Help me decide - 914 to buy? w/pics, Need opinions please (long) Options

[9144me]

I'm interested in a '74 914 that is currently for sale in Massachussets. I went to check it out and took a bunch of pics.

What I want in a 914: a car to compete with in PCA autox and drivers ed events. Ideally already modified for power and suspension. Target: $6k. Cosmetic perfection is not of interest to me as long as the car is solid, rust free and proven as a competitive car. I've been looking for about two years now, been autocrossing for three years with a few DEs here and there. I'm a do it yourself kinda guy, i don't rely on mechanics anymore. Last summer my brother and I did a complete top to bottom rebuild on his 951. It's time for me to get a car for myself.

Here are the details and my comments:


Previous owner in Arizona built the car to his spec. owned it for 8 years, sold it in 2002.
PICS! PICS HERE PICS!


ENGINE: (the highlight of the car)

About 20k on rebuild.
Approx power around 140hp, I think that a high estimate. But then again I drove it yesterday in 30 degree weather with the carbs tuned for summer weather. It obviouslly needs tuning for the weather, feels/sounds like much more power is available.
2.2L built approximately 4-5 years ago.
Dual Dellortos 40s
Full MSD
Lightened internals, balanced, blue printed
Port and polish, head work, etc
Exact specs are unknown, no paperwork.
Full headers into magnaflow
Run on street gas.
I figured any shop that builds engines would clean everything up real nice. Even though the rebuild was 5 years ago why does it look like crap in the pics with only ~20k miles on it?

SUSPENSION:

Rear sway, stock. Previous owner took off the rear to autox. FTD car in 3/7 events so he must know what he's talking about.
Front sway, not sure which
180lb rear springs
Rear KYB Gas-a-just (not a big fan of those)
Around 21mm T-bars
Bump steer kit

BRAKES:
Stock
Stops well. Didn’t really get a chance to test them out
? master cylinder, any idea how to identify?
Brake proportioning valve on rear firewall in engine compartment

BODY:
Straight
Checked major problem areas, all seem solid
Car was originally blue, repainted white. You can see the original color in the front trunk.
A few paint chips

Had a 200+ pound guy sit in the passenger side with the roof off. Checked door gaps before and after. Door opened/closed fine. Also checked the door with the driver side of the car jacked up. Still same gap.
Fiberglass bumpers

INTERIOR:
What you see in the pics, MSD mounted behind the passenger seat.
Reworked stock seats custom bolstered.
Floors appear to be solid.
Alpine stereo.

TRANNY:
Best shifting 914 I’ve ever driven. Granted I’ve only driven three.
Gates are tight, no slop.
Grinds going into first, maybe its me. But don’t all of them?
Clutch is tight.


EXTRAS:
Dino wheel, momo shift knob. Alpine stereo.
FTD car 3 out of 7 events in Arizona PCA AutoX
All heater stuff gutted
Car should weigh about 2000lbs


WHEELS:
I don’t think I want the wheels that are on the car now, the offset is too big on them. They would rub in an autox. Plus the car is a bit high. I'd see myself getting adjustable perches and lowering it a bit. If that were to happen these wheels would definitely rub.
He’s got a set of wheels with 3 year old V700s (rock solid, probably worthless) mounted on these wheels: http://www.pelicanparts.com/914/914_photo_...joe_otool-2.jpg I think. Apparantly the previous owner autoxed with them so they must fit. Comments?

What to do?

CONCERNS:

The engine looks a bit dirty for being rebuilt 4-5 years ago. Maybe they didn’t touch the exterior. A guy from Arizona PCA thinks it was built by Stuttgart Southwest. I found their website, very top notch.
The underside looks a tad rusty in near the firewall. Maybe its some form of coating peeling off, I can’t tell. I poked around, it all seems solid.
Second color under front trunk. Paint is nice, but small chips up front.
No stock seatbelts, no harness bar either…. I need either stock belts or a harness bar. Right now its got old 4 point harnesses with no real mount up top.
No heat, I can live with that right?
Engine looks a tad bit wet, although there was no major drip spot in the garage after sitting for a few months
I’ve spent most of my time checking out more modern cars. Things like the engine compartment and underside area areas of concern to me simply because of this reason. These guys definitely know what they are talking about, they claim it’s the best car they have ever come across structurally. The engine is definitely very powerful. Everything looks ok. Comments?

My friend had this to say:

As far as the suspension, I think you’ll want to make a lot of changes, but you can drive the car like that for a while before you decide what you want to do. I personally think 180lb. rear springs are too stiff, especially with a rear bar (you’ll also want adjustable spring perches at some point – the car sits too high). I’ll bet the car has a 21mm front bar (I prefer the 19mm). I’d also go with stock torsion bars. And you’ll want to upgrade to Konis or Bilsteins at some point. But who knows, maybe it all works together nicely.

I’m a little concerned about the rust. It may just be surface (in which case it’s not a big deal, but I can’t tell from the pictures), but there is a little bit of it that you’ll want to stop before it gets worse. I can’t say there’s a lot of rust, because we’ve all seen 914’s that are far worse, but you do see some in the trunk, on the battery tray (up top where the battery is actually sitting), a spot on an area that no longer has any undercoat near the jack plate on the left side, various body panels, the headers, shift rod, rear sway, etc. Most of that is minor, and will only take a few minutes to grind off, coat with a rust stopper like Oxysolve, and paint – but it will take some work. I’d also wonder what, if anything, is lurking under the undercoat. The door gap does look a little tight on the front of the driver’s side, and you can see the paint is a little chipped there – likely from the fender catching the door. That may mean it’s been hit, but pretty much every 914 has been at some point. It could just mean the door isn’t hung right. But if the gap doesn’t change when it’s up in the air, the rust probably isn’t bad.

As far as the wheels, I’ve never seen those before. They don’t look like they fit the car in the rear. Really, the only four-bolt wheels that fit the car in the rear with 205 series tires are Fuchs, Mahles, and Pedrinnis (all original equipment). The wheels you are thinking about getting are called Empis, and they won’t fit a 205 size tire either (they won’t clear the rear fenders). But you could probably get away with 195’s on either of the wheels that are already on there, or on the Empis (but it will be hard to find track tires in this size).

In addition a mechanic added this: "KYB shocks are useless. They work well for a few thousand miles and then act like stock shocks. And what size are those springs? Look like 180lb to me. they'll need replacing asap."

[Kerrys914]

Here are my thoughts
Scaned the photos while at work (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/cool.gif)

Seems like engines with no paper work have the highest HP out put (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/wink.gif) What are the engine numbers codes?
140 HP??? (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/wacko.gif) Was it at least built from a 914 2.0L engine with 2.0L heads? (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/dry.gif)

-There are tons of wires just hanging around. Not very clean installations of whatever it was, lack of detail and thought.
- Appears to be a color change from blue.
- Didn't see a photo of the rear trunk area.
- Cooling tin is missing, not a good sign


You didn't mention the price. That will play into the value of the car. I don't think it is a $6000 car and any stretch. $4000 maybe? $5000 maybe but I would need more info?

[mike_the_man]

Doesn't look too bad. The rust on the back of the floor pans could be from a leaky back window. It doesn't look like the rust is too bad. Just grind it down and fix it up.

The engine is a little dirty, and 140hp seems like a pretty high estimate. Depending on who built it, it could be a little sketchy. It's hard to say what you're getting with the engine.

I don't see what the problem with 180lb springs are. For autox, you might want to step up to bigger front torsion bars, but there are guys running over 200lb springs for autox. The KYBs aren't well liked around here. Koni adjustables would probably be the best. There are guys around here that know alot more than me about setting up cars for autox.

All in all, it doesn't look too bad to me. As long as the body is solid, you can work around everything else, IMHO.

How much does he want for it?

[mike_the_man]

I'm seeing cooling tin, at least some. Although, there are no real good shots of the engine. What parts of the tin are missing? If there is missing tin, thats a bad sign. Engine is probably running very hot.

[Howard]

QUOTE (mike_the_man @ Feb 2 2005, 09:06 AM)

All in all, it doesn't look too bad to me. As long as the body is solid, you can work around everything else, IMHO. How much does he want for it?

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/agree.gif)

Amen! If you like to wrench the rest of the stuff is all fixable.

[Allan]

Looks like some of the wrap around tin pieces on the heads are missing.

[9144me]

I don't have the engine codes. The car was originally a 2.0L, that's the only info I have on the engine. I can't say if it was built off the original case/heads.

Which cooling tin is missing?
I'm not a big fan of wires hanging around either. If thats sloppy it makes you wonder about the more important things.

I also saw a "super 7" oil filer. I'm definitely not a fan of generic oil filters. That means a lot to me. Anyone who takes care of any car should use proven brand name filters. Is Super7 known to be any good? At least its not a FRAM filter like the last 914 i looked at.

I guess i missed a pic of the trunk. It looked fine to me though.

It is obviouslly a proven fast car. The previous owner took FTD in a few autocrosses. But things like poorly offset wheels and crappy KYBs make me wonder.

He wants $7k for it. No lower. Any thoughts?

The guy said it never runs hot at all. The lack of a external oil cooler bothers me though. I was under the impressin that any time you bump displacement on these cars you need an oil cooler, especially in hot AZ weather. Right? If I get it and use it for DE then an oil cooler is a must.

Yea i like to wrench, thats not a problem. I just don't want this to turn into a headache. I've heard too many horror stories.

[mike_the_man]

7 grand seems high to me. There seem to be a lot of unknowns with that engine. How does he know that it doesn't run hot? Does he have a Cylinder Head temp gauge and oil temp gauge in it? I notice a center console, so he probably has an oil temp gauge, but does it have numbers on it?

I think for $7000, you should be able to get more car. The engine makes me a little nervous in this one. Bigger displacement and missing tin should make it run pretty hot.

[9144me]

Yes the engine is a big unknown. All I know is the little bit of info provided, the shop it was built at a few years ago and what my ears and butt tell me. It does sounds like a powerful engine, it does move along nicely. Although my test drive was extreemly limited by the lack of license plates and insurance, not to mention cold crappy salt covered roads.

The gauges look stock, so that means the temp gauge is oil right? No number on it. But he claims it has never moved beyond 1/2 way.

[Kerrys914]

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/ohmy.gif) $7000.

If you asking.......Walk away. You can find a much better car for that kind of money.

You want a car that people take care of. Taking car of things means the little things like where they drill holes and if they use gromets in those holes (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/wacko.gif)

Come to Hershey this year and you'll see some great carsf or sale. I'll keep my eye out for some cars for sale in my area.

You are better off spending $600 on shipping a $5000-$6000 car from CA to MA.

There are enough guys around to do a PPI for you. There are alot of guys in different states who know these cars and who you can trust for a good PPI.


Best of luck. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/beerchug.gif)

[joea9146]

Tell him to put down the Crack pipe. For 7g who can get a lot nicer car.
I would take a better look under the battery in the Hell Hole I see some rust there hard to tell from the Picture but I would be concerned. No Doc on the motor is not a good selling point and lots of loose wires and little things missing on the car indicates lack of care. For 6-7g you can get a pretty nice car. Lot better than this one... One other thing I would be concerned how the Harness belts are mounted.

[vortrex]

hell hole area looks a little rusty, did you try sticking your fingers through it? I agree $7k is way too much. there have been autocross prepped cars on these classifieds and elsewhere that have sold for less and looked better.

[DuckRyder]

QUOTE (Kerrys914 @ Feb 2 2005, 01:57 PM)

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/ohmy.gif) $7000. If you asking.......Walk away. You can find a much better car for that kind of money.

I agree.

A quick scan of the pictures, I don't think my offer would be much over half that. I wouldn't consider the cost of any modification or overhaul that I couldn't either see, or see the paper for. A 140hp motor with no paper might as well have never happened...

[CptTripps]

QUOTE (Kerrys914 @ Feb 2 2005, 12:57 PM)

You are better off spending $600 on shipping a $5000-$6000 car from CA to MA.

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/agree.gif)

[SirAndy]

QUOTE (Kerrys914 @ Feb 2 2005, 09:57 AM)

Walk away. You can find a much better car for that kind of money. You want a car that people take care of. Taking car of things means the little things like where they drill holes and if they use gromets in those holes (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/wacko.gif) Come to Hershey this year and you'll see some great carsf or sale. I'll keep my eye out for some cars for sale in my area. You are better off spending $600 on shipping a $5000-$6000 car from CA to MA. There are enough guys around to do a PPI for you. There are alot of guys in different states who know these cars and who you can trust for a good PPI.

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/agree.gif) amen to all of the above. for $7k, you'll get a car out here that someone actually cared about ...

to make that car nice, you would have to spend a lot of man hours and $$$.
trust me, i've been there ...
(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/dry.gif) Andy

[seanery]

I agree that this is not a $7k car.
There are too many issues including:
wet tranny, orange silicone fix (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/wacko.gif)
shoddy job moving the msd inside and the mounting leaves much to be desired
dash sucks
car is filthy...to me means (I don't take car of my car, see?)
KYB shocks suck
Koni yellows with adjustable perches will cost you $
fiberglass bumpers are just white gel coat, not even painted (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/unsure.gif)
hole where the antenna used to be isn't capped, covered, plugged...makes me wonder how they did the turn signal delete

there are more things that others have said

this is at best a $4k car IMHO

[Part Pricer]

Well, at least the seller didn't try to hide anything. Those pictures make the car look like crap. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/icon8.gif)

So, the car was originally blue, then painted white. But, what's going on in the front trunk? Why is that black? Was the front trunk floor replaced?

[Kerrys914]

I almost forgot (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/ohmy.gif)


Welcome to 914world.com and our madness (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/wacko.gif) (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/wacko.gif) (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/wacko.gif) of 914's and everything related (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif)

Cheers (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/beerchug.gif)

[DuckRyder]

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/agree.gif)

Yep, just post any car you are looking at up and we can rip it apart. That way you will really know what you are getting into.

If I was going to buy a 914 (mine was free) After it passed my inspection I'd post it up here and say "Gimme the good, the bad, and the ugly" (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif)

[9144me]

Thanks for all the insight guys.

I've been to Hershey the past two years, I know there is always some nice stuff going around.
I also agree that its best to find a west coast car and ship it. But i could never buy a car sight unseen. This car was an Arizona car that was shipped over a few years ago.

BTW - i took all those pictures, hehe. I tried to get as much as possible for you guys to see. I also tried to the pics of the areas that concerned me the most. I'm very meticulous and picky when it comes to inspecting a car. I tried to convey as many of the expected problem areas as possible. I wish I had the car up on a lift instead of on a little floor jack.

I didn't spend enough time around the 'hell hole' but if i go back i will definitely check. However there is no body sag and the guy knows what he bought and is looking at.

Yea, all those negatives mentioned make me hesitate for a bit. $7k is too much in my opinion. If things are all cleaned up and done right then its reasonable, but as is i can't say it is.

The car was blue at some point, then painted white. The trunk are by the windshield is still blue, but the front probably got some antirust coating put on it. i'm really not sure.

Unfortunately i'm bitten by the bug and "really really want one now!" before the autox season starts. But obviouslly i have to be patient and wait for the right one to come along at the right price. Assuming i can't get this one for the right price.