puzzling body twist Options

[doug_b_928]

Sorry in advance for the longish post. My 73 was hit before I bought it as a naive kid of 15 (the car was badly rusted and poorly repaired or not repaired at all, more than 30 years ago). A few years ago I set out to begin the slow process of restoring the car only to find out how extensive the rust is and that the chassis is twisted. I wish I could drop it off to Rick or Scotty but that's not in the budget (especially with the exchange on the CAD). I know I should abandon any hope of restoring it, and it may well become my parts car, but it keeps sucking me back in.

Case in point: When looking at the car from the rear the twist is obvious, it's 1.25" higher on the passenger side. I've done the measurements on the car and the only part that's off is the rear end. The trunk is square but the 'length of rear body assembly' (q measurement) is 8mm short (and, as shown below, shorter on the driver's than passenger's side as well), the width of the trunk opening (r measurement) is a bit wide at the top (2-3mm), perfect at the point above the transmission crossmember, and narrow at the very back (-7mm). The diagonal across the trunk (s measurement) is square but 8mm short.

I also measured from various points under the car down to a flat surface (trailer floor) and was quite shocked to find symmetry side to side all of the way from the firewall back to the transmission crossmember and even a bit past that point. As well, I measured these points from the firewall and to the suspension mounting brackets and found symmetry.

I was able to check measurements on another shell that does not appear to have ever been hit and they were either identical or almost identical to mine (except the ones that are off on mine mentioned above).

The PO had put in a homemade engine bar, so I theorized that perhaps the bowing of the front of the fenders meant that the engine mounts bowed as well, but I acquired an engine bar and it fit like a glove. Then I thought that perhaps the trans mounts were shifted (necessitating a custom engine bar so the trans would mount), but the symmetry side to side from the attached measurements below as well as the consistency with the measurements I took from another shell suggest that's not the case either.

This all suggests to me that the car is only twisted at the very back, including the rear trunk floor pan but not the trans crossmember. Even the pinch weld of the "frame" a bit behind the trans cross member is not different side to side as measured to the floor of the trailer. The fender(s) are pushed in at the very back and maybe slightly bowed toward the front (at the bottom front the fenders they are bowed significantly past the doors). The inner wheel wells in the trunk area are also off from one another a bit in terms of height from the trailer floor, but not by much (I calculate at most 5mm).

Attached are my measurements (that are supplementary to the ones on the list of 'Body Dimensions' as well as some pics that show the asymmetry in the rear of the car. It is clear that the rear trunk floor was pushed in, it took the hardest hit on the driver's side and there is a poor patch on that side (but there was also damage to the tail light area of the passenger fender). Looking from underneath you can see the difference in distance between the underside of the trunk floor and the tail section. It almost looks as if they welded on a different tail section crooked, but given the repair I doubt that any panels were replaced (even the broken tail liight housing was re-used with puddy to seal it up). When you look from the back of the car into the trunk you can see how crooked the tail piece is in relationship to the trans crossmember (see pic below).

So I have all of these data but I still can't figure out whether the driver's side is low or the passenger side is high, or both. Does anyone have any advice on what I can do to figure that out? Do the pics below showing the difference in distance from the underside of the trunk floor to the bottom of the tail piece give any clues?

Here's the view from the back where you can see how the tail section is off relative to the trans crossmember:



Here's a view of the underside where you can see, sort of, how the distance from the underside of the trunk floor to the bottom of the tail section is quite different from side to side (it's more obvious in real life):



Here's the view from the underside of the dirver's side:



Here's the view from the underside of the passenger's side:



I'm hoping the latter two pics might give some clues as to which side is (more) off.

Here is a pdf attachment of the measurements that I took:

 914_Supplementary_measurements_June_1_2016.pdf ( 1.06mb ) Number of downloads: 698

[doug_b_928]

No replies yet, and I'm not surprised as this is a tough one. In looking at the last two pics I see that the bracket has been cut away on the passenger side. If that bracket is the same as the one on the driver's side then it wouldn't line up with the hole, so that is suggesting to me that the tail section is pushed up relative to the trunk floor on the passenger side. Make sense?

[rick 918-S]

I like chassis puzzles. Before I read the entire post I deduced the issue is the rear floor pan. I can see where it has been hammered to death. To repair it I would get a rear trunk floor from RD. While changing the rear section I would realign the tail light panel. 3mm is industry standard in the collision business. Early unit body cars conform nicely to the standard as there is still slots and alignment tolerance built in to the bolt on parts.

[doug_b_928]

Thanks very much for chiming in, Rick. The delta from the floor of the trailer to the tail light opening is over 1" side to side. With the rear trunk floor out can that be adjusted as well? I was guessing that the fenders would need to be removed and then the remaining adjusted before putting the fenders, tail section, and floor back in.

I wish your work would bring you closer to Winnipeg so I could show you the car. Perhaps there's a way to make it work...

[Jon H.]

Is your suspension and tires still on? If so, if your measuring from the floor the difference might be in the tires/suspension.
Regards'

Jon

[doug_b_928]

The car is a shell, on a bench made from Jeff Hail's plans. It was made with a laser level so no worries about it being off.

The trunk floor was mangled but it's more or less level with the trans cross brace, which is level. To my untrained eye the tail piece and back parts of the fenders are what are out of whack. Going by my last two pics above where the bracket is missing from the passenger side and the hole wouldn't line up if the bracket were there, it looks to me like the passenger side rear fender and tail section need to come down an inch and a quarter.

If so, I'll talk to a frame shop to see if they can pull the passenger corner down. Should I remove the rear trunk floor first?

[rick 918-S]

Take a photo of the chassis rails, right and left side profiles thru the rear wheel wells. If hit hard they kink or bulge at the wheel centerline.

[rick 918-S]

Your like 7 hrs. away from me. If I wasn't upside down with a real job I would take a trip up and get eyes on. Maybe later in the year... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)

[doug_b_928]

That would be terrific, Rick! That's why I was thinking if you're still covering Northern Minnesota you could pop up here (only 1 hour north of the border) when you're up North, or I could meet you/pick you up.

I'm thinking if the car won't cost much to straighten maybe I could still have you do some of the work that I'm not competent to do (well, that would be all of it, but you know what I mean...). I'm trying to figure what it's going to take to fix it before I spend any more money on it (e.g., before ordering panels from RD).

Here are the requested photos and then some, hot off the press.

Driver's side wheel well. I had a friend look at it and he thought he saw a small kink that I've circled in red (there is a vertical crack in the undercoating that's hard to see in the pic), but it really doesn't look like a kink to me (but what do I know).







Passenger side wheel well:







Another shot of the underside. You can really see in this one the difference relative to the trunk floor and if that bracket were present on the passenger side how far off the hole would be (when looking at it imagine that the trunk floor and trans crossbrace are level).



Here are some pics of the other trouble spots in terms of fit. The trunk lid is bent so in the two pics below I'm trying to hold it down with one hand and take the picture. The first pic is looking across from the passenger side at the line of the trunk on the driver's side fender. The fender doesn't quite match up. Looks like it bowed up when it was pushed in from the collision.



This is looking from the driver's side at the passenger fender-trunk seam. Not as bad as the driver's side:



Here's the bowing I was talking about at the driver's rear fender where it meets the door:



Same on the passenger side:



But the doors fit better at the front, suggesting to me that it can't be corrected by adjusting the door (but I've never tried adjusting the doors). Here's the driver's side door to front fender (I hadn't noticed before that it is a bit out):



And here's the passenger door to front fender. It also appears to be a bit out but in real life it looks pretty good.



As an aside, the front door gaps are perfect and I've used my support bars to bring the targa bar to windshield opening to spec (25 and 1/8"; it was 3/16 wide) which made the rear door gaps perfect as well.

[sixnotfour]

Driver's side wheel well. I had a friend look at it and he thought he saw a small kink that I've circled in red (there is a vertical crack in the undercoating that's hard to see in the pic), but it really doesn't look like a kink to me (but what do I know).

that maybe from the trunk torsion bar slapping down on the body ..hinge brake , or improper method of removal of tension.. look in the engine compartment..to see it it is the source..

[doug_b_928]

Interestingly, that crack is exactly where the top of the bracket is for the, for lack of a better descriptor, upper trunk torsion bar bracket (not the bar that has the 90 degree bend that sits more to the inside, but the bar that has a straight end that mounts inside an upside down u-shaped bracket that's spot welded to the top of the fender). I don't see any signs of damage/denting when looking at the bracket or surrounding area.

[rick 918-S]

Here



And the more I look at it the more I see. This looks kinked too.

[rick 918-S]

Closest I get to Canada is Grand Portage.

[doug_b_928]

I had to look up Grand Portage (third biggest city in Manitoba is called Portage), that's going the opposite direction (closer to Thunder Bay which is about 8 hours from here IIRC).

That's a sharp and experienced eye you have. It seems obvious when you point them out but most of them I hadn't noticed. So how bad is it? Given my measurements in the pdf attached to the first post indicating that none of the major points are off, could I go ahead and do the rust repair on the longs etc., and then have the rear end straightened? That way I could see if I'm able to do the rust repair work to save $$.

[rick 918-S]

I had to look up Grand Portage (third biggest city in Manitoba is called Portage), that's going the opposite direction (closer to Thunder Bay which is about 8 hours from here IIRC).

That's a sharp and experienced eye you have. It seems obvious when you point them out but most of them I hadn't noticed. So how bad is it? Given my measurements in the pdf attached to the first post indicating that none of the major points are off, could I go ahead and do the rust repair on the longs etc., and then have the rear end straightened? That way I could see if I'm able to do the rust repair work to save $$.

Most of my claims are about a 1/2 from the border when I get up that way.

Ya. That's just typical collision repair stuff. Not to worry.

[doug_b_928]

Excellent, thanks Rick! What do you make of the bowing of the fenders at the front? Do you think complete fender replacement is needed?

[rick 918-S]

Excellent, thanks Rick! What do you make of the bowing of the fenders at the front? Do you think complete fender replacement is needed?

Unless you strip off the re-paint I wouldn't really know. could be tension could be back body work, As long as the chassis and upper body measurements check out the rest is cosmetic repair.

[doug_b_928]

Okay, thanks Rick. There is a lot of filler on the car. In the pics above you can see where I took a conditioning disk and die grinder to see if there was metal in those spots where the rear fenders bow and there actually wasn't too much filler right there (about 1/4" or more though on the back sides of the rear fenders!

One final quick question and then I'll stop bugging you...for a while (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif). As mentioned above, I adjusted the windshield flange to targa bar to 25 1/4" as per the guide. But I wonder whether that gap will narrow when the car gets put back together (when it had wheels and was on the ground the door gaps weren't too bad). I realize that the longs strengthened after rust repair should reduce the flex, but when you set the opening do you leave that opening a little wider to compensate for flex when it's on the ground, or do you set it right at 25 and 1/4". I'm guessing the latter but just wanted to make sure.

[rick 918-S]

H,I and Y need to be verified. Then F and X If you just adjust the windshield frame to meet F and X you will never get anything to fit correctly. It's easy to bend the windshield from to make F and x numbers work.

Set the chassis to make H, I and Y correct. Then check F and X then brace the car to hold these measurements while completing the repairs. If you watch the amount of stress you are introducing into the car by moving around and cooling the welds you should be fine.

[doug_b_928]

Okay, will do. Thank you so much!