KitCarlson, still fighting... Options

[McMark]

I'm still struggling to get my KitCarlson EMS running smoothly. It's a challenge when you're tuning FI and Ignition.

I read some threads on ShopTalk Forums where Jake recommends 12 degrees initial advance and 28 degrees full advance, all in at 3000 rpms.

So I dialed the ignition controls in to these figures. Checked the setting with a timing light and what's showing on the EMS monitor seems to match what's showing with the adjustable timing light. This is a wasted spark system and I've been ambiguously warned that a standard timing light "won't work" with a wasted spark system. This doesn't make sense to me though.

The first issue I need to deal with is that the car won't rev above 4000 rpms. When I first started setting this up I had the same issue and adding in advance cured the issue. I trust Jakes recommendation and so I'm looking for other sources of this issue.



Currently my logic tells me that if the system is too rich above 4000 rpms it would respond to more advance. Spark earlier gives the rich mixture more time to burn. I'll be playing around with this idea tomorrow, but I'd like to hear what'cha got to say.

[DNHunt]

Mark

Here's the timing map off of my MS injection. It is also wasted spark. I'm not sure what plug and gap you are using but I tried a bunch and ended up with the old standby Bosch W7CC and .028. The Ford EDIS system suggested platinum and a hugh gap but, that didn't work for me. I've read that there can be a problem with spark actually arcing allong the outside of the insulator if the gap is to big so check your boots for burn marks.

If it's too rich I would think your wideband O2 sensor would pick it up. Will it rev past 4G's with no load. If it doesn't, lean out that part of the table and see if it will. If that doesn't help I bet it's spark. Check to make sure the MAP sensor is working, I've left the vacuum line off before and it just won't rev. Either of the temp sensors not working and reading cold would give a rich mix but, you would see that throughout the whole fuel map.

Not much help I know.

Good luck

Dave

[davep]

Just a thought, does a wasted spark system give one spark per cylinder per revolution? That is, double the number of sparks as normal. If so, then the ignition is trying to run at 8000 rpm for a crankshaft 4000 rpm. In this case it could be that the ignition cannot deliver enough energy in such a short period. Your burn would be poor, and the exhaust should smell of unburnt gas.

[Jake Raby]

Mark,
The issue with Dave's system and ignition is that you may say 12 degrees on the screen, but thats only if the dizzy was installed at true TDC.

Dave had a special timing light that he had made for this that hooked into the ECU and allowed the setting to be 100% dialed in so 12 degrees really was 12.

My settings with the Kit Carlson actually were 14 degrees at idle at 1K RPM then the values went up progressively to a max of 32 degrees at 3400 RPM then I pulled timing away to 28 up to 4500 then it descended to 24 degrees above 5200 RPM.

The numbers of mine that you are going from were with engines that had a dizzy and did not allow the curve to be manipulated so precisely. I had to run 14 degrees at idle because the cam in my 912 engine was not FI plenum happy and lacked some vacuum signal below 1200 RPM so I found it necessary to give it some extra advance and lean out the low speed MAP to get it idling good.

Dave made me send my systems back to him, he didn't ask for yours back??

Basically, use the curve of settings that I mentioned but your values may be different because the engine is different than mine and you may not be at true TDC with the install of your dizzy- Give it what it wants.

[914werke]

QUOTE

Dave made me send my systems back to him, he didn't ask for yours back??

Jake are you at liberty to say why? Is Kit ceasing this project or just shelving it? (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/unsure.gif)

[McMark]

Dave's father is having some health problems. The project is on hold until those issue are resolved. Dave is firmly committed and passionate about finishing this project, it's just the timeline that's in flux.

I can't speak for why Dave requested Jake return his kits. And I don't know for sure why he let me keep mine. My unfounded explanation is that Dave knew that I have no other induction system for my engine and since he pulled the kits just before the WCC, I think he let me keep mine because it would have meant no 914 at the WCC for me. But I don't know for sure.

[MecGen]

Hi
I think the fellow Canuck Dave hit it on the nose.
Fords EDIS system is cyl specific, 4, 6, or 8. How did
you hook up the wires/sensors ? I would realy need a schematic, I worked at a Ford Dealer for almost 10 years.
PM me if you want me to have a look. I am sure I could help, or at least try.
Later
Joe

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/beerchug.gif)

[McMark]

It's a complete package. So there is no 4,6,8 option. It's not EDIS.

[Mark Henry]

QUOTE (davep @ May 21 2005, 11:00 AM)

Just a thought, does a wasted spark system give one spark per cylinder per revolution? That is, double the number of sparks as normal. If so, then the ignition is trying to run at 8000 rpm for a crankshaft 4000 rpm. In this case it could be that the ignition cannot deliver enough energy in such a short period. Your burn would be poor, and the exhaust should smell of unburnt gas.

Dave remember that wasted spark systems have a coil for every 2 cylinders, The wasted spark is of no issue.

Many of todays cars use a wasted spark system....just like batch fired injectors. My SDS uses both with no problems.

[anthony]

Mark, what happened? You're KC setup seemed to be running well a couple months ago at the BBQ we had at the shop.

[Mark Henry]

QUOTE (McMark @ May 21 2005, 01:03 AM)

This is a wasted spark system and I've been ambiguously warned that a standard timing light "won't work" with a wasted spark system.  This doesn't make sense to me though.

Mark

SDS instructions warn against using an adjustable timing light, if you do they say make sure it's on "0".

from the SDS manual

"NOTE: ADVANCE OR DIGITAL DELAY TIMING LIGHTS WILL NOT READ PROPERLY DUE TO THE WASTE SPARK, SO IT IS BEST TO USE A REGULAR INDUCTIVE LIGHT."


Also my WMS wideband manual warns against using a tailpipe extender for the sensor, as the exhaust is not hot enough after the muffler or cat.

[McMark]

Actually, it was odd. I was driving to lunch and all the numbers in the VE table disappeared. Everything else was fine, but those all went to 0. So I'm starting over. The car never really ran well. So it's good to go back to the beginning and start over. This time with all my gained knowledge. Slowly but surely I'm whipping this thing.

It's really hard for me to accept things without explaination. WHY doesn't an adjustable light work with wasted spark? (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/confused24.gif)

I'm not using the O2 sensor right now. I'm going out to try Jakes new #'s right now. I'll let you know how that feels.

[lapuwali]

I can understand why an adjustable timing light wouldn't work with wasted spark. On a four, there are only two coils, and each coil fires once per revolution, lighting BOTH plugs. However, one plug is on the exhaust stroke, so that spark is "wasted". This means the inductive sensor will see two firing events for each actual useful event on each plug wire.

On a non-adjustable unit, this is not a problem, as it will just fire 2x as often. It doesn't care how fast the engine is spinning. An adjustable unit, however, will delay the strobe firing based on TIME, yet the scale for the knob is in degrees, not time. This means it has to guess how fast the engine is spinning, and delay the strobe for a shorter amount of time as the engine speeds up, since each "degree" goes by faster as the engine goes faster.

On a normal distributor ignition, each plug wire only goes off once every other revolution, so calculating engine speed is easy. On wasted spark, it will go off once EVERY revolution, so the engine will appear to be going 2x faster than it really is, and the time/degree curve will be wrong. You'd either have to use 1/2 of the degrees on the scale, or 2x the degrees on the scale. My brain is hurting trying to figure out which.

[fiid]

QUOTE (lapuwali @ May 21 2005, 06:52 PM)

I can understand why an adjustable timing light wouldn't work with wasted spark. On a four, there are only two coils, and each coil fires once per revolution, lighting BOTH plugs. However, one plug is on the exhaust stroke, so that spark is "wasted". This means the inductive sensor will see two firing events for each actual useful event on each plug wire. On a non-adjustable unit, this is not a problem, as it will just fire 2x as often. It doesn't care how fast the engine is spinning. An adjustable unit, however, will delay the strobe firing based on TIME, yet the scale for the knob is in degrees, not time. This means it has to guess how fast the engine is spinning, and delay the strobe for a shorter amount of time as the engine speeds up, since each "degree" goes by faster as the engine goes faster. On a normal distributor ignition, each plug wire only goes off once every other revolution, so calculating engine speed is easy. On wasted spark, it will go off once EVERY revolution, so the engine will appear to be going 2x faster than it really is, and the time/degree curve will be wrong. You'd either have to use 1/2 of the degrees on the scale, or 2x the degrees on the scale. My brain is hurting trying to figure out which.

If you set the adjustable light to TDC or 0 degrees - it will work like an inductive light though - surely?

[McMark]

Yes, fiid.

I accept your explanation James. So if the frequency is greater in a wasted spark then 10 degrees will be some short amount of time. The higher the frequency the shorter amount of time 10 degrees is. If you want 10 degrees off 1/2 the frequency, you would double the offset to 20 degrees. That is probably not written very clearly. But makes sense in my head.

I'm out to try it now...

[McMark]

Well I just set it as described in my last post. 2x on the timing light adjustment knob. Still won't rev over 4k. Just sits there and backfires. This would be so much easier if I knew what I was doing... (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/wacko.gif)

[bd1308]

when i had my jeep, i randomly unplugged the MAP sensor to see how vital it is to the FI system....and it struggled and struggeled and went into limp mode, but did not rev over 4K rpm either.....seems liek a coincidence.

[Mark Henry]

How do you set the trigger "window" on the Kit system?

On the SDS you must first set the window (magnet position) in the program
Note that MAGNET POSITION and RPM IGN (timing) are totally separate parameters.

You set the idle timing in the computer to say 10 degrees, start the car, then use your timing light and adjust the "magnet position" window (in the programming) till your strobe is reading 10 degrees.
Once you have that set your ready to set your timing (RPM IGN) curve.

This is the SDS F3 crank trigger manual hope it helps.

http://sdsefi.com/fmanual.htm

[Mark Henry]

QUOTE

Actually, it was odd. I was driving to lunch and all the numbers in the VE table disappeared. Everything else was fine, but those all went to 0. So I'm starting over.

Did you move that coil pack away from your FI computer????

There is enough EMP coming off of your coils to screw with the CPU.
Wierd stuff, values disappearing, flashing, etc. almost all of the time is caused by coil EMP.
Get the coils at least 3 feet away from the CPU.

Trust me on this one bud!

[Mark Henry]

From the SDS manual

"Ignition Wires, and Interference Problems

Always use radio suppression type spark plug wires. NEVER use solid core wires. We recommend Magnecor or NGK. Try to mount the ECU as far from the ignition system as possible. Ignition interference problems usually show up as gibberish or strange symbology in the programmer screen. It is also not a good idea to route any of the SDS wiring near the ignition system. This is especially important on Hall sensor cables (E and F system)."