The Longest Shorts In Town." No shit.

Good luck & don't worry, 120 V won't kill you.

[flipb]

Wow, I suck at this but I appreciate the help!!

Progress report:

I can peer up into the fixture box and identify the four wire bundles where they enter the box:

1. The Always Hot (main) and the corresponding Neutral, which must go to the main panel - These look like newer wires
2. I've labeled this bundle "A" - when I connect the Black to the Always Hot, the White of the same bundle turns Hot as well - These look like newer wires Edit: Windforfun, I realize now that this circuit has a load somewhere in the kitchen and has nothing to do with the chandelier.
3. An older bundle, Black and White - I've labeled this "B"
4. An identical older bundle, Black and White - I've labeled these "C"

I loosened the dimmer switch from the wall and the wires behind it (one black, one white) appear to be the older type of wires. So now I just need to figure out, of B and C, which one goes to the dimmer - right?

[flipb]

Wow, I suck at this but I appreciate the help!!

Progress report:

I can peer up into the fixture box and identify the four wire bundles where they enter the box:

1. The Always Hot (main) and the corresponding Neutral, which must go to the main panel - These look like newer wires
2. I've labeled this bundle "A" - when I connect the Black to the Always Hot, the White of the same bundle turns Hot as well - These look like newer wires Edit: Windforfun, I realize now that this circuit has a load somewhere in the kitchen and has nothing to do with the chandelier.
3. An older bundle, Black and White - I've labeled this "B"
4. An identical older bundle, Black and White - I've labeled these "C"

I loosened the dimmer switch from the wall and the wires behind it (one black, one white) appear to be the older type of wires. So now I just need to figure out, of B and C, which one goes to the dimmer - right?

And the winner is... bundle C goes to the dimmer switch!! Yay.