 Seized No one main bearing, But also found this |
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| jeffdon |
 Jul 14 2013, 12:12 PM
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#1
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Senior Member  Group: Members Posts: 1,094 Joined: 24-October 06 From: oakland, ca Member No.: 7,087 Region Association: None  |
The thrust bearing on the cam shaft lost one of its flanges? WTF? How does this happen? Anyone seen this? Maybe some extra metal from the failure got into my main bearing?
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| OCD Performance |
Jul 14 2013, 01:21 PM
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#2
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Newbie Group: Members Posts: 10 Joined: 10-July 13 From: Canada Member No.: 16,112 Region Association: None |
QUOTE(jeffdon @ Jul 14 2013, 02:12 PM)  The thrust bearing on the cam shaft lost one of its flanges? WTF? How does this happen? Anyone seen this? Maybe some extra metal from the failure got into my main bearing? Some Questions 1) the thrust edge that broke, what end of the motor was it? oil pump or flywheel? 2) did you use double thrust for this build? 3) what cam? who made it? 4) what oil pump? could you have used the melling that requires trimming? did you do the extra o ring seal? 5) did you mock this motor up with the cam /crank without the gear set to make sure it spins free before final assy? 6) did you check cam end play before final assembly? (thrust clearance) 7) what tweaked you to tear the motor down? better photos of the back side and bearing surface please. Cheers Mike (IMG:style_emoticons/default/driving.gif) |
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| jeffdon |
Jul 14 2013, 02:09 PM
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#3
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Senior Member Group: Members Posts: 1,094 Joined: 24-October 06 From: oakland, ca Member No.: 7,087 Region Association: None |
QUOTE(OCD Performance @ Jul 14 2013, 12:21 PM) QUOTE(jeffdon @ Jul 14 2013, 02:12 PM) The thrust bearing on the cam shaft lost one of its flanges? WTF? How does this happen? Anyone seen this? Maybe some extra metal from the failure got into my main bearing? Some Questions 1) the thrust edge that broke, what end of the motor was it? oil pump or flywheel? Oil pump side. 2) did you use double thrust for this build? The front cam bearing had one half with flanges each side. 3) what cam? who made it? Web Cam 494. 4) what oil pump? could you have used the melling that requires trimming? did you do the extra o ring seal? Shadeck, good fit on the drive tang. No o-ring. 5) did you mock this motor up with the cam /crank without the gear set to make sure it spins free before final assy? Sure did. Then put about 8000 miles on it. 6) did you check cam end play before final assembly? (thrust clearance) How do I do this? 7) what tweaked you to tear the motor down? AFter running this for almost a year, one plug wanted to back out. Pulled the head, had the plug hole welded up and recut. On start up after putting it together, no one main bearing seized after just a few cranks, and some coughing and sputtering, it did not run or rev. better photos of the back side and bearing surface please. Cheers Mike (IMG:style_emoticons/default/driving.gif)   |
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| OCD Performance |
Jul 14 2013, 05:44 PM
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#4
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Newbie Group: Members Posts: 10 Joined: 10-July 13 From: Canada Member No.: 16,112 Region Association: None |
In all my years of working on Type 2, 411, 412 and 914 motors for VW Canada, this is a new one to me. However if this was on my bench, this is what i'd be looking at.
1) measure the cam journals to make sure they are in spec. However im quite sure your cam is toast now. but confirm or deny the cam that was involved here is in spec or not. 2) cam line bore. is it proper and straight? if you dont have the tools for this, take it to a machine shop. Or find another block. Other items a) picture of the oil pump cover - gear side please b) to check the cam thrust clearance, with the case half on a stand, install the bearings. drop the cam in, use feeler guages to check the clearance or end play. or slide it back and forth with a dial guage set up to measure the thrust clearance. c) how do the rest of the cam and crank bearings look? d) Cam gears. check for proper lash. some other thoughts. I dont like playing hide and go seek with these motors. If the cam wasnt ground oversized by accident by webcam, i'd be looking for another block. I would be looking real hard at the oil pump drive and cam gears. always install a double thrust bearing for the cam. So, cam joirnal too big, block twisted, cam gears or low oil pressure. Always mock you motor up first with no cam gears installed. Its a pain in the ass, but well worth it. this way, with the block all torqued up, you can spin both cam and crank, slide them back and forth to make sure everything is in order. Say, is there any chance you accidentally installed that thrust bearing in the wrong side of the block? I.e. used the other standard bearing and covered the oil gallery hole for that journal? ..... Just sayin" Cheers Mike (IMG:style_emoticons/default/driving.gif) |
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| Cap'n Krusty |
Jul 14 2013, 06:18 PM
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#5
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Cap'n Krusty Group: Members Posts: 10,794 Joined: 24-June 04 From: Santa Maria, CA Member No.: 2,246 Region Association: Central California |
I'd sure take a careful look at the condition of both the camshaft and crankshaft gears. Could be a chinger in the steel gear pushing the cam into the thrust surface. The bearing also shows signs of being dry. Why did the #1 main bearing seize?
The Cap'n |
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| r_towle |
Jul 14 2013, 06:56 PM
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#6
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Custom Member Group: Members Posts: 24,588 Joined: 9-January 03 From: Taxachusetts Member No.: 124 Region Association: North East States 
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After seeing both, if this is the same motor with the seized main bearing...
You need to look at your oiling system...slumping ain't right. |
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| jeffdon |
Jul 14 2013, 07:17 PM
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#7
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Senior Member Group: Members Posts: 1,094 Joined: 24-October 06 From: oakland, ca Member No.: 7,087 Region Association: None |
QUOTE(r_towle @ Jul 14 2013, 05:56 PM) After seeing both, if this is the same motor with the seized main bearing... You need to look at your oiling system...slumping ain't right. Well, it was a cold start after not running for over 6 months. I did NOT pull the plugs and spin it to build pressure. Wish I would have. And I just had a thought. When installing the pump the FIRST (well, actually second, due to having to tear it down to get out a dropped washer), I snapped the end of the cam off with the oil pump 180 out of orientation. Replaced the cam. Think I bent the gear? |
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| Mark Henry |
Jul 14 2013, 07:58 PM
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#8
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that's what I do! Group: Members Posts: 20,065 Joined: 27-December 02 From: Port Hope, Ontario Member No.: 26 Region Association: Canada |
QUOTE(jeffdon @ Jul 14 2013, 09:17 PM) QUOTE(r_towle @ Jul 14 2013, 05:56 PM) After seeing both, if this is the same motor with the seized main bearing... You need to look at your oiling system...slumping ain't right. ... And I just had a thought. When installing the pump the FIRST (well, actually second, due to having to tear it down to get out a dropped washer), I snapped the end of the cam off with the oil pump 180 out of orientation. Replaced the cam. Think I bent the gear? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif) Ya think that may have been hard on ...well... just about everything in that area? |
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| jeffdon |
Jul 14 2013, 08:05 PM
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#9
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Senior Member Group: Members Posts: 1,094 Joined: 24-October 06 From: oakland, ca Member No.: 7,087 Region Association: None |
QUOTE(Mark Henry @ Jul 14 2013, 06:58 PM) QUOTE(jeffdon @ Jul 14 2013, 09:17 PM) QUOTE(r_towle @ Jul 14 2013, 05:56 PM) After seeing both, if this is the same motor with the seized main bearing... You need to look at your oiling system...slumping ain't right. ... And I just had a thought. When installing the pump the FIRST (well, actually second, due to having to tear it down to get out a dropped washer), I snapped the end of the cam off with the oil pump 180 out of orientation. Replaced the cam. Think I bent the gear? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif) Ya think that may have been hard on ...well... just about everything in that area? Geez. That traumatic? I F-ed up the whole case maybe? |
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| OCD Performance |
Jul 14 2013, 08:16 PM
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#10
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Newbie Group: Members Posts: 10 Joined: 10-July 13 From: Canada Member No.: 16,112 Region Association: None |
QUOTE(jeffdon @ Jul 14 2013, 09:17 PM) QUOTE(r_towle @ Jul 14 2013, 05:56 PM) After seeing both, if this is the same motor with the seized main bearing... You need to look at your oiling system...slumping ain't right. Well, it was a cold start after not running for over 6 months. I did NOT pull the plugs and spin it to build pressure. Wish I would have. And I just had a thought. When installing the pump the FIRST (well, actually second, due to having to tear it down to get out a dropped washer), I snapped the end of the cam off with the oil pump 180 out of orientation. Replaced the cam. Think I bent the gear? Wow. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/headbang.gif) Bingo. Yes, get another case and gear set. Did the crank survive? If it really did, flush the hell out of the oil drillings. |
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| jeffdon |
Jul 14 2013, 08:22 PM
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#11
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Senior Member Group: Members Posts: 1,094 Joined: 24-October 06 From: oakland, ca Member No.: 7,087 Region Association: None |
QUOTE(OCD Performance @ Jul 14 2013, 07:16 PM) QUOTE(jeffdon @ Jul 14 2013, 09:17 PM) QUOTE(r_towle @ Jul 14 2013, 05:56 PM) After seeing both, if this is the same motor with the seized main bearing... You need to look at your oiling system...slumping ain't right. Well, it was a cold start after not running for over 6 months. I did NOT pull the plugs and spin it to build pressure. Wish I would have. And I just had a thought. When installing the pump the FIRST (well, actually second, due to having to tear it down to get out a dropped washer), I snapped the end of the cam off with the oil pump 180 out of orientation. Replaced the cam. Think I bent the gear? Wow. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/headbang.gif) Bingo. Yes, get another case and gear set. Did the crank survive? If it really did, flush the hell out of the oil drillings. A whole new case? Oh god, I need a drink. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beer3.gif) |
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| OCD Performance |
Jul 14 2013, 08:46 PM
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#12
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Newbie Group: Members Posts: 10 Joined: 10-July 13 From: Canada Member No.: 16,112 Region Association: None |
Yup a whole new case. Much better than half a case. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
No fears man. what doesnt kill us makes us stronger. Good luck with the new up and coming build. Cheers Mike (IMG:style_emoticons/default/driving.gif) |
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| jeffdon |
Jul 14 2013, 09:10 PM
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#13
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Senior Member Group: Members Posts: 1,094 Joined: 24-October 06 From: oakland, ca Member No.: 7,087 Region Association: None |
QUOTE(OCD Performance @ Jul 14 2013, 07:46 PM) Yup a whole new case. Much better than half a case. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) No fears man. what doesnt kill us makes us stronger. Good luck with the new up and coming build. Cheers Mike (IMG:style_emoticons/default/driving.gif) Say it ain't so. Any way I could verify this? |
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| OCD Performance |
Jul 14 2013, 09:24 PM
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#14
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Newbie Group: Members Posts: 10 Joined: 10-July 13 From: Canada Member No.: 16,112 Region Association: None |
did the cam shaft come in contact with the block when the thrust end of the bearing broke off? Did it chew up the block just a tad? If so its toast.
You can measure all the cam journals, then check alignment. Again, maybe something you dont have the tools for? must have spent 5K on measuring tools when i bought the boring bar. a local air cooled shop should be able to do such an inspection for you. |
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| jeffdon |
Jul 15 2013, 08:08 AM
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#15
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Senior Member Group: Members Posts: 1,094 Joined: 24-October 06 From: oakland, ca Member No.: 7,087 Region Association: None |
QUOTE(OCD Performance @ Jul 14 2013, 08:24 PM) did the cam shaft come in contact with the block when the thrust end of the bearing broke off? Did it chew up the block just a tad? If so its toast. You can measure all the cam journals, then check alignment. Again, maybe something you dont have the tools for? must have spent 5K on measuring tools when i bought the boring bar. a local air cooled shop should be able to do such an inspection for you. All I have are a dial indicator and calipers. I suppose I can measure the widest part on each case half to get an idea. |
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| Cap'n Krusty |
Jul 15 2013, 09:05 AM
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#16
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Cap'n Krusty Group: Members Posts: 10,794 Joined: 24-June 04 From: Santa Maria, CA Member No.: 2,246 Region Association: Central California |
Wait a minute. You snapped the cam because the oil pump was 180 out? Not likely. There is no "right" way to install the OP, as long as the tab lines up with the slot in the camshaft. The tab on the shaft is centered, and will fit 2 ways. Sounds to me like you used a T1 pump to "get better oil pressure". We can see how well THAT worked, huh?
Krusty's Back! The Cap'n |
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| jeffdon |
Jul 15 2013, 09:51 AM
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#17
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Senior Member Group: Members Posts: 1,094 Joined: 24-October 06 From: oakland, ca Member No.: 7,087 Region Association: None |
QUOTE(Cap'n Krusty @ Jul 15 2013, 08:05 AM) Wait a minute. You snapped the cam because the oil pump was 180 out? Not likely. There is no "right" way to install the OP, as long as the tab lines up with the slot in the camshaft. The tab on the shaft is centered, and will fit 2 ways. Sounds to me like you used a T1 pump to "get better oil pressure". We can see how well THAT worked, huh? Krusty's Back! The Cap'n Captain, I humbly beg to to differ. The drive shaft is offset to the towards the top a bit, where it centers on the cam. Put it in upside down, and the tab hits the gear just below center. Thats how I snapped off the end of a new cam, right behind the flange that bolts to the gear. |
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| DBCooper |
Jul 15 2013, 09:58 AM
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#18
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14's in the 13's with ATTITUDE Group: Members Posts: 3,079 Joined: 25-August 04 From: Dazed and Confused Member No.: 2,618 Region Association: Northern California |
You posted while I was typing... and answered my question, thanks.
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| jeffdon |
Jul 15 2013, 10:24 AM
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#19
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Senior Member Group: Members Posts: 1,094 Joined: 24-October 06 From: oakland, ca Member No.: 7,087 Region Association: None |
More forensics. Oil pump cover, showing wear, and the cam geat, with a boogered tooth.
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| Mark Henry |
Jul 15 2013, 11:10 AM
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#20
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that's what I do! Group: Members Posts: 20,065 Joined: 27-December 02 From: Port Hope, Ontario Member No.: 26 Region Association: Canada |
QUOTE(Cap'n Krusty @ Jul 15 2013, 11:05 AM) Wait a minute. You snapped the cam because the oil pump was 180 out? Not likely. There is no "right" way to install the OP, as long as the tab lines up with the slot in the camshaft. The tab on the shaft is centered, and will fit 2 ways. Sounds to me like you used a T1 pump to "get better oil pressure". We can see how well THAT worked, huh? Krusty's Back! The Cap'n I would imagine he means upside down. Pound in a T4 pump upside down and you would get the same result. I've used type one pumps for years with never an issue, but then I have have always modified and installed them correctly. Is that a steel or AL cover? |
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