CB Performance Black Box, Timing solution Options

[Montreal914]

I ran across this product while surfing on CB performance website.

http://www.cbperformance.com/ProductDetail...roductCode=2013

Does anyone have experience with this? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/chowtime.gif)

It seems like a possible alternative to timing and vacuum advance issues, especially when using different than stock cam that screws up the vacuum.

[monkeyboy]

Looks like the same thing an MSD box does.

[stugray]

Looks like the same thing an MSD box does.

Only the high end MSD boxes are programmable via a computer cable.
This box looks exactly like what I have been building.
I have the RPM/timing input circuit, the USB microcontroller, and the MAP sensor.
The part I havent done yet is the coil firing circuit.
Mine would also have the ability to fire COP systems.

[Moneypit]

What Dizzy would be ideal with this? Currently have a 009 w/32˚ advance & blue coil, and Weber 44's. I noticed the comment that they recommend a vacuum reference kit for dual carbs. I'm curious what that function would perform, since my carbs do have the vacuum ports already installed. Is where the "manifold vs ported" vacuum thing comes in?

[stugray]

"Ideal": a Mallory unilite from Tangerine racing....

[Moneypit]

"Ideal": a Mallory unilite from Tangerine racing....

Ha! That was already on the to-get list. I'm guessing you just remove the advance springs to "fix" the advance curve? Then the brain and optical setup decides when to actually fire based on the mechanical connection between the dizzy and the motor? (to put into kindergarten terms)

If you could have a 100% ideal timing curve on a cammed Carb motor, what would it look like? Is that what their demo curve on the ad is supposed to be?

[stugray]

I believe that Chris sets up the Mallory for about as optimal as you can get with centrifugal advance alone.
I have one, but have only driven about 10 miles with it so far.

If you go with a compterized advance device you lock out the centrifugal advance mechanism.
The black box also changes advance based on load, not just RPM.
That is why it needs the MAP sensor.

[Jake Raby]

Mallory has seen another change... And right now trying to source units direct is a challenge.

We have moved completely away from them.

[stugray]

Mallory has seen another change... And right now trying to source units direct is a challenge

Does that mean I should be buying spare rotors & caps for that unit right away then?

This weekend, one spitfire driver was unable to race (and wasted hundreds of $$) because he didnt have ONE spare dist cap for his "fancy new" distributor...

[Moneypit]

Based on correspondence, I believe the issue has to do with current workmanship on the out-of-box Unilite. I think the issue was deeper than caps/rotors and involved pins and such internal to the distributor. Basically, at one point the Unilite was easy to make a drop-in for a 914 motor. It was minimum effort and $$$ for Jake and others to set them up. Since then (2006/7?), it requires some man-hours to work the new manufacture distributors to be like the old ones we used to get.

When you get one from Tangerine, they put the extra man-hours in and bring them up to snuff. Basically, time = $$$,

And if I understood Jake's position it was probably hogging more man-hours than was profitable. Jake's team offer them only on the turnkey motors because again they reqire more fine-tuning and work to dial them in, which comes with them building a motor for you.

Have I characterized the scenario correctly?

[vw505]

I have the CB Performance Magnaspark Dist. on my car. I am very happy with how it works, its fully adjustable like the Mallory and MSD. Pulling my 009 and installing this I saw a head temp drop and it ran much smoother.

[Jake Raby]

We've been reworking them from scratch since 2007.. After the last debacle we gave up on them completely.

It already takes over 100 hours to build one of my engines from scratch, so we don't worry about time and having to set everything up, because we have to with every part, anyway.

[nsr-jamie]

not trying to get off topic here but is the mallory distributor from Tangerine Racing a worthy upgrade? I am running twin 40mm dells with a 090 dizzy and it runs very good...just about to upgrade to my Tangerine exhaust...after that probably go with Weber44's I think...the Mallory distributor is something I am very interested in if its worth it...I would be curious to hear about others and what experiences they had who did the conversion....does it make a noticeable difference?

[ggress]

I looked into that CB Black Box device because my vacuum advance / retard unit has a small leak. If I understood them correctly, the distributor has to be set with #1 at 70 degrees BTDC static.

I have a 2.0 with D jet. For now I plan to keep the stock FI systems. So I would need to relocate my FI trigger points to maintain the relationship between full advance spark and FI triggering. Correct me if my logic is wrong.

Not sure I want to get into all that. Does anybody know where I can get a replacement vacuum advance module for a '74 2.0? Would prefer new.

[Montreal914]

I don't understand why the need of the Mallory distributor if the advance needs to be locked anyway to use the Black Box.

I'm running D-Jet so I'm curious to see if anyone has experience with it.

Stugray, you say you are building your own similar device, will you use it on FI?

Overall, this product seems to give attractive benefits for a reasonable amount of money, especially for someone stuck with stock distributor.

[Moneypit]

I don't understand why the need of the Mallory distributor if the advance needs to be locked anyway to use the Black Box.

I'm running D-Jet so I'm curious to see if anyone has experience with it.

Stugray, you say you are building your own similar device, will you use it on FI?

Overall, this product seems to give attractive benefits for a reasonable amount of money, especially for someone stuck with stock distributor.

I think the emphasis would be more on having an optical/electronic points setup versus breaker, or at least that's how I'm seeing it.

Lets see if I understand how a regular Dizzy works: Gear in Dizzy shaft is connected to (Crank or Flywheel?). As engine turns, dizzy rotor turns. Each time dizzy rotor touches a "point", it sends the spark down that cylinder's spark plug wire, with charge coming from the coil. I know it's more complicated. The dizzy affects timing by advancing/retarding based on design. It can do these with vacuum and/or centrifugal force.

So for the black box to provide "dynamic" timing based on RPM with a non-fixed curve, here's how I'd imagine it working: Dizzy rotor is connected to engine. Dizzy is timed to whatever baseline is directed in Black Box instructions. All mechanical/vacuum advance or retard is disabled so the Dizzy basically works to tell timing. Somehow, dizzy tells black box "X" cylinder is at TDC or whatever predetermined timing was set. Black box also knows RPM and MAP. It uses these factors to decide when to spark, either advance or retard. Black box then sends spark signal either to the Dizzy to send to the cylinder, or does black box send straight to cylinder?

Wish someone from CB was here to explain...

[Moneypit]

not trying to get off topic here but is the mallory distributor from Tangerine Racing a worthy upgrade? I am running twin 40mm dells with a 090 dizzy and it runs very good...just about to upgrade to my Tangerine exhaust...after that probably go with Weber44's I think...the Mallory distributor is something I am very interested in if its worth it...I would be curious to hear about others and what experiences they had who did the conversion....does it make a noticeable difference?

Tangerine still takes the time to get the Mallory Unilites up to snuff, so yes from them they are GTG. I've still heard good things that when tuned properly they make a noticable improvement for carb users. Chris recommends using different wires instead of monocore. You can use a Bosch blue coil as well. In the short term I still plan to get one from him, I'm just curious about these electronic timing/spark units for someday in the future when I actually have $$$.

[Montreal914]

I don't understand why the need of the Mallory distributor if the advance needs to be locked anyway to use the Black Box.

I'm running D-Jet so I'm curious to see if anyone has experience with it.

Stugray, you say you are building your own similar device, will you use it on FI?

Overall, this product seems to give attractive benefits for a reasonable amount of money, especially for someone stuck with stock distributor.

I think the emphasis would be more on having an optical/electronic points setup versus breaker, or at least that's how I'm seeing it.

Lets see if I understand how a regular Dizzy works: Gear in Dizzy shaft is connected to (Crank or Flywheel?). As engine turns, dizzy rotor turns. Each time dizzy rotor touches a "point", it sends the spark down that cylinder's spark plug wire, with charge coming from the coil. I know it's more complicated. The dizzy affects timing by advancing/retarding based on design. It can do these with vacuum and/or centrifugal force.

So for the black box to provide "dynamic" timing based on RPM with a non-fixed curve, here's how I'd imagine it working: Dizzy rotor is connected to engine. Dizzy is timed to whatever baseline is directed in Black Box instructions. All mechanical/vacuum advance or retard is disabled so the Dizzy basically works to tell timing. Somehow, dizzy tells black box "X" cylinder is at TDC or whatever predetermined timing was set. Black box also knows RPM and MAP. It uses these factors to decide when to spark, either advance or retard. Black box then sends spark signal either to the Dizzy to send to the cylinder, or does black box send straight to cylinder?

Wish someone from CB was here to explain...

Yes you pretty much got it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

All the distributor does in this case is give the black box 2 signals per engine rev. (breaker points, optical, hall effect, your choice...) which is enough for the Black Box to determine the engine speed and position of the crank (probably based on TDC #1).

Using this input and the vacuum, you program your own timing curve for various situations. The Black Box will trigger directly the coil. So, like the MSD box, the breaker points don't see any load and will last for a long time.

I think an attactive part of this product is the fact that it takes into consideration the load wich gets screwed up with a non-stock cam grind. But I wonder if getting 2 pulses per engine rev is precise enough. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/idea.gif)

Now if only they could make a Black Box to replace the MPS... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

[Jake Raby]

There are things that all the set up time in the world won't overcome.

Sometimes people don't know, what they don't know..