123Ignition Problem, No spark - Is it my wires? Options

[clapeza]

I've installed the 123Ignition distributor in my 1970 1.7 Djet, but I've got no spark. My car was running well enough before. I bought the Djet friendly distributor (4-R-V-IE) and a new Bosch Blue Coil during the group buy, but kept my (not so) old spark plug wires. When cranking, I get no attempt to start. I checked for spark by clipping my timing light lead on the #1 wire, but get no flash, suggesting no spark.

I installed the distributor per the instructions and the helpful hints from the group buy thread. Left the black wire off the coil to set the static timing. I saw the timing LED through one of the slots, as expected. I rotated it until it went off, then back until it just went on.

While rotating it, I got a mechanical solenoid sound ("BZZZzztt") from inside the distributor that lasted a second at most. No one has mentioned this previously, so I thought I would to make sure it's what everyone else has seen.

Connected the black wire to the coil, then attempted to crank it. All the usual noises are there for any attempted ignition, except no sounds like it's trying to fire. No catch, no backfire, etc.

My spark plug wires are Bosch Ultra-Premium 7mm Opti-Layer Copper Core. They're not that old, and are still in good shape. I've checked the boots and the connectors, making sure they're making good contact inside the cap. I know there was the option to buy new wires from 123Ignition, but I kept the old ones since they are in good shape; but are they not up to snuff for this distributor?

[914_teener]

So tell us why you would leave the ground wire off the distributor to set the timing?

[clapeza]

So tell us why you would leave the ground wire off the distributor to set the timing?

From the installation instructions:
9. Follow the appropriate wiring-diagram on the last two pages of the manual, but leave the black wire unconnected for now.

After setting the timing, you connect it back.

[914_teener]

That's interesting. I didn't bother using that portion (the LED light) of the dizzy to set static timing. Since I just replaced the dizzy in the same place, I just left the clamp a little loose and hooked all the electrical up and used a timing light to dial it in.

You are either getting spark or you aren't. Disconnect one of the leads, have somebody crank the engine and either ground a spare spark plug to the lead and make sure it is grounded or insert an appropriate sized screw driver into the lead to ground to see if there is spark.

If you heard the thing sizzle that is not good. Didn't hear anything like that when I installed it. It fired right up.

Good luck, I'd call the Manuf. for sure.

[BeatNavy]

You're sure the "buzzing" sound was inside the distributor and wasn't the fuel pump activating? I feel like I heard the fuel pump activate during this process, but I honestly can't explain why it would activate by turning the distributor. I can't remember all the conditions required for the fuel pump to run on D-Jet off hand. Maybe I'm making that up -- it's been a couple of months.

Seems to me like something simple may be out of place. I would verify that a) you've actually got the dizzy full inserted and the gears are engaging, and b) that the rotor and rotor cap are on correctly and tightly. You can do the former by moving the engine (e.g., using a drive wheel and blocking the other) to make sure rotor is actually moving. Check the latter to make sure the clips haven't been tweaked. You may have to bend them back so you get enough tension to keep the distributor cap on tightly.

[914_teener]

I really had to push down on the body to get it to seat in the dizzy drive cog. It could just have well not happened and now you need to start over to find TDC since the engine has spun since you installed it.

Start backwards at spark to the dizzy. Assuming your D-jet was running well before you installed it.

[914_teener]

You're sure the "buzzing" sound was inside the distributor and wasn't the fuel pump activating? I feel like I heard the fuel pump activate during this process, but I honestly can't explain why it would activate by turning the distributor. I can't remember all the conditions required for the fuel pump to run on D-Jet off hand. Maybe I'm making that up -- it's been a couple of months.

Seems to me like something simple may be out of place. I would verify that a) you've actually got the dizzy full inserted and the gears are engaging, and b) that the rotor and rotor cap are on correctly and tightly. You can do the former by moving the engine (e.g., using a drive wheel and blocking the other) to make sure rotor is actually moving. Check the latter to make sure the clips haven't been tweaked. You may have to bend them back so you get enough tension to keep the distributor cap on tightly.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)


What Rob said.

[clapeza]

You're sure the "buzzing" sound was inside the distributor and wasn't the fuel pump activating? I feel like I heard the fuel pump activate during this process, but I honestly can't explain why it would activate by turning the distributor. I can't remember all the conditions required for the fuel pump to run on D-Jet off hand. Maybe I'm making that up -- it's been a couple of months.

Seems to me like something simple may be out of place. I would verify that a) you've actually got the dizzy full inserted and the gears are engaging, and b) that the rotor and rotor cap are on correctly and tightly. You can do the former by moving the engine (e.g., using a drive wheel and blocking the other) to make sure rotor is actually moving. Check the latter to make sure the clips haven't been tweaked. You may have to bend them back so you get enough tension to keep the distributor cap on tightly.

Yep, I checked that it was fully seated and the rotor turns while turning the engine by hand or when cranking. The clips are properly seated and not tweaked.

I feel pretty certain the noise is coming from the distributor and not the fuel pump. As often as I heard the fuel pump energize while turning the key, I don't know that I've ever had my head in the engine compartment to hear it when it does. So that's something to investigate.

Yeah, I suspect there's something simple that's wrong, but I haven't been able to chase it down. Thanks for your suggestions. I'll keep looking.

[Morrie]

You're sure the "buzzing" sound was inside the distributor and wasn't the fuel pump activating? I feel like I heard the fuel pump activate during this process, but I honestly can't explain why it would activate by turning the distributor. I can't remember all the conditions required for the fuel pump to run on D-Jet off hand. Maybe I'm making that up -- it's been a couple of months.

Seems to me like something simple may be out of place. I would verify that a) you've actually got the dizzy full inserted and the gears are engaging, and b) that the rotor and rotor cap are on correctly and tightly. You can do the former by moving the engine (e.g., using a drive wheel and blocking the other) to make sure rotor is actually moving. Check the latter to make sure the clips haven't been tweaked. You may have to bend them back so you get enough tension to keep the distributor cap on tightly.

Hi Rob,

I think what you were hearing was the FI trigger points firing the injectors. As you run back and forth over that point where the light goes on and off, you can hear the injectors hiss. I think since you are physically moving the part and it corresponds to the noise, it gives us the mental impression it is emanating from the distributor, not just caused by it.

Thoughts?

[Morrie]

So tell us why you would leave the ground wire off the distributor to set the timing?

That isn't a ground wire in the conventional sense. It goes to the points, or in this case the electronic equivalent. When the rotor turns, the cam on the shaft closes the points, creating a ground path for the coil primary side. This collapses the field on the primary and the secondary side (its a little step up transformer inside) pulses the HV out the HV lead to the distributor which "distributes" the spark signal to the plug wire the rotor is pointing to. We disconnect it using the method in the instructions (the on board LED in the distributor) so that when the internal points close, we don't get high voltage running to the cap while it is off and your hands are in there?

Make sense?

[clapeza]

Hi Rob,

I think what you were hearing was the FI trigger points firing the injectors. As you run back and forth over that point where the light goes on and off, you can hear the injectors hiss. I think since you are physically moving the part and it corresponds to the noise, it gives us the mental impression it is emanating from the distributor, not just caused by it.

Thoughts?

This is a different sound from hearing the injectors fire. You can hear them fire by moving the throttle body arm (connected to the throttle cable) as a series of clicks from both sides of the engine. What I'm hearing is much louder.

[clapeza]

So tell us why you would leave the ground wire off the distributor to set the timing?

That isn't a ground wire in the conventional sense. It goes to the points, or in this case the electronic equivalent. When the rotor turns, the cam on the shaft closes the points, creating a ground path for the coil primary side. This collapses the field on the primary and the secondary side (its a little step up transformer inside) pulses the HV out the HV lead to the distributor which "distributes" the spark signal to the plug wire the rotor is pointing to. We disconnect it using the method in the instructions (the on board LED in the distributor) so that when the internal points close, we don't get high voltage running to the cap while it is off and your hands are in there?

Make sense?

That's what I was thinking.

[Morrie]

This is a different sound from hearing the injectors fire. You can hear them fire by moving the throttle body arm (connected to the throttle cable) as a series of clicks from both sides of the engine. What I'm hearing is much louder.

Go back to the beginning and determine if the green light is still working as before. There are no electromechanical parts inside this distributor, and it is the nature of electronics to be binary, either it works or its dead. If you still have the green LED, I would check for the obvious stuff like accidentally connecting the coil wire to the wrong side of the coil (ask me how I know) or even knocking off the positive lead to the coil or having a weak wire that broke when you were installing this.

If you want to test the coil, pull the high voltage wire going to the coil from the center tower on the cap and stick a screwdriver in there with the metal shaft close to ground. Now use a jumper wire and briefly short the negative side of the coil to chassis ground. You should see one single spark discharge from the coil, or one flash from your timing light if you can manage to get one on there. Just don't leave it shorted to ground, they tend to pull enough current to get warm.

[914_teener]

So tell us why you would leave the ground wire off the distributor to set the timing?

That isn't a ground wire in the conventional sense. It goes to the points, or in this case the electronic equivalent. When the rotor turns, the cam on the shaft closes the points, creating a ground path for the coil primary side. This collapses the field on the primary and the secondary side (its a little step up transformer inside) pulses the HV out the HV lead to the distributor which "distributes" the spark signal to the plug wire the rotor is pointing to. We disconnect it using the method in the instructions (the on board LED in the distributor) so that when the internal points close, we don't get high voltage running to the cap while it is off and your hands are in there?

Make sense?

Yes.....and it's not shocking...makes perfect sense.