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> Hydraulic clutch (part 2), w/ pics for Ginter & y'all
airsix
post Jun 4 2003, 02:14 AM
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Had lots of requests for pictures of the hydraulic clutch conversion, so here you go.
Things that have changed since the last episode:
1) re-did the slave mount. Got rid of the stupid pulley bracket and did it right.
2) MC install was a major PITA. Had to cut a chunk out of the pan and make a mounting surface that was flat and angled in the right direction.
3) I found that there is not enough room up next to the steering rack to cut a line and re-flare it after you have discovered that you slipped the flare-nut on backwards before plumbing all the lines (ARRRRGGG!!!!). That's ok, I did a better job the second time anyway.
4) Rebuilt pedal box while I was in there (Had the bronze bushing kit laying around). Thanks Lawrenece for your comments about this last week. I almost skipped it and saved it for another time. Glad I rebuilt it. Big difference.
Ok, here's the pics. (No pic from inside the car 'cuz you can't see anything with the pedal box in the way)
-Ben M.


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airsix
post Jun 4 2003, 02:15 AM
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Closer shot of the clutch MC next to the brake MC.


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airsix
post Jun 4 2003, 02:23 AM
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And here's the slave with my dirty tranny in the background. Hose on slave cyl is just a chevy brake flex hose (used because it had the right fittings). Hose connects to steel line mounted to engine mount bar. Coupler at the firewall disconnects lines for engine removal. 3/16" steel line fits right down the clutch tube, through a grommet in the pan along-side the MC, and into the MC. There is a 2psi residual pressure valve in the line right at the MC. (Used since MC is lower than slave).

It works very well. The KEP stageII clutch feels much smoother and only slightly lighter than the stock cluthc with cable. I like it, but it was much more work than anticipated.
-Ben M.


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airsix
post Jun 4 2003, 02:30 AM
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Parts details:

Tilton 7/8" aluminum master cyl. with remote reservoir (pitstopusa.com)
CNC "pull type" slave cyl. (pitstopusa.com)
Wilwood 2psi residual pressure vlave (pitstopusa.com)
FLAPS brake flex hose (just some hose with 3/16" flare fittings - male on one end, fem on other)
60" stick of 3/16" steel tube (through clutch tube)
24" stick of 3/16" steel tube (from firewall to slave cyl)
misc. brass fittings to connect stuff.
$7 tube flaring kit from Harbor Freight
slave cyl mount - fabricated from flat stock
slave cly-to-clutch-fork trunion - fabbed from steel (didn't trust little plastic OEM piece)
MC mount - fabricated from 14ga sheet
MC linkage - (fork to attach MC pushrod to clutch pedal lever) fabricated from flat stock, a hex nut, and a steel pin w/ keeper.
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914Timo
post Jun 4 2003, 02:37 AM
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Congratulations !!

Very nice pics. Good job. Many many thanks posting them here.
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Brad Roberts
post Jun 4 2003, 02:41 AM
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I need to do some digging. The MC we used in the past wasnt such a pain to install. You do cut and weld.


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Jeroen
post Jun 4 2003, 04:12 AM
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Great job!

How do you like the "feel" of the hydro-clutch?

cheers,

Jeroen
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Mueller
post Jun 4 2003, 09:51 AM
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Good work Ben,

Can you attach a pressure bleeder to the MC or the slave?
Do you think you'd need to?


hmmmm, add a few electronics and you could have a paddle shifting transmission (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

my wife test drove the new M3 which has the Sequential Manual Transimission.....thought it was great and asked why Porsche does not offer something similar (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)
(RUF did for a few years, but not many sold for the 10k price tag)

Sequentiellen M Getriebe
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tryan
post Jun 4 2003, 10:22 AM
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excellent job. keep the heat away from the slave cylinder if the pedal gets soft ( the plastic slave on the truck melts every 30k or so)

audi is comming out with a dual clutch tranny this fall. while you are pulling hard in gear the next gear is already selected. 300 millisecond shifts. i cannot wait to take one out for a test drive. then bring it back and tell them "sucks to be you."
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airsix
post Jun 4 2003, 10:43 AM
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To answer some questions:

Feel: Yes, I like the feel. It's not light. Just smooth. My only complaint is that the residual pressure valve does impede backflow ever so slightly on engagement (when you take your foot OFF the pedal). Nothing you notice normally, but if I 'POP' the clutch I can almost get my foot off the pedal faster than the pedal moves up (Is that "clutch float"?). I have to really pull my foot off as fast as I can to experience this, so I don't expect to ever notice it while driving. If I do I will remove the residual pressure valve and see if I can live without it.

Bleeding: Yes, this system can be pressure bled. There is a bleed nipple on both the slave cyl and the master cyl. This is how I bled the system. In fact, it was the ONLY way I was able to get it bled. I first bled the master cyl and then bled the whole system by opening the bleed nipple on the slave and then applying about 15 psi air pressure to the master cyl reservoir cap vent hole. I just kept refilling the resevoir until the slave stopped pushing bubbles out of the clear vinyl tubing I stuck on the bleed nipple.

Advice: Lets hear from Brad and/or others who've done this. I like everything about my install except for all the trouble it was to mount the master cyl. If someone has an alternative it's probably better. I was also dissapointed that the Tilton MC does not have a sealed reservoir - I mean that rather than having a "tophat" type sealed bladder in the cap that get's sucked down as fluid is consumed it just has a little vent in the cap. I don't like the idea of the fuid being exposed to the atmosphere like that (fluid being hydroscopic and all). Thoughts? I realize the Tilton mc is designed for race applications where fluids would be changed frequently, but this car is a daily driver (despite all the mods).

-Ben M.
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Gint
post Jun 4 2003, 09:28 PM
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Nice work Ben! Thanks for the pics and info.

I take it you used the inboard end of the clutch pivot rod for the MC? That would explain the cylinder being inboard of the brake MC?

Sorry I'm late catching up to this thread. I'm running behind today.
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airsix
post Jun 5 2003, 01:52 AM
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QUOTE(Gint @ Jun 4 2003, 07:28 PM)
I take it you used the inboard end of the clutch pivot rod for the MC? That would explain the cylinder being inboard of the brake MC?

Correct. I figured that was the only practical way to retain the stock clutch pedal.
-Ben M.
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914Timo
post Jun 5 2003, 01:57 AM
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Ben, did you need to do any kind of modifications to the stock clutch pedal axle? How did you attached the stock clutch pedal axle to the MC pivot rod ? Did you use some kind of swivel joint there ??
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airsix
post Jun 5 2003, 11:00 AM
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QUOTE(914Timo @ Jun 4 2003, 11:57 PM)
Ben, did you need to do any kind of modifications to the stock clutch pedal axle? How did you attached the stock clutch pedal axle to the MC pivot rod ? Did you use some kind of swivel joint there ??

The entire pedal box and its parts were unaltered. The clutch MC actuation rod is attached at the same pivot point that the clutch cable attached to. In the same way that the cable attached to the pivot with a little fork and a pin, the mc actuation rod is attached, but from the front rather than behind. I did not use the clutch cable fork and pin - too small for the larger diameter mc rod. I fabbed a new fork and pin, but it works the same way. I did have to shorten the mc rod a little.

-Ben M.
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914Timo
post Jun 6 2003, 12:02 AM
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Many thanks Ben for shearing these information. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wavey.gif)
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airsix
post Jun 6 2003, 02:08 AM
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QUOTE(914Timo @ Jun 5 2003, 10:02 PM)
Many thanks Ben for shearing these information. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wavey.gif)

My pleasure. I wish I could say it was really easy and everybody should do it, but until someone comes up with a drop-in master cyl install I'd say don't bother unless you don't mind doing lots of fabrication. I'm glad I did it, but I wish it had been more straight forward.

-Ben M.
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shoguneagle
post Jun 11 2003, 04:11 PM
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This is what I like about this site. Someone helps or comes up with an excellent example of making the Teener a better car. The efffort and the comments on this thread reflect this total "can do" attitude.

I have been wanting to do the hydraulic clutch and now it is done. Thanks. Great effort and great job.

Steve Hurt
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